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Tech Leaders Push Back Against Obama's Efforts To Divert Discussion From NSA
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Guardian reports that while President Obama tried to portray a meeting with tech leaders as a wide-ranging discussion of broader priorities including ways of improving the functionality of the troubled health insurance website Healthcare.gov, senior executives from Apple, Yahoo, Google, Comcast, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, and Netflix said they were determined to keep the discussion focused on the NSA. 'We are there to talk about the NSA,' said one executive who was briefed on the company's agenda before the event. After meeting Obama and vice president Joe Biden for two-and-a-half hours, the companies issued a one-line statement. 'We appreciated the opportunity to share directly with the president our principles on government surveillance that we released last week and we urge him to move aggressively on reform.' Many of the senior tech leaders had already made public their demand for sweeping surveillance reforms in an open letter that specifically called for a ban on the kind of bulk data collection that a federal judge ruled on Monday was probably unlawful. Obama seemed sympathetic to the idea of allowing more disclosure of government surveillance requests by technology companies, according to a tech industry official who was briefed on the meeting. Marissa Mayer brought up concerns about the potentially negative impact that could be caused if countries, such as Brazil, move forward with legislation that would require service providers to ensure that data belonging to a citizen of a certain country remain in the country it originates, the official said. That would require technology companies to build data centers in each country — a costly problem for American Internet companies. The decision by the tech giants to press their case in such a public and unified way poses a problem for the White House. The industry is an increasingly influential voice in Washington, a vital part of the US economy and many of its most successful leaders are prominent Democratic political donors."
Obama forgot who his bosses are.
Obama thought he has become the KING of the Americans.
Obama is but one of the civil servants whose salaries are being paid by the American taxpayers.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
He should do what a Republican would do: lower their taxes in exchange for silence.
Table-ized A.I.
yeah, not his fault -- they gave him the wrong teleprompter.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
countries, such as Brazil, move forward with legislation that would require service providers to ensure that data belonging to a citizen of a certain country remain in the country it originates
In other words, a cash grab. Brazil isn't the most enlightened country when it comes to spying, so this is a little "pot kettle black" situation, but really its just an excuse to try to force more companies to spend more money in Brazil. It has absolutely nothing to do with the feigned "outrage" the politicians are espousing.
Monstar L
He's another person attending the meeting, and he has his opinion about the meeting. The other 8 people attending the meeting agreed that his opinion was not their opinion. That indicates that he's probably bullshitting more than them.
Say what you will about America, but there's hope here yet. If Snowden is stock, most investors have not only stopped selling, he's fast becoming a savvy "Buy".
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Obama: "We are already aware of your concerns regarding surveillance. You don't think we didn't hear you muttering amongst yourselves beforehand, do you?"
Have gnu, will travel.
America'd never b destroyed frm d outside. If v falter & lose r freedoms it'll b becoz v destroyed rselves
Surely you don't expect anyone to take you seriously with this, do you?
He did not hijack your meeting.
They are not accusing him of hijacking the meeting. They are accusing him of spinning (or lying about) what happened in the meeting. I accept that Obama doesn't care much about the rights of the citizens, but he needs to understand that pervasive surveillance is also bad for business. When these companies move their data centers abroad, the jobs go with them. More and more people just don't want to do business with American tech companies. This is just as stupid as the encryption embargo that destroyed thousands of American jobs back in the 1990s.
Thank you Apple, Yahoo, Google, Comcast, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, and Netflix. You are our greatest ally!
The companies are concerned about US government surveillance ONLY because
they know it will cost them money.
Otherwise the companies don't care, because if they DID care they would have
raised hell long before now. But the companies did not do that, did they ? No,
in fact they were willing servants for the swine in the government until the revelations
Snowden caused caused their positions to become unpopular. SO now these
companies are setting new records for backpedaling performance. There is not
much if any moral difference between these companies and the Nazis who tried to
claim they were "just following orders" when they were on trial at Nuremberg.
As Vonnegut would have said if he were still around :
"So it goes".
.
Period.
Look, it's getting out of control.
Tech CEOs know that.
Only idiots in DC don't know that.
RESPECT THE CONSTITUTION!
P.S.: either that or let's hope an asteroid wipes out SCOTUS and Capitol Hill at the same time.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
It's a clear and unanimous sentiment. They now understand what they have to do very clearly to serve the needs of their people, their business, and their pals in the rest of the world. There are no mixed messages here. So where is the problem?
Twinstiq, game news
I've never voted in a presidential election, for exactly that reason.
Then you're even worse than the ones who vote for bad reasons, because you're giving their vote more weight.
Get off your ass and at least try to make a difference.
That they would speak to him like indicates they neither need to respect him nor do they.
I'm fine with that, he should be impeached.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
You'd never get invited back, and future legislation would likely be unfavorable to your bottom line.
It's disheartening that the ( insert epithet ) that are busy commoditizing our lives are perturbed by the ( other epithet ) that are spying on us. A pox on all their houses.
It is true and has always been that the best way to get the attention of large megacorporations, technological or otherwise, is to hit them in the pocketbook. Until Mr. Snowden came along, most of these tech companies willingly, some of them enthusiastically, cooperated with the government spies who were going to pay them considerable amounts of money. Phone companies even set aside special rooms and equipment to facilitate the spy agencies desires to scarf up terabytes of data. Now that all this has come to light, these tech giants stand to lose a fortune as others who do not wish to be spied on take their business elsewhere. How will common ordinary people ever know whether big government and big business are NOT under the same blanket, telling monstrous lies whenever it suits their agendas? Thank you Mr. Snowden!
A sufficiently advanced simulation is indistinguishable from reality.
Sometimes it seems rare that personal rights and business interests intersect- but that is happening here.
The NSA activities are really harming the credibility of the federal government and that will hurt everybody where it matters- the pocketbook.
Of course the other 8 are the same ppl that are busily mining your data, scanning your harddrive, issuing DMCA takedowns, lobbying for H1Bs to pay low wages to, and filling your screens with advertising that they use to track your browsing!
but he needs to understand that pervasive surveillance is also bad for business.
No, getting caught is bad for business. Some of the ways that cooperation and collaboration is rewarded (e.g. trade secrets) are quite good for business, which is why nobody made a stink about this before these revelations became public.
but he needs to understand that pervasive surveillance is also bad for business.German coalition favors German-owned or open source software, aims to lock NSA out
There's no shortage of people willing to point that out. Having said that though, there could be some great benefits to us ordinary people if it encourages government adoption of open source and local products.
Germany’s new coalition government listed open source software among its IT policy priorities, and said it will take steps to protect its citizens against espionage threats from the NSA and other foreign intelligence agencies.
Coalition parties CDU, CSU and SPD signed up to the plans Monday in Berlin.
The new government’s goal is to keep core technologies, including IT security, process and enterprise software, cryptography and machine-to-machine communication on proprietary technology platforms and production lines in Germany or in Europe, according to the coalition agreement.
But the government will also promote the use and development of open platforms and open source software as an alternative to closed proprietary systems, and will support the use of those in Europe, the parties said in the agreement. The public sector will need to consider open source solutions as a possibility when purchasing new IT, they said.
They also want to compete on a global level with “software made in Germany” and strengthen the quality of security, data protection, design and usability by doing so
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2081140/german-coalition-favors-germanowned-or-open-source-software-aims-to-lock-nsa-out.html
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Imagine if you were able to post a link to this discussion here on slashdot from that dim and distant time of 2008 during the election with unforgeable timestamps showing that it indeed was a slashdot discussion from late 2013..
What a shift in a lot of people's viewpoint has happened.
Just after the election in 2008, I said that the level of expectation surrounding Obama was so great Superman couldn't have lived up to it. I'll revise that now, and say God couldn't have lived up to it.
I wasn't a supporter of Obama, but it probably would have mattered less than most think who won that election. My guess is that the world situation wouldn't be radically different (might be a little better, might be a little worse), and definitely the case of NSA surveillance wouldn't be all that different. It's the result of policy decisions over the last, at least, 50 years.
We've been shown once again a truth that we seem to forget every 4-8 years in the "irrational exuberance" of campaigns.
National political leaders (presidents, prime ministers, whatever) are amazingly limited in what they really can do. The existing policies, public perceptions, politics and geopolitical realities massively constrain their options for what decisions to make.
Those offices are bully pulpits, as Teddy Roosevelt said, and sometimes can move nations with the preaching.
But, in the end, it's still limited. (And you don't want to live in places where they do have largely unlimited power.)
And, when those leaders fail to live up to what is expected (often unreasonably) by those who elected them, the backlash can be ferocious.
Witness this discussion (or some of the ones while W. was in office here on slashdot).
Nobody thought Nixon was in any danger of being removed until the house passed articles and the rubber met the road. How do you know what the Senate will do? If the Republican controlled house feels that this is a high crime, they should do their constitutional duty and impeach him. If the senate doesn't go for it then they can answer to the voters.
The real truth is that Republicans in the house are just fine with this, they just want it to be a Republican president who holds the keys to the turn key totalitarian state. All this about the senate is just misdirection so that you will vote for a Republican senator. The truth is that, when faced with a clear impeachable offense, it is the Republican Party that is refusing to act. Stop going on about the Senate and start insisting that the house vote to impeach.
The bottom line is "the tech industry" mines and sells your data (i.e., "every little thing you do"), so in order to keep their bottom line growing "the tech industry" must get the NSA's ability to mine for terrorist activity stopped before the American people force their (not "their" as in "the American people's", but "their" as in "the tech industry's") Representatives and Senators to again prioritize their Constitutional responsibilities above their bought-and-paid-for promises and outlaw all data mining as the invasion of privacy that it is.
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
What I find fascinating is how the media had us believe that the man was elected because his campaign was the "modern" one, the one that had whole of the Internet dialed in, total control over and support of social media, and everything tech and hip on its side. And yet that same organization can't get a website running properly, particularly one that people don't get to use but have to use. And that same organization wants to deflect criticism and blame for the NSA's current methods.
But why is he spying on my grandma?
You normally put just factories in countries other than your own. Cisco's proposing to put development in Canada, which is unheard of. Sun and IBM used to have some limited development here when developers in California couldn't be had for love or money, but that's mostly gone by now.
davecb@spamcop.net
Re So what would happen?
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130927/14413024680/one-telco-exec-who-resisted-nsa-has-been-released-4-years-jail.shtml
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Well, she could be storing illegal nuclear weapons in her basement ...
He did not hijack your meeting. It was always his. Get over yourself.
"If I'm here and you're here, doesn't that make it our time?" -- Jeff Spicoli
If anyone needs to get over himself it is the President. He is not a dictator. If he wants the support of the people he needs to listen to the people. If he wants the support of industry he needs to listen to industry. The people and industry are not here to do his bidding. He works for us.
"
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
" - Rush, Freewill
As President he deserves respect, nothing more. Everything else he has to earn. We should politely disagree and politely avoid our agenda being blown off in a meeting, but we do not have to move off of our agenda at a meeting because he wishes it so.
If the tech industry's #1 concern is NSA overreach then they are correct to stay on that topic until satisfied with the President's response. The tech industry is not obligated to fix his healthcare IT and personal PR problems.
Are you going to claim you had no hand in putting him there?
Actually, no. Why would we need to make claims when it's a well known fact that we did not.
He did not hijack your meeting. It was always his. Get over yourself.
Wrong, the President is to serve the people. It's not about what he wants, it's about what the people want.
The President might be in charge, but it's only because he was voted in. His responsibility is to the citizens of the USA, not to himself.
Be seeing you...
He allowed his "signature legislation" to be gutted ...
How did he allow **his** signature legislation to be gutted? **He** never offered any legislation. He mentioned some broad guidelines during the campaign and immediately upon election turned it over to the Democratic Party leadership who immediately grabbed Democratic party supporters and lobbyists and went into the back rooms to draft the legislation in private. He immediately abandoned his leadership on the issue.
He did not hijack your meeting. It was always his. Get over yourself.
It's not his government. It never was his. It belongs to the citizens. The man that you're defending has gone against the constitution and the will of the people. Get over yourself. Bush and Obama have made a mockery of the constitution. Both parties are trampling our rights and everyone seems to overlook their own party's evils while they're ready to attack the other with pitchforks and torches.
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
Ahh yes, good old US B$ A, it not was it actually is, it is all about what it looks like. Lie, cheat, steal and kill, all cool as long as a solid layer of bullshit covers it all. Get exposed for what is actually going on, what everyone is actually up too and all hell breaks lose, until more bullshit can be generated to cover it all up again.
I can assure you lying, cheating, stealing and killing is bad for everyone (except of course for the psychopaths doing it, they are having a great old time), whether or not the truth is exposed and they finally get caught and if there is any real semblance of justice, actually publicly prosecuted and penalised.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
When these companies move their data centers abroad, the jobs go with them.
[Citation Needed]
Modern data centers don't actually generate very many jobs.
After the initial flurry of construction jobs, Apple's $1 billion+ data center in Nevada is going to result in...
200 contractor positions and 35 full time jobs.
35 full time jobs
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Voting election is like bidding in a slave auction.
Any form of participation in the event gives it legitimacy it doesn't deserve.
Nope.
Not voting reveals the system for what it is: violence concealed by the division of labor.
Voting in an election is as moral as bidding in a slave auction. In both cases participation gives both processes the illusion of legitimacy they do not deserve.
This comment is complete and utter bullshit, which harms people suffering from real racist issues. I do understand that you learned this from people paid to distribute propaganda, and perhaps you are just "one of those people".
Obama is no different than Bush, who was no different than Clinton, who was no different from Bush, etc... Each of these people had no care for US Citizens in general, just their buddies followed by themselves. Those are verifiable facts based on actions these people took, not because of what they said. Nothing is racist by pointing out that they are failing in their duties as representatives of "The People".
Thanks for playing "I'm an idiot!", you win the game!
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
This President has never been in charge of anything.
Voting in the United States is, indeed, heavily broken. You should still vote. Just don't vote for a Democrat or Republican.
Sure sign that Slashdot isn't running enough space stories. The space nutter troll is posting in other stories now due to loss of his natural habitat.
Vote even if it kills you. Then vote exclusively Democrat.
he needs to understand that pervasive surveillance is also bad for business.
What makes you think he has a choice? I mean, it's not like we have the kind of robust system in place that would effectively prevent blackmail of political leaders.
Nope.
Not voting reveals the system for what it is: violence concealed by the division of labor.
Voting in an election is as moral as bidding in a slave auction. In both cases participation gives both processes the illusion of legitimacy they do not deserve.
And by not voting you're electing not to be a slave just to the system, but also a slave to everyone around you. You think you've made some point. You have not. You've only surrendered the little power you have to take none at all.
And you've done so voluntarily, which is the real kicker. You think you're standing up to anyone? People who don't vote is exactly what corruption wants. You've voluntarily given up your rights to those you claim to stand up against. And you don't even realize you're playing right into their game.
He is. That's the arithmetic of elections. Whoever wins the majority of the votes, wins. As "nobody" is no one, the next in line is the winner, however weak his number of votes compared with "nobody" is. It's not a poll to measure the amount of cultural or political pessimism. It's a presidental election. The goal of the presidential election is to have a president.
Voting election is like bidding in a slave auction.
Any form of participation in the event gives it legitimacy it doesn't deserve.
What do you suggest as an alternative?
Modern data centers don't actually generate very many jobs.
After the initial flurry of construction jobs, Apple's $1 billion+ data center in Nevada is going to result in...
200 contractor positions and 35 full time jobs.
35 full time jobs
That is not 35, but 235. A contractor gig is still a job for somebody. And why don't the initial construction jobs count? They aren't permanent, but are still paychecks for six or eight months for a lot of people. And what about the people that build the servers? Do you really think American servers are going to populate the data center in Brazil? And what about the people that work in the power plant, the people that build the AC units, etc.
Leave the farm
Actually a number of election systems have RON - re-open nominations.
If RON "wins" then the election has to be rerun
What if the 100,000,000 voted for neither DEM nor REP? There are other parties in the US, if you don't like the status quo, stop voting for the status quo.
Heard a quote from the meeting or a comment on it in the radio (sadly, they did not specify the source): "It is not just the constitution that is at stake here, but a whole lot of money."
Nice priorities, guys. You certainly know how to make the president listen.
Not voting means opting out of democracy altogether. Just don't complain later when they execute you because you called out great noble king "*LOUSY*". The current affair in the US is despicable, I must agree. Go vote, but vote for something other then DEM or REP.
Obama spent all his time negotiating with right-wing Democrats like Nelson and Lincoln, and Republicans like Grassley and Snowe. Not with Harkin or Kennedy, a long-time supporter of Single Payer. Obama also killed the public option in a deal with the for-profit hospital lobby, kept single payer off the table even as a point of negotiation, and made the same backroom deal with the same lobbyist that he attacked in the 2008 campaign. And every public statement in support of a public option was accompanied by a statement praising amendments that would gut it (like Snowe's trigger). His OFA did jack and squat to demand a PO, and finally Obama press-ganged liberals like Kucinich into passing Romneycare via reconciliation, after spending a year insisting that 60 votes were needed to pass a PO.
Obama showed all kinds of leadership on betraying his own campaign promises. You could describe pretty much his entire presidency that way.
No, I checked. All the nukes in my grandma's basement are legal!
I'm much more funny, interesting and insightful than the moderators think
The NSA surveillance is the serious damaging problem for business. And not only for the US companies. The usage of the cloud SaS, say, the Google Apps for Business could be very profitable for a company, but the internal opposition is bringing in the data security issue. The say, - first the company data gets into hands of a rogue government official, then later it could be sold to a competitor.
However, moving data centers to patriarchal countries could be even worse. The data centers would be periodically stopped by government officials to check sanitary conditions (as a pretext).
All the servers could be taken out by trucks to check for an illegal content. The employees of the data centers would be hired via nepotism system, so up-time would be not great.
The US officials are not perfect, but at least they could be called reasonable. In patriarchal societies the cloud computing model, the data centers, would not work at all. We would be obliged to switch to the silos model of desktop documents once again.
Not making a decision is still making a decision.
No, it isn't.
Filthy, filthy copyrapists!
The point is - till Snowden nobody (except tin foil hat nut cases) cared because for an average Joe that is already too complicated to understand that when he sends a message to Jane the message does not automagically teleports between their mobiles but is routed trough a massive infrastructure complex enough to make even a genius to get a headache while attempting to see trough. Now the big players around the world noticed while Joe still does not give a shit. But the CEOs of big IT firms do notice and do see their cash flow jeopardized - they would not complain otherwise. This means to me that the pain must be really big and cash flow problems really hurt. Which is good. It is a mistake to think that citizens (well organized militia is just a joke) can do something on their own in direct opposition to the government. Only if they are supported by big money in some form they can succeed. It seems big money has noticed. It is a sad state of affairs but it is better than if they all were happy working with NSA. I suppose maybe the cooperation of industry with nutcases in 1930s is still clearly visible for the better educated among us. I prefer to see it this way as this give us a glimmer of hope for the future.
That is not 35, but 235. A contractor gig is still a job for somebody. And why don't the initial construction jobs count? They aren't permanent, but are still paychecks for six or eight months for a lot of people.
Most of the contractor jobs are maintenance/security.
I.E. Low paying and not exactly full time.
The local/state governments are handing out tens of millions worth of tax breaks spanning a 10 year period.
The benefits from construction are short term and essentially meaningless over that time scale.
The reality is that there aren't (m)any other non-infrastructure commercial projects that can cost over a billion dollars and generate fewer direct and indirect jobs than a data center.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2007/10/nsa-asked-for-p/
"NSA Domestic Surveillance Began 7 Months Before 9/11, Convicted Qwest CEO Claims"
Links to the trial http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/files/512.pdf
"...made inquiry as to whether a warrant or other legal process had been secured in support of that request. When he learned that no such authority had been granted and that there was a disinclination on the part of the authorities to use any legal process, including the Special Court which had been established to handle such matters, Mr. Nacchio concluded that these requests violated the privacy requirements of the Telecommunications Act."
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
amen brother...besides the marketing they are both almost identical entities.
never bring a twinkie to a food fight.
Uh, no. Voting in an election is not like bidding in a slave auction.
Our elected representatives may be shitty representatives, and they may shift positions on issues like a pair of 19-year-olds having sex, but "slave" seems to me to be an extremely inapt analogy (feel free to comment on my own poor analogy).
You have a vested interest in voting for the least crappy candidate (or best candidate, if one exists) in each election you have the opportunity to vote in. Not doing that (or simply not caring enough to know which candidates are potentially crappier than others) leaves us all with the shitty representatives we have now.
Perhaps a resurgence of mandatory civics classes would help maintain a reasonably sane electorate...perhaps not...but giving up on it all or throwing away the current system is not the solution to the problem.
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
Here, i'll give you a job with zero guaranteed hours. Now you can put that on your resume.
When the other parties stop running complete lunatics as candidates, I'll consider it.
The problem is not that the government isn't telling us that they were fucking us in the ass, at least not after Snowden anyway. The problem is that we don't want to be fucked in the ass at all. We wrote you a note letting you know that over 230 years ago and for the first ~200 years you were somewhat good about honoring those wishes, but lately you've been coming home drunk on power and having your way with us without our consent. Letting us know how you're going to violate us isn't enough - it's time for you to stop violating us altogether.
To play the devil's advocate here there does seem to be considerable evidence that voting makes very little, if not zero, difference. Voting for the "least crappy" candidate still leaves you with crap. Plus now they have all that support in the form of votes.
Voting means you accept the outcome as legitimate. So don't complain later when they execute you, even if you voted against them, because that is how your nation wanted it.
Perhaps they use the soap box. The ballot box is useless to anyone whom thinks the system is completely broken until there is a candidate that will attempt the fix the system. The only way to get that is to use the soap box to try and spread awareness of the problem and support for a solution.
Except the decision is only between 2 parties because people like you believe it. There are a number of other options out there
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Voting is basically your only responsibility in a Democracy.
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
Actualy to me it seems like letting the slaves choose which foreman beats them when they are tied to the whipping-post.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
Please pray tell what could possible be bad enough to blackmail the President who's administration has been a constant string of scandals; would rape, drug dealing, murder be enough? Obama is making Nixon look like a choir-boy.
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
So that's why Ron Paul never wins!
Citation needed, I think...
"Murphy was an optimist" - O'Toole's commentary on Murphy's Law
Has that agency you work for quit pulling this kind of shit?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Those other candidates are not more looney than the ones in the mainstream parties it is just they tell you all the stupid shit they want to do instead of blow smoke up your ass. At least with the 3rd parties you can make an informed vote based off of what they say.
Time to offend someone
The politicians never stopped themselves from passing unconstitutional laws seeking to weaken or outright exempt the Constitution. Every attempt has to be met with strong public pressure and in recent generations that pressure has weakened either by ineptitude or the indirect assault on democracy by wealthy institutions.
Free assembly is just as strongly protected as free speech but the public does not defend it so local city councils routinely trounce that right and the "security state" along with that unconstitutional century-old espionage act has done quite a bit against free speech and free press.
The 4th is obvious to anybody but a lawyer that it does not allow copying of your personal papers, then allowing them to later be easily accessed and if something bad is found a retroactive warrant can be issued... The reason juries are made up of peers is because of the belief in common sense over "lawyer-think" which has nothing to do with truth, honest logic, or science.
Any government would run longer, better, if lawyers were barred from serving in office. Their profession is to justify the means for their client's ends. Engineers, scientists, professors - they are the problem solvers.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
No, they're still blowing smoke. The stuff they really want to do is just way more stupid than they admit.