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Tesla Says Garage Fire Not Charger's Fault; Firemen Less Sure
cartechboy writes "It looks like Elon Musk and Tesla Motors find themselves in another PR war over the cause of a fire involving a Tesla Model S. Authorities in Irvine, CA are currently investigating the reason for a fire in a garage that, yes, contained a Tesla Model S. While the actual cause of the fire remains unknown, Tesla Motors and the Orange County Fire Authority are already publicly disputing possible causes, thought to center around the Tesla charging system. Tesla says the fire was not caused by any part of the car nor its charging system, reports Reuters. For what its worth — we've seen a version of this movie before. In 2011, investigators determined that a garage fire that destroyed a Chevrolet Volt had started away from the car, later spreading to engulf and destroy the car."
This is where Musk's Hubris is going to be a problem.
There's no way that he can know for sure what happened in the fire, and he's going to risk having to eat crow -- lots and lots of crow -- if he's proven wrong.
I love the guy, but hubris is clearly among his worst qualities.
My educated guess is oily or gas soaked rags that were not disposed of or stored properly.
Garage fires aren't a very common topic on Slashdot.
cool
Am going to guess it was faulting wire of the building that caused the fire. Not Tesla fault but the electrician or possible old wiring.
Or someone realized they couldn't make their car payments.
Ah, the old "Hey, I don't know what this is, so it must be the cause of the fire" argument.
Of course fire investigators will point to a piece of new technology as the cause of the fire. It's easy and they are lazy. Just like videogames are the cause of all school shootings.
And before that, it was cell phones causing brain cancer,
And before that it was rock and roll music causing children to misbehave.
If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
Even if it is the charger it may be the wiring not the device itself. A friend had an attic fire that was caused by a hallway smoke detector (AC powered) of all things. The fire investigator determined the smoke detector was wired incorrectly.
"garage fire started by improperly installed electrical outlet" just doesn't get you as many clicks.
The garage fire was Nov 15, the Tesla S did not sustain any damage. The damage was all on the wall socket side.
Cars that contain tanks full of highly flammable liquid fuel with explosive vapors catch on fire all the fucking time and nobody blinks an eye.
Ever instance of a brush fire near an EV and suddenly it's national news.
Where there's smoke there's (Tesla) fires.
"The fire occurred as a result of an electrical failure in the charging system for an electric vehicle," said a report by the fire authority, a copy of which was obtained by Reuters.
The report also emphasizes that the cause of the fire is unclear.
No. Them (Tesla company) stating/admitting that the fire COULD have been caused by the Battery Charger would have been actual news.
Them blanket declaring it wasnt is standard Lawyers/Management Told Us To stuff.
I talked to a fireman years ago about these issues with electric cars and he said they all were worried about various aspects they would have to deal with when they became more common - electric shock potential, energy density (the stuff is like an explosive), new toxic chemicals in large amounts, etc..
Not to worry Im sure insurance companies will love putting up their rates for these vehicles as their problems become more commonly understood (yet another thing the advocates wont be telling you).
My educated guess is oily or gas soaked rags that were not disposed of or stored properly.
You could very well be right. After all, the Orange county fire investigators probably never have seen a garage fire before and being amateurs, just blamed the new fangled ee-leck-trick car thingy.
While filling up your car with gasoline you *can* just let it fill and walk away to do something else. Most people I see hang around or go sit in their car. If something maybe might go wrong there's plenty of people and support to see it, report it and deal with it.
With an electric car, well there's a bunch of power transfer going on which takes a long time and no one is going to sit around watching and waiting. Extra stress to your house's electrical system,s no one around to keep an eye on it because it's not practical, what could go wrong?
These cause more fires than anything elseExcept gasoline powered vehicles.
Several hundred thousand car fires occur per year, but they don't make the news.
My car my car my car is on fire,
My car my car my car is on fire,
We don't need no water let the motherfucker burn,
Burn motherfucker, burn.
If the cable was damaged at the wall side but not the car side, my immediate thought is a problem in the wall socket or wiring. I've run into that with regular outlets, old hardware causes high resistance and a very hot outlet and plug (thermal conduction through the metal parts). The most common cause is age causing corrosion of the connection plates inside the socket or looseness of the plates so the prongs of the plug don't make good tight contact with them. Either way it raises the resistance of the connection inside the socket and creates a lot of heat (it's doing exactly what the heating elements on an electric stove do). My fix is to open up the outlet and replace the socket with a new one, cleaning up and tightening the wires in the process.
The #2 problem is the actual in-wall wiring being old and just not up to gauge for the current draw of modern electronics. In 1970 we didn't have home computers and Xboxes and the like, 14-gauge wiring was common and hooking up a modern home-entertainment center and computer would have the wiring in the wall hot to the touch. Plug a Tesla into older wiring like that and you've got a fire waiting to happen.
Just in case, garages can be made fireproof. Encase the garage interior by screwing on 'Durock' type cement board to the walls. A decent DYI project. Tape the seams with special tape and a cement paste, just like is done with wooden chimney chases. Cars, electric and gas, have ignited in the garage then the house goes. A sizable extra expense, worth the peace of mind.
This is why you don't use an aftermarket charger!
Better not bring a Tesla along when you retire on Mars, you ridiculous buffoon. Oh wait, there's no air on Mars to feed a fire anyways. Hm.
It's a win-win strategy.
1. Deny it all before the crazies run amok with unchallenged media coverage of the fire.
2. If wrong, eh, it happens. Apologize, deliver an update, and good will. No one will hate him for it. Just business as usual.
3. If he's right, or it's ambiguous as to what happened, he wins.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
Down in Texas, they put a man to death (Cameron Todd Willingham) because they were sure he committed arson and killed his kids. Forensic scientists later showed the fire marshal to be wrong using....science. I'd rather trust scientists to tell me what happened than some firefighter that just lasted on the job long enough to be the investigator or kissed enough butt.
A war over public opinion. I don't know why the struggling U.S. automakers have not embraced electric vehicles. They will make a "zombie" truck which everyone thinks is funny, but nobody actually wants. But tend to be disposed to doing everything in their power to resist that which is (probably) better for the environment and more efficient for a good portion of the population commuting just a few miles every day. Did they learn nothing from the Nissan Leaf sales?
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
Thank Goodness Tesla is distracting Fox News. We Volt owners thought their nonsense barrage would never let up. At least Tesla has Musk to fire back pithy retorts.
1 Dachshund + 1 Dachshunds = A Paradox.
We don't have Jerry Reed to make a new song for all these fancy new eee-lectric autymobiles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jOMcAlO7rQ
That I'm right, and you don't like it, doesn't mean I'm a troll.
Its not like they had a famous actor die in one of their cars recently.... or anyone
NEC requires derating circuits with continuous loads to 80% of their breaker value, so a 15A circuit can only provide 12A on a continuous basis (which by NEC definition is more than 3 hours).
If Tesla takes more than 12A for more than 3 hours, then by law it cannot be charged from a standard home wall socket, which is a 14AWG branch circuit rated for 15A at the breaker.
If Tesla overlooked this requirement and put a 15A plug on their charging cable, then they are liable for any damage caused by their improper cable plug selection and lack of warnings.
FTA, the car owner said she set "the timer" to start charging at midnight. Where is this timer, in the car or on the charger connection? Maybe she is using one of those $4 light timers. Does anyone know if the Tesla can turn on its own charging system at some designated time? For that matter, how does the Tesla know what time it is? The fire department might be familiar with historic causes of fires, but (1) hardly any fireman knows anything about electricity as such, and (2) they could scarcely know anything about garage fires associated with electric cars, since so far we only know of somewhere in the vicinity of one happening.
If it's Tesla, it's news.
Those who followed the MANY years of Ford ignition system and later cruise control switch fires might notice a double standard.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/27/automobiles/27FORD.html?_r=0&gwh=376B79D2A392CB21E4879B859797FE30&gwt=pay
"Fordâ(TM)s response to the fires â" first refusing to acknowledge that the switches posed a fire hazard, then conducting four recalls over seven years â" angered fire victims and consumer advocates. It does not hurt their cases that Ford was accused of dragging its feet in other high-profile recalls.
âoeItâ(TM)s a cultural issue within Ford Motor Company,â said Rob Ammons, a Houston lawyer who is suing Ford on behalf of an Iowa man, Earl Mohlis, whose wife, Dolly, died after their home caught fire. The lawsuit claims the manâ(TM)s 1996 Ford F-150 pickup caught fire in the garage. The blaze spread to the house, killing Mrs. Mohlis. âoeItâ(TM)s the same exact pattern,â Mr. Ammons said. âoeYou saw it with the Pinto. You saw it with the ignition fires a decade ago. You saw it with Firestone. And you see it here.â
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Oh man, that's a brilliant idea. Who's with me on this? Let's take out loans. Buy some Teslas, short some stocks, and set our garages on fire!!
Pickup trucks did catch fire in the garages. The cruise control stayed live when the car was off. Some rubber part could get a hole in it. Gas would leak through onto the live circuit causing a fire. There were sever pretty burned out garage pictures during that time. It didn't make a big splash because no one got hurt.
Ugh. People did die in the house fires. Sorry for the error.
You want one like linseed oil that will heat up via chemical reaction.
Not just this.
1) The rag was left out in the sun.
2) There's no temperature gauge, so you can't tell if it's 0F or 110F.
3) There's some kind of unnatural glare going on. It could just be the rag is soaked with so much oil that it's outright reflecting the sunlight, but not knowing how the rag was prepared, I wonder if there's something say, concentrating the sunlight.
While spontaneous combustion is pretty cool to see, the reliabilty of this video is questionable.
The flash point of rosewood oil according to MSDS is 184F, so clearly the rag must have reached that temperature one way or another.
U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 152,300 automobile fires per year in 2006-2010. These fires caused an average of 209 civilian deaths, 764 civilian injuries, and $536 million in direct property damage. [...] On average, 17 automobile fires were reported per hour. These fires killed an average of four people every week.
http://www.nfpa.org/safety-information/for-consumers/vehicles
U.S. Vehicle Fire Trends and Patterns (pdf)
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
You think we'd hear about more of those...
He will pay someone else
Just as your employers did you?
You have to remember that the news likes to report 'news', IE unusual events. If car fires are frequent enough to not be news, but aren't so high as to trigger a 'trend' type news program, then you don't see them.
Tesla vehicles are distinctive, new, unusual, and thus more newsworthy. We hear pretty much every event with one.
I don't read AC A human right
why don't they just install an automatic fire extinguisher. problem solved, and bonus points for being innovative.
"The incident caused up to $25,000 of damage, though the Model S itself sustained only light smoke damage. Nobody in the house was injured."
How could the fire start in the car and yet cause "only light smoke damage" to the car but $25,000 of other damage?
I'm not a fire expert, but I play one on the intertubes.
If the source of the fire was the car, it should be first thing consumed by the fire.
I say "No lock Shershit"
I ain't no rocket surgeon, but this smells of BS bigtime.
The wall socket was NOT sufficiently wired for 240 volts and overheated, igniting the cardboard boxes stored nearby, Put a big load on an electric sircuit with small wires, and guess what, it overheats!! That's why we have electric codes to specify the wire composition and size!
I've seen the real wiring goofup on a real U.S., GM car, 71 Chevelle or something like that, that caught fire just parked and turned off. The guy used doorbell wire on his alternater that should have been at least 1/4 inch thick copper, (maybe not properly grounded, I don't know, I only play an electrical engineeer on the Intertubes). The wire just went over and barely touched the radiater hose because it had to snake through. Its the big one that comes off your battery and goes to the alternater, the one thats normally a quarter inch thick. It melted through the radiator hose, letting the water drain out, and then ignited the rubber of the radiater hose. Bet you never saw that in the news. Somebody had walked by and hollered "Your car's on fire!" and we ran over and sure enough, the smoke was pouring out.
One data point is valueless on constituting risk.
But this makes a bogeyman of those hippie green cars, so you'll just blather ahead with paranoid delusion.
Aluminum is fine to use where:
1. There is not much flex -- this is why Generators disallow it, vibration can crack it - spiking resistance -- adding heat and causing a fire hazard.
2. There is plenty of room for the wires to be connected and have a galvanic corrosion protection measure --- most often a protective grease. Failure to use proper protection against galvanic corrosion between copper and aluminum can cause corrosion, increased resistance, and -- you guessed it, a fire hazard.
They got crazy with using aluminum everywhere without proper protection, and created fire hazards galore, but Aluminum wiring, used properly, and with the right protections can be perfectly safe. Is copper simpler? - Yes -- but people will generally size copper closer to the minimum required size than aluminum. So it's possible for a run to a shed someone would use copper with a 3% drop and expected maximum load, but if you run aluminum, size up enough to have a 1% drop at max load and pay approximately the same amount, or still pay less. Your master electrician may be a great guy, but sometimes you can do a safer run with aluminum if you have to meet a budget.
I'm wiring up a smoke detector in my garage. Smoke detectors aren't often found in garages due to the false positives they sound off on - because of car exhausts. I have an Plug in Electric Hybrid, and this guy has a Tesla. Perfect for a Nest Protect. No exhaust to trigger false positives.
Joseph Elwell.
Tesla has poorly designed charge connections that are known for over heating, causing fires and causing injuries. A firefighter was injured responding to the Tesla related garage fire. Allegedly a Tesla owner was burned on the hand and arm pulling off overheated and burning charge connector. Many of these poorly designed Tesla connections have overheated and failed. They are known for melting. Greedy people are covering up these problems.
The way Tesla has designed its charge connectors, is likely to put undue stress and possibly cause wall outlets to fail. Their adapter acts as a lever to increase the force on an outlet, so someone pulling on the cord, the weight of the module, and anyone tripping or tuging on the cord, the force is multiplied. The typical configuration as many connections close together which concentrates the heat and increases the odds of a bad connection and increases the odds of a fire.
The Tesla software update is just a Band-Aid. There still is an underlying issue of bad Tesla hardware/electrical connections. All electric automotive manufactures need to be more careful about engineering designs, manufacturing and addressing safety complaints/criticisms of batteries and charging systems. These problems need to be nipped in the bud now, before the potential safety hazards can multiply.
There is no shortage of greedy people that want to pretend there is no safety hazard in Tesla automobiles. It is unwise to place a lightly armored automotive battery so close to the road. It is unwise to run so many amps through such light and poorly designed charger connections. Tesla cars are on video burning and exploding. Many Tesla charger connection problems have been documented.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15304-Plug-Adapter-on-my-Universal-Mobile-Connector-has-melted
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/18092-Schmelted-UMC-NEMA-14-50
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/23212-Scary-issue-with-Nema-14-50-adapter-melting
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/25444-Melted-Charging-Adapter-Cord
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15304-Plug-Adapter-on-my-Universal-Mobile-Connector-has-melted?p=316665&viewfull=1#post316665
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/15304-Plug-Adapter-on-my-Universal-Mobile-Connector-has-melted/page7
http://insideevs.com/tesla-mode-s-garage-fire-official-incident-report/