DHS Turns To Unpaid Interns For Nation's Cyber Security

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

DHS Turns To Unpaid Interns For Nation's Cyber Security

Posted by Soulskill on Friday December 20, 2013 @06:14AM from the probably-still-an-upgrade dept.

theodp writes "A week after President Obama stressed the importance of computer science to America, the Department of Homeland Security put out a call for 100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students to work for nothing on the nation's cyber security. The unpaid internship program, DHS notes, is the realization of recommendations (PDF) from the Homeland Security Advisory Council's Task Force on CyberSkills, which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, the NSF, and the NSA. 'Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career?' reads the job posting for Secretary's Honors Program Cyber Student Volunteers (salary: $0.00-$0.00). 'If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling.' Student volunteers, DHS adds, will begin in spring 2014 and participate throughout the summer. Get your applications in by January 3, kids!"

48 of 174 comments (clear)

Min score:

Reason:

Sort:

Stick with what works... by pubwvj · 2013-12-20 06:15 · Score: 4, Funny

Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
1. Re:Stick with what works... by cayenne8 · 2013-12-20 06:22 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
  If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
  If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
  It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
  And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
2. Re:Stick with what works... by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:36 · Score: 3
  
  Why in the hell would you have a limited time internship that requires a secret level clearance that will probably take the UNPAID intern months to get?
  
  Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.
3. Re:Stick with what works... by demachina · 2013-12-20 07:01 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  Civil servants are frequently working for the chance to retire after 30 years, with a life time pension, and the ability to start a new career in the private sector, often exploiting their government connections, and working for the contractors they once managed. This is often refered to as double dipping. If you do military, civil service and then private sector its triple dipping. There salaries may not be great but their life time payout is actually really good. Life time pensions are increasingly rare in the private sectors because they are staggeringly expensive with people increasingly living to be a 100.
  If you actually compare private sector versus civil service salaries, civil service salaries are starting to outpace the private sector in many fields. This is partially a product of private sector salaries being stagnant in many fields for decades.
  Certainly Wall Street banker and hedge fund manager out performs civil service. In the case of SEC civil servents they are usually there to do favors for the big banks and brokers they are supposed to be regulating and then they cash in the favors for high paying job with the people they used to regulate. There is a similar revolving door in just about every Federal agency. And yes it is also known as corruption.
  
  --
  @de_machina
4. Re:Stick with what works... by NatasRevol · 2013-12-20 07:21 · Score: 2
  
  They're not government employees. Their checks come from larger corporations.
  
  --
  There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
5. Re:Stick with what works... by Obfuscant · 2013-12-20 07:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
  Harry Truman. When he ended his 2nd term, all he had was his old WW1 Army pension to fall back on.
  This contains an interesting summary of Truman's salary history.
  
  In 1921 Truman's salary was probably close to nothing. He was living in debt and trying to keep his failing business open.
  In 1922 he was elected Missouri's Jackson County judge and was paid $3,465.00 per year.
  In 1925 Truman lost reelection and took a job selling AAA automobile club memberships for $15.00 each...
  In 1926 he was elected as the presiding judge and was paid $6,000.00 per year.
  In 1934 Truman was elected senator and made $10,000.00 a year.
  In 1944 he was chosen to be the Roosevelt's third vice-president. His salary jumped to $20,000.00 per year.
  In 1945 ... Truman became the President of the United States. His salary was $75,000.00 and then increased $100,000.00 a year
  In 1954 he sold the rights to his biography for $600,000.00 which would be paid over 5 years, and in 1958 Congress passed a law to retroactively provide former presidents a pension of $25,000.00 a year.
  So, he went into public service making about zero, starting with a judicial position at $3465 a year. He left the Presidency and started a military pension at $13500 a year. He then picked up another $25k a year retroactively starting in 1954.
  I'd say going from zero to $38k a year is not leaving public service poorer than he started. It's not the lavish pensions pols get today, but it's still not poorer.
  As for political donations for personal use, the same source reports:
  
  He continued paying down the debt, even while the Great Depression was occurring, until 1934 when a political supporter bought his debt allowed him to pay it off for $1,000.00.
  
  So, a political supporter donated a huge sum by buying the existing debt on the new Senator's failed clothing store and letting him pay it off cheap.
6. Re:Stick with what works... by iamgnat · 2013-12-20 08:17 · Score: 3, Interesting
  
  Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
  If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
  If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
  It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
  And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.
  All true, but at least we'd be paying the Fed employee less to screw us over. I did a stint as a DoD contractor and was paid a little more than twice what a Fed doing the same work (in the same group) was getting paid. And I was getting about a quarter of what was going to my contracting company for the position. Hell, given that math I'd be more worried about disgruntled Feds than contractors
7. Re:Stick with what works... by volxdragon · 2013-12-20 09:08 · Score: 5, Informative
  
  Federal civil service workes haven't had a pension in decades - CSRS was closed to new government workers in 1987, all they get now is FERS which really is no different than any other 401(k). The days of the government pension are pretty much dead (unless you're a congress critter that is).
There's a disconnect here by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:16 · Score: 5, Insightful

"...100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students.."
"..to work for nothing"
Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.
1. Re:There's a disconnect here by ganjadude · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 2
  
  well hey, it will put people back to work right? I mean who cares if they arent getting paid as long as people are working!
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
2. Re:There's a disconnect here by Anubis+IV · 2013-12-20 06:56 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Exactly. What they're demonstrating here is the difference between saying "We're serious about fixing the problem" and "We're serious about fixing the problem and have allocated resources to demonstrate that". Promises of changes like these are worthless unless they're backed up with a budget, personnel, or infrastructure.
3. Re:There's a disconnect here by TWiTfan · 2013-12-20 07:13 · Score: 2
  
  But they get a "meaningful and rewarding career," that is, if you define "meaningful" to mean "unpaid" and "rewarding" to mean "dead-end."
  
  --
  The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
Well worth it! by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 5, Funny

$0 is a great price for being shunned by your peers for the rest of your life.
Evil Plot by jythie · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 5, Insightful

Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.

I know that they are not intended that way, but it is one of the side issues with the 'internship' culture, they tend to be a step based off how much cash you have that can have major effects on your long term career options.
1. Re:Evil Plot by realmolo · 2013-12-20 06:30 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  That's exactly what this is.
  The position requires a security clearance, for God's sake! This is an internship for the children of congressman and other highly-placed public officials (and, of course, children of big donors to the Republican and/or Democratic parties). Nothing will get accomplished, but a lot of rich kids will get to put it on their resume.
2. Re:Evil Plot by whoever57 · 2013-12-20 07:08 · Score: 2
  
  Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.
  I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less wealth for all (including the wealthy) over time.
  
  --
  The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
3. Re:Evil Plot by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:29 · Score: 2
  
  Sometimes I wonder if unpaid internships are just part of a sinister plot to keep the class divide as large as possible. In college I knew lots of really bright people who had to skip internships because they had to do things like work so they could pay for school and, well, eat.
  I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less wealth for all (including the wealthy) over time.
  A quick glance at history suggests a shorter lifespan for those at the top of the wealth distribution curve. Shorter by a head, that is...
  
  --
  Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
What happened to minimum wage? by BoRegardless · 2013-12-20 06:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
1. Re:What happened to minimum wage? by hawguy · 2013-12-20 07:51 · Score: 2
  
  Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
  States have caught on to this (though probably not fully altruistically since they lose out on taxes from these unpaid workers), but it's nice to see that the federal government doesn't mind exploiting workers for no pay. Why should they pay when the workers will do it for free - besides, this work benefits everyone. Seems like a good move for government - don't pay workers, but give them all of the essentials that they need to live. They could even use a catchy slogan "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".
  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all
Re:FP by flonker · 2013-12-20 06:23 · Score: 2
The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
- The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction;
- The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
- The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;
- The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;
- The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
- The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States
Security clearances??? by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

I would have thought anyone working in this area would need security clearance - which can take quite a while to get. How is that effort going to make sense (or be done in time) for spring/summer 2014 temporary work?
Also relevants... by phoenix03 · 2013-12-20 06:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

This position requires a Security Clearance of SECRET. SO, let me get this straight. Unpaid, FULL TIME, college age, best and brightest... with access to secret level items...

Nevermind. This is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?
Simple reason they are unpaid by SuperKendall · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

It ensures only the ideologically pure will come to work for them.

--
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Reminds Me Of... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:28 · Score: 5, Funny

...during the Clinton years, but before the Monica Lewinski scandal where government would place ads in newspapers and certain periodicals asking for interns. The ads mentioned something along the lines of "gain experience under the nation's leaders". After the Monica scandal, this bit of wording was changed.
The REAL job by Akratist · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 4, Funny

"hey...wait...this looks like the Obamacare website..."
C-c-c-combo breaker! by gmuslera · 2013-12-20 06:29 · Score: 2

Not only you help spy on your family and friends, help to demolish remaining US freedoms, but also you get not paid for that! How you can refuse that great deal?
It's definitely a problem here by MikeRT · 2013-12-20 06:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

DHS is clustered heavily in DC and the areas immediately outside of DC within the beltway. The cost of moving to this area just to work could easily add $10k-$12k in debt or lost savings for just a single summer. This is simply not an internship that makes sense for any student who comes from a family lacking real wealth.
Sounds like a career killer to me by erroneus · 2013-12-20 06:40 · Score: 5, Interesting

Put that experience on a resume and you're likely to see more rejections than you would expect normally. There was a time when "government job" meant something but now it means something else entirely to a growing number of people and businesses out there. Things are getting polarized. Working and living in the DC area showed me exactly how polarized they are even 3-4 years ago.
Don't worry about the government shutting down by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:41 · Score: 2, Funny

They don't get paid! It's the biggest safety mechanism that the government has left.
So let me get this straight... by Zephyn · 2013-12-20 06:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

You want to offer a bunch of impressionable young people, most of whom are accumulating large amounts of debt, the opportunity to learn as much as they can about the computer security infrastructure of the country. While they do this, we're not paying them a cent or giving them any guarantees regarding future employment, further increasing their financial insecurity in the present and the future, as well as exploiting whatever sense of loyalty they might feel for their country for the purpose of reducing government labor costs.
What could possibly go wrong?
"secret" doesn't mean "secret" anymore. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-20 06:54 · Score: 2, Informative

It has been diluted into what was called "sensitive but unclassified".
In most cases, you have to have "secret" just to get past the guard house.
When I started, the order was "unclassified","classified", "secret", "top secret", with variations within those categories. Nowdays unclassified means unemployed :), classified means its an official document... But to get on base you have to have a "secret" or "top secret" clearance. For DHS, it means than secret is needed to get past the front door.
The other reason for the dilution is that whoever the person talks to will likely have a higher clearance... And even though they will be doing what used to be unclassified work, they need secret just because their office made/monitor will have secret talks that could be overheard. Not to mention seeing whats on a desk...
Comment removed by account_deleted · 2013-12-20 06:57 · Score: 2

Comment removed based on user account deletion
Something on the resume of than classwork ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 06:58 · Score: 3, Insightful

"...100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students.."
"..to work for nothing"
Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.
They are college students. They get course credit for things like this, each quarter/semester is the equivalent of an elective class. That has a monetary value.

Plus a key to getting hired is to have something on your resume other than your degree and its assigned coursework/projects. So it has monetary value in that regard too. Its not terribly different than voluntarily contributing to a FOSS project, well other than HR departments probably consider DHS experience and references more valuable.

Thirdly, if you want to work for DHS this gets your foot in the door. In governmental bureaucracies like this knowing someone inside and/or having an insider reference is quite valuable. Works in corporations too. I think the newly announced General Motors CEO started at GM as an intern when she was in college.

That said, I am not against paid internships. I am merely pointing out that as a student even an unpaid internship can have a value.
1. Re:Something on the resume of than classwork ... by LurkerXXX · 2013-12-20 08:05 · Score: 2
  
  Unpaid internships are little better than no internship.
  http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/do-unpaid-internships-lead-to-jobs-not-for-college-students/276959/
Is this a Labor Law violation? by peterofoz · 2013-12-20 07:04 · Score: 4, Informative

If they're displacing regular employees or they derive immediate advantage from the activities of the intern...
6 Legal Requirements For Unpaid Internship Programs
Politician cheer success at reducing unemployment by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:07 · Score: 3, Informative

well hey, it will put people back to work right? I mean who cares if they arent getting paid as long as people are working!
You are not far off. When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.
Get your security clearance before graduation ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why in the hell would you have a limited time internship that requires a secret level clearance that will probably take the UNPAID intern months to get? Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.
Because it gets you that security clearance before graduation. When you and your peers begin applying for jobs after graduation you have an advantage, you already have security clearance.
Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell by Cornwallis · 2013-12-20 07:16 · Score: 4, Insightful

"which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, the NSF, and the NSA."
Aren't these chuckleheads a good representation of all that is evil and corrupt and driving Team USA into the ground?
Government doesn't live by its own rules ... by perpenso · 2013-12-20 07:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Didn't they just recently pass laws/regulations pretty much banning unpaid internship for most private businesses???
Since when does government have to live by the rules it imposes on individuals and business? Exempting itself is a common practice.
Re:FP by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:25 · Score: 2
The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
- The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction;
- The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
- The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation;
- The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded;
- The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and
- The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States
The 'trainees' WILL replace 'regular employees' and the employer DOES receive an immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees. That was the whole point of this, wasn't it? NOT to train up the next gen of cyberwarriors, but to put them in place to DO SHIT.

The big tech companies write their job descriptions these days to where they 'can't' find Americans trained 'well enough' to fill them, thus, they NEED H1Bs to fill the slots that they 'can't find any American to fill'. H1Bs work cheaper, and besides, you have a stranglehold on them because they're not citizens. The only thing cheaper than an H1B for an employer is an UNPAID INTERN. We should be surprised that the government would take this advice from the big tech corps?
--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Hmmm by jamstar7 · 2013-12-20 07:31 · Score: 2

From each according to his ability...
Marxist.
New Testament, actually.

--
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by matfud · 2013-12-20 07:42 · Score: 2

I don't know how it works in the US. In the UK a security clearence is bound to your employer. Getting a new job involves transfering it.
Mind you getting a SC is easier if you have had one previously.
Re:Politician cheer success at reducing unemployme by Obfuscant · 2013-12-20 07:51 · Score: 3, Informative

When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.
That's better than "go from good manufacturing job to no job to running out of unemployment insurance to giving up looking" which also counts as a success at reducing unemployment numbers.
Best Intern I can think of by Antique+Geekmeister · 2013-12-20 07:57 · Score: 2

I hear Edward Snowden is looking for a job.
Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . by parkinglot777 · 2013-12-20 08:28 · Score: 3, Funny

If you want to know about security clearance in the US, you can check it at http://www.state.gov/m/ds/clearances/c10978.htm
For the cost of getting security clearance, you who is an employee would not be paying but your employer. I believe the cost is varied depended on case by case. http://news.clearancejobs.com/2011/08/07/how-much-does-it-really-cost-to-get-a-security-clearance/ gives some idea about how much but it is 2 years old...
The value the USA puts on security by dutchwhizzman · 2013-12-20 08:35 · Score: 2

Well there you have it. The USA government finds security so important they are willing to spend the grand sum of $0 on it. They could have some pretty good consultants if they'd pay $100/hour
The interns they really want, easily get a decent pay for their skills in a lot of computer companies. Anyone willing to work for $0 will have ulterior motives to do so. Either they are so unskilled that even operating a cash register at a fast food restaurant at minimum wages is too difficult for them, or someone else is paying them to go do the work.
If the government didn't want to be regulating prices and wages and income of their citizens, they would put out a bid and have the lowest qualifying bidders do the job. Now they are pushing the market by forcing the price to zero.
I don't know who came up with this plan, but they really must hate their country and it's citizens a lot.

--
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
Re:FP by parkinglot777 · 2013-12-20 08:51 · Score: 2

Interesting enough, the content quoted from wikipedia is a little bit different from the actual document -- www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf Don't know why they have to change certain words in the content...
You get what you pay for. by lophophore · 2013-12-20 09:16 · Score: 2

The best and the brightest are going to shiny big companies that will pay them well for their internships. We've all heard the stories about compensation of interns at Google, Facebook, and Microsoft.
Further, in the post-Snowden world, I doubt many idealistic young computer scientists want *anything* to do with the feds "cyber"-anything.
The DHS will get bottom-of-barrel "talent" -- if any at all.

--
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't