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Former CIA/NSA Head: NSA Is "Infinitely" Weaker As a Result of Snowden's Leaks
An anonymous reader writes "The Huffington Post reports, 'Michael Hayden, former director of the National Security Agency, said Sunday that he used to describe leaker Edward Snowden as a "defector," ... "I think there's an English word that describes selling American secrets to another government, and I do think it's treason," Hayden said ... Some members of Congress have also ... accused him of an act of treason. Hayden said his view of Snowden has grown harsher in recent weeks after reports that Snowden is seeking asylum in Germany and Brazil in exchange for assisting their investigations into NSA programs. Hayden said the NSA is "infinitely" weaker as a result of Snowden's leaks. "This is the most serious hemorrhaging of American secrets in the history of American espionage," he said. "What Snowden is revealing ... is the plumbing," he added later. "He's revealing how we acquire this information. It will take years, if not decades, for us to return to the position that we had prior to his disclosures."' — More in the Face the Nation video and transcript, including discussion of the recent legal decisions, and segments with whistleblower Thomas Drake, Snowden legal adviser Jesselyn Radack, and Washington Post reporter Barton Gellman who recently interviewed Snowden."
GOOD!
We were caught abusing the rights of the American people and the people's of many other nations. Now that we've been caught people won't trust us anymore. Fell so sorry for us!
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. - Hunter S. Thompson
...and celebrate the long-term crippling of an evil agency.
Let's also lament the fact that Snowden won't be able to return to the country he helped so much.
Unfortunately so is most of the government and the courts.
Treason is working against one's country. So the NSA has been the treasonous one.
Still waiting for the first shred of proof that the NSA's dragnet methods do any good whatsoever. Until then: nothing of value was lost.
That's funny, I consider "treating every citizen of your country as an enemy and a criminal" as treason, Mr. Hayden.
... illegal and un-Constitutional activity and I do think it is "criminal" and "un-American" respectively.
My thoughts on this are simple. It is in us, the people who live in the USA's best interest that this leak happened. Plain and simple the NSA has been running wild with a total disregard to the constitution. I personally want to see the NSA disbanded as they will never be taken seriously again by america, and they will never be trusted again by the rest of the world.
Now as for doing damage that is in regards to other countries, I think the way snowden went about things was actually the best way he could have given the circumstances. He did not just dump the files, unredacted for the entire world to see and learn from. The articles and information that up until this point been released have been screened pretty well to protect numerous secrets.
From my point of view yes Id love to see all the data, unredacted but I underrstand that would have been a disaster for a number of reasons, one of those reasons being the concern of the people who are anti snowden, they are making the argument as if the entire treasure was dumped. but it wasnt so their argument doesnt hold water. The other reason, and the oneI am more concerned with is that if he dumped it all at once, it would be much easier for our no attention span having population to forget about it and move on to the new shiny of the day, and all of that information would be for nothing.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
If Snowden would have voiced his concerns to his immediate supervisors, he would have been silenced immediately.
"This is the most serious haemorrhaging of American secrets in the history of American espionage," he said. "What Snowden is revealing ... is the plumbing,"
Worse than when Soviet intelligence penetrated the Manhattan project at every level that mattered thus enabling Stalin to take a multi year shortcut to building his own bomb? I mean let's not over dramatise this, the ability to steal airplane sales from Airbus and hand them to Boeing, to steal IP from foreign companies and donate them to US competitors, blackmail foreign politicians, etc..., may be important but an A-bomb can vaporise a city along with millions of it's inhabitants.
I'm not sure that this isn't true.
The question is whether there's anything wrong with that.
Were the NSA meant to be doing the things that they're doing? To some degree, yes. But I'm also pretty sure they've overstepped what they're allowed to do.
The "treason" comments are pretty far off. Someone who's committing an act of treason is doing it to benefit themselves or another country. Seeing as he had to flee his life in the US and is between countries, risking imprisonment if he ever comes back, aside from the fame he's accrued, I'm not sure how this is to his benefit.
Luckily for the NSA, the guardian hasn't said anything about specific operations or people involved. The releases have been about methods and reach, which aren't the same. The only surprises there are that the NSA was more active than most people thought.
There's nothing in there that's mind-glowingly unbelievable, like the NSA hooked up some kind of transmitter to an eyeball and has been using that realtime video feed to monitor meetings.
Of course, there are a few more million documents, but I'm sure the really juicy ones are being withheld.
If they had not been abusing their power to conduct illegal surveillance then Snowden may not have resorted to this. Perhaps then their techniques would have remained secret and been available for legitimate purposes. Perhaps they should be looking in the mirror when placing the blame.
"I think there's an English word that describes selling American secrets to another government, and I do think it's treason," Hayden said.
Well, not if the revelations are about illegal - and especially unconstitutional - behavior.
What we don't see in the Snowden revelations is any scrap of value derived from the NSA's blatant power-grab. As I understand it, the essence of NSA's defense is "but...TERRORISTS!", yet they have failed to produce any results that come even close to justifying their extraordinary usurpation of power. Even if the NSA could demonstrate real value in the data they've stolen, they would still have to justify their process for taking it from us. Last I knew, the constitution does not state "the ends justify the means".
Sounds to me like Hayden's just afraid that he'd be subject to arrest and prosecution if he visits wherever Snowden lands. If he'd only done nothing wrong, he'd have had nothing to hide, and nothing to fear punishment for if caught. Perhaps he shoulda thought of that sooner. Sure, someone else would have done the job if he'd quit instead of following orders, but at least he'd be guiltless (or less guilty). There's a certain irony that Hayden could be a criminal in a land where Snowden could be free -- although I doubt either one will happen.
I am not a crackpot.
If he had been "selling American secrets to another government", as the idiot Hayden said, and if it had been an enemy government, then it would be treason. Of course, that's not what he did at all - he made the information public. But Hayden's "let's mischaracterize it a bit" is a typical propaganda techniques, and will probably help convince people who are ignorant of the facts.
BTW, in this day and age, how is it determined what's an enemy government? In the bad old days of the Cold War, it was clear to everyone that the USSR was an enemy. How about China though? They're not an enemy, and I hope they never become one, but we all know it's a concern. Will we, for example, convict GE execs for giving them jet engine technology if it's ever used to attack our forces?
At this point, I think we'd be better off if the NSA's efficacy were reduced to zero (infinitely weaker: 1/x -> 0). Then we could rebuild it from the ground up with proper political, legal, and operational controls.
In fact, I suspect that the NSA retains most--if not all--of its operational capabilities.
The NSA doesn't face any significant legal restrictions. The law allows them to do most of what they want, and they just do the rest anyway, secure in the knowledge that the courts won't(?) can't(?) shut them down.
The NSA does have a political problem right now. It's not much of a political problem: most of the political establishment wants them to keep doing what they are doing. They wouldn't have any political problem at all if their P.R. weren't so inept. Hayden yammering about "defectors" and "treason" and "infinite weakness" is just more P.R.
Before the leaks, they could say "it stops the turrurists", but after the leaks we know that it's stopped none (Boston is a prime example). Any half serious terrorist knows that the internet is heavily monitored and communicates covertly; now that it's public knowledge, the "but the turrurists will know our abilities" defense no longer carries weight. They can't justify using their overreaching surveillance apparatus against the general population of the world anymore. It's their defense to continue Orwellian surveillance that is infinitely weaker, nothing else has changed.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
– Benjamin Franklin, 1759
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
" It will take years, if not decades, for us to return to the position that we had prior to his disclosures."
First, if someone (NSA) breaks the laws of the country and gets caught, wouldn't the expectation be that they stop doing that?
This statement indicates that the NSA doesn't get it. The expectation is that they will continue with the surveillance
state as planned.
Second to that, no one from the government has actually taken this statement to task. This indicates
that it will be business as usual for the NSA and CIA no matter what the laws of the land are.
Finally, the lack of actual caring from all quarters about this would indicate that all the elected representatives
in government are on board, no matter what their bobbing heads say on T.V. . Apparently the law doesn't apply to employees
of the state since no one fom the NSA has been arrested or fired.
Nothing bad could result from a crippled intelligence system, could it?
Sure. Bad things could happen. Hayden, and others -- including US Presidents and members of Congress -- should have thought of that before putting the system in jeopardy by committing illegal acts that might result in them getting caught when someone finally blew the whistle.
If I robbed a bank, got caught, tried and imprisoned, my family would suffer. But that suffering would be the result of my bad decision, not the legal system that frowns on robbery, the police tracking me down and catching me, and the judge and jury who convict and incarcerate me.
I am not a crackpot.
this is what the republicans are all pissed off about. the gave them away for free, he didn't sell anything.
clearly, he's a socialist commie pinko bastard.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
He's revealing how we unconstitutionally acquire this information.
Fixed that for him.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
He made a *huge* sacrifice for *our* benefit, and I hope he eventually gets recognized for it.
It's increasingly clear that Snowden is being "handled" though. We shouldn't overlook the fact that he is a prime target for exploitation, by the Russians, by whoever ends up with him. If he does indeed go to Germany and help them defeat NSA spying in that country, well then the treason label fits.
I don't have any problem with Snowden revealing mass surveillance on American citizens to American citizens, but spying on foreign governments is what the NSA is supposed to do. Yes, even our allies, and yes, even for economic reasons (most spying is economic in nature, and every ally spies on every ally). Snowden's reveal of spying on foreign governments and leaders, and any methods to do so, does cross a definite line. That does actually harm the US diplomatically, harms US businesses, and harms those American citizens Snowden claims to support. Snowden may be a naive idealist in over his head, or he may have been "turned" by those who are currently surrounding him.
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
Snowden is a hero for revealing secrets that need revealing. He is a villain for revealing more than necessary. He is brave for essentially throwing his life away. He is a coward for not being willing to accept all of the legal consequences for his actions.*
With a treasure trove of tell-alls as big as Snowden's allegedly is, I doubt he's had the time to sort out the things our government is doing that are generally likely to be considered by Americans and American allies as immoral or against our own Constitution from those that aren't.
There is no doubt that American owes Snowden a debt of gratitude for shining light on activities which are likely to have at least 4 of 9 Supreme Court justices ruling them unconstitutional, should a relevant case ever reach their docket, as well as many other activities which, while clearly constitutional, are generally regarded as things a civilized government simply should not do, at least not outside of times of war, invasion, or rebellion.
However, the odds are high that not all of the secrets he leaked are those kinds of secrets.
To the extent that Snowden is leaking secrets of things that Americans would NOT generally consider immoral or unconstitutional AND, (for things that affect other countries or their citizens) things which those other countries not only find immoral but which they themselves do not do, Snowden should've kept his mouth shut.
Perhaps the United States Government should take a page from the Doctor Who television episode "Tooth and Claw"** and give Snowden a medal for releasing the secrets that show American was acting immorally and/or unconstitutionally, then charge him with treason for releasing secrets whose release expose anything that needed the disinfecting light of sunshine cast upon it. Maybe they will let him wear his medal and write his (classified, until Washington says otherwise) memoirs while he serves his time in Club Fed???
*The hallmark of an honorable person engaged in civil disobedience (or insurrection, treason, etc.) is their willingness to accept the full legal consequences to themselves for any actions they take on behalf of "the people."
**In the episode, Queen Victoria knights The Doctor and his companion then banishes them both. This episode is also part of the back-story for the spin-off series Torchwood.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
To people like Hayden "the public" **is** the enemy. They're actively at war against them.
"Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
I'm an American, and I consider him to be a hero.
But then, I use the word 'our' to be inclusive of humankind, not some subsection thereof.
Nothing is so black and white. He may have revealed some things that will help Americans understand what policy changes need to be made, but he's also revealing information about operations the NSA is supposed to be doing, and now there's talk of him helping foreign governments in exchange for asylum. I'd say that makes him a naive idealist, at best.
-mrxak
Onions Will Kill You
If they are infinitely weaker, then by the math of the infinite, they must have been infinitely powerful which is not what they should be. And since they are STILL doing the things they have been doing with no indication that they have stopped or slowed down in any way, they must STILL be infinitely powewrful.
Where an organization like that exists, we are all in danger.
So far, there's no evidence that the NSA was doing anything of value. Sure, in theory they have a mission which might possibly be valuable were it focused the right way, maybe. Maybe. But half their mission - making info security better for Americans - is now permanently destroyed. No one in crypto circles will ever trust the NSA again: they burned that bridge and lost their ability to give back to the public sector.
So all that's left to the NSA is SIGINT, and that's have proven worthless for asymmetric threats. Yes, it would be good to have SIGINT the next time a major nation goes to war, but at this point I'd rather it wasn't the NSA doing that. Let the NSA die, and the legitimate SIGINT role can pass on to military intelligence or some other group with no motivation to spy on US citizens, or steal secrets from foreign companies to share with US companies.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You are a fool. The traitors are the ones calling him a traitor. How we ever supposed to stop the NSA if no one tells on them? Make no mistake the NSA is a huge threat to Liberty in this country.
Good-bye
But they aren't just spying on foreign governments, they are spying on the citizenry EN MASSE. That is far beyond the NSAs mandate. Spying is a dishonorable and destructive force, i dont buy the argument that we HAVE to do it. We choose to.
Good-bye
Well then Hayden et all should have considered that before they decided to shit where they eat!
It is nothing more or less than the NSA's decision to act unconstitutionally that caused this.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I.e., what every NSA official except Snowden has either committed or abetted, because allegiance to the United States means allegiance to its Constitution and its people, not allegiance to the bureaucracy, the President, or Congress.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
don't have any problem with Snowden revealing mass surveillance on American citizens to American citizens, but spying on foreign governments is what the NSA is supposed to do. Yes, even our allies, and yes, even for economic reasons (most spying is economic in nature, and every ally spies on every ally).
Spying on your allies is a way to make them no longer your allies. Its as likely to drive them into other camps as it is to keep them your allies. Brazil is increasingly becoming disaffected with the US. How many more Venezuela's do we need in South America?
Spying on Germany and Brazil heads of state is pointless excess.
Your assertion that most spying is economic in nature is disingenuous.
Economic spying is useless for government. Most industrial spying may be economic in nature, but it is not performed by government agents. but rather by private interests. (Unless of course you accept the Chinese government's model of state sponsored industrial espionage as a legitimate model for the US to follow).
Who should receive the putative fruits of economic spying by the government? Private companies? Which ones? In exchange for what? Paid to who? How has that been working out for us?
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
There is no talk about him helping governements. Germany looked into him as a witness for their own inept situation.
Sure, if you call that 'helping a foreign country' then I hope he does not help an old lady cross the street, because that would be helping mother Russia.
The issue is that the NSA gave him a reason to do what he did. If they would have done nothing illegal, then there would have not been an issue.
The US people were dressed in ignorance and the NSA decided to rape the people because they were asking for it? Never blame the raped. Always blame the raper.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
and now there's talk of him helping foreign governments in exchange for asylum.
There's "talk", from the NSA itself. How very reliable.
And the talk is about him helping Germany. You know, one of your closest allies? Maybe not pissing off your allies should have been a little bit higher on the list of priorities, and this might not have been an issue right now?