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200 Dolphins Await Slaughter In Japan's Taiji Cove

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "CNN reports that more than 200 bottlenose dolphins remain penned in a cove by Japanese fishermen, many of them stressed and bloodied from their attempts to escape before fishermen start to slaughter them for meat. Until now, the fishermen have focused on selecting dolphins to be sold into captivity at marine parks and aquariums in Japan and overseas as twenty-five dolphins, including a rare albino calf, were taken on Saturday 'to a lifetime of imprisonment,' and another 12 on Sunday. 'Many of the 200+ Bottlenose dolphins who are in still the cove are visibly bloody & injured from their attempts to escape the killers,' one update says. Although the hunting of dolphins is widely condemned in the west, Japanese defend the practice as a local custom — and say it is no different to the slaughter of other animals for meat. The Wakayama Prefecture, where Taiji is located condemns the criticism as biased and unfair to the fishermen. 'Taiji dolphin fishermen are just conducting a legal fishing activity in their traditional way in full accordance with regulations and rules under the supervision of both the national and the prefectural governments. Therefore, we believe there are no reasons to criticize the Taiji dolphin fishery.' Meanwhile the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society describes how about 40 to 60 local fishermen work with nets to divide up the pod, whose initial numbers were estimated by the group at more than 250. 'They tighten up the nets to bring each sub-group together then the skiffs push them toward the tarps. Under the tarps in the shallows is where the trainers work with the killers to select the "prettiest" dolphins which will sell and make the best pay day for the hunters,' the group says. The fishermen will 'kill the "undesirable" dolphins (those with nicks and scars) under the tarps to hide from our cameras when that time comes.'"

77 of 628 comments (clear)

  1. That doesn't seem right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dolphins are intelligent, they'll figure a way out of this.

    1. Re:That doesn't seem right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't condone this behaviour, but the logic behind killing the dolphins compared to killing other animals is sound. Personally, I am against the killing of any animal, but it certainly is hypocrisy if the people complaining participate or contribute in any way to the slaughter of any other animals. Creating arbitrary lines is ridiculous. You either support animal murder or you oppose it.

    2. Re:That doesn't seem right. by twocows · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Uh, creating lines based on a standard of intelligence is not arbitrary at all. And nobody "supports" animal "murder" (you may want to look up the definition of that word). They tolerate it as a means toward living a convenient life. I tolerate this practice as well, but I do not tolerate killing dolphins because there is significant research to suggest that they either possess an intelligence similar to ours or are approaching it. That is something that, to my knowledge, does not exist with any other species.

    3. Re:That doesn't seem right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      He's saying that you're not intelligent.

    4. Re:That doesn't seem right. by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      They may not have written history, but they certainly pass skills on from generation to generation.

      They could hunt people if they wanted. But other than the occasional long imprisoned orca that goes mad and drowns a captor, they much prefer to make friends.

    5. Re:That doesn't seem right. by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's tempting to think that. But the top 3 animals for intelligence after man are the dolphin, the chimp and the pig, with the exact order open to debate. Yet people are quite happy to kill and eat pigs.

      Cats and dogs are much lower on the intelligence scale, but most cultures find it unacceptable to kill them for sport or food.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm completely against killing dolphins too.

      But the list of what animals we will kill for what purposes is somewhat arbitrary.

    6. Re:That doesn't seem right. by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      I am not an animal like any other. I can record my objections for posterity.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    7. Re:That doesn't seem right. by JonWan · · Score: 5, Funny

      Bender: Who wants dolphin?
      Leela: Dolphin? But dolphins are intelligent.
      Bender: Not this one. He blew all his money on instant lottery tickets.
      Fry: OK.
      Leela: Oh, OK.
      Amy: That's different.
      Farnsworth: Good, good.
      Leela: Pass the blowhole.
      Amy: Can I have a fluke?
      Hermes: Hey, quit hogging the bottle-nose.
      Farnsworth: Toss me the speech centre of the brain!

    8. Re:That doesn't seem right. by BobMcD · · Score: 2

      If someone were to kill you for food, even if they were genuinely starving, you can bet that person would be considered a murderer, despite the fact that you are an animal like any other.

      That's probably not true. Recent examples are scarce, but historical examples show us that those people would be thought of as having gone crazy. There's no mens rea for murder in your example. In most if not all true 'kill or be killed' situations, juries acquit.

      Otherwise, your standard is too low to be useful. You're killing millions of living right this very second just through metabolic practices. Is not 'kingdom' just as 'arbitrary' as 'intelligent'? Your world view would allow for the murder of innocent treants, would it not?

    9. Re:That doesn't seem right. by BStroms · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, I've seen research that indicates the extreme intelligence attributed to dolphins is largely myth based on brain size. And most of the larger dolphin brain is simply focuses on their echolocation. The speed of sound is much greater underwater, and processing all that information requires much more brain devoted to it than our own sense of hearing.

      In most intelligence tests dealing with items such as problem solving and the like, dolphins are not only far below humans, but below many animals people wouldn't think of, such as several species of birds, and I believe ferrets. But my memory as to the exact rankings is a little fuzzy.

    10. Re:That doesn't seem right. by twocows · · Score: 2

      Why's that? I don't find "life" something with intrinsic value. "Life" is not its own end. Intelligence, emotion, ambition; these are some of the things that make our lives valuable (at least in my eyes). These are the things I see as worth protecting. Others may disagree, but that doesn't really matter because I'm talking about what I find ethically tolerable. So if I see those sorts of traits in an animal species, then I believe that species is worth protecting, even if allowing its members to be killed would make my life more convenient. Conversely, if I don't see those traits, then I think human (or intelligent life, I should say) convenience trumps and I consider it to be a tolerable practice.

      And "creating lines based on intelligence is the epitome of arbitrary" is simply false. At worst, the cutoff point is a bit arbitrary. We haven't figured out exactly where something stops being non-intelligent and starts being intelligent, if there is a line. That doesn't mean there aren't things that are objectively non-intelligent (bacteria, rocks, politicians) and things that are objectively intelligent (most humans).

      And call it "murder" or whatever weasel word you want; I "murder" hundreds of billions of bacteria each time I fart. That doesn't make it meaningful.

    11. Re:That doesn't seem right. by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But the top 3 animals for intelligence after man are the dolphin, the chimp and the pig, with the exact order open to debate.

      Not to say dolphins and pigs aren't intelligent, but I think there's a couple of other apes (e.g. bonobos) in there too...

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    12. Re:That doesn't seem right. by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be more accurate, there were multiple Auschwitzes, and I was talking about the one where, when it was in full operation, no arbitrarily high amount of intelligence would have saved you beyond some point. In matters of survival, there simply are unsolvable situations. The OP saying that "dolphins are smart" was being facetious.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    13. Re:That doesn't seem right. by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Is there anything more arbitrary than the line drawn between "human" and "animal"?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    14. Re:That doesn't seem right. by LifesABeach · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Of all speices of animals on the planet, Dolphins are the only non domesticated animal that has been documented to go out of its way to help a human.

    15. Re:That doesn't seem right. by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 2

      Murder is when an animal kills another animal in its own pack\herd\group. Killing food has never been considered murder in most cultures. Killing foods is a positive outcome for most packs of animals. Killing members of the pack can have a negitive outcome for the group. The ethics are based on the impact on the group.

    16. Re:That doesn't seem right. by rubycodez · · Score: 5, Funny

      that may not be true, you only hear about the ones that were playfully pushing humans toward shore. you didn't hear about the other 70% of times they playfully pushed a screaming human into the open sea to drown.

    17. Re:That doesn't seem right. by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      And most of the larger dolphin brain is simply focuses on their echolocation.

      That doesn't sound right to me, some bats have a brain smaller than a pea and yet they can perform similar echolocation feats as the big brained Dolphin. Relative brain size is normally associated with social complexity and Dolphins are socially complex animals.

      Also any ranking of intelligence depends on how you define "intelligent", problem solving alone is too limited since an Octopus can work out how to open a screw top lid much faster than any other animal. You simply can't compare such alien intelligences as Dolphins, Dogs, Octopus, Humans, they all have very different bodies and all perceive the world around them with very different senses.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    18. Re:That doesn't seem right. by BStroms · · Score: 2

      With the bats, don't forget that the speed of sound is four times greater in water than in air. I'm not expert, and only reporting what I read, but the claim was that handling this increased data resulting from the effect required a significantly enlarged and specialized section of the brain. And yes, it largely does come down to how you define intelligence how the rankings go.

      Still, no matter what metric you use, I think you'll be surprised by how many animals not thought of as especially intelligent in the animal world can accomplish or surpass them in that feat. There really has been no evidence I've ever seen that dolphins are anything extraordinary in the animal world in terms of mental capacity, and I attribute to just another case of an idea catching on an gaining a life of it's own. Dolphins are cute, and friendly, and people like the idea of them being intelligent.

      Whereas birds such as Rooks and Ravens that have demonstrated some incredible feats that few animals can duplicate don't make nearly as attractive a story. I mean we consider birdbrained a fairly strong insult.

    19. Re:That doesn't seem right. by dryeo · · Score: 5, Funny

      Some zoo keeper once said something like, "give a chimp a screwdriver and it will use it for everything but its intended purpose. Give a Gorilla a screwdriver and first he'll show fear, then try to eat it. An Orangutan will show disinterest, hide the screwdriver and later when no one is looking, disassemble his cage"

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    20. Re:That doesn't seem right. by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 4, Informative

      The ability to do so was also limited - not every Jew is an Einstein, and many countries had restrictive immigration policies in that time period (e.g. US had a quota system under the "National Origins Formula" in that time period, and Australia restricted immigration to whites).

      It should also be noted that the restriction on Jewish rights under the Nazis was also gradual. Early on, many people felt, not unreasonably so, that the risk and expenses inherent in a move (especially overseas) far outweigh the inconveniences. By the time the full extent of the danger was realized, they were already significantly curtailed in their ability to move. Even so, in 1938, there was an international conference devoted to the question of Jewish immigration from Nazi Germany, and Hitler himself said that he'd be happy to get rid of any Jews willing to leave so long as some other country is willing to take them. All other Western countries have declined, some in quite racist terms - e.g. Australian representative saying that "as we have no real racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one". The only country that extended an invitation to a considerable number of refugees was Dominican Republic, and that, ironically, was because Trujillo was trying to "whiten" the population of the country, and considered Jews as white for that purpose.

      Then, of course, only some places proved to be safe to flee to, like US or UK. But who in 1938, much less 1933, would expect that France - the same France that was part of the winning coalition of WW1, and contributed significantly to German defeat - could not hold its own? At the same time it was a more attractive destination for German Jews, seeing how it is an adjacent country, making the move logistics easier.

  2. Is this a cuteness thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, dolphins are cuter than cows and pigs ... is harvesting one worse than the other?

    How many million cows are slaughtered every year? How many pigs? How many chickens?

    This sounds like one set of animals has better PR than another.

    1. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a dolphin is demonstrably smarter than a chicken and because of that people feel it is more likely to experience pain and suffering during this "fishing".

      Not a personal opinion of mine, just one hypothesis for the reaction.

      --
      I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    2. Re: Is this a cuteness thing? by rilister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Funny that you chose chickens out of that list. How about pigs? Pretty well known to be one of the smarter mammals around. At least, they've never launched a pointless war to my knowledge.

      --
      'This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it' - Eeyore
    3. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pigs and chickens aren't going extinct precisely because we like to eat them.

    4. Re: Is this a cuteness thing? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      You should go read Orwell's seminal masterwork of the lead-up to the great porcine war -- ignoring the cloyingly cutesy name: "Animal Farm".

    5. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      As a species the bottlenose dolphin is not endangered. There are well over half a million bottlenose dolphins swimming all over the world, and their population numbers ARE stable.

    6. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, no. I'm a carnivore but there should be a line somewhere in terms of intelligence.

      Careful with that. You don't want to end up with Sarah Palin on your plate just because of some arbitrarily low line.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    7. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Wycliffe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Maybe it has something to do with the fact that a dolphin is demonstrably smarter than a chicken and because of that people feel it is more likely to experience pain and suffering during this "fishing".
      Not a personal opinion of mine, just one hypothesis for the reaction.

      I noticed that out of the 3 choices you picked the chicken. The "demonstrably smarter" doesn't really hold very well when
      you compare dolphin to pig instead. A pig is right up there probably falling somewhere above dog and below dolphin.
      I like pork but I still think it is an important debate. Would farm-raised dolphins be acceptable? If not, why not?
      Why is eating dogs and horses frowned upon in alot of areas? Should we let animals live out their natural lives in
      comfort before harvesting them? What criteria do we as a society use to decide what should and should not be be eaten
      and when and how it is humane to harvest it?

    8. Re: Is this a cuteness thing? by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      Wild pigs are in an eternal state of war, if you see one make sure you know where the nearest tree is!

    9. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by meerling · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a distinct possibility that dolphins are not just smart animals, but actually sentient beings.
      Why can't we communicate with them? We can, just not very effectively. That's understandable, they are more alien to us than the average hollywood extraterrestrial. Just look at the environment they are evolved for, living in water their entire life, relying on sonar, having to return to the air layer on a regular basis. Decidedly not the same as a terrestrial life.

      And here's a biggie for you. They've been trying to decipher the dolphin language for a long time. They don't know much about it, but they have found out some very interesting things. Dolphins share knowledge and instructions. They also gossip. Of course, to gossip you need individual names to reference the individual you are talking about. They do. They've clearly tracked unique sound identifiers that are apparently being used with regards to specific individuals, in other words, personal names.
      When was the last time you heard about pigs sharing instructions verbally or using personal names?

      Is it right to eat another sentient being? Most people would say no.
      It's part of the reason why they wanted to study E.T. and not BBQ him.

    10. Re: Is this a cuteness thing? by Antipater · · Score: 2

      Do pigs fight the way deer do? Because deer are the most pointlessly violent animals I've ever seen (outside, arguably, humans). If there are two bucks and eight does in an area, the two bucks will fight for all eight. The loser will be horribly injured, maimed possibly to the point of death. The winner will also be injured, and will be so exhausted that he will mate with just one doe before collapsing. The other seven does are SOL.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    11. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by multi+io · · Score: 2

      Yes, dolphins are cuter than cows and pigs ... is harvesting one worse than the other?

      How many million cows are slaughtered every year? How many pigs? How many chickens?

      This sounds like one set of animals has better PR than another.

      If we had dolphin farms with millions of animals, then maybe your argument would me more valid. But I guess the point is that dolphin farms just wouldn't work. There are some animals like pigs and cows that can be herded and bred easily -- they hardly try to escape, and they reproduce in captivity easily and in large numbers. You can basically just catch a few of them in the wild and build a fence around them, and provide food and water, and they'll be content until the day you kill them. So we use them as livestock. The same wouldn't work with other animals, for example because they show strong territorial behavior or just mature or reproduce too slowly or not at all in captivity. Which is why most of us eat cows or pigs but not mountain goats, antelopes or dolphins. If you nevertheless try to use one of those "wild", undomesticated types of animals for food in large quantities, you'll end up endangering the species.

    12. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Stargoat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like killing and eating geese and pheasants; I call it hunting. I would not torture one for several days before I killed it. That would be wicked and cruel.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    13. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Exactly where do you get your information? All the sources I can google expressly state they are "Not Endangered"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottlenose_dolphin#Conservation
      http://www.marybio.org/en/MM-Bott_Dolp-conservation.html

    14. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by tsqr · · Score: 4, Funny
    15. Re:Is this a cuteness thing? by Hatta · · Score: 3

      I'd eat that.

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      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  3. Why is this even on /.? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Really, this isn't the news I would expect for this site.

  4. Re:Might be tasty!!! by clickclickdrone · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They're mammals, not fish.

    --
    I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
  5. Nice to be at the top of the food chain by sideslash · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Cows and especially pigs are highly intelligent animals. And they are totally delicious. Let's change our minds about those before we beat up the Japanese too badly, shall we?

    1. Re:Nice to be at the top of the food chain by sideslash · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I would suggest that you are mistaken about cows. (I grew up on a farm and live in farm country.) When cows are very old or sick or are in a small pen, they just stand around, because they don't have much choice. But when they are young and have access to wider pasture, they wander around and explore their world. It's true they spend a bunch of time grazing, but they also don't miss a chance to ogle anything unusual. For example, a turtle walking through a cow field will often capture the attention of the herd, which will follow it (cautiously, it might be dangerous!) on its way through.

  6. So? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This just sounds like one big emotional summary about fishing. Heavily one-sided as well, which doesn't surprise me considering it's Sea Shepard.

    Cry me a river.

  7. Re:Nice subjectivity by Parafilmus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not a biased piece at all. Never would have thought so with ''slaughter'' in the headline /s

    I don't see evidence of bias in the word choice. "Slaughter" is the normal English word to describe the killing of animals for food. Pigs and cows are "slaughtered" routinely, in buildings clearly labelled as "slaughterhouses."

    What other word would you have them use?

  8. So if this dolphin is canned... by salahx · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...will they be able to certify it as tuna-safe ?

  9. click-bait? by markhahn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No, this is not clickbait.

    Normal, mentally-healthy humans have a lot of empathy - otherwise we're psychopaths. Sure, the amount of empathy varies - mainly as a function of whether the animal in question tends to act human-like. We should embrace this, not cynically write it off - empathy *IS* humanity.

    Yes, that also means that anyone who is intelligent and reflective will be uncomfortable with eating meat, concerned how the animal died, and of course what kind of animal it was. This is basically orthogonal to issues of environmental or ecological impact.

    1. Re:click-bait? by spire3661 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Yes, that also means that anyone who is intelligent and reflective will be uncomfortable with eating meat"

      Empathy clashes with survivalist instinct. I can gnaw on the bones of a cow and feel empathy for it, but that doesn't mean im going to stop eating meat. At the base level, our brains see nothing wrong with killing these animals for food. We are the stronger species, we win. Empathy is evolutionarily expensive.

      --
      Good-bye
    2. Re:click-bait? by Ardyvee · · Score: 2

      I don't think anyone who is intelligent and reflective will be uncomfortable with eating meat. While I do agree that there is a part of humanity who is not really reflective, I do think that somebody intelligent can reach the conclusion that: while we should work towards reducing suffering on other animals (regardless of animal), and preferably skip the animal (as a being) part altogether (and thus grow the muscle tissue directly, as long as it keeps a good taste, of course), the benefits (it tastes good, it feeds you [how well it feeds you]) outweighs the disadvantages (knowing the pain the animal suffered, what kind of animal was) and decide that there is no point on concerning themselves with it afterwards. Thus, they won't be uncomfortable although they might have a preference for other sources of food.

      Or to put it another way, despite me knowing how animals are treated (or have an idea, not really my area of interest) and that some animals are more intelligent than others, I'd try the meat anyway, and will continue to consume meat. I don't concern myself with these thoughts when I sit down to eat (nor when buying). I would eat what a hunter would bring if I knew one. I like meat. However, if somebody tells me that they found a way to grow meat and have it taste the same (or very damn close) that doesn't involve growing a full animal, I'll give it a try and probably tend to consume that one.

      Humans have limited resources. Some decide that, after reflection, they are okay with the current status and that there are other areas that they would rather invest their resources.

      Or I can just be a psychopath and am fooling myself into thinking other normal people might be like me. Who knows? We live in a world of madmen, after all.

      --
      I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
  10. Nothing like some tech news! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    How does this matter to a nerd? Will it affect the release of a stable btrfs?

  11. Re:Nice subjectivity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "200 yummy dolphins await being turned into delicious food"

  12. Re:Nice subjectivity by Iskender · · Score: 2

    Not a biased piece at all. Never would have thought so with ''slaughter'' in the headline /s

    Without commenting on the bias, what word should they use? (I'm assuming that's /sarcasm at the end there)

    The dolphins will be killed for meat. The word for killing animals for food is "slaughter". In fact, using that word makes it very clear that they are just animals: the reason it's a strong word when used about human violence is that its meaning then becomes "killed like mere animals".

  13. Dolphins not so smart: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Dolphins aren’t as special as you think

    Their intelligence, like all intelligence, is a complex matter, but basically, they are not as smart as their reputation suggests; although, stating that they are as smart (dumb) as chickens also overstates things.

  14. Please REPEAT by Jack9 · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is NOT tech news.

    --

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    1. Re:Please REPEAT by Al+Al+Cool+J · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is a nerd site, not a tech site. Non-human intelligence, sentience, and the rights of those possessing it seems like a reasonably nerdy subject to me. Plenty of sci-fi books and shows have examined those themes.

    2. Re:Please REPEAT by Triklyn · · Score: 2

      no, this really doesn't have any place on slashdot, the only way this article tangentially approaches technology or science is in the comments section. non-human intelligence, sentience and non-human rights might be appropriate, if this were new research concerning those topics, but this isn't that.

  15. Re:Nice subjectivity by bob_super · · Score: 2

    Japanese scientists still trying to assess whether every sea creature can be turned into sashimi.

  16. Everyone creates arbitrary lines by vistic · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Vegetarianism is about the minimization of cruelty and suffering.

    Plant life does not factor into it because they can not suffer. They can’t suffer because they have no nervous system with which to think. They also have no physical mechanisms with which to feel pain. And even if they did, they have no thoughts, so the pain would mean nothing. They have no fear, panic, or sadness. They live, but they live without consciousness. So you can not torture a plant or make it suffer.

    On the animal spectrum, not all animals are the same since some animals have small brains and simple thoughts and other animals have complex brains and complex thoughts. At the top of the animal spectrum you have humans with the most complex brains and abstract thoughts and intense sensations of fear. Humans have a high capacity to suffer. On the other end of the spectrum you have animals like spiders with comparatively simple nervous systems and simple thoughts. They have a much smaller capacity to suffer. That’s why it would feel more painful to watch someone rip the legs off a spider than watch someone rip the legs off a cat or horse or chimpanzee. So there’s a spectrum of animals ordered by how self-aware they are and how complex their thinking is: spiders, fish, chickens, ravens, octopus, cats, dogs, pigs, cows, horses, dolphins, gorillas, chimpanzees, humans... roughly something like that. Everyone draws a line on the spectrum, whether consciously or unconsciously, what they are comfortable with. Some people are fine eating fish and chicken, but not pigs and cows. Other people are fine eating pigs and cows, but not chimpanzees, who are almost human. Some people are even fine eating chimpanzees and feel no empathy when they shout and panic. Almost everyone at least agrees that it’s not ok to eat humans. But some people even do that. A vegetarian draws the line at it being not ok to eat any animal.

    Some people argue that oysters, despite being animals, are vegetarian. They aren’t, by definition of the word vegetarian, but it is true that the argument for plants applies to oysters. Oysters do not have a central nervous system, no consciousness, and no thoughts. So they can not suffer.

    Not all vegetarians are vegetarian for the same reasons. Some people have a spiritual belief that all life is sacred and equal, but that’s not my belief and not something that’s supported by any facts I’ve seen. What I outlined above, though, is simple fact and simple reasoning.

    1. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by anagama · · Score: 2

      Everyone draws a line on the spectrum, whether consciously or unconsciously, what they are comfortable with. Some people are fine eating fish and chicken, but not pigs and cows.

      I'm here -- I chose to draw that line at only eating animals not having a neo-cortex, although I do give octopi honorary mammal status. It's somewhat arbitrary of course, but eating other mammals feels sort of broadly cannibalistic.

      I've been eating this way for about nine or ten years and I don't miss anything about eating mammals. I've basically forgotten what they taste like -- I think it was about one or two years into this that I lost all cravings for mammal meat. I do however continue to drink milk and eat cheese and butter on the pretense that all the milk cows I see seem pretty happy out in their fields, though I do recognize there is ancillary cruelty wreaked upon male calves. I've thought of getting my own cow, but we had one for a while when I was a kid and there is just no way to deal with 5 or 6 gallons of milk per day -- even after making butter, giving away all we could, as a family of 5 we still ended up pouring most of it out in the garden. So we sold the cow. Some mini-cows produce only 2-3 gallons but still, I like milk and all, but 15 gallons/wk is way too much, so I've chosen to ignore the guilt I should feel about dairy.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    2. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by dmbasso · · Score: 4, Informative

      While I mostly agree with you, please consider being more open about some concepts, like consciousness. You simply assume that plants are unconscious, because "they have no nervous system". Actually they have, although one very dissimilar to our own [1]. How can you affirm that their subjective interpretation of bodily damage is not similar to e.g. a fish's one?

      [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_perception_(physiology)

      --
      `echo $[0x853204FA81]|tr 0-9 ionbsdeaml`@gmail.com
    3. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by jafac · · Score: 5, Informative

      Plant life does not factor into it because they can not suffer.

      according to your definition of "suffer".

      They can’t suffer because they have no nervous system with which to think.

      Why is thinking a necessary criterion for suffering?

      They also have no physical mechanisms with which to feel pain.

      Their mechanisms are different from those of animals, to be sure. No nerves, etc. But plants DO have mechanisms for registering and even communicating physical damage and distress.
      http://www.reeis.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/0187702-mechanism-for-biosynthesis-release-and-detection-of-volatile-chemical-in-plant-insect-interactions.html

      And even if they did, they have no thoughts, so the pain would mean nothing.

      Yes. Thoughts have "meaning" to us human beings. We have no idea what meaning (if any) thoughts have for animals. And we have no idea of a plant's experience, and whether there is anything which has any "meaning". In this completely anthrocentric view - why is "meaning" of thought, more important than "meaninglessness" of plants? In fact, human suffering and thought, and meaning, when viewed in certain contexts, can shrink to almost nothing. Imagine stubbing your toe. Now imagine the meaning of that thought, 1,000,000 years from now. Not so much meaning to that, is there?

      They have no fear, panic, or sadness. They live, but they live without consciousness.

      Why is a plant's existence any less meaningful than an animals? Why does consciousness preclude suffering?

      There is an argument about meat-eaters, that since they eat cows and pigs, but not dogs or cats, that this is really an argument of "survival of the cutest". Dogs and cats are the most human-like, and they are cute, so we don't eat them. But they are not human, so it's really no different if we ate dogs or cats. (some cultures eat dogs, of course). But if we can extend our humanity to dogs and cats because they "feel pain" or "have conscious thought" - then we can really extend that to most of the mammals, and many higher animals. And if dogs and cats have thoughts and feelings (though, clearly they're different from human thoughts and feelings) - why would we place value on those, and not the thoughts and feelings of cows and pigs - which are clearly even more different. And if we can conceive of an existence of cows and pigs being sacred - then why is not all life (even plant life) sacred? Where do you draw the line, and why do you draw one? What is "complex" enough to merit not being eaten? It's either a biological argument, or it's an argument of empathy. And even the biological argument is empathic. We draw our lines of distinction at the classification boundary between the plant and animal kingdom?

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    4. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by The+Mighty+Buzzard · · Score: 2

      An interesting line of thought. By that reasoning you'd expect a venn diagram of vegetarians and abortion proponents to be two separate circles in all but the earliest term abortions. Based strictly on the average political affiliation of the two groups though, I doubt this would be the case.

      --
      Violence is like duct tape. If it doesn't solve the problem, you didn't use enough.
    5. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by LostInTaiwan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Um, Veganism is about minimizing cruelty and suffering. Vegetarianism is just a form of diet. I know plenty of vegetarian with leather handbags and leather upholstered car interiors.

      I do eat meat but I am a bit uncomfortable with the whole classifying living things into how complex they are according to human definitions. It goes without saying, life is essential to every living being regardless of their CNS complexity. Just because something doesn't feel what humans perceive to "pain" does not mean that they do not feel "pain." Everyday we learn something new about our environment and our fellow Earth cohabitants. The old thinking that crustaceans do not feel pain is being dispelled by new research data.

    6. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 2

      Veganism is about minimizing cruelty and suffering

      Not entirely. If you were to milk a Jersey cow that happily lives in a field and drink that milk, you're not a vegan but you're also not encouraging pain and suffering. Ditto frying up some eggs laid by chickens clucking around in your barn. Again, not vegan but not encouraging cruelty and suffering. Now granted there are horrible dairy and chicken farms that are immensely cruel, but it's not difficult to eat "cruelty free" eggs and dairy, it's just more expensive.

    7. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by adiposity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If a thought has no meaning to us, as humans, then it is hard to develop any sympathy for that thought. Since sympathy is essentially the basis for treating intelligent animals "humanely," it is pretty hard to swallow that we should give the same deference to seaweed as chimps.

      But, you can argue for any mode of thought. Perhaps oxygen molecules don't like being inhaled, and we should just let ourselves die from suffocation. It's kind of silly to approach life that way, though. A better approach might be to preserve that which we think is worth being preserved. There isn't really any way to do that other than a selfish point of view (from the point of the species, the region, or the individual). If there is no value in saving the life of all seaweed, then we don't do it. If there is a value in keeping dolphins alive, then we do it.

    8. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by Smauler · · Score: 2

      Vegetarianism is about the minimization of cruelty and suffering.

      No, it's not. Every vegetarian I know would not, for example, eat a deer that had been hit by a car, or had died of some other cause. The deer is already dead, there is no more suffering by eating it, but most vegetarians would not eat it.

      Plant life does not factor into it because they can not suffer. They can’t suffer because they have no nervous system with which to think. They also have no physical mechanisms with which to feel pain. And even if they did, they have no thoughts, so the pain would mean nothing. They have no fear, panic, or sadness. They live, but they live without consciousness. So you can not torture a plant or make it suffer.

      You're essentially saying here that eating meat necessarily means that something suffers. That is not the case. We keep chickens for eggs here, and they have a pretty good life generally. When the flock gets a bit low, we let some hatch... half of them will be male, and small flocks with lots of roosters are not good places to be for the chickens. What do you think should be done with the males? Should they be killed and thrown away?

      None of these chickens would have lived if we did not keep them for eggs and occasionally meat. They would not have had their life. There would be zero suffering at all, admittedly, but that's because there would be no life at all.

      Also, there are plenty of animals which by any reasonable definition probably do not feel pain either. I would argue killing a 500 year old oak tree is probably worse than killing a placozoa. If you admit that killing and eating placozoa is ethically ok, at some point you're going to have to differentiate between animals it is ok to eat, and animals it is not.

    9. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by adiposity · · Score: 2

      > I don't think animal life is worth preserving. So now what?

      So, you don't do anything to preserve that life. Others may disagree.

      I was just saying, the idea of preserving species based on our idea of what they think or feel doesn't really allow us to do the same for plants. Plants are so different from humans that we are unlikely to ever have much sympathy or empathy for their "thoughts" or "feelings," which from the human perspective don't really even exist.

      I don't disagree that preservation of plant life is important, though. I just suggest that the only rational approach is to preserve things based on their value to us as a planet, species, country, or family. Certainly the idea of not eating dogs while eating pigs is an irrational one from an intelligence standpoint. On the other hand, dogs have proven to be good companions, and some people may see a big value in preserving that.

      I wasn't making any conclusions on who was right, as much as explaining why the idea of plant intelligence/emotion is not really a strong argument in treating them more like humans, or pets.

    10. Re:Everyone creates arbitrary lines by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      I was just saying, the idea of preserving species based on our idea of what they think or feel doesn't really allow us to do the same for plants. Plants are so different from humans that we are unlikely to ever have much sympathy or empathy for their "thoughts" or "feelings," which from the human perspective don't really even exist.

      Please realize that your view is only your own personal experience, in this instance. You cannot just state this as if it were an objective argument. My personal experience with tending plants, and those of many gardeners I know, says otherwise.

      I did a lot of gardening when I was younger, and I'm gradually getting back into it. I have, over the years, also had a large supply of houseplants -- usually given to me, rather than something I sought out.

      But even if you spend only limited time "taking care of" plants, you begin to notice their dynamic quality. Many plants will respond rather quickly when watered after being neglected for a while, only a day or two of a change in sun direction, and you see the new growth pointing in a different direction, and many plants will even respond negatively to being handled roughly (or at all) by humans... wilting or browning within a few days.

      I never really thought deeply about this until I had a friend who would "torture" houseplants. I know a lot of people who just couldn't handle having them... they'd just forget about them and they'd dry up before they were even noticed.

      But this friend would periodically remember that she had them... and try to nurse them back after they were half dead. The plant would spend years in a cycle of responding vigorously (yearningly?) when finally watered and tended, only to be dying again after a week of neglect.

      Since then I've read many recent findings about plants' sensitivity and ability to respond in fairly complex ways to a variety of stimuli. It makes me think back on my friend's behavior and personify the plants -- imagine yourself in that sort of cycle of neglect, responding quickly and vigorously when someone gives you even the slightest attention, but then failing again and again and ending up fighting for your life on a weekly basis. It's a horrifying prospect.

      I'm not at all claiming that a plant has anything like "conscious feelings" that we could understand in that sense. I'm certain that my sympathy can never quite understand what it "feels like" to be a plant in a situation like that. But from my experience seeing all the complex ways plants respond as they grow, I came to view my friend's behavior as a little sadistic. It made me somewhat sad to think of those plants being "tortured" like that.

      I'm sure that if you haven't spent a lot of time observing the growth patterns of plants, you may not understand this perspective. But just because the plant doesn't come up and lick your hand or something immediately when you offer it food doesn't mean it doesn't respond to care -- the effects just happen on a slightly longer time scale.

      And before you dismiss this all as some sort of craziness, consider that you have absolutely no freakin' idea what it "feels like" to be a chimp or a dog or a pig or a dolphin or whatever. In fact, you have no idea what it even feels like to be me. All you can do -- and we can ever do -- is observe behaviors and characteristics of other things, animals, plants, or even other people, and assume that analogous behaviors might mean that there could be some sort of commonality of experience. Sure, we can argue about brain structure or nervous system structure, but that tells us precious little about how it "feels" to be some other creature. New research comes out on a regular basis about how much of even humans' perception and behavior and "feeling" comes out of stuff beyond out basic nervous system and brain... our bodies have very complex interactions with the environment, and it's not all neatly quantified and run through our conscious brains to create our "feelin

  17. Re:2 wrongs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Three things:
    1. All of your examples included humans, this story isn't about humans. It's about dolphins. (Also, how is this Tech news at all?)
    2. Even if our morals do change to include all animals in the category of "no eating", that time is not now. If people look back in horror at this, so what? I'm not them, they're not me.
    3. Kind of related to #2: Animals will continue eating other animals (and I would like to point out that none of your examples occur to the general animal populace either, strange disconnect). That's not suddenly going to change even if human's morals do. So does that mean that the other animals are less moral than humans?

    Also, meat is just so damn tasty. Who would want to give that up?

  18. Re:Nice subjectivity by NoKaOi · · Score: 2

    What other word would you have them use?

    I agree, "slaughter" should not have been used in the headline. Considering the intelligence of dolphins compared to cows, pigs, chickens, or fish, "murder" or "massacre" would have been more appropriate terms.

  19. Re:Nice subjectivity by nschubach · · Score: 2

    You can't spell Slaughter without Laughter.

    --
    Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
  20. Re:Local customs can change. by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Speaking of WWII and Japan, we encouraged them to eat more dolphin and whale when we were rebuilding them. Custom? Please. It's a dying generation remembering what they ate in grade school because that was the cheapest meat available, and an industry which doesn't want to admit to it's shareholders that it's time to fold.

  21. Re:Nice subjectivity by Parafilmus · · Score: 3, Informative

    Slaughter implies butchering and the headline makes it sound as if the animals were to be butchered in the cove.... Slaughtering in the cove sounds unsanitary.

    I suppose I don't know how sanitary it is, but they really do perform the slaughter right there in the cove.

    eg:
              http://digitaljournal.com/image/102641

              http://unleashed.org.au/images/blogs/The-cove.jpg

  22. Wow! by DarthVain · · Score: 5, Funny

    That sort of escalated rather quickly.

  23. Dolphins vs Syrians? by EMG+at+MU · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is it that some people seem to care more about the death of 200 dolphins than the death of 200,000 Syrians?

    1. Re:Dolphins vs Syrians? by EMG+at+MU · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why is it that some people seem to care more about the death of 200 dolphins than the death of 200,000 Syrians?

      Why is it that some people care more about the death of 200,000 Syrians than the death of over a million jews during WWII?

      See? I can find a bigger problem too.

      It might have something to do with WWII ending in the 1940's while the dolphin 'slaughter' and the Syrian conflict are current.

  24. Total uninsightful and blatant trash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I suggest you read into the work of Dr Cleve Backster

    He's a scientist who started out as a CIA polygraph expert, and he decided one day, "what would happen if I took my polygraph and hooked it up to the leaf of this plant?". Well, he was very surprised, because, unlike smooth, unchanging wavelengths, which he thought he would see from the plant, instead he ended up with a shifting dynamic wave, which was more indicative of what you would expect a human being to be like, with the exception that skin, kind of acts as a dampening agent to the electrical current. But the plant has a very active dynamic electrical current.

    Well, then he said, "This plant is acting so much like a human being, what if I ran the plant through stress, similar to how you do a human on the lie detector?" The whole purpose of the lie detection is, you want to get this person into the moment, when you say, "Did you fire the shot who killed so and so?" And the person has a shock, and they're not happy, they're not enthusiastic about your question. So, so they end up saying, "no of course I didn't kill him", and then the graph goes crazy!

    So he says, "How do I shock a plant"? He tried dipping one of the leaves in his coffee. That didn't work. He tried a variety of little things like that, when he got the idea in his mind, without actually even doing it, but he just got the idea, of going and taking a match, lighting the match, striking it, then holding it to one of the leaves and burning the leaf.

    The plant had an enormous reaction, and in fact did not stop until after he had actually gone and done it, burnt the leaf, and then taken the matches out of the room again. Only once the threat was gone, and he was out of the room, did the plant finally calm down.

    So yes, plants just like human beings suffer and go through stress. It's not a good argument to use for "cruelty and suffering"

  25. Go after the buyers of dolphin meat. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The Japanese consider dolphin meat to be a delicacy and serve it in their high priced restaurants. See if any of those restaurants are used to cater/host sales conferences or other such bashes of Japanese brand names. Then just publicize the info. Headlines like "Tonda Corp or Hoyota Motors hosts its sales kick off conference with dolphin meat serving restaurant" in US Market will have some salutary effect. If big name players stop supporting restaurants serving marine mammal meat the market will be greatly diminished. Hopefully.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  26. logic by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 2

    It depends on what you base your ethics around. You have options. 1) There is a universal right/wrong dictated by God. 2) What is good for humanity as a whole is right. 3) What is good for me personally is right. 4) What is good for intelligent life is right. 5) What is natural is right. 6) What feels good is right. 7)Nothing is right/wrong
    If you don't decide what your ethics are based on then how can you decide what is logical???? If you believe #2 then killing dolphins is ok. If you believe #1 then you should check scripture about your diet. If you believe #4 then you need to create a line somewhere. Maybe dolphins is that line.