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Ukrainian Protesters Receive Mass Text Message Ordering Them To Disperse

schneidafunk writes " Dear subscriber, you are registered as a participant in a mass disturbance.' was the message sent to thousands of protesters as a new law prohibiting public demonstrations went into effect." From NYTimes: "... Protesters were concerned that the government seemed to be using cutting-edge technology from the advertising industry to pinpoint people for political profiling. Three cellphone companies in Ukraine ... denied that they had provided the location data to the government or had sent the text messages, the newspaper Ukrainskaya Pravda reported. Kyivstar suggested that it was instead the work of a 'pirate' cellphone tower set up in the area."

233 comments

  1. first outing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And.... here. we. go!

    1. Re:first outing! by houstonbofh · · Score: 2

      "Lets go do some crimes! Bring your phone. I want to take a selfie!"

      Not a place I want to be contactable... Burner protest phone for the win.

    2. Re:first outing! by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      This order to disperse sponsored by McDonalds- We do it all for you!

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    3. Re:first outing! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This order to disperse sponsored by McDonalds- We do it all for you!

      Would like some government approved fires with that?

    4. Re:first outing! by SeaFox · · Score: 2

      This order to disperse sponsored by McDonalds- We do it all for you!

      Would like some government approved fires with that?

      No thanks. We have cocktails to make our own.

  2. New laws by schneidafunk · · Score: 4, Informative

    This chart has some interesting tidbits on laws that were just put in place in the Ukraine.

    --
    Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
    1. Re:New laws by stewsters · · Score: 1

      I like how the "Participation in peaceful gatherings" one has a guy with a lit Molotov cocktail.

    2. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "the Ukraine" is a linguistic holdover from the Soviet Union when this was shorthand for "The Ukrainian SSR." Like terms "Moldavia", "Belorussia", and "Turkmenia", it is used by pro-putin English speakers as a linguistic barb against citizens of those countries, knowing that it can be excused as a slip of the tongue if they are ever called out on it. You should not use the term "the Ukraine" as it is outdated and belongs on the scrapheap of history.

    3. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      In no longer soviet Ukraine, a lit Molotov cocktail is just to keep your hands warm while you protest.

    4. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Based on this news it looks like they are going back to The Ukrainian SSR.

    5. Re:New laws by girlintraining · · Score: 1

      This chart has some interesting tidbits on laws that were just put in place in the Ukraine.

      This picture has some interesting commentary on protesters who carry government-regulated and controlled tracking devices with full surveillance capabilities while trying to piss in the government's cheerios.

      --
      #fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
    6. Re:New laws by ericloewe · · Score: 1

      I've seen more incredible(-y reckless) stunts from that part of the world to dismiss your comment as a mere joke.

    7. Re:New laws by Sperbels · · Score: 2

      Well, my world map says Ukraine. And I'm not pro-Putin and I certainly have no intention of sinking any barbs. If there's a better word...what is it?

    8. Re:New laws by Antipater · · Score: 2

      The better word is "Ukraine". Not "the Ukraine".

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    9. Re:New laws by steveg · · Score: 2

      His point is that "Ukraine" is acceptable. "The Ukraine" is not.

      Of course, I learned my eastern European geography from my Risk board game almost 50 years ago, so it will forever be the Ukraine to me.

      --
      Ignorance killed the cat. Curiosity was framed.
    10. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't mount a dash-cam on a Molotov, comrade.

    11. Re:New laws by noh8rz10 · · Score: 2

      I thought it was Kamchatka

    12. Re:New laws by noh8rz10 · · Score: 0

      another funny thing about the chart is that 10% of the time spent making it went into documenting facts about repression, and 90% went into making a slick infographic about it.

    13. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lawls ur so insiteful

    14. Re:New laws by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      //The way someone says something is often just as important as what they said.
      Yo homie, der ain't no shit as fly as the motherfuckin' STYLE. When you step up you gotta step with some flair.

      //It's called subtext
      This phenomena has been long been studied in the field of literature as a method of imparting implied meaning surrounding a character, book, movie, play, etc, without explicitly stating the intended message. See also: Subtext.

      //Like whistling dixey or a fist-bump, it's a subtle political message
      (I can't actually think of a different tone to write this one out in, so you'll just have to make up your own. #1 Write out a statement. #2 Think of a stereotype. #3 think about how they would convey that message. )

      //Bitch
      mmmmm'k, Boy?

    15. Re:New laws by Sperbels · · Score: 1

      Hmm. That makes it sound like the difference between "China" or "Red China". Politically overcharged older people always say "Red China". However, I wasn't aware that anybody in the English speaking world had much of an opinion on Ukraine. Saying like that just doesn't sound right to me: ...opinion on Ukraine vs; ...opinion on the Ukraine.

      Did anyone else know about this? Is it really a thing?

    16. Re:New laws by unixisc · · Score: 1

      In the Risk board game, Ukraine is essentially all European Russia, not just the country w/ that name. By that definition, Moscow would be a part of Ukraine

    17. Re:New laws by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Government should fear the citizenry, not the other way around.

      --
      Good-bye
    18. Re:New laws by icebike · · Score: 1

      This chart has some interesting tidbits on laws that were just put in place in the Ukraine.

      Lots of those outlawed things are also crimes in the US, as well as many EU countries.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    19. Re:New laws by icebike · · Score: 1

      But mounting a GoPro on a molotov would be cool while at the same time incendiary.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    20. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      such as?

    21. Re:New laws by icebike · · Score: 2

      "the Ukraine" is a linguistic holdover from the Soviet Union when this was shorthand for "The Ukrainian SSR."

      That phraseology predates the Soviet Union by many decades.

      In "Pan Michael" Sienkiewicz refers to "The Ukraine" in 1893.
      In "Cossacks of the Ukraine" Krasinsku made it his book's title in 1848.
      In "An universal history: from the earliest accounts to the present time, Volume 35" (A history of Russia), which is a compilation of works of several authors, The Ukraine is referred to by several different authors. The book was printed in 1762.

      Lets not rush to revisionism. There is more than enough of that going on already.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    22. Re:New laws by icebike · · Score: 2

      His point is that "Ukraine" is acceptable. "The Ukraine" is not.

      Its been used in print as "The Ukraine" for well over 300 years.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    23. Re:New laws by icebike · · Score: 1

      such as?

      Seriously?
      Go read it yourself: http://craphound.com/images/di...

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    24. Re:New laws by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      That makes it sound like the difference between "China" or "Red China".

      Many years ago I sent a letter to Radio Peking in "China". It was returned by the Chinese post office with the stamp "The correct address is People's Republic of China." It was more important to them that I called it PRC than to get a program schedule so I could listen to their propaganda broadcasts. Too bad for them, I stuck with Radio Havana, where they actually referred to the US as "running dogs".

    25. Re:New laws by BadPirate · · Score: 1

      Only in Risk.

      --
      - Holy crap, I've got MOD points! Who thought that was a good idea.
    26. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wtf? are you serious? Kamchatka is Kamchatka in real life

      Can't tell if you're stupid or just having a laugh.

    27. Re:New laws by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      It's only become fashionable to drop the definite article in the last 15 years or so. "The Ukraine" was considered correct in standard English for at least a couple of centuries prior to Putin's birth.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    28. Re:New laws by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Pardon me there, DJ Jazzy Trevor, but phenomena are plural.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    29. Re:New laws by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      dude, it's a joke. because of how the risk board was laid out, Kamchatka was a huge strategic piece. Holy shit he has 25 armies on Kamchatka! I'm fucked now! Anybody who learned geography from Risk knows about Kamchatka.

    30. Re:New laws by mjwx · · Score: 1

      His point is that "Ukraine" is acceptable. "The Ukraine" is not.

      Of course, I learned my eastern European geography from my Risk board game almost 50 years ago, so it will forever be the Ukraine to me.

      Well I'm going the other way and proposing that we add "the" in front of every single country. The England, The Germany, The Belize and so forth.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    31. Re:New laws by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I read it. Now point out which law & punishment is the same in the U.S.? You've got to be kidding... the punishments are much more lenient or non-existent in the U.S.

    32. Re:New laws by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      All of these are from a time when Ukraine was not a state.

  3. Scorpion attack. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The question is will they be able to use the data collected about protesters in the future for retribution?

  4. Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Foolish Westerners, you have no idea how deep this rabbit hole goes.

    1. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      The ONLY thing that keeps the NSA from being the Stasi is reporters and brave people willing to leak state crimes to them.

    2. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 2, Informative

      And the fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi. And the fact that they don't have any enforcement arm, while the Stasi had the power to arrest anyone at will. And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design. Nor to they hire informant among the public. And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it), while the Stasi was closely tied to East Germany and almost took over the country at some point, the way Poutine (ex KGB, remember) did in Russia. So yeah, exactly the same. Especially if you have no idea of what you are talking about.

    3. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by weilawei · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No enforcement arm? Like DHS, FBI, DEA, *insert TLA here* that have institutional procedures to falsify the origin of the evidence?

    4. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 3, Insightful

      None of these organisations are enforcement arms of the NSA. They are separate organisations with separate mandates, and in practice, who aren't even especially friendly or helpful among each others.

      The NSA cannot arrests anyone the way the Stasi could without having to tell anybody.

    5. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by weilawei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Aren't especially friendly? What do you call all their fusion centers and data sharing agreements? The NSA is the intelligence arm. Those other agencies are tasked with enforcement.

    6. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I found the shill! Do I get a prize?

    7. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, that's the theory. In actual reality, the relationship between the NSA, the FBI and the CIA is far from easy. In fact, lack of collaboration between them is one of the biggest reason why 9/11 happened. They roles and responsibilities sometime overlap. For example, the NSA isn't the only signal intelligence organisation in the US. The military has their own. Historically, the CIA had their own too. But the NSA never had any enforcement branch, while a shitload of US organisations have (did you know NASA has its own law enforcement division?)

      Obviously, if you see the US government (or any other government) as some kind of monolithic entity that always goes the same direction in unity, you won't care about the distinctions between all these organisations. In reality, it's far, far from being that simple. Politics is everywhere, even in the intelligence community.

    8. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ewibble · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.

      Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.

      Nor to they hire informant among the public.

      I would be very surprised if the didn't, the basically force companies like google to hand over information. They hire people to put back doors int encryption algorithms. Why do you think they are are above doing the same with the general public. The only reason I can see, is it maybe less efficient, than monitoring all electronic communication.

      And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it)

      or crazy good at it, so good at it that you don't even know they are doing it, the USA is a democracy, well compared to East Germany, so they have to be a little more subtle about it.

    9. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi.

      Translation: It's okay, as long as we do it more efficiently.

      they don't have any enforcement arm

      Translation: Outsourcing is the new black.

      they don't systematically create files on their citizens

      Translation: It's not a file if you never look at it! And it's not systematic because... we... uh... use computers to do it!

      Nor to they hire informant among the public.

      Translation: Paying people is SO 1980. We have Facebook now.

      they don't seem to be politically active

      Translation: Outsourcing is the new black.

    10. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 0

      > Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.
      Hum... no?

      >I would be very surprised if the didn't, the basically force companies like google to hand over information. They hire people to put back doors int encryption algorithms. Why do you think they are are above doing the same with the general public. The only reason I can see, is it maybe less efficient, than monitoring all electronic communication.

      The Stasi hired your neighbors to spy on you. At one point, one in 20 or one in 30 East german citizen (can't remember the exact ratio) was an informant on Stasi payroll. If you have any shred of begining of hint of evidence that the NSA is doing anything remotely close to that, please share it.

      >or crazy good at it, so good at it that you don't even know they are doing it, the USA is a democracy, well compared to East Germany, so they have to be a little more subtle about it.

      Again, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Because it really sounds like speculation.

    11. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by interkin3tic · · Score: 2

      And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.

      I agree GP was engaging in ignorant hyperbole, but at what the NSA is doing seems worse: they just file EVERYTHING. So what if they might not categorize it into citizen files before they have a desire to do so?

      They might not have a file on me ready to go, but I'm guessing with a few keystrokes, they could pull together all my texts, e-mails, facebook, and google searches, then with a few more keystrokes could pull up anything embarrassing on me in the event that they need to blackmail me.

      Fortunately for me, my whole life is one big public embarrassment, so they got nothing, but still...

    12. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You just keep sucking that NSA cock you fucking shill. (You might be willfully ignorant, but that just makes you complicit.)

    13. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.

      Sure, sure. Keep telling yourself that the massive, indiscriminate collection of domestic data and metadata does not include information from and about US citizens.

      Nor to they hire informant among the public.

      And you know this because ... ? The NSA could not collect as much data as it does without people on the inside quietly helping them do just that.

    14. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > FUD. Pure and unstrained. You might consider that if we didn't shoot/bomb/torture so many people and left them the fuck alone, they might not hijack a plane and crash it into our buildings.

      Those two things are not mutually exclusive, so I don't really know what's your point.

      > Why have it in-house? What do you call an organization that prepares material for the Commander-In-Chief and supplies data to lawenforcement agencies? Do you imagine the the NSA operates in a magical box, all alone, cut off from the rest of the US government, and the US government has no desire to use their information?

      I never said that they were completely isolated. But there clearly was a willingness to enforce a separation of dutie on this matter (which makes a lot of sense), this separation of duties has clearly influenced the relationships between these organisations, and this is also clearly a difference between the NSA and the Stasi (and I'm kind of surprise to see people jump on THIS difference in particular).

      > Fucking jackboot licking shill

      Three persons called me shill on this thread; the three were AC. Now, I'm sure it must feel very edgy from your POV, but trust me, you guys don't sound edgy at all. You guys sounds like excited dicks who would say anything for a reaction, and can't handle a real discussion when faced with someone calling your ignorance.

    15. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ewibble · · Score: 2

      Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.

      Hum... no?

      Great explanation, the collect information about everybody, about who called who. How can this not be systematically storing files on everyone. Or is it that it isn't a physical file, so its different.

      The Stasi hired your neighbors to spy on you. At one point, one in 20 or one in 30 East german citizen (can't remember the exact ratio) was an informant on Stasi payroll. If you have any shred of begining of hint of evidence that the NSA is doing anything remotely close to that, please share it.

      As I said it maybe just that just more efficient to monitor all electronic communication, but I am sure they pay informants when they deem it necessary, I will conceded the scale is probably smaller, since they have other means, of watching you.

      Again, do you have any evidence whatsoever? Because it really sounds like speculation.

      Neither do you, it is speculation based, the response of the government, when the NSA goes against the constitution, do the get forced to stop, no, the government goes after the whistle blower. I know its not isn't proof, but to me it strongly implies a lot of political influence.

    16. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 0, Troll

      Especially if you ignore that the FBI and NSA are two prongs of the same criminal organization and that the FBI doesn't even pretend to be primarily about law enforcement anymore. The CIA is similarly attacked, using NSA intelligence for both domestic and foreign operations.

      Oh, wait, no, there's a piece of paper on it with an org chart on it that says otherwise and another piece of paper that says the NSA isn't involved in domestic spying, so, nothing to see here, move along.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    17. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 0

      > Great explanation, the collect information about everybody, about who called who. How can this not be systematically storing files on everyone. Or is it that it isn't a physical file, so its different.

      It's just not the same thing at all. If I have a security camera outside my building and I record people passing by, I'm recording a lot of information from a lot of persons, the vast majority who are innocent. But there's a difference between this and creating a file of every one of these person, and then associating each record to each files. THAT would be creepy.

      > Neither do you, it is speculation based, the response of the government, when the NSA goes against the constitution, do the get forced to stop, no, the government goes after the whistle blower. I know its not isn't proof, but to me it strongly implies a lot of political influence.

      You're the one saying that NSA is so good at doing something that they don't appear to be doing it. Note that such claim could be said about anything: NASA sends people to Mars everyday, but they are so good at hiding it that it looks like they aren't. That's speculation. You're the one making a claim here.

      As for the rest, I fail to see how this has anything to do with what I said.

    18. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Three persons called me shill on this thread

      I note that all your comments except one seem to be upvoted, which seems highly unusual for the political climate of Slashdot. Further, other comments in this thread have been downvoted or not upvoted at all. The discrepancy is striking, since you're the only one with your opinion in this thread (stemming from the AC OP). You're a shill with sockpuppets.

    19. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But there's a difference between this and creating a file of every one of these person, and then associating each record to each files"

      But that's exactly what they're doing. Collect everything and correlate it on demand.

    20. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Now the NSA helpfully gives 'tips' to the FBI every day. Mostly in the form of "We, uh, noticed this person doing something. Don't tell anybody we told you."

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    21. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't that what gathering "meta data" is all about.

      Hum... no?

      So millions of my tax dollars goes into paying AT&T to tell the NSA everyone I talk to, when I talk to them, and how long I'm on the phone, and the NSA just throws it away? They don't put that information in a file somewhere?

      Well, now I guess I'm outraged for a different reason.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    22. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's just not the same thing at all. If I have a security camera outside my building and I record people passing by, I'm recording a lot of information from a lot of persons, the vast majority who are innocent.

      Translation: I record people in public, so recording people in private is okay.

      But there's a difference between this and creating a file of every one of these person, and then associating each record to each files.

      Translation: Even though I'm recording you and storing all this metadata to associate each record with each file, it's still different, promise!

      THAT would be creepy.

      Translation: THAT is^H^Hwould be creepy. But we do it anyway.

      You're the one saying that NSA is so good at doing something that they don't appear to be doing it.

      Translation: We had nothing to do with that guy who blew the whistle on us. It was our buddies who forced down the presidential airplane of a sovereign nation and searched it. Our hands are clean. Outsourcing is the new black.

      I fail to see how this has anything to do with what I said.

      Translation: I am willfully ignorant. I am a jackboot licking shill. May I have some moar please?

    23. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I want my, I want my MTV....

      Now look at them yo-yo's
      That's the way you do it
      You play the guitar on the MTV
      That ain't working
      That's the way you do it
      Money for nothing
      And your chicks for free
      Now that ain't working
      That's the way you do it

      Lemme tell you, them guys ain't dumb
      Maybe get a blister on your little finger
      Maybe get a blister on your thumb

      We gotta install microwave ovens
      Custom kitchen deliveries
      We got to move these refrigerators
      We got to move these color TV's

    24. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 0

      ON DEMAND is different than SYSTEMATICALLY. Especially when the "on demand" is "in 1% of the cases".

    25. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi.
      --But they are armed with computers making them thousands of times more efficient --- Sorry but You are wrong here.

      And the fact that they don't have any enforcement arm, while the Stasi had the power to arrest anyone at will.
      -- Ignorant of reality again. They enforce through other agencies in some cases or virtually now. See the President's report and bank accounts...

      And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design.
      -- You have to be a fool. What are all those mass records they are collecting. Makes the Stasi look like kindergarteners.

      Nor to they hire informant among the public.
      -- No they just hire or force Google, Yahoo, Bing etc not to forget the Cell Phone networks.

      And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it), while the Stasi was closely tied to East Germany and almost took over the country at some point, the way Poutine (ex KGB, remember) did in Russia.
      -- The only reason you don't have "evidence of this" is that you are blind. They are very nearly totally in control of Congress at this point.

      So yeah, exactly the same. Especially if you have no idea of what you are talking about.
      --- Well I know you will disagree but you are the fool who has no idea what he is talking about.

    26. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He does not say that the US government doesn't have an enforcement arm, he says that the NSA doesn't have one.

      It is a matter of hierarchy. It means that members of the NSA don't have the authority to command an arrest.

      They might have superiors who have that authority, but the difference is, you can't command your superiors (that's the difference between superiors and underlings).

      It's a bit like saying that an infantry division doesn't have tanks, even though the army unit which that infantry division is part of might have a tank division. But the tank division is not part of the infantry division.

    27. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hand, meet glove.

    28. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ZouPrime · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, you got me there Sherlock. It's impossible that some people just think that i'm making sense, and are happy to see someone calling your bullshit for once. No. It MUST be a conspiracy. By "shills". We are legion, we are everywhere. The NSA pays us to troll a website nobody cares about anymore.

    29. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they don't systematically create files on their citizens

      ON DEMAND is different than SYSTEMATICALLY.

      So, all that data they captured systematically isn't actually a file stored on a drive or in memory somewhere until you decide to arrest someone for it? You mean, just because I executed a query against my database, the database doesn't actually store anything until I query it?

      systematic [sis-tuh-mat-ik] adjective
      1.having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan: a systematic course of reading; systematic efforts.
      2.given to or using a system or method; methodical: a systematic person.
      3.arranged in or comprising an ordered system: systematic theology.
      4.concerned with classification: systematic botany.
      5.pertaining to, based on, or in accordance with a system of classification: the systematic names of plants.

      You just keep moving those goalposts. Let us know when you get tired.

    30. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NSA pays us to troll a website

      Glad you finally admitted it. That's the first step toward recovery. There is help available.

    31. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by ewibble · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because you don't look at the file, doesn't mean it its not there (If a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound). The file is stored systematically, just no human looks at it is only a technical detail and probably more to do with efficiency than anything else. The will probably run algorithms run over it to determine which they consider interesting, it would not be feasible for people to examine that much data.

    32. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ON DEMAND is different than SYSTEMATICALLY. Especially when the "on demand" is "in 1% of the cases".

      In this case, it's actually both. The data is collected systematically and correlated on demand. Think of it as keeping a dossier on every citizen which, instead of being assembled before going into the filing cabinet, the computer conveniently puts together upon request. The difference is mainly technical, except that the NSA's approach is far more powerful and revealing of connections than manually assembled dossiers.

    33. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THAT would be creepy.

      Monitoring the communications of just about everyone in the country and gathering certain kinds of data is creepy, too.

    34. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, we can!

    35. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cold Fjord, is that you?

    36. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      (did you know NASA has its own law enforcement division?)are they Space Marines?

    37. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      you would think that the shills on this thread would be pro-ukraine-govt. why would protestors need a shill, they would be the default hero on slashdot. it could be that this is a shill for NSA, which is really a tangential topic to the story at hand. if I were an NSA shill I would save my comments and mod points for stories that are actually about NSA.

    38. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone please mod this back up. ZouPrime's sockpuppets (and possibly Cold Fjord) are modding down anything but pro-surveillance views.

    39. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NSA cannot arrests anyone the way the Stasi could without having to tell anybody.

      No, that is what the CIA is for.

    40. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Lost+Race · · Score: 1

      You mean, just because I executed a query against my database, the database doesn't actually store anything until I query it?

      That's exactly how quantum computers work!

    41. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi. And the fact that they don't have any enforcement arm, while the Stasi had the power to arrest anyone at will. And that they don't systematically create files on their citizens, you know, what the Stasi job was by design. Nor to they hire informant among the public. And they don't seem to be politically active (or if they are, they are crazy bad at it), while the Stasi was closely tied to East Germany and almost took over the country at some point, the way Poutine (ex KGB, remember) did in Russia. So yeah, exactly the same. Especially if you have no idea of what you are talking about.

      Finally, some reason gets modded up on Slashdot. The USA isn't perfect, but it's far from the hyperbolic police state that seems to get a quick +5 insightful on slashdot these days. Most slashdotters have no experience what a real police state is like. I was fortunate to have grand parents who actually lived in Germany when the Stasi was in force and who told me stories about those times so I could appreciate how fortunate we have it here in the USA. Additionally, I lived in Egypt (as an expat) during the Mubarak era and it's only reinforced my belief of how lucky we have it in the USA. You haven't experienced a police state until you've lived somewhere where the average local person working in the media, anything related to foreign organizations, or anything tangentially related to politics has had the experience once or twice of masked police randomly breaking into their home in the middle of the night to arrest them in front of their family without saying a word as to why, then disappearing for anywhere between a few days and a week to then get dumped off on the side of some random road with festering wounds from the beatings you received.

      NSA != USA is a totalitarian police state. There is a legitimate argument about what the right balance between national security and these melodramatic comments about the USA undermine legitimate and serious discussions about that balance from happening.

    42. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's a pro-NSA shill with sockpuppets. The events in Ukraine don't directly impact US citizens, but the important thing is to make it look like the actions of the Ukraine are justified, because the actions of the NSA are in the same vein. Difference in degree, not kind.

      Have you stopped to notice how high he's been modded, for being the only person with his opinion, in the entire thread, vs the mods of other, more widely expressed (counted in # of non-AC posters, but reflecting the same as AC) views?

    43. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a difference in degree, not kind. The modern totalitarian state with money and oil to burn can afford to be more subtle.

      You haven't experienced a police state until

      And that's a No True Scotsman.

    44. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Significant political figures from the neighboring countries can be still found from the Stasi informant lists, which are now public. Stasi = NSA + CIA + FBI + Spanish Inquisition would be a good approximation of their powers.

    45. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now the NSA helpfully gives 'tips' to the FBI every day. Mostly in the form of "We, uh, noticed this person doing something. Don't tell anybody we told you."

      do you have a link or any source at all to back up your claim?

    46. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      try googling "nsa gives tips to fbi", you should find a post on a site you find somewhat reputable.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    47. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Or, you know, a few nerds logged in and moderated based on information quality instead of just based on if the person spewed similar propaganda.

      You don't have to "like" the NSA or FBI to be interested in the actual extant civics in the United States, or specifically the duties of the various agencies involved in intelligence and law enforcement.

      The big news on that front this month, for people concerned about facts instead of a boogeymen, is that the NSA was giving 3 "tips" per day to the FBI, where the FBI would then know which search warrant to ask for.

    48. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      For example, the NSA isn't the only signal intelligence organisation in the US. The military has their own.

      Military SIGINT groups (like Naval Security Group or Army Security Agency) have historically been under the NSA. When someone trains in the Navy as a cryptologic technician interpretive, for example, one of the possible places they can be assigned is Ft. Mead.

    49. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those two things are not mutually exclusive, so I don't really know what's your point.

      I think the point of the GP was that, if you don't give so many people reasons to fear and hate you, and stayed the fuck out of the affairs of other countries, then you will find that the people who are posing a threat to you would have no grounds to stand on, and far fewer fresh recruits.

      But don't let blind support and confirmation bias prevent you from your blind obedience.

    50. Re:Remember how the NSA is worse than the Stasi? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [T]he fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi. And the fact that they don't have any enforcement arm, while the Stasi had the power to arrest anyone at will.

      Try driving right up to the entrance of that black obelisk in Fort Meade unimpeded and see what their "[non-existent] enforcement arm" does to you and your vehicle.

  5. Drop your phone in the river by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

    So the moral of the story is that if you are protester, then you better drop your cell phone in the river.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn what a brilliant solution. Or just maybe leave it at home?

    2. Re:Drop your phone in the river by necro81 · · Score: 1

      That seems awfully wasteful and expensive. Just turn it off. If you are paranoid that "off" still means "trackable", then stick it in a foil pouch. Fight the (radiated) power, man!

    3. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Either that or keep it in a faraday cage with the battery removed.

      More seriously: If anyone doesn't get it. This is why the NSA must be put out of business. Let something happen in the USA that "stresses" the national government's control and they face "terrorists" or "protestors" or whatever and they decide to go into their records, this message will be the most gentle response compared to what will happen. This is why Obama's reforms are simply unacceptable and worthless.

    4. Re:Drop your phone in the river by jandrese · · Score: 1

      But then the government will think you are at home! You don't want to deceive them, you need to act as suspiciously as possible.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    5. Re:Drop your phone in the river by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      my understanding is this isn't a big deal. it would be bad if they used cell phone data to determine who was in the vicinity, recorded the names, and sent a threatening SMS. What's more likely is they set up a few fake cell phone towers and blasted out a SMS to people whose phones joined that tower. They probably weren't trackeng / don't have the capability to process actual dell pohone data.

    6. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why be limited to one cell phone?

    7. Re:Drop your phone in the river by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      Does a cell phone not have a unique identifier when it connects to a tower? Does the government not have the authority, by force if necessary, to force the cell providers to connect that unique identifier up with the subscriber? Don't be ridiculous, they have everything they need put thousands of people on a watch list. Of course, you'll get a bunch of false positives, but what's a few (extra) ruined lives in the name of state security?

    8. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are no cell phone subscription contracts similar to North America in Ukraine. People get a phone and then buy a SIM card separately with a connection plan assigned to it. Then you simply add money to the account in order to talk.

      Just fyi.

    9. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my understanding is this isn't a big deal

      That's because you're an idiot and a troll. I would love to know what goes on inside of your head. How far do you let things go before you step up and at least disagree? Why are you so okay with authority? I mean, fuck you. Your personality is the reason so many awful things go so far in this world. Fuck you again.

      Posting AC, because I always post AC when replying to one of noh8rz puppet accounts.

    10. Re:Drop your phone in the river by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      Acquiesce to the power, you mean.

      At least 99% of those people aren't worth tracking. The goal is to disrupt communication from the organizers to reduce the size of the protests in the first place. The easiest way is for people to voluntarily disrupt their own communications.

    11. Re:Drop your phone in the river by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      the cell phone has a unique identifier, but isn't directly tied to a person. If you're NSA you can suss out who the person is by looking at every number that cell phone calls, and every number they call. But the Ukraine can't do that. what they CAN do is blast out an ominous SMS to all cell phones connected to a particular tower. Rather powerful troll technique actually... think of the possibilities!

    12. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh, you typed "dell" and all I could think was "Dude! You're going to jail!"
      sorry :)

    13. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Presumably they know who the phones belonged to already by metadata. The identity > the phone itself.

    14. Re: Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lolwut... Or they can simply, you know, record the phone IMSI/IMEI, then access carriers' logs and see which sim(s) had been used with that imei. Then, almost everywhere, you need to provide an id to activate a sim card, even a throwaway. And they can see the numbers you called...

    15. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They're fighting to keep the Freedom they've only had for a couple decades. If they can't even carry their cellphones with them anymore, they've already lost their freedom and should probably be taking up larger arms than burning bottles of vodka.

      By standing tall and proud they're denying the government the lie that it is all for their own good. This fake/pirate cell tower of the government's could really have a strong effect on public opinion, and support for the protesters; especially among the educated classes.

    16. Re:Drop your phone in the river by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Iagree, except that it needs to depend on the consequences. If the punishment becomes severe enough, then seeing people caught &punished will drastically reduce the number of citizens willing to join the protests, which would greatly undermine their power. They need as many people as possible to participate so their government starts to think that increased fascism may be more trouble than it's worth.

  6. Media discovers SMS Cell Broadcast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Found in generations of SMS specs, some older than the people sensationalizing this story.

    captcha: fleece

    1. Re:Media discovers SMS Cell Broadcast... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see a business in setting up a premium sms number and moving to a place with many protests... might even join an extremist group just to get the inside scoop on where to be to get those sweet government money just popping in on the screen.

  7. In other Kiev news by gman003 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've been following this stuff all day, because this just got seriously violent:
    > Police authorized to use firearms, two dead from shooting already
    > Ban on using fire hoses in sub-zero weather lifted
    > Hospitals tending to wounded protesters have been attacked by police
    > Snipers out in force
    > Armored Personnel Carriers already deployed, an Army tank unit is being moved into the city
    > Opposition members of government resigning en masse
    > over 100,000 protesters in Kiev main square

    Things are very bad for Ukraine right now. I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over, but I can certainly recognize the nature of the government's response.

    Everybody should scan through this - the images alone are powerful: https://twitter.com/Euromaidan...

    1. Re:In other Kiev news by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Things are very bad for Ukraine right now. I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over

      My guess: modernization and freedoms vs the government wishing to remain the same as in the old Soviet days.

      The previous generation trying to hold onto power, the younger generation trying to become empowered.

      That, or the right to go bowling on Tuesdays, it's a tough call.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:In other Kiev news by Antipater · · Score: 1

      That, or the right to go bowling on Tuesdays, it's a tough call.

      Pretty much this. They need the money to pay their bowling league fees. The EU offered to pay enough for Tuesday/Thursday league nights, but nothing else. Russia offered to pay for four nights a week, including the cost of pizzas and beer, but with the caveat that they have to let Vladimir on their team, and if he doesn't feel like playing on a given night, then none of them can play.

      --
      Everything is better with chainsaws.
    3. Re:In other Kiev news by ButchDeLoria · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure this has all been over the government not wanting to cooperate with the EU, and instead favoring Putin's Russia (despite the whole USSR thing), and the people wanting the opposite.

    4. Re:In other Kiev news by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The previous generation trying to hold onto power, the younger generation trying to become empowered.

      That, or the right to go bowling on Tuesdays, it's a tough call.

      Fixed.

    5. Re:In other Kiev news by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      The previous generation trying to hold onto power, the younger generation trying to become empowered.

      It is not really young vs old. Language and geography are much bigger factors than age. Russian speakers living in eastern Ukraine generally support the president and Ukrainian speakers living in western Ukraine generally oppose him. An obvious solution is to split the country. Let the area east of the Dnieper River, and Crimea, split off and merge with Russia, while western Ukraine moves toward eventual EU membership.

    6. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > modernization and freedoms vs the government wishing to remain the same as in the old Soviet days.
      Not even close. We have had "best", "modern", "pro-western" president already. And guess what? It only gets worse. Olygarchy-backed politicians don't need any freedoms, don't need any fairness, they want power and they afraid of the President gaining more power.

      > That, or the right to go bowling on Tuesdays, it's a tough call.
      Actually anybody can go bowling any day or do whatever they want in Kiev even right now. All riots are very localized, the rest of the city lives it's own life and gets tired over this (some streets are blocked, huge mess on the main square for more than two months). Few country regions support protests, but again, not a majority.

      captcha: circus

    7. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not really young vs old

      It's always young vs old. Old people don't don balaclavas and throw Molotov cocktails. Only the young do that after they've been fed enough shit by their elders.

    8. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are (relatively) young people in police and SWAT, so, it's young vs. young too?

    9. Re:In other Kiev news by jollyreaper · · Score: 2

      As was explained to me, it's a soup sandwich much like Syria. In Syria you have the choice between a secular dictator and religious fundamentalist rebels. Now there may be some rebel groups that aren't fundie but the fundie ones are getting some of the best outside funding. The official US position is to let both sides bleed each other white to keep the conflict contained. To me that seems a bit like firefighters not trying to fight a blaze, just keep it contained so it doesn't spread and wait for the fuel to run out. Works fine so long as the wind doesn't kick up: then you risk losing the whole block.

      The Ukraine situation is described as one faction wanting to fall under the German sphere of influence in the Eurozone, the other faction wanting to ally more closely with Russia. Makes a big difference for those in power, for the little guys it's just a matter of who's getting to fuck them over.

      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    10. Re:In other Kiev news by gman003 · · Score: 2

      There's a lot of elderly people in the protest square. Most of them aren't doing the fighting, but a lot of the fighting now is defensive - young protesters building barricades and fighting on the edges to keep police from coming in and beating the tar out of the elderly people now trapped in the center.

      From what I can tell, it's geopolitical. The protests started because there was a movement to join the EU, and a seeming majority supported that, but certain political parties refused to let that happen and are trying to ally with Russia. The Communist Party has obvious reasons for that, but I don't understand why the Party of Regions is doing this, considering one of their platforms is supposedly tighter European integration. All I can guess is that it's some sort of power play, because there does seem to be a lot of corruption, which tends to lead to rulers trying to seize more power.

      So it's basically a fight between the people who want to be EU members, and the people who want to be Russian allies (is there a new Warsaw Pact or something? Seems like something Putin would do). And it seems to be split a lot based on geography - the western parts of Ukraine want to be European, the eastern parts want to be Russian. I'm starting to think splitting the country might be a good idea for once.

    11. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting a link to tvtropes? You just killed about 20% of the nation's productivity today. Are you happy with yourself?

    12. Re:In other Kiev news by guises · · Score: 1

      Makes a big difference for those in power, for the little guys it's just a matter of who's getting to fuck them over.

      Everyday life is significantly different for people in the EU than it is for people in Russia. Really I should have to say this, it should be self-evident from the article: you can see the difference happening in the Ukraine as it becomes more Russianized.

    13. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been following this stuff all day, because this just got seriously violent:
      > Police authorized to use firearms, two dead from shooting already
      > Ban on using fire hoses in sub-zero weather lifted
      > Hospitals tending to wounded protesters have been attacked by police
      > Snipers out in force
      > Armored Personnel Carriers already deployed, an Army tank unit is being moved into the city
      > Opposition members of government resigning en masse
      > over 100,000 protesters in Kiev main square

      Things are very bad for Ukraine right now. I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over, but I can certainly recognize the nature of the government's response.

      Everybody should scan through this - the images alone are powerful: https://twitter.com/Euromaidan...

      Update: FIVE protesters dead, already!

    14. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Watch this for a basic statement from a citizen explaining what he is fighting about.

      http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/2014/01/20/ukrainian-revolution-explained-from-the-front-lines-on-night-of-jan-19th-2014/

      Need more information, scan the BBC. They have been reporting fairly regularly

      This site has live video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrZcAsPKK74) however the commentary is in Ukrainian..

    15. Re:In other Kiev news by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      but I can certainly recognize the nature of the government's response.

      These people wanted a new government, they got a new government.

      What the government is good at is collecting taxes, taking away your freedoms and killing people. It's not good at much else. - Tom Clancy

      You'd think they would have learned their lesson with the USSR.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    16. Re:In other Kiev news by rmstar · · Score: 1

      Things are very bad for Ukraine right now. I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over, but I can certainly recognize the nature of the government's response.

      IIUC, this is at the core about wether to join the EU at some point or not. At least, this is the culmination of an escalation that started right after the breakdown of talks between the gov. of Ukraine and the EU, followed by a move to closer ties with Russa.

      One should not be fooled by any of this. The EU is quite capable of funding and supporting disruptive agitators, and has about zero qualms of doing that. After all, this is about the geopolitics of power, so none of the big boys cares if a few lives are ruined. It is a tragedy that those protesting (who have, I am convinced, goals they believe to be virtuous) are being exploited and fooled like this from one side, and shot down like this from the other. There is literally nothing they can win, and quite a bit they can lose.

    17. Re:In other Kiev news by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      It's not so much a younger generation vs. older generation fight, it's more about ethnicity. Eastern Ukraine is heavily populated by ethnic Russians and they want the status quo. Western Ukraine has less Russians and they want to get out of the old Soviet sphere of influence and join the E.U.

      At the root of the whole thing is economic problems. Ukraine is the shithole of Europe when it comes to economic development, with rampant corruption and vast inefficiencies still left over from communist days. The protesters look to Poland as a model to aspire to, since Poland was in a similar situation as Ukraine when Communism fell, but the Poles have since embraced western Europe and have developed light-years beyond the Ukrainians.

    18. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a sad little apologist life you lead...

    19. Re:In other Kiev news by similar_name · · Score: 2

      It is not really young vs old. Language and geography are much bigger factors than age.

      I think the perception of young vs old as a manifestation of age is real. I'm going to ramble with an idea a little bit...

      Language and geography among other things can and do create barriers between populations. If at least by chance, these populations will have varying resources at their disposal. If wealth leads to health (and typically a lower birthrate) and longevity, a population that has wealth will appear older than one that doesn't. So, while the young may fight on both sides, it is likely, the side of those with money, will have a higher average lifespan and thus on average be older.

      This has a reinforcing effect as well. As members of the wealthier society live longer, individuals hold power longer. As such, they will have more experience with the past. This has advantages and disadvantages that merits its own debate but reinforces the idea that old ways are good ways. The poorer population with a lower average age will not be as connected to the past. Again with its own pros and cons. The end result is that old ideas have wealth and these leads to an older population on average. New ideas lack wealth and leads to a younger population on average.

      Please bear in mind that I don't mean to imply many in the Ukraine are wealthy by our standards. But I would guess that those that want to go back with old Russia are the ones with the current wealth and power under Russia. Power tends to have generals while rebels have teenagers. I think this perception manifests with conservatives and progressives as well. Politicians on both sides are old, but there is certainly a perception that those that have more and are older tend to be conservative while those that have less and are younger tend to be more progressive. Even though there is much more complexity to being conservative or progressive on any particular issue.

      Well, there's my .02 on the young vs old.

    20. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that, I wasn't aware things were already this fucked up over there..
      Kinda makes you put things in perspective, it turns out my country is not *that* screwed up yet.
      (posted anon to mod up parent)

    21. Re:In other Kiev news by HeckRuler · · Score: 2

      You uh... realize that the alternative to sideing with the EU is being eaten by Russia again?
      You don't think that Russia has any ability to sway politics and policy in Ukraine?

      Have you been listening to nothing but Russian news? Are they still claiming it's a few thousand gay protestors?

      There is literally nothing they can win,

      They could kick out Yanukovitch and show the future leaders that they have to respect the rights of their citizens.

      and quite a bit they can lose.

      They could die.

    22. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it turns out my country is not *that* screwed up yet.

      But it will be if you keep that No True Scotsman attitude. How bad DOES it have to get before you disagree?

    23. Re:In other Kiev news by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      But I would guess that those that want to go back with old Russia are the ones with the current wealth and power under Russia.

      Your guess is correct. Eastern Ukraine, where Russian is widely spoken, is considerably wealthier than western Ukraine.

    24. Re:In other Kiev news by rmstar · · Score: 1

      You uh... realize that the alternative to sideing with the EU is being eaten by Russia again?

      Yes, I do, and I realize that this is not good,

      You don't think that Russia has any ability to sway politics and policy in Ukraine?

      Where did I say they don't? But I don't think they are behind the protests, and I don't think you do, either.

      Just to clarify. Whenever I think about these issues, I make a point of trying to see what is true, and not confuse this with what I would wish were true. A prosperous Ukraine as a member of the EU would be a very nice thing in my opinion. More likely, IMO less nice, would be a Ukraine that is not prosperous (and whose democracy has been lobotomized) and is a member of the EU, because, you see, the EU isn't a club of philantropists either. Much more likely, unfortunately, is that Russia keeps a tight grip on Ukraine.

      What also seems likely (coold blooded, factual consideration) is that a lot of young people will get tragically ground down in a standoff whose dimensions they do not understand.

      They could kick out Yanukovitch and show the future leaders that they have to respect the rights of their citizens.

      Much to my regret, I see about zero chance of this actually happening.

      Sometimes digging in and waiting for a better time to fight is the best you can do.

    25. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The mess started with Ukraine basically being forced to choose between economic deal with EU, or economic deal with Russia. Right now, they have a deal with Russia. Problem is that if they also make a deal with EU, it would allow exporters to basically push their EU>Russia exports which are extremely lucrative though Ukraine to avoid tariffs.

      A very large part of Russia's budget comes from these tariffs, so Russia explicitly stated that it will not allow for such an obvious loophole, and that if Ukraine does make a deal with EU, current deal with Russia is off.

      At the same time, Ukraine is effectively divided along the linguistic lines. About half the country speaks russian, and another half speaks ukrainian. Kiev is in the ukrainian-speaking region, so it's always a mess when a pro-russian speaking government is in power and does something that ukrainian speaking leaders don't like.

      There are some other rather nasty issues, like the nature of current protests. Lviv, the home city of the current waves of protests is the home of extreme right movement in Ukraine, borderline nazi movement that wants to purge everyone ranging from russian-speaking minority to jewish and polish minorities. They have about 8% popular support across Ukraine but well in excess of 20% in their hometown of Lviv. They have been a very important power behind mobilizing the current protests, and they also appear to be the ones turning them violent.

      Majority of those protesting just want a more EU-like rule. Less corruption, more wealth to the citizens. This is actually one thing that likely unites both the part of the nation protesting and one that is not - they all agree that government is corrupt and want better rule. It's just that pro-Western leaders that were in power for years before showed to be even more corrupt then current leadership, so options are pretty slim.

      Also Eastern russian speaking part of the country is calm - it's actually industrialized and manufactures a lot of high tech things such as military helicopter engines for Russia's Mil helicopters. They have a very healthy export economy and they need good relations with Russia - Russia proposed an economic union similar to EU which would bring massive economic boon to that region. This is also why most of the Ukraine's oligarchs who own the heavy industries support the moves to approach Russia, and why they are against the EU deal - they need the current deal with Russia so that their heavy industry exports can continue. In light of the mess in Ukraine, Russia has already made some steps to isolate itself from potential fallout and parts shortage that breaking of their trade agreements with Ukraine would cause, such as laying down a new helicopter engine factory near St. Petersburg. This is very worrying for Ukrainian exporters located in the East for the obvious reasons.

      On the other hand Western ukrainian speaking half is mainly agricultural, and of those exports, they want to send as much as possible to EU as it's a very lucrative market. Right now, tariffs keep that trade low, while on Russian market they have to compete with EU companies AND Asian ones. Russian agricultural market is very lucrative, but also extremely competitive and Ukraine doesn't really have the ultra-efficiency of EU competitors, nor extremely cheap labour of the Asian countries. The deal with EU would bring at least some potential prosperity to that part of the country as Ukraine would be able to supply cheap labour-based agricultural products to EU. It's highly unlikely that any of the high-tech exports would be allowed in EU however.

      So there you have it. A country split among the linguistic, economic and ideological lines. And split is fairly even, right now it's something around 55% pro West and 45% pro East. No matter who wins in the current political struggle, half of the country will feel it lost. It's a mess. And in addition to that, no matter who it chooses economically, half of the country will likely get economically hit.

      On a final note, t

    26. Re:In other Kiev news by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You have it exactly backwards. They modernized already. Past tense. They were preparing to join the EU. An old Socialist sold them out to be the first member of Tsar Putin's New Russian Empire, instead.

    27. Re:In other Kiev news by guacamole · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you have been reading too much into protesters propaganda.

      Here an interesting link for you.

      The video clearly shows the police doing nothing to the protesters while the protesters repeatedly set the police officers ablaze with incendiary devices:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    28. Re:In other Kiev news by gman003 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Already saw that one. Yes, you can find footage of police being attacked without any apparent activity on their part. But you can find the same in reverse - police snipers shooting people who are not fighting back, or bashing people's heads in while they're already on the ground.

      This is combat. Not everyone is going to be 100% in control - you're going to have some people throwing molotovs at police because "fuck the police", just as you're going to have police brutality because "fuck protesters".

      But you know what? The protesters aren't looting buildings or destroying public property (with the exception of digging up some streets for rocks to build walls with, and one statue of Lenin). They aren't stealing TVs or clothes the way rioters did in England. They're organizing defenses, shelter, and medical aid. They're listening to speeches. They're attacking the police who have been attacking them for months. They've given the whole "peaceful protest" thing a go, and the government's response was to step up the attacks and basically start building a totalitarian regime. If they keep trying the peaceful protest route, they're just going to end up dead or in a dictatorship.

      Who are the ones hiring street thugs as muscle? The government. Who are the ones destroying hospitals or forcing doctors to not treat patients? The police. Who are the ones kidnapping and murdering people? The Berkut. Who's calling in a goddamn tank division to suppress the revolt?

      I'm listening to the protesters because, while there's always some shades of gray and no conflict is black and white, this is maybe 0xDDDDDD against 0x222222.

    29. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sometimes digging in and waiting for a better time to fight is the best you can do.

      Just bury your head in the sand, you goddamn ostrich.

    30. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your split of the country into 50/50 is completely off base. the western "nazionalistic" part comprises only 20% of the population and contributes 8% of the country's GDP. heavy industry in the east also does not comprise of "only" helicopter engines. there as well the best in the world cargo airplane design and manufacturing as well as tanks and turbines for nukelar power plants not to mention ship building docks that are the only ones in former soviet union capable of building aircraft carrier sized ships and have i mentioned already the rocket design and manufacturing that was the basis for the latetst soviet icbm line? if you would put your self to bother with research to the financing and pure control of the "opposition" parties you would find out that they are ran under polish and german leadership. the export to EU that you mention for the agricultural products is a myth that is easy to see on the example of bulgaria and romania and according to the so famous glorious EU association document were actually offered in a completely opposite direction. europe does not have a food shortage and has well protected and properly subsidised agriculture. what europe needs however is new markets to sell its stuff. on the other hand russia needs industrial power as it cannot handle everything on her own at least for now. by the way the money that russia has spent on buying ukrainian eurobonds came from selling european bonds which well makes the europe sort of pay for it anyhow...

    31. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You appear to misunderstand. I'm quoting the general split along the linguistic lines, which is about 55/45 as stated above. I also note that "high tech exports such as", which means "one of the many types of exports". It was a good example because of the recent progress with laying down new plants making similar/same product has happened recently.

      The main issue for Ukraine's high tech exports is that vast majority of them are designed for USSR-era technology and its follow-up which is mainly needed in Russia, and there's very little demand for same products in the EU.

      I don't buy the "polish and german leadership" argument. One thing about extreme nationalists that doesn't change from country to country is that they abhor foreigners of any kind. They may accept assistance to drive their goals from abroad, but they would never cede leadership. EU and US are very likely to be financing the opposition, but they are highly unlikely to be in position to control it. Otherwise they would never have allowed the situation to go as bad as it is today - it's massively against EU's interests to have Ukraine sink into a civil conflict and that's where it's headed now.

      On the last note, I live in Finland, and I have been seeing East European products (which due to our small market size relative to rest of Europe are generally not repackaged, but simply have stickers with description in our state languages, finnish and swedish glued onto the original East European package) show up in increasing amounts on market shelves, typically displacing the spanish, french, italian and other south European produce. So while they're definitely not "instantly there", they are slowly edging in and taking their share of the market.

    32. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's a bit more complicated than that.

      Yes, the east/west division (this is simplified, as Western and Transcarpathian Ukraine are somewhat different, and north/south differences also exist - but it's good enough in first approximation) is an important factor. But I wouldn't say that people in the east are all that supportive of Yanukovich, or that they want to merge with Russia. What they do not want is an "Ukraine for Ukrainians", where there's only one state language and one officially recognized nationality, and anyone who doesn't conform is persecuted or forced to leave.

      Now the problem is that the most active/visible part of the opposition on the streets (i.e. the guys throwing Molotov cocktails), initially at least, was from far right Ukrainian nationalist parties. If you watch the footage closely you can see them - e.g. look at this photo, and note the celtic cross and 14/88 on the makeshift shield of one of the guys.

      Note, this does not imply that ALL opposition are neo-nazis. There are a lot of folks who are just generally nationalist or westerner in outlook there, and some who don't care one way or the other but got sick and tired of all the corruption in power. However, the neo-nazis are the ones most willing to get onto the barricades and into the fight - and since media generally focused on the more "exciting" parts of the conflict, they end up featuring the neo-nazis more prominently than anyone else. This, in turn, gets many folks in the east nervous. So they don't so much support Yanukovich as tolerate him as a bad option that is still better than the neo-nazis.

      Lately, however, their government has done the stupidest thing possible: they have enacted all those new oppressive laws, let the special units off the leash, and even started extrajudicial death squad style hunting down of activists (two protesters were dragged out under gunpoint from the hospital they were treated in; one later found dead and with signs of torture in a nearby forest). So now a lot of people who were on the fence or leaning towards status quo on the basis of stability and personal security are reevaluating things, and Yanukovich is losing popular support everywhere.

    33. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      why the Party of Regions is doing this, considering one of their platforms is supposedly tighter European integration.

      Party of Regions is basically a populist party that is vaguely pro-Russian.

    34. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I just wish they could finally figure out that one unified country doesn't really work so well for them, and broker some sort of confederation agreement if not outright split into two countries. It's not simple as the language/religion/culture divide between east and west is a gradient with no clear border (Kiev is actually somewhere close to the 50/50 zone), but it can still be worked out, and surely it's better than a civil war, which is where they seem to be heading.

    35. Re:In other Kiev news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the old using some of the young to do their dirty work.

    36. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The problem, as it often is, that arguments tend to polarize people over time if they are not solved. Most people in Ukraine view themselves as Ukrainians, not Russians, or Poles, or Jews, or Lviv residents or whatever. They're Ukrainians.

      But their trio of leaders, in their desperate struggle for power focused on dividing rather than uniting people, which is actually a Western model of gathering votes. Focus on your own group and those who doubt and show them how strongly you defend them against "those others who vote for the other guy and are actually your enemies".

      In a way, it's a pretty big warning sign for that kind of political approach and it's recent wide adoption in the West. When it blows in your face eventually, explosion is spectacular and deadly. We need more emphasis on consensus in politics rather than adversarial approach.

    37. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You're right, and a lot of russophones do consider themselves Ukrainians - as in, a part of a civic nation of the same name, and distinct from the Russian nation.

      Even so, when there are significant differences, there's no reason why a single nation cannot have internal subdivisions that would allow to accommodate internal cultural differences better. Switzerland comes up as an obvious example. I think that federation model would be better for Ukraine than complete separation (it would also deal with Crimea issue nicely, incl. Tatars). But I don't think it's going to happen because the more nationalist guys also tend to be more irredentist.

      The other problem is that Ukrainian nation is not fully formed as such. They didn't really exist as a truly independent nation-state for any decent amount of time up until 1991, and they were always under strong cultural influence from the more successful neighbors like Russians and Poles. So today it's not even clear what the Ukrainian nation is, and how to define it other than self-identification - but the latter doesn't work so well when people who self-identify as such immediately turn around and refuse others to self-identify the same on the basis of some fundamental disagreement.

      So you end up with models being proposed that are defined as negation of something else. E.g. the popular cliche of Ukrainian as NOT Russian (and, sometimes, NOT Polish). So you end up with silliness when kids are told that their name "Mikhail" is wrong, and they and other kids should refer to them as "Mykhailo", because to do otherwise is not "proper Ukrainian". The other side is not as extreme in this, but there's also some current to define themselves in terms of "we are not them".

      They really need to figure all that stuff out before they can have a healthy single state. Ideally, of course, they could just set it aside and start from the clean slate, through self-identification. But I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

    38. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      The problem with Swiss model, is that to work rather than cause the country to sink even further into opposition, is that such a democracy has to come from within.

      All former SSRs, including Russia, had democracy effectively forced upon them at economic gunpoint in 1990s. As a result, it became something dramatically different from what it is in the West. Similar effect is seen in almost all countries where such a democratic transformation has happened - it takes a very much local flavour. Japan is a good example of this, there is effectively no democracy there to speak of. Same party has ruled the country for half a century with only one period of not being the ruler. Effective governance is done in a very japanese way, which is through personal connections, massive nepotism and very little of consultation with populace over actual points of importance. It's not even allowed to have proper campaigning in Japan - most campaigns even for high level posts are effectively vans with loudspeakers driving around blasting the election greetings of the candidate.

      This is the issue that has doomed essentially all attempts of "democratization" in known history. The issue appears that even our own governments started to believe their own propaganda that democracy is some kind of universal panacea to political problems, and started exporting it as such, completely ignoring decades of utter failures. Another good example of this failure happening in a much more dramatic fashion is the state of Arab states after their Arab spring. Democracy merely brought out the massive internal problems and within a few years, most of the countries are far worse off than they were under dictatorships, both for the upper echelons of society and ordinary people.

      Democracy cannot be exported. It must be allowed to grow from within. Countries such as Switzerland are a good example of just how stable and functional democracy is when it is allowed to do so.

    39. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      All former SSRs, including Russia, had democracy effectively forced upon them at economic gunpoint in 1990s.

      Almost, but not quite. People were very much ready and willing to explore true democracy in late 80s and early 90s. What they didn't want is economic liberalism, almost to the point of laissez-faire. Or rather quite a few did without understanding what it actually implies, but when they saw it for themselves they changed their mind... but the people in charge kept the ship on that course (largely under advice from prominent Western politicians, think tanks and economic bodies). Unfortunately, because the same people were also the most visible and prominent proponents of democracy, the two issues became strongly linked - and the extreme dissatisfaction with economic liberalism dragged democracy down with it. But it didn't have to be that way, and democratization could well be successful if the new powers had instead embarked on a slow and steady program of economic reforms that would liberalize the market where it makes sense, but keep the social welfare system intact.

    40. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Can you list any successful democratizations in recent history that did not include home grown democracy being the one actually taking root?

      This is the problem I have with this kind of thinking. As the old saying goes, road to hell is paved with good intentions. You are absolutely correct on the links between the antipods of free capitalism and democracy. But that doesn't remove my main point - that democracy is by far and large not exportable.

      I genuinely cannot recall any such examples. Pretty much the closest we got was Japan and South Korea, which are corporatist/fascist states with surface democratic elements. About the only example that comes close enough is Spain, but democratic movement was never forced on it - it grew from within as opposition to Franco's rule and emerged slowly after his death. Franco's dictatorship was actually widely accepted and embraced by both European and North American democracies. Spain's democracy emerged as a home grown movement.

    41. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      My point was that democracy was home grown in the USSR in late 80s - there's plenty of samizdat to show that, and of course Gorbachev's reforms were also home grown. But not some of the negative things that accompanied it and caused its downfall (which is why today it is often remembered as or presented to as some cunning Western plan to destabilize the country).

    42. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      I think you misunderstand the situation then. Democracy was not home grown - it was pushed by a small minority as a solution to situation that arose after the fall of Soviet Union effectively at economic gunpoint. West told Russia that to get financial support it desperately needed at the time, it would have to have democratic reforms. Self published literature is not what drives democracy - people's will and readiness to accept the responsibility for choosing their leaders is. Otherwise we could be claiming that there is plenty of evidence that Europe is turning home grown Salafi islamic or ultra nationalist now - there is plenty of self-published protest literature about that after all. But real support for those is marginal at best.

      Most people just wanted an exit from extreme poverty caused by collapse of Soviet Union, and democracy with capitalism was marketed to them successfully as a solution. Putin's continuous democratic election to power shows the fact that Russians do not want the Western style democracy - they want a strong authoritarian leader. Of those who don't like Putin, most approve of his methods - they just don't approve of results, such as the fact that country is still very poor, corruption is still endemic is so on.

      The small minority that doesn't approve is his methods and gets a lot of time in the press here in the West doesn't really have any meaningful support in the country. The real opposition is Communists and they do approve of the methods - they just want the power to be shared with them and they push at lack of results in certain areas, such as eradication of poverty and endemic corruption.

    43. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I grew up in the USSR during that period...

      Democracy was home grown, and it did not arise "after the fall of the USSR" - people were demanding it long before that. Literature was just one symptom of it, but it was all really "in the air" in, say, 1991.

      Putin's continuous democratic election shows that the majority (not all) Russians today don't want "Western style democracy". Which is true, but this is an outcome of the experiments with it in the 90s. It does not prove anything about the earlier period.

    44. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You actually touch upon my point, but miss it because of your bias. Western style democracy was pushed upon Russia, marketed as a solution to it's problems after USSR's collapse.

      It failed, as all such pushes did in the history. This is my argument - democracy must be born from within, and be of a flavour that is local. Otherwise it either evolves into surface democracy where the real power structure remains largely the same as before (Russia, Japan, South Korea), or it simply collapses (Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc).

      To reach stability levels of Swiss democracy, you must have that democracy be born in your country, out of the will of its people. Democracy in Russia stood no chance - there never was any kind of meaningful democratic movement there that was local. Such movements take time to form, and there wasn't any. They were instead sold the exported Western democracy model, which occupied those who could have worked on making Russia's own style democracy, effectively subverting the process and starting the "experiments" as you put it, which were doomed to failure from the start.

    45. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Democracy was seriously discussed, and widely approved of, in the USSR long before the collapse of the latter. Gorbachev's early reforms were met with extreme enthusiasm, that only waned when economy started crumbling.

      Is it "Western style"? Quite probably, but countries don't exist in a vacuum, and USSR/Russia was always a part of Western civilization (even in the periods when it vehemently denies that for propaganda purposes). So of course the experience of other Western countries was a direct inspiration - just as American experience was an inspiration for French, for example. But no-one "sold" us that.

    46. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Allow me to elaborate, since I clearly wasn't making my point well.

      Russian "democracy" took the standard route of democracy export from the West to the demolished but no occupied nation. The best part of this is that target never realises that it is being a target of democracy export effort when weapons are not involved (which usually means the follow-up of internal conflict of some kind, as the process requires a country with severely damaged economy).

      First, you present the intelligencia and leaders with the fact that West is far more wealthy and far more powerful. You show this off to them, and force them to come face to face with reality that their culture and system is worse.
      Second, you support these people in their own country, allowing them to work as your missionaries. You know that they will pass on your system because that is what you took such great pains to showcase to them. This also serves the illusion of "local" to the common people.
      Third, you ramp up support for those who are your missionaries, allowing them to easily overtake those who attempt to find a truly local solution with vastly superior funds. Most Western countries also have very tight protections from this stage by blocking, or requiring registration of foreign entities (i.e. US foreign agents legislation).
      Fourth, you give cheap loans and other economic assistance to target country clearly indicating that requirement for these loans is democratic progress. This ensures that local economy cannot use its own funds to recover, as you offer them a far more efficient route. The catch is that people you hand picked for the job, who have prophesised about greatness of democracy will lead which is easy - your cheap loans and support show the locals that they were right - West is a benevolent benefactor who wants to help them, and missionaries telling them about greatness of democracy were correct. As a result, this step also carries an illusion of being a "local movement supported by benevolent West".
      Fifth, you tighten the reigns over those who are now in power. You generally avoid using stick such as funding cuts instead sticking to carrots, like more trips for "consultation on proper implementation of democracy" to steer the country in desired direction. This ensures that path stays to what West chose, instead of taking a local direction.

      Russia was a text book example of a successful Western democracy export. It had all the telltale signs, including the economic follow up where West gets to effectively pillage the target country after Westernization opens up the markets. We are really good at doing this and we have a lot of experience.

      Now, allow me to present you with example of locally grown democracy, which has been slowly demolished very recently by Westernization of locally grown democratic system.

      Turkey.

      Kemal Ataturk understood his country very well. He was pushed down the Westernization route, but state of Europe after World War one basically prevented step two, enabling local influence to prevail, and allowing Kemalist democratic structure to emerge instead of Western one.

      Under Kemalism, Ataturk understood that his country was uniquely positioned in that it would remain extremely religious and dangerously close to sinking into theocracy under democratic rule due to realities of demographics of the country. As a result, democracy that took shape was shaped as purely secular, and with army as enforcement arm of secularism, preventing theocratic forces from winning democratic elections and then essentially shutting down democratic system, not unlike Hitler did in Germany in 1933-1934.

      This system functionally allowed Turkey to have a democratic system in a country where majority would have in fact preferred a theocratic rule but accepted democracy as a good enough substitute. Every time a party with theocratic goals got elected and started progressing the goal of going down the transforming Turkey into theocracy, army would interfere, overthrow the elected government, re-es

    47. Re:In other Kiev news by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I do admire Ataturk a great deal, but I strongly disagree that the model of democracy that he ended up arranging in Turkey is "local, clearly non-Westernized bent". On the contrary, it is Western to the core, and is quite explicit about that. The fact that army would occasionally intervene into politics to ensure that they remain democratic and secular is not specific to Turkey, it's just that, their democracy being less mature, it happened more often and more recently.

      I would like to point out, however, that USSR under Gorbachev was significantly ahead of Turkey under Ataturk in terms of Westernization. The majority of the population - not just intelligentsia, but proletariat as well - were preferring democracy. That's why there was such a wide support for reforms on all levels of society. It was not "reforms from above" (well, it started that way, but the grassroots wave had quickly overtaken the official process).

    48. Re:In other Kiev news by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You confuse face value with real one. Kemalism had several aspects to it which is completely abhorrent to Western democracy. This is what EU required to be changed.

      Same thing with Russia. You pay far too much attention to face value. I strongly recommend examining the issue in more depth.

    49. Re:In other Kiev news by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Hey, there. Just so you have a more lucid dialog than some coward throwing insults, let's touch up on this subject.

      1) Of course Russia isn't behind the protests. They'd be on the other side of the fence and be the ones behind outlawing protests to keep Yanukovych, who is pro-Russia, in power and the undercut the power of the protestors and the western half of the country that isn't too friendly with Russia.

      2)

      Much more likely, unfortunately, is that Russia keeps a tight grip on Ukraine.

      You DO realize that the USSR broke up and Ukraine is it's own nation now, right?
      I mean, I get your overall point. That the EU is not some holy divine savior and joining the EU might not be the best for Ukraine. You're acusing them of backing or instigating these riots. But you also don't believe that Russia has anything to do with this turmoil, and that Ukraine is simply fated to fall under Russian dominion. Let's talk more about that defeatist attitude:

      3) It's been a bit over a week. ONE WEEK. And in that time:

      On 28 January, 9 of the 12 anti-protest laws were repealed and Prime Minister Mykola Azarov tendered his resignation and a bill offering amnesty to arrested and charged protesters was issued.

      They got:
      - Most of the bullshit laws repealed.
      - A head position in government axed.
      - Amnesty.

      Now, Yanukovych remains, and there are still 3 bullshit laws that didn't get repealed. But do you think that all this was a pointless waste of time? Do you think they should have simply "dug in and waited"?

      This is a pretty stale thread. News keeps moving forward and introspection isn't popular these days. But I'd really appreciate it if you look back at this and realize you were simply wrong, think about why you were wrong, fix that, and be a better person for it. Some things are worth fighting for.

  8. Ability to do this was there for a while... by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Every time advertising industry develops a new way to track you, every time you unquestionably surrender your data in exchange for some trendy app you invite and enable this kind of abuse. The only defense is strong privacy laws and consumer push-back against tracking.

    Why this technology exists? Because people accepted invasion of privacy from pioneers like Foursquare, so it was feasible to commercially develop this technology to the point where any totalitarian government can purchase 'turnkey solution' for a couple millions. Now every Banana Republic dictator can deploy it against unwilling citizens.

    1. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      The tools for totalitarian rule in the West and other parts of the world are being delivered "for your convenience." Some government assembly required.

      You do yourself and your freedom a favor to keep a cash economy viable. Online tracking by companies for profiling is already too powerful.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

      Now every Banana Republic dictator can deploy it against unwilling citizens.

      True, but you have to admit they had great catalogs.

    3. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do yourself and your freedom a favor to keep a cash economy viable.

      Great advice for those /. posters living in third world countries.

    4. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Who wouldn't enjoy the government's finger on a kill switch for all your electronic transactions? That is harder to do with cash.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    5. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      Who wouldn't enjoy the government's finger on a kill switch for all your electronic transactions? That is harder to do with cash.

      Non sequitur. Not the logic kind, the literary kind.

    6. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      It may seem like that if you aren't following the conversation.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    7. Re:Ability to do this was there for a while... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cold, you're doing it wrong. You're supposed to be trolling pro-NSA. Or did you guys get who's supposed to say what mixed up again?

  9. Time for another revolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Passing laws against protests is a good time for last revolution attempt. If not now, then the laws will just get stricter, increaing internal control, and bringing back all the CCCP mechanism of oppression.

  10. Article completely misquotes NYT by aviators99 · · Score: 3, Informative

    TFA say:

    The NY Times reports that the "Ukrainian government used telephone technology to pinpoint the locations of cell phones in use near clashes between riot police officers and protesters early on Tuesday."

    The NY Times does not say that at all. It does say what the summary says. According to the NYT, The carriers claim that they did not give location data to the government, and that a "pirate cell tower" was used.

    1. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by weilawei · · Score: 1

      What part of "the Ukrainian government used telephone technology" implies that the carriers gave location data to the government? You may assume, but it does not logically imply it. That says that the Ukrainian government used the technology, not the carriers. Otherwise it might read, "the Ukrainian government received location information from cell phone carriers".

    2. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Use of "telephone technology" doesn't mean the carriers gave it to them.

      It means, you know, they used telephone technology. A 'pirate cell tower' -- still telephone technology.

      And, really, we know damned well that Western agencies are using the fake cell towers at demonstrations and for surveillance for more or less the same purpose. So except for the magnitude of the response (which I wouldn't rule out in the West either) ... this is no different from what we know is already being done elsewhere.

      As long as we continue to act like this is a legitimate thing to do, other countries will say "it is when we do it as well".

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by weilawei · · Score: 2

      I did a bit more digging. It turns out that the NYT edited their article after that was quoted by TFA. TFA was correct, and if you google that phrase, you'll find it quoted elsewhere, by many many other sources. The NYT deigned not to mention their edit.

    4. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      How easy is it to set up a fake tower? Could somebody set one up at home and intercept all their neighbors telephone calls? Could a company set one up in an office building and monitor all their employees telephone calls?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    5. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      How easy is it to set up a fake tower?

      Well, that depends: did you bring the money in wheelbarrows, trucks, or shipping containers?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by aviators99 · · Score: 1

      I believe you'd only need a microcell or two for something like this, assuming it's a smallish area. Looks like the people are pretty densely situated.

    7. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This easy.
      From DEFcon 18. And to answer your question: YES!

    8. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by M0HCN · · Score: 4, Informative

      OpenBTS, some SDR boards, a bulding overlooking the site, total cost maybe $5K or so and a week or so of codesmithing.

      The trick is to jam the 3 and 4G services so as to force the phones to fall back on basic GSM with its notoriously broken authentication and crypto. For someone who can afford a handful of Ettus research products this is not a big deal to pull off.

      Of course the other trick is to not get caught by the powers that be, unless of course you are the powers that be....

      73 Dan.

    9. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is not a 'pirate tower' when the government is operating it. It is a 'electronic surveillance tower'. A police state doesn't need to mess around with carriers when they have their own tower(s). Useful, as there are so many carriers...

    10. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      For a government intelligence agency that does that sort of thing as a part of their mission? Easy. It's what they do. You can likely bring one in a truck/several trucks for better coverage.

    11. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      They would not contradict each other had they said "location" rather than "locations", the "pinpoint" they used was likely the footprint of a portable cell tower they set up themselves. If the potable tower gives a stronger signal that the fixed commercial one then the phones will register on it and the goons can mass SMS the crowd. Communication between crowd and government is vital if you want the violence to subside, but just telling them to go home without any hint of concessions is likely to make things worse.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    12. Re:Article completely misquotes NYT by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Apparently, not too difficult.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
  11. hipsters just love their phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's so sad. The only way to get a hipster's attention is through their phone.

    Hipster Tip: put phone on vibrate, shove it down your pants. Then you'll enjoy it when the government is fucking you!

    1. Re:hipsters just love their phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hipsters already enjoy it when the govt fucks them, thats why so many are Democrats.

  12. Why use your real identity? by acidradio · · Score: 1

    Someday I'm just going to buy a prepaid mobile phone. And register it to:

    Joseph Biden
    9800 Savage Road
    Ft. George G. Meade, MD 20755-6623

    [I'll save you the Google lookup - that's the NSA headquarters]

    1. Re:Why use your real identity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, that's like, fraud.

    2. Re:Why use your real identity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, that's like, fraud.

      It isn't like fraud. It is fraud. Nevermind that I am not certain you can even get a prepaid phone without registering it to a credit card or band account anymore.

    3. Re:Why use your real identity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, yes, you can still. You can even register it to any name and address you like, and this is in the US.

    4. Re:Why use your real identity? by reikae · · Score: 1

      Why would you need to register it? I fairly recently bought a prepaid SIM card with cash, no names asked. Unless the registration was part of the joke, in that case I'm sorry :)

    5. Re:Why use your real identity? by SleazyRidr · · Score: 1

      But, when the NSA tracks you, they'll find out that you're not really Joe Biden, and charge you with fraud.

  13. Phone tracking and the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you know the USA was the FIRST nation on Earth that passed a law demanding that EVERY mobile phone sold in America would be constantly location tracked, multiple times a minute, if the phone had any capability of communicating with local cell towers? The excuse for this NSA demanded feature? Well the sheeple of the USA were told such functionality was essential in case a 911 caller used a mobile, but was unable, for any reason, to describe their current position.

    The new law FORCED every phone company in the USA to provide direct connections from their computers to NSA facilities, so the NSA had complete access to the location of every mobile phone, in real-time.

    Now, for a time, US movies and TV shows, aware of the implications of mobile phone tracking, used plots based around the fact that the ownership of a mobile phone was the same as having a location tracking bug on the person. Stories with hackers had their targets constantly pinpointed via their phone. Law enforcement drams, likewise, reminded viewers that a mobile phone would be the main downfall of the stupid criminal. Then everything changed.

    The US government contacted every major entertainment and media outlet in the USA, and demanded that they no longer informed their viewers of the tracking features of mobile phones. The excuse was that real 'criminals' and 'terrorists' were covering their tracks more efficiently because they realised the vulnerability of mobile phones, and the reason for this caution was the constant dramatic reminders of cell phone location tracking.

    During the last few years, films and TV shows made in the USA have SPECIFICALLY informed viewers that ordinary mobile phones do NOT location track the user- an out and out lie. In the US remake of 'Shameless', the ultra-intelligent 'hacker' kid is attempting to find the location of a person trapped in a shipping container on the back of a truck travelling in the USA. The 'hacker' has contact with the person via his mobile phone, but at no time does the hacker state the mobile phone can be used to identify the current location of the trapped person.

    During the same year, there was a major Hollywood movie about a person kidnapped and held prisoner in the trunk of a moving car. She has a mobile phone and calls 911. Over and over, the film states that unless a mobile phone has a functioning GPS chip, its location cannot be found. The entire conceit of the movie revolves around the rescue, by the 911 operator, of the victim. The film, a major movie called "THE CALL", was specifically designed to mislead the average US viewer as to the location tracking capabilities of their mobile phone.

    Now the suggestion that the 'location' of a mobile phone is enough for law enforcement to have evidence of a crime by the owner is EXACTLY THE SAME as US courts who permit prosecution of copyright infringements, because a given IP address has been recorded by an ISP as having been part of a BitTorrent. The USA, via monsters like Obama, set this precedent that Team Putin is taking advantage of in the Ukraine.

    And by the way, the Ukraine will be traded for Syria. Team Obama will get their way, and will carry out a holocaust via the largest air bombardment seen in Human History, in Syria, and Putin will complete his recapture of the Ukraine. Putin's victory will cost thousands of lives at most. Obama will murder more than ONE MILLION Syrians within the first month of his air based holocaust.
       

    1. Re:Phone tracking and the USA by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      During the last few years, films and TV shows made in the USA have SPECIFICALLY informed viewers that ordinary mobile phones do NOT location track the user- an out and out lie

      What the hell are you talking about? Special Agent McGee does this like, eight times every damn episode.

    2. Re:Phone tracking and the USA by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      Now take you pill and return to the privacy of your padded cell.

    3. Re:Phone tracking and the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, the very tired "I don't agree with you so you must need mental help" ploy.

  14. issues they're fighting over by Katatsumuri · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't fully understand the ideological issues they're fighting over

    A quick summary:

    The protests started small and peaceful when president Yanukovich bowed to Russian pressure and reversed the political course away from signing the association agreement and trade deal with EU. Many people had high hopes for that and got disappointed. Still, the protests were in 10,000 people bracket, demanding to keep the EU course, and were almost dissolving in a few weeks, except for a few die-hard fans.

    But then the rulers decided they could simply "clean up" the remaining protesters at night using riot police. They beat up the poor guys (mostly students) badly. Dozens of people were heavily injured and had to stay in hospital. A few have gone missing. Extreme unjustified brutality was filmed on multiple cameras.

    That's when the protests scaled up to 500,000 people at some points. They also formed militia troops from ex-military to keep them safe. And the demands shifted from the EU topic to the replacement and punishment of the police minister, prime minister, and possibly the president. Still, the protests were largely peaceful, they were just not going to dissolve this time. And the president chose to ignore them completely and wait it out. It's winter, after all.

    After two months of waiting, seeing people won't go home, they decided to criminalize the protests, free speech in press and social media, and a whole range of other common freedoms, giving more power to the police at the same time. Bypassing all due procedures (not even counting votes), a 10-pack of corresponding laws was passed. Then everyone with a brain saw it was sliding towards a dictatorship, and disagreements with the riot police got hotter and hotter, until it eventually came to tear gas on one side and Molotov cocktails on the other side, and now also bullets.

    If you want more detail, browse the BBC new archives, their coverage is generally good. The only common mistake in Western press is that they still call these protests "pro-EU", when in fact now it's more "anti-Yanukovitch and his party". The most active protesters are from the nationalist right wing and are strongly against any union either with EU or with Russia. And the bigger, more peaceful crowd is also more concerned about overthrowing the oppressive government right now, and discuss the foreign policy later.

    1. Re:issues they're fighting over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that, and the generally poor state of the Ukrainian economy, and a pack of brutal thieves at the top with no respect to the law or the people.

    2. Re:issues they're fighting over by gman003 · · Score: 1

      I knew most of that, I just figured there had to be something more to the government's response than just "fuck protesters, let's just kill them". Still a very excellent summary of the situation, presents everything in a more understandable way.

    3. Re:issues they're fighting over by ThatsDrDangerToYou · · Score: 1

      ^-- mod up Informative!

    4. Re:issues they're fighting over by Katatsumuri · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are two things more to explain the occasional over-reacting with the police force.

      1. President Yanukovich comes from the east-Ukrainian criminal clan. He has served two terms in prison (IIRC for street robbery), which were later officially discarded with some help from his high-standing friends, allowing him to take high posts and even become a President. He received financial and other support from other ex-clan members (now respectable businessmen) and from Russia, who saw him as a better alternative to the nationalist candidates. East Ukraine voted for him and his party because they are easterners and they speak Russian. He has a deadly mix of "never give in" mentality and unconditional arrangements with his backers, so he generally doesn't like to negotiate with anyone. He also has full control over the Parliament majority and the court system, making him a de-facto dictator, so he also seldom has any need to negotiate.

      2. Not everyone is happy with Yanukovich's heavy and greedy rule, even in his environment, so there is an off chance someone occasionally mis-informs him, provoking controversial situations.

    5. Re:issues they're fighting over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Compared to Ukraine, the US is the land of justice. We have:

      • - regular raider takeovers of property and business, aided by the police and court system
      • - very public unpunished cases of lethal car accidents with rich/influential drivers
      • - President's family and friends controlling a large part of the enterprise
    6. Re:issues they're fighting over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We've got all of that. The difference is in degree, not in kind. I wish you the best of luck, for we're all in this boat together.

    7. Re:issues they're fighting over by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a former Ukrainian living now in Australia. I follow the situation and I can confirm the description is precise.

    8. Re:issues they're fighting over by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The way I've heard this described by some people from eastern Ukraine is that it's not that they like Yanukovich. It's that if the choice is between him and someone from UNA-UNSO (or even UDAR, which, despite being formally a pro-European democratic party, has shown to be quite nationalist if not downright racist in practice), they'll pick him. But now that he's set the course on to a full-fledged dictatorship, that may well change.

    9. Re:issues they're fighting over by Katatsumuri · · Score: 1

      Yes, many people in eastern Ukraine perceive anyone who speaks Ukrainian as an ultra-nationalist. One has to wonder how xenophobic and illogical is that, Ukrainian being the primary state language. They prefer to elect a twice-convicted criminal only because he comes from the East and speaks Russian. The choice at the time was between Victor Yanukovich and Yulia Tymoshenko, who has nothing whatsoever to do with the nationalist movement.

      Among the current opposition leaders, the only one who can be described as a right-wing nationalist is Oleg Tyagnybok and his Svoboda movement. They had some loud antisemitism-related scandals. Klychko and UDAR are nothing like that, being modern pro-european centrists. Yatsenyuk with Bat'kivschyna block are the successors of Yulia Tymoshenko, also quite moderate.

      There are occasional racism-related crimes in Ukraine, but race could never be a political driver because there are simply too few people of racial minorities in Ukraine. Nationalism is something different.

  15. Why Ukraine is a mess by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

    I've been many times to Ukraine, although the last time I went there was 8 years ago and I have no reason to return any time soon. I was actually in the country, by blind chance, during the Orange Revolution in 2004 and had a chance to see it first hand and talk to various Ukrainians at the time. Everybody knew the election results were crooked, even those who liked the original outcome, and the result was that when the army refused to intervene and the police decided to stay out too and the Ukrainian Supreme Court demanded another election, Viktor Yushchenko won.

    Yushchenko was a friend of the West (EU and USA) and while as best I can tell he had served competently as Prime Minister in the past, he was as incompetent a man as could ever be put into the presidency. His incompetency led to Yulia Tymoshenko (the Sarah Palin of Ukraine) exploiting the situation and trying to grab power legally via the office of Prime Minister. Under enormous pressure and horrible circumstances she negotiated a truly horrible long term deal with Russia to pay historically high prices for natural gas. This deal quickly haunted Ukraine as natural gas market prices fell far below what Ukraine was now legally obligated to pay their "friends" in Russia. This deal has had a very large and very negative impact on the Ukrainian economy as they can't live without the natural gas and are still obligated to pay prices far above current market prices to Mother Russia for it.

    Yushchenko made some feeble attempts to implement true reform and start cracking down on corruption, but when faced with opposition he quickly gave up and nothing really changed. Tymoshenko refused to cooperate with him, trying to position herself for a future run for president. The Sarah Palin link is pretty accurate with the exception that Palin probably knows on some level that she can't ever be president (too polarizing and even a majority of her own party don't back or respect her), Tymoshenko's ego refused to allow her to cooperate with Yushchenko, so they became bitter enemies and in fact Yushchenko was forced at one time to get his mortal electoral enemy, Viktor Yanukovych (the current president and loser of the 2004 re-vote), to serve as Prime Minister as working with him seemed better than working with the self-serving Tymoshenko.

    Yushchenko ran for a 2nd term and since he and Tymoshenko hated each other so much, they split the anti-Yanukovych vote with Tymoshenko coming out on the better end of that split. The country is roughly half pro-Russian thanks to the Krushchev era decision to enlarge the Ukrainian SSR with what had always been Russian speaking and ethnically Russian lands. The half of the country that considers itself Ukrainian is pro-EU and very anti-Russia, remembering well how poorly Ukrainians were treated in the USSR days (even today most Russians think of them as being something like country bumpkins or rednecks). The country is roughly split 50-50 along those lines, so when the pro-EU side has no unified candidate (Yushchenko and Tymoshenko hated each other so much that neither would give up a run for the presidency to consolidate behind the other), the pro-Russia side wins. Yanukovych is fairly smart and devious but he fails to realize that the pro-EU half of Ukraine still has no unified candidate to oppose him (there are currently roughly 3 candidates splitting support), so while half the country hates him, they can't get enough votes to defeat him in the next presidential election (2015 I think). Unfortunately Yanukovych is an old school, Soviet era politician and he remembers the failure of the 2004 cheating to give him the handoff victory he expected (he was the handpicked choice of the outgoing president), so he is going to change the game where the opposition simply cannot legally mount the kind of protests they need to get rid of him. Since the various self-serving members of the pro-EU side refuse to unite behind a single candidate, the pro-EU opposition remains hopelessly split and unable to effect c

    1. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Ukrainian public better get their guns out and start fighting as the government already has declared war on them or plan on being a russian satellite, with the corresponding repression, forever and their children's forever.

    2. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The American public better get their guns out and start fighting as the government already has declared war on them, with the corresponding repression, forever and their children's forever.

      FTFY.

    3. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Part of the fault would be that of the pro-EU part of the country still wanting to keep Russian parts of the country in Ukraine, rather than letting them secede & rejoin Russia. If the majority of Crimeans or people in Kharkov are Russians, might as well let Russia have those areas.

      But one thing - since 1991, people in different Soviet republics have migrated back to their native republics. For instance, Kazakhstan in 1991 was

      Hasn't that been the trend even more in the European part of the Ex-USSR? One would think that Russians in Latvia, for instance, would have left that place by now. Similarly, if most Ukrainians in other republics returned to the Ukraine, they could help make it more Ukrainian.

      But back to my original point - those Ukrainians who want to de-Russify Ukraine can't do it as long as 1/2 the country is Russian - giving them a good chance of dominating the country and rolling it back into Russia. They should let go of the Crimea and other areas that are Russian, and then go all Ukrainian. Just like Kazakhstan is now less likely to be Russified, w/ Kazakhs having become 70% of the population.

    4. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by unixisc · · Score: 1
      I dunno what happened, but should have been

      For instance, Kazakhstan in 1991 was 47% Russian and 44% Kazakh. Today, it is 70% Kazakh, since most Kazakhs from other republics have returned there, most Uzbeks have returned to Uzbekistan, most Russians have returned to Russia and so on.

    5. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by estestvoispytatel · · Score: 1

      The divide between the parts of the country is not that big actually. As far as I remember, in the last more or less adequate poll before Yanukovich's U-turn about integration with the EU, the numbers were like 35% for joining the EU (as a strategic goal maybe 10 or 15 years later, not about the current agreement on association, which was nearly signed couple of months ago), 28 against, and the rest is undecided or not care about it. So, it's not the case of 90% in the East strictly for Russia, 90% in the West for the Europe, the difference between them is slightly more than 10%.

    6. Re:Why Ukraine is a mess by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      It's not quite as simple because there are several factors at play here, and they don't all coincide.

      A person can self-identify as Ukrainian (ethnically), but still claim Russian as a native/home language. A lot of people claim bilingualism, but predominantly use Russian. Then there's the whole mess with the three major churches: two Orthodox, one being the official branch of the Russian church, the other one schismatic with its own patriarch, and then the Greek Catholic church that's very popular in the West - but again there are people of all walks of life in all three of these.

      They could be a successful civic nation state if they focused more on self-identity and less on language and ethnicity, taking Ireland as a model. Irish had as much if not more bitter history with UK as Ukraine did with Russia, but when they became independent they did not declare Irish to be the only official language; they accorded that status to English as well, and most Irish still speak mostly English. That does not preclude them from having their own very strong and distinct national identity.

      A lot of Russophones in the East would actually prefer to live in a country separate from Russia, and quite a few want it to be more Westernized, too. But they don't want to give up their language and culture for the sake of that. The more radical nationalists from the West, though, have "Ukraine for Ukrainians" as their ideal role model, and can be quite offensive to anyone who does not support it in any way, shape or form - e.g. insulting people for speaking Russian.

  16. NO NO NO by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

    You gotta do it right its

    DUDE!! Your getting a CELL!!

    --
    Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    1. Re:NO NO NO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to invoice me a US$50.00 charge

      FTFY. Bill is in the mail.

  17. On this trend of supressing the right to protest by vivaoporto · · Score: 1

    Creating draconian laws to supress the right to peaceful assemble and protest is an increasing (and worrying) trend.

    It happens all across the globe and it is mostly as a reactive mechanism from the governments against the number of massive popular protests facilitated (but not created or organized) by the social media.

    Some examples of these protests (there are others, these are from the top of my head):

    February 15, 2003 anti-war protest: The February 15, 2003 anti-war protest was a coordinated day of protests across the world in which people in more than 600 cities expressing opposition to the imminent Iraq War. (...) According to BBC News, between six and ten million people took part in protests in up to sixty countries over the weekend of the 15th and 16th; other estimates range from eight million to thirty million.

    The 2011 Egyptian protests (better known by the "Tahrir Square" protests): In February 1st alone "[t]he BBC reported the number of protesters in Tahrir Square ranged from "more than 100,000 to some 250,000-the square's maximum capacity." Egyptian security forces stated that 500,000 people participated in the protests in Cairo alone."

    2011-12 Spanish protests (The "indignados"): According to statistics published by RTVE, the Spanish public broadcasting company, between 6.5 and 8 million Spaniards have participated in these protests:

    2013 protests in Brazil: In June 20 alone "Protests in over 100 cities around the country rallied over 2 million people."

    2013 protests in Turkey: 3.5 million of Turkey's 80 million people are estimated to have taken part in almost 5000 demonstrations across Turkey connected with the original Gezi Park protest.

    Some governments like the Syrian, the Bahraini and the new (same as old) Egyptian did not tolerate and supressed with enormous amount of brutality in the very beggining their (then) peaceful protests that were organized in a similar fashion than the ones mentioned above.

    The rest of the world governments watched and understood that they cannot afford the risk to let some small local matter (like increasing the bus fare in some cities in Brasil, or cutting down some trees in Turkey) to become the catalyst to mass protests.

    Measures like these in Ukraine will happen more and more and won't be limited to countries with nascent democracies (like Ukraine) or repressive dictactorships (like Syria). In Spain proposals were already made to criminalize and regulate forms of protest. Thailand invoked "security laws" to curb theirs.

    And without a doubt most other countries, eastern and western alike, will change their legislations, enact new laws and enforce old ones to ensure one thing: that the massive indignation and lack of confidence in the democratic process won't become a full blown revolution.

  18. Welcome to East Germany! by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 0

    Our chief weapons are Fear, Torture, and using mass media advertising beacon triangulation software to categorize you "shoppers" for mass extermination - um "reeducation" - in concentration camps - um, "citizenship experience chambers".

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  19. Trivial technique by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Police do this all the time. Set up a strong fake cell transmitter, reap the phones of everyone nearby, identify their numbers.

    Sure you could leave the phone turned off or at home if attending a demonstration, but the point of bringing it is for emergency communication and photographic documentation. The only option for would-be anonymous users is to get a cheap temporary card - and hope that the phone doesn't secretly transmit hardware IDs.

  20. Piracy turned inside out by T.E.D. · · Score: 2

    It is interesting how "piracy" originally indicated a company (group of private individuals acting cooperatively) taking property or resources a government felt belonged to it or its citizens. Now it has come to mean a government or its citizens taking what a company considers its property or resources.

  21. lrn2txt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Message from 2810:
    "It appear you are proliferating with people that go against the government you implicitly support by being a citizen, please vacate the area or your will be arrested as the vermine you are"

    Sent:
    "UR NOT THE BOZ OF M3 3"
    "gib monay nao"

  22. Imagine the Stasi with today's computing power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "And the fact that the NSA is, on pro rata of the population, 20 times smaller than the Stasi."

    How can a shill get away with saying this crap on a site for techies? This argument is so fucking weak: "don't worry about our totalitarian powers, we don't have enough manpower to really look at your data if you are not an imminent threat." Hello? Has anyone heard of these nifty devices called computers?

    No doubt, I question the morality and justness of the men and women who have assumed such insane levels of power over us, but I am even more in doubt of the algorithms that will (are?) be used to make lists.

  23. Re:Happy Wednesday from The Golden Girls! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  24. How do you know? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How do you know? How can any ordinary person possibly know, given the level of secrecy and volume of lies coming out of the government and their corporate sponsors?

    Secrecy, especially the level of secrecy our current overlords require, is simply incompatible with democracy.

    This is a basic axiom of political science.

    Until we fix the secrecy and lack of accountability for lies that supports the secrecy, any other discussion is mostly meaningless and entirely theoretical.

  25. Everybody now by elliott666 · · Score: 1

    On three everyone, reply with "Get stuffed!", one, two, three!

    Seriously though, how many SMS's would it take at once to mess with the phone infrastructure?

  26. BLUE PEOPLE GO HOEM! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And Syria for the Sirians!

  27. The irony here is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... back in 2004, at the time of the Orange Revolution, American agents were giving out free cellphones to demonstrators to help them co-ordinate their efforts.

    Ten years later, the regime has worked out how to use the same level of technology.

    Nice going. Also an illustration in the futility of messing with other countries' internal politics.

  28. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at least it wasn't mass child naked events...

  29. Not cutting-edge. SMS broadcast is in GSM standard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ability to broadcast an SMS to all mobiles connected to a cell is in the GSM standard. Who knows if Ukraine deployed their own rouge cell or they had access to cells around the area but it's not difficult for a call to broadcast to all mobiles.

    From Wikipedia:

    "Cell Broadcast/Cell Information (CB) messaging is a mobile technology feature defined by the ETSI’s GSM committee and is part of the GSM standard. It is also known as Short Message Service-Cell Broadcast (SMS-CB).

    Cell Broadcast is designed for simultaneous delivery to multiple users in a specified area. Whereas the Short Message Service-Point to Point (SMS-PP) is a one-to-one and one-to-a-few service (requires multiple SMS messages, as each message can only carry one phone number), Cell Broadcast is a one-to-many geographically focused messaging service. Cell Broadcast messaging is also supported by UMTS."

  30. a few shots from Ukraine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://flackelf.livejournal.com/365386.html