Kentucky: Programming Language = Foreign Language

jackb_guppy writes with word that "Legislation that would let students use computer programming courses to satisfy foreign-language requirements in public schools moved forward in the Kentucky Senate on Thursday." From the article: "Kentucky students must earn 22 credits to graduate high school, but 15 of those credits represent requirements for math, science, social studies and English — and college prerequisites call on students to have two credits of foreign language, [state senator David] Givens said. Meanwhile, Givens pointed to national statistics showing that less than 2.4 percent of college students graduate with a degree in computer science despite a high demand in the market and jobs that start with $60,000 salaries."

Comments

headline fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Kentucky: English Language = Foreign Language

Re:headline fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Kentucky: Language = Foreign
                    Bourbon = economy
                    Guns = Free Speech

Re:headline fix

[wonkavader]

I think you're missing the real point here. Computer languages are NOT foreign languages. Foreign languages teach mental dexterity in the verbal domain and allow people to experiences worldviews other than their own. Computer languages teach systematic thinking.

So what you really need here is:

"Kentucky: Logic = Foreign Language."

Re:headline fix

[Dunbal]

Memorizing a thousand poems will not make your mind sharper

No, but actually reading them might.

you know

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to mock kentucky, because it's the right thing to do, but this actually kind of makes some sense.

Re:you know

[MrEricSir]

Maybe, but good luck next time you're in a foreign country trying to buy food using for loops and if statements.

Re:you know

[93 Escort Wagon]

Maybe, but good luck next time you're in a foreign country trying to buy food using for loops and if statements.

You're being modded "funny" but I think you deserve "insightful".

I'm an old fart, but I really don't like the recent trend in colleges - and now high schools - where we're apparently moving towards a completely utilitarian education and away from attempting to develop well-rounded individuals and citizens.

It's not all about money and what kind of job you have.

And I must admit... I wonder if we nerds are at least partially to blame. Engineers and computer geeks often tend towards an almost Aspergers-like tunnel vision.

Re:you know

[Rising Ape]

That's a very valid point, but what I remember of modern language teaching at school (French in my case) was very utilitarian. Just lots of vocabulary, conjugation rules etc. to memorise - all how to speak the language but very little as to why you'd want to bother and little of intellectual interest. Latin was better, in that we actually looked at examples of Latin literature and poetry and the Roman civilisation. Shame the language was much harder, with all the noun declensions and so forth.

All a bit of a waste really, as there's a lot of interesting things to learn about languages. The scientific side - how they evolve over time, how various languages relate to each other - cognate words, sounds shifts etc. And the literary/cultural side for those that way inclined.

In any case, I can't see anything that programming languages have in common with natural languages besides the word "language".

So I speak four languages now?

[innocent_white_lamb]

Good to know if I ever need a federal government job...

Sheesh.

This is either someone trying to beat the system, or perhaps the system beating itself to some degree. Why is the plain meaning of "foreign language" in an English-speaking country even up for debate?

2.4% duh

[danomatika]

national statistics showing that less than 2.4 percent of college students graduate with a degree in computer science

Only 2.4% percent, well yeah ... it's only CS people. Since when did technology development only depend on CS graduates? Last I checked, there are more and more focus/applied degrees every year which would probably take care of a good number of those positions. Not every job needs a theoretical background, and all of those job postings for "App Developers" probably don't require a hardcore degree a this point ...

Re:2.4% duh

[icebike]

Pretty much spot on.

I'm sure the research scientist or business major that learns a great deal about applied computer usage, including some aspect of programming, need never pass by a CS classroom or know Donald Knuth from Donald Duck. Similarly, those students that get into hardware infrastructure don't need a great deal of programming either.

Still, the bill seems more aimed at allowing people to get out of high school without ever once encountering a Spanish word not written on a menu, than actually growing the computer literacy in the state.

I like this idea

[O('_')O_Bush]

My highschool required 3 years of a foreign language to graduate, 0 of which I had any interest in, and only 1 (the first) had any real-life applicability (spending a week in Mexico City).

Effectively, for me, two of those courses were a completely forced waste of time.

Taking more classes on programming/software development would have been much more useful.

Re:I like this idea

[amiga3D]

Which entirely misses the point of a broad education. If you look at it that way we'd do basic courses in the first 6 grades then farm everyone not going to college to a trade school. I believe there is a certain amount of general knowledge everyone should have so that a society can function. The problem in the last few decades is we've allowed too much dumbing down and now we're reaping what we've sowed.

Re:I like this idea

[Simonetta]

In 25 years the Baby Boomers will be just as influential as they are now. But there will be a lot fewer of them around.

The English language is not dying. In fact, it is the fastest growing language in the world. When Finnish businessmen sell telephones to Indonesia in exchange for tropical wood lumber and spices, no one speaks Finnish or Indonesian. They speak English.

Also note that in 25 years, when people who only speak English need to communicate with peasants that only speak legacy languages, they will smile gracefully and speak into a microphone and their personal-translator unit will reproduce their translated words into that legacy language.

It's not that difficult to learn sufficient Spanish as an adult. About one third of the vocabulary is cognitively identical to English. Its grammar is functionally similar to all the other Romance languages. The Romance linguistic framework is not hard for people who have learned English in a structured school environment, because other Romance language speakers (the French and the Normans) ruled England for hundreds of years in the Middle Ages and set the grammar rules that continue to be used to this day.

Re:I like this idea

[wonkavader]

Let me add just a bit to your comment on Spanish. Spanish is the single easiest commonly used, spoken language an American can learn. It has a TINY vocabulary (you can claim fluency knowling well less than 10,000 words). There are native speakers all around you who love talking to English speakers in Spanish (not only is it hilarious, the English speakers are buying things and helping them makes them repeat customers). It's actually USEFUL, and you can start putting it to good use right away in almost any state. Try that with German! And then there's what you said.

ASL is also dead-easy, but it's not spoken, per se, not really written, and only useful in deaf schools. That said, you lean ASL and you can pick up other SLs accross the globe faster than anyone can pick up a new spoken language, and there's deaf folk in every country.

Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[turp182]

I sucked at Spanish in high school, harder than calculus. I got around language requirements in college via some comparative religion courses (which worked out great as one teacher turned me onto Hermann Hesse, changed my life).

The only problem I see with this change is called it a Foreign Language. If it was Alternative Language I wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

I see learning a programming language, which I assume mean learning some programming, as highly valuable to anyone. If taught properly (I've never seen this), it can provide a solid logic base (and, or, not) and a deeper understanding of decision making (conditionals).

My wife had a total of 8 years of French and spent a semester in Paris. She hasn't used it yet and is no longer very fluent. As for applied knowledge, her spreadsheet skills are good, but she trips up on logic and conditionals.

Why is there a foreign language requirement anyway?

Re:Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[johnjaydk]

Why is there a foreign language requirement anyway?

Yesterday, my best friend spoke to an american supplier and told them that he wanted the goods shipped to Europe. Not some weird, small country but Europe. The supplier asked where Europe was in the US.

I think You guys could do with a foreign langue or two. Not to mention geography...

Re:Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[radarskiy]

"Why is there a foreign language requirement anyway?"

To unlearn things you "know" about language that just aren't so.

For example, in no English class that I took was any tense other than past, present, and future named. To learn what perfect, imperfect, and pluperfect versions of those tenses were for I had to take French and translate it myself back into English

Re:Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[Dan East]

I call bs on your little anecdote. If someone was told to ship something to a place they weren't familiar with, they wouldn't ask "where in the US is that?". They would simply ask "where is that?" because they are already in this country and obviously assumed it was simply a place they didn't know about. Further I have never met anyone, no matter how uneducated, who did not know what Europe was.

Re:Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[Kjella]

For example, in no English class that I took was any tense other than past, present, and future named. To learn what perfect, imperfect, and pluperfect versions of those tenses were for I had to take French and translate it myself back into English

I was = past
I am = present
I will be = future
but you've never needed
I have been = perfect
I was being = imperfect
I had been = pluperfect

Pretty much all languages express the same tenses, it just depends on how. True, some languages don't have as many tenses but then it's usually indicated by word ordering or some other way. For exampe in German the difference between "I had money" and "I would have had money" is "I hatte Geld, aber.." and "Ich hätte Geld, aber...". In Norwegian it would be "Jeg hadde penger, men..." and "Hadde jeg penger, men..." and it's really all the same. In English extra words, in German new forms of words and in Norwegian different ordering of words. But the tenses exist as such and any language would have a way of expressing it.

Re:Should be Alternative Language Requirement

[Gavagai80]

I've met more people from London, Ontario than from London, England. Nothing wrong with being specific.

Re:there's lots of them

[Mashiki]

In Ontario we used to have this thing called OAC(Grade 13) which gave you equivalent degrees or partial credits towards university. So in a sense, they can be valuable. When they killed and gutted grade 13 here, the quality of students entering university dropped through the floor.

Excellent news

[david.given]

This move makes absolutely perfect sense. Soon, everyone graduating from Kentucky high schools will have above average academic qualifications. Also, the senator is a genius and extremely good looking.

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[Aryden]

It really depends. I took Latin for 4 years. Though it is of no real applicable use to me at this time, it was a really great base for learning Italian, French, Spanish and Portuguese. Those languages came really easy to me because of the Latin. The backlash I have with this is, the law should be that kids need 2 credits in programming AND 2 credit in a foreign language instead of this malarky.

Sounds good to me.

[SeaFox]

Not sure what the deal is with all the hate here in the thread. Isn't the Slashdot groupthink supposed to say that anything that exposes people to computers and programming is a good thing? Even when it's that nonsense of trying to teach primary grade-schoolers to code?

People are a lot less likely to take a computer programming language than they are a foreign language class in high school, but I'd say the computer programming course is more valuable to them. If they take the semester or two of foreign language, they will likely have forgotten it in a couple years from non-practice and even if they did want to study further will be having to start at year one anyway in college. If they never travel to a country where they speak the language what they do learn will be limited usefulness in life. It's another one of those subjects people study to be a more rounded person. But exposure to programming means learning more about computers in general and how to operate them, that means less idiots in offices hitting "reply all" when unnecessary or looking for the "any" key. And even those who decide programming isn't for them will come away with a better understanding (and possibly respect) for those that do go into programming.

You are the one missing the point

[SuperKendall]

Which entirely misses the point of a broad education.

Taking programming courses is every bit as broadening as taking a language course. Just in different dimensions.

Indeed I would hazard to say you would retain more overall from a programming course than one or two semesters of a language course.

In no way are we dumbing down people allowing them to study computers more in depth over language.

Re:Why is Kentucky such a backward place?

[techno-vampire]

So what exactly is the problem with Kentucky?

That's a good question. After all, not only does the best Bourbon Whiskey come from there, they produce a wonderful jelly.

Sounds a lot like

[msobkow]

This sounds a lot like the "Pizza is a vegetable" nonsense I remember reading about a few years ago.

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[R.Mo_Robert]

HS language courses are the biggest waste of time. Do you actually learn anything in a HS language class? Just enough to recognize the language you are reading, maybe make fun of the weird shit they do in other countries, but definitely not well enough to be able to converse.

Actually, I took (four years of) Spanish in high school, then tested into the advanced Spanish classes in college, which were mostly composition and literature, and I only had to take them because I had a Spanish minor (or I would have tested out otherwise). I also studied in Mexico during this time and was obviously able to converse, but I learned the majority of that during high school and would have been perfectly fine then, too. Some people are just not quite as good at learning foreign languages as others, and certainly the quality of education varies (I went to a really small school, by the way, but I think we had good teachers, including one native speaker), but it's absolutely false to claim that you won't learn anything in an HS language class.

A computer programming language, however, is completely different. While I think it's useful to learn both, this proposal seems to lump them under the same skill, and I don't think that's accurate or a good way to do it. (I have a BA in CS and an MA in linguistics, including applied/SLA, so I do have experience with both, by the way.)

An international embarrassment

[fred911]

Granted, Kentucky is not representative of the whole US, but a perfect example of how we repetitively embarrass ourselves internationally.
  Most of the world is multilingual. Learning another language provides skills unrelated to coding. In addition to the obvious benefit of communication, it provides the student with a wider vocabulary and the ability to basically know the meaning of many, many new words they may hear while studying, without the use of a dictionary.
  How many Europeans know only one language? How many Indians or Chineese? Virtually none that have education.

We've carried the big stick for too long, if you can't see that you need to have the ability to play internationally, you'll be stuck with a Kentucky education and sadly ignorant .

If you're not learning calculus

[smittyoneeach]

If you're not learning calculus from Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica in the original Latin, you're just taking shortcuts. Begone with you.

var langs, about_time = new Date()

[l0ungeb0y]

langs = [
{
  "name":"C",
  "popularity": 49
},
{
  "name":"Java",
  "popularity": 53
},
{
  "name":"JavaScript",
  "popularity":82,
},
{
  "name":"Perl",
  "popularity": 3
},
{
  "name":"PHP",
  "popularity":64
},
{
  "name":"Python",
  "popularity":57
}
];

langs.sort(function(a,b) {
    if (a.popularity < b.popularity) { return 1; }
    if (a.popularity > b.popularity) { return -1; }
    return 0;
});

if (langs[0].name == 'javascript') {
    console.log("Tell me about it, seems whenever I go out drinking everyone is speaking in Javascript these days.");
} else {
    console.log("Dude, I don't even know what you are saying");
}

Re: Not if you work for the Commonwealth of Kentuc

[Anonymous Coward]

I know it is popular to mock the Southern US, but lame values of living are relative. I live in rural Southern Alabama, which is probably not much different than rural Kentucky. I have a nice 2 story home overlooking a pond. My morning commute to work is around 20 minutes if you count dropping the kids off at school. I might pass 10 cars during rush hour. I know most of my neighbors for a mile in both directions. When I want to go on a walk in the park, my backyard has 130 acres of pine trees planted. Sure the pay scale is not as much as a similar job in other areas, but neither is the cost of living. What would $70,000/year get you in Chicago?

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[ColdWetDog]

While the AC's account of foreign languages in high school is likely reasonably accurate for a large number of people, I think that the increasing denigration of language skills (including English) is yet another trend that needs to be reversed in American schools. The problem for Mr. AC is that he probably took 1 year of Spanish and got little out of it. An hour a day for one year doesn't get you very far. I took three years of Russian, came out reasonably fluent and took another two years in college. No, it's not terribly 'useful' unless I decide to change to a life of cybercrime, but I think it's important to be able to think in another language, look at another culture carefully and come up with a less parochial world view. The latter being the most important part these days.

Too many Americans don't understand the world past the 5:00 news. That is a truly scary thought.

But, back on topic, computer languages and foreign languages are nothing alike academically and socially - but if something gets kids to think in high school, it can't be all bad.

Re: Not if you work for the Commonwealth of Kentu

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhhhhh! I am OK with people not knowing how beautiful most of the southern US is. If they find out, they will ruin it.

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[ChunderDownunder]

The ability to speak multiple languages, to some degree at least, is commonplace around the world. Monolingualism seems particularly severe in Anglosphere countries (including my own).

In Australia there's been a move away from teaching European languages in favour of the languages of Asia from the trade perspective. It's also a shorter duration to fly to Japan (whose language my brother's kids are learning) than the 20 or so hours to fly from Melbourne to Vienna or Paris.

Re: Not if you work for the Commonwealth of Kentuc

[wonkavader]

Sorry, but I've seen rural Alabama and rural Kentucky. From my experience, Kentucky's doing significantly better.

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[lvxferre]

"Romance languages". Not "Latinate languages"[sic].

Learning Latin because you want to learn one Romance language is counter-productive, but if you want to learn a bunch of them, basic Latin is really helpful. It helps you to understand the languages' quirks better - and to predict them. Simple examples:
*Italian: words like uovo-uova that change gender when plural: check for Latin 2nd declension neuter words.
*French: it's far easier to put circumflexes if you remember which words had an S in Latin, as hôpitalhospital or maîtremagister.
*Portuguese: wondering if you should use Ç or S? Check if Latin had a hard C (always /k/) or an S (always /s/) in that position.
Portuguese won't help you with Italian plurals, Italian won't help you to put French circumflexes and French will barely give you orthographic clues for Portuguese. And, even without being a Romance language, it also helps a lot with English, due to the amount of borrowings the language did from Latin and Norman [itself a Romance language].

It's also worth mentioning that Classical Latin (the non-church one) has a HUGE literature, and translations in general usually suck.

TL;DR: "Latin should be left to the priests" my ass.
[Even because they can't pronounce Latin for shit. "ky-loom", not "cheh-lo", paedicatores stulti.]

Re:KY SB 16 2014

[lvxferre]

Romani ite domum

Someone will keep his balls...

Re:there's lots of them

[Bite The Pillow]

Advanced Placement classes give you credit at most colleges. You could spend your senior (12) year getting English, calc, physics, foreign language, and maybe a few others. The tests are relatively cheap, but since we are talking about Ky here, the governor's scholars program covers the cost for 3 if you pass. 12 credits, plus mote if you take pre tests like comp sci.
You can get at least one semester out of the way for a few hundred dollars.

Re:Not if you work for the Commonwealth of Kentuck

[shikaisi]

My sheep clued me in that those stories they tell on Slashdot about girlfriends are strictly for the benefit of credulous basement-dwellers.