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Ask Slashdot: When Is a Better Career Opportunity Worth a Pay Cut?
An anonymous reader writes "I am currently working for a software company that rakes in a lot of money and has an EBIT that puts other companies to shame. The company is great: good benefits, lots of vacation time, very good salary. However the problem is that their architecture is already established, change is often slow moving, and most of the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers. I find my job somewhat mundane and I am losing interest. I recently was offered another job, with a small company that doesn't have the capital/revenue stream to provide all the perks that my current employer has. Needless to say, this small company wants someone to take their system into the modern age, which means re-design/new architecture, implementation, maintenance, team lead, etc.... thus, more experience to add to my resume. These are things that I won't be able to do easily in my current job. My concern is that it appears this company has really high expectations, and since I had to take a small pay cut to get this position it leaves a but of uneasiness in my stomach for future promotions/advancements. However I believe in their product, their vision/goals, the people and the future of the company. I feel excited but also scared as its a bit of a gamble. Has anyone else experienced the same thing?"
Be sure you can trust that you're not being screwed. Some(many?) employers are sociopaths and will take you for a ride on future promises.
You'll find about a dozen people in this thread that are gonna say "follow your heart".
Those people are wrong. That's the last thing you should do.
I went through this, and it's got upsides and downsides. You need to weigh those against your work-life balance and make a well thought out decision about your priorities.
The company I left 2 years ago had a rich culture, a workout room, showers (nice to go with the workout room), weekly social things, great work-life balance with a 45 hour or so work week and alternating Friday early out, a great career ladder, and great coffee. The job was mildly interesting, not very challenging, but I had a lot of fun and free time, so I could do contract side work to fill out those needs. Work life balance was awesome, I worked about 40-45 hours a week, and got a lot of time at work to do career development (teach myself new stuff) and learned on the job. Manager was a bit of a git, but hey, nothing's perfect.
The company I'm at now has no amenities to speak of (ok, coffee, that's it though). No gym, no weekly social things, nothing really. I took a pay cut to come here, but since them I'm making about 35% more, because I'm a good performer and fixed a lot of key infrastructure problems and took a management position. I'm working with more up-to-date technology and doing some cutting-edge things because there wasn't a massive technical legacy to support that prevented it. However, I also work a huge number of insane hours, I'm basically always on call, and I'm getting a lot of great physical job stress effects, which is just great.
So there's the question. Can you do the stress and the extra work to re-earn the extra (and probably more) money? How important is work-life balance to you? Do you have a family? Do you want to learn a lot of really neat things and do work you can look back on and think "that was really awesome, I can't believe I pulled that off"? Is there a likelihood that the new place will grow to the point where you'll come out ahead in 5 years?
Those are the questions you need to ask yourself, and you need to be brutally honest about.
Can you still pay your bills and have enough leftover for long term savings? If the answer is yes I'd take the new job.
Hmmm... lets trade a high pay, low stress job for a low pay, high stress job. Yup, sounds like a winning decision.
I'm working for lower pay because I absolutely refuse to work for a publicly traded company. I'm still doing pretty well, not as well as I could be, but I can go to sleep with a clear conscience.
I resigned two positions because the company went public while I was an employee.
it seems like a straightforward decision.
consider yourself fortunate to be able to decide between interesting
work and a cushy path to retirement
"Career opportunities" don't come with pay cuts. They come with pay raises. Run.
This sounds like a great opportunity that comes at a small cost.
Keep in mind that joining a startup is something that will be rewarding on a couple of levels. You can help guide the technical vision, get to know a good group of people working together on something great.
You also have to keep your feet on the ground. Don't let common sense be overwhelmed by your local Reality Distortion Field. Don't let your mind wander off about what colour of Lamborghini you're going to buy with your stock options.
And I hope you left your previous company on good terms -- you never know when you'll meet up with that organization or those people again. The world is a surprisingly small place.
I kind of did that. I used to work a nice boring job at a University with excellent benefits (but without high pay or potential for promotion).
I took a pay cut to work for a statewide bank, and it turned out turned out that job #2 was almost as bad as job #1 as far as upwards mobility.
I left job #2 for a 50% pay raise at FedEx. High stress, long hours, great potential promotions, great pay. Laid off as part of the cut-back in 2009.
Here I am working for another University (different large one, but still in the same state). I've got the good benefits and low stress, but my experience outside of the University systems actually got me pretty decent pay when I came back. I still don't really have any promotion opportunities, but I'm in an end-of-career job (as a 35 year old).
when a was younger it would have mattered, but not now (I'm 40). I mean if they want quality they must pay it. that is my opinion
I find it interesting your concern is that the architects, not developers, make the decisions. I can't recall working for a company, that was successful, that listened to the developers over the architects. I haven't met a developer yet that was both a visionary and a forward thinker. On the other side, if you are young, can pay your bills, and don't mind that the new company could very well be consumed, or shut out, because of your previous employer, I say have fun with it. If you answered no to any of these, think carefully, but remember that those who think long, often think wrong. Good luck.
It's worth a pay cut when the amount of happiness you get is greater than the amount of happiness you get from the money.
If it makes you happier and isn't going to lead to retiring in poverty, then go for it, obviously. This is hardly a question worth asking, but I guess too many people still delusionally believe that money creates fulfillment.
if its bullcrap then obviously not.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I'm a programmer. I live and work in a place far removed from Silicon Valley, and consequently make about half as much money as I could there. But I wouldn't change a thing. Money isn't the only measure of wealth. Any time someone tries to convince you that it is, or even that it's particularly important, you should ask what they're selling.
I've had it with small companies. During the '00s I twice started with small companies only to hear "pay will be late" at the end of an early pay period, then "pay is just around the corner" by the end of the next pay period. In one case, the CEO simply never paid; I left before the third no-pay period was over, demanding that I be paid for my hours, to which he basically replied "so sue us!" I did—but only managed to recoup some of what I was owed. In the other case, they eventually paid but then promptly fired me for the noises I'd made about leaving due to two periods with no pay; that CEO had the gall to act infuriated and hurt at my lack of loyalty to the company.
So be sure that a small company with a low capital/revenue stream doesn't mean "You promise to do it for the love of the company if they can't afford to pay you."
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Most decent programmers will find themselves in your position at some point in their careers. I did too. I know nothing of your financial situation and commitments (mortgage/family/etc.) but don't take a pay cut if you can at all help it. The fact that you feel any uneasiness would seal the deal.
I would readily agree to a pay cut in only the following situations :
1) Need a job desperately and gotta make rent. Hopefully this situation never arises
2) Major promotion or opportunity in a company I strongly strong believe in. The idea being that I will work my ass off for peanuts, but believe in my heart that I will come away with a huge sum of money at the end, or the ability to make a huge sum of money.
3) I am going to work for or with someone who is absolutely exceptional and is going to be teaching me something I couldn't already learn on my own.
It does not sound like you are getting any of those three. If you are bored, keep looking for a better or different job. In the meantime, If you want to scratch your intellectual itch, do it on the weekends.
You have my 2 cents worth.
- Tempestdata
I took a pay cut to move in to the digital forensics field in 2007 mainly because of the large volume of included training that was offered and the prospect of increased salaries in the future. I feel that it paid off, I got to learn a great deal about a field I was unsure of using software I could never have afforded to purchase on my own. Self study is how I've learned most things in my career but there really is something to be said for having access to experienced real-world professionals.
Going after a startup for innovative work might me interesting and rewarding but it might not neccessarily pay your mortgage.
/10 of the old company but they pay proper salary nevertheless.
There are many benefits in working with well established platform and performing maintenance coding.
Personally, I would never accept pay cut for "I'm bored with my current job".
You can always find more rewarding job with higher salary if you really want to.
Just remember you don't have to rush out, and don't let the door hit you in the ass when you leave.
World is actually annoyingly small place and you will end up bumping into your old colleagues and it's much better if you are in good terms with them.
I actually did this kind of move just recently.
I left my old job for a position in a much smaller company with old, almost ancient infrastructure.
One of the main reasons for leaving was the salary, the small company does not have capital/revenue of even
I didn't double my salary by switching but taking into account the layoffs which were foreseeable in the old position, I'd might aswell say I did double up.
There are no atheists when recovering from tape backup.
If they desperately need someone to do all this great stuff, I wonder why you have to take a pay cut. Sure, you may be overpaid at you current job because of stress and what not, but i wonder if this new firm is just looking to find someone who will fix the problems cheap and then go away when they do not get a raise.
Life is certainly more about money. but that is mostly said by people who have it.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
A blank slate can be daunting. Improvising on established architecture can be rewarding. Pay is not everything. It sounds like you will be doing more for less pay. Will they make it up in equity or options. Do they have the resources to pull it off? Do you like these people? Do you have a family. Would you like to have a family soon. Can you live on less? Have an exit strategy.
You gotta do what you gotta do, but keep in mind that pay cuts are permanent. You're never going to get back to what you'd be making if you kept the better paying position. Maybe you'll be the exception, but probably not.
So if you're thinking that eventually you'll get back on track salary-wise in your job decision calculus, run the pros and cons again with that in mind. Some things are worth more than money, just make sure you know how much more.
I am not a crackpot.
If you have a family to support, stay put. You have a good, stable job. Your "boredom" is immaterial to providing for your family. In short, get over yourself. You are working for more than just yourself now.
If you don't have a family to support: Take it. Now's the time to make your mistakes. The worst thing that happens is that the company goes bust, you have some peanut butter and ramen days as you find another job. If it's just you, then it's no big deal, right?
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Careers are all about money. It cant be better if you are losing income in the process. It can be different, but not *better*.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's worth it when you are happy with your situation. Stress level, contentment..it's up to the individual...
Quit bitching or quit being a pussy and face risk.
It's worth it when you think it's worth it. There's no checklist or mathematical breaking point to tell you when to switch. This sounds more like you lack a solid structure of friends, so you're coming here in search of a support group.
Opinions are like aholes everyone has one and everyone's stinks. A wise man told me long back that ""as a programmer your peak earning potential is between the age of 35 - 45, you can engage in adventures before or after this peak period. If you are a super duper programmer chasing a job that offers opportunities to solve interesting technical problems is great when you are 45, you should look for opportunities where you should be able to leverage your experience. For the 10yrs you have in between consider opportunities that have the best financial rewards."" But having said that... You just have to go with *your* gut feeling, you don't want to miss that opportunity to work for that next google or facebook either...
When Is a Better Career Opportunity Worth a Pay Cut?
- I think it makes sense to do so when you go your own way to start your own business. As a contractor I was making much more than what I am making right now, as a business owner. It's a risk, but anything is a risk, even staying in one place for a long time is a risk.
You can't handle the truth.
Been there, done that, got the coffee cups. I left the comfy boring job for less pay/more work/more opportunity. It can pay off, but understand that your new employer is no different than most employers. It is up to you to manage your career, and you should keep an eye open for other opportunities down the line, whether that means more money or more experience. Understand that going into the job they were somewhat stingy, and that might change - or it might not.
Where do you work that you get such a laxed environment where Architects are actually doing their jobs and no developer is just cowboy coding architecture into the mix? I want to work there. I think you really need to evaluate where you are and how good you have it. If you want to make architectural decisions, maybe work your way into an architectural role. If you just want to implement XYZ because you think it's cool. You deserve the paycut. I don't want you to take it the wrong way, but a lot of jobs I've worked at has been developers making the architectural decisions and the architecture ends up shit. Be glad you have a committee that cares enough about it to prevent people from implementing anything they feel like. I'd love a job like that.
Stop looking for answers on the internet. Rely on your instinct.
Increase your outside hobbies to fulfill the "boredom" you feel, and maybe that'll cure your blues.
The answer also REALLY depends on age, relationship, family, etc. More so than can really be addressed here on Slashdot. The fact that you ARE asking is a good sign, though :)
Do you want to become an architect at some point, so you are able to make the big decisions and decide direction? That may be an option if you want to keep some of the perks of your current job. Do some night classes or w/e and make the move!
It doesn't mean much now, it's built for the future.
I left my nice cushy enterprise job where I seemed to be on the fast track -- one with good perks. It was about a $25K paycut, with most of that in soft benefits (401k, bonus, stock purchase plan, RSUs that would vest). I'll make some of it up with the annual bonus, but I don't know how large it will be exactly because I haven't been at the company for a year yet.
I changed not because the job was boring (though it was), but because of my significant other's job required us to move. So far I've learned more in relevant areas than I had in the past 6 months at my previous job. Even if I don't stay for the salary, I'll have the experience I need to go other places, because I've been trained in the technology that people want.
Never run away from a job, always run to a job
Quit your current job and take the new one, but first, tell me where you work, i definetely want to work there
There's a reason that "if it ain't broken don't fix it" continues to be the holy grail of engineering. It's because any value function you come up with to evaluate a new opportunity and compare it to an existing, good arrangement is bound to be incomplete. So Value = f(salary, benefits, exciting work) is one part of the story. What about the potential of a Dilbert-like management culture, processes that you don't know yet that you would find out after a year of working at the new place - at which point it would be too late to turn back.
A good job, like a system that works just fine, reflects on a good balance of a large number of variables, many of which one doesn't understand and takes for granted, until one moves out and breaks the balance.
Having said that, I have broken the rule a number of times, because discomfort is not necessarily a bad thing. Necessity is the mother of invention, so if you're healthy, robust, and not too much in debt (or have an ARM mortgage that's going to explode around the corner...) then it couldn't hurt to challenge yourself by leaving your comfort zone, every now and then :-)
You have it very good. Don't blow it. Use the 'extra' money you now make and the free time you now have to volunteer somewhere (or spend time with your kids, or pursue a hobby, or travel). There are non-profits begging to get work done end-to-end. You can do exactly the same thing, and feel good about it, while keeping your boring job.
If you are serious, have your payroll deposited into two accounts. One is the lower salary of the exciting job. The other is the 'bonus' money of your current job. You'll find the bonus money piles up and allows you freedom to pursue other interests outside of work.
You have to evaluate what that means for you -
1. How long will you be at the lower pay level? What is their evaluation process?
2. Do you believe in the companies product?
3. Will they require more time from you, and are you willing to put in that time, for less pay? Think about it as less time for everything else in your life.
4. Will this experience truly be better for you in X years?
5. What happens if the Company with the "Better Career Opportunity" runs into financial difficulties? I assume they are less stable, how do you handle situations without a sure footing?
My answer is simple: when taking the job will improve your life more than having the extra money. I get more respect, have more time off, am happier, and am still able to pay my bills and put money away.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
In the past 2 years, I've been at 5 companies and taken 2 pay cuts. All voluntary.
My “compensation pie” is made up of many pieces. Only one of them is salary. The piece of the pie that was sorely missing was "satisfaction" ("happiness", "contentment").
After 2 years, I finally found a company that *wants* me (my skills and what I have to offer), and actually allows me to contribute. This helps fill my "satisfaction" piece of my "compensation pie”.
You need to figure out your own pie pieces, and the size/importance of each.
Meanwhile, I'm confident enough in my abilities that I'm not too worried about future salaries.
"However the problem is that their architecture is already established, change is often slow moving, and most of the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers"
If you think this is a problem, you probably don't understand why having architecture experts who make these decisions is a good thing, rather than letting developers do what they like . However, architecture roles and what they entail can vary enormously between diferent companies - the best people to manage this responsibility always have a strong background of years of successful development work, with plenty of time supporting, upgrading and maintaining their systems too.
But it sounds like you really want to take on more responsibility and feel you are ready for it, so why not go for it ? The worst that can happen if it doesn't work out is that you'll need to find another job, so unless that might be difficult for any reason, follow what you really want to do. If you want to move this way up the IT career ladder then you will have to make such a move at some stage, but be prepared for more stress and problems : you won't just be churning out pretty diagrams all day long...... and some of the meetings and business people you will have to deal with will probably drive you nuts.
Unless, it is from something you don't like to something you do (for instance from "IT Guy" to "Developer" or vice versa depending on your likes). Even then lowering your pay is simply the one of the options open to you. With a little more looking you might find that you can change and increase you pay. You have to be VERY careful because an employer is looking to minimize his expense and maximize your productivity. So, always bargain hard and start high. You can always move your price down, but you can't really move it up.
No sigs in BETA. Beta SUCKS.
Oh come on, .... In that case go for the money and do something interesting out of business hours.
When you can comfortably think it through and say to yourself:
"This new job looks like it will be way more fulfilling than what I am doing now"
*OR*
"This new job looks like it won't have me looking to jump off a bridge every day like my current job"
*AND*
When you are financially stable enough to do so. E.g. you can live comfortably enough with your new salary while being able to satisfy debts (loans, mortgages etc.).
Then you can make your choice. If the new job doesn't pan out, the you keep looking. My current job is challenging yet fun, I do a range of things from custom software and electronics to industrial automation. Right now I am integrating a new IPG solid state laser (4kW, its a bad ass machine but they do go to 50kW!) with an existing workstation and moving the old pulsed laser to a dedicated workstation for a high volume job coming in. The awesome part is they leave me alone to design and build the systems while ALMOST handing me a blank check. I have really sharpened my skills and have worked with some very talented senior people. So far I really like working here. Is the pay good? Nope, its terrible for what I am doing but I am not anywhere near struggling to live. Plus I do work on the side which brings in extra cash when I need it. I am mainly happy in life. And that is the most important thing.
I worked an awful job for more money and now I work a great job for slightly less money. I prefer the job I have now. So I'd say the additional money and benefits aren't worth working at a worse job unless of course you were an idiot and got a mortgage for 54.9999% of your annual income.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
So, this company wants you to work for them and take LESS, but they are promising you a better opportunity? I suppose it *might* be true, but I'd be worried about going backwards unless you are changing careers or work locations.
If you are worried enough about this to consult the sages of SlashDot and actually TAKE some stranger's advice, I suggest you ask the prospective employer for more money (say exactly what you make now) and failing that, keep looking. If they really want you, they will pay, if they won't pay, they don't really want you that bad.
NEVER go backwards without a reason that is tangible if you can help it. It hardly ever pays you back.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
About 10 years ago I left a fairly established consulting gig with a company that was winding down operations / being acquired.
Had to make a decision to move to the new company & stay in the same becoming-boring job or strike out again and search out the small internet startup / potentially rich-making / more exciting and hugely more risky gigs.
I chose the latter.
End up getting screwed on the IPO on both of them (one went private instead of public and screwed everyone but the founder), one reneged on the handshake deal I had with the president (since he left before the IPO happened - he'd been outsted by the founder). With my kids getting a bit older, I then went and hid out at a big company where the money was stable for 6 years to trade on benefits instead of income potential. However, I wouldn't trade the experience of working for those small, nimble outfits for anything because I've carried the "of course we can change that - what's to stop us?" attitude that you build up in that environment everywhere I've been since.
It's made me a better consultant, no doubt.
Someone above questioned where you are in life and that to me is a huge factor. Are you married? Do you have children? Are you the sole breadwinner in your family? What financial obligations are going to be there whether you are working or not (like a mortgage or retirement savings)?
The choice between a small company where you can make a difference every day and decisions are made in the president's office in an afternoon (but "the money" can vanish overnight) and a large company where it feels like you are trying to steer the Titanic (but the money will be there all day every day) is somewhat about what makes you tick. Are you an adreneline junky? Are you risk averse? How about the other people who are counting on you? (if there are any)
Reason why there is hope for the future generation #364:
"I wish my grass was emo so it could cut itself."
You have the typical recurring "job blues".
I've had it before - but as you said yourself - you currently have "good benefits, lots of vacation time, very good salary" - not many folks can say that, particularly the last part.
If you were totally miserable, that would be one thing, but since you are clearly not and are just irritated with the way most companies end up working (that small start-up, if successful, will very likely turn into the same thing eventually), the best idea for personal fulfillment is to find a hobby, find some volunteer work where you think you can make a difference, find other things in life that fulfill you - which is good advice anyway, too many people look for their life meaning in how they generate income when the point of generating income is to be able to enjoy your life.
Since you aren't miserable, just frustrated, you don't want to take the chance that in a year your start-up goes belly up, when you've worked 52 weeks straight, had to scrimp and save money because your 'very good' salary is gone, and you look back and realize just how good you have it right now.
Normally I wouldn't be so blunt, but you did ask for advice - LOL - and that's the best I think anyone can give you who isn't living in the clouds or just blowing idealistic smoke up your ass because they don't know you as you are some random guy on the Internet they will never hear about again either way.
But offer to work as a paid consultant for the other company to fix all their issues. Yes, you'll have less free time, but you'll get to see first-hand what working for the other company would really be like (personalities, working conditions, etc) without sacrificing what you already have. Your resume will look just as good, you'll get the extra experience and creative problem-solving you're looking for, and that will make your current full-time job that much more bearable, interest-wise.
If the other employer/company really wants you to do work for them, then they'll have no problem with you consulting x hours per week. If they give you flak over it, consider that a red flag you discovered without giving up the good job you already have.
"A bird in the hand..."
CAPTCHA: "scoped"!
That's a rotten deal. You are going to take a pay cut, but you are still way too late to be a core member of a growing company. If you have a good job you had better hold on to it. This is the age old bullshit, you will make less money but look at the opportunity! Not gonna happen. You are going to get punked, I think.
I took a $10,000 a year paycut when I left my previous employer to come to work for my current company... because I felt that I'd be much happier/have a better quality of work-life (old job was starting to destroy my soul / passion for programming)
they wanted to hire me at my previous salary, but it was just not possible under their budgets/etc.
I took the job anyway because I felt their culture and my work quality of life would jsut be a great match.
Now, a couple years later, I've more than made up the difference in pay (proved my worth and the $$$ got found) and am just stupidly happy with this job.
It's actually true that the worst days at my current job are still better than most of the best days for the last 3 years of my previous one.
Basically, I've tried to always value happiness more than pure financial gain, and I've reaped the rewards of "love what you do for a living and you'll never ~work~ another day in your life".
Good Luck
The Digital Sorceress
... is that you don't care about the fulfillment you get from your job, but just what you can put on your resume.
If all you want is stuff to put on your resume, by all means take the job. If you can't handle the fact that Architects make design decisions (which is their job) and you are expected to implement those decisions as a developer (which is your job), then by all means, take the new job.
We dont want to afford you, will you come work for us for chump change?
They can afford you, they just hope you will be stupid and be blinded by the "opportunity".
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
A company with architects implies that it's infrastructure is somewhat complicated.
Developers hardly ever use the programs they write, much less understand the environment in which their program runs. What are the business requirements? Regulatory requirements? Technology limitations? Why are those present? Who set them and why?
These are things architects worry about.
You, as a developer, usually have no visibility into them in a large company unless you ask. And even if you ask you may not understand them, because it's far, far away from your personal experience.
if you don't understand why architects are needed, you should be hyper-aware that you're clueless when you go to your next job that requires you to design an architecture. And you will probably fail.
That's fine for you, because you'll learn. It'll be bad for the company you work for, because they'll have spend money and time on a solution that doesn't work, or at least doesn't work well.
I’m 51 and been through many variations– upsized, downsized, self-employment, public, private, smalls, large, leveraged buyouts you name it.
. I’ve left for money, I’ve left bad bosses, I’ve left for security, and I’ve left for geography. Also know that I’ve never had any difficulty getting a new job at any age. I just jumped companies last year at age 50. Once I decided on a change, it took 3 months to find a new job across the county while keeping the old gig. (Middle age crazy, wanted a climate change). If you’re competent and can communicate, there is a need.. Granted I’m in management now (10+ years) rather than programming and we have to maximize the skill set we have as well as always keep growing.
Outside of Government work, if your name isn’t over the door, you (IT) are a disposable commodity. You are the first to get cut in lean times and the last to get hired in good ones. Also, know that nobody is ever indispensable. Leverage and balance those facts to your advantage. Nobody will watch out for your ass but you.
To answer your question: Know what makes you happy. Form an ultimate game plan of what you want and where you want to end up. Every opportunity must past a simple litmus test: Does it lead you closer to end game? Only you can answer that. Good Luck.
..... and don't look back.
My philosophy is, I will do whatever my employer asks me to do, because their name is in the upper left corner of my paycheck. I get paid to do what they ask me to do, not to do what I feel like I want to do.
If you want to do what you want to do, then go start your own business and make your own rules. If you fail it, it will be your own doing, and you can probably find comfort in that.
But, as long as you're working for someone else, suck it up and enjoy those paychecks. Your quality of life is to be found at home, not at the office. Work is a job, not a life.
most of the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers.
This is probably a good thing. Ideally all software developers would be good software architects as well, and we could always trust them to make good high level design choices. In practice this is just not the case. My suggestion to anyone the position of wanting to make higher level design choices is to do whatever you can to get that sort of a promotion or to do what the OP is contemplating and move to a smaller company where the head (maybe only) developer (i.e. you) *is* the architect.
Lots of people are perfectly content implementing other people's designs or hunting down bugs, etc. We don't want everybody to have input into high level design. Some aren't going to be good at it. And even if everybody was good at it, having every developer writing code with their own design methodology is going to result in a big mess. Too many cooks spoil the broth. Consistency of vision is good (assuming the vision is good, if it's not you're fucked anyway).
This is a big factor to keep in mind and I strongly agree.
What do you want from life? If you want money and perks, then stay where it is cushy. If you want to push yourself and do interesting and challenging things, then take the plunge.
Personally, I find that most software development jobs pay far more than you need to survive but most just treat you like a cog in a machine and have few opportunities to do interesting things. A good pay check is nice but it is merely existing whereas an exciting job is truly living.
It is worth it when it is better. Taking a pay cut, getting a workload bump, increased stress, losing your sweet benefits, etc is generally not considered "better" when all you get to do is test your wings. Now if it allows real future career growth then you have to weigh everything and decide how risk averse you are. Will the new job be worse for 1 year? 5 years? forever? Will it only be worse for 4 months as that is all the life the small company has left in it?
This is as it should be. Places without architects and places who let the devs make the infrastructure decisions, tend to be on fire all the time, not just putting out the occasional small fire here and there. Devs can be more destructive than users. Letting them do arch work is madness as they tend to have severe "me and my project! Let the world burn!" tunnel vision. They tend to also have skill sets which will not allow them to do architecture as well as a specialized/competent architect.
You are under-estimating the odds of the new company failing, or the job just not working out.
Seriously, your resume should show you moving UP to better positions at bigger companies.
The kind of lateral move you are considering is just not good for your resume or career.
Take some side projects you can do with the latest and greatest technologies on evenings and weekends.
You will polish the skills on your resume, have a little fun, and make a little extra money.
Needless to say, this small company wants someone to take their system into the modern age, which means re-design/new architecture, implementation, maintenance, team lead, etc
Be vary wary of this line. I've had friends do this exact same jump and it is usually followed by heart-break and another job search. Many small companies say that this is what they want, but what usually happens is that the established culture just will not change and you end up as "that guy" who steps on everyone's egos and ends up not "being the right fit after all".
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Don't take a pay cut to go to the smaller company. If they really value you, they'll at least match your salary or compensate you with equity accordingly. If they can't do that, be concerned.
OTOH, I could recommend taking a pay cut to go from a small unstable fast paced company to a larger more stable better work-life balance company. Kind of the opposite situation of what you're asking.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
I worked for about eight years for a Fortune 500 (actually its ranking was two digits... and it wasn't #99). Benefits were great, pay was very good since they let me relocate from NYC (cripplingly high taxes) to FL (no state or city taxes) and keep my NYC salary and bonus. Flipside, I'd already had to change career paths entirely within the organization (from engineering to product management) in order to get a promotion, because the peristalsis was just too slow. And on every side, beset by "you can't get there from here" processes and conflicting goals. The analogy I used was that the company was trying to use a standard process built around the nuclear weapons industry in order to make toy dolls, and wondering why it could never get a project finished in time to be relevant. The only turnover to speak of was people who came in, tried to get things done, and were either torpedoed by vested interests, or gave up the struggle and moved on to other pastures where they could satisfy their thirst for meaningful achievement. About a year ago, I happened across a job posting for a small software company close to my new home in FL. Much smaller, but *DOING THINGS* and generally accelerating upwards. I negotiated the same salary, but no bonus, no 401k match, and generally smaller benefits all round. So I took a "pay" cut of perhaps $20-25k, all things considered, but I do not regret the move for one microsecond; I've already had one promotion, of a sort, and I enjoy what I do (when I'm not cursing at it - hey, this is software, after all! :)). Other people in my position might have felt differently - especially those closer to retirement and looking to stick with a dead-end railroad job to harvest benefits. I'm not young, but I'm also not anywhere near an age where retirement will be possible. And a considerable amount of my personal happiness is tied up in the question "what useful thing did I get done today?"
TL;DR: this is a personal decision and you have to decide how much risk you're willing to stomach. And yes there is the possibility you'll be screwed, either maliciously or simply because your employer had expectations beyond what any one person can achieve. All of us on the other side of the internets can't make the judgement call for you as to whether this is a possible malice situation - you've spoken to this new employer, we haven't - and as for the expectations-too-high part, the way to manage this is with explicit goals, preferably chopped up into slices no bigger than three months. Check in frequently to make sure management knows how you're progressing and what things are slowing you down.
Why aren't you simply trying to get a promotion to "Architect" at your company? Why aren't you making decisions there? Is there a reason, or are they simply asshats that don't like you? Since they are successful, I doubt it is the latter.
If you join a startup that fails as a regular employee it is less money and no good times. It is neutral to negative on your resume.
If you join a startup that fails as a decision maker, it is less money, no good times, and you are the failure, costing good people money and career advancement.
If you join a startup that is successful it is for less money, hard work, and a swell of money and good feelings when it crests that hump. Then it rapidly becomes mundane and slow changing.
Slashdot poses scenarios to further profile their users to generate more data sales.
I'd never hire someone with your attitude. Someone who puts money above all else is not the kind of person I want to be around or to employee. Even if your asking salary was well within my budget.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
I did a couple of career changes. I went from nuclear power to radiological controls to IT. I took a HUGE cut when I got into IT. Was it worth it? I think so. I'm back up into the the 150K range which is probably more than I would have for the previous two. Everytime, I did something I wanted to. I have been in IT longer than I thought but I kind of still enjoy it.
I'm about 5 years away from making another change that will either put me at Home Depot or driving some type of truck on a routine delivery/pickup route. It will be a HUGE pay cut I don't want to be doing IT for the rest of my life living the rat race. I want to do something for myself and relax while I work and have far less responsibility and I'm willing to take the pay cut to do it. I'm in my 40's now. In 10 years, if I have to have to have a job that I make more than $40-50K a year just to make meet my bills and debt load, I have failed. So far with some bumps, I am on the right path. The Jones may currently have nicer cars, more jewelry, take "cooler" vacations, and a much bigger house then we do but their debt and financial future is not as nearly as sound as mine.
"Bennies" is only 1 letter short of "benefits", why abbreviate this? What's a "vibe" culture? It's cutesy reasons like this (and the fact you're spamming as AC) that you probably aren't going to get much interest, I certainly wouldn't take a second look at this organization after reading this.
Have a squat over at the hobo house.
wants someone to take their system into the modern age, which means re-design/new architecture, implementation, maintenance, team lead, etc
Do you mean you got a chance to work on /. Beta?
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
If it is a small paycut, then you can perhaps get more. I have experienced this same several times. Each situation is different. Sometimes you need to follow your feeling, sometimes you need to be rational.
What can help is to make a personal vission and mission statement. Write it down and let others read it and ask them if that is something they recognize you in. Don't leave out your non-work related goals.
If anything, t will help you understand what you actually want and where your priorities are. Then compare that with what you have and what is offerd and it will be easier to decide.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
The important part is having no regrets.
If you don't do it now, you'll always regret not having taken this opportunity. Do it and put all of your self behind it.
Even if the small company fails to grow as expected, you'll have gained valuable experience. Being involved with a start-up is a great experience not just on technical aspects, but on human and economic ones as well.
If you agree to a pay cut, then you do so with the complete and full understanding that it will be very difficult to make that up down the road. You will almost certainly have to leave the new company to go to yet another job to make up for the salary you are giving up. And note that there are no guarantees that you will be able to find another job that will pay you more, especially if you don't live in a large metro area. If you really think that you must take the other job, hold out for the same money. Refuse to take a pay cut and stick to it. If you are good then they will pay it. I can tell you from personal experience that salary offers are a game to HR and they like to lie about what they can pay because HR people are either sociopaths or they get their own pay based on how much they can screw you out of by talking you down to a lower offer. The odds are pretty high that this new company can match your current pay, but they always like to play the "We're a poor, young start up who can't compete on salary" card because guys like you fall for it.
I work for a company that was a successful start up that got bought out by a Fortune 500 company. I have no problems working for The Man. But a lot of my co-workers just could not take working for a big company and they left. One of the problems I have seen with them is that they tend to romanticize everything about their start up days and their egos are gigantic as a result of being part of a successful start up, so I have seen them leave for various other start ups that - wait for it - failed. Stun. Shock. Disbelief. Are you really comfortable that this new company is going to be around in a year? I saw a handful of co-workers all leave to go to the same start up within a short period of time and they all got laid off within at most 2 months of leaving us. I agree with what another poster says in warning you that you are likely to be on call all the time in this new job and have your stress level go up. Yeah, sure, it sounds great, but think about what could go wrong because I promise you the odds are higher that this new company will fail than it will succeed. Small companies are notorious for their pie in the sky promises that don't come true. On a different job some years ago, I had a couple of co-workers who left before the big Internet stock bubble hit and they passed up maybe $30,000 in stock options that they never got because they left. Their new job promised them shares in the company and they did really get them, but when the company got sold they got somewhere between $2000 and $5000. Everybody thought that they were going to get a lot more than that who got the shares, but that's what happened. I never had the heart to tell them how much they passed up by leaving.
Side note... where do you work now? Like... specifically what's the address to send resumes?
Young? Childless? Full of piss and vinegar? If yes to any or all, take a chance.
No beer and no TV make Homer something something
I've been through this: -Mind the work life balance, small companies could easily get you on the hook for late nights and consistent weekend work. -Get your job title and expectations in writing. If you're an architect, you're taking on a mentor and even a managerial role to an extent. This needs to be in writing. -Who do you answer too? If the company is really small their structure might not be firmly established, which will cause issues. -What is the atmosphere like? You may be coming from a peaceful work place to one where co-workers badger each other, are stressed out, over worked and have an unwritten 'pecking order'. -Consider getting an ownership stake in writing for after you've been there for a 6 months - year, increasing thereafter. -Who are their customers and what is their revenue? If they loose their biggest customer what happens? Finally - -Most small companies fail however they all have big dreams. Be careful.
Louis Pasteur died on Sept. 28, 1895. His last words were, “One must work; one must work, I have done what I could.” As you must work, if you are not happy with your work you are diminishing that part of your life.
There are lots of things to consider beyond just pay. How stable is the new company? What are the long term prospects of both companies and your positions? What is best for your career? Health Benefits? Even something as seemingly unimportant as whether or it significantly lengthens or shortens your commute can matter.
I left in both cases and went to jobs that ultimately didn't work out but they both opened doors to other opportunities I wouldn't have otherwise had.
One thing I do recommend is that if you do leave, give your current company ample notice and offer your future time (for a fee) to help them through any transition. By not burning bridges you may allow yourself the opportunity to come back if the new job isn't what you had hoped.
Another option would be to talk to your current supervisor (or theirs) to see if there is something that could be done to get you on a more rewarding path in your current job.
In a large company, you are a specialist. You will have the opportunity to become a specialist in another area of the work if you want, but nobody gets to be a soup to nuts guy. The grass may look greener on the designers' side of the fence but it isn't. They're just as constrained as you are.
On the other hand, it's stable. They'll pay you reliably and well.
In a small startup, you are a generalist. You won't just have the opportunity to do everything, you'll have to. And you have to get good enough at it to be effective. Like everyone else in the company, you're responsible for the bottom line. Your work is complementary or else you pound pavement.
Risky. But you won't be pigeonholed.
At the end of the day it's not about the salary. You'll spend more than 2,000 hours at work this year. That's a heck of a lot of time. Will working as a specialist make that time more enjoyable? Will working as a generalist?
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Answer in two parts:
1) it actually is a better opportunity
2) you can afford the pay cut/risk.
I've had it with small companies. During the '00s I twice started with small companies only to hear "pay will be late" at the end of an early pay period, then "pay is just around the corner" by the end of the next pay period. In one case, the CEO simply never paid; I left before the third no-pay period was over, demanding that I be paid for my hours, to which he basically replied "so sue us!" I didâ"but only managed to recoup some of what I was owed.
This is nothing new, nor is it specific to small companies; I think you meant "startups." Textile companies used to do the same BS, not paying workers, during the industrial revolution. It's why, for example, in MA it is a CRIMINAL matter upon the officers of the company if employees are not paid within a certain amount of time for work done. Furthermore, the law is written such that BOTH the state and you individually can pursue action against them concurrently/independently.
It's also why, if terminated or laid off, you must walk out the door with any and all money owed to you. It's not a defense that the guy who signs the checks is only in on Tuesdays, or they need to figure out how much to take out of your paycheck for purchases from the company canteen, etc. Why? Because they're choosing to end your employment, and they can choose to do so at any time. So they should terminate employment on Tuesday, after they've done the necessary calculations.
If you are reading this, live in MA (and probably a bunch of other states), and have a pay period that is not at least semi-monthly (biweekly if you're paid hourly) unless you're salaried and agreed to be paid monthly...or you have not been paid within one pay period for your work...stop reading, step outside, and call your State AG immediately, or at least read something like http://www.lexology.com/librar...
Please help metamoderate.
At 29 I left my big government contractor company to go to a small company. My motivations were (1) An affordable place to raise a family (Raleigh, NC) and (2) C++ being on the decline.
.NET programmers is outrageous, and all over the place so that helped.
The switch was a MAJOR hurdle since I had to take a pay cut (about 25%, but about the same considering the locale cost of living differences). After 3 years I'm at a company that pays me what I was making earlier except it is totally private sector and no beaurocracy nonsense and I feel like I'm contributing something real in the world. The demand for
Anyway, I'm sure your factors weigh differently in some of these things (age, location, technology you are leaving, technology you are moving toward).
I'm afraid that when I have my degree and get a job it's going to be boring.
The question you need to ask yourself is... what's my life worth? Do I want to spend the next few years doing something that bores me just because I'll have a bit more money to throw around? or do I want to be happy because I love what I'm doing and it challenges me and lets me be creative?
My family lives on less than $15k a year right now. When I get my degree and get a job I'm looking at $50k. When I think about this I ask how much do I really need to be happy? In general, as a family, we're happy right now.
Given the chance at a job I love or which furthers my goals for $40k and a job which will bore the hell out of me and doesn't help me grow beyond what any job would do for $60k a year... I think I'd take that $40k job. In fact I know I would.
If you are so lucky to believe in a product and a company, that's more than a job, that's a home, that's family.
The problem with making a lot of money these days is you bubble to the top of the spreadsheet when the executives are calculating their bonuses and looking for someone to fire. The days of good-paying jobs seem to be coming to an end. Management doesn't know how to do anything but fire people, outsource what they used to do, and pocket the difference as a bonus. If your company isn't like this now, it could be almost overnight.
Putting all the finances, benefits aside for a moment (since they've been covered to death earlier), you have to realize that modernizing an existing established piece of software is a huge mine field. Trust this from soneone who's had to deal with several large projects varying from small refactoring of existing architectures to complete software rewrites. There aren't many happy problems, as you'll often face problems with integration, performance, ops support, stakeholder buy-in's, resistence from users (for every even trivially minor change to the existing platform), etc..
So much of this problem is out of your hands that you'll always need to keep a lengthy detachment from the process or go insane frustrated that nothing works the way you like, and in the end its a system that you'd wish was never born. It could take years of maintenance and bug fixes before the software gets to the point where you'd consider it 'good enough'.
Be very sure you want to load yourself up with this responsibility, because I assure you, that there's no easy solution for this problem domain, which is why large software consultencies charge obcene amounts of money at companies wishing to update/rewrite their legacy systems.
Bye!
most of the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers
Sounds like you either want to be an architect, but are unqualified, or you don't know what an architect does (or is supposed to do).
Skill up and move to architecture, that sounds like what you want to do. But you should probably stop hating on them before you become one of them. If you were a better developer, you'd have more respect for them. So maybe you should work on your skills for what you do now, first.
Learn to love Alaska
So much angst for so little existence!
keep your current job, get a hobby.
over anything else.
I've been thru so many downsizings (mostly due to outsourcing or the company outright failing and having to cut expensive employees such as myself) that I'll take a stable company over an 'exciting' one.
a cut in salary is nasty, too! I would not prefer to do that and the longer you hold your current higher paying job, the more 'area under the curve' you accumulate. the cost of living is NOT going down and so taking a pay cut is a double cut, effectively. its going backwards.
I would only do that if I had no other choice.
boring is FINE. if you have a safe job there, don't fuck with it. this is not the 90's or the 00's where things were more in employees' favor. its still an employer's market and there are no signs of it going back to being an employees' market any time soon.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Maybe one out of a thousand. If it's a better career they should pay you more. Otherwise it's an Avocation not a Vocation.
I doubt they are that old. Maybe 30s, probably 20s.
Generally, older generations understood that we work to live. We can't live without food and shelter is pretty important too.
Once you get beyond that... all those fun, fulfilling ways to spend the limited time you are alive, few if any get you paid and most cost money. So.. you work for it. Then you take the money and do something that actually has meaning to you. If your job is paying you well and it isn't killing you then you are half way there! Now use your nights, weekends and vacation time to go out and LIVE!!!
The current generation seems to have it backwards. They live to work. So... they NEED a job that fulfills them. The problem is jobs don't do that. Working sucks. That's why someone is willing to pay you to do it!
If you have good pay AND good benefit time then you have something worth holding on to. Keep earning that money. Put some away for retirement. Take the rest out with you during that benefit time and enjoy it!
Not everyone is suitable for a small company, some think they are but have no small company skills.
* Do you go home at 5pm everyday?
* Do you take lots of vacations ?
* Have you ever thought "that's not my job?" ?
* Do you have other financial responsibilities (family)?
* Do you prefer to keep your head below the parapet ?
If you go into a job thinking how do I protect myself from stock dilution, how can I make up for pay cuts I took ? You should stay where you are. You don't seem to have the right risk profile for a small company.
No reasonable small company would give you anything but a negligible share of the stock pool - and if they do I would treat that as a red flag. Theya re paying you a salary - if you want significant ownership you need to be there before that pay salary (i.e. founder).
I've taken multiple pay cuts and I know I make less that I could elsewhere - but I would argue that each position I took helped me get to where I am now (second start-up founder), but I could' have know that when I started trading pay cuts for different jobs 20years ago.
Would you have taken a 20% pay cut to leave the company I'd only ever wanted to work for my entire life (I was third generation at the company)
Would you have taken a 20% pay cut to team up with your ex-boss when he got a new job in a small company ?
Would you have given up that job to then start your own thing ?
When that company was acquired, would you have left the acquirer and thrown away a $750k retention package to try it again ?
All were risky adventures - but they were adventures. Not everyone is an adventurer, you won't be happy until you work out what you want....
Salary is how others value you, how do you value yourself ?
richard.
Let me guess -- you currently work for The Mathworks?
No one can honestly answer that as it depends in a lot oft personal factors. Ecample: Stability oft the company. Beside the point that we do not know how financial stabile the company is, we also do not know if you are that mich afraid og such incident. How important is this for you? And there are hundrets of other similar questions.
Make an educated guess. Or become an architect yourself.
I assume this entire piece is a work of fiction, but I would never work for a software house that had its IT department divided into architects and developers.
If you've got a family and responsibilities like a mortgage, it's time to grow up, buckled down, and stick with the job that is going to be a career, not a contract.
If you have financial freedom and no responsibilities, you have to ask yourself whether you're more concerned about saving and building for the future than having fun at work.
Last but not least, you may well get to make decisions at the "new job", but that also means you're responsible for the systems and you can kiss your personal life good bye as you deal with 24x7 on-call support.
Personally I never want to work for a small company except as a contractor again. As a contractor, your pay is laid out, you have no benefits, and everyone knows what's expected right from the get-go. As an employee, you're expected to vaguely "contribute" above and beyond the coding aspects of the job, and I can pretty much guarantee you'll be expected to "contribute" far more than you ever thought you'd have to (without overtime, no less.)
Personally I'd stick with the stable job for a career, and start up an open source project to work on from home for the evenings and weekends to provide the "challenging" part of programming that keeps me entertained. Never confuse a job with a life -- a job will never give you a life unless you let it suck you dry. And it's not much of a life worth living if you let it do that.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Yep, you can go with a large stable company, but you can get stuck on an old product tht they're not going to put a penny into, except for maintenance.
Or you can go with a small company, which may let you work on whizzy fresh stuff. Or they may be so small and poor they can't afford to have you work on new stuff that doesn't bring in money yet, you can get stuck supporting their not so old but often poorly engineered and poorly coded product.
I've been at both kinds. Each has its pluses and minuses. I tend to favor the smaller places, you have a better chance of making a difference. You also have a better chance of finding the sherriff putting legal notices on the doors.
You run for President of the Unites States because it means power and prestige and when you retire there will be ample opportunity to sutff your wallet.
I've been through this a few times and, strangely enough, I've found wisdom in a small speech from a mediocre movie that's helped with my last few.
To paraphrase:
There's no such thing as a tough decision. We make hundreds of decisions each day and, over the course of a year, the number of decisions we make runs into tens or even hundreds of thousands. We only think decisions are hard when we don't like the answer that we've come up with.
The movie was otherwise forgettable, but that quote has stuck with me and I've used it on quite a few occasions to try to listen to whatever voice inside me has already decided and drown out the conscious thoughts that are trying to undermine that decision with logical arguments. It looks weird to type, but I've found that whether it's decisions in a relationship, career or even what to eat for dinner, starting from the position that I've already made the decision and then trying to figure out what my decision was makes the decision making process easier.
Listening to your description, I can guess at the decision you've made. But I encourage you to read your own words aloud as if they aren't yours and try to figure it out for yourself. Chances are you're trying to talk yourself into either staying or going. There's no guarantee that this will help you arrive a the correct decision. But it will at least help you determine which outcome you actually want.
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
I have the perfect job for you. Lots of freedom to make decisions, long hours, lousy pay and benefits. I would love to swap if your interested!
Stay where you're at and once you learn why "most of the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers", then look elsewhere.
I'm not saying this to bust on you really, but architects really do serve a valuable role.
is similar to yours. I had a relatively cushy job working for the local government. It was a great training ground and I had advanced as far as I could go. The pay was OK but not great and raises were hard to come by. I got an opportunity to take a job with a very small company (less than 10 employees) doing what looked like really interesting work.
The pay was less than what I was making and I had to move to a more expensive city. But the opportunity excited me and I was young so I took it. Best move I ever made. The small company never went public or anything like that but I learned a great deal and it positioned me to take on increasingly responsible (and lucrative) roles in the future.
I'm convinced that if I had stayed in my cushy government job I would still be making peanuts and wishing I'd done something else with my life.
It taught me that the worst move you'll ever make is the move you never make. Sometimes you have to take a step sideways, or even backwards, in order to get ahead.
Most of us have learned this back in the 90's or 00's... When your new employer says "We're a young startup, we can't afford to pay you the going rate but we're going to give you stock options." You are immediately to ask: "1 ply or 2 ply?"
You will need to prioritize, and noone can do it for you.
On the benefits side, improved work life quality. Think about it; mon-fri people spend more than 50% of the time they are awake, working. And the life quality of remaining time, is influenced by work satisfaction. Work satisfaction is not an unimportant thing! Sure, we can do the noble "I sacrifice myself for the rest of my family and keep a job I don't like just so everyone else can be happy" thing. But there _is_ an I in family, and it is ok to think about oneself as part of the equation. From what OP is writing, there may also be opportunities to work on new types of assignments, leading to an improved CV, leading to possible later economic benefits?
Disadvantages. A pay cut is something tangible which can easily be related to. "Other benefits" would depend, e.g. health insurance and those types of things are not to be taken too lightly. But ... these are very tangible benefits that are possible to prioritize.
Risk. This is the tough one. What is the probability that you end up with a good scenario. And the probability that Murphy's Law kicks in, and you end up without a job, not able to get the old job back, and suddenly things look grim. I would like to think of this similar to gambling and financial investments. If the scenario that you lose is unacceptable, and the risk of that happening is not miniscule, then the risk is probably too high. Problem is it is hard to assess what is the real risk; whether the job is as good as the sales pitch.
Maybe it is possible to do some negotiations, if you are leaning towards not taking the job, then trying to get a better deal would not hurt. Letting them understand that you need them to provide some safety net before you are willing to jump ship.
I am guessing you work in the US. In my opinion, the impact of losing one's job is one of the worst "features" of the US work economy, and it is sad to see US colleagues holding onto their jobs for dear life. The free economy thinking has taken it one step too far, hindering work mobility - which hurts the economy. When the risk associated with taking a new job involves a potential "I may end up with no health coverage" scenario, and no financial safety net, I can see why people stick around with a job they find less than exciting, and put up with all sorts of crap from management to work extra hours etc. to keep the job. Plus always appearing super excited about everything related to work, keeping up good appearances. And just as bad for the work place ... employees who deliberately sabotage work processes to make themselves indespensable, the "noone else knows how this setup which I never documented works, so they can't fire me" type of mentality - and falling into "group think" mentality, afraid to criticize poor management or processes. I am seriously glad I don't have to work in the US.
Anyways, good luck with the decision!
As someone who has been through this multiple times and am about to do it again..I will say this: Nobody can make this decision for you. People will be giving advice on their own unique experiences from their own perspective. You have to weigh all the variables (pay, bennies, stability, co-workers, work/life, job satisfaction) and make the decision yourself...and rarely will you actually know what the best decision was until it's too late. In favor of the opportunity seekers, don't let the family obligations or uncertain stability scare you off so long as you have a skillset in demand and 3-6 months savings to fall back on. If favor of stability seekers, there will be problems everywhere you go. You will never have the perfect job, and don't underestimate the importance of work/life balance. Too much stress can crush your energy for hobbies/side projects.
The only wisdom I can share with you that is universally viable is if you decide to leave your job, exit not just gracefully but like a champion. Document everything you can, have passdown meetings, wrap up loose ends and leave your contact information. Your employer will remember this and will leave the door open should they have a good fit for you down the road. I've had 3 employers try to bring me back. It's good to have options isn't it :)
Sounds like you are more concerned with job security rather than a better job. First things first.
Get out of debt. Let me repeat myself: GET OUT OF FUCKING DEBT!!!!!! That means no student loans, no credit cards, no car payments, and if you can swing it no house payments and if you can make it happen some investment income so you don't have to pay for groceries.
Once you have that out of the way you will be free to pursue interesting jobs without worring so much about getting "screwed" over in the future for pay or promotions because it won't really matter all that much to you.
Even a "bad" job can teach you a lot of usefull things and expand your experience.
Id rather have the job where i am in at 9 and out by 5, 5 days a week, with a massive amount of vacation time. I dont care how nice another job would be, no job is a good job that keeps you there more than 40 hours a week. Life is short, and you need time to enjoy it, not sitting in some awful office. A huge plus would be the ability to work from home or these days with wireless, wherever i want.
Is there a possibility that a change is possible within your current company? It sounds like you're not unhappy with your employer, just your position. If they are a great company to work for, maybe you should bring up your concerns with them about making a move within the company to stretch your wings a little.
The best way to make that happen might be with the new job offer in hand. Ask for a meeting with your manager, and stress that you're not unhappy with the company, but that this opportunity came your way and it gave you a chance to reflect on what you want out of your career. Lay out what you would like to see change in clear, concise language. If you can't put it into words, that tells you that you need to think it through some more to make it clear to yourself exactly what you are after.
If they can't meet your needs where you're at, then it's time to give notice and take the offer. If they get all offended and fire you, then it probably was time to go anyway and you can let the new company know that you want to get started immediately.
Just remember: the grass on the other side of the fence might really be greener, but it could just be because of the extra fertilizer.
(Sorry - the subject is a joke brought on by people warning you not to read posts that tell you to do this)
Maybe the money is really bad. Maybe they're ripping you off. Maybe you have a family to feed. Maybe you have a car payment. Or a house payment. Maybe for some other reason you just really need the money. In that case stay exactly where you are.
Otherwise you should move - money is a pointless thing to hold out for. The average family of four makes 50k in the US today. I expect this pays fine compared to that. Be realistic, be cautious, but go where it's interesting. Wasting your life in a boring job is silly.
I've worked for a variety of companies large and small and sometimes had to take a step sideways or backwards.
Rule #1 - The only real job security you have is your skills, network and ability to find work.
Example 1: I just switched jobs 3 months ago. I worked for a stable mid-market company in a 2nd tier job West Coast market with solid profitability, above average comp for the market for the top performers, good work/life balance, and a fairly flat revenue/market cap. Everybody there acted like they were lifers - the organization got 1/2 as much done as it could have, but everybody thought it was safe and stable because they made money hand over fist on their subscription based product and did just well enough to stay in the best of breed band in their market. But the reality is every stable, profitable company has someone willing to take it and squeeze it for more. That was nine months ago, 8 months ago they announced they were being taken private, 6 months ago the deal closed, and now it's official the company HQ is moving to a mid-America 3rd tier market and it's pretty clear that the timeline for the rest of the location is end of the year at best. And since the comp is above average in an above average market with new owners that have a financial model squarely centered on keeping labor costs (well) under 50th percentile they figure nobody will take the move and the paycut so pretty much no non-executives are being even offered a relocation. Everybody who was any good and had been there less than five years have already left - the rest are left wandering the beach aimlessly waiting for the tsunami to come to shore.
So...sometimes you have to move and take a "cut" in some ways. Just remember:
Rule #2 - Nothing not in writing maters. And even that is iffy.
Got bit by that once - and if they are are small or sleazy enough even if it's in writing it doesn't matter. No point in suing when 0 chance of recovering damages and they know it.
Example 2: Took a job to "build an embedded team" (in a Java shop) with a huge pay cut. Offer letter promised stock, six and twelve month salary adjustments, and at least 3 new hires within the first six months. Company was cool, team was great, office was great. We were downtown on the river, had a pub 40 feet down the hall. But there was no money. The next "round" never closed, the stock pool was exhausted at the time the letter was written, worked a year as a team of one and left. Would have bailed sooner except the job/team/office was very cool...loved coming to work every day...but was starving figuratively and somewhat literally.
So...weigh your options but long term it pays to shift and reinvent yourself once and a while. Myself and most of my peers recognize peoples ability to reinvent themselves on a resume...as long as it's not every year :-).
Reasons to make major changes in comp and/or size:
1. Move up in title. Many (most) people who make a senior management title or exec role do it in part by taking a shift down in size or salary to move up in title and then scale up from there.
2. Validate a title or role. Maybe you want to be a manager/director/architect. Maybe every company you have had a major role at is out of business or so small nobody has heard of them. Maybe you've lead a few teams here and there but didn't have that key word in the job title. You might go into a less interesting role to validate your resume at that level and title by taking the role at a larger or more recognizable company even if work is less interesting.
3. Make more money. Maybe you've done #1 and/or #2 and now you're finally being offered that director salary and role at a big company that throws money around. You're going into your peak earning years, your 401k has been ravaged by the past decade, go for it.
4. Have fun. Maybe you've done #3, or you were lucky with your investments or you picked the right startup. You've got retirement secured, your bored, go have fun.
For instance when engineering jobs in manufacturing dried up I had the choices of rare consulting gigs, academic jobs at a pay cut and zero job security or moving into IT with a huge pay cut but stable employment.
I went to work for a small startup in the late 1980's - I was the 7th employee. The attraction (decent, but not great salary, and reasonable benefits) was that I would get to do the sort of work I really wanted to, including basic software R&D for real-time systems. I was there for 18 years and when I left I had a salary in the 6 figures, plus stock, options, and that other sort of stuff. I also won a US patent as sole inventor for adaptive system software, published articles in major technical magazines, presented invited papers at IEEE and ACM conferences, contributed a chapter to a graduate text book on application development frameworks, and ended up as a director/chairman of an IEEE affiliate group (with the IEEE certificate hanging on my office wall to prove it).
So, I can only say, follow your dream! A career is not just a job! :-)
And best luck to you. All that said, do appropriate dilligence to assure yourself that these are the kind of people you want to work with. I did, and what I found just reinforced my decision to join the company. FWIW, one of the people who I hired to manage our QA department (after I formed the department and developed our QA processes) is now a VP of QA at IBM. Others are venture funders, directors of other tier-one companies, entepreneurs, senior engineers and managers/directors for companies such as Applied Materials, Intel, Samsung, etc. That one company, when I started, had zero in revenue. A few years later, we were #22 on the INC 500. When I left, we were a software organization with in excess of $200M in annual revenues and our software ran (and still runs) most semiconductor, disc drive, and flat panel display manufacturing plants in the world.
"Needless to say, this small company wants someone to take their system into the modern age, which means re-design/new architecture, implementation, maintenance, team lead, etc...."
So it's a small shop with a dated IT system and they're lowballing you. From my own experience, this likely means one of two things:
1. Software and/or IT is not their main product: So it's a cost that they want to keep under control and they're clearly done so for quite some time.
2. If they are in tech, then they're having difficulties (otherwise, why lowball you?) and not worth your time.
You're definitely right to look for more interesting work--a mistake I made in my twenties--but this isn't the place.
Stay right where you are: max out your pension fund contributions, enjoy the perks your current employer provides, and take some contract work on the side to satisfy your need for challenge. Figure out how much money you need to retire comfortably and work toward accumulating that money as fast as you can. Then retire. You'll be much happier. Trust me, not having to respond to an alarm clock 5 or more days a week is very nice.
I would never treat employees that way.
If a career was just about money, at least half the jobs out there would never get filled. Artists wouldn't create. Teachers wouldn't teach. Open source developers would all get jobs at Accenture. No one would work for the government or a non-profit. And everyone would work for the highest bidding company.
Some other things that matter: life balance, interesting work, good management, respect for your company/product, coworkers, city, flex time, vacation time, work environment, travel, stability, ethics, fairness, impact...
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
A job with great benefits with little or no expectation VS a job with sucky benefits that expects you to actually produce. The job with great benefits wins. Sure, you might regret "taking the chance" somewhere down the road and you might feel somewhat unfulfilled professionally. But happiness isn't always about job satisfaction. I personally don't work to enjoy the 40 hours that I put in each week. I work to so that I can pay to enjoy the other 128 hours. I know that doesn't sound 'cool' but its the truth. If I can enjoy my time off with less stress and effort then I win.
that is, until the state got involved thanks to myself and one other person. Then, one day, the building was locked, the board was gone to Europe, and all dozen or so employees were standing outside the door baffled and unpaid, from what I understand. I got out sooner, by about two pay periods, and got mine back before it *all* went down.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
post-industrialized nations, it's a pretty common thing to find that the failure to pay owed wages is considered a serious problem.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
A lot of what you say here is total BS.
Artists do work, usually, because of a passion for their art. Teachers, OTOH, frequently get into it because it's a solid job and pays decently in many places (not all; some are downright lousy, but others are not). I've met several teachers who fell into it rather than seeking it as a career; basically they didn't have anything better to do and it looked good (one was recruited to it). Open source developers are not all volunteers; many of them are well-paid at corporate jobs. Ask all the developers at Red Hat. This is another big myth. Government jobs pay well, are extremely stable, and have fantastic benefits. Some pay fantastically well too. In the state where I live, every little municipality (about 550) has a separate school district, and the district's superintendants all make $250k. You think they do these jobs for passion and not money? Non-profit executive frequently make huge salaries; being a non-profit doesn't mean the pay is crap, it just means there isn't any profit left over for shareholders.
Yes, there's definitely a balance; money isn't everything, and other factors are important too: time off, location (and cost-of-living), quality of the work, work environment, etc. However I've noticed that (in my industry at least) typically the companies that pay peanuts usually are very deficient on most of these other things too. The big companies that pay well usually do much better all around, except maybe quality of work (being big equals lots of bureacracy and slowness usually). The small companies may give you really interesting assignments, and a lot more responsibility (less overhead and employees, you get more power to make your contribution to the project), but everything else about them totally sucks. It's quite a conundrum really.
Almost all startups fail.
Every startup owner thinks his will be the exception.
But...Every now and then a person has to take a gamble.
By the way... do you play poker?
Are you actually good at it?
(Yeah, Me neither.)
I have a good friend who left a stable job at a large store's IT department for a startup. Two years later the store was reorganized and closed the division in our state and laid off all the IT department. His startup's stock earned him about $50k when the startup sold. So, he not only got a more interesting job, but more stability and more money. Sometimes the risk pays off. More often than not it doesn't. But even if you are in the best job of your life, sometimes you just need a change.
Don't be a fool, you expect what you consider you're worth, what they say they consider you're worth. It may be a gamble on future successes, but ensure a rock solid piece of the future pie if you go that route. A smiley face, promises, and a handshake doesn't mean jack shit in the real world. You can, and will, take that to the bank.
What do you want to do with your life? No-one's biography is about what they got—it's about what they gave.
And remember this: nothing is forever.
1: Could you get more interesting stuff to do currently?
2: How long will this creative phase last in the new job?
3: Will it be a long-term thing? Basically this can only be guaranteed by partnership in the firm.
4: Is money currently a major influence on what you can do with your life?
5: If this company fails after your redesign, how will that look on your CV?
6: Do you know if they will actually listen to your experience or will they hamper you severely by restricting your choices?
Basically, you can't know.
However, try to have a beer with your new collegues first.
Usually you can get them to tell you about what type of place it is to work.
Given current economic trends, you should make as much money as fast as you can until you attain a net worth that will enable you to live independently. Then do what you want. That's all.
So basically, you are asking strangers on the Internet to make a decision for you. One that is very personal and depends on so many individual factors that it is hard even for you to make?
I think what you really want is some help on decision making. Yes, it is probably a tough decision. Nobody is more qualified to make it then you are.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
I was racking in a quarter of a million dollars a year. At first the job fit me, but over time as the infrastructure got built, my job shifted from building out and making things happen, to maintaining, politics and BS. The stress became unbearable, and it wasn't just the stress of politics and corporate BS, it was the stress of not doing what I wanted to be doing. I eventually quit and started my own company where I continue to lose money, but am getting to the turning point. My lesson, do what you want to do, it isn't just about the money, it is about your own satisfaction. If you are considering moving to a lower paying job, then obviously the satisfaction is no longer there.
What do you want? Money or Happiness? If you want both, you need to fill your satisfaction needs and the money may come, but if you cling to the money, eventually the dissatisfaction will have you moving on.
Better career opportunities > rotting in your current job, watching you skills degenerate and your life become an unhappy trudge from sun-up to sun-down.
I would rather leave work earlier, than try to convince myself that great coffee and lifting things is fair compensation for my time. This is like places that provide 'free' lunches - it's just a way to keep you in the office and in front of the screen longer, and too distracted to think about overtime you are putting in. I've worked in 'day-care centre' dev environments, and became increasingly unimpressed with ping-pong tables and toys and shit lying around as I got older.
No one needs a gym. Exercise is something that everyone can do for free in their own time - and running is a lot better for stress and cardiovascular fitness than a few bullshit bench presses. And if you are stressed, I suggest you drink water rather than coffee! (Or any sugary drinks). Fuck being on-call though. That's a service on top of what you're already doing, and you should be able to count those hours using some sort of flexi-time arrangement. Otherwise, you're never really out of work mode, and that's incredibly stressful.
"those who think long, often think wrong."
The defining intellectual motif of our age, ladies and gentlemen.
I took a pay cut of about 15K to work 20 less hours a week and have guaranteed nights and weekends to myself. I just can't spend so much of my life working, learning to live with less also makes life less hectic and overall i'm more happy. I'll never go back to anything over a 40 hour work week just for the sake of proving i'm motivated. There are plenty of people out there who need to feel appreciated at work and will brown nose their way to the top sacrificing much of their youth, for me my lifes work doesn't happen in the office I just have the nack, the rest of my time goes to hobbies.
If you need a challenge, learn to play a new musical instrument. Or buy a old British sports car.
We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion.
At your current job the decisions are made by architects as oppose to developers? Of course they are, that's what architects are for. If you want to do what they do then you need to become an architect.
If you've been working as an engineer for 30 years and you still need the money, you're doing it wrong
You're assuming USA, where a 6 figure salary is something you expect either straight out of college or after a few years at most.
In the rest of the world, this isn't necessarily the case.
I would approach the potential company with a proposition, For the reduced salary, can they make up the difference in purchase options? How can they top up your salary difference.
I would also look at the salary range for the job you are teasing yourself to take. Are you going in at the bottom of the range (or below?)
You will have expenses, some unexpected. Don't go from the good job (frying pan) to the fire.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada