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Quebec Language Police Target Store Owner's Facebook Page
New submitter wassomeyob writes "In Canada, the province of Quebec has their Official Language Act of 1974 (aka Bill 22) which makes French their sole official language. It has famously been used to force business owners to modify signage to give French pre-eminance over other languages. Now, the Quebec language police seem to be extending their reach to Facebook. Eva Cooper owns Delilah in the Parc — a shop in Chelsea, Quebec near the Quebec/Ontario border. She received a letter from the language office telling her to translate everything posted on her store's Facebook page into French."
"Language Police"
Anything after that is kind of irrelevant.
Ok, its a stupid law, and I'm not going to defend it.
But if the Quebec based store is maintaining a website, it needs to have a french translation, and a company's facebook page is little different than a geocities site from 1998, and is just another form of advertising for the company so this is entirely consistent with how the law has been enforced in the past.
Yeah, everyone has upgraded to France Mini. I think that's in Vegas or something.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
Quebec has some bizarre sensibilities, they're definitely not into this whole people-can-decide-what's-best-for-themselves crap. If you think that's bad, you should see their tax rate - believe it or not, taxes go to supporting these bizarre laws. Anyone under the age of 30 who wants to make a life for themselves, in my oppinion, should live anywhere else in Canada.
I live in Québec and because of those law I can't purchase product from the local store because the box is not en French. It happend to me last year where I purchase some headphone (nothing fancy there were even NO paper in the box to explain how to plug it). But since the box wasn't available in French, Best-buy would not have the product, online I could see it but they would refuse to sell it to me if my address was in Québec. So I've went to competitor in Vancouver that is not affected by Québec law and purchase it. Result? The law has remove a sale from my local store and move that else where.
In the late 90s, I worked at an internet software company in Quebec - we developed software for servers and sold it over the internet. No boxed copies, but your standard suite of services - a knowledge base, online documentation, phone and email access to sales and support staff, all of which was based in the province of Quebec.
Eventually, we got big enough to be noticed by the Quebec language police. They sent a letter, and then there were phone calls. They provided us with a list of requirements - you must answer your phones in French first, your web site must have all content that is available in English available in French as well, and so on.
We started costing out the implications of this, especially the confusion of the majority of our international (as in, American) clients. Then someone asked the important question - what happens if we don't comply?
"Well, you won't be allowed to sell to anyone in Quebec!" came the indignant response.
From then on, I took so much pleasure in informing the our small number of Quebec government clients that no, they would no longer be able to buy upgrades, tech support contracts, or anything else. The 98% of our out-of-province sales were unaffected.
Unfortunately, it sounds like Eva runs a brick-and-mortar store, so will need to comply or face actual fines.
Why not translate it into a useful language, like Klingon?
Who did what now?
Well, this is Canada, not France.
Especially Scott. He's a real dick.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
we all know english people won't make any efforts to learn french even if the live in france directly
A shit-ton of French students in high schools and colleges across the U.S. would beg to differ, Monsieur.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Quebec isn't a country. French or otherwise.
To extend this, I've known plenty of people who have lived in Asian countries (for at least a few years) but never really picked up the language. It's one of the advantages of being a native English speaker... you can go almost anywhere on Earth and find people that know enough English for you to live day-to-day life. The only things you really need to pick up are words and phrases with no direct translation.
this is Canada, not France
When it comes to Quebec, what's the difference?
That's like asking what is the difference between a Texan and an american. :)
How fucked up has the world become where everyone gets to decide what a store owner "needs to" do but the store owner.
Oh you mean we shouldn't require people to keep their storefront clear of trash? We shouldn't require them to pay their employees? How about we let them dump hazardous chemicals wherever they want? Look, this language law is stupid both morally and economically but let's not expand the stupidity by claiming that every requirement a business is subjected to is dumb. Some are very good ideas and others not so much. This language law falls into the not so much category.
What I'm confused by is why both France and Quebec are so damn defensive about their language. It's not anything special.
Facebook is an American storefront, not a Quebec one. I did not read the article but this seems very wrong indeed.
---Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START
Vive Jay Sherman. Vive Quebec
Too many people equate "The Law" with morality and consider it a forgone conclusion that whatever "The Law" states must be adhered to, and if violated must be enforced at all costs. Unfortunately there exist just too many unjust, absurd, horrific, ridiculous, and outdated laws such as, Jim Crow, Apartheid, FATCA, the Patriot Act, FATCA, the Nuremberg Laws, .....compulsory TV licensing *even if you don't have a TV*.... Most people who are negatively affected by such laws are usually met with derision and marginalized and told to suck it up by the majority of society simply because "It's the law!". It's a shame that we all live in societies that have placed "the Law" above justice and common decency.
I will. There are a lot of good reasons to have an official language. Costs, same expectations, safety, I could go on.
Most places have a de-facto language or at most two. People need to communicate and they're pretty good at figuring out how. In any locality there is a strong tendency to end up with the same language because of the need to communicate. Making it a law is at best redundant and at worst economically damaging if you take it to the extreme's Quebec has. The US doesn't have an official language because it doesn't need one. Neither does Canada really and I've spent enough of my life in Canada to know.
The US is spending many billions of dollar trying to make every in every language.
Nonsense. At most the US worries about English and sometimes Spanish. You might find other languages in places like airports where people might just be passing through but there is hardly any big effort to accommodate every language out there. You put signs in the most common language and if that eventually changes then you change the sign. Language should follow the people, not the other way around.
I'd actually say that being a native English speaker is a DISADVANTAGE overall. You come to believe that the world must speak in your language, and never make any personal investment in learning the language (or culture) of another land. I am a native English speaker, and felt "disabled" when I live in Europe amongst people that routinely spoke 4-5 languages fluently (including English). Simply growing up with exposure to those languages is enough to help diversify their brain... and in my experience, their outlook on the world as well.
The world is not nearly as US-centric or English-centric as most of us believe.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
Similarly, I am very offended when I call a bank or any other local business and the first thin I am asked is if I speak Spanish, to press '9'.
Now, I also recognize that "speaking English" is not a strict definition. Many natives don't do that very well.
I'm a born and raised anglophone Quebecker. This is an issue I've faced (yes, faced) my whole life. There is a great deal of prejudice and discrimination against anglophones in Quebec, both socially and legislatively. Two applicants to the same job, both perfectly bilingual, one Francophone, one Anglophone, most times the Francophone gets the job. I've had people pick fights with me in bars, because I was speaking English with my friends privately. If you didn't attend English school as a child, you can't send your children to English school. I've gotten attitude from merchants for using the wrong conjugation or gender. The language issues touch every aspect of life here and truly divides Quebec. I've been against these discriminatory laws my whole life. In spite of all this, recently, after the last federal election, I'm starting to get it. Quebec is different than other provinces. The things we care about are different than the general population of North America. We believe in free health care and education for all. Not as a concept, but to the core of our being. It's ironic that we care so much for everyone, but lose sight of it over something as trivial as language. Francophone Quebec is afraid that we're going to lose these differences, this identity by way of dilution of the language. This is where the animosity comes from. It's rooted in fear, not in hatred. The fear of losing the language is justified and real. French is fading and being mixed against the cultural influence of English media. In 50 years, it will be the second language in Quebec. The fact is, today it's a French province with clear laws that signage and publicity must be in French first, and in English second. This said, the language police are overly aggressive and make silly moves like this pretty often.. and unfortunately it undermines Quebec and the social issues it faces. It makes us seem silly and petty to the rest of the world. If you live here, after things like this you have a harsh taste in your throat once you're done rolling your eyes. It is getting better. The next generation understands the world better than the previous generation, and things continue to improve.
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My thoughts exactly. Uninformative crap post. Suppose this is "shocking" news if you are not familiar with Quebec's history and language / culture laws. Really just seems like enforcement of existing laws,
shut the fuck up asshole. we all know english people won't make any efforts to learn french even if the live in france directly.
I am Canadian, I live in Ontario, I am an anglophone, and I went to french immersion school for 4 years, with about 90 other students in my class, and studied with Rosetta Stone for two, but I live in an almost exclusively english area.
I can read french pretty well, but I can't really speak it well due to lack of practice. So anyways, english people do make efforts to learn french. It's usually the French people who put us off of it with attitudes like yours.
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I'm a first-generation Quebecois in America (ugh!) and my French = NULL. I studied it some on my own as a kid and took it for 5 years in school. I also studied Latin for 2 years, and German and Chinese for 1. I tried, I really did.
I can't speak a single damn one of them and can barely read a tourist map.
I studied linguistics for 2 years and was very good at it, but it simply feels impossible to learn another language. The amount of rote memorization, unusual grammar, and idioms makes the task seem insurmountable; I'm done trying. I guess I'm just lazy.
A joke they told in my language classes was that a person who spoke three languages was trilingual, a person who spoke two was bilingual, and a person who spoke one was an American. Without having exposure to many different languages at an early age - not just exposure but living amongst them - Americans are pretty much doomed when it comes to learning a second language. Before the age of 4 children can acquire just about any language with ease, and this decreases until the age of 11 or 12 or so - after that, its really really hard to learn another.
It sucks living in New York City and feeling like I'm the only person who doesn't speak another language, but that's just life. At least I speak only English and not only French.
You're omitting the other if: if the translation is good enough.
Actually it's Bill 101 that is the cause of all this. Basically, Bill 101: french must be everywhere and people who don't speak french aren't people. (disclaimer: I'm french canadian, it's my native language. and I had to learn english on my own starting 16 years ago.)
nope. USA is a country. England is not. The country is "The United Kingdom" of which England is one part.
Well, that comes as a big surprise to those of us who were born in one of the countries that comprise the United Kingdom. All this time we believed that Wales, England, and Scotland were each separate countries, with unique cultures and languages that were just part of the UK. Maybe history and having separate laws and legislative systems got us poor little souls confused.
How lucky we are to have such experts on the InterWebz who can set us straight.
If people are not somehow gently pushed to learn English by speaking it, they have little incentive to do so, and you have these enclaves of foreign-speaking residents who develop a society of their own separate from the rest of the country. Overall, society pays the cost of having to support business (private and government) in more than one language. It does not provide value, except to facilitate tourism and immigration, which I agree may actually be valuable in other regards.
If people were obligated to at least do formal interface with the government in English, they would be more likely to conduct other business in English too, and we would all benefit (me, who does not speak Spanish, could do business with that fraction of the country which currently only does business in Spanish for instance.)
What offends me the most about the calls to the bank is that Spanish is the primary language you hear. I am not offended that they are actually able (and find it profitable) to conduct business in Spanish, it is that Spanish is the first language you hear when you call.
If people are invested enough in this country that they have to have a local bank account, they should be able to understand at least enough English to know that pressing 9 during the first few seconds will get them a Spanish menu without having to be told, in Spanish.
"Country" is actually a bit ambiguous. I believe the most precise way to say it is that England, Scotland, and Wales are three nations incorporated in a single multi-national State, 'the United Kingdom.' (Ireland on the other hand is one nation split between two States.)
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Its important to a small zealot minority. I'm also french Canadian and have lived there most of my life. There's a couple of people who are impossibly vocal about it. The rest don't care or even dread it. They do a heck of a lot more than give slaps on the wrists, with daily fines and penalties, forcing companies to have "councils" that oversee usage of the language, etc.
The only reason stuff like Best Buy is still Best Buy, is because you can negotiate. I worked for a very large international company that opened an office in Montreal. They couldn't realistically comply with all the laws, so they were making deals: one of the deal was to have everyone, including english-only speakers, have only access to french computers/operating systems/keyboards and not be allowed to change them.
Yeah, that was a pain.
I worked for another that was almost exclusively english speakers. We were still forced to translate all our reports in french, including the one offs that were only read by a single specific executive who didn't even know french.
In the end, it hurts competitiveness on a global level. There's a reason salaries are so much lower in Montreal than in other large Canadian cities. The cost of doing business is just insane. So I left.
To see how long that disadvantage lasts look at the frogs, who still dream of the day when the language of education and science was frogish. Even though it's been 200 years.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
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But they absolutely refuse to allow any regions of Quebec the same courtesy.
Not all of Quebec wants to go. If Quebec left at least 25% of Quebec would leave Quebec and join a neighboring Canadian province. Also Quebec would be in a huge mess without the rest of Canada paying it's bills.
Pure version of frogish? Not what the French have told me. More like Mexican is to Spanish.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
English does have some nice features. For example it's one of the few languages that doesn't arbitaraily assign genders to non-gendered words. If you want to talk about a table, you don't have to memorize whether someone thousands of years ago decided tables are male or female for no logical reason.
It's an American problem. If you speak any language but English, then you have an easy pick for second language. If English is your first language then you have to take a gamble. Do you go for Spanish so you can talk with Mexicans? Or maybe French so you can talk with some Canadians? Or maybe something more exotic that you'll probably never use? Maybe Chinese so you'll be prepared for the eventual world takeover, just like all of those people who studied Japanese back in the 80s. Or you could study Japanese because you love anime but hate reading subtitles. Learning a language takes so long that by the time you're good at it, who knows what your life situation will be like.
I read the internet for the articles.
I assume you are an american so I've use one company that you know but name sell electronics. For your information Best buy DO have local store near me that employ local people. Americans don't travel the border state everyday to do work in all Best Buy in Canada :)
I could have name a small company that you have no clue what it is... what's the difference?
England is a country that has been incorporated into an artificial conglomerate along with the countries of Scotland and Whales. These artificial constructs tend to come apart anywhere in the timespan of a few decades to one or two centuries. In fact, the secession movement in Scotland is gaining more ground recently than ever before. And similarly, there are now some new countries to appear as well as among many others the California Republic and the Texas Republic secede from the United States
Hilarious. The artificial construct that you expect to come apart in two centuries at most was established by the Act of Union in 1707 when the UK was formed. Wales and England were joined into one kingdom starting back in 1535. We've had an odd period of dissolving nations, mostly in Europe, since the end of the Cold War, but notice that Quebec rejected independence in two plebiscites already and Scotland is likely to reject independence in its own plebiscite, according to all the polls.
I suppose we can solve the problems with Iran by waiting for the Medes and the Persians to split into two nations? No? Surely they're overdue by now, having been united in 550 BC. Don't hold your breath, though, because one man's Mede is another man's Persian these days.
-Gareth
Therefore I do not understand why those who want to become citizen (or green card holders) simply do not just do that and we let them. I actually know a lot of people who have a green card yet would fail the test I had to go through 20 years ago. I also do not agree that the government should spend taxpayer's money to develop government paperwork (intended for citizens and permanent residents) in languages other than English. Just like you have no expectation of privacy when you use electronic means to communicate, you should have no expectation that the government will develop tools and procedures in languages other than English when these tools are intended for residents and citizen.
If the laws on the books had been reasonably enforced, and if a majority of immigrants had shown a minimum amount of respect for the country that gave them a place to live, we would not have gotten in a situation where 50%+ of the population in an area *only* speaks a language other than English in the first place. Again, I have no beef with people speaking a language other than English, even conducting business in it, I have a problem when I find myself in an area of the USA where *nobody* (or a small fraction) speaks English and I cannot conduct business (or ask for directions) in English. I realize I start to sound like a Republican and that makes me uncomfortable...
I am an immigrant myself, but I would not have considered coming to the USA (or any other country) without having first a basic proficiency in English (or the local language) and improving it once here. I certainly would not have expected (or demanded) that the government generates instructions and forms in any language other than English, or provide a translator. I made it a point to be proficient in English and I would not have come if I had not been able to achieve that. I observe that for those who may not know English before coming here, the local college provides very inexpensive classes for "English as a Second Language" and that many people do take advantage of those, so even if you end up in the US under duress and do not speak English, there is no reason for not learning English once you are here.
I deplore that obviously many do not have such standards or do not take advantage of these classes, but I am not sure we can fix it at this point.
The issue with the banks or hospitals is different since no taxpayer money is involved. The issue is not that they cater to their foreign customers, what bothers me is that they do not even say "for Spanish, press 9" in English. How hard can it be for a Spanish speaking customer of a US bank to recognize the sound of "for Spanish, press 9"? This one is more of a gripe than anything, but it is the most apparent and one that I find offensive because of the pervasiveness of it where I live (north-west Florida, even though the Spanish fraction of the local population is much smaller here than in the rest of the state). I understand in other parts of the country it may be different. That is a personal thing I suppose.