Slashdot Mirror
More On the Disposable Tech Worker
Jim_Austin writes "At a press conference this week, in response to a question by a Science Careers reporter, Scott Corley, the Executive Director of immigration-reform group Compete America, argued that retraining workers doesn't make sense for IT companies. For the company, he argued, H-1B guest workers are a much better choice. 'It's not easy to retrain people,' Corley said. 'The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward.'"
Don't throw your disposable tech workers in the trash. Recycle!
No, its not easy to retain people with an attitude like that....
...IT people are special! They don't need unions because they are so *valuable* to their company that the company wouldn't dare not treat them well!!
Right until their company dares to do so. And they have no alternatives. Idiots.
I suspect he means "not cheap"
FTFA:
"The biggest slap in the face to all of us here is we have to train all of our replacements," said the IT worker. Once that training is completed, the IT workers receive severance pay. Some employees were offered jobs with the offshore firms, but at lower salaries and with reduced benefits, he said.
There's no reason they couldn't be training Americans to replace those jobs.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Yup...
The almighty dollar wins again
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Nevermind that. We need more programs to train inner-city minorities in platform specific technology. It's important for the inner-city youth to hit the work-force just in time for their jobs to be obsolete. Whatever you do, don't you dare teach them abstract concepts that would allow them to synthesize their own intelligent approaches to the ever-changing technological landscape. No. Let them eat iPads.
No that doesnt sounds like a conflict of interest there.
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
'The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies
*cough*BULLSHIT*cough*
Does this guy think that the ONLY place you learn about new things is in school? Is he one of those pointy-haired bosses that doesn't think you know anything unless you have a "cert"?
Technology is always marching forward. EVERYONE needs to march along with it. In real-time. On the job. Constantly.
(That said, I'm an embedded engineer working in C. I'm "revolutionizing" this codeshop by showing them unit testing. And no Larry, just because we refer to them as "units" doesn't mean the blackbox testing we do is "unit-testing". WOOHOO for being on the cutting edge... of the 1970's...)
I'm still with it, see?
And because most of the world is in poverty means we should all be in poverty too! Nothing like race to the bottom equality.
I'm in my late 40s and over the process of 25 years have re-trained myself at least four times to meet the changing nature of IT, and the fact that empires rise and fall.
Re-training is an essential part of a long IT career, not an option at all. To be honest, I paid for my own re-training because nothing concentrates the mind like putting a lot of money into essential skills and vocational training.
The reason why they want more H1-Bs is straightforward - its a lot cheaper. Not better. Cheaper.
Tubby or not tubby. Fat is the question
Even a very quick search indicates that group's interests are on immigration--by that I mean making it easier for more and more people to get into the country and obtain jobs.
Arguing for H-1B to replace trained staff advances this with a nice low up-front cost... But I wonder how such a tech staff would function in the long run?
I am laughing at that quote. I'm not sure you could be more insulting to domestic OR H-1B workers with a statement like that.
As it turns out, most workers are human beings, with individual qualities. Some docestic workers may be reluctant to retrain, others may embrace the opportunity and excel. Likewise, some people with H-1B visas may be incompetent, and others may be valuable contributors.
Disposable? I don't think that is how that reads at all, unless you are unwilling to keep learning.
... to write good, maintainable software. Most college kids these days don't even know what a pointer is. I've had recent college grads ask me how to read a stack trace. I've had college kids who don't know the difference between unit testing, integration testing, and system testing. Sure, maybe they could crank out a Ruby on Rails web site as efficiently as someone with 10+ years of experience. But those are entry level jobs. Most things I learned about software development, I didn't learn in college. I learned them first as a hobbyist, and second with experience in industry. In summary, this argument is BS. Yes, you have to work to keep up on your skills, and yes, it can be time-consuming and hard. But companies who are looking to save money by hiring less experienced workers who happen to have the right skills are setting themselves up for long-term failure. Luckily there are companies out there who realize this.
I'm 54, and I've been working in IT for well over 30 years. None of the technologies I use today existed when I started in the industry. Retraining - either by self education or by evolution in the workplace - is the key to keeping workers relevant.
I think Corley must have been misquoted. His real words must have been something like "We don't care about skills and experience, as long as we can get keyboard fodder at $10/hr".
Ahh yes. The "Because, Markets ; Go Die!" school of philosophy. Neoliberalism (aka the I-had-fun-playing-a-hippie-when-I-dodged-the-draft-but-now-I-want-cash) thinking at its finest.
May the Maths Be with you!
If you want to hire young, recently trained people so you can use them up and discard them before they hit 40, go right ahead and do so.
But don't expect any special help to further your goals.
Those people can simply move to america and become citizens if they want to work you. The whole H1-B visa thing is bullshit.
Or here's another idea. Instead of whining about the impracticality of retraining "old" tech people, why not help them keep their skills up to date while they are working?
Its called an investment! Its not just about money. Investments include your people. If you treat them right, and invest in them, you will get better results.
I'm really getting tired of the American mentality of just using up resources and discarding whats left. Its time to stop being the rugged individualists who just consume everything in their path, and start being members of a functional society that works together and supports one another in a conservationist manner.
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
Corley,
You are an idiot. You fail to grasp the difference between knowledge, skills, and experience. Training and education provide knowledge. The ability to apply that knowledge effectively is a skill. Repeatedly applying knowledge and skills creates a virtuous cycle called experience which increases productivity. Productivity is what increases the bottom line. Sometimes that might even take longer than a quarter...
You're a douche with no understanding of the real world.
"I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
We would much rather pay the cost of having younger workers make the mistakes the older workers learned to avoid. This is the problem we see repeatedly. Younger workers buy into the "Oh look, new, shiny!" Older workers look at this "new" idea and say, "Didn't we try that 5 years ago? and 5 years before that? It didn't work either of those times either."
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
For the company, he argued, H-1B guest workers are a much better choice.
Sure. Why not just take us all out back, put us against the wall, and shoot us? Real responsible attitude, corporate America. What a bunch of fucking jerks. Go ahead, loot and pillage the U.S., what the hell do you care anyway?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Statements like these are all the more reason aging tech workers like myself need to build their own businesses so they don't have to rely on the "good graces" of an employer.
The next time you decide to make such a brain-damaged statement, let me suggest the following:
1st, climb down off the whore you are fucking in the ass
2nd, pull your head out of the toilet you are eating shit from
finally, take another huff of glue to clear your head.
we throw things away everyday, why ? a need 4 retraining states that there was a lack of discipline 4 the original training to be effective. retraining does not exist, only trying to create discipline in an undisciplined mind. slayerwulfe cave
The thing is, they are not better. They are cheaper in the short run but bad for companies in the longer term. The problem is that the people making these decisions are insulated from the impact of them, so naturally the people who actually pay the cost of short term thinking take it upon themselves to try to do something about it.
Scott Corley, you are obsolete. Please report to the extermination center (my house) so you can be disposed of.
You can start, if you want.
from a nytimes op-ed:
Compete America, a coalition of technology companies, is pleading with Congress to boost both the number of H-1B visas available to companies that want to bring in skilled foreign workers and the number of employment-based green cards given to high-tech foreign workers who want to stay here.
"The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward."
This is utter crap. I'm in my 40s and I work at a "hot" hi-tech company where the median age is like 25. I interview a lot of job candidates. These fresh-out-of-top-masters-programs kids have the same trouble solving the programming questions as we did 20 years ago. They get hired because they're smart and can learn, not because they know "new technologies".
'The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward.'
Not really. Mostly it's the same shit, different day.
Scott Corley is rather naive. Most of the offshore we onboard somehow learn on our bill. Padded resumes, fake interviews, imposters, and the such.
I have retrained myself a number of times - even paid thousands of dollars of my own money for it.
The question: How do you get around the requirement for 'on the job' experience of your new skills?
All of my re-training was worthless because I didn't have any paid experience in those skills. I volunteer and that is not good enough either. It has to be paid experience and at least two years of it - from the feedback I am getting.
A great example was back in the late 90s, I had an intensive Java class and I interviewed with Accenture ('Anderson Consulting' back then). The manager was great, actually. He complemented me on the fact that I was the ONLY one who wore a suit to the interview but he needed more Java experience - as relayed to the recruiter and then to me.
Say what you will about Accenture, that the nicest and respectful interviews I have ever had in my tech career of 20 years - that looks like it is over.
I have recent examples but it involves the disparagement and abuse of myself by interviewers - not by Accenture because I have never had an interview from them since the late 90s.
The things I go through to get a job.
I would get a job as a burger flipper, but it is hard to even get an interview in that these days. I was a line cook when I worked my way though college, but my local restaurants demand 5 years of RECENT experience (i..e. Unemployed need not apply) for those jobs - McD's wants BiLingual people in my area so I am learning Spanish now.
I would be happy with a $8/ hour job - burgers or pulling RJ45 through walls, whatever, but it's not happening.
And I have $48,000 in student loans from my last attempt of getting more retraining from GA State (GSU) - yeah, MBA (so what?!) - tech is obviously out of my reach now as a middle aged old fart.
It should also be noted tat these workers are an excellent example of how poorly "free market" implementations do when they collide with other forces. Foreign workers are cheap for non-economic reasons, employers hold their immigration status over their head, they can squeeze lower wages out of them due to the ever present threat of having to leave the country. Citizens are harder to threaten so you have to pay them closer to what they are worth.
There is also the classic game theory problem here that every industry wants OTHER industries to have well paid domestic workers since those are its customers.
Well, that's what I assume. Because according to his own theory, that's when he was at his best, and it went downhill from then on. After five years, Scott Corley is a bumbling idiot, after ten years an imbecile.
Companies collude illegally to limit wage competition and when that was discovered they started to pay lobbyists to work on H-1B reforms instead. If they want to lower their wage costs let them burn more billions into overseas outsourcing.
It should also be noted tat these workers are an excellent example of how poorly "free market" implementations do when they collide with other forces. Foreign workers are cheap for non-economic reasons, employers hold their immigration status over their head, they can squeeze lower wages out of them due to the ever present threat of having to leave the country. Citizens are harder to threaten so you have to pay them closer to what they are worth.
Which is why H1-B's should come with visa portability. After say, 3 months, they can change employers and keep their visas. That would show if they truly are paid "US market wages" and just how important they are to address a "shortage of US workers with the requisite skills."
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
...accountants, engineers, and all the other professionals who must stay current in their training.
Retaining knowledge of both software and business requirements is the 4th of Lehman's Laws of Software Development, Conservation of Familiarity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
And that law is from 1978. Such knowledge isn't even as recent as the 1980s (a lesson approaching 40 years in age, I was five at the time...), it should be basic guidance at this point in time.
Anyone that doesn't realize how important knowledge of the business and operations are is one that should be ignored completely.
Advice: Always seek to learn as much as possible about the business and how it operates/interacts with the external world. This is the secret to NOT being disposable. It's also a great way to meets VP and C-Level executives.
BlameBillCosby.com
The H1B visa holders have less experience and require equal or more training than the old workers. They just do the job at $50K instead of $75K.
And that's the REAL reason the companies like them.
Eventually, tech workers are going to have to demand pay like sports stars, and for the same reason: you only get an extremely abbreviated career, in your youth, that lasts maybe ten years, and by the time you hit your mid 30s, you're done. During that time, you need to make enough money to last the rest of your life. The only difference is that a tech worker doesn't face the risk of a work-related, career-ending injury in the same way that a pro athlete does.
If your employer trains you in some hot new technology, he won't ever be able to recoup the expense from you: if he keeps your salary low to pay for it, you'll leave for some place with a higher salary right away, and if he raises your salary to what you're worth after training, he won't recoup the expense of training. Either way, the employer is screwed.
Given that employees have the right to quit whenever they want to, the only thing that makes sense is that employees take responsibility for their own training and keeping their skills up to date.
What a douche. /ignore
but if foreign CEOs can do the work better, then surely we should be flooding the market with replacement CEOs who can maximise shareholder value way better than the old, stuck-in-the-mud, golden-handshake-even-if-they-screw-up CEOs who have done very little to deal with the changing world of technology and business and much to feather their own nests.
Surely....
It's great for the bottom line but not so good for the society.
The reasonings that are given mean nothing.
The only reason they want H1B worker is financial benefit. All the rest is spin.
Please don't take this as H1B's are cheaper or inferior -- that argument is a distraction.
The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward
The thing is, if you got a quality education, or even a sub-par one but made up for it with natural talent, you never "get away from your education" because technology, like other science, just builds on existing technology. The core of it doesn't change.
Obviously as it becomes more complicated, it requires more specialization, so there is a chance your chosen specialization may get pruned off the technology tree, but again that only means you have to go back to the last branch that goes to something active.
Furthermore, once you're done with school, you start your next round of schooling: conferences, documentation, "nothing we have now will do it right so lets find a new way." It is the very basis of every creative mind out there.
This is about money. More of it in his pocket at any expense to others. Pure and simple.
I've worked at companies where they used temp workers like Kleenix; blow your nose in it once and throw away. Their in-house software is noticeably harder to maintain and lower quality than the rest of the industry. And that's saying a lot since the rest of the industry is shit. No one there knows anything about the company, its business process or anything in-depth about the software. If all you care about is making shit products for people who don't know any better and who probably won't sue you very often if your shit products suck, I guess that's a decent business practice. At least until a company that takes the smallest amount of pride in its work comes along and runs you out of business.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I have retrained myself a number of times - even paid thousands of dollars of my own money for it.
The question: How do you get around the requirement for 'on the job' experience of your new skills?
All of my re-training was worthless because I didn't have any paid experience in those skills. I volunteer and that is not good enough either. It has to be paid experience and at least two years of it - from the feedback I am getting.
Take a bridge job, where some fraction of your time can be dedicated to applying those new skills. Presto: two years experience on your resume.
Sometimes a lateral move is not actually lateral, if it gets you resume-fodder that you believe you're going to need to advance your career.
We can't learn new technologies when your whole day is spent working on OLD technologies.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
'The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward.'"
I guess that assumes that
1) We, as techworkers, don't learn from our experience.
2) That there is no carry over of concepts from one tech to another.
3) That the technology changes so much that we cannot or do not learn new stuff constantly in the process of working and learning.
4) The technology is the sole thing. There are businesses to be understood and adequately communicated and documented. There is misinterpretation between two engineers who speak the same language, so of course there will be misinterpretation amongst different cultures and standards.
I think there have been plenty of times where I really did things right was after I did them wrong the first time. Other times, one must know a lot to be productive. Yes, we can write 100K lines of code, but if we don't understand how it all interrelates to other components, most of that is not used.
5) That foreigners want to work as slaves for their American masters. I bet within the next decade, we will lose our ability to do any technology here because we will have lost the number of experienced workers to do the design and architecture. I welcome that because it is the only way that the elite will see that tech just doesn't happen overnight. A society that looses its competitive edge will not get it back easily. Look at Germany after WWII. Prior to WW1, Germany was the scientific and intellectual powerhouse in the world. look at the number of Nobel Prizes in physics and chemistry. Since the end of WWII, most intellectuals left to contribute elsewhere. After WWII, there has been a massive brain drain on its economy at a time when Germany needed to rebuild its cities and infrastructure. Another point in fact is that many German rocket scientists went back in the 1970's.
Very soon, you will have major businesses spring up in India and China run by people who repatrioted after learning here. If you ever talk to your Indian counterparts, you will learn that many of them intend to return after their 7 year visa runs out. They know that they are not wanted here, so this will happen from a variety of factors.
make min wage $20 hr so that worker can live on that mcjob they get after being pushed out of tech.
To me, the whole concept of the former "personnel" department becoming "human resources" is a reflection of the mindset that real people with real desires to advance, and real desires to keep up with technical changes and advances, and real desires to feel like we're really contributing to the success of our company are, well, passe. In that mindset, we're all just "resources" that can fit onto a spreadsheet or HR template. A true story from my days at Dialogic - a company that made telecom gear. After finally getting management buy-in to release a Linux version, I was in a meeting with engineering management and they started wondering about getting the "resources" to do the driver and porting work. I suggested looking at working to get some input from some experienced open-source driver maintainers on a contract basis to get some of our existing Solaris versions ported. They laughed and said "Oh, we can't do that! We'll just pull some resources from our Windows team and they'll be fine." Ha! For some reason, they just couldn't grasp the concept that there was experience, knowledge and - ultimately - passion for what you are doing that translates into real achievement.
>> H-1B guest workers are a much better choice. 'It's not easy to retrain people,' Corley said. '
In my experience most H1B guest workers are exactly the ones who need the most training, even just in order to properly perform the job they are already coming in for. Learning valuable skills appears to be exactly the reason many come to the US in the first place.
There is no lack of IT workers in the US, just a lack of IT workers who will work for minimum wage. The only reason companies claim they need more H1Bs is because H1B workers will work for cheap.
to know how transferable this view is. Does it apply to lobbyists too?
You never know...
The thing is, they are not better. They are cheaper in the short run but bad for companies in the longer term. The problem is that the people making these decisions are insulated from the impact of them, so naturally the people who actually pay the cost of short term thinking take it upon themselves to try to do something about it.
So we're the Moties and they're the 'knack'less equivalent of Brownies!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mote_in_God%27s_Eye
Retraining doesn't make sense because domain knowledge is worthless.
So lets start by firing executives because we know how worthless their domain knowledge is, they've said so themselves!
Instead of whining about the impracticality of retraining "old" tech people, why not help them keep their skills up to date while they are working?
The whole "retraining" attitude is BS.
YES, it's cheaper to get an already trained worker than it is to retrain an existing one! You'd have to be stupid to think that a company is going to run a training program itself, rather than contributing towards continuing education. It's about as stupid as believing that there will be a training program at your company that will make you magically competent in a way that your newly minted college degree was not able to. If they don't even have a training program in the first place, what makes you think they are going to start a *re*training program just so they can keep a high salary worker on the payroll while they come up to speed on something that a new college graduate (or someone who took advantage of the continuing education assistance program) is *already* up to speed on?
Practically speaking, every tech company I have ever worked at, including those with fewer than 50 engineers, is willing to pay for continuing education for all their workers. If you don't take advantage of the opportunity, that's on you.
So if you take advantage of ongoing training, great for you. If you don't, don't expect a voucher for retraining in the envelope containing your pink slip: you've already screwed the pooch by not keeping up to date.
Older workers look at this "new" idea and say, "Didn't we try that 5 years ago? and 5 years before that? It didn't work either of those times either.
I think you may have hit on one of the big problems (besides money because this is really about money and having more of it for executive bonuses).
If you're an idiot executive and you have a stupid idea, somebody who actually has experience or who may have tried whatever and had it not work is likely to tell you that and tell you why. Now, in a logical world that might make the executive rethink the idea or try to figure out ways to avoid the previous mistake and our IT worker would be a hero. In today's modern corporate America, the tech worker will be labeled "not a team player" and gotten rid of at the first available opportunity.
Meanwhile, the executive will appreciate having a younger tech worker around who doesn't know enough to call a dumb idea a dumb idea and who will go off and try to implement whatever it is. The results are usually both predictable and predicted.
Long term you're training your foreign competition. But at least the Cs get a nice bonus this quarter!
We would much rather pay the cost of having younger workers make the mistakes the older workers learned to avoid.
Older workers avoid repeating mistakes -- true... as far as it goes.
I don't think this is an issue when the product your company is building is a social networking web site that you plan on rewriting every couple of weeks anyway in an "iterative process" of getting to the point where Facebook will buy you out. If the old code doesn't work very well, fire the programmers that wrote it, get new bodies in to write the next version, and be done with it. For the parts that actually do work, well, don't fire those guys, unless the parts work well enough that you don't need any more work done on them: "good enough" is the enemy of "better" -- and they can't be thrown over on some other code you need worked on.
If you are working on disposable code, then you're a disposable worker, period. If someone uses the magic work "iterate" in your job interview, take that as a strong clue that you will be working on disposable code.
.... I'm confused as to how this is liberalism???
If foreign workers can do the work better, cheaper, etc then we should be flooding the market with H1-B's. It's the free market principle at work - trying to artificially inflate the value of tech jobs by limiting competition is a fool's errand that will ultimately not work. We live and work in a global economy now, and trying to fight it goes against all the free market principles that this country was founded on and made us great a hundred years ago.
If foreign workers can do the job better and cheaper, and we actually do live and work in a global economy...
Why does 95+% of the world's high-quality commercial software come out of the US?
I don't know how to build a mud hut. I grew up in a place that not only didn't require that of me, but actively discouraged it ("What the HELL did you do to the lawn this time???"). I do, however, know computers like my life depended on it, because realistically, I do make my living knowing them. I grew up in an era when the PC counted as a cool new thing, and transitioned into a workforce that considered my background extremely valuable.
If you want a programmer - You want me, at any price. If you want a mud hut, you'd do well to pass me over. The same applies in reverse.
No they shouldn't. An H1-B is only to be used to fill a very specific gap where someone in already the country for other reasons (citizen, green card etc) could not be found. If the H1-B is free to move around at will, it goes against the spirit of why they are allowed in in the first place. This would be a slap in the face to the people already here. Although I think the way H1-B's are used now is already a slap in the face.
If minimum wage is $20, then $20 an hour will buy you the same quality of life that $7.25 an hour does now.
de jure minimum wage is an illusion of anything getting done.
...just remember this is how it works.
The lack of trained IT personnel is because companies simply don't want to train the employees.
Now if we could keep finding new doctors where each new doctor does the job for 25% less then the old one until the cost is 25% of what it originally cost... hmmm. Then we'd have doctors that suck as bad as new code and outsourced tech support.
Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
He's kind of half-right, and the part he's right about is why I left the IT industry entirely. I just couldn't keep up, the skills churn was just too much and I couldn't devote enough time to learning the constant parade of new buzzwords just to continue to be able to do my job, while also having to do my job.
I knew quite a few people who were in various IT careers a few years ago, but have universally washed out and are now technical managers or in entirely different industries. The few who did stick around managed to do so because IT was both their career and hobby, and so they had home labs that were always running the latest-and-greatest of anything. Windows 8 was the straw that broke the camel's back, and I quit. Now I'm a technical manager too.
The industry moves too quickly, and requires a level of continuous retraining that's unlike anything else in existence. I'm not at all surprised it's better - for many reasons - to hire a new temp or employee than it is to retrain someone.
of b0llsh1t...
PLEASE, define technology worker with more precision and accuracy, and look up the defnitions of those terms before you blather. ... [expletive deleted] ... [must NOT identify my cell or its members].
I hate to let the cat out of the bag, but the vast majority of people with Electrical Engineering degrees do NOTHING related to electricity in any way, shape, manner, or form.
I know, I am one. The vast majority of my "work" is forcing the paperless office printed forms through administrative and bureaucratic drones to justify THEIR existence. I do NOT re-design systems to improve them and upgrade equipment for more efficient operations and maintenance, I buy the cheapest in parts and labor replacements for broken things only to replace them when they break.
The companies I have worked for through three decades are run by authoritarian technolgically inept bullies born with silver spoons in their mouths who can not undock the notebook computers they demanded because they must be connected 24*7.
I do not require retraining, I require the ability to
The meek shall inherit the soil to farm it - the strong shall rule over the meek by beating them with the rocks removed from the soil to farm it - the rest of us are going to the starts because we figured out that the secret is to bang the rocks toghether. DAMN, why is it taking so long to get off of this [expletive deleted] rock?
The real solution is we admit this experiment in "free trade" is the root cause of the wealth gap. Making the world smaller isn't really such a good thing. I say lets dump the income tax, lets dump NAFTA, shutter the WTO and go back to funding government with import tariffs.
Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
And if they aren't free to move around, then they aren't being paid a competitive wage. They are being paid a slave wage, even if $150,000. They will be a criminal if they don't work for that wage while in the US. The current H1-B system goes against the spirit of why they are allowed in in the first place. They are here to be paid a market wage for a skill gap that can't be filled by an American. But, in practice, they are used to avoid hiring Americans who demand more money.
Learn to love Alaska
Every time a company treats me as disposable, I treat them as disposable. Quid pro quo, Clarice. Oh jeez I wonder why Microsoft is failing and Linux is exploding... I wonder why Adobe is going to hell... I can't wait to see Google go down in the near future as well.
"The further you get away from your education the less knowledge you have of the new technologies, and technology is always moving forward."
Does he have ANY understanding of how IT is done?
What fresh out of college or tech support graduate has even a fraction of a fraction of the knowledge of how IT systems and networks are built, operated and managed? The implication that COLLEGES are teaching cutting-edge methods far ahead of where a technically skilled IT department is is utterly absurd.
The fact is an experienced Sr. SA, Network Engineer, DevOps guy, etc. etc. with 5-15+ years under his belt will know where the technologies are going and is probably veering that direction himself.
Continuous education, training, and re-training is as much a part of a skilled IT engineer's career as it is a neurosurgeon's. As someone who has been in this business almost 20 years if you're not CONTINUALLY learning and applying new knowledge and staying on top of where things are going you will get left behind very very quickly.
On one hand, it is normal business practice to maximize profits, though not necessarily for the benefit of the share holders. On the other hand, it is normal for the working class to sell their skill, ingenuity and labor in exchange for money (profit). Furthermore companies expect some amount of loyalty from the employees, valuing it only for so long as it benefits the company. The company on the other hand is under no obligation to have any loyalty to the employee.
This is a workable system so long as the required skill set changes slowly enough for employees to adapt and sustain themselves. This is still the case in certain industries like construction, home remodeling, etc. But in technology, new skill requirements pop up as fast as they can be invented and job experience greater than 3 years is irrelevant.
With the development of advanced IT management systems, as well as the outsourcing to lower paid foreign workers, American workers and their jobs are being eliminated. This is to be expected because it is normal to think that companies are always going to be trying to lower their expenses. The problem here is that this is creating an imbalance between the demand and supply of skils and labor.
The reason this is a problem is that it is eroding the middle class and it is middle class demand that is the source of economic activity. The reason 3rd World countries have stagnant economies and a lack of economic opportunity is there is no middle class and no middle class demand. Without a middle class and the money it has to spend, there's nobody to sell goods and services to. Sadly this is the direction that America is inexorably headed.
Today middle class jobs are being eliminated by outsourcing and advancing knowledge systems. We're not that far away from AI systems that will much, much further erode middle class jobs. It won't just be IT workers that will get it. it will be bankers, lawyers, workers in the insurance industry, etc.
IBM's Watson is now being used to invent new cuisines and is doing a pretty good job of it.
The demand for human labor and ingenuity is quickly being phased out as technology advances along with the issues of globalization. Therefore the fundamental premise that people can provide for themselves through the exchange of skill, ingenuity and labor is quickly being made obsolete, and this will fundamentally break our economic system. Futurists of the past would speculate that our society would become so rich that humans would only work because they wanted to and that we would have almost unlimited wealth and leisure time. But that isn't the way it's going is it? When there no longer is enough work to be had, there will a permanent underclass of poor in America, just as it is normal in the 3rd World.
I was an MVS sys prog who saw the change coming in the 90s, totally retrained myself at the age of 45 to be a Windows and LAN sysadmin plus knowledge of how to system integrate the old world and the new, apparently was an excellent sysadmin and network guy and got paid top dollar. I then moved on learning all about the Internet etc still keeping myself up to date. Scott Corely may be correct its hard to teach old dogs new tricks but if they really want to do it they can, and so at least give them a chance.
For the company, he argued, H-1B guest workers are a much better choice. 'It's not easy to retrain people,' Corley said.
No doubt this is true - hiring cheap indentured laborers without rights is more profitable. Which is why they must be denied that option.
Corporations would employ sweat shops with child labor here*, if we let them. But we don't because while it would be profitable for the sweatshop operator, it would be bad for everybody else.
If the choice is retraining workers, and not having the workers they need, they will most definitely stop throwing away their workforce.
*Yes, I know they do that overseas.
Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
Easy... Don't contribute to agism. Just because someone is young doesn't make them shallow, impatient, etc. Same deal with older people.
What this boils down to is people flexing political and HR powers without knowing what it takes to be responsible leaders of IT workers. We all know the type: the douche bags who go the temp route and only hold on to people long enough to get their shiny new toys. I can't stand these types and in a majority of situations, the places that are ran by these types rarely get far. Rather, they normally collapse. But it's the marginalized few who do succeed with these tactics that set the molds for their roadies. After that, it's a rinse-and-repeat cycle that's very vicious and creates a nightmarish reputation for the IT markets, especially when it involves web design / development--there's so many of those types in that field that it's disgusting.
If foreign workers can do the work better, cheaper, etc then why couldn't they do better for themselves in their native country?
whom do you expect to have funds to BUY your product, if all businesses are so focused upon destroying worker wages?
I was outsourced. Anyone that thinks that my 30 years of experience can be replaced by a new college grad that is so knowledgeable that I have to train them to do my job is already in conflict with their own argument. If the new college grad is so superior, why do I have to train them? When asked to train the H-1B to do my job I will quit. H-1B means there are no Americans that can do the job, so the company has to bring in foreign workers. Is the fallacy being seen here?
New college grads?
Well by your arguments, you should have been replaced and made unemployable by the time you could make such a statement. Enjoy your post college career in the fast food market. Your degree was only valid until the next graduating class came out by your standards. The four years you spent your parents money to get that degree has an expiration date of one year, as the class of graduates make you obsolete. Welcome to the bottom line, by your own definition.
I wish you luck, and yes I would like fry's with that.
They're required to be paid the going rate for the job. The problem is that the program doesn't check to see if the company is legitimately unable to find somebody to do the job before allowing them to hire through the program.
Putting a 20-30% premium above and beyond the going rate for the job would probably cut down quite a bit on the abuses. Basically because they would always be more costly than the going rate, it would be a lot harder for companies to use these people to drive down the wages for everybody else, regardless of whether or not they could fill the position.
Back in the day, you'd start as a coder, learn architecture on the job, and gradually move up to programmer/analyst, etc.
These days, though, the "coding" part is essentially a clerical skill, much like taking shorthand or dictation and turning it into a report or memo was in the 50s and 60s. Or, in a more technology centric area, draftsmen, particularly detail filler inners. There's a different path to the higher tiers, and it is more "business-centric" than technology centric. You don't need 100 skilled architects and algorithm people. You need 10 of them, to provide a template that you can feed out to your "coder pool" just like you designed a paper form for some business process that everyone then used, or defined a standard drawing process.
To be successful in today's business (where success is defined as moving up), you need to be able to speak business and that means MBA school, self training, actual business experience, or maybe even an undergrad business degree. You need to know what a T account is (even if you never will use one) and what resource leveling is and all that PHB stuff.
Or, you can try for one of the very few "enterprise architect" type roles, but hey, those guys and gals know business too, along with their deep IT knowledge.
The sort of middle tier software developer is going to go the same was as the head draftsman, the lead of the typing pool, or a variety of supervisory middle managers who came up through the ranks.
"Neo-Liberalism" != Liberalism. Go figure. Liberalism generally means progressive socialism. "Neo-Liberalism" is really just the old "Libertarian" crap Rand Paul and his ilk spew. Basically you're free to do whatever unless you want to eat, or have a house, or health care. "Neo-Liberals" cheerfully ignore the power of money when they calculate freedom. That's more or less what (I think) the grandparent's post is getting at. .
The word's been co-opted by the Libertarian types.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
they're better in the long run in every way. First, they work harder because they're desperate. Yes, they make mistakes, but they'll work 80 hours correcting those mistakes. Second, they lower the overall cost of labor (by increasing the supply of labor).
See, you're thinking like a worker. Start thinking like an _owner_. Like someone who does nothing all day except _own_ stuff, and it'll make more sense. The owners aren't paying attention to how much wealth is created. They're just interested in how much of it is theirs. After a certain amount of money it stops being money and starts being power. When you lose, they gain.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
the replacements are under heavy duress. They quality will drop for a little bit, but they'll work 80 hours a week to catch up since the alternative is abject poverty and starvation. If the first batch doesn't do it the next one will.
:P.
Also, I think you underestimate the cost savings. I can get a programmer in India for $1200 a month tops (that's everything, benefits, taxes, computer. _everything_). The cheapest American is 10 times that. Are you really 10 times more productive? If you are, you should be working for google
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Some of us "wingnuts" wanted to slow down the immigration flood, you know ... but we must just be racists. Yeah, that's it.
That'd be "E" for "Evil"...
The H1-E visa would be used to bring in cheap lobbyists and corporate CEOs from outside the U.S.
I'd bet we can get CEOs and Lobbyists from India and China for even less money than the high-tech workers... after all, there's NO skill required beyond flapping your lips while exhaling. If the program proves to be successful (which is nearly guaranteed) then we can use the same visa program to import politicians, lawyers and judges, who similarly lack, not only any usable skills, but also any accountability standards and/or objective value. Hell, now that things like Skype exist, we do not really even need visas for this, we could just teleconference with the judges, politicians, lawyers, CEOs and lobbyists who could stay in their home countries (where money goes further) thus making the whole scheme even cheaper (hooray!)
Sure, it's all very absurd, but as long as these dirtbags think this is the perfect way to deal with American STEM workers while they themselves feel free from the threat of replacement by cheap foreign labor, this will continue.... and No, unions are NOT a way to deal with the problem (unions in America are almost unanimously allied with the Democrat political party which count lawyers among their most important constituents and wall st bankers as their most important funders)
all workers including management are disposable. It take time to learn the business of your business. And to implement a successful system you need to understand how the system will interact with your business and with all of the other systems that are currently in use. To be brutally honest most temporary programmers are useless. They are just a waste of time.
but not until then
With respect that's just as stupid an idea now as it was in 1200.
They are here to be paid a market wage for a skill gap that can't be filled by an American.
I want to know, exactly what skill gap supposedly exists that they're supposed to be filling? If you can't find someone with the experience and/or desire to do a job in a country of ~314 million god damned people, how do you expect to find it in a pool of something like 30k or whatever the HB-1 program is capped at?
30k isn't the pool, dumbass.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I encounter this thinking all the time. That programmer's knowledge set is somehow locked in place at college graduation. Well, lots of the technology out there I helped invent. Some of it I have patented in my name. I still am discriminated against. At over 50 they make an assumption if I was any good I'd be in management. Well, I love tech, I love programming, so my rates have dropped 20-25 percent since the early nineties. But I still earn more than most middle managers that wouldn't consider me a direct hire. How they ask, do I get that rate? I get it by fixing the outsourced mess that happens when management has no clue and just looks at the bottom line of the next quarter. I generate there quarter exception payouts. But when I leave, do learn anything. No, they just do the same thing again, and again, and again. I get a lot of repet business and have outlasted many a middle manager... I have even had companies that didn't know where their source code was stored. In some cases their source code had copyright notices from other companies, because their out source partner liberally reused the code they already wrote without regard to who owns the IP as work for hire. I helped them sort it out, and switch from my contract Dev rate to IP pre-discovery legal rate for a nice bit of chnge. ...
So just keep outsourcing. I'll be around to fix the mess, if you get one. Some are good mind you, others not so much. And when you find yourself in court hope I'm the guy analyzing the code for you, not your competitor. There is a reason why you want stronger control over your IP
Can you imagine how fast the entire H1-B program would be shut down if it suddenly imported cheap upper managers in droves?
I'd love to see how corporate America would try to spin that one. "H1-B was letting the commies win, we should keep the power here in 'Murica!"
New management want to re-invent the wheel. They reckon there's a better way to do it.
If they last long enough they will refine and change their management strategies until
they start looking like their older forbears well tested methods.
Unless they get displaced by the new generation of f___ing know it alls.
It's not just IT.
At a recent induction to a global construction corporation we were all told for increased
safety we all had to have 2 reflective stripes on our pants or we wouldn't get on site.
Remember Dr Seus - The Star Belly Sneeches.
The only thing wrong with Australian workers is f___ing management.
Go well
Tech workers will endlessly bitch and moan about how unfair all of this is. As if that all that griping would actually change anything.
If you want to change anything, you need to organize, raise money, and lobby.
Like it or not, that is how the government works: money talks, and bullshit walks. And complaining, without campaign contributions, is just bullshit.
Doctors, lawyers, and others learned to organize, and protect their careers. Tech workers do just the opposite. Tech workers stab each other in the back so they will be the last ones fired.
Funny thing is: the visa workers are also victims of all this.
Techies are smart in some ways, but not very smart in others.
Why not doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, scientists, teachers, etc?
Laws, accounting practices, medical practices, etc. change all the time.
In most professions, you get more valuable as you gain experience. Why do people think it's the opposite in tech?
Why does 95+% of the world's high-quality commercial software come out of the US?
This is a good point. I always laugh that people are so naive to think that outsourcing is a good idea.
If 3rd world countries could build great software they would be first world countries, yet...they aren't.
Silicon Valley is not in India or China or BFE.... That doesn't mean that there aren't talented people from those countries in Silicon Valley..Yet they are in Silicon Valley... My opinion is that outsourcing is mostly a scam, I would never do it in my company.
in my field - (network operations/engineering) - my skillset has to essentially rotate out every few years - a CCIE told me if we weren't learning whole new skillsets, we were obsolete in 5 years -
having said that, being in a huge company with a complicated network gives one a bit of security from knowledge of where things work, but several old timers I knew grinding till retirement let their skills go - and as the legacy technology went out, they became less and less useful till they were basically 1st level techs
RB
----------
ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
1) kill your replacement
2) kill your boss
3) light the building on fire
most problems in America can be solved by killing the right people
There are many companies and industries that do not have a good reputation among workers for taking care of older or burned out employees. Unless it is a time of very limited job openings it means that younger workers will demand far higher starting wages and better raises to stay with a company. If a potential employee is not smart enough to insist upon fair pay and some very real assurance of doing well then you really do not want to hire him anyway. The old, vague promises of yesteryear will no longer work. One tactic an employee can use is to start a new job by casually asking how many people around him in the business are long time employees. If there are too many fairly new workers it may be time to leave before you even start.
So if the average graduate at age 22, spent 4 years learning the latest and greatest and is obsolete at age 40,
that makes his degree good for 18 years. Couldn't that same person at age 40 go back to school for 4 years,
graduate at age 44 and be good for another 18 years which would get him all the way to age 62 and ready to
retire.
Actually, it depends on where the $20 comes from. I hate to say it, but if it is "redistributed" then no the economy will not inflate.
I laugh at inappropriate times.
Seriously. They cost a ton of money that our all-important stockholders should not be putting up with. I bet if you look at the growth rates of Indian outsourcing companies, it dwarfs US based ones, so let's hire them for the Cxx jobs. They sure could not do much worse than the ones we have now.
No. Refusing to do a task is insubordination and grounds for termination.
See http://www.edd.ca.gov/UIBDG/Ab...
If you have an ethical or philosophical objection to training a replacement on the basis of the company terminating you afterward in order to save money, and they have no other reason (which they could not, given they feel you are qualified to train), then you can refuse, and if terminated for refusal, claim benefits.
Yes, compete America.
It makes no sense to educate Americans when we can import cheap labor to do the heavy lifting. Since technology is always moving, code quality is really just a matter of opinion. All problems can be solved by simply packing more, cheaper workers into the department. Just look at the stellar track records of the TSA and Wal*Mart. And we can all agree on the trajectory of the IT worker, which is to carry with them throughout their career only what they learned in college.
people like him often don't even stay at a company for five years...they come in, fire all the real workers, bring H1-B's in, drive up stock prices, then bail before the whole thing collapses.
They don't care about their institutions. They only care about next quarter's performance, so they can trade in their stock options.
More worrisome is our recruitment of workers from the same area we're "fighting terrorists" in. When I was at ATnT, we had a "scandal" were some contractors in Malaysia were funneling money to Al Queda, the FBI was involved and such. It's awesome to have a contractor from some place who is contracted to some Indian company, who is then contracted to IBM, who is then contracted to National Grid, who runs the power system in a large chunk of the northeast US. They don't need to hack anything, we just handed them a laptop with VPN access into various production servers. I wouldn't be surprised if right now there is some sleeper code on various systems no one realizes is there, because there are too many vendors to watch everything. NG has 20+ domain controller clusters in the US alone...someone could darken 1/4 of the US just by kidnapping a developer over there and forcing their password / VPN PIN out of them (if it's not written on a post-it stuck inside the laptop).
Please form a circle and commence mutual backpatting in 3... 2...
The reason you don't often see excellent software from outside of US is not due to lack of talent but lack of exposure. A lot of things that come from Silicon Valley have been already thought up somewhere else and you'll probably never hear about them
Make IT work a Guild. Make much of it secret. Do not reveal to or instruct non-Guild members. Companies that oppose it get their information infrastructure hit with the Mother of All Ban Hammers. The cure will of course have all manner of long term drawbacks that reach far beyond the immediate problem, but what the Hell.
Multitasking: Just Say No
Are Foreign Guest Workers Preferable to Retraining?
No, since their existence is to undermine citizens with a supplicant labor pool. To agree with their existence is un-American in the most possible way.
The only way to fix it is to rip out every single immigration law down to pre-1965 statutes and regulations. Then "handle" the lobbyists that defend a practice that has invited fraud and abuse for as long as it ever existed.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The guest workers can be paid whatever wage, but their lower level of freedom makes them desirable to businesses.
That, and some companies will link severance to non-disclosure of the offshoring/guest worker programs.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
make the executive rethink the idea or try to figure out ways to avoid the previous mistake
Precisely. This is the flip side of the equation. Often older workers forget that there might have been a simple, single reason why their previous effort failed. A reason that perhaps we can avoid or has been done away with advances in technology.
As a manager I always appreciated a comment such as "last time the difficulties in that approach were A, B and C" over the comment "impossible, we tried it it didn't work". The former allows the team (we always discuss things such as these as a group) to evaluate if we want to call the whole thing off or if we can forestall those issues somehow and its worth a second attempt at grabbing the ring.
It is cheaper to host the company abroad than import executives to run a company that is mostly on the other side of the planet.
Because good people are hard to find and great people are rare as hen's teeth.
"Aw, screw it we'll hire a bunch of new h1bs" is the thinking of someone who's accepted mediocrity as his standard. And it makes sense to encourage others to adopt that attitude too.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I submit that using "cunt" as an insult proves you're an asshole.
So it's okay with Slashdot to use "cunt" as an insult, but not to call the person who does it an asshole?
There are two ways out of this problem of the race to the bottom against immigrants.
First, techies form a union like the doctors and lawyers, and lobby for legal protection to preseve their middle class status.
Second, they embrace immigration but lobby to apply it to everything, not just techie jobs. This will bring down their own wages but also bring down everyone elses (including the doctors and lawyers, as well as gardeners and barbers) so that the techies are not worse off (and in theory everyone should be better off.)
We are starting to see a world split into three very sticky classes of people: the rich who live off their capital; the global poor who race to the bottom against each other regardless of their nationality; and a small middle class that has managed to protect itself from the market through its unions.
Doing nothing is no longer an option, we have to pick one of these two sides and go with it -- other we are going to get squished.
shh. you'll be telling those executives that do this that their jobs are safe while they destroy yours. That's not the idea behind my post.
I do wonder what the market would be like if only foreign H1B workers were allowed to be corporate officers in America. Of course, fat chance.
This idiot has forgotten loyalty is a two way street working in a company a person picks up a lot on different aspects of the bussiness he is working in a lot of it proprietary and if you think they will not use it when they move to another company he is sadly mistaken.It is in a company's long term interest to get their workers to train themselves with incentives .You can bring up that it would be a breach of contract ,but treat people like fecal matter to be flushed when finished you better think twice
Since you can't change employers under an H-1B, it's not a free market. Which is why the employers love them. It's not a lack of talent that they're trying to fill; it's a lack of CHEAP talent.
Claiming workers lose skills shows this character thinks schools teach them and that subsequent learning is useless. If he's dumb enough to hire people that won't learn that will happen. Maybe it does with H1Bs he hires. He should hire more wisely and look for folks who can and do learn. I suppose too that if you are also dumb enough to run a shop where you allow nobody time enough to read a bit about their problems so they can learn somewhat, this can happen. The old saying that you can save a day in the library with two weeks in the lab comes to mind. However the remarks tends to calibrate its maker (exec director or not!) as a poor manager who is harming whatever he is trying to manage.
When you rob a bank, you do not have the consent of the bank or its patrons.
When you hire someone, you first get their consent on the terms under which the arrangement may be terminated. So, your eventual release of them is something to which they consented at the beginning, under no duress, as they are free to instead go get a union job.
Further, when you release someone from your service, you are not taking money away from them. In fact, you are simply ceasing to continue giving more of your money to them, and you are ceasing to demand service from them. This act is not analogous to theft in any way.
Your misrepresentation of the situation is deliberately deceptive. Your argument is not just wrong, it is dishonest. You probably already know that, though, since you are obviously trolling.
I always read complaints about the "disposable tech worker" but never the "disposable tech company". There's almost no company loyalty these days. Which is fine, since obviously there's not a lot of loyalty to employees either. That's the world we live in. But it cuts both ways. My company might lay me off rather than retrain me. Okay. But I might leave my company for another job if it happens to involve some cool new technology I want to learn. Or if they have beer in the break room. Or if they pay me a couple thousand more a year. Or if my manager looks at me funny one day. And, in doing so, I could totally leave my employer in the lurch in a way they, to be honest, can't do to me. If a tech worker has marketable skills (which is not true of every tech worker) then he's really in the driver's seat. Laid off? No problem; he can get another job inside two weeks. If he's an integral part of his current employer's team, though, then the potential for him to damage their bottom line by leaving suddenly is much bigger.
If they have no alternatives they are idiots and deserve unemployment.
so Neo-Nazism is not Nazism? Who'd a thunk it!
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
... I've learned a few things. 1. Technology is continually changing. 2. It is up to me to be continually learning; no one else can, or will, do it for me. 3. The underlying principles and concepts remain the same, so someone with a good grasp of them will be useful IF THEY WANT TO BE USEFUL. 4. The best employers try to help employees keep up to date (but DO NOT RELY ON YOUR EMPLOYER FOR THIS).
linquendum tondere
Did anyone catch the news that Target's detection systems worked perfectly, but no one in their US headquarters ever responded? Because they're in the middle of firing everyone. I checked, and Target is having a bloodbath right now. The breach happened because no one was available to do anything about it.
Don't worry. I'm sure i can train a recent college graduate to do my job in 3 months. LOL
But then the liberals can say they've closed the poverty gap between the rich and poor.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
The tech work that Americans don't want to do. If you are designing a new ASIC chip, then the design work is what gets you the new job, and the stuff that gets you to the next job. The boring work is writing the verification tests.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
This guy is a short-term thinker whose horizon is no further than the next quarter, the kind of idiot the bix schools turn out in droves. He has no idea of the complexity of knowledge needed to run most tech operations or develop them. Not to mention the risk to national security of teaching some developing world worker vital technology he can take to a nation that might become our foe tomorrow.
I cringe when I think that somehow some tech worker is regarded as just a commodity in the world economy when I know that many essential skills are hard to come by and to maintain. Technology is still changing fast so while you may know some fashionable technology that the ability to augment your knowledge or to get to some older underlying knowledge are both important.
I think he's mixing up american vs european liberalism.
In Sweden at least, neo-liberals are ultra pro market people. (as are traditional liberals)
I've worked at companies where they used temp workers like Kleenex; blow your nose in it once and throw away.
It's one more reason that temporary work (or any similar third party) should not be a condition of accepting/continuing a job.
That is, if you want to be temporary, the company has to make it a competitive advantage (and by virtue of that, greater expense) to go the third party/contractor route.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
If you're treating someone that badly that money would not prevent departure, not training them only makes things worse.
You think that the employer is entitled to perfection while the people working for them have to do all the heavy lifting. That is, the employer gets a pass to make arbitrary decisions on requirements while you expect the workers to forgo economies of scale that could be attained through employer-sponsored training.
You are part of the problem and deserve whatever comes your way.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
The real reason is that the employers can keep them from moving from one employer to the next - without any thought to morale beyond threats of pulling their visa.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Not everyone is more suited to running a business than working for one. Taking your advice would be worse than taking Corley's.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Terrifying thought isn't it.
Not even upper management jobs and execuative jobs will be safe.
I think this is what is called a trickle up policy (off shoring or out sourcing wise) as more execuative jobs get shifted to the countries in which the work is actually done (to better integrate with the culture and workflow don't ya know). So that leaves who left in the incorporated company? The board, The CEx's and who else?
Perhaps the Boards will start shopping for the most cost efficeient CEO and CFO. I am shure in a world of 7 billion people there are many that can do a much better job for a lower cost. Thier shareholders may welcome that.