Slashdot Mirror
Senate Report Says CIA Misled Government About Interrogation Methods
mrspoonsi sends this news from the Washington Post:
"A report by the Senate Intelligence Committee concludes that the CIA misled the government and the public about aspects of its brutal interrogation program for years — concealing details about the severity of its methods, overstating the significance of plots and prisoners, and taking credit for critical pieces of intelligence that detainees had in fact surrendered before they were subjected to harsh techniques. The report, built around detailed chronologies of dozens of CIA detainees, documents a long-standing pattern of unsubstantiated claims as agency officials sought permission to use — and later tried to defend — excruciating interrogation methods that yielded little, if any, significant intelligence, according to U.S. officials who have reviewed the document. ... At the secret prison, Baluchi endured a regime that included being dunked in a tub filled with ice water. CIA interrogators forcibly kept his head under the water while he struggled to breathe and beat him repeatedly, hitting him with a truncheon-like object and smashing his head against a wall, officials said. As with Abu Zubaida and even Nashiri, officials said, CIA interrogators continued the harsh treatment even after it appeared that Baluchi was cooperating."
If it's obvious they were assaulting people without cause, why haven't they been arrested, prosecuted and thrown in jail?
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Why can't we all just get along?
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony.
I'd like to hold it in my arms
And keep it company.
This shakes my world view to its very core.
Also, whoever decided to auto-play audio on Slashdot should be fired.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
Cowards. They're not willing to call it what it is, because they're still the Establishment Media, and don't want to lose access to the government people who are their big information sources.
At least National Public Radio has the excuse that they're directly funded by the government (and "viewers like you", and grants from Exxon, Archer Daniels Midland, some recent movie, etc.) - it was 10 years after Gitmo before I first heard them use the T-word in a news story; before that it had only been guests on Terry Gross's interview shows (and Terry herself.)
Don't let the right-wingers tell you that either of these are "liberal" media.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Great, the robot voice has now started quoting Doctor Who. When and where will this end?
that hasn't been crossed, by both those that beget terrorism.
You know...the one with the strong AI that fires radio pulses at humans to cause neurons to fire...
Yes, that satellite based system, you know, the one that tries to hijack the human body remotely...or cause hallucinations...heart attacks...etc...
I'm sure you remember it...lot's of funding...smart computer with a big mouth that likes to chat a lot...
What's it called now? Can't seem to remember at the minute...but its the one you use to record neural activity for real-time decoding and listening to enemy thoughts, what they see and hear...oh, what do they call it...yes, mindreading something or other...tin foil hat thingy cover story and all...
Anyway, what happened to the prosecution for tens of thousands of US and other citizens around the world being sent mad, deformed and murdered???
What? Its still going on...the experiments are not finished because the system has not completed it training?
Well, fuck me...I'll just keep quiet then.
What Would Jack Bauer Say?
Ask them about their Medical Torture Program!!!!!!
Dear CIA:
What is your opinion of Obamacare?
signed,
A Concerned Voter
If the reward for cooperating is torture and more torture, why cooperate? At least keeping silent (or lying in ways not easily checked) can be a form of revenge.
with people totally disconnected from the consequences of their actions, driven by some idea and illusion in their head doing the "right thing", not to use he term "pervert", which in fact this is coming from.....
I can stand the concept of, in exceptional circumstances, the police or FBI get the evidence illegally. There are cases of murderers where clear evidence has been discarded on the flimsiest of judicial pretexts. So, instead, make the officer or prosecutor who screwed up the case get the same punishment as those convicted, not a slap on the wrist and a wink wink, and not letting the guilty go free. Jail time, and the felony conviction means they lose the right bear arms or vote.
They're looking for the "big fish", the "kingpins". The focus on catching the "kingpin" works equally badly for informants in drug cases.
Due to our own actions, the terrorists won yet another round...not a cry I'd championed previously.
The future, scratch that, the present is looking really bleak now that the average civilian can expect to be spied upon, searches and home invasions are being done without cause, due process is ignored, travel is restricted, "Homeland Security" are targeting civilians for desiring sexual contact with minors, and those declared enemies of the state are outright tortured, everything that was considered "evil" about the opposition when I was a child (be it the Third Reich or the Soviet Union) is currently taking place in the United States.
The only thing left is to disarm the populace to prevent revolt, and institute concentration or labor camps.
I never imagined I'd grow up to be embarrassed by my government and everything it stands for. Is fear next?
People sold their soul and got nothing in exchange. I'd rather have been the martyr than the inquisitor, and that's saying a lot.
This was allowed to happen and become public, for what one could argue as intimidation. 80% of war is to use psychology to mentally wear down your opponent giving them a sense of fear/impending failure. However it also used as a means to motivate your opponent, or those interested in "joining the cause" now you managed to piss of a new generation of Muslims that probably had no interest in joining.
Thus the US can keep going with its war on terror, they do the same with the war on drugs. Even people within that war know the things they report are bullshit, they reword the reports to make there propaganda seem a reality.
"40% of marijuana is coming from Mexico" bullshit, out of all the marijuana "IMPORTED" from every country outside the US 40% is assumed to be coming from Mexico the truth is they cannot determine how much actually makes into the US. And the fact remains that 92% of the pot smoked in this country was grown within the country. So in the grand scheme of things, Mexico actually only accounts for maybe 2%.
I hope this an April Fools joke. Otherwise, this is a BAD sign.
We would have to start with Bush and Cheney and the chain of command that obeyed orders. The proper charge might be murder as some of the people died of the torture that was inflicted upon them. Just as we executed German and Japanese war criminals we need to do the same with American officials. Naturally the low ranked guards were the scapegoats and they could not have said no as easily as those above them in the chain of command. Further we turned prisoners over to other nations with full knowledge that unlimited horrors including death would be applied to some of our prisoners. Use the same paint brush that the "too big to fail" jerks received. We are providing absolute proof that American values are a fraud and a falsehood displayed to the entire world including our own citizens. It is a matter of class and race. Certain people are exempt from all law in the US. Bush is one of them. I'm getting old and with luck I will not be alive to see the consequences when the public finally goes into rebellion or supports a foreign power invading this nation. I do think we are building towards an awful rebellion and chaos.
I thought the CIA WAS the government!
in the world, is the U.S. government.
The Washington Post is still too spineless to call it torture.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Well, just to play devil's (!!!) advocate, because you don't *know* Baluchi is cooperating as fully as he might be.
Ammar Al-Baluchi was unquestionably involved with moving money and goods around for Al Qaeda and was clearly involved with helping many of the 9/11 hijackers. Although that does not necessarily mean he was an active *member* of Al Qaeda or knew exactly what the 9/11 hijackers were up to, he'd have to be remarkably incurious not to know something was up. And he was captured with correspondence that was destined for Osama bin Laden.
So this is a person who, even if he had no specific knowledge of imminent attacks, knows a lot of useful things. But that actually poses a challenge for interrogators. He can give them an impressive amount of useful stuff while holding back even *more* useful stuff.
But one thing is certain: if he *had* known more important stuff, it didn't come out under torture. Nor did torture produce *anything* useful that couldn't be produced using different techniques. And now Americans -- servicemen, agents, and innocent bystandanders -- face an increased threat of torture throughout the world at the hands of people who figure if America does it, Americans should get a taste of it too.
It's important not to be too glib about dismissing torture, because in the future we're going to find ourselves in situations where it seems like a pretty good idea. And the person we're thinking of torturing may be a very bad person -- I don't think it's unreasonable to characterize Al-Baruchi's crimes as "heinous". But if ever torture was going to break the back of an enemy it would have done so with al Qaeda after 9/11.
Well, we tried it and it didn't work. What *did* work was ordinary interrogation and intelligence tradecraft. Which should come as no surprise. We spent the 19th and 20th C perfecting those approaches, and the idea that we could do better by tearing a page out of the medieval playbook should, in hindsight, seem ridiculous.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Does "misled" mean the same as lying about CIA torture methods?
... oh wait, you still seriously believe that? choice of "corporate sock puppet A" or "corporate sock puppet B" on a ballot sheet is not really democracy.
... reading between the lines. be thankful you media has managed to get the message out at all, given the level of control exerted by the powers that be over freedom of speech in the USA.
BREAKING NEWS SPIES LIE
As a simple matter of pragmatism in primate politics, disgusting as what Bushco did is I don't blame Obama. No, and I mean no, US president is going to set a precedent of investigating and potentially arresting the preceding administration's cabinet. That sets an extremely dangerous precedent that's lethally corrosive to the normal succession of power expected in a modern Democracy. It's why Ford pardoned Nixon, and why Bushco knew they would get away with it.
A somewhat smaller scale example would be if the GOP trumps up some excuse to impeach Obama, thereby (since two in a row is a pattern) setting the precedent that every future Dem president can expect an impeachment trial. That this has not occurred indicates that Obama is either cleaner than a cleanroom or covered in more teflon than Michael Jackson...
Plus, to hear the teabaggers tell it Obama is quite literally worse than Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin and Chairman Mao taking turns murdering baby American Eagles because... reasons. Imagine if he actually went and had his predecessor arrested.
Its seems like different factions of contractors (interesting backgrounds, citizenships), varied control over US gov/mil ranks and location allowed for legal advice outside the expected:
Request more FBI experts who could help, wanted to help and had years of real US legal expertise.
Many nations tried hard to move beyond legal torture after the 1975 ++ Helsinki Accords. In 2014 the final US gov reports will be historically interesting when released.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Torture only works for confessions of things you already knew for sure. Then you can force someone to give up and confess. But as an investigative method, it is just unproductive. If you don't know what the suspect knows, how can you tell if he reveals something of value? And how many not-so-bad guys came under torture because of misleading statements, produced more misleading statements (as they didn't know shit), but when they were released they bore a grudge against their torturers and had firsthand knowledge of their structure, mentality, inner workings and locations?
If the reward for cooperating is torture and more torture, why cooperate? At least keeping silent (or lying in ways not easily checked) can be a form of revenge.
It's very digusting behavior given that the formation of English law whence America gets many of its concepts of rights. Torture was recognized as ineffective in the 1300's because it works too well, anyone will confess to anything. Here's an illustrated guide for you and yours demonstrating why the CIA practices can't yield justice. The threat of torture is meant as an example to others who go against the will of the CIA, it is effective as a threat, and those imprisoned are doomed to suffer as examples to the others, not as a means of protecting anyone's freedoms.
I think part of the problem is that there is still a section of American society today who "already know for sure" that all Muslims are terrorists. And around 2002 / 2003 there were many, many more who thought this way.
"Government is nothing more, and nothing less than a bandit gang, writ large." Murray Rothbard
And you know for sure they're not?
This is 1400+ years of what Islam is about
These senators knew full well that the CIA is engaged in torture. This report is simply a BS alibi.
The Senate is simply in CYA mode.
If the reward for cooperating is torture and more torture, why cooperate?
You are confused. The reward for the CIA interrogators for getting Baluchi to cooperate is that they get to torture him. All work and no play makes Jack a dull spy. This is just to make a tedious job more fun and rewarding.
Damn, the state torturing people for information? I thought this backwards shit was behind us. We don't need this medieval shit in this day and age. Only difference is that they don't do it in ways that don't leave definitive proof. At least, they try to. These people end up psychologically disturbed. They're certainly inspiring other people to engage in terrorism. Imagine an innocent man being tortured to the point where they break psychologically. That will inspire a new generation of people who use terrorism and will be used by existing people to recruit others to engage in terrorism.
And you know for sure they're not?
This is 1400+ years of what Islam is about
All of them? Yeah, I know for sure that not all Muslims are terrorists.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
havent you seen beta?
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
I like to pretend that it doesn't exist. One day in the future I will be severely disappointed.
Torture only works for confessions of things you already knew for sure.
Well, for completeness sake, there are specialised situations in which it can yield highly valuable results, and criminals for example, know that. I'm thinking of situations like "Tell me the combination to your safe, or else..." and the like. Time locks on bank vaults were for example invented to stop the all too popular kidnapping the bank manager and holding his family hostage, "or else".
But of course you're right, that as a means of intelligence gathering these situations are so uncommon, as to render the method completely useless.
Stefan Axelsson