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How Riot's Social Scientists Fight League of Legends Trolling
An anonymous reader writes "There's an interesting interview up today with Jeffrey Lin, lead designer of social systems for Riot, the game studio behind League of Legends. Lin has a PhD in cognitive neuroscience. His recognition that most trolls are only trolls because they're having an off day has changed the way that Riot punishes players. 'In other words, you need a carrot and not a stick. Where a punishment would come across as harsh and out-of context, pointing out to players that they're letting their usually-high standards of conduct slide usually results in a change of attitude. Incentivising the good behaviour with an Honour stat which could be affected by conduct in any match also serves to reinforce that good behaviour.' As a result, Lin's seen a noticeable spike in the number of people saying 'GG' (good game) at the end of a match. It leaves you wondering: what if Activision approached Call of Duty griefers on Xbox Live the same way?"
... has done jack and squat.
Whenever my friends are playing LoL while I'm on teamspeak, 95% of what they say has to do with either teammates or the opposition being complete tools intentionally.
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
He noticed a spike in people saying GG and takes that as a general sign that the atmosphere is improving. Is it that, or are trolls tone basically unchanged, but they're just saying "GG" to get their honor stat back a little?
I've been playing LoL for about a year now, on and off, and while I can hardly claim to be playing at a high level (I think I was Bronze II last time I qualified in ranked play), my experience has largely been a positive one. Sure, there are occasional assholes, and I've even had to mute one or two people, but most games I play don't have any serious negative attitudes, blue-streak profanity, or other jerkiness.
Personally, I always try to have a good attitude myself, since I know from experience that negativity can far too easily breed, especially when more than one person in a given group is acting that way, and cheerfulness can also be contagious.
I have high hopes for the introduction of the Team Builder matchmaking system, which should reduce or remove the contention for roles and positions that has far too often marred the pre-game lobby in League...once they can make sure its wait times are reasonable.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
If they're having an off day, just give them a "participation" trophy. That'll cheer the poor little sods up! It worked for the edumacation system, didn't it?
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
I understand that some trolling is bullying: that's when it becomes griefing - but most trolling is just sarcastic fun. I have, on many occasions, made joking jest and played the role (with dripping socratic irony) of the troll to the great delight of myself and others.
If somebody is truly upset, however, I would not, could not, continue to deride them. So that's where the fine line may be drawn.
Those that would are to be called griefers, not trolls.
Griefers are trolls intending harm. Trolls in my opinion and in my definition are merely out for Natalie Portman's hot grits - whatever those may be.
Harsh words on the internet beat shooting up schools.
As someone who grew up in the cohort that received that complaint plenty, do you know how many participation trophies I ever got in school?
Zero. Plus two from playing out-side-the-school-system baseball little leagues I didn't care about. And those went to the team, not me.
It leaves you wondering: what if Activision approached Call of Duty griefers on Xbox Live the same way?
No it doesn't, because in my experience, most console trolls/griefers aren't "people having an off day," they're foul-mouthed 14-year-olds with shitty excuses for parents.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Do people have behaviors? yes.
Do people interact socially? yes
Can it be monitored? yes.
Can data be collected form it? Yes
can it be manipulated successfully? Yes
Can predictions be made? yes.
I'm sorry, you don't think it's a science ...why, exactly?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I didn't RTFA but as someone who's played his fair share of League of Legends, there aren't nearly as many *trolls* in the game as people think. When I say troll, I mean someone who intentionally plays badly so that their team loses, OR is constantly harassing others for no apparent reason, with the sole intention of getting them riled up. Every so often, you will encounter one of these trolls, but it is a very rare occurrence (at least in the leagues/divisions I play in, it might be different in bronze).
However, what I do see a lot of is players who are arrogant and competitive, and therefore start raging at their teammates when they make the slightest mistake, even if the raging player isn't doing well at all himself. They live in a delusional bubble where they think everything they do is perfect, and everyone else should listen to them. These players are what give the League community its bad name. And these are not people having an off day, these are narcissists who have no idea how the game really works.
A lot of the people who are legitimate trolls will not come into the game with the intention of trolling, but will be provoked by the aforementioned narcissist. Also, there are some players that are simply bad at the game, and they get mistakenly labelled as trolls, or they feel too ashamed to admit they are bad and therefore try to cover it up by going "lol im just trolling". Players who have an off-day might be playing badly, and then be labelled as a troll on those days.
So, the result of the relatively toxic community is because of the competitive environment that the game is in, which is unavoidable for an online multiplayer videogame, unless you want everybody winning. The honor system does nothing (and you'll see as you get into more competitive higher leveled ranked games, that receiving honor becomes much rarer).
At least the PhD in neuroscience gets paid well...
Here's a pair of links to talks Lyte has given on their systems. It's really interesting stuff. At GDC and a classroom presentation.
Ensure that people need each other. If people can treat others like an expendable commodity, they will treat each other as such.
You'll notice that there was virtually no griefing or trolling in old MMOs. Why? Because you didn't survive a day without the aid of anyone else. Ever tried to get anything accomplished alone in old school DAoC? Or, hell, EQ? You were dependent on the rest of the server to get your gear back in case you died in some godforsaken corner. So if Mr. Troll died somewhere and was crying for aid to get his oh so valuable loot back before it despawned for good, at best he was played a very sad song on the smallest violin on earth.
Of course that's not a very troll friendly territory. If antisocial behaviour has consequences, being the asshole is only half as much fun. So if you want people to behave, there's no need for a honor badge system or putting little golden stickers into their textbooks. You simply need to let people sort it out. But of course, that's not what is wanted. Because trolls are not the game makers' problem, it's the players' problem.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Not sure where you are getting your data for DOTA 2, a player only has so many reports they can submit in a certain time frame. There have been plenty of times someone said they "Reported" me because I accidentally messed up on something, but no official action was taken. And only maybe two or three times has an action been taken against the dozen or so people I have reported.
So while the players do have "Power", that I guess could be "Abused", it is in no way ultimate or far-reaching. I rarely see trolls on DOTA anyway, like I said, I have reported maybe 12 people, out of what like... 800 games or so? I do not recall my numbers, sorry.
And as for CSGO, I have no idea what that is, so I cannot speak to it.
Give their champions a graduation cap and gown every time they level up!
Based on my own games I know if you play 5 games a day you need to file 2-3 reports on average
That ratio is entirely too high, and indicates something is fundamentally wrong with the system implemented to take care of trolls.
Trolling on the internet has become a substitute for "kicking the dog" when one is feeling shitty. Just go online and harmlessly flame people for whatever reason.
It seems as though there is less and less control in our lives. You can do everything right and still get in the ass. And of course, there are always people out there to blame you for making the "wrong" decisions - "What?! You followed your passion?! How stupid! Go where the money is!" (Of course back when times were good 90's, folks where condemning people for "just doing it for the money".)
Yeah, I woke up one day and said, "Gee! This is a great day to make the wrong decisions because I really want to fuck up my life!"
We have become a cruel, shallow, snobbish society. If you are not in a well paying profession, "then who needs you" seems to be the attitude these days.
I was watching the "making of" videos on Fox for "Cosmos" with Tyson. There were a lot of "arty" people who made it happen. (Sagan's widow - Anne Druyan - is a writer. She's the one that made "Contact" so awesome.) People who helped make it entertaining and informative. That is something scientists or engineers hardly ever do - but the arty people (animators, writers, designers, etc ...) makes that show brilliant and accessible.
And considering how counter arguments for creationism is peppered throughout, I really think it will get folks who are predisposed to those beliefs to maybe question them.
And it helps that they point out that many of these scientists were quite devout in their religions.
It also helps that Neil is this congenial big Teddy Bear of a man. I wish there was a Neil deGrasse Tyson stuffed toy that I could go to bed with.
In theory one might seem like trolls are all the same. Whoever thinks like this has never been in a LOL champion select. There's nothing like the community behavior in this game - every single action (or inaction) is an excuse to offend you, your family, your religion, your skin and your country. People will start grieving at minute minus 2 for the right to a strategic position, which is based on first calling in written chat (think 2+ guys with 100ms latency chatting the same position at once), they will continue to do so because of items bought. Never mind you actually dying out of being your first time on a champ - most times you will be offended just because you don't think the same way as others. Even pro teams have these issues. The game is too darn complex (not hard per say, it just branches way too much, has too many variables). People will flame for you picking a champion they don't like - stats wise, gameplay wise, or just for its looks. It's ridiculous. Everybody is in a constant state of dick size comparison, even female players. I have been in more than one TeamSpeak room listening to chicks spamming "pussy" to their entire team, for absolutely disputable reasons. People will go from "newb" to IRL death threats in a matter of minutes, and every day that passes Riot hires thousands of honorary wannabe admins, since 80% of people seem to have the ability to ban. Most of these things might have been seen in FPSs, MMORPGs, or even 4chan, IRC or WWW-wide comment threads. Nothing compares. I would go as far as to say it's part of its glamour - Riot just introduced a matchmaking system which eliminates the primary issue of trolling (position picking). From the time it takes to get inside a queue compared to blind picks, you can figure it's not getting a lot of prime-time ratings. And most games in that mode are actually a breeze, with people actually sending helping words to each other in adversity, something rare.
when i can have much for fun trolling your ass?
I still long for the original Deus Ex multiplayer days. Starting all together in one room... And I'm armed with a flamethrower hahahahaha
Players should be able to hire Matt Dillon to protect them from Griefers.
Science and the idiots who make policies are two completely different things. I'm not sure why you think that social science isn't falsifiable either. Just because you can't make something happen every single time doesn't mean it's completely worthless.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
Earlier this year I downloaded LoL from their main page, and it installed Pando Media Player as part of the install.
Pando then updated itself, and the update installed a nasty virus payload, including a browser hijacker. This is because Pando closed its doors at the end of last year, and its self-update has sense been hacked and now delivers malware.
All they say on the forums is "just don't install Pando, it isn't actually required, and we plan to remove it someday."
This is totally unacceptable, since they are distributing the virus now as part of their default install package.
I am not at all impressed with their diligence.
Exactly, in a way. There are much smarter ways to create happy gamers instead of "We know the only right way to play LOL." The problem with Riot is they are so arrogant. Some people like to play aggressively, others don't. In most gaming communities that's okay. Not on LOL supposedly.
Use chat logs and scores/ratios to create gamer profiles. Match similar types of players together. Everyone will be happy without feeling forced to say gg after a game. What a insincere and frivolous way to measure gamer happiness.
Don't passive-aggresively ban players for a week like you're the player's parent. And at least give a reason.
All it takes is a little data analytics and leaving your neckbeard at home Riot.
You'll notice that there was virtually no griefing or trolling in old MMOs. Why? Because you didn't survive a day without the aid of anyone else.
Quite the opposite. EQ1 fostered such things as deliberately dropping trains on people you were pissed off at. Camping their corpses (in PVP) or training things to a corpse and Feign death / memwipe to leave them there in PVE. They'd also steal your kills, ninja your loot, pull the named after you cleared to him...
People were absolute douchebags on a regular basis.
Ever tried to get anything accomplished alone in old school DAoC? Or, hell, EQ? You were dependent on the rest of the server to get your gear back in case you died in some godforsaken corner.
This part is true, but that just forced the trolls to form into teams of like minded trolls... and that enabled new kinds of team trolling... e.g. having a high level shaman troll heal and buff your low level noobie harrassing troll to make him invincible as he ran around ganking people (in PVP) or make him that much more effective at training etc.
Then they'd log off their troll alts, login their main, and go off and raid with a large group of 'friends' who thought they were just another fine upstanding player.
Because trolls are not the game makers' problem, it's the players' problem.
The players need tools to deal with the trolls though.
You'll notice that there was virtually no griefing or trolling in old MMOs.
Lord British and the Ultima Online community would beg to differ.
Some people like to play aggressively, others don't. In most gaming communities that's okay. Not on LOL supposedly.
Uhm... have you ever played LoL? I mean, agressive play is one thing. But having every 5 out of 6 words being an insult or a slur doesn't really help me game. It's not aggressive play, it has NOTHING at all to do with play. And a lot with an inability to express themselves and their frustration at being so bad at the game.
It just makes me look for another game where I don't have to put up with pre-teens who just escaped from mama's supervision. And that's why LoL is right: they need to protect the normal players from the minority of asshats that can't deal with losing a game.
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
CSGO = CS:GO (Counter Strike Global Offensive)
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Ensure that people need each other. If people can treat others like an expendable commodity, they will treat each other as such.
You've clearly never played MOBA's like LoL/Dota.
Trolling works so well in these games because everybody depends on everybody else. Its a 5v5 game, and if a single person trolls on your team, you are completely screwed. You aren't going to win. That makes trolling very powerful, and the trolls know it, which encourages them to troll all the harder.
In many games where you don't need teammates so much, you can just stick the troll on mute and move on with their life. So the troll is just wasting his own time. Its not much fun to troll if everybody can ignore you and move on with their lives.
But LoL/Dota are notorious for their trolls precisely because the games are set up to ensure that you need teammates. The troll is essentially guaranteed that feedback where he knows that he ruined somebody's time even if they stuck him on mute. Its almost guaranteed success for the trolling due to the game structure.
Ban any account that does it on the first action. It's not like they don't have server and chat logs to look into this kind of thing, so verification would be pretty trivial. And for those who falsely accuse people of trolling and griefing, well that would get tracked as well. Banned.
It wouldn't take long for people to either change their behavior or move to another game. But that second option is exactly the reason why companies don't really want to fix the problem.
There's a lot to unpack here but I think I understand what you're saying.
The toxically rigid gender roles you're describing didn't get invented in the 1950's. They've existed with minor variations for centuries. The reason the 1950's look especially bad is because they were at the end of a long static period, just before the 1960's-70's when things started to get dramatically better. (Which isn't to say that there isn't still room for improvement, even today.)
Now, there were some phony social scientists claiming that these rigid gender roles were the natural order of things, just like there were phony medical researchers claiming that smoking was good for you. And they got a lot of publicity from monied interests who wanted to preserve the status quo. People who were actually doing real social science were able to figure out the problems that rigid gender roles were causing. They didn't get as much publicity as they deserved, but that's not because they were using bad methodology.
Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" is a good book on the subject. He talks more about racism than sexism, but it'll still give you a good picture of the kind of dynamic that was in play.
GG, faggot.
I tired playing LOL for a while. I liked the game, but I couldn't stand the community. Every game I played featured someone who was crying that someone else took thier character or someone didn't know how to play. Anyone who thinks this is just players having an "off day" is delusional.
As an old fart "gamer" I find temper tantrums and trolls in the chat window of most games are relatively easy to ignore but the constant flow of bullshit does get in the way of useful communication between teammates. I like the common gaming feature where you can quickly filter a particular troll/spammer out of the chat window by clicking "ignore" on their name. It's a simple and very effective way to clean up the chat window on the spot. I don't use audio chat but it wouldn't surprise me if it had a similar feature.
Win, lose, or draw, I call 'gg' when I die, a lot of kids don't understand old fashioned "sportsmanship" so it sometimes confuses them and they respond with something like - "How is it gg? We lost!". Problem is, if they are old/sober enough to type coherent comments into a chat window and still don't get the "play nice" thing, they probably never will.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Ensure that people need each other. If people can treat others like an expendable commodity, they will treat each other as such.
Hmm. By ensuring people need each other, you are making them all expendable commodities, beating them to the punch.
I'm not sure I agree with that. You make it sound as if we just got all the Republicans and Democrats and Terrorists (but I digress) and threw them in the same room together with some 6-year olds (again, digressing) they would just get along.
I would almost say the better solution is threaten people that if they don't get along, they will have to hang out together. That would seemingly be more effective.
Of course that's not a very troll friendly territory. If antisocial behaviour has consequences, being the asshole is only half as much fun.
Interesting post, but it seems entirely contingent on the theory that trolling and "antisocial" behavior are simply a matter of popularity and who is targeted.
If 10 people are being assholes and 3 are not, it seems like it just depends on who you ask who is "trolling."
What makes the 10 more trustworthy? They have every reason to lie.
And what are the consequences for the 10?
Your system seems like nothing more than let the biggest mob troll away freely.
Gee, I haven't said that since Pong...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
There's a lot to unpack here but I think I understand what you're saying.The toxically rigid gender roles you're describing didn't get invented in the 1950's. They've existed with minor variations for centuries.
Not really no. The historical reality is that families, generations of families lived under the same roof or in close knit communities for most of history.
The reason the 1950's look especially bad is because they were at the end of a long static period, just before the 1960's-70's when things started to get dramatically better.
Better except for the lot of men you mean. Those gosh darned suicide rates again, not to mention graduation rates, criminal sentences, lifespans, and on and on...
Stephen J. Gould's "The Mismeasure of Man" is a good book on the subject. He talks more about racism than sexism, but it'll still give you a good picture of the kind of dynamic that was in play.
Oh for pity's sake. Sexism is not racism, women are not a minority and are not now nor ever were oppressed.
You'll notice that there was virtually no griefing or trolling in old MMOs.
I call bullshit.
From 2001 till 2004 I played the oldest of the popular online MMOs; Ultima Online. Trolling occurred through excessive player killing, disruption of guild activities and dungeoneering plus people doing some honest mining. It was characteristic celebrated amongst perpetrators and adrenaline junkies but reviled amongst those wanting a less combative, PvE experience.
It was already on the decrease when I joined up thanks to the introduction of a non-combat realm. Nowadays a few thousand people yearning for the lawlessness of the old UO have founded their own free servers replicating the 'Wild West' culture.
Trolling isn't exclusive to new MMOs or modern forums, social media and so on. It was present in the early days of Usenet, the earliest chat rooms and IRC channels, and from the very first online games venturing beyond LAN and Intranet play.
Yes, but a troll can afford to piss off 4 people. It would be very different if HE, and in turn his experience, dependent on those 4 people. To give you an example, in a game I played it was virtually impossible to be a troll, simply because the "top floor" of players was rather limited in numbers and the people who organized the more interesting events were even fewer in numbers. If it became known that you're a nuisance, you were done for.
It took care of troll pretty fucking quickly.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Ensure that people need each other. If people can treat others like an expendable commodity, they will treat each other as such.
Works both ways. In games like LoL players really need each other. It's 5v5 PvP, frequently with random people. That can mean a lot of more and less justified grief between the teammates. However, if it wasn't as easy for a player to screw it up for the team, maybe it wouldn't be as fun...
By the way, I assumed they were using trolling in the new, incorrect sense of being a mean asshole (in the chat, etc). Not really clear from the article what they actually mean by trolling
Seriously, he's determining the amount of trolling going on by the number of people saying GG at the end of games? The biggest trolls I've faced have said "gg", that's half the schtick. They say "gg" just to rub in the fact that they're assholes. How about you start by killing the taunt/laugh/talking shit after the first 30 seconds of the game? The trolls have simply evolved, they now know all they have to do is talk trash in the post-game lobby, and spam everyone with annoying taunting/laughing all game, and they'll never get in trouble, because Riot doesn't give you any option to report a player for any troll-ish action beyond all chat content. gg
The consequences of their actions aren't there in these games. Free-to-play and reroll as many times as you like and a massive playerbase with only pros reaching the 'top floor.' The top floor of these games is like the Poker guys on ESPN, some do tournaments for a living and make significant amounts of money, so the guy playing 2-3 hours a day rarely has a shot (watch the Free-to-play documentary on Steam).
HoN at its inception had a lot less trolling due to tracking, kickability, and the $20 accounts, but the sheer nature of the game bred a ton of animosity. Imagine a game of football where one teammate constantly let you down, but without the physical activity to burn out that frustration and that you couldn't ever bench that player for the match. That's what these games are.
The solution is literally a million dollar question. So many have tried and failed. If someone figures it out, people will flock to it within the genre because new player attrition is awful in DotA 2, HoN, and LoL.
Playing aggressively is OK. Being offensive is counterproductive for the team, period. Apparently Riot tracks game outcomes and correlates the win loss percentage with reports of offensive behavior toward teammates. Games that have good team dynamics (no trolling/flaming of teammates, etc.) result in a higher percentage of wins.
And from what Riot is saying, what I think you are calling "playing aggressively" is an anomaly, relegated to infrequent outbursts on a "bad day" potentially by any player. A profile system wouldn't account for this one-off behavior because it is so intermittent and rare. That being said, if you did implement a profile system, would a flamethrower wielding troll with a hair temper want to play with 9 other similarly foul tempered combustonauts? That is an interesting question, and I think the answer is no. I can even imagine the game devolving into a chat room, with everyone so busy insulting each other they hardly even play the game.
I have played LoL for quite a while and the efforts they have made toward improving player conduct have had an undeniably positive effect on the game experience. Are there times I would like to unload with both barrels on a teammate? Sure there are, and I actually have. However, with the reward system, the player-run Tribunal punishment system (I have never been banned or even reprimanded BTW), and Riot's conveyance of the idea that cohesive teams result in better game outcomes, the knee-jerk reaction to flame someone is tempered and delayed enough to permit a different decision tree to be considered.
So instead of the usual flame related decisions ("Hmm which would be better to use? Talk about their mom, insult their sexual prowess or orientation, or go for the nuclear option and blast them with n-bombs?") the thought process is subverted to "Should I encourage them, provide positive constructive criticism, make suggestions on team oriented strategies to prevent the same problem, or just let them and the team know its OK and we will recover." This is good thing.
In some ways, their efforts to use social engineering with a reward and punishment system have made me into a social engineer as well. I look for ways to elicit positive responses from other players that will result in Honor rewards for myself. I also look for opportunities to make bad situations better, make good situations great, and generally help my team with the words I use. Does the team need a leader? Well then I step up and with positive encouragement and proper deference assume that role. Is there a possible conflict developing on the team between players? OK, what can I do to put myself in a position to neutralize that conflict to ensure the health of the team dynamic?
In summary I will say that their in-game controls have resulted in a much better gaming experience for me and many others. I commend them for their efforts and as a direct result of these efforts I will continue to spend my hard earned coin on frivolous skins, buying champions, and other assorted digital trinkets they offer in endless profusion and permutations. Looks like Riot has revealed in this story the step just before 3) PROFIT!
When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
Is that what you think? So, quantum physics isn't science? Statistics aren't science? What about computational fluid dynamics, that produces quite accurate results, but can't account for every situation, so it won't be completely accurate every time.
Is 1563649 a prime number?
Common Situation:"Hey, they can see you right now Player 1, do you mind moving back into the bush fully?"
Player 2:"shutup and stop complaining you take this game too seriously, this is unranked."
and then you get reported and you throw your hands up in the air because half the players on this game are contrarians.
Calling out one player for treating his team as pawns in his high score strategy is also an easy way to make your whole team pissed off.
"STFU his score is 12/0/1 you are 12/12/400 he is obviously a better team player."
And then you have the LOL forums. Its a cesspool of hypocrisy and groupthink. As an experiment search for any topic a moderator started that outlines a controversial change. Find the first post that disagrees with the moderator. Then read the next ten posts. They will all defend Riot and convey varying degrees of saying the dissenting player is an idiot and rude for calling the moderator an idiot.
If you're trolling in LOL and you get put with another group of trolls do you think you care about the game? There could be some type of ven diagram that will have varying shades of grey for troll/teamplayer/cusser/asshole/nice guy/supporter/high ratio kills/deaths/low kills/deaths. It'd be a lot better than to start with a stick, find out its a bad idea and then add a weaker carrot, then dilute the stick. It just shows they are aimlessly trying to adapt their original strategy. I've played since Beta and all I've seen is a homogenization of play styles and attitudes and its not the best attitude and I'll argue to my death its a bad strategy.