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Mozilla Appoints Former Marketing Head Interim CEO

itwbennett (1594911) writes "Following the contentious and ultimately failed appointment of Brendan Eich as CEO last month, the Mozilla Corporation has appointed Chris Beard to the board of directors and made him interim CEO. Beard starting working as chief marketing officer for Mozilla in 2004, and oversaw the launch of its current browser, Firefox, in 2005. Beard also managed the launches of Firefox on Android and the Firefox OS for mobile phones." See the official announcement. Quoting: "We began exploring the idea of Chris joining the Board of Directors some months ago. Chris has been a Mozillian longer than most. He’s been actively involved with Mozilla since before we shipped Firefox 1.0, he’s guided and directed many of our innovative projects, and his vision and sense of Mozilla is equal to anyone’s. I have relied on his judgement and advice for nearly a decade. This is an excellent time for Chris to bring his understanding of Mozilla to the Board."

112 of 204 comments (clear)

  1. How do you know the company is dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Marketing begins to run things.

    1. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by cbhacking · · Score: 4, Informative

      Normally I might agree, but Firefox doesn't need to market in the same way that other companies do. Their income comes from very non-traditional sources, and their products are free. That's not to say I *like* the idea of marketing running the place, but I think it's better than it sounds. Mozilla's marketing has been about awareness, much more than about trying to sell something.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    2. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by supremebob · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Yeah, but he'll probably be able to keep his job as long as he wasn't dumb enough to publically say anything bad about gays.

    3. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wonder what his stance is on abortion, surely if he has an opinion on it he won't last long in that job. While I don't agree with his position on prop 8 that is his opinion and those employees had no right to bully him out of his job for it. They wouldn't go as far as quitting or to not use Javascript (him being the inventor and all) but they wanted to get rid of him while having no consequences themselves which shows they have a least possible effort approach to supporting their cause.

    4. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      It's funny how the same groups aren't throwing a hissy fit over the head of OKCupid or Obama. Oh that's right, the head of OKCupid supposedly supported someone over a "tech" issue...something totally different...yep. And Obama supported exactly the same issue...

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    5. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      By vilifying him for not being a diamond shitter, you're doing no better than the people who vilified him over his donations.

      You either take the bullet for your team, or you lose "customers". In this case, Eich decided to take one for the team. It's hardly his fault that the pitchfork crowd decided to crucify him because they felt they could run the company better than he could. He proved that he cares more about Mozilla than they do, first by helping to create Mozilla from Netscape's ashes, and then leaving when the writing was on the wall.

      Mozilla isn't the kind of big-league company that can stand up to bullying. If you think they can, then you've clearly got an inflated opinion of them. They're Mozilla, not Google.

    6. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The gays should demand he tell them his views on gays. After all, it is an integral aspect of the position.

    7. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Google is a "non-traditional source"?

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    8. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      What I really resent OKCupid for is that popup for Firefox users. Thanks, useless random website the internet could do without, for helping fuck up something actually necessary. Yeah it was not their call that Eich resigned, he did that - but they still what they did, riding the dick of this issue for brownie points, either not caring or not having the faintest clue how precious the few remaining players for a free internet are. Anyone reading this who cheered for this, you're a poopy head.

      If only "referral traffic from OKCupid" was a thing! Then I'd patronize anyone coming from there, and set a cookie that they're stupid and should be made fun of henceforth. That would show them.

    9. Re:How do you know the company is dying? by gsnedders · · Score: 1

      Disregarding him as nothing more than a marketer is disingenuous at best --- Chris Beard was one of the early guys working on porting Linux to PA-RISC in the late 90s. He most certainly has experience of software engineering, and not just marketing it.

  2. Nice name by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

    Not to be "that guy" but I do kind of chuckle that there are connotations to the man's last name.

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
    1. Re:Nice name by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      "Head" isn't his last name, neither is Former his first name, nor Marketing his middle.
      Or are you talking about Bearding the Dragon (Mozilla)?

    2. Re:Nice name by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      self-woosh

  3. It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Congress needs to establish a commission of inquiry to help us identify people who don't agree with gay marriage, so they can be outed and ostracized. You know the routine: "Are you, or have you ever been, a conservative/orthodox/fundamentalist Christian, Muslim, or Jew?"

    As we find these scumbags, we can work to deny them the right to start businesses in our cities like Rahm Emmanuel did in Chicago. Some of them are artisans: we can attempt to commission artistic works in conflict with their beliefs, and sue them into oblivion when they refuse. We can pressure them to resign from their jobs.

    As recent Obama voters, it's not like we're huge hypocrites or anything. Please understand that the Democratic party is about democracy -- that's why we rejoice that California's popularly-voted Proposition 8 was overturned by a few activist judges. And we're about tolerance -- that's why we're trying to drive Christians, Muslims, and Jews out of public life by destroying their ability to hold jobs or participate in commerce.

    1. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1, Troll

      OK, I can understand the "Flamebait" mod, I get it. My post reads like provocative satire, but it's also unfortunately true. What part of it is not true, O Gentle Reader?

    2. Re:It's not enough by jesseck · · Score: 1

      Mod up... while this doesn't fit well with the utopian ideal of the DNC, it is reality.

    3. Re:It's not enough by Toth · · Score: 2, Informative

      I would rescue the above from Flamebait if I had points. It's on-topic for this thread (sort-of). Whether you agree with it or not, it fits here.

    4. Re:It's not enough by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      If we wanted the truth we would have elected Ron Paul as President years ago. We prefer lies, tell us what we want to hear.

    5. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      For one, Rahm Emanuel didn't work to deny Chick-fil-A' anything in Chicago. He simply responded to a question by a reporter regarding an Alderman’s announcement that he would block construction of a Chick-fil-A restaurant in his district. Saying "Chick-fil-A values are not Chicago values" doesn't really stop Chick-fil-A from doing anything, now does it?

      I disagree, since Emanuel was speaking as mayor and giving tacit approval to the alderman's actions. That puts Emanuel on the "Irish need not apply" side. We can argue about whether such speech constitutes "working" or not. If speech isn't working, then I'm afraid mayors don't do very much work. :p

      Also, there's a high likelihood that anything from a link to Fox News doesn't contain much factual information.

      That may be true. But whenever I post a link, it is not with an expectation that people will either blindly believe, or blindly disbelieve it. I expect people to use these links to just become aware of stuff and discuss further. If you never look at stories covered by conservative media, then you will probably remain unaware of many stories that might otherwise enrich and inform your worldview. (Wow, look at me lecturing the AC.)

      One thing that is most definitely true about your post is it's a troll. You can probably count on a few of those mods as well.

      Whatever.

    6. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 2

      I agree with you that rich, white, heterosexual men are not typically persecuted in our society, which is great for rich, white, heterosexual men. However, when it does happen, it is not okay. That is all, thank you for playing, my dear AC.

    7. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      You can boycott Mozilla if you want. Personally I don't think it's really fair nor what Brendan Eich would want people to do. I'm solidly in the Rodney King camp: "Can't we all just get along?"

    8. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Sorry, my dear AC. It doesn't really matter whether you want to quibble about whether Emanuel's public statement amounted to efforts/actions/etc. The alderman's actions that Emanuel was tacitly supporting were so utterly and obviously illegal under our constitution that this whole debate we're having is an exercise in silliness. I grant your point that the alderman took the action, and Emanual made a public statement in support of it. So what? I lump them both in the "Irish need not apply" camp.

    9. Re:It's not enough by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Also, there's a high likelihood that anything from a link to Fox News doesn't contain much factual information.

      So rather than address the issue linked to, you're just going to slip into typical lefty ad hominem in order to avoid the substance of the matter? Yup, that's what you did.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    10. Re:It's not enough by cbhacking · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Flamebait doesn't have to be off-topic. Off-topic stuff is supposed to get modded off-topic, not flamebait. Flamebait is saying things to get people pissed off, like talking about Congress outing and ostracizing religious people, and linking to a news story about the "gay mafia" (about as idiotic a term as I've ever heard).

      The other of the post emself admitted it was flamebait.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    11. Re:It's not enough by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sorry, my dear AC. It doesn't really matter whether you want to quibble about whether Emanuel's public statement amounted to efforts/actions/etc.

      I'm not quibbling with you, I'm trolling you. The fact that you can't resist replying shows you're desperately trying to salvage an untenable position.

      I grant your point that the alderman took the action, and Emanual made a public statement in support of it. So what?

      First of all, that isn't my point. Second, the "so what" is this: If you said "Alderman Joe Moreno" instead of "Rahm Emmanuel" in your post, you would have been correct. But you didn't say that, and therefore you were wrong. You then smugly asked /. to tell you which part of you post wasn't true. Well, you obviously can't handle the truth - or more accurately - you're one of those unfortunate people who can't admit when they're wrong. Too bad for you, my dear.

    12. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Wait. Who are you, and what did you do with my Anonymous Coward? Please give him/her back at once.

    13. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Sweet, sweet happiness is restored. Thanks dude.

    14. Re:It's not enough by SpankiMonki · · Score: 1

      LOL. Now I kinda feel like a dick. Well played, sir.

    15. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong! Wholly fuck! Absolutely wrong!

      Flamebait is not about "saying things to get people pissed off"! Flamebait is about intentionally trolling to insight a response.

      Reading a damn dictionary is not that hard, so stop making up your own definitions for words. Further: I realize that people inventing their own definitions tend to be slow so I'll attempt to clarify. An opinion presented may piss you off by nature, because you have a different opinion. I.E. "There is a God" vs. "There is no God". If a person provides their opinion with intentionally inflammatory material, like "You are all burning in hell for not believing." or "Darwin dumbass!" (as is often done) that is trolling and possibly flamebait. A person simply expressing their opinion is not a troll or flame bait. These differences happen often with emotionally topics, such as politics and morality.

      See the definition for Flamebait here, and Troll here, and Flame here(2.).

      When an opinion is well articulated and not written to be intentionally offensive, such as GP is, it's a different opinion not a Troll. If you don't like their opinion, present your counter points instead of whining and trying to censor by moderation. If you can't write well articulated retort to back your opinion, don't try do moderate people out of discussions. Improve your writing skills and opinion until you can retort.

      Even if the opinion is not the "Popular" opinion the goal of moderation is to encourage dialogue, not censor opinions you don't like. If the post is on topic and generates responses (while not being a flame or troll) then the post should be moderated higher.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    16. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      You are confusing Rodney with Martin Luther.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    17. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Nah, google it.

    18. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Rodney said "Can we all get along?", not "Can't we all just get along?". Google it

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    19. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      OK, granted. :)

      I'll just close with a really poignant statement Gandhi once made: "Can't we all just be the change we wish to see in the world?"

    20. Re:It's not enough by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      > progressive hypocrisy

      Rather, hypocrisy pretending to be progressiveness.

      But of course, slashdot was always full of sore AC who are just there to catch "liberals" be stupid, as if that would help improve their own station. Here's how you can help with global warming, go play in traffic.

    21. Re:It's not enough by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I really don't see any problem with the bakery incident. The bakery is a business, it offers products and services to the public. One of those services is baking cakes. Like all businesses it is required to abide by anti-discrimination laws, e.g. they can't put up a "no blacks, no Irish" sign in the window or refuse to serve Mexicans. That's the deal, if you want to run a business and benefit from all the things society offers you have to run it by the rules society laid down, even if you really would rather not make cakes for niggers or pay any taxes that fund social healthcare and contraception.

      Spin it around, would you be okay with the bakery being driven out because the owner of the shop they rent decided he didn't like Christians?

      Come on, all they are being asked to do is provide their services equally to everyone, in the same way that society provides a good environment to conduct business in to them. They sound like they want to have their cake and eat it.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    22. Re:It's not enough by sideslash · · Score: 1

      The bakery incident is tricky. I can think of situations where it's obviously in the public's best interest to disallow discrimination, and situations where it seems like ridiculous nanny statism. For example, should a Jewish painter be required to accept a commissioned painting with heavily Christian themes? I'd suggest not. Everybody has to eat, but it seems to me that the government should leave artistic expression alone. Does that make sense? You may disagree, which is fine...

    23. Re:It's not enough by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Terms like "Gay mafia" should be used in cases where a bunch of people get up and scream loudly to assassinate the character and career of someone they disagree with, because uh... because they disagree with him about gays!

      Otherwise it's stupid. Gay people wanting to not be denied employment is not "gay mafia", it's "your employer is an asshole".

    24. Re:It's not enough by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Let's go back to Martin Luther King instead. Basic income for all! Our current welfare paradigm is broken and needs to be thrown out.

    25. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      Well, judging by your post (an excellent example of flamebait) you yourself have trouble distinguishing between opinions that are merely unpopular and may piss people off, and those those written to be as insulting and crude as possible.

      If I had mod points I would give you and grandparent flamebait. The content of your post is a quibble over definitions, but you start off with "Wrong! Wholly fuck! Absolutely wrong!", and end with passive-aggressively suggesting that parent needs or cares about your posting advice. Jesus, have the balls to insult people openly if you are going to spread your bitchiness over the internet.

      So in conclusion, I realize that people who like to mouth off tend to be slow, so here is some far-from-friendly advice: think before you post and if you're having a bad day just keep it to yourself.

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    26. Re:It's not enough by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone on any grounds. I fail to understand how you can be forced to service blacks if you can refuse service to anyone on any grounds. These seem logically inconsistent.

    27. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I'll respond to your post the same way I responded above. Read the definitions provided instead of inventing your own definitions for words and terminology.

      It takes a good amount of ignorance to confuse an expletive statement with ad hominem, and you are confused. No need to discuss the rest of your comments past that point.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    28. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I agree with the sentiment, I was just confused about your reference. Many great people have said very similar quotes. Gandhi and MLK are in a very different class of people from Rodney King in my opinion.

      And for posterity I'm not saying he should have been beaten by cops. That act was very wrong. The reason he was beaten was because of illegal criminal activity. It was very different from speaking out against human rights violations like MLK and Gandhi did.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    29. Re:It's not enough by Blue+Stone · · Score: 1

      >Flamebait is about intentionally trolling to insight a response.

      >Reading a damn dictionary is not that hard, so stop making up your own definitions for words.

      Modded: Ironylicious

      (ps. it's spelled "incite" in that context).

      --
      Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
    30. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      Why did you bother to reply when you clearly did not read my post?

      I read your definitions, and your post. Flamebait: An email, usually to a message board, written with intent to offend\anger\enrage other persons, so that they will send a flaming email in reply. The post your replied to said flamebait is, "saying things to get people pissed off". The second statement lacks precision, but I don't see a huge disagreement here. You chose to respond with, "Wrong! Wholly fuck! Absolutely wrong!".

      I honestly thought your rudeness was deliberate, but perhaps you're just a dumb asshole who doesn't know how to talk to other people. If you wrote your post that way and didn't see anything wrong with it then that is pretty sad.

      I stand by my call. If I had mod points, and I seem to get them quite often, your post would have deservedly gotten a flamebait. You also clearly failed to read the post you originally answered, as I don't see any wide gulf between your definitions and theirs. Bad, bad, posting all around.

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    31. Re:It's not enough by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      The same could be said about any other label politicians use, and we're not really talking about (just) politicians here anyway, so that's kind of doubly moot.

    32. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      You can not tell a difference between an expletive/exclamation and an ad homimem. Here is some basic language information and instruction. This relates directly to the language you are using, and claim to be offended by. I'd suggest that you attempt to educate yourself on the English language because this is not a University and I am not paid to teach you.

      You claim falsely that my "Wholly fuck" and "Absolutely Wrong" are rude/rudeness/Flamebait by lumping them repeatedly into a single statement. Those are 2 separate statements, and nowhere is there a personal attack or "rudeness" in either statement. I provide examples and references, so the only way you can claim "flamebait" is to ignore the majority of the post and redefine words.

      The statements "Wrong!" and "Absolutely Wrong" are statements of fact. Facts which were provided in the post and you claimed to read. If you are offended by someone being corrected you have severe psychological problems. Not that uncommon unfortunately. We have schools that reward children for being wrong because they rewarded a child for being adept and intelligent, but that is not healthy. (Yes, that is a fact based opinion and no further discussion should be had here.)

      The statement "Wholly fuck" is called an expletive which is intended to emphasize that the person is (therefor you are) "Absolutely Wrong!" by a large degree.

      I stand by my call. If I had mod points, and I seem to get them quite often, your post would have deservedly gotten a flamebait.

      Thankfully people that can read and comprehend English have mod points instead of you today!

      As stated previously, if you have to redefine words to make a claim then your claim is wrong! When you have to ignore more than 90% of a post to make your claim, that's even worse!

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    33. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the correction. I made a few grammatical errors and chose a wrong word. Those errors don't may my post, opinion, or the provided facts invalid.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    34. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      Wow, based on the exclamation points I must have really gotten your goat. Let's pick this apart, shall we.

      You can not tell a difference between an expletive/exclamation and an ad homimem. Here is some basic language information and instruction. This relates directly to the language you are using, and claim to be offended by. I'd suggest that you attempt to educate yourself on the English language because this is not a University and I am not paid to teach you.

      So you give people these lectures for free? That's even more pathetic.

      You claim falsely that my "Wholly fuck" and "Absolutely Wrong" are rude/rudeness/Flamebait by lumping them repeatedly into a single statement. Those are 2 separate statements, and nowhere is there a personal attack or "rudeness" in either statement.

      Most reasonable people who read the above would conclude you are an obnoxious person who lacks insight.

      I provide examples and references, so the only way you can claim "flamebait" is to ignore the majority of the post and redefine words.

      The statements "Wrong!" and "Absolutely Wrong" are statements of fact. Facts which were provided in the post and you claimed to read. If you are offended by someone being corrected you have severe psychological problems. Not that uncommon unfortunately. We have schools that reward children for being wrong because they rewarded a child for being adept and intelligent, but that is not healthy. (Yes, that is a fact based opinion and no further discussion should be had here.)

      The statement "Wholly fuck" is called an expletive which is intended to emphasize that the person is (therefor you are) "Absolutely Wrong!" by a large degree.

      I made it clear in my posts that you seem like a dumb asshole to me, so your again your passive insults are given zero weight. Don't worry, you can probably reuse them in another post.

      I stand by my call. If I had mod points, and I seem to get them quite often, your post would have deservedly gotten a flamebait.

      Thankfully people that can read and comprehend English have mod points instead of you today!

      As stated previously, if you have to redefine words to make a claim then your claim is wrong! When you have to ignore more than 90% of a post to make your claim, that's even worse!

      Honestly, its not even the language so much as the hyperbole and rampant emotionalism in your post which offends me. You don't have to end every sentence with a bang (!), you know. In fact, I've sworn at you several times, but only in a measured way. Also, it kinda irks me that you called someone out for being wrong when its you who is wrong, as I already explained.

      Next time calm yourself down and think before you reply.

      (Oh, and you'll be pleased to know I did get mod points after writing that, but obviously I will use those in another thread.)

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    35. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      So you give people these lectures for free? That's even more pathetic.

      It was not a lecture, and barely even a piece of a lesson. I have zero confidence that you have adequate eduction to understand the difference between lecture and 'basic information and instruction". It's not the only example you have provided showing you completely lack fundamental knowledge of the language you are using.

      Most reasonable people who read the above would conclude you are an obnoxious person who lacks insight.

      Actually the post was moderated "insightful" and there is no chorus of people claiming I'm anything other than beneficial with my post. You are not a chorus, you are one person who has repeatedly shown a vast amount of ignorance.

      I made it clear in my posts that you seem like a dumb asshole to me, so your again your passive insults are given zero weight. Don't worry, you can probably reuse them in another post.

      Pardon me if I don't give any weight to your opinion of me. Heaven forbid I should be offended by someone that focuses on 5 words out of 276 to make such an opinion, confuses ad hominem with exclamation, and equates "lecture" with "basic information".

      Honestly, its not even the language so much as the hyperbole and rampant emotionalism in your post which offends me. You don't have to end every sentence with a bang (!), you know. In fact, I've sworn at you several times, but only in a measured way. Also, it kinda irks me that you called someone out for being wrong when its you who is wrong, as I already explained.

      Your satisfaction and content with your own ignorance should offend you much more than I ever could. Ignorance leads to an irrational opinion. Focusing on 5 out of 276 words exemplifies both your ignorance and irrational perspective. I'm not offended or swayed by your irrational responses which demonstrate your ignorance of written English language.

      Wholly Fuck! You seem to be simply trolling. If you wish to debate the remaining 271 words of the post feel free to critique them fairly. I will warn you that you should understand other concepts of the English language, such as paragraphs and quotation marks, before doing so.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    36. Re:It's not enough by almitydave · · Score: 1

      Thank you for the correction. I made a few grammatical errors and chose a wrong word. Those errors don't may my post, opinion, or the provided facts invalid.

      I see what you did their.

      --
      my, your, his/her/its, our, your, their
      I'm, you're, he's/she's/it's, we're, you're, they're
    37. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Well read!

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    38. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      So you give people these lectures for free? That's even more pathetic.

      It was not a lecture, and barely even a piece of a lesson. I have zero confidence that you have adequate eduction to understand the difference between lecture and 'basic information and instruction". It's not the only example you have provided showing you completely lack fundamental knowledge of the language you are using.

      Well, you're clearly butthurt to be still so worked up about this.

      Most reasonable people who read the above would conclude you are an obnoxious person who lacks insight.

      Actually the post was moderated "insightful" and there is no chorus of people claiming I'm anything other than beneficial with my post. You are not a chorus, you are one person who has repeatedly shown a vast amount of ignorance.

      Three people replied to your post and none of them agreed with you. I'm still not clear on how your definition of flamebait differs so greatly from the original post that you had to shout "Holy fuck!" at them. The OP was a disgusting right-wing rant, clearly meant as flamebait.

      I made it clear in my posts that you seem like a dumb asshole to me, so your again your passive insults are given zero weight. Don't worry, you can probably reuse them in another post.

      Pardon me if I don't give any weight to your opinion of me. Heaven forbid I should be offended by someone that focuses on 5 words out of 276 to make such an opinion, confuses ad hominem with exclamation, and equates "lecture" with "basic information".

      The rest of your post was also crap.

      Honestly, its not even the language so much as the hyperbole and rampant emotionalism in your post which offends me. You don't have to end every sentence with a bang (!), you know. In fact, I've sworn at you several times, but only in a measured way. Also, it kinda irks me that you called someone out for being wrong when its you who is wrong, as I already explained.

      Your satisfaction and content with your own ignorance should offend you much more than I ever could. Ignorance leads to an irrational opinion. Focusing on 5 out of 276 words exemplifies both your ignorance and irrational perspective. I'm not offended or swayed by your irrational responses which demonstrate your ignorance of written English language.

      Wholly Fuck! You seem to be simply trolling.

      Ding, ding, ding! You finally get it! The irony of trolling someone who was arrogantly trying to lecture others on the definition of trolling was just too delicious to pass up. I'm laughing at your superior intellect, professor.

      If you wish to debate the remaining 271 words of the post feel free to critique them fairly. I will warn you that you should understand other concepts of the English language, such as paragraphs and quotation marks, before doing so.

      Well consider me fairly warned, then, professor.

      OK, enough trolling then, if you can seriously explain the following to me I'll promise to be impressed:
      a) Why is an ad hominem necessary for a post to be flamebait? You asserted this at one point, but its not in your original point or your links. Its quite possible to incite a response via flaming without specifically attacking someone. This seems to be original point you had, before your posts descended into incoherent blather.
      b) Why do you feel it isn't rude to shout 'Wholly fuck!' at people? Is this just the way you were raised? (Also, its 'holy fuck', dumbass.)

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    39. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Well, you're clearly butthurt to be still so worked up about this.

      There were no other people complaining about my post. It's terribly sad that you can not read what people write and invent your own words. That is not illiteracy, that is called delusional. Hint: One person corrected my use of "insight" instead of "incite", which I thanked them for correcting. You are lying about the other example as well, no need to continue down that path.

      Further, correcting your broken logic and demonstrating your ignorance is not being butthurt. It's an attempt to make you a better person. If you believe you should get stickers and candy for getting wrong answers, you are at the wrong school. If you had a correct answer I would congratulate you, maybe.

      a) Why is an ad hominem necessary for a post to be flamebait? You asserted this at one point, but its not in your original point or your links. Its quite possible to incite a response via flaming without specifically attacking someone. This seems to be original point you had, before your posts descended into incoherent blather.

      You failed to take the examples and definitions that explain that exact point into account, then claim those clarifying points are 'incoherent blather'. I believe you just explained your own ignorance and irrationality very well!

      b) Why do you feel it isn't rude to shout 'Wholly fuck!' at people? Is this just the way you were raised? (Also, its 'holy fuck', dumbass.)

      If I had used all capital letters it would have been considered an internet shout. As it was written it is what we in the English language call an expletive exclamation. It is not written "at" anyone because there is absolutely no direction to the statement. If you take a statement and invent your own words (as you have repeatedly done here) to assign a direction then the exclamation becomes an attack "at" someone. By your irrational position, a person posting "Damn!" is also directing that at someone. Note that your position is "irrational". No, I won't provide further word definitions because you have a tendency to not comprehend them when definitions are provided. In fact I'm skeptical that you read anything that may harm your irrational opinion.

      You are wrong on every single point you have made. I don't need to resort to ad homimen as you did calling me 'dumbass'. You have repeatedly provided your own material demonstrating your ignorance and irrationality.

      Buh bye now!

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    40. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      There were no other people complaining about my post. It's terribly sad that you can not read what people write and invent your own words. That is not illiteracy, that is called delusional. Hint: One person corrected my use of "insight" instead of "incite", which I thanked them for correcting. You are lying about the other example as well, no need to continue down that path.

      There were 3 replies to your post: mine, a second post which pointed out the irony of your post, and the one that corrected your spelling. I pointed out that no one specifically agreed with you, and you have gone into an unhinged rant arguing the negative of that, which is a logical leap. Either way it was a bad argument for you to bring up as you're essentially arguing by popularity.

      Further, correcting your broken logic and demonstrating your ignorance is not being butthurt. It's an attempt to make you a better person. If you believe you should get stickers and candy for getting wrong answers, you are at the wrong school. If you had a correct answer I would congratulate you, maybe.

      I thought this wasn't a school or a lecture. Make up your mind, man.

      If I had used all capital letters it would have been considered an internet shout. As it was written it is what we in the English language call an expletive exclamation. It is not written "at" anyone because there is absolutely no direction to the statement. If you take a statement and invent your own words (as you have repeatedly done here) to assign a direction then the exclamation becomes an attack "at" someone. By your irrational position, a person posting "Damn!" is also directing that at someone. Note that your position is "irrational". No, I won't provide further word definitions because you have a tendency to not comprehend them when definitions are provided. In fact I'm skeptical that you read anything that may harm your irrational opinion.

      Clearly you see nothing wrong with your behaviour, so I'm going to stop trying to explain it to you. Manners are neither rational nor irrational, they are a matter of social custom.

      You feel the need to keep replying, meaning that either you're enjoying this or you're neurotic. At first I was sort of hoping it was the second one, but now I realize that I've gone too far with this. This will be my last post.

      The crazy thing is that you still bit after I admitted I was trolling you...

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    41. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      If you really thought you were trolling you would have said "I was trolling dumbass!" and left. Instead you continued to defend your irrational ignorance based opinion.

      Since innocent bystanders may see your drivel and believe it's a good example, I corrected all of your easy to spot logic errors and had a bit of fun doing so. It's not often that a person continues to argue from ignorance after someone demonstrates that ignorance to them.

      I'm glad you are done responding now, and don't worry.. with proper TV exposure your brain will be back to normal in no time, and all memories of this conversation will vanish leaving you back in a state blissful ignorance.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    42. Re:It's not enough by a_mari_usque_ad_mare · · Score: 1

      Well, to be honest there was two things going on here: first was my original complaint, then came the trolling.

      Your whole problem in this thread is that you don't read people's posts, or understand what they are saying, and then you post a whole bunch of irrelevant, emotional nonsense. I called your first post flamebait, and somehow you took this as my disagreeing with your definition of flamebait. (actually Urban dictionary's defintion, since for all your blather there's remarkably little content to your posts). Actually, my complaint was that I just didn't like your tone and attitude, but all my attempts at pointing this out went right over your head. Once this got started I just felt like goading you for a response for awhile, and you cooperated admirably. If you really understand flaming or trolling as much as you think you do, you would understand the thrill of seeing someone lose their cool on the internet.

      Anyways, after awhile I started to feel bad, which is why I have dropped the insults. If you really want to keep going I'm game, but you've essentially just been calling me illogical, delusional, etc, while I insulted you for being socially retarded. There's not really anything to discuss here, so I'm ready to call it a night if you are.

      --
      The map is not the territory.
    43. Re:It's not enough by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I read your posts, and other people's posts. How else would I have been able to point out your repeated poor reasoning skills and ignorance regarding the English language? How else would I have known you were fabricating information contained in those posts to back your position? You on the other hand failed to comprehend or read (I am not sure which) 98% of my first post, and complain about the content. Then failed to read, or simply lied about, the contents of other responses to my post.

      If you really want to keep going I'm game, but you've essentially just been calling me illogical, delusional, etc, while I insulted you for being socially retarded

      I'm socially retarded because I correctly used an expletive? Seriously, you still never bothered to read anything about written language after me pointing out your ignorance? No, I'm not surprised really because the first paragraph explains exactly where you are wrong in every conceivable way. You never demonstrated how "Wholly fuck" as a statement could possibly be a personal attack, or why a different expletive would not be attack. Obviously you see me as socially retarded, because you refuse to admit that you are factually wrong!

      To the other piece of that sentence: Show me a single text book that claims ignoring facts and basing your opinion opposite of facts is not delusional, irrational, and illogical. I have at least 6 college text books on my book shelf and every one of them defines your position almost exactly as I have. You ignore the definitions of words, but if you bothered to look for those definitions you would see they also match my statements. Like this these.

      delusion
      A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

      exclamation: a sudden cry or remark, esp. expressing surprise, anger, or pain.

      explative
      a : a syllable, word, or phrase inserted to fill a vacancy (as in a sentence or a metrical line) without adding to the sense; especially : a word (as it in “make it clear which you prefer”) that occupies the position of the subject or object of a verb in normal English word order and anticipates a subsequent word or phrase that supplies the needed meaningful content
      b : an exclamatory word or phrase; especially : one that is obscene or profane

      Personal attack: see 'ad hominem'
      An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.[2] Fallacious Ad hominem reasoning is normally categorized as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely as a genetic fallacy,[6] a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.[7] Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact.
      Ad hominem arguments are the converse of appeals to authority, and may be used in response to such appeals.
      Ad hominem as it is discussed in this article refers to the logical fallacy argumentum ad hominem, and not to the literal Latin phrase ad hominem.

      Now, show me one single fact that backs your opinion that my statements "Wholly fuck!" and "Absolutely wrong!" are personal attacks without changing either statement or combining them. Don't come back without proof, your opinion thus far has been based on dishonesty and ignorance (feigned or otherwise). You won't be able to do so, but I'll look for a fact based reply.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  4. Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I and 5 others deleted Mozilla and moved to Chrome. It felt weird after all these years to not have Firefox but we voted with our feet. It's not even a gay thing, it's a "we are sick of bullies and hypocrites" thing.

    1. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by exomondo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I and 5 others deleted Mozilla and moved to Chrome. It felt weird after all these years to not have Firefox but we voted with our feet. It's not even a gay thing, it's a "we are sick of bullies and hypocrites" thing.

      But what about the LGBT employees there? The CEO was just one of the employees (and now he's gone) so the only people you're hurting are the other Mozilla employees, why are you so against them?

    2. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by jesseck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But what about the LGBT employees there? The CEO was just one of the employees (and now he's gone) so the only people you're hurting are the other Mozilla employees, why are you so against them?

      Because it is fun to bully a company into releasing their CEO. Damn three-letter executives make too much anyways - let's bully their income away with higher taxes for the rich. When we're "sick of bully's and hypocrites", we need to look into the mirror - the shit goes both ways.

      This intolerant "tolerance" policy pisses me off... have an opinion and don't be a coward to state it. I have respect for a person who states and stands by their beliefs (regardless of what they are), and doesn't change them because someone else doesn't agree. Just recognize bullying for what it is- I hate hypocrites who are tired of bullying and decide they need to start doing the same.

    3. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by OhPlz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They stood by and watched their CEO get ousted because of a donation to a cause that the majority supported. They could have championed free speech instead.

      Knowing that Mozilla is now a "social justice" organization, who would trust their software? They could be cataloging everyone's surfing habits in order to use it against them later. They deserve a backlash.

    4. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Fair enough.

    5. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by reboot246 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So, when can we expect Obama and Hillary to fall on their swords? Their position on the issue was exactly the same as Eich's at the time he gave his donation.

      Oh, that's right. They couldn't possibly be hypocrites - they're Democrats. Yeah, sure.

    6. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by roca · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We did not "stand by and watch". Many Mozilla staff made public statements supporting Brendan as CEO, including (courageously) many LGBT Mozilla staff. Many more publicly supported Brendan than publicly opposed him. The media of course focused on his opponents because "Mozilla employees call for CEO to step down" gets more clicks than "Mozilla employees support CEO".

      Maybe we could have done more. At the time the firestorm was hot enough that it was unclear whether speaking out (and what sort of speaking out) would help. Brendan's resignation came as a great surprise to almost everyone at Mozilla, including me, and up to then I honestly thought simply saying nothing and letting the controversy blow itself out was going to work and was the best course of action.

      To all the people who are shouting about "free speech" now: did you speak up to support Mozilla while we were defending Brendan as CEO? If not, why are you more enthusiastic about bashing us now than you were about supporting us back then?

    7. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by OhPlz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Step back and see the bigger picture, will you? Mozilla has a lot of power in that their browser is used by a whole lot of people. Is that a group that should take sides on political issues? Protecting free speech should be their absolute number one priority. No one wants a web browser or mail reader that has ideologues controlling it. Would you use a web browser pushed by the NSA?

      It's true what you say about free speech, and it does have consequences. Chrome got a lot of new users out of this, ironically. Ousting a CEO for one donation many years ago when even the President of the USofA believed the same at the time is a bit absurd. You raise an interesting point too. He was fired over information that should never have been released. That just makes it that much worse.

      Think about the shoe on the other foot. What if companies started firing people for donating to some issue you care deeply for? Prop 8 is a side show here. This could have been about any issue, left or right. I'm not in favor of going after people in the workplace for what they believe in their personal life. If he was supporting NAMBLA, that's one thing. But this is a contentious issue, one of many. We need conversation, not condemnation. Forcing silence for fear of losing one's profession is horrible. That's not American.

    8. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      I'm sure a lot of us didn't even know about this until he was ousted. I would have supported you (at least here in posts) then had I known about this at the time.

      If what you say is true, it's interesting. I haven't heard that anywhere else.

    9. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by BZ · · Score: 4, Informative

      It's absolutely true. There were a bunch of blog posts by Mozilla employees supporting Brendan as CEO (even though many disagreed with his position on Prop 8), all completely ignored by the media. Looking at the relevant date range on http://planet.mozilla.org/ should find them...

    10. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      You're still framing this as a prop 8 issue. It's not. This has to do with people's private lives versus their public lives. I don't want my employer invading my life beyond the workplace, and I believe we all have a right to separate our personal lives from our work lives. I also think that anonymity plays an import role in a democracy. If people can't speak or donate or act for fear of their livelihoods, what good is free speech? Even the founders used pseudonyms before the revolution. There may not have been one otherwise.

      I'm also concerned about these data breaches. A list of gun owners was leaked, and all hell broke loose. Lists of donors were released, this happened. What next? Planned Parenthood customers? GOP voters? Names of patients with terminal or expensive-to-treat illnesses? Actions and consequences. Is hope and change now accomplished by targeting individuals for destruction? Sounds good until the horde comes for you. And I say that as the non-anonymous party in this back-and-forth.

      We should be better than this.

    11. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by aristotle-dude · · Score: 1

      I and 5 others deleted Mozilla and moved to Chrome. It felt weird after all these years to not have Firefox but we voted with our feet. It's not even a gay thing, it's a "we are sick of bullies and hypocrites" thing.

      But what about the LGBT employees there? The CEO was just one of the employees (and now he's gone) so the only people you're hurting are the other Mozilla employees, why are you so against them?

      Their sexual orientation is relevant how? It justifies their intolerance how?

      --
      Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
    12. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by narcc · · Score: 1

      By his own actions he revealed himself to be an extremist.

      Donating money to a cause makes you an extremist?

      I must be on the top of one crazy watch list.

    13. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      It's not like people on /. use their real names anyway

      I do, just so I can call people cowards when I run out of arguments ^^

    14. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      And it's a very bad thing that his contributions to Prop 8 were known, because those types of things are supposed to be kept private and we should all want them to be kept private. But since they were revealed, there's no way in hell he should have been offered the role of CEO of Mozilla. Once you learn someone is an A-hole, you have the right to decide if he/she/it should be the leader of a volunteer-based organization.

      BZZT! Wrong. All political contributions should be publicly available for all to see. As a society, we should be able to know who voted with their wallets and to what purpose. We have that to a certain extent, but 501(c)3s and their ilk (as well as any other players attempting to affect elections) should be forced to publicly disclose all of their donors and the amounts contributed, just as candidates do.

      Blowing my mod points on this thread because you need schooling, friend.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    15. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by roca · · Score: 1

      Certainly, in hindsight, it was a mistake to promote Brendan to CEO. But without hindsight, very few people can honestly say they saw this coming. Before this blew up, no-one was openly saying "OK, no-one on the pro-Prop-8 donation list can be a CEO in California now unless they publicly repent or the company is willing to take major damage". In fact AFAICT a large majority of people, even in California, were surprised and somewhat horrified to find out that's the case.

    16. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by markass530 · · Score: 1

      Eich's free speech was never infringed

    17. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by roca · · Score: 1

      Funny, as a Mozilla employee I feel much more bullied --- by both sides of the culture war --- than bullying.

      It feels like someone smacked us in the side of the head, we fell over, and then someone else came along shouting "weaklings!" and kicked us on the ground.

    18. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      You raise an interesting point too. He was fired over information that should never have been released. That just makes it that much worse.

      It makes the topic difficult, and it annoys the crap out of me that the info was revealed, and it annoys me that no one seems to care that this type of information should never be revealed. Democracy depends on it not being revealed. But... since it has been revealed, it's not like it can just be ignored.

      Wrong. Your vote is supposed to be secret, not your political contributions. The FEC (and the laws of the various states) requires that candidates, political parties, PACs and certain other political organizations report the source and amount of each donation received. That information is then published and is publicly available.

      Democracy depends on free discourse, a vigorous and *free* press, free and fair elections and a host of other things. It does not depend on secret campaign donations.. When we don't know who is paying for all those TV ads and rallies, etc. that can give undue influence to players we don't even know exist.

      In fact, the law should be changed to force such reporting from 501(c)3's and similar organizations that currently do not need to file such reports, IMHO

      Given the enormous amounts of money thrown into political campaigns, we should know where that money is coming from -- giving us more information about the supporters of issues and candidates.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    19. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The reason the CEO gets big bucks is because he is one of the most public facing parts of the company. Regardless of the reason why it was clear that he couldn't perform that role well because of all the personal criticism he was receiving. People are of course free to speak their minds and state their opinions, but in his case their opinions of him made his position untenable and the only way to fix that would have been a massive censorship campaign to clamp down on all opposing speech.

      He chose to do what he did, and must live with the consequences. Free speech is not freedom from consequences.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The problem is that in order for people who do a public facing job where their personal reputation and popularity affects the company's fortunes to have free speech without consequences everyone else would have to be forced to support the company no matter what. Boycotts could be made illegal, but how would you stop people uninstalling Firefox after his appointment?

      Like it or not personalities matter when it comes to CEOs. Remember all the personal hate for Bill Gates and the way he acted at Microsoft? All the love/hate for Steve Jobs, who arguably was responsible for much of Apple's success due to his strong personality, his outspoken views and "reality distortion field". There have been endless cases where people paid to advertise a product have been dropped over things they did or said, because their actions tarnish the advertiser too. At least in the case of a CEO they have some involvement in the thing being tarnished and aren't just a pretty face.

      I agree that leaks are worrying, but in this case I'd argue that donations to political campaigns should be public. If someone without money to spare wants to endorse or promote a cause they have to speak, revealing their position. Just because you can afford to give up $1000 shouldn't excuse you from that responsibility. Yes, you are free to say what you want, but you are never free from the consequences.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by jesseck · · Score: 1

      In regards to his personal and political beliefs, those should not (but probably will) have a bearing on how he leads a company. We don't need a bunch of crowd-pleasing politicians, saying whatever people want to hear, to lead. Mozilla has just shown itself as willing to cave to any demand, and demonstrated its inability to support its employees. Similar to Benghazi (different subject, same concept) - the US Government, regardless who is "at fault", stood by while an Ambassador and CIA Operators were killed without assisting in a meaningful way. So, too, has Mozilla stood by while an employee became a casualty of their personal beliefs. There will be a next time that someone else at Mozilla (or a similar company) is expected to "take one for the team" because of their personal beliefs.

      In regards to his choice and consequences, yes, I agree. We can say whatever we want, but there are consequences to every action.

    22. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      The problem is that in order for people who do a public facing job where their personal reputation and popularity affects the company's fortunes to have free speech without consequences everyone else would have to be forced to support the company no matter what. Boycotts could be made illegal, but how would you stop people uninstalling Firefox after his appointment?

      Why do you think laws are necessary? In this case, it's already illegal in that state to fire someone for political donations. Yes, murky, he "stepped down". I'm suggesting that we as a people do better. I'm sure if someone were to dig, we could find something on most people that others could take offense to. None of us are innocent.

      The CEO distinction doesn't do much for me. I get what you're saying, but it still had nothing to do with his role at Mozilla. Do you want the best person for the job or the one that's not as qualified but is more "socially acceptable"?

      I agree that leaks are worrying, but in this case I'd argue that donations to political campaigns should be public. If someone without money to spare wants to endorse or promote a cause they have to speak, revealing their position.

      Democracy can't happen with a gun pointed at you. Labor unions already target those that don't vote "with" them. I really don't want them having people's addresses.

    23. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      let's bully their income away with higher taxes for the rich.

      I believe the rich should pay their fair share, and that fair share is precisely 18%.

      In 2012, if we taxed everyone a flat 18% UBI tax--eliminating Social Security (and its 7.5% tax), government pensions, food stamps, housing assistance, welfare checks, unemployment, etc. but not medicaid--we would have drawn enough money to pay everyone over the age of 18 $10,000 per year. In practice, a transition to this system would be slow and cautious, due to the social contracts of social security and government pensions--I can accelerate this, but it's very tricky (you have to give them 100% of what they've been promised).

      Such a tax would be lower than our welfare taxes--25% +/- 1.5% of personal income supports welfare benefits, not including administrative costs of these services. As it's bound to personal income, an ever-shrinking middle class would not break this system: the rich get richer, but we're still taxing that 18% whether more of it is going to the middle class or to the rich upper class. Because poor people have predictable income and rich people are greedy, capitalist greed will spawn all kinds of housing solutions to create a really shitty but livable life with access to housing and food on just UBI income: life will suck if you're broke and unemployed, but nobody will go homeless and hungry under this system.

      As UBI is unconditional, getting a job doesn't revoke it like SSI, unemployment, or other welfare--a job is always a net gain in cash. Unemployment at $430/wk here means a $12/hr job nets you $50/wk more, making it roughly a $1.25/hr job in reality. With UBI, you would still collect your UBI. Because of this, we can eliminate minimum wage: if you don't want to work for $1.25/hr, hold out for better; you're probably not that desperate.

      In short: we should tax the rich. We should tax everyone. We should create a tax that replaces all of the taxes collected for welfare with a single categorized tax (like OASDI) devoted to collecting the tax for each successive year. That money is divvied up and passed around to everyone of the age of majority. It should not be 92%; it should be 18%, and it should never increase because inflation and greater economic activity already increase the payout. If it's not enough, the economy is collapsing and there is nothing you can do about it.

    24. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 2

      Why would it be different if he supported NAMBLA? Our puritan values are such that we believe it is somehow harmless for small children--hell, teens up to 17--to know about sexual activity. Because Jesus. Or something. Maybe in 100 years we'll reverse on that. Remember that in some cultures they still have pornography in the open--in Germany, children play outside of pornography shops with explicit sex images on display in their view. In Japan it was legal for 13 year olds to appear in pornography, but the US put pressure on them to take an official stance against this.

      In Florida, they tried--and failed--to pass a bill banning sex with animals. Are we going to do the same with people for/against sex with animals being made illegal? Which side in this is right, and why are they right?

      I continue to assert two major considerations for gay marriage laws. First, gay marriage has many societal impacts, from tax implications to the social impacts of exposing children to the greater acceptance of gays and to visible gay behavior, which is deviant (i.e. not of the majority) and automatically draws attention to what is ultimately sexual behavior. Second, some people may not have problems with gays individually, yet may decide that the legitimization of gay marriage would lead to some of the aforementioned implications (real or imaginary) and that these societal changes are harmful to society, and thus may oppose gay marriage directly on the grounds of doing what is morally right for society to prevent harm.

      I get all kinds of push back for this, mostly from people skipping most of the reasoning and cherry picking, or asserting that these people are wrong and thus they're simple bigots because they can't believe that a societal change is potentially harmful while bearing no ill will toward certain people who would benefit from, prefer, or otherwise be connected to said societal change. Of course bigotry is irrational hatred toward a person for their beliefs or behavior or physical attributes, not earnest belief that a certain societal change is harmful; but people like to use a different language and pretend it's English when discussing people they hate, as it lets them exercise their own bigotry while claiming they're not bigots.

    25. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It is rather horrifying. A lot of my political positions are volatile. Basic income is a paradigm shift on the welfare system, because our welfare system is broken. Social welfare is effectively "Steal from the rich, give to the poor", and our unemployment and housing assistance and food stamps programs do exactly that. Unconditional Basic Income throws all that out, stamps a tax number down (18% in this case), taxes that much money from everyone's income, and divvies it up between everyone over 18 (this is specialized to my vision--UBI is just basically "Give everyone X amount of money").

      That can easily get me branded a socialist. Imagine that kind of publicity. Can you imagine the jobs I'd get denied? Just for trying to refactor our current broken system into a new system that does the same thing, but more effectively, and at a lesser cost to the tax payer (the poor, the wealthy, and the businesses), and with better durability, and without creating an inescapable welfare trap in which attempting to get a job is extremely dangerous and could destroy your life.

      Imagine the headline: "New Mozilla CEO Favors Wealth Redistribution: Popular browser vendor appoints Marxist to run business operations, hypocrite still makes $2M salary".

    26. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Donating more money than a poor person has does. Like, if you have billions of dollars, and you reach in your pocket and throw whatever change you have on hand from the vending machine--some $20,000 it cashed out when you broke a $100,000 on a gold-plated packet of caviar Fritos--to the Salvation Army, you are supporting an anti-gay religious organization and are a hyperextremist Nazi.

    27. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      I don't think I agree, but I admit I may be wrong. I'm very sure that it would be very bad to have to disclose how you vote. But with regards to monetary contributions to a Proposition ballot advocacy group, I'll have to think about it more. I do think it's proper to disclose contributions to nominees running for office, but I feel that way because it represents influence the donor has on the candidate, not because the candidate then spent money on advertising. And if PAC contributions weren't disclosed, that would just be a glaring loophole for candidate contributions through a middle-man.

      But a $1000 donation to a Proposition group? I don't know. I agree there's a problem if someone wealthy can donate $1 Million, but a small monetary contribution feels more like a donate-to-your-cause type thing than try-to-influence-others type thing. On the other hand, you're right that ultimately it's spent on trying to influence other people, and that should not be done with secret backers. So maybe you're right and I'm wrong.

      (I'm the AC you responded to)

      Ballots are supposed to be secret, yes. However, campaign contributions are highly regulated (both federally via the Federal Elections Commission and in most states.

      In California, campaign contributions (including donor names) are reported to the California Secretary of State. This link will take you directly to the reporting for Prop 8.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    28. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      I agree that leaks are worrying, but in this case I'd argue that donations to political campaigns should be public. If someone without money to spare wants to endorse or promote a cause they have to speak, revealing their position. Just because you can afford to give up $1000 shouldn't excuse you from that responsibility. Yes, you are free to say what you want, but you are never free from the consequences.

      Leaks? You mean leaked from the publicly available, state mandated, campaign donation reporting database? Which, we both agree is a good thing.

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    29. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by Terry95 · · Score: 1

      So, Mozilla is just like the country that spawned it: A hypocrite and a bully that does not have the approval of it's constituents/employees. That seems all too believable.

    30. Re:Fantastic Google Chrome marketing by exomondo · · Score: 1

      It doesn't, I'm wondering whether the boycott was due to to Eich or the behavior of the employees who had him ousted. Like for example OKCupid's boycott was just silliness as it was directed at Eich but obviously affected both him (the prop 8 proponent) and the employees who were prop 8 opponents.

  5. Sadly, sounds like I was right by _xeno_ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In one of the earlier Eich threads, I speculated that he was kicked out less because of his former gay marriage-related politics (he did, after all, indicate he wouldn't change Mozilla's LGBT-related policies) and more because the board wanted someone who could better monetize Mozilla. Don't forget, the board members that quit over Eich's appointment didn't quit due to the LGBT nonsense, they quit because they wanted someone "outside the organization who could provide a new business strategy."

    With this new appointment, it sounds like I was right: Eich was kicked out not over the Twitter whine-storm, but due to internal politics that want to see Mozilla turned into a money-making "product."

    Losing Eich is going to be the worst thing to ever happen to Mozilla, mark my words.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    1. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      It's open source, I can feel the fork coming.

    2. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Sadly that's windows only. Looks like a nice project though.

    3. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by roca · · Score: 1

      That is totally absurd. If the board didn't want Brendan to be CEO, they wouldn't have appointed him in the first place!

      The evidence is clear that the board, and almost everyone else at Mozilla, wanted Brendan as CEO. Then came the protests, the social media firestorm, and the boycotts, and he stepped down (and was not "kicked out").

      If you believe differently from what's indicated by the observable facts and official statements, produce some evidence. No-one has so far.

    4. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      Ah baloney.

      Eich was tossed because he handled the controversy like he had aspergers. Those interviews he gave were cringe worthy. CEO's absolutely have to be politicians, they have to be able to handle bad situations in a manner that improves the problem not makes it worse. They can't get asked a question then provide an answer that makes it seem even worse than the initial impression. Even when handed a shit question in an ambush situation they need to be able to dance the discussion, not make it any worse while appearing to look like they answered the question. Eich clearly couldn't do that.

      As far as the board members that quit I believe they did so because they didn't like Eich, not because of any stupid money issues. The board of directors are basically quasi bosses for a CEO, they hire the CEO, have ability to fire him with a majority, they can influence policy but the CEO has final say. If the board the CEO don't get along, it's like being in a bad marriage.

    5. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In March Brendan Eich seemed excited to lead Mozilla, and stated his hope that everyone can move past personal politics and opinion for the greater good-.

      In early April and after the firestorm & boycotts, Brendan Eich was no longer CEO.

      Saying he was not coerced is like having someone suggest you sign your life possessions away while pointing a gun to your head, all the while insisting they were only being persuasive.

      Fuck that. The LBGT community and the PC police are not getting a free pass on this one.

    6. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Losing Eich is going to be the worst thing to ever happen to Mozilla, mark my words.

      How is losing someone that thinks 20% of his employees are subhuman not a good thing? He hates his gay employees. He publicly admitted he is a Nazi that wants to steal their rights. He gave money to a cause that attacks them. Unless you are one of them, how can you defend his kind? Hopefully it won't be that many decades before society has progressed enough to put your kind behind bars to protect the rest of us from your intolerance.

      20%? Got a citation for that, or just wishful thinking?

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    7. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by roca · · Score: 1

      I said he was not coerced or pushed out *by Mozilla*. No way does that imply a free pass to the lobby groups that hounded him out of the job.

    8. Re:Sadly, sounds like I was right by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      This. Absolutely this. Finally someone gets it!

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  6. qualifications by fche · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One wonders whether Mr. Beard had to do a lie detector run to prove his loyalty the cause(s) du jour.

    1. Re:qualifications by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      "Who wants a mustache ride!?"

  7. Lets organize a boycott .. by DTentilhao · · Score: 1

    Now that it's become the norm for getting people fired for holding opposing views to yerself, how about organising a boycott of the following individuals: Chloe Valerlidi, Chris McAvoy, Christie Koehler, Jessica Klein, Jess Klein, John Bevan, Sydney Moyer (ref) or failing that having them locked in a room and made listen to Alex Jones for ever.

    1. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I haven't weighed in on the Eich thing yet because I couldn't quite put my finger on what exactly was giving me an uncomfortableness about it. I support gay marriage, I'd question why anyone would be insane enough to actually want to get married, but if they want it why not.

      What burns about the whole affair is that the relevant parties had their say, the people voted, and that should be that. Instead we've got vengeance seeking from those in favour of gay marriage, making lists, hunting people down and persecuting them by whatever means are available. In other words, McCarthyism.

      Fuck that.

    2. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by roca · · Score: 1

      Jessica Klein and Jess Klein are the same person.

      Christie Koehler doesn't belong on your list. She early and publicly supported Brendan as CEO --- a stand that made her quite unpopular with a segment of her LGBT community. She deserves great praise.

    3. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by BZ · · Score: 1

      Uh.... Christie Koehler explicitly said she thought Brendan would do a good job as CEO. So I'm a bit confused about why you're lumping her into your list.

    4. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by roca · · Score: 2

      As CTO, co-founder, and linchpin of Mozilla for all 16 years of its existence, not to mention creator of Javascript, Brendan was already as "public face" and "guiding force" as he was going to be as CEO. That's what bugs me about the whole "public face" argument.

    5. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      Because this is a witch-hunt by people who think the Eich thing was a witch-hunt and not about a CEO being appointed who had demonstrated appalling interpersonal skills.

      Witch-hunts tend to get the wrong people.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    6. Re:Lets organize a boycott .. by BZ · · Score: 1

      Just to be clear, I think the Eich thing was a witch-hunt. As is the counter-witch-hunt.

  8. Re: "Flamebait" mod .. by DTentilhao · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Congress needs to establish a commission of inquiry to help us identify people who don't agree with gay marriage"

    And we also need to identify people with no sense of humour ..

  9. Many, many ways by cbhacking · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You distort facts to imply that they mean something other than what they mean, then act like you expect us to believe your "interpretation". For example, I don't really care what the Democratic party claims - I don't vote any party's line (nor do I support Obama generally speaking, except by comparison to some), and I look at voting records instead of claimed positions - but I doubt you'll find many on either side of the aisle who disagree with the claim that they support the constitution. The constitution explicitly gives the Judicial branch the ability to do what it did to Proposition 8 (overturn it on the basis of higher law). This is to prevent the tyranny of the majority over a disliked minority group, which is one of the obvious failures of a pure democracy. As for "activist judges", you do realize that 5 of the 9 current justices were Republican presidential nominations, right?

    Oh, and lots of people who call themselves "orthodox" or "fundamentalist" members of the religions you listed are fine with gay marriage. *Your* view might be that this is inherently contradictory, but their view is that however unrighteous those people are is a matter between them and God but secular law should be fair to all, or that a God of love would not turn His back on somebody on account of who they love, or any of many other arguments. You will probably find many more such people like that than you will find people who believe that the wrathful or gluttonous are nearly so bad, and that (heterosexual) adulterers deserve death. As such, it is quite obvious that religious folk can go about their daily lives without trying to enforce their religious beliefs on others. If you personally cannot, that is a failure of you personally, not of society or even of religion.

    Oh, and the bit about tolerance? You really didn't think that part through, did you... it's about creating a tolerant society, not about personally tolerating everything. You present a false dichotomy: tolerate everything including intolerance, or don't be "about tolerance". Try this thought on for size: "we advocate tolerance towards every individual's nature, but oppose those who choose to be intolerant of the nature of others." It may help some people to think of it as advocating tolerance towards the ways in which God created us, and opposing those who are intolerant of some of God's creations. After all, sin is supposed to be about (making the wrong) choice, right? Are we not innocent and pure, until we choose to be otherwise? Well, religious belief is a choice. Sexual orientation is not.

    Finally, there's the fact that you cite Fox News, which is just stupid around here. Even assuming that the story was both accurate and unbiased (having read both sides, Fox's account is generally the first but far from the second), that's just asking for trouble. The stories were widely reported; you can find better sources than that.

    For the first story, Emmanuel is, to the best of my knowledge (though IANAL), not allowed to deny or revoke business licenses on the grounds of an implied intention to discriminate; an actual act of discrimination or at least a policy requiring it would be required first.

    For the second story, that's straightforward: if you run a business open to the public, you are not permitted to discriminate against certain classes of people and refuse them service. This has probably been law since before you were born, in the case of racial discrimination (incidentally, at least one religion in the US held that black skin was the "mark of Cain" and thus they were justified in refusing to interact with them) and for that matter in the case of religion (which, unlike skin color or sexual orientation, is a matter of choice) or several other classifications. Oregon had simply expanded the list of classes against which a public business may not discriminate to include sexual orientation. If "Sweet Cakes by Melissa" had in fact been a Christian bakery - that is, a religious entity only open to Christians - they would probably have won thei

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    1. Re:Many, many ways by sideslash · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the long and cogent response. We will agree on some things and disagree on others, but I genuinely appreciate your engagement here. Cheers!

    2. Re:Many, many ways by TrollstonButterbeans · · Score: 1

      Dude ... whatever that overly long diatribe was about, I'm sure it has fuck-all to do with a free web browser.

      Get a grip, a freebie web browser isn't the same of a can of tuna with dolphin meat in it or whatever screed you wrote a baby-bible over.

      --
      Priest: "Universe from nothing, no laws of physics, sped up time"+ huge discrepancies. Creationism? No. Big Bang Theory
    3. Re:Many, many ways by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It may help some people to think of it as advocating tolerance towards the ways in which God created us, and opposing those who are intolerant of some of God's creations. After all, sin is supposed to be about (making the wrong) choice, right?

      What about people who are born intolerant? (if you don't think kids are intolerant, go watch a baby day-care sometime. They can be extremely insensitive, hitting each other and laughing and stuff).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  10. Re:No more. by narcc · · Score: 1

    Why? No one cares. You won't be missed.