California Utility May Replace IT Workers with H-1B Workers

dcblogs writes: "Southern California Edison is preparing to offshore IT jobs, the second major U.S. utility in the last year to do so. It will be cutting its staff, but it hasn't said by how much. The utility is using at least two offshore outsourcing firms, according to government records. SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers. Following a workplace shooting in SCE's IT offices in 2011, the utility conducted an independent audit of its organizational and management culture. One observation in this report, which was completed a year later, was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'"

Comments

Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[HaeMaker]

If you are "offshoring" you are literally having the work performed off-shore. If they fear their jobs are getting replaced by H1-Bs, then they are "outsourcing". It would be illegal for them to fire everyone then hire H1-Bs, and even if the off-shore companies place people that all happen to be H1-B, lawsuits will follow. How can the consulting company say they couldn't find competent employees when they know a bunch that got laid-off?

Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers.

[pixelpusher220]

As an interesting aside, should 'utilities' providing critical infrastructure be subject to more stringent hiring requirements?

Similar to how national security jobs require a gov't clearance, should workers on critical infrastructure require similar concept of vetting?

IMPOSSIBLE

[Billly Gates]

H1B1 Visa's are only because there are not enough applicants to fill a position. Just ask any republican and they will tell you and set the facts straight in interest of protecting the workers.

It is illegal not to pay an H1B1 Visa worker less than a qualified worker. It is stated so it must be true!

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the race to the bottom has began, and I doubt it will end until we hit it. If it is cheaper to pay someone else to do the job, be it in another state, another country, or simply to ship in the workers they are going to do it, and if they can't do it, they will try to move the job itself to that other country or other state. Heck if they are just moving jobs to other states they can just call it a reorg and not even get any bad press about it, even though the key purpose was to surplus all those pesky highly paid workers who had devoted much of their lives to a particular company. The guys in charge are betting they can improve the balance sheet while they are there, then get a nice bonus for it, and if it all falls apart later, well they are likely gone or retired by then, so its not their problem.

Sure you could setup sane rules to minimize it, but it is not easy, or at least the politicians make it more difficult than it needs to be. For instance, if the country that your buying all this stuff from has poor environmental laws, well then that country is basically not charging what is required to clean up their own mess, so the logical thing to do is to tarrif it in a measured way so at least society can somewhat deal with the mess later, or at the very least make the playing field a touch more level. At any rate, the reason the United States can't compete with manufacturing/labor/etc is as much as anything about the unlevel playing field. We find rules about safe working conditions and pollution to be a good thing, but hapilly ignore that others are less concerned with such things if we can buy a $200 television.

The other common thing about jobs these days is companies have little loyalty to their employees, so of course their employees have little loyalty to the company either. This leads to companies always asking for employees that are tailor fit for a very obscure job, which of course they often can't find, since that job may be brand new and short term. So the company does a token search, fails to find the non existent expert on widget series 12 when combined with gear series 13 and 20 years experience with the new fad computer language that has only been out five, and of course concludes that it is H-1B time. Sure the employee may be even less skilled than those that were actually available, but hey he or she is cheap and leashed directly to the company of interest so they will spend some effort training him or her. Perhaps in the end they saved no actual money due to all the project delays, but they did save money on paper initially, and that is what is most important.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[ebno-10db]

Go a few miles outside the cities and it is mostly Republican.

Nevertheless CA is primarily a blue state. I'm not sticking up for the R's here - just pointing out that with many issues the D's are also busy screwing Americans. The D's whore for money too, and much of theirs comes from the tech industry. One of the few people in congress to oppose some of this H-1B crap is Chuck Grassley, who's an R.

Re:IMPOSSIBLE

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there were organized groups of laborers that were able to band together to protect each others rights.

Tech workers only?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

Re:Tech workers only?

[WillAffleckUW]

Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

No, there is a growing move to outsource Lawyer jobs too.

H-1B or offshore?

[qbzzt]

If you offshore a position, it is in India (for example) and you don't need an H1-B visa.

Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[Virtucon]

This is an outrage! Companies outsourcing jobs overseas! Management is concerned about perception rather than substance!

What fucking decade are we living in here folks?!? This isn't news but it is confirmation that US companies are full of douche bags.

Good luck with that

[Anonymous Coward]

Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well? I sure haven't. Communication issues, poor worker training and expertise, high turnover. The 'savings' look good on paper, but in the end it's a disaster.

Re:Good luck with that

[pixelpusher220]

Worked well enough for my Dad at Xerox. Granted he got laid off for a couple years but got rehired when it went to shit and got quite the hefty raise and extra retirement out of the deal :)

Not a plan I'd recommend obviously, but hey :)

Tata!

[QilessQi]

Northeast Utilities, last fall, announced it was outsourcing part of its IT operations to Infosys and another Indian-based IT services giant, Tata Consultancy Services.

I'm sure they were the breast candidate for the task.

So what they're really saying.

[rmdingler]

Southern California Edison has collectively determined that it is impossible to change the work atmosphere from the top down,

so they'll be needing to import some workers who are better suited to the type of shop they run:

Work the hands like a rented mule.

Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!?

[gandhi_2]

The labor market is a market. They have labor to supply.
Borders don't keep the jobs in any more than they keep people out.

Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[bobbied]

First, we lost manufacturing jobs.... Then the engineering jobs started going off shore. So why are we surprised when the IT jobs do too?

I feel for the youngsters coming out of college with a STEM degree these days. Huge student loan debt and fewer and fewer prospects..

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[stenvar]

It's a myth that manufacturing in the US is on the decline; it simply has become smaller relative to other sectors, but in absolute terms, it's been growing.

Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues..

[matthewv789]

Manufacturing may be, but what about manufacturing EMPLOYMENT? When you use robots and automation, there aren't so many employees.

And it may look large because US manufacturing is focused on large-ticket items, like aircraft and rockets and tanks. It's still the case that 99% of the routine goods that you buy (whether clothes or household items or toys or electronics) are made in China.

This needs to be Illegal

[l0ungeb0y]

Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations of it's Infrastructure to Foreign Entities -- doing so opens up the possibility of access being given to enemies of the US or US-based interests by employees of the IT company or by the IT company itself if it comes under the influence or control of enemies of the US.

The ability to fuck with the infrastructure providing power to all of Southern California is a capability no one should be able to hand over to foreign nationals. The Federal Government needs to shove their foot right up the collective asses of Cal Eds Senior Management and Board.

Re:This needs to be Illegal

[ebno-10db]

Nice try at a slur. There is nothing new, unusual, un-Constitutional or unreasonable about requiring that vital functions in the US be performed by US based entities.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[byteherder]

A H-1B worker is a worker on a temporary work visa in the U.S. They are usually IT workers.

Company bring them in claiming they cannot find 'qualified' U.S. worker but really do it just to hire cheaper foreign labor.

Unions

[rsilvergun]

Organization (via Unions) is the only solution I can think of to this. Sure, we could call it something else, but it's basically Unions.

Un-Organized workers are too weak to demand or get better wages or a better way of life. Life basically stunk for everyone but a few kings thousands of years. It still stinks if you're not in one of the countries with a strong, well organized pool of labor that has solidarity. Sure, a few on /. might "Got Mine, FU" right now. But the powers that be are coming for you too....

Combination of both

[Jmstuckman]

According to the article, they are outsourcing the work to an offshore IT firm. This IT firm, in turn, will give the work to a US location, which staffs itself with H-1B workers. The effect is that US-based workers are being laid off and indirectly replaced with H-1Bs.

Re:Combination of both

[ebno-10db]

Which is exactly why an Indian commerce minister referred to the H-1B as the "outsourcing visa". It's not an either/or situation - the H-1B visa helps enable outsourcing/offshoring.

Re:Combination of both

[Hamsterdan]

Shouldn't that be illegal?

Re:Combination of both

[anubi]

Shouldn't that be illegal?

Depends

If you are a college graduate who has invested tens of thousands of dollars into education and is expecting a return on that investment, if some businessman can get those skills cheaper overseas, its just good business.

If you are some business who has invested tens of thousands of dollars developing some product and is expecting a return on that investment and someone can bypass that and simply download the work from an overseas server, that is copyright violation, violation of patent, or some other way of saying "theft" and is verboten.

It just depends on how big you are and your relationship with the government on whether this action demonstrates "good business skills" or is considered "theft". Its really a fine line; I often cannot tell which side of it to be on myself, as I know that the game is rigged, and trying to be an honest player is a sure way to lose.

My personal ethics and the reality of my environment are usually at odds with each other big-time on these issues, which is why I have done my damndest to "drop out" of it. Doing science is what I feel I was borned to do, but putting up with the politics of the management classes goes against damned near everything I hold true.

So H-1B or offshore???

[iamacat]

That would be completely different things with very different consequences. H-1B is a Visa to work in US, so jobs would not be offshored, just outsourced to a contractor (article mentions Infosys). Employees will be still paying taxes, and salaries can not be that low as they incur living expenses similar to US citizens. Added difficulty of changing jobs while on a visa does depress wages to some degree, but IT workers generally expect to live well.

Offshoring of course means no tax revenue for US and much lower living standards and expenses, so low salaries that US residents can not accept without starving.

It's unfortunate that the article doesn't make clear exactly what is happening.

Re:The King of 18th Century England Called

[cyber-vandal]

I have to pay my mortgage now. I can't afford to wait for your utopia.

message to you globalization scum:

[c5402dc53929211e1efb]

I'll support globalization the day I'm free to move to and work in any country I choose.

Re:message to you globalization scum:

[rk]

Until that day comes, I will refer to globalization with a more accurate name: "neo-feudalism".

What benefits?

[rsilvergun]

Free trade is great if you're a rich capitalist (e.g. someone that makes their living by owning capital). What about the rest of us? There's plenty of evidence to show NAFTA has been a disaster for everyone on both sides of the boarder except a few wealthy factory owners. Google a little and you won't find much to encourage you.

Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom, but all anyone can remember about him is that a couple famous dictators happen to use his books for their rhetoric. Not that it's hard to predict that.

Re:What benefits?

[khallow]

The huge world out there that isn't already part of the developed world is doing well.

Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom

One of the many things he missed is that it raises the bottom greatly in the process.

Dilbert is Real

[Tablizer]

SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers...One observation in this report...was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates.

PHB1: "This survey shows our employees think we in management are clueless superficial jerks. What do we do about it?"

PHB2: "I got it! Fire them all and outsource their work to new people who don't yet know we are clueless superficial jerks."

PHB1: "Brilliant! Let's vote ourselves a raise for this plan!"

Replace manangement first....

[Lumpy]

H1B's can do the managements job a Lot better and a lot cheaper. There is far more savings in replacing everyone at the manager level and up.

BSABSVR

[L. J. Beauregard]

Deportations have continued apace under Obama.

Of course we'll never get them all, because the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment doesn't have enough manpower. So if you want to round up that last illegal, fine.

Increase the size and funding of the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment about tenfold.

Swarm this land with goons to grab hold of anyone who looks a little brown, ask him "Sus papeles, por favor", and beat the mierda out of him when he answers in English.

And you can STFU about Big Government and you can STFU about the taxes needed to pay for it all.

Or we can slap some fines on the companies that hire illegals, or that illegally hire H1Bs instead of Americans. But no, that'll never happen, because Job Creators.

LOL. Lessons from target not learned

[WindBourne]

First, one of Target's HVAC guy lost an ID. BUT, target has NOT found that the ID was used to get in there and that was the entry point.

Yet, the one thing that amazes me, is that they totally ignore the fact that not only did Target offshore a great deal, but esp. their production was offshored.
And this was the group that is paying their Indian software engineers, about $7-9K/year (India, like china, plays games with their money against the dollar). How easy is it to offer somebody say 70K to simply open a port, or to leave a back door, etc, and NOT have it be found? Keep in mind that $70K in India, with the current rupee money, is a 10 year salary. You can quietly leave target, get another job elsewhere and have your retirement fully taken care of.
Yes, one group said that something was going on, but the group in India that was dealing with Production IGNORED IT. More importantly, the idiots in target that offshored this, were the ones that ignored the warnings.

And now, utilities are being stupid and following suite. It is time for shareholders to SUE the day lights out of Target and companies like this that offshore.

Outsourcing is definition of "view from the top"

[roc97007]

> This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.

In what world is outsourcing not the same culture in spades? Specifically, a few suits and a few lucky fourth or fifth level professionals selling the idea that a bunch of farmers with three hours of training can take over IT? This only works when the people making the decisions have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem they're trying to solve.

As if Californians didn't have enough power problems... I'm glad I don't live there.

A rising tide

[rsilvergun]

doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats. Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country. It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

Re:A rising tide

[khallow]

A rising tide doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats.

At least you've vaguely heard of the saying. The real saying is "A rising tide raises all boats". It basically sums up the general outcome of positive sum games. It amazes me how many people just don't get what a positive sum game is.

And the great irony here is that the largest ships, the developed world countries, are the ones being swamped. That's because they choose not to adapt. It's easier to blame the consequences of actions on the rich or whatever and just keep doing the same stupid things you decided you were going to do.

Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country.

Adaptation is cheaper and more effective than ignoring reality. For example, labor got cheaper, but capital didn't. Put some of your effort into acquiring capital rather than just depending on your labor for your well being.

It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

When the supposed solutions result in plunging billions of people into greater poverty, then it dishonors me and mine to not speak against these games. I can adapt for a lot less harm to the rest of the world than the current bout of absurd regulation, protectionism, and hysteria.

Re:What is an H-1B worker?

[stenvar]

It's also worth mentioning that they are paid a lot more here than wherever they come from. And they are going to work in IT either way. If we don't bring them here, they are going to compete with us from abroad, pay taxes abroad, work cheaper, and help build competing industries elsewhere.

Furthermore, it is not that difficult for H-1B's to change jobs or get green cards these days, and many of them immigrate. Conversely, for employment based immigration, almost everybody starts off as an H-1B, so killing off H-1Bs at this point kills of most employment-based immigration.

"...who exactly is the H1-B police..."

[tlambert]

And who exactly is the H1-B police who come arrest the violators?

That would be:

= U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
= U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services - Fraud Detection and National Security Division (FDNS)
= U.S. Department of Labor - Office of Inspector General
= U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS)
= U.S. Department of State
= U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Iowa

At least that's who it was for this case: http://exbay.blogspot.com/2009...

So perhaps you are an idiot for implying that these laws are unenforced and unpoliced, and it's a scaremongering tactic which actually has very little to do with the offshoring indicated by the original article, which in turn has very little to do with H1-B's at all, since off shore workers are in other countries, and don't require H1-B visas to be employed by a U.S. company, if they never leave their home country.