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California Utility May Replace IT Workers with H-1B Workers

Posted by Soulskill on from the if-california-falls-into-the-ocean-would-that-count-as-offshoring dept.

dcblogs writes: "Southern California Edison is preparing to offshore IT jobs, the second major U.S. utility in the last year to do so. It will be cutting its staff, but it hasn't said by how much. The utility is using at least two offshore outsourcing firms, according to government records. SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers. Following a workplace shooting in SCE's IT offices in 2011, the utility conducted an independent audit of its organizational and management culture. One observation in this report, which was completed a year later, was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'"

131 of 220 comments (clear)

  1. Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by HaeMaker · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you are "offshoring" you are literally having the work performed off-shore. If they fear their jobs are getting replaced by H1-Bs, then they are "outsourcing". It would be illegal for them to fire everyone then hire H1-Bs, and even if the off-shore companies place people that all happen to be H1-B, lawsuits will follow. How can the consulting company say they couldn't find competent employees when they know a bunch that got laid-off?

    1. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      It would be illegal for them to fire everyone then hire H1-Bs, and even if the off-shore companies place people that all happen to be H1-B, lawsuits will follow. How can the consulting company say they couldn't find competent employees when they know a bunch that got laid-off?

      The article basically claims that with employees making 60K+, the rule of "cannot find competent employees" does not apply to H1-B, so they should be ok. Does anyone know more about this loophole that the article is talking about?

    2. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As an interesting aside, should 'utilities' providing critical infrastructure be subject to more stringent hiring requirements?

      Similar to how national security jobs require a gov't clearance, should workers on critical infrastructure require similar concept of vetting?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    3. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by HaeMaker · · Score: 1

      I don't see anything here that would indicate such a loophole... http://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-...

    4. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In these types of arrangements you're basically right: Most work is performed in India, however there is SOME work that is done by U.S.-based Indian workers that are possibly H1-B. I've been a part of a major outsourcing effort by an F500 - first thing the CIO did, actually, after he was hired - and this was what happened: The North American help desk - once based in Texas - was shuttered in a matter of weeks and the work went to Wipro and the application-specific support went to what was then Satiyam, whose founder-CEO later got embroiled in a big accounting scandal. Many of the Wipro staff however was definitely based in the U.S., mainly to interface with the IT execs and deal with the transition but also to stay engaged with the business. With many millions on the line annually it behooves the outsourcing entity to stay on top of their contractual agreements, which are quite detailed on any outsourcing arrangement. There were also high-level (tier III and higher) IT ops engineers (the few that actually knew what they were doing) who were also Stateside.

      In any case SCE's arrangement doesn't necessarily sound like they are using H1B - from a legal perspective, anyway, but symbolically they might be.

    5. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      1) The government does not bother to enforce this law.
      2) The law says you can not sue unless you are personally affected.

    6. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 1

      2) The law says you can not sue unless you are personally affected.

      Well yeah, that's how tort laws have always worked. If somebody wrongs you, you the victim have to initiate a lawsuit or press charges. Your neighbor can't do it for you.

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    7. Re:Not H1-Bs, offshore workers. by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Critical? The Californian electricity system has been an international joke for decades. If it has improved then you'll just have to get used to all the brownouts and other supply problems again.

  2. IMPOSSIBLE by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    H1B1 Visa's are only because there are not enough applicants to fill a position. Just ask any republican and they will tell you and set the facts straight in interest of protecting the workers.

    It is illegal not to pay an H1B1 Visa worker less than a qualified worker. It is stated so it must be true!

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
    1. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that the race to the bottom has began, and I doubt it will end until we hit it. If it is cheaper to pay someone else to do the job, be it in another state, another country, or simply to ship in the workers they are going to do it, and if they can't do it, they will try to move the job itself to that other country or other state. Heck if they are just moving jobs to other states they can just call it a reorg and not even get any bad press about it, even though the key purpose was to surplus all those pesky highly paid workers who had devoted much of their lives to a particular company. The guys in charge are betting they can improve the balance sheet while they are there, then get a nice bonus for it, and if it all falls apart later, well they are likely gone or retired by then, so its not their problem.

      Sure you could setup sane rules to minimize it, but it is not easy, or at least the politicians make it more difficult than it needs to be. For instance, if the country that your buying all this stuff from has poor environmental laws, well then that country is basically not charging what is required to clean up their own mess, so the logical thing to do is to tarrif it in a measured way so at least society can somewhat deal with the mess later, or at the very least make the playing field a touch more level. At any rate, the reason the United States can't compete with manufacturing/labor/etc is as much as anything about the unlevel playing field. We find rules about safe working conditions and pollution to be a good thing, but hapilly ignore that others are less concerned with such things if we can buy a $200 television.

      The other common thing about jobs these days is companies have little loyalty to their employees, so of course their employees have little loyalty to the company either. This leads to companies always asking for employees that are tailor fit for a very obscure job, which of course they often can't find, since that job may be brand new and short term. So the company does a token search, fails to find the non existent expert on widget series 12 when combined with gear series 13 and 20 years experience with the new fad computer language that has only been out five, and of course concludes that it is H-1B time. Sure the employee may be even less skilled than those that were actually available, but hey he or she is cheap and leashed directly to the company of interest so they will spend some effort training him or her. Perhaps in the end they saved no actual money due to all the project delays, but they did save money on paper initially, and that is what is most important.

    2. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Go a few miles outside the cities and it is mostly Republican.

      Nevertheless CA is primarily a blue state. I'm not sticking up for the R's here - just pointing out that with many issues the D's are also busy screwing Americans. The D's whore for money too, and much of theirs comes from the tech industry. One of the few people in congress to oppose some of this H-1B crap is Chuck Grassley, who's an R.

    3. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If only there were organized groups of laborers that were able to band together to protect each others rights.

    4. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Don't ask what the H1N1 Visas are for.

    5. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Cost of living also tends to be higher in those Blue states. So this is a nice double whammy from states that are supposed to have more intrusive and effective governance.

      So much for that idea...

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Hategrin · · Score: 1, Flamebait
      +1.

      I live 15 miles from the Mexican border, I heard all the Liberal rhetoric when I was in college from my Govt and English professors. But you know what? All I had to do was look around and notice that the MAJORITY of the people here have 12 kids, no job, and do nothing but sit around and watch soap operas (novellas), sell/snort cocaine and benzos (they get them from the state mental health office), have a habit of using homophobic slurs and curses at their husbands/children/public, and blaming all their "problems" (anytime someone refuses a handout) on the "gringo".

      It's not any better at the college level as the colleges cater to these degenerate self-inflicted morons. Every time homework was assigned all the women would all at once exclaim "aaaaaaayeee siiiiiiiiir", and the college/professors would cave in because the campus first priority is to collect as much taxpayer money (pell grants) as they possibly can. In short, democrats and their "welfare for votes aka social justice" campaign has ruined every level of our society. Democrats know this, it's no wonder they want to hire H1Bs from a non welfare state (instead of an American Community College aka idiot factory) whenever it comes to a business they themselves are invested in.

    7. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by siddesu · · Score: 1

      You can't do that when big corporations are truly global. There have been mechanisms in place for the past 50 years to skirt national legislation by creating a 'consensus' among weaker states abroad and then importing it back as the 'international standard'. It is a lot safer to bribe officials outside of the country, where everyone involved is answerable to nobody. It is also a lot easier to keep negotiations under wraps. Not all international standards are bad, or come about by using this scheme, of course, but those that do most of the harm are.

    8. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by BobandMax · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's those awful Republicans that hold 60%+ majorities in both California legislatures, the governorship, both US Senate seats and a majority of the Congressional seats.

      --

      "Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      If only there were organized groups of laborers that were able to band together to protect each others rights.

      Socialisms! Evil! Burn the commie witch! Only corporations are allowed to work as bands to protect their rights!

    10. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      The race to the bottom started long ago.

      The destruction of the worker-employer bond even longer - back in the 1980s.

      Tarrifs weren't primarily about environmental responsibility, although indirectly they worked in that direction by favoring local production with its more stringent environmental regulations. But Free Trade has pretty much killed that.

      1950's Republicans would probably die of apoplexy. We gave Most Favored trade status to one of the world's biggest Communist countries.

    11. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by BonThomme · · Score: 1

      yes, the red states don't bother with the visas at all...

    12. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Fringe · · Score: 1

      If you're going to bring politics in, at least get them right. It's the Democrats that have supported H1Bs more, probably because they get all the tech money (Google, Microsoft, etc.)

    13. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by Fringe · · Score: 1

      If you're going to bring politics into a conversation, at least get it right. It's the Democrats that have been pushing the big H-1B increased. e.g. http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9242917/House_Democrats_push_ahead_on_immigration_H_1B/

      I suspect this is because the Democrats get most of the tech (Google, Microsoft, etc.) donations. But just because you're socially liberally (presumably, given your post and bias) doesn't mean you have to believe the Democrats never do wrong. Everybody does wrong at times.

    14. Re:IMPOSSIBLE by PortHaven · · Score: 1

      CITIZENSHIP...to start...

  3. Tech workers only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

    1. Re:Tech workers only? by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

      Are the management jobs safe because they provide such incredible expertise and knowledge that can only come from white people?

      No, there is a growing move to outsource Lawyer jobs too.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    2. Re:Tech workers only? by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      How do you know the managers aren't ALREADY from India? That was the case a couple of jobs ago for me, it was not exactly reassuring to hear from the high-level manager who was pushing for and managing the outsourcing, who happened to be Indian, that "these (offshore) people are not replacing any jobs in the US". It was completely false, of course, unless he meant that the six-month gap between each round of mass company-wide layoffs and adding more staffing to the offshore/outsource location were somehow disconnected. It really meant that each year they laid people off in the US when business slowed down, then added Indians a few months later when business picked up again. Since business was cyclical on an annual basis, it was a pretty predictable way to shift work offshore more and more each year.

    3. Re:Tech workers only? by matthewv789 · · Score: 1

      I should also say that, predictably, the Indian workers for the contract companies tended to rarely stay in their jobs longer than a year, so quality tended to be poor and training was a constant battle. And with a 15%+ pay increase every year (vs 2-3% in the US, in the few years they actually gave any pay increases at all), they were going to catch up eventually. But even at the time, other managers admitted privately that management and other costs ate up the difference and they weren't actually saving any money...

      ...which made me wonder why they continued to do it. Some kind of corruption?I always thought that after the initial wave of super-cut-rate offshore work, that I had to be missing something, not seeing something, to explain why it continued when it decreased quality and didn't save on net costs.

    4. Re:Tech workers only? by wytcld · · Score: 1

      Ya know, I have utmost respect for Indian civilization. I'm a Buddhist. I have India-raised Hindu and Jain friends. But in practical terms their IT workers, who I've been dealing with extensively in several contexts in recent years, are a disaster. It's not a matter of lack of whiteness. It's a matter of a culture where excuses and laziness outweigh any sort of responsibility. Often I've been dealing with very bright people, often eloquent. But they have no idea how to solve problems in IT of the sort that Americans and Europeans may stumble around with a bit, but get solved. Some cultures are just bad at some things. For Indian culture, it's IT.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  4. H-1B or offshore? by qbzzt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you offshore a position, it is in India (for example) and you don't need an H1-B visa.

    --
    -- Support a free market in the field of government
    1. Re:H-1B or offshore? by qbzzt · · Score: 1

      Good point. It is probably easier for people who are culturally Indian to manage workers in India from the US.

      --
      -- Support a free market in the field of government
  5. hey, check out Yemen Systems Associates by swschrad · · Score: 1

    they're offshore, they're cheaper than dust, and they're all religious fanatics. can't offshore more thoroughly than that for life-critical, society-critical infrastructure.

    you guys, really, your ties are way, way too tight.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  6. Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!? by Virtucon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is an outrage! Companies outsourcing jobs overseas! Management is concerned about perception rather than substance!

    What fucking decade are we living in here folks?!? This isn't news but it is confirmation that US companies are full of douche bags.

    --
    Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
  7. Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well? I sure haven't. Communication issues, poor worker training and expertise, high turnover. The 'savings' look good on paper, but in the end it's a disaster.

    1. Re:Good luck with that by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Worked well enough for my Dad at Xerox. Granted he got laid off for a couple years but got rehired when it went to shit and got quite the hefty raise and extra retirement out of the deal :)

      Not a plan I'd recommend obviously, but hey :)

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    2. Re:Good luck with that by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      Yes. For a company that was really badly managed I have seen off-shoring chunks of work to India work. Basically because the Indian project management was better than the American project management.

    3. Re:Good luck with that by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well?
      Think of the banana republic model and the way the USA looked after South and Central America over many decades.
      Experts arrived, products and services where imported, the raw materials where exported and local wages kept down.
      Shareholders in the US got to enjoy generational wealth and their `"trust" funds grew.
      The system works great, you just have to adjust to the role of seasonal shanty town worker or at best an on call technician - local middle class engineering is just too costly in todays networked world.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    4. Re:Good luck with that by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Re Has anyone, anywhere, seen an instance where a move like this actually works out well?

      Yes. A government department near me fired everyone to be immediately hired by the contracting company they outsourced to, work was not disrupted, the contracting company made a mint, and they were so happy with it that they gave very expensive gifts to the people in government that signed off on it. So it worked out well for some.
      The taxpayers funding it out course are screwed and the employees transferred over effectively took a pay cut by loss of benefits, but it worked out well for some utter weasels until most of the staff left. Replacing them with the cheapest warm bodies available resulted in disruption of services.
      Similar things happen in large enough companies in private enterprise as well.

  8. Tata! by QilessQi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Northeast Utilities, last fall, announced it was outsourcing part of its IT operations to Infosys and another Indian-based IT services giant, Tata Consultancy Services.

    I'm sure they were the breast candidate for the task.

    --
    Koans and fables for the software engineer
    1. Re:Tata! by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      Anectdote:
      I was in Kandahar and I saw this large breasted Army girl leaning on a new pickup. It was a Tata, and sitting right next to an identical one.
      I could not resist.
      "Nice tatas!"

    2. Re:Tata! by simishag · · Score: 1

      Well, they did say "it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below".

  9. they couldn't have just read Dilbert? by YesIAmAScript · · Score: 1

    'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'

    You don't need to commission an expensive report to find out stuff like this. It's so universal it's seen everywhere.

    Heck, Scott Adams who writes Dilbert was employed by Pacific Bell, which is not so completely different than Southern California Edison.

    --
    http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
    1. Re:they couldn't have just read Dilbert? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      It's so universal it's seen everywhere.

      Managers should also be formally judged by their underlings. If they score low or fail to improve in problem categories, they get docked pay.

      It can be an anonymous survey with 20 or so categories such as "Shows respect to me (employee)", "Explains my tasks clearly", "Listens to and thoughtfully considers my opinion", "Gives me meaningful and relevant work", "Explains the purpose of my work in terms of organizational goals", etc.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
  10. So what they're really saying. by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Southern California Edison has collectively determined that it is impossible to change the work atmosphere from the top down,

    so they'll be needing to import some workers who are better suited to the type of shop they run:

    Work the hands like a rented mule.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:So what they're really saying. by ImprovOmega · · Score: 1

      Yeah it's a funny thing - management screwed up, obviously the solution is to fire all of the workers.

  11. note that the 'workplace shooting' citation... by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    will now outsource to whereverstan.

  12. What is with humans and fixing symptoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    not the underlying root cause.
    employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates. This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.'
    So, instead of fixing their culture of mistrusted management, management instead replaces all of the people who don't trust them with people who are just happy to have a job. It's like a metaphor for everything humanity touches.

  13. What is an H-1B worker? by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

    ?
    We germans have no idea :)

    --
    Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    1. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by byteherder · · Score: 4, Informative

      A H-1B worker is a worker on a temporary work visa in the U.S. They are usually IT workers.

      Company bring them in claiming they cannot find 'qualified' U.S. worker but really do it just to hire cheaper foreign labor.

    2. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      If your job pays you a decent living there is some chance it could be outsourced, generally across a border, to save the company from having to provide you and yours that extravagant middle class existence. The Acronym for this phenomenon = H-1B

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Gastarbeiter

      Talk of creating an H-1B program in Germany a while back created a backlash phrase: "Leiber Kinder statt Inder!"

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    4. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Translation?

    5. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      I think it'd help to mention that temporary means 3-6 years, and that losing your job means losing your legal immigration status in the US. It's also very difficult for H-1B's to change jobs. They're wonderfully captive labor.

    6. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      Gast = Guest, Arbeiter = Worker . . . so Gastarbeiter = Guest-worker. If you liked playing with Lego, you'll love German.

      "Lieber Kinder statt Inder!" means, Rather children instead of Indians! Which meant that the government should pay more attention to social programs encouraging working women to have children, and investing more in tech training for German students . . . instead of importing (cheap) foreign talent.

      Of course, the whole plan was a ruse by companies who wanted to drive down the wages of IT workers.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    7. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by stenvar · · Score: 2

      It's also worth mentioning that they are paid a lot more here than wherever they come from. And they are going to work in IT either way. If we don't bring them here, they are going to compete with us from abroad, pay taxes abroad, work cheaper, and help build competing industries elsewhere.

      Furthermore, it is not that difficult for H-1B's to change jobs or get green cards these days, and many of them immigrate. Conversely, for employment based immigration, almost everybody starts off as an H-1B, so killing off H-1Bs at this point kills of most employment-based immigration.

    8. Re:What is an H-1B worker? by m00sh · · Score: 1

      I think it'd help to mention that temporary means 3-6 years, and that losing your job means losing your legal immigration status in the US. It's also very difficult for H-1B's to change jobs. They're wonderfully captive labor.

      H1Bs are not temporary visa. They are visa meant for immigration and has a path leading to a green card. The only problem is that getting the green card for Indian and Chinese nationals is hard because 95% of H1B applicants are from India and China and the US has a 9% limit on the number of immigrants granted from one single country. If you are from say a country like England, you can get H1B to green card under 1 year. India and China can be as long as 5-10 years.

      Also, losing your job part has been fixed over one and half decades ago. You can get a new job on the same visa. There actually is a huge incentive for recruiters to find unhappy H1B workers because they have passed through the difficult culture shock part and have gained experience making them more valuable.

      There is a considerable amount of favoritism in the job market. I know US citizens who came through the path of H1Bs from India or China will seek to find people from the same paths of life after they become managers and senior engineers when they should clearly only use H1B as a final resort after not finding absolutely any local talent. But, that exists in every job market. I have seen development groups that are all exclusively Chinese or all exclusively Indian precisely for that reason. But, if it functions well for the company then I guess its fine.

  14. Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!? by gandhi_2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The labor market is a market. They have labor to supply.
    Borders don't keep the jobs in any more than they keep people out.

    --
    THL phish sticks
  15. Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by bobbied · · Score: 3, Insightful

    First, we lost manufacturing jobs.... Then the engineering jobs started going off shore. So why are we surprised when the IT jobs do too?

    I feel for the youngsters coming out of college with a STEM degree these days. Huge student loan debt and fewer and fewer prospects..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      There are still advantages to employing local workers in most countries (including the U.S.) but until the playing field levels out a bit,

      the discrepancy is too great between what the rich nation's populace is willing to work for vis a vis what the poor nation's people will accept.

      Also, too, and neither should we discount the perceived value to a big company of another work force's local climate for labor laws and litigiousness.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
      reminds me someone posted:

      First they came after union workers, but I didn't speak out because I'm not a union member.
      Then they came after engineers, but I didn't speak out because I'm not an engineer.
      Then they came after network administrators, but I didn't speak out because most NAs are assholes.
      Then they came after me, and there was nobody left to speak out after me.

    3. Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by stenvar · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a myth that manufacturing in the US is on the decline; it simply has become smaller relative to other sectors, but in absolute terms, it's been growing.

    4. Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by matthewv789 · · Score: 2

      Manufacturing may be, but what about manufacturing EMPLOYMENT? When you use robots and automation, there aren't so many employees.

      And it may look large because US manufacturing is focused on large-ticket items, like aircraft and rockets and tanks. It's still the case that 99% of the routine goods that you buy (whether clothes or household items or toys or electronics) are made in China.

    5. Re:Ahh Yes the trend continues.. by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Manufacturing may be, but what about manufacturing EMPLOYMENT? When you use robots and automation, there aren't so many employees.

      I believe manufacturing employment has also not shrunk, but it's harder to find statistics on that and it depends on what you mean by "manufacturing employment". If you mean jobs for people with high school education, those have shrunk, simply because more and more people are actually getting college degrees.

      And it may look large because US manufacturing is focused on large-ticket items, like aircraft and rockets and tanks. It's still the case that 99% of the routine goods that you buy (whether clothes or household items or toys or electronics) are made in China.

      It doesn't just "look large", that makes it objectively large. And, yes, the US focuses on high margin, high value items because those support the high salaries that US workers demand.

      Mostly, these jobs move to China or Europe because Americans don't want to do them anymore.

      See what Rowe has to say about this:

      http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2...

  16. This needs to be Illegal by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations of it's Infrastructure to Foreign Entities -- doing so opens up the possibility of access being given to enemies of the US or US-based interests by employees of the IT company or by the IT company itself if it comes under the influence or control of enemies of the US.

    The ability to fuck with the infrastructure providing power to all of Southern California is a capability no one should be able to hand over to foreign nationals. The Federal Government needs to shove their foot right up the collective asses of Cal Eds Senior Management and Board.

    1. Re:This needs to be Illegal by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Nice try at a slur. There is nothing new, unusual, un-Constitutional or unreasonable about requiring that vital functions in the US be performed by US based entities.

    2. Re:This needs to be Illegal by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Then it is time for those that are laid off, to sue the company. In particular, in a court, they should be pointing out the security issues, esp. with target. And then push this issue with the courts.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:This needs to be Illegal by evilviper · · Score: 1

      " Under no circumstances should any Utility in the US be allowed to Off-Shore IT operations"

      They aren't. I know this from first-hand experience as a Sr Engineer for a major phone company, that is to remain nameless. I was responsible for the audit, after the DoJ specifically told us we needed to ensure anybody who wan't *physically* in the US at the time, would not have access to ANY production data.

      Despite the idiotic headline, this has to be about H1Bs who reside in the US, NOT off-shoring. The Fed wouldn't allow a list of 5 power pole locations to leave the country.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    4. Re:This needs to be Illegal by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      LOL...tell that to National Grid, who runs a huge chuck of the NE USA's power, owned by a UK company, and has outsourced everything possible to Wipro or whomever...

    5. Re:This needs to be Illegal by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Nice try at a slur. There is nothing new, unusual, un-Constitutional or unreasonable about requiring that vital functions in the US be performed by US based entities.

      I didn't say there was. What I said was that you have to get the law passed first. Just constructing some emotional argument to justify something is not sufficient, unless we really don't have the rule of law here.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  17. Unions by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Organization (via Unions) is the only solution I can think of to this. Sure, we could call it something else, but it's basically Unions.

    Un-Organized workers are too weak to demand or get better wages or a better way of life. Life basically stunk for everyone but a few kings thousands of years. It still stinks if you're not in one of the countries with a strong, well organized pool of labor that has solidarity. Sure, a few on /. might "Got Mine, FU" right now. But the powers that be are coming for you too....

    --
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    1. Re:Unions by Teun · · Score: 1
      So you feel a union's only tool is calling a strike?

      Poor deluded you!

      A union's goal is to improve working conditions and remuneration is one of them.
      Increasing the number of jobs and their quality are fundamental to the success of the union, both in the eyes of their members and of the employers.

      At times a union runs into an unresponsive employer who sabotages the balance between work and rewards, just like that employer they can sabotage the company until it sees the light.

      --
      "The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
    2. Re:Unions by eyepeepackets · · Score: 1

      Unions require the leverage of work stoppage causing production blockage, but this doesn't work when the employer can pick up shop and move to cheaper labor. Combine this with the lack of import tariffs and there is no leverage for a labor union to wield. For unions to work now, you'd have to have the workers of the world unite, which was a Socialist rallying call if I remember my history. We all know what Americans think of Socialism, especially the sneering libertarians found in IT departments.

      Unions will not work now like they did 100 years ago, at least not in the USA while there is such great disparity between here and there. Something that may or may not comfort you is that _everything_ in the U.S. will have to level down, including labor costs/wages, rents/returns, property values, profits -- it's called deflation and it's unavoidable.

      --
      Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
    3. Re:Unions by stenvar · · Score: 1

      You can force companies to pay higher wages, but you can't force them to exist. If they can't compete with overseas manufacturers at those higher wages, they are going to go out of business. And that's the reason companies outsource in the first place and why some key industries have disappeared from the US. So, high labor costs are the reason jobs are moving overseas, even to Europe; US wages are some of the highest in the world, and the only way we can pay those wages is by focusing on highly productive jobs. Jobs that return less than what a worker minimally costs disappear from the US, and no union is going to change that.

    4. Re:Unions by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      hey fuck-wad, it WORKED about 100 yrs ago...

      This isn't 100 years ago - the companies have gotten smarter (and far more PR-savvy) since then.

      Let me tell you how a certain progressive German company handled their union troubles here in the US...

      They bought an oil-company spin-off called Shell Solar. In their Washington (state) site, the Machinists' Union decided that it would be a great time to ask for a raise, since things had been stagnant there for awhile wage-wise. The company said no. The Union threatened to strike, and it made a bit of noise in the local papers.. The company quickly agreed to the wage increases.

      Not a handful of months later, the company decided to turn the WA production site into a warehouse, and gave the workers a choice: Either re-apply for jobs at lower wages in nearby right-to-work Oregon, or be out of a job. Two years later, the site was shuttered entirely.

      So - still think unions are the way to go?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  18. Combination of both by Jmstuckman · · Score: 5, Informative

    According to the article, they are outsourcing the work to an offshore IT firm. This IT firm, in turn, will give the work to a US location, which staffs itself with H-1B workers. The effect is that US-based workers are being laid off and indirectly replaced with H-1Bs.

    1. Re:Combination of both by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which is exactly why an Indian commerce minister referred to the H-1B as the "outsourcing visa". It's not an either/or situation - the H-1B visa helps enable outsourcing/offshoring.

    2. Re:Combination of both by Hamsterdan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Shouldn't that be illegal?

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
    3. Re:Combination of both by anubi · · Score: 2

      Shouldn't that be illegal?

      Depends

      If you are a college graduate who has invested tens of thousands of dollars into education and is expecting a return on that investment, if some businessman can get those skills cheaper overseas, its just good business.

      If you are some business who has invested tens of thousands of dollars developing some product and is expecting a return on that investment and someone can bypass that and simply download the work from an overseas server, that is copyright violation, violation of patent, or some other way of saying "theft" and is verboten.

      It just depends on how big you are and your relationship with the government on whether this action demonstrates "good business skills" or is considered "theft". Its really a fine line; I often cannot tell which side of it to be on myself, as I know that the game is rigged, and trying to be an honest player is a sure way to lose.

      My personal ethics and the reality of my environment are usually at odds with each other big-time on these issues, which is why I have done my damndest to "drop out" of it. Doing science is what I feel I was borned to do, but putting up with the politics of the management classes goes against damned near everything I hold true.

      --
      "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." [KJV: I Thessalonians 5:21]

    4. Re:Combination of both by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Its happens in a lot of US sectors from mil to computers to support.
      You set up a 100% US based firm to lobby for and sign off on US work, all the US legal needs, US contracting, US academic. State/federal US requirements are met.
      At the back end is massive complex reality of a 24/7 cost saving outsourcing/offshoring service.
      A massive reduction in US costs, a massive flow of long term cash out of the US for decades services all via a 100% Made in the USA success story.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:Combination of both by houghi · · Score: 1

      Let the market sort it out. Oh Wait.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    6. Re:Combination of both by VonSnaggle · · Score: 1

      The company I work for is doing the same thing, the company usually takes on the existing work force (called re-badging) to gather as much carnal knowledge and then do a re-org and everyone has to re apply for $35k dollar jobs (which is very difficult to live off of in the Bay Area); The company then brings in H1B's to rectify the problem (kinda like 3-card-monty).

      --
      if common sense was common, wouldn't everyone have it?
  19. Uh... change companies? by xeroized · · Score: 1

    Never understood why people say "my job sucks so bad" for so long that they will get to the point of workplace violence and/or suicide. It's ridiculous. If you don't like your job, leave. Those workers brought this upon themselves. They had a workplace shooting, and then complained it was managements fault? I'm not in Management, I am an IT Administrator, I deal with 30 projects at a time that I have to keep balanced and running, and I love my job. I didn't a couple jobs back. So I left and went to a new job. And I didn't like that one either, so I left again. Jobs are not that hard to find. I have no sympathy for these people. Now I love my job, and as I watch people lose their jobs to oversea's jobs, I laugh. Because every one of them deserve it. Let's be honest here... you want to work 8am - 5pm with an hour lunch, get paid over $60k a year (more in higher standard states), get bonuses and have a nice cushy job? That's absurd. I work over 50 hours a week, and I make over 100k a year because of the quality of my work, and how much I work. And no, I don't have a college degree, and I am in my mid twenties. Come on people, wake up.

    1. Re:Uh... change companies? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Yea, when you're a bit older, and have grown that money to a nice nest egg so that you don't need to work ever (at least till the economy crashes again), then you can say that you've won that particular game

    2. Re:Uh... change companies? by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      Let's be honest here... you want to work 8am - 5pm with an hour lunch, get paid over $60k a year (more in higher standard states), get bonuses and have a nice cushy job? That's absurd.

      Absurd? It describes my current work situation closely. Well, if you exclude the pay and hours; my pay is in the ballpark of yours, and my hours aren't as rigid as "8-5 with an hour lunch". Still, there's always something better and always something worse. It's important to be able to find satisfaction in whatever job you're doing, and you seem to have done that just fine.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    3. Re:Uh... change companies? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      As somebody in his mid forties and is still successfully in the game, I can tell you authoritatively that you think you are winning, but you are not.

      Agreed.

      Dear GP:

      * Wait until you're 35+, and start having a hard time getting up in the morning.

      * As time progresses, you get to choose between family and your 50+ hour workweek (anything else leads to divorce, which even $100k/yr won't ameliorate.) Otherwise, you end up old, childless, and alone. You do not want that fate.

      * In your 20's, burn-out is relatively unheard-of. In your 40's, it is something you'll spend a very huge chunk of your time trying to avoid at all costs.

      * $100k/yr in Alabama might be nice, but $100k/yr in California ain't shit.

      * Once you do reach your 40's, you'll start looking back a little.. and you may not like what you see. At nearly 45, I generally like the parts I see that didn't involve a cubicle (or desk). The only parts of my work history that I actually enjoy looking back at was either the USAF stint, or the teaching/professorial stint - not for the management (they mostly sucked ass), but for the feeling of awesomeness I get whenever I leaf through many of my former students' LinkedIn pages (or in the case of the USAF, times like whenever I stood on the flightline after fixing up a multi-million-dollar jet and gazed at the mountains nearby).

      Long story short - you only get so much time to spend on this earth - do you want to spend it slaving away for some parade of uncaring asshats who think you're ultimately disposable, or do you want to actually do something you can look back on and go "holy shit that was cool!"?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:Uh... change companies? by matfud · · Score: 1

      Yep

  20. So H-1B or offshore??? by iamacat · · Score: 2

    That would be completely different things with very different consequences. H-1B is a Visa to work in US, so jobs would not be offshored, just outsourced to a contractor (article mentions Infosys). Employees will be still paying taxes, and salaries can not be that low as they incur living expenses similar to US citizens. Added difficulty of changing jobs while on a visa does depress wages to some degree, but IT workers generally expect to live well.

    Offshoring of course means no tax revenue for US and much lower living standards and expenses, so low salaries that US residents can not accept without starving.

    It's unfortunate that the article doesn't make clear exactly what is happening.

    1. Re:So H-1B or offshore??? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Uh, no. They will use the H1B to learn the position and then go back to India. I watched this happen with Verizon. I was unimpressed.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    2. Re:So H-1B or offshore??? by Sprouticus · · Score: 1

      I was confused as well, see note above.

      Apparently they are sending it to an offshore company who will subcontract and use H1-B employees here to fill the roles.

  21. Re:The King of 18th Century England Called by cyber-vandal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have to pay my mortgage now. I can't afford to wait for your utopia.

  22. message to you globalization scum: by c5402dc53929211e1efb · · Score: 2

    I'll support globalization the day I'm free to move to and work in any country I choose.

    1. Re:message to you globalization scum: by rk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Until that day comes, I will refer to globalization with a more accurate name: "neo-feudalism".

  23. What benefits? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Free trade is great if you're a rich capitalist (e.g. someone that makes their living by owning capital). What about the rest of us? There's plenty of evidence to show NAFTA has been a disaster for everyone on both sides of the boarder except a few wealthy factory owners. Google a little and you won't find much to encourage you.

    Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom, but all anyone can remember about him is that a couple famous dictators happen to use his books for their rhetoric. Not that it's hard to predict that.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:What benefits? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes. Just ask North Koreans what they think about free trade, what with their not having any. And look how awesome they're doing.

      Free trade is nearly always a win-win in the long term. This has been proven both theoretically as well as empirically. But it can create tremendous dislocation in the short term, which is where all your ire comes from. This is why we need things like the basic income.

    2. Re:What benefits? by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The huge world out there that isn't already part of the developed world is doing well.

      Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom

      One of the many things he missed is that it raises the bottom greatly in the process.

    3. Re:What benefits? by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom

      Which is not all that different from the famous capitalist David Ricardo talking about the "iron law of wages". It's interesting what the two sides agree on.

    4. Re:What benefits? by retroworks · · Score: 1

      There are winners and losers. I don't mean to be callous towards the losers, but the baseball analogy stands. Integration of the negro league with the white league cost a lot of white and black baseball players their jobs in the short run, and most of the anger at the integration was from players that couldn't compete.

      And sorry but what are you talking about with NAFTA? With the exception of the drug economy (which is by no means free and transparent trade), Mexico has made tremendous progress since 1993. Where is "plenty of evidence" that the same growth would have been achieved by trade restriction? People who oppose trade spend a lot of time emphasizing incremental losses, in the way you could show lost income from baseball pitchers who lost their place on the bench to Bob Gibsons.

      All these arguments were made in Massachusetts when the Worcester textile industry relocated to North and South Carolina, it was all "doom and gloom" and externalized pollution. It was disruptive but Massachusetts economy did better by getting out of textiles and North Carolina did better by getting into them. Now NC has lost it's textile industry, and has Research Triangle in its place. A rising tide lifts all boats not anchored by protectionism.

      --
      Gently reply
    5. Re:What benefits? by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      We particularly like the flow of gang members through southern California.

    6. Re:What benefits? by Intrepid+imaginaut · · Score: 1

      Oh they remember a lot more than that about him... https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    7. Re:What benefits? by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Free trade is great if you're a rich capitalist (e.g. someone that makes their living by owning capital). What about the rest of us? There's plenty of evidence to show NAFTA has been a disaster for everyone on both sides of the boarder except a few wealthy factory owners. Google a little and you won't find much to encourage you. Karl Marx predicted that capital flowing to where labor was cheapest would result in a race to the bottom, but all anyone can remember about him is that a couple famous dictators happen to use his books for their rhetoric. Not that it's hard to predict that.

      There is no such thing as free trade. That's why we have patents, and proprietary code, and business secrets, to establish and maintain monopolies.

  24. You only have to look for ads in India and China by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    There are a few nations that provide the bulk of H1-B "workers".

    Look at job ads in those locations - those are the people that will replace the US workers.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  25. Re:The King of 18th Century England Called by Shompol · · Score: 1

    Free trade works well on a level playing field. Factories that process their waste cannot compete with those that dump waste in rivers and smog rest into the air. Workers in free countries cannot compete with slave labour in the overpopulated third world, where 50% of engineers sit unemployed, while the "lucky" ones commit suicides on a regular basis.

  26. Re:The King of 18th Century England Called by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Says the asshole who probably makes a very livable wage.

  27. Dilbert is Real by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Funny

    SCE's management culture may be particularly primed for firing its IT workers...One observation in this report...was that 'employees perceive managers to be more concerned about how they 'look' from above, and less concerned about how they are viewed by their subordinates.

    PHB1: "This survey shows our employees think we in management are clueless superficial jerks. What do we do about it?"

    PHB2: "I got it! Fire them all and outsource their work to new people who don't yet know we are clueless superficial jerks."

    PHB1: "Brilliant! Let's vote ourselves a raise for this plan!"

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  28. Re:Outsourcing! Management Sux! What?!? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    But third-world labor is often cheaper because those countries don't have and/or enforce labor, safety, and pollution laws. Should we trash the USA in order to compete with those used to living in trashy country?

    Further, individuals here don't have the ability to change their entire country even if they personally wanted the trade-offs offered by such an Ayn Rand "paradise".

    And why reward trashy countries for being trashy by giving them our jobs? We should encourage them to get civilized.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  29. Replace manangement first.... by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    H1B's can do the managements job a Lot better and a lot cheaper. There is far more savings in replacing everyone at the manager level and up.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  30. we need basic income and Medicare for All by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    we need basic income and Medicare for All and then we can be ok with outsourcing.

  31. Re:Uh. no by jedidiah · · Score: 1

    So it's local outsourcing. They're still taking away your job so that they can give it to someone that isn't in as good of a bargaining position. It doesn't matter if it's some guy in a 3rd world country, or some guy that's visiting from a 3rd world country who gets to be treated like dirt.

    Both "illegals" and H1-B's fall into this sort of 3rd world underclass.

    As if we didn't already have enough pockets of 3rd world fester...

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  32. Oh yeah, well I'm replacing SCE by ssufficool · · Score: 1

    With offshore made solar panels. They can now pay me for power.

  33. BSABSVR by L.+J.+Beauregard · · Score: 2

    Deportations have continued apace under Obama.

    Of course we'll never get them all, because the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment doesn't have enough manpower. So if you want to round up that last illegal, fine.

    Increase the size and funding of the Vaterlandssicherheitsdepartment about tenfold.

    Swarm this land with goons to grab hold of anyone who looks a little brown, ask him "Sus papeles, por favor", and beat the mierda out of him when he answers in English.

    And you can STFU about Big Government and you can STFU about the taxes needed to pay for it all.

    Or we can slap some fines on the companies that hire illegals, or that illegally hire H1Bs instead of Americans. But no, that'll never happen, because Job Creators.

    --
    Ooh, moderator points! Five more idjits go to Minus One Hell!
    Delendae sunt RIAA, MPAA et Windoze
  34. Typical by TClevenger · · Score: 1

    Southern California Edison has already outsourced thousands of jobs and sold off everything not nailed down. Frankly, I'm surprised that IT wasn't the FIRST to go.

    And yet, ratepayers haven't seen a dime of all of these savings.

  35. How it is done by speedlaw · · Score: 1

    You want to hire an H1-B. You then write a description for the visa that can only be filled by the prospective applicants (must speak Mandarin and Portuguese, code COBOL, have a C++ degree and play good lacrosse) You advertise. Many poor saps, thinking it might be a real job, apply. None of them fit your cookie cutter description. (or, want to work for the offered salary). You get visa. The visa lives or dies at the employers' whim. Gives a whole new area of control over the employee.... I'm amazed. Kids summer camps. Ski areas. In a nation of folks who need jobs, I see a lot of H1-B in certain industries.

  36. LOL. Lessons from target not learned by WindBourne · · Score: 2

    First, one of Target's HVAC guy lost an ID. BUT, target has NOT found that the ID was used to get in there and that was the entry point.

    Yet, the one thing that amazes me, is that they totally ignore the fact that not only did Target offshore a great deal, but esp. their production was offshored.
    And this was the group that is paying their Indian software engineers, about $7-9K/year (India, like china, plays games with their money against the dollar). How easy is it to offer somebody say 70K to simply open a port, or to leave a back door, etc, and NOT have it be found? Keep in mind that $70K in India, with the current rupee money, is a 10 year salary. You can quietly leave target, get another job elsewhere and have your retirement fully taken care of.
    Yes, one group said that something was going on, but the group in India that was dealing with Production IGNORED IT. More importantly, the idiots in target that offshored this, were the ones that ignored the warnings.

    And now, utilities are being stupid and following suite. It is time for shareholders to SUE the day lights out of Target and companies like this that offshore.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  37. For those of you losing your job, sue them. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Buy some stock in the company and sue them. Seriously. Sue them for making hiring ppl that will be easy targets for bribery.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  38. Security? by PPH · · Score: 1

    How do they offshore IT jobs and address security concerns at the same time?

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  39. Outsourcing is definition of "view from the top" by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    > This fosters an unhealthy culture and climate by sending a message to employees that it is more important to focus on how things look from the top than how they actually are down below.

    In what world is outsourcing not the same culture in spades? Specifically, a few suits and a few lucky fourth or fifth level professionals selling the idea that a bunch of farmers with three hours of training can take over IT? This only works when the people making the decisions have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problem they're trying to solve.

    As if Californians didn't have enough power problems... I'm glad I don't live there.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  40. A rising tide by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats. Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country. It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

    --
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    1. Re:A rising tide by khallow · · Score: 2

      A rising tide doesn't raise all ships, it swamps all but the biggest boats.

      At least you've vaguely heard of the saying. The real saying is "A rising tide raises all boats". It basically sums up the general outcome of positive sum games. It amazes me how many people just don't get what a positive sum game is.

      And the great irony here is that the largest ships, the developed world countries, are the ones being swamped. That's because they choose not to adapt. It's easier to blame the consequences of actions on the rich or whatever and just keep doing the same stupid things you decided you were going to do.

      Also, how does that help you, living a middle class life in a first world country.

      Adaptation is cheaper and more effective than ignoring reality. For example, labor got cheaper, but capital didn't. Put some of your effort into acquiring capital rather than just depending on your labor for your well being.

      It's OK to think about yourself and your long term well being, You know?

      When the supposed solutions result in plunging billions of people into greater poverty, then it dishonors me and mine to not speak against these games. I can adapt for a lot less harm to the rest of the world than the current bout of absurd regulation, protectionism, and hysteria.

    2. Re:A rising tide by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      Positive Sum Gaming would work if the rich didn't gain when you lose. But they do. They gain power. See here.. Adaption is a slow, painful process. When the industrial revolution hit in the mid 1700s millions were impoverished by automation before the economy caught up in the 1800s. 60+ years of misery. We've seen it happen, I don't see any good reason we should let it happen again just to preserve a misguided notion of "freedom" at all costs.

      You're also assuming we have to have 80% of humanity living in abject poverty. But is that really true? Are we as a people so weak that we can't feed or cloth one another? We already know the answer is no. We already produce enough food to feed everyone on the planet, we just need people willing to say it's OK for people to have food, even if they didn't work themselves to death to get it.

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    3. Re:A rising tide by khallow · · Score: 1

      Positive Sum Gaming would work if the rich didn't gain when you lose. But they do.

      This is wrong. You are operating from incorrect premise, probably because you live in a developed world country.

      You're also assuming we have to have 80% of humanity living in abject poverty.

      You just made this assumption for the first time in this thread.

      We already produce enough food to feed everyone on the planet, we just need people willing to say it's OK for people to have food, even if they didn't work themselves to death to get it.

      A truly stupid statement, since those people have been saying that for some time. Saying "it's OK for people to have food" doesn't magically give people food. You need to have the infrastructure in place, including social and legal, in order for it to happen.

  41. "...who exactly is the H1-B police..." by tlambert · · Score: 2

    And who exactly is the H1-B police who come arrest the violators?

    That would be:

    = U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
    = U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services - Fraud Detection and National Security Division (FDNS)
    = U.S. Department of Labor - Office of Inspector General
    = U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS)
    = U.S. Department of State
    = U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Iowa

    At least that's who it was for this case: http://exbay.blogspot.com/2009...

    So perhaps you are an idiot for implying that these laws are unenforced and unpoliced, and it's a scaremongering tactic which actually has very little to do with the offshoring indicated by the original article, which in turn has very little to do with H1-B's at all, since off shore workers are in other countries, and don't require H1-B visas to be employed by a U.S. company, if they never leave their home country.

    1. Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..." by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      Well there's an authority to base your response upon! I especially like the links to payday loans and making sure your H1B sponsor treats you properly. I missed the part where it actually backs up a single thing you assert since the press release it references is not linked.

    2. Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..." by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Well there's an authority to base your response upon! I especially like the links to payday loans and making sure your H1B sponsor treats you properly. I missed the part where it actually backs up a single thing you assert since the press release it references is not linked.

      http://www.uscis.gov/archive/a...

      Government press release you could have googled yourself. Feel free to continue whining that nothing is ever enforced in this area of law.

    3. Re:"...who exactly is the H1-B police..." by Sarius64 · · Score: 1

      I didn't realize mind reading the random person was a mandatory requirement for participation on Slashdot.

      Never made the claim you assert.

      More arrests were probably made for Nigerian princes than this pathetic example.

      These arrests can't even being to affect the level of job depression flooding America with bullshit wages.

  42. Hey, Lets Fix This by rally2xs · · Score: 1

    Good luck studying CS in college - I always advise against it for just this reason. The industries cry about not having competent domestic help, but what do they do? Simply outsource to save a buck, and the domestic help, us, work at Walmart.

    Anyway, the fix for this, at least the H1B's, is the Fair Tax. It is a consumption tax on spending on new retail items for sale and services. it abolishes the income taxes, which make doing things in the US much cheaper, because there would be no corporate income tax. As for H1B's, the Fair Tax has a mechanism called the "prebate" that sends every citizen enough $$$ to cover the Fair Tax on all his spending up to the poverty level. The prebate is paid to citizens, not foreign workers. So, the foreign workers would be put at a disadvantage even if they do want to work for peanuts here. The Fair Tax is the way to full employment for the American people. We just have to pass the Fair Tax in congress.

  43. Fuck that by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

    Yes, let's base compensation on seniority rather than merit or anything related to real-world performance, and make it impossible to fire someone for anything short of mass murder. Then let's take a chunk of each worker's paycheck against their will and give it to the goddamn politicians to fund their campaigns. Yep, that sounds like exactly what the tech sector needs.

  44. There is only one way to stop this by POed+Lib · · Score: 1

    The leaders of the H-1B movement must be removed. These include Eschoo, Lofgren in the House and Feinstein, Boxer in the Senate. In CA, there is an open primary. Eschoo and Lofgren must be primaried by a DEMOCRAT who is ANTI-H-1B. The political picture in CA is much wider open than it was 6 years ago. Who will step up and take on Lofgren, an immigration traitor and thief who has made millions bringing in scabs to steal American jobs. Who will take her on?

  45. The very HEIGHT of irresponsibility! by kheldan · · Score: 1

    The U.S. economy is still in recovery and unemployment is still high. It's bad enough that we're importing workers for any reason, but to actually fire employees so you can import cheaper workers? What the actual FUCK!? It's pitchfork/scythe/burning torch time, I think; it's time for a little insurrection. U.S. companies need to be hiring U.S. citizens, damnit!

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
  46. Re:glad I don't live in cali by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    Most people realize that you can't offshore everything.

    But, IT is not one of those things you can't offshore.

  47. Re:oh please... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

    The republicans will be the one screaming socialism if workers did this. The democrats wouldn't care

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
  48. It's simple... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    You're not understanding that the problem of culture that couldn't be fixed, was workers complaining of abuse. Since the workers were not willing to just accept it, no matter what managers, upper managers, and executives tried. The solution was to replace workers with temp. immigrants.

  49. Let's not forget... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    That H1B visa holders are contacted almost every year on their anniversary and apologized to, that they must accept a 5%-15% wage cut...if not, they lose their job and visa. So they accept.

    Then they tell the American's the avg wage is xx,xxx, so they are being let go because they're being paid more than average..