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Will the Nissan Leaf Take On the Tesla Model S At Half the Price?
cartechboy (2660665) writes "Ask most people why they won't consider an electric car, and they talk about range anxiety. And I can easily imagine why 84 miles of range isn't enough. Now it sounds like Nissan is listening, as well as watching Tesla's success. The company plans to boost the Leaf electric car's driving range with options for larger battery packs. Not long ago Nissan surveyed Tesla Model S owners, and they probably heard loud and clear that longer driving range is very, very important. So it looks like the Leaf might get up to 150 miles of range, possibly by the 2016 model year. The range increase will come from a larger battery pack, possibly 36 or 42 kWh, and more energy-dense cells. Either way, clearly Nissan is looking to expand the appeal of the world's best-selling electric car, and increasing its driving range is pretty clearly a key to doing so. I just wish Nissan would ditch the weird styling while they're at it."
Where X miles is some unit that has no relationship to the actual amount of driving you do.
Sure, if you're an Australian Cattle Rancher crossing the route from Perth to Adelaide, maybe you care about having range.
Grandma who never drives outside of town? What is she worrying about?
Tesla is the Apple of the electric car world: even if Nissan comes up with equivalent models for cheaper, people will still prefer Teslas because they're perceived as hip or upmarket.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
I hope that eventually logic will prevail and properly organized mass transit (including maybe self-driving taxi cabs) will replace most of the private cars. Then we will not have to argue about the little details like individual vehicle range, styling or retail price.
As usual with a Slashdot article title ending with a question mark, the answer is no?
These are not the same class of vehicle. Around these parts there are quite a number of Tesla Model S's - in fact I would have gotten one myself if it had been possible to get it delivered before January 1 (long story, tax breaks) - and all the owners I know of are small to medium business owners with money to spare. Had they not gone for the Model S, they would have gotten one of the bigger models Audi, BMW, or Mercedes - electric or not. I can't see a single one of these folks getting a Leaf instead, not even at half the price.
Then again, maybe the target demographic for the Model S is different on your side of the pond ...
The Leaf's battery is warrantied for 10 years. Most people don't own a car for 10 years.
The overall maintenance schedule is ridiculously light. No $600/year checkup. No oil changes. It's pretty much just cabin air filters and brakes.
It's an odd looking car because every design decision was made to decrease drag, which has a huge impact on range at highway speeds. The most notable feature on the front is the big bug eye headlight covers. They push air out of the way and create low pressure bubbles around the rear view mirrors- decreasing drag.
While it is true, if you keep the car long enough you'll eventually need a new battery. The battery warranty is for 8 years, or 10 years in some states. Nissan hasn't released a price for a replacement pack. Most experts believe the battery costs around $5,000 currently. But it will probably be half that price by the time you need to replace it. On the flip side, the electric car requires almost no regular maintenance like your CR-V does. And when you do replace the battery, the car should be good to go for another 10 years because the rest of the car should last much longer than a gasoline car.
The Leaf is a better comparison to your CRV than the Tesla is; the Tesla is in a totally different segment of the market than the CRV.
The CRV has tons more working parts than a Leaf does (gas engines have lots and lots of complex moving parts; the drivetrain of a Leaf is incredibly simple in comparison). I would expect that on average a CRV would require much more maintenance over its lifetime than a Leaf would.
This would, to some degree, mitigate the battery replacement cost of the Leaf. Additionally, depending upon your locale, the Leaf's charging costs may be close to zero; here in Silicon Valley it's very common for workplaces to provide free charging stations for electric cars. I am pretty sure that at least a dozen of my co-workers pay nothing for recharging since they just plug in at work and recharge there every day.
The fuel costs of a CRV would be somewhere north of $1,000 per year, so the equivalent $0 charging cost of a Leaf would more than pay for a battery replacement over the lifetime of the car.
Of course, not everyone will get free charging for their Leaf. But my point is just that the CRV is not guaranteed to be cheaper to run over its lifetime than a Leaf is; and in some situations, the Leaf will definitely come out ahead.
I have ridden in one co-worker's leaf quite a few times for lunch trips and it's really a nice car. But butt ugly :)
I just wish Nissan would ditch the weird styling while they're at it.
This is why Tesla is getting so much public attention: the cars they make look like cars people actually want to drive. Stop making every electric car look like a midget minivan (a miniminivan?) and more people would actually buy them.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
The overall maintenance schedule is ridiculously light. No $600/year checkup. No oil changes. It's pretty much just cabin air filters and brakes.
Which is why dealerships in the various U.S. states have been fighting Telsa so vigorously. The Leaf doesn't scare them... yet.
There's a lot of money to be lost in empty service bays.
I have leased a Leaf for the past year and I love it. It's not just a great electric car, it's a great car. The single speed transmission (not CV) is fantastic. You don't realize how obnoxious gear changes and engine noise are until you drive without them. It's like floating on a cloud.
My lease is $300/month, but I'm saving almost $100/month on gas. The electricity costs me about $30 per 1000 miles. Never having to stop at a gas station or get an oil change is nice.
They're not for everyone. If you have a house with garage that you can install a 220V outlet in, it's far more convenient. Having a second vehicle in the house for long trips is nice too. But I've probably traded cars with my wife out of necessity 2 or 3 times in a year.
It is an odd looking car, but every design decision was made to decrease drag, which is very important for range at highway speeds. I'm ok with function over form and I don't care what strangers think. The front and back seats are comfortable for normal sized adults, and there is plenty of cargo space in the back.
If you're in the market for a car that's going to spend a majority of its time going to and from work and short trips around town, you should really give the Leaf a test drive.
Look - you wanna sell a jillion Nissan Leafs? Make the look like THIS, and I would buy one in a fuckin' heartbeat. Electric cars don't have to look like lumpy golf carts.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
This is actually correct: the median car age in the US in 2011 (latest year mentioned in wikipedia) was 10.8 years. And the average age is going up, and electric cars will only make it go up more.
Everything is relative...
Bingo. My commute is 10 miles one way. The big town is 20 miles the other way. A very plausible trip is 10 miles to work, 30 miles to town, 20 miles home - 60 miles in one day. Given paranoia, I slap a x2 on there(I might get called into work again, another 20 miles, might forget to charge the night before, power outages, etc...), Thus I'd prefer a car with at least 120 miles of range. That's even without considering that a common camp site for me is 60 miles away. There's power there so I could trickle charge over the week end for margin, but it's something to consider. As is range losses due to heat/cold/age/etc...
As such, I say it's not just people want to pay for more than 'what they need', it's that most proponents of short-range EVs only look at median driving distances. Most purchasers of vehicles are going to be looking for a vehicle that satisfies the 90th percentile of their driving 'needs'.
It's hardly 'no relationship' as the AC said.
I don't read AC A human right
The LEAF doesn't scare them, because they control LEAF sales. Have you ever seen a Nissan dealership actively offering a LEAF, or they just have them in case you already made up your mind ?
BTW. When I lived in the USA I owned a Eagle Talon (the Mitsubishi Eclipse). Even though I drove it 150k miles over 7 years, I only gave it a single trip to the dealership, right before I sold it, just replaced fluids and tires. Replaced the battery once. There are many IC cars out there that can be driven for 200k miles with perhaps 3 trips to the dealerships.
It's the sucker idiots that insist on buying a crappy Detroit car that is built to break down every couple of years.
Unless forced to, I'll never buy an american designed car, except for a Tesla, ever again. Japanese/German cars rule.
In an ideal world the anchor points and the battery interface would be standardized and third party companies will come up with the push/pull pack battery rentals. But I expect every manufacturer to come up with proprietary non-interchangeable walled gardens of batteries, connections etc.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
It should, you are just not maintaining it 4 oil changes at $50 each = $200 Each year you should do one other service item, This year I had brake fluid flushed at $325 (I'm up to $525) next year is a transmission fluid and filter at $600. Last year I had the AC serviced to the tune of $400 and saved me from having an expensive Compressor failure later on. 2 years from now is time for a tuneup, etc....
And that is my honda civic. Most cars have about $600 in basic maintenance costs. Some need it more like the GM garbage that started to fall apart after 5 years.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
It's an odd looking car because every design decision was made to decrease drag, which has a huge impact on range at highway speeds. The most notable feature on the front is the big bug eye headlight covers. They push air out of the way and create low pressure bubbles around the rear view mirrors- decreasing drag.
No doubt the design was done that way for a purpose. It's still a highly unattractive car. The tesla, on the other hand has a CD of .30 compared to the Leaf's .28.
.02 for a better looking car.
I'll give up the
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In the immortal words of Socrates, who said; 'I drank what?'
Close, but not quite. Most people own a car _older_ than 10 years. Not all of them bought it new. There is some truth to both the stereotype of the guy who has to have the new hotness every couple of years and the guy who would never think of buying anything less than two years old to weed out lemons and avoid the early value cliff.
If everybody's needs were identical, we would not have the variety of vehicles that we have. I live in Boston but as an IT consultant have to lug stuff around often to my clients and also ferry my teenage son to places not easily served by public transport. I drive under 30 miles in a normal day and need something small that I can easily park on the street, so I leased a Smart electric. Real world range is 40 miles winter, 60 miles rest of the year, I charge it every night and I can park it anywhere, hell, the lease on the car is less than the gas I sued to spend on my jack of all trades SUV that I have sidelined. In short, it is the perfect car for me (other than looking foolish as hell) but it would be the completely wrong car for most people. Horses for courses.
Have you actually driven a Leaf? Have you driven a Tesla?
Unless you're only looking for a muscle-car or high-speed freeway monster, it's actually a lot of fun to drive. It's quick, it handles well, it's quiet, it moves through traffic just fine.
Surely you mean Leaflets? ;-)
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
When the Leaf first was introduced, people in the electric vehicle industry were floored that the Leaf relied on air cooling for the batteries, and at that it is passively cooled. I cannot imagine continuing this with a larger pack; while the load per cell goes down, if you are trying to make a denser pack you will need to include liquid cooling to pull heat out. Liquid cooling is more expensive than air cooling to develop/produce, so it will be interesting to see what Nissan comes up with in the final implementation.
The Mercedes CLA has a .23, and it's beautiful. You don't have to make an ugly car to get a low coefficient. They just did.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...