Why Lavabit Shut Down

An anonymous reader writes "Ladar Levison, founder of the encrypted email service Lavabit that shut down last year because of friction with U.S. government data requests, has an article at The Guardian where he explains the whole story. He writes, 'My legal saga started last summer with a knock at the door, behind which stood two federal agents ready to to serve me with a court order requiring the installation of surveillance equipment on my company's network. ... I had no choice but to consent to the installation of their device, which would hand the U.S. government access to all of the messages – to and from all of my customers – as they traveled between their email accounts other providers on the Internet. But that wasn't enough. The federal agents then claimed that their court order required me to surrender my company's private encryption keys, and I balked. What they said they needed were customer passwords – which were sent securely – so that they could access the plain-text versions of messages from customers using my company's encrypted storage feature. (The government would later claim they only made this demand because of my "noncompliance".) ... What ensued was a flurry of legal proceedings that would last 38 days, ending not only my startup but also destroying, bit by bit, the very principle upon which I founded it – that we all have a right to personal privacy.'"

Comments

USA, the land of freedom

[Jmc23]

Where freedom refers to the the government being free to fuck you over as much as they want!

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[currently_awake]

Proving once more that nothing American can be trusted. Being a super power I expect they think they are immune to repercussions from all of this- but you will find that having most of the planet refusing to buy anything American will end that super power status rather quickly.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

Let me guess...YOU live in the nation with the trustworthy government, and your country's companies make nothing but the BEST. Also, your feces is fragrant, like flowers.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

you will find that having most of the planet refusing to buy anything American will end that super power status rather quickly.

Like what? Designed in California, Made in China?

If there is one place that actually manufactures anything it would be China, not US. US just repackages Chinese stuff, marks it up 10x and sticks a label Made in US - all fair since inputs were clearly 10% of the actual manufacturer's price.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

Not really. The US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade. Sure there would be some dislocations but it would likely remain a superpower.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

The US Government is a corporate controlled criminal & terrorist network and your pathetic attempt to point fingers elsewhere will not change that.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is /. and all, but does anyone here believe there is a government in the world that does not do this? EVERY developed (and some not so developed) country spies on its citizens. The only reason ANY country would not do as much as the US is doing is PURELY due to lack of budget/technology. All this crap about the NSA putting back doors in everything, do you think China isn't putting back doors in everything? If all the equipment that travels through the US traveled through instead, do you really think they wouldn't do the same? The fact that people didn't know/assume this was happening before the Snowden documents came out just proves how naive they are. What the fuck so you think the NSA is doing with all that money?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

The US Government is a corporate controlled criminal & terrorist network and your pathetic attempt to point fingers elsewhere will not change that.

All power corrupts, I'm not claiming exception, and you're a pathetic anonymous coward.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I know this is /. and all, but does anyone here believe there is a government in the world that does not do this? EVERY developed (and some not so developed) country spies on its citizens. The only reason ANY country would not do as much as the US is doing is PURELY due to lack of budget/technology. All this crap about the NSA putting back doors in everything, do you think China isn't putting back doors in everything? If all the equipment that travels through the US traveled through "INSERT COUNTRY HERE" instead, do you really think they wouldn't do the same? The fact that people didn't know/assume this was happening before the Snowden documents came out just proves how naive they are. What the fuck so you think the NSA is doing with all that money? Sorry for the duplicate post, I used greater-than and less-than the surround the "insert country" but and it got eaten by slashdot or the browser as HTML.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

That's silly. The US has more or less the same size manufacturing economy as China.

http://www.shopfloor.org/2011/...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[click2005]

Facts seem to disagree with you, the US trade deficit is higher than any other nation... bigger than the next 9 countries combined.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Knightman]

Uhm, you know that US imports most of its consumer goods?

That means that the US also need to export things to have a healthy trade balance, otherwise the economy will go in the crapper (even more so than it is).

The US has been running a trade deficient since 1980's and if foreign countries stop buying US made products it's going to be a huge problem financially. In March the US trade deficit was a staggering $40 billion. See http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade for current and historical data on the US trade.

In other words, saying that "the US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade" is patently wrong.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[dhammabum]

OK, I'll bite - so just because other countries abuse people's rights, that makes the abuse of the US courts and government OK? The point is: most other countries abusing such rights don't hypocritically pretend to be "the land of the free." Except the UK, of course. Once this may have been true for the US but that time has long gone.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[log0n]

The 80s were the worst thing to ever happen to us.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Owww- are your feelings hurt?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[dcollins]

"Logical Fallacies -- Changing the Subject: The fallacies in this section change the subject by discussing the person making the argument instead of discussing reasons to believe or disbelieve the conclusion. While on some occasions it is useful to cite authorities, it is almost never appropriate to discuss the person instead of the argument."

http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/subject.htm

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[thesupraman]

You actually believe that shit? Really?

Do you realize that what it is actually saying is that in the US, manufacturers have much higher markups on their products than Chinese?
And of course carefully ignores the fact that most of what they count as manufacturing is actually assembly of Chinese produced components?

a few other titbits you may like:
'China’s holdings of U.S. Treasuries increased $12.2 billion to a record $1.317 trillion in November, data released on the Treasury Department’s website showed. '
'China’s swelling foreign-exchange reserves, reported today to have reached a world record $3.82 trillion at the end of December'

The simple fact is that americans have priced themselves out of base manufacturing, and are only just holding on to 'value-added' assembly - most of the
base capability still left is held their artifically to avoid huge unemployment of the working class.
That is of course why the US has spent the last two decades forcing their own bizarre view of IP/Trade laws down the throats of other countries practically at gunpoint - after all the Romans demand their peeled grapes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_virtue .

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[_merlin]

The difference is that only "enlightened western democracies" are so fucking hypocritical about it. The USA is the worst offender in this regard. They keep carrying on about freedom and liberty and other bullshit while implementing things like this, waging illegal wars, and trying to force their ideology onto the world. It's the hypocrisy more than the actual actions.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

I'm pretty sure every nation that has ever existed has claimed "freedom" as one of the attributes of its citizens. I've never heard of one that didn't. Can anyone help me out here?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Knightman]

You are aware that the article is from 2011? A lot has happened since that article was written.

During 2011 Chinas manufacturing output increased by 23% compared to the US 2.8%. That $2.9 trillions vs. $2.43 trillions, a ~20% difference for 2011. Since then China has steadily increased their output while the US has been at a standstill because of the recession.

If you are going to post something, please read up on it first!

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[log0n]

We expect it from China because they are [more or less] (not us, so therefore) a potential enemy, like Russia, like latest Islamatyrant, blah blah.

(going US centric) We were raised to believe that the US was better than what we're finding out it's doing. We were taught to believe we are a shining beacon of freedom, democracy, that our way is the best way - or at least it's the best way done so far - because look at all of the failings we see around us.. we take the moral highground making us better than the tyrants who do the stuff that we despise, etc.

There are a lot of Snowdens out there.. not necessarily in what power or knowledge we have, but that those of us that feel everything instilled in us about our nation's greatness is turning out to be complete bullshit.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

Agreed. Said fallacy was committed by "Currently Awake". He changed the subject when the topic "startups are helpless against force from the NSA" became "nothing American can be trusted".

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

Owww- are your feelings hurt?

Your mom.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[clarkkent09]

We ARE better. We are not perfect and we are a lot harder on ourselves. A Chinese and Russian "Snowden" would have quickly disappeared with nobody knowing or caring.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[rmdingler]

I empathize, nay, am nearly envious of folks who still wear the comforting cloak of naivity, as I did growing up in an earlier American generation.

Political corruption always exists. The extent to which it affects you is parallel to the degree your ruling class is allowed to interfere in your private lives.

Your country's government is not the one of the last high-minded do-gooders the World has to offer.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, His last name is really Jones, and he is a Doctor. Do you want his mailing address? Nothing like hiding in plain sight... What a pussy Jones! Man up, let's see the results of your last colonoscipy... if you really even have a colon.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[myowntrueself]

Uhm, you know that US imports most of its consumer goods?

That means that the US also need to export things to have a healthy trade balance, otherwise the economy will go in the crapper (even more so than it is).

The US has been running a trade deficient since 1980's and if foreign countries stop buying US made products it's going to be a huge problem financially. In March the US trade deficit was a staggering $40 billion. See http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade for current and historical data on the US trade.

In other words, saying that "the US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade" is patently wrong.

The USA 'exports' 'intellectual property' problems to the rest of the world.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Would Superman lose his powers just because you chose not to acknowledge them?? Guns, germs, and steel, we got all three, and lots of farmable land to boot.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[duke_cheetah2003]

Not really. The US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade. Sure there would be some dislocations but it would likely remain a superpower.

You don't shop much do you? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find any household items not made in China?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Patent Lover]

Next to the 70's.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[mariox19]

Let me guess...YOU live in the nation with the trustworthy government [...]

What's your point, seriously? Who cares! Look, I'm an American. I really don't give a shit what other countries do, and I don't care if they want to criticize us about this. It's really neither here nor there. Our government is doing something very wrong, something that undermines the whole American Experiment—irrevocably. That's the real topic of conversation here.

Frankly, with the way things are in this country, I hope it begins to pinch our wallets. It's the only way most Americans, from the corporate bigwigs to the politicians to the straphangers and soccer moms in the suburbs, ever take anything seriously. People need to wake up.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

As someone who studied history and lived overseas, the US has its problems. However, it sucks less than other countries. If you profess you are athiest in a good chunk of the world, the locals will have your head, and your family's head, call it an honor killing, and jump with joy.

If you lived in East Germany, step over the wrong line, and you would get machine gunned down for kicks.

No, the US isn't problem free, and the Iraq was the stupidest theater of war on record. However, I can yell epithets about the politicians out the window... and get people clapping. That will get someone killed within hours in a lot of the world.

Realistically, other than Australia, north America, and western Europe, there are not many free countries out there.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Lavabit should have moved the service to facilities in a country which respects freedom and democracy...lacking that option maybe tropical Cuba. There is no way I would have complied with their request.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Your logic is flawed. A non-sequitur is still the handiwork of a Troll.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. The US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade. Sure there would be some dislocations but it would likely remain a superpower.

Really? The United States of Amerika is very dependent upon oil from Canada despite their protestations about environmental concerns. Obama is worse than Bush; a feat I never imagined possible in my lifetime.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

While I agree that, in my lifetime, the USA Federal Government has become the enemy of freedom and "the people", I would add that every Government has the power to destroy anyone they chose at any time they chose. The last vestiges of privacy are held by the bureaucrats in the Obama Government and not the citizens.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Tiger Smile]

This is a false argument. If a country is wrong in what it's doing, it's wrong. The US government is wrong in this case. They should have marrowed the search to specific accounts. They wanted to capture all communication, which cannot be justified without false statements. If it's wrong it's wrong, even if the person pointing it out is in a worse situation. People in far worse countries have always looked to the US to set the example. They have just as much right, if not more, to feel let down. We are not the leaders of the free world as much as we are the leaders of the mass spying on the free world.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[maz2331]

Even today, China's manufacturing is still mostly in the low-value parts of the market. Assembling circuit boards or making PC cases isn't quite like our still vast superiority in real heavy industry. The problem is that our productivity is off the charts via automation instead of labor - we just don't need a big enough labor force in manufacturing to support a large middle class based on those industries.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[rev0lt]

A Chinese and Russian "Snowden" would have quickly disappeared with nobody knowing or caring.

Or not. That's why you have both chinese and russian dissidents. And USA is the country that went after Assange as a 'traitor', regardless of his nationality. From the other side of the pond, USA does look like a police state straight out of 1984 - not only because of the huge levels of incompetence while monitoring people, but also because of what you just said. The level of brainwash that takes for someone to say "my democratic system is better" when its not actually democratic NOR pluralist is an indoctrinator's dream come true. Have a good look at the Roman empire, and why it has fallen. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[jc42]

No, the US isn't problem free, and the Iraq was the stupidest theater of war on record.

Are you sure of that? There's a lot of competition for that title, y'know. Most of the wars in the last couple of decades are serious contenders.

There's yet another one ramping up in the area between Russia and the Black Sea, similar to the American Civil War, but even stupider. In the case of Iraq, Saddam was a seriously evil bastard, with lots of blood on his hands, though of course that didn't come close to justifying what the US did to the Iraqi population (and what Iraqi factions did to each other), so it's pretty far up there on the stupid-meter. But do a bit of reading about the recent history in, say, Rwanda or Kosovo or Cambodia, if you want to see some really over-the-top stupid slaughter of civilian populations for no discernible reason other than the insightful word "theater".

You can also (re-)read Jonathan Swift's tale of Gulliver's Travels, especially the section about the war between the Big-Endians and the Little-Endians, for a good explanation of how such wars get started.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[cavreader]

True freedom is goal to work towards not a utopian destination that can ever be achieved. The freedoms and rights defined in the US Constitution and Bill of Rights were not iron cast declarations of truth that magically changed human behavior over night. Those precepts have been rigorously challenged since the day they were created. The most obvious "All men are created equal.." idea was certainly not true in the most obvious of ways but there have been great strides in trying to reach that mythic goal. People like to argue that US freedom has some how regressed from a perfect state of being but that is simply not true. All you need to do to press for more freedom and rights is to openly and freely be able to express dissenting views without being silenced by the government. Moving large numbers of protesters who infringe on others rights is not the government shutting down dissent. The Occupy protests lasted for weeks before they started really annoying all those that had to work and live in the same area. Creating free speech zones to prevent large crowds from creating real security problems for the President or other government officials is not censorship. It is more like common sense in todays world of suicide bombers and other crazies out looking to make a political statement resulting in body parts being strewn across the scene. And contrary to popular belief the US government has not taken away the right to dissent by banning certain topics or censoring the internet in any form. There are a lot of countries in the world who restrict and censor the internet and other information delivery mechanisms for their citizens. Germany, England, and Australia all filter information one way or another. Of course they don't hold a candle to the amount of censorship that China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Iraq, NK, and quite a few other countries. It is these same countries that are lobbying for the Internet to come under UN control so they can implement their state censorship across the entire world.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure every nation that has ever existed has claimed "freedom" as one of the attributes of its citizens. I've never heard of one that didn't. Can anyone help me out here?

Uh, yeah, good luck convincing the majority of North Korea.

I notice they don't smile much.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[jc42]

You don't shop much do you? Do you have any idea how hard it is to find any household items not made in China?

I didn't find it hard at all in my household (in a western suburb of Boston). I easily found items manufactured in places like Malaysia, the Philippines, Vietnam, and even Japan. Oh, and a couple of items from Scandinavia, too. Not much made in the US, though.

Actually, my wife makes a lot of her own clothes, partly as a hobby, but mostly out of disappointment about the crap sold in local clothing stores. She has been complaining about the slow loss of the local fabric stores. Buying online doesn't work well, because you can't feel the material before ordering it. And most of her favorite fabrics do come from outside the US, though I don't think many are from China. But the "manufacturing" is done very locally, upstairs. ;-)

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

Why would I need to meet your requirements to gain my freedom of speech to decry the abuses of the USA? Or are you saying that so long as the USA is the second worse place on the planet, there's always somewhere worse, therefore, it isn't "that bad" (TM).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C... USA tied for 19/20 so there are 18 countries beating the USA. At least in government corruption.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[xfizik]

You are really not better. You are much worse because in addition to violating human rights, your own laws and constitution, you Americans also have the guts to chastise everybody else for doing the very same things (just on a smaller scale). You are the pinnacle of hypocrisy.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

If he lived in one of the nordic countries? yes, It's the last bastion of freedom on this planet.
Funny how the countries filled with the ancestors of the Vikings are the ones that are not filled to the brim with corrupt scumbag assholes hell bent on controlling it's people.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Lumpy]

not ONE american car company, chevy, ford,chrysler makes american cars. they are ALL made outside the USA or the majority of them are (in parts and assemblies)

BMW and Honda are MORE american made than any other car because they are actually made here with parts made here.

Very VERY little is actualy made here anymore and you an slap a "made in america" sticker on things made of china parts. For example... Harley Davidson bikes are 60% china parts and assembled in Mexico and Canada.

yet the complete morons that buy them think they are riding american.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Lumpy]

"Actually, my wife makes a lot of her own clothes,"
From Chinese textiles.
call me when she buys only American made materials for her clothing.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

Raw GDP includes the "value added" by a microwave heating a patty and served in a McValueless meal. There is no easy way to measure "factory manufacturing", so it comes down to two sides fighting about making the numbers up. Neither numbers are correct, and neither side will work with the other to come up with realistic numbers. From what I can see the US doesn't "make" much anymore. But it's hard to tell. Also, often the "hard" manufacturing is done outside the US, and final assembly is done in the US, distorting and masking the actual manufacturing effort. It's hard to gauge accurately, so anyone who claims to "know" an answer is immediately suspect.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

And a small amount of food, many industrialized nations having rules that exclude the hormoned GMO products from the US. Oranges are about all I see from the USA, and some other less popular fruits. A few high-price clothing lines are still made in the US. And I think mowers, and a few tractors, but the Chinese versions are getting more widely available. And of course luxury items like boats. But yes, Hollywood is one of the largest maker of US exports (certainly the most visible).

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

Go buy a battery (a common thing) that was made in the USA. By anything that runs on electricity that wasn't made in, or contain a chip made in Taiwan, Japan or China. Go on. Try it.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

Like Russia killed Solzhenitsyn? And for all the complaints about Taiwan, we are hearing about it. So either they don't try that hard, or they try really hard and are really bad at it.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Switzerland and Sweden have been pretty good. Switzerland, because it's part of their banking structure's business model to be able to protect their customers. Sweden, because of their constitutional guarantees,and i really applaud them for it.

The Canadians have been pretty good, because they make a pretty penny from US refugees and businesses upset with US abuse.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[phantomfive]

If you lived in East Germany, step over the wrong line, and you would get machine gunned down for kicks.

Honestly, I think we can shoot for a higher quality government than that......

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for a long time https://www.mapi.net/china-has...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[camperdave]

Next to the 70's.

*Facepalm*
Disco - what were we thinking?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[crimson tsunami]

You don't think that would have happened if your government was just a little more competent, and maybe noticed what Snowden was doing, or had managed to catch him when he did a runner?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[jedidiah]

> not ONE american car company, chevy, ford,chrysler makes american cars.

That really doesn't matter because as you yourself point out, there are other companies that have their factories here. That's what ultimately matters. Who owns it isn't relevant as much as who is doing the work.

If anything, that just makes American management look bad.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[meerling]

Not really. He is using a unique pseudonym, so his written statements and reputation can be tracked.
If a criminal investigation in necessitated, it's pretty easy to find out who the real person is that uses that pseudonym.

He's not "hiding behind a pseudonym", rather he is using it to create his own identity in the slashdot community while putting enough separation between himself and those things outside of slashdot that each must be judged on it's own merits, and he won't have his boss breathing down his neck if his opinions differ from those of management.

You on the other hand...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not claiming exception, and you're a pathetic anonymous coward.

Yes you are.

The US government is doing very bad things.

Other people have also done bad things, but we're not talking about them in this discussion, we're talking about the USA, and how we want them to stop doing bad things.

You should be moderated offtopic at least, and most probably troll/flamebait, given your other efforts in this discussion.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Currently Awake committed no such fallacy,

alice: X is true
bob: X is proof of Y
carol: bob is wrong about Y because he is (or is not) type of person Z.

accepting a premise and using it as the basis of a further premise isn't a logical fallacy. Trying to refute a premise by arguing about the person raising the premise rather than addressing the point raised is a logical fallacy.

And no way am I posting this as anything other than AC as history has shown that logical fallacies are only useful as a source of self education, I'm yet to see them be useful in an actual discussion. Always blows into an argument of 'no, I didn't do this fallacy, oh yeah, if I did then _he_ did a fallacy first'.

If you think of calling someone out on a logical fallacy, don't bother, it never helps. If someone calls you out on one, don't argue about it, you are either wrong, or it won't help. Examine it, think carefully yourself about whether you are doing it (ignore what you may think others are doing), and either adjust or don't adjust accordingly.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[SvnLyrBrto]

From the US side of the pond, it looks a bit more like Brazil than 1984.

But still, considering that China's not shy about rolling tanks in on their dissidents and Russia's fondness for the effects of ricin and polonium; we're still a few steps above the opposition.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[SvnLyrBrto]

You'll probably want to drop Sweden from the list; considering they're acting as the bagman for DC's efforts to get their hands on Julian Assange.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

The founding fathers of the United States of America had a plan to deal with this...

Of course in their day the difference in power between the people and governing bodies was very different.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[msmonroe]

This guy might have been a dumb-ass; 90% of the government is incompetent anyway and the other 10% has their heads up their ass. I'd just give them the encryption keys then change the keys; you're supposed to change the keys every 30 days right? It's not my fault they didn't get the new keys. Or I would kick the cord loose on the box if it was hardware or whatever; it's not my fault if their incompetent. I'd make sure the sh*t didn't work right no matter what, while trying to follow the supposed "LAW".

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Askmum]

The point. You're missing it completely.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Askmum]

There is a difference between spying on your citizens and ordering businesses to help you spy on citizens and in the process sue them, deprive them of justice and generally treat them like they are Bin Laden incarnated.
I'm sure there are not a whole lot of countries that would go that far. Maybe countries like North Korea, Cuba and yes, the USA.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[rvw]

Frankly, with the way things are in this country, I hope it begins to pinch our wallets. It's the only way most Americans, from the corporate bigwigs to the politicians to the straphangers and soccer moms in the suburbs, ever take anything seriously. People need to wake up.

It's not the only way. It's the only way you can think of, but there is one other way, by being occupied - by external or internal forces. But of course you could still stay with your argument because that still hurts in the wallet.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[X.25]

Not really. The US is not particularly dependent on foreign trade. Sure there would be some dislocations but it would likely remain a superpower.

I don't think you understand where those 17 trillion are coming from and how that game works.

I am not sure if you are a product of wishful thinking or you people seriously believe in what you say.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

(in a western suburb of Boston)

As opposed to those eastern suburbs of Boston.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

The 80s were the worst thing to ever happen to us.

Not the 80s just Ronald Reagan.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[gl4ss]

"Realistically, other than Australia, north America, and western Europe, there are not many free countries out there."

umm yeah. so why choose to compare to easy countries?

I mean, Finland can kick most countries in the world in hockey, but we haven't had many world championships but still try for that every year.. even if it's blatantly obvious we would beat Ghana in hockey any day of the week.

and you know what's different between DDR and USA? in former DDR they're trying to reconcile with their history of power abuse.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the only way. It's the only way you can think of, but there is one other way, by being occupied...

Didn't that end up in a bunch of people who were just sitting around getting tasered and pepper-sprayed for their trouble?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't own many things made in USA (I try to avoid them), but I own many things made in Europe, mostly Germany.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the GP.

Let's look at you, for a moment. There you are, drawing - hell, not even drawing, pushing conclusions about someone's character simply because they aren't logged in. That seems like an "attack the person, not the message" fallacy.

Perhaps he/she, like me, had an account years ago and lost the password?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Megol]

You'll probably want to drop Sweden from the list; considering they're acting as the bagman for DC's efforts to get their hands on Julian Assange.

Please look at the facts before spouting (off topic) bullshit.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[cheekyboy]

and your a pathetic 2556640 , look, americans buy up lots of companies, not everything was invented by americans, just funded by them, and their fake dollars ;)

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Relativierender Geschichtsrelativismus

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[xenobyte]

You'll probably want to drop Sweden from the list; considering they're acting as the bagman for DC's efforts to get their hands on Julian Assange.

Please look at the facts before spouting (off topic) bullshit.

What facts? - The facts I know supports what SvnLyrBrto is saying.

Both Sweden and the UK are going above and beyond to get their hands on Julian Assange in connection with an insignificant charge of alleged rape of two women who both had consensual sex with him and later changed their minds. This screams bullshit, scam, and 'bad excuse' to get their hands on him, as none of these countries have ever made an effort like this to get at a real rapist - one of those that grab people on the street and rapes them - so it makes no sense not to just have a warrant issued at Interpol and then have him arrested the next time he crosses a border.

No, the UK police actually sits 24/7 outside the Ecuadorian embassy in London waiting for him to leave the building, and have done so for years now, and the Swedish police insists that they want to question him on Swedish ground, not using a video link or face to face at the embassy where he stays. This also makes no sense and is totally out of character. People appear in Swedish courts using video feeds from hospital beds and similar all the time, and they travel often to interview witnesses or similar outside Sweden. Even mass murderers get less attention than Julian Assange.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[S.O.B.]

Perhaps he/she, like me, had an account years ago and lost the password?

And somehow lost the ability to create a new account? Nice try.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought the white house got burned down

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny how the countries filled with the ancestors of the Vikings

You got the time machine working then? :)

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

With regard to Russia Sergei Magnitsky & Alexander Litvinenko are actually dead. Who knows how many others have died without us knowing. Countries that treat their citizens like shit tend to have more dissidents than those that don't so they have more people to quiten even if they are more brutal about it. While I have my problems with the USA, the rest of the EU and my own country, the UK we shouldn't forget who our friends are when the chips are down. I can see trade disputes with NAFTA, but I can see war with Russia.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of mowers (good ones anyhow) were/are actually made in Japan (like the old Ford LGT-16D/other New Holland tractors) and imported into the US, in parts or whole, and sold under US brand names

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[ganjadude]

most people understand that when it comes to manufacturing, economy of scales are at work. However the design team is in america, the R&D team is in america, the literal only thing that happens outside of the country in the case of GM and ford* is the actual manufacturing.

* im talking about ford and GM for north america, both do have design studios around the world however

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anarchy24]

Hear hear!! I wish I had mod points for you. Call a terrorist what it is.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a pretty dumb guess.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. Russia, China, US, all exactly the same when it comes to dissidents. As the poster above points out, the only real difference is the US has got you saying 'but we are better!'. Who would you rather play with on the playground? The bully you know is coming after you, or the snake who sneaks up behind and cuts your throat? Which can you defend against better?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Fruchtenstein]

136 people were gunned down at the Berlin wall. Number of people killed every year on the American-Mexican border is almost four times higher.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[greg23s]

Yes and the 25 Ford plants located in the US make coconuts... http://corporate.ford.com/our-... In 2013 there were 4,540,985 cars made in the US which was good enough for 5th place in the world: http://www.statisticbrain.com/...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Our government is not trustworthy and corruption is well known.

Because it's still a fucking democracy and no police or judge would ever ask an innocent to hand out his passwords.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

s/Because/But

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[DriveDog]

as much as

True, but it does matter. Profits flow to headquarters and to the owners, and HQ employees and residents of their locations are affected by that. There are good reasons communities bid against one another to become the locations of corporate headquarters. "Prestige" isn't the only reason.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[DriveDog]

I was going to argue that in the 70s things were moving in the right direction while in the 80s the reverse was true. But then you brought up Disco. Oh well.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

you're 17 trillion in debt, or about 80% of GDP. when will it hurt again? oh right, when you're dead, gone and your grandchildren toil away to pay off your debts.

UMERICA!

Re: USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey my poo smells like raspberry sorbet!!

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[nabsltd]

136 people were gunned down at the Berlin wall. Number of people killed every year on the American-Mexican border is almost four times higher.

The difference between those numbers is that East Germany was trying to keep people from leaving, making the country one giant prison.

Right or wrong, the US is just trying to keep people without documentation from coming in to the country.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[dave420]

So that's a resounding "yes" then. You do realise if you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend the US isn't what it is, that it will never get better? The US is in the unique position of calling itself, repeatedly, "the land of the free and the home of the brave". You are showing that not only is the US not the bastion of freedom it claims to be, that you are not even brave enough to do anything about it. I'm sure you still feel proud when you sing the national anthem, but deep down you should feel a bit embarrassed as you hypocritically sing along. You are the reason the US is in the state it's in - you are so blinded by notions of what the US claims to be that you ignore what it actually has become. Your ancestors would be deeply ashamed of you.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

What is amazing is the number of highly intelligent people who believe that they can work within the rules of a corrupt system, and have their work override those rules.

If the government does not want you to have privacy, and you're following what the government tells you to do, then why on Earth would you expect to succeed in your quest to give people privacy?

The first step is to admit that you're an outlaw, and that the US government is by and large your enemy. You don't need a second step, because after that, you'll be flying.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[parkinglot777]

Where freedom refers to the the government being free to fuck you over as much as they want!

After I now read from both sides (court record posted in an article on here earlier - http://yro.slashdot.org/story/... - and the other is this one), it confirms that both sides (government & Levison) were playing politic and game with each other in order to prove themselves right. Sadly, the government is holding better cards.

TFA did not mention about Levison asking for money the first time in order to comply with what the government asked for which could change certain thought about him. He also didn't mention about what he did to stir government agent's anger (11-page of 4pt font print out of encryption key). Of course, who is going to write something that could discriminate oneself?

Anyway, readers should listen with one ear and keep the other ear. Whole heartedly believe in one side of the story would just enhance the bias. Pondering about reasons and try to understand the situation would give much better constructive thought.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

One wonders what china will do when the US defaults on those treasuries. Outside of declaring war, they don't have an option for recourse. Its not like they can come foreclose on government owned US assets. I grant that such a default will cause economic issues on a widespread scale, but i sometimes wonder if this is a planned maneuver to crush China. What will happen in China when those assets suddenly become worthless?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

The Supreme Court has ruled time and again you may speak anonymously precisely so people can't track you down and harass you.

The one exception is donating to a campaign for express advocacy, advocating the election or defeat of a particular candidate.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Raenex]

That's why you have both chinese and russian dissidents.

Russian and Chinese dissidents often end up in jail or dead. In China, the government censors everything.

And USA is the country that went after Assange as a 'traitor', regardless of his nationality.

Those were some stupid politicians talking. Was there ever an actual charge? A warrant? No.

The level of brainwash that takes for someone to say "my democratic system is better" when its not actually democratic NOR pluralist is an indoctrinator's dream come true.

So you say, but look in the mirror. Could you have a Tea Party in China, one that had successful elections against establishment Republicans? Where is the debate between even two parties in China? There isn't, as it's one party. Say what you want about Democrats and Republicans being a "single" party, but they do differ on a lot of issues.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[tibit]

It's much easier than it was in the year 2000, as far as I can tell. There are quite a few products at the local dollar store that are, in fact, made in the U.S.A. Same goes for home improvement stores - I've started to find U.S.-made tools.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[david_thornley]

Really? I don't think that makes sense.

First, Britain has shown no reluctance to extradite to the US. Why transfer to Sweden, where it would be more controversial, and in addition illegal (Snowden would legally have to be sent back to Britain).

Second, despite some loudmouth politicians, I know of no actual expressed desire of any US government to get hold of Assange. That doesn't mean there isn't one, but it's another questionable assumption going into that belief.

Third, the accounts of two women tell of rape, in the sense of unwanted sex. I'm not saying they're truthful, but there is good reason to investigate further. (Just because a woman is planning to have sex with a man, or had such sex last night, doesn't mean she can't be raped.)

Fourth, almost all the information I've got on this comes from Assange and his fans. In past cases, I've seen that there's usually another side to the story, and frequently that side has reason not to comment. I don't know why Sweden wants him sent there, but then I don't know Swedish jurisprudence and I don't trust everybody who claims to do so.

This doesn't mean that the paranoid Assange fans are necessarily incorrect, but that there is another side of the story, and there's plenty of room for doubt. Since I believe in "Innocent until proven guilty", I am going to cast no aspersions on Sweden without knowing considerably more.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

The idea that the US doesn't make much any more is total bullshit.

Boeing, for example runs the world's largest manufacturing facility in Everett WA.

General Motors, Ford and Chrysler - Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai-Kia, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru and VW all have U.S. manufacturing facilities. Many of these facilities export to the Far East and Europe.

Nor is manufacturing limited to production of machinery. The US is a massive agricultural and food production powerhouse. It's mining and energy output is huge, and even with it's internal consumption of petroleum products it also manages to be a net exporter of refined petroleum products.

Then there is the semi-conductor, heavy machinery etc industries. Intel and Caterpillar anyone?

While China surpassed the United States in 2012, the US is still 2nd in the world, and greater than Germany, Korea, Italy, Brazil, India, Japan and Russia combined.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

The big 3 all run auto plants in the US. Some US made cars like the Ford Explorer have just as much US content as anyone's.

Some 13 other car companies also build cars in the US, with up to 80% US manufactured content, like the Hondas you noted.

As far as Harley goes, surely that is not comparable in volume to a major car company.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

So which would you rather be making? High value stuff like airliners with a good markup or cheap mass market Wal-Mart goods that will get moved to another country as soon as your people start making half-way decent wages because the markups are too low to pay to automate their manufacture.

Guess what country is loosing manufacturing jobs the fastest. Ans: China.

Japan found out the limits of a mercantile economy decades ago.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Calavar]

Yes, but they weren't shot dead. They died trying to swim across rivers or walk through the desert. I'm not saying that what the US does on the Mexican border is right, but there is no comparing it to what happened at the Berlin wall.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

So what? China is growing faster. They should, they have what 4x the US population and they still have most of their people living in shitholes.

The US is far more developed, with a FAR higher per capita income and they STILL manage to have a good manufacturing output growth rate. Higher growth than pretty much anywhere except China and Korea. Even better it's high value stuff like heavy machinery, not sneakers and other low value crap.

The idea that US doesn't manufacture is bullshit. Furthermore what they manufacture is much higher value, far higher technical content and much harder to compete with than what comes out of places like China.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[TangoMargarine]

There is nothing more stupid that someone hiding behind a pseudonym calling out an anonymous coward.

How about an AC calling out a pseudonymous person calling out an AC?

I really don't get why some posters obsess about AC vs. pseudonym. If you want to be taken seriously, you make an account. If you've already made an account and people mod you down for being stupid, you start posting as AC.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[TangoMargarine]

EVERY developed (and some not so developed) country spies on its citizens. The only reason ANY country would not do as much as the US is doing is PURELY due to lack of budget/technology.

Or, y'know, because the foundational Constitution explicitly forbid it.

Potaytoe, Potahtoe.

That you cannot imagine a better country does not mean that such a possible future does not exist.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[TangoMargarine]

Because the U.S. government totally didn't try to stop Snowden from going public.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[TangoMargarine]

Sweden is try to charge him with rape and you're interpreting "innocent until proven guilty" to apply to the prosecutors? Ummm...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[TangoMargarine]

If I had no choice but to sell out my users to the government, I might be a bit snarky about it, too.

(granted he did have a choice...stop offering the service...which just inconveniences the users in a lesser way)

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

Here's a website that lists USA made batteries.

http://www.batterystuff.com/ma...

DONE.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

Oh poop. The US trade deficit last year was about 500 billion. Sounds like a lot, right?

Nope. That's 1% of the US GDP.

ONE PERCENT.

And most of that is foreign oil, something that is rapidly being replaced by domestic oil.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

The US trade deficit is about 500 billion, out of 17 trillion, and most of that is oil which is currently being replaced by US sources.

Sure, maybe there will be a shortage of sneakers and similar crap for a while.

That is not something that will stop you from being a superpower.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

I was thinking AAA/AA/C/D/CR2032, but yes, there are batteries made in the USA.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

Dave420--

The "Your mom" was a GIGO reply. Don't take it so seriously. Your perception of my character is far from the mark. Have another hit.

Dr. Jones

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

"americans have priced themselves out of base manufacturing"

translation:

"A country whose citizens enjoy civil rights (most of the time) and reasonable minimum standards of living (ditto) cannot compete economically (at least in manufacturing) with countries that employ slave labor."

We can no longer justify buying chinese products simply because they are cheaper. We need to halt our importation of manufactured goods and start producing them here again. Sure, it'll drive prices up, but when they stabilize, we'll have a functioning middle class again.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Agent0013]

They think they are immune to all sorts of repercussions. But past use of medical (vaccine) personnel to catch a terrorist (Osama Bin Laden) has led to large numbers of medical people being killed on sight. Now we are looking at the failure to permanently wipe out polio due to a short sighted administration and their desire for quick results.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Agent0013]

China uses tanks. Russia uses ricin and polonium. The US poisons them (Brittany Murphy) and tells the news that it was a drug overdose, or takes control of their car remotely (Michael Hastings) and drives it off the road at high speed. I am pretty sure there are many more very suspicious deaths of people that knew too much or asked the wrong questions. Hell, they can straight up shoot them and claim the officer was in the right as it was defensive or merely accidental.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[jc42]

(in a western suburb of Boston)

As opposed to those eastern suburbs of Boston.

I guess so; Revere, Glosta and P-town are all rather different from the town I live in - and from each other. But then, so are the towns to the west and south of this town, which are among the wealthiest in the state.

(Hmm ... It occurs to me that you might have been making a joke. Well, the funniest jokes are often the ones that have a strong reality component. ;-)

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

wow, butt hurt much?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[the eric conspiracy]

Oh you wanted AAA?

Here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/Duracell...

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[david_thornley]

Why would that be a problem? I have no knowledge that the prosecutors are doing anything improper. I have no firm knowledge that Assange did anything improper. I'm not going to accuse the Swedish government of misconduct any more than I'm going to claim Assange raped two women.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[AK Marc]

Oh, last pack I grabbed, they were made in China. http://www.cheap-batteries.com...

Looks like they make in both places now, and I just get Chinese ones.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[rev0lt]

Russian and Chinese dissidents often end up in jail or dead. In China, the government censors everything.

Except the ones that run away. Starts sounding familiar, right?

Those were some stupid politicians talking. Was there ever an actual charge? A warrant? No.

Are you fucking kidding me? American companies seizing assets from foreigners (paypal, mastercard, etc); Widespread political pressure to send the guy to the US; The fact that the USA is the only democratic country with concentration camps that is not sanctioned by the UN at any level; USA cannot issue an international warrant for his capture without being laughed at; That didn't stop them. At all.

So you say, but look in the mirror. Could you have a Tea Party in China, one that had successful elections against establishment Republicans?

Sure. You have right-wing batshit crazy people everywhere you can get a wealthy median-class lifestyle. Some of them even get elected.

Where is the debate between even two parties in China?

Where is the debate between two parties in the US? The illusion of choice is not the same as choice. And since lobbyists control both sides, its more about keeping apearences than "the people". Your democratic system is a knotch above a middle-eastern country.

Say what you want about Democrats and Republicans being a "single" party, but they do differ on a lot of issues.

No they don't. One defends wealthy people and interest groups by catering to a more conservative agenda, and the other one goes a more liberal approach. There is no actual difference. Want proof? Move to another country and see the difference.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[rev0lt]

Who knows how many others have died without us knowing.

You could say the same about the US. In fact, you could assume that, for every Snowden, you have 10 guys in guantanamo with the same info. Or in a secret detention camp somewhere around the world. Russia doesn't really care about international propaganda, USA does - thats why you have a different perception of both countries. I'd assume Russia is nearby; When it was the last time Russia invaded a country on the other side of the world?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily. E.g. Saudi Arabia does not claim any specific freedoms. It just claims to follow the Sharia. Any freedoms included thereof will be protected, at least in theory, all others - tough luck. E.g. freedom of religion or non-discrimination by gender are not even declared.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[uCallHimDrJ0NES]

If you're an American, you can't be trusted, per the comment from Cheeky I'm objecting to. In this context, why should your comments be admissible?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[dryeo]

You do know that the Communist Party of China has liberal and conservative wings and power swaps every 8 years between the wings. Other wings can also rise up through the Communist Party (which is actually more fascist then communist now). It's much like America except they don't have a popularity contest to change leaders but go more for merit and debate occurs more behind closed doors.
In a functioning democracy the tea party would have been a separate party rather then having to work in the confines of the existing party and if actually popular would have won seats in government.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[dryeo]

Canada's current government is also pretty pro-USA and would deliver Assange instantly even if illegally. They've already done it with others such as Marc Emory, a seed seller who the Americans really wanted and is now sitting in an American jail even though legally he should not have been extradited as selling seeds in Canada is good for a couple of hundred dollar fine at the most and extradition is supposed to be for comparable crimes and punishments.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Raenex]

Except the ones that run away. Starts sounding familiar, right?

Do you mean Snowden? He was a government contractor that released state secrets. I think he should be protected as a whistleblower, but the government at least has a reasonable case for prosecution.

What I'm talking about our political voices that constantly speak out in opposition to the government. Fox News is a channel dedicated to speaking out against the Democrats and the President's agenda, and that's just one example. You don't get something like that in China. If you do that, you go to jail.

Are you fucking kidding me? American companies seizing assets from foreigners (paypal, mastercard, etc);

Yes, the financial pressure was despicable.

Widespread political pressure to send the guy to the US; The fact that the USA is the only democratic country with concentration camps that is not sanctioned by the UN at any level; USA cannot issue an international warrant for his capture without being laughed at; That didn't stop them. At all.

Give me a break. Assange was traveling freely. If the US wanted him extradited to face charges, they could have done so. You don't have anything here but bluster.

Where is the debate between two parties in the US? The illusion of choice is not the same as choice. And since lobbyists control both sides, its more about keeping apearences than "the people". Your democratic system is a knotch above a middle-eastern country.

There is a real debate, and it's not an illusion just because you are blind and deaf to it. The Democrats are generally in favor of higher taxes and more social spending. The Republicans are opposed. Obamacare was opposed by Republicans. Republicans oppose raising the minimum wage.

One defends wealthy people and interest groups by catering to a more conservative agenda, and the other one goes a more liberal approach. There is no actual difference. Want proof? Move to another country and see the difference.

There is a difference, it's just that you want to handwave it away and pretend that the US is on equal footing with Russia and China.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

Other countries don't make a big thing about being the land of the free and brave. The US does, despite that you aren't either.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Raenex]

It's much like America except they don't have a popularity contest to change leaders but go more for merit and debate occurs more behind closed doors.

Sounds like you are defending this garbage.

In a functioning democracy the tea party would have been a separate party rather then having to work in the confines of the existing party and if actually popular would have won seats in government.

They made their voices heard and had impact as a result, including winning seats (albeit within a party). Sounds like democracy to me.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[murkwood7]

Where freedom refers to the the government being free to fuck you over as much as they want!

With apologies to Mr. Greenwood:

"..and I'm proud to be an American, where at least I think I'm freeeeee..."

Probably shouldn'ta said that.

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[murkwood7]

Where freedom refers to the the government being free to fuck you over as much as they want!

With apologies to Mr. Greenwood:

"..and I'm proud to be an American, where at least I think I'm freeeeee..."

Probably shouldn'ta said that.

Ah, there is a sound like that of an lp being brought to an abrubt halt that would be apropriate at the end of that quote! Could anyone tell me how to represent that on "paper"?

Re:USA, the land of freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

If he lived in one of the nordic countries? yes, It's the last bastion of freedom on this planet.
Funny how the countries filled with the ancestors of the Vikings are the ones that are not filled to the brim with corrupt scumbag assholes hell bent on controlling it's people.

Uruguay is currently considered the third world and yet still has a far higher ranked democracy than the US. Look into it, calling the US the 19/20th is a stretch these days, we're really in decline when measured on issues in which we used to be very strong.

Paging Oslo

[oldhack]

Give Obama another nobel.

Re:Paging Oslo

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not like they really had that much credibility to begin with. They gave the peace prize to Kissinger as well.

Re:Paging Oslo

[Sarius64]

At least Kissinger did something. At the point Obama received the Peace prize his sole achievements in life consisted of opening multiple opponents divorce records.

Re:Paging Oslo

[Anonymous Coward]

Leave Al Gore out of this.

Re:Paging Oslo

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad to hear your mom got a Nobel!

Re:Paging Oslo

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

It was a slap in the face to Bush. As such, Obama should have refused to dignify the award regardless of how much he may have agreed with the slap.

Re:Paging Oslo

[david_thornley]

Actually, Obama did some good things in his first days.

Really, the Nobel was for him not being Bush. He's been disappointing in that regard.

Re:Paging Oslo

[Anonymous Coward]

Kissinger was still more deserving than Obama

Re:Paging Oslo

[g.parrondo]

They gave the peace prize to Kissinger as well.

Also, on 1906 they gave it to Theodore Roosevelt. "No triumph of peace is quite so great as the supreme triumph of war"

Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't suppose they've considered locating a new service outside the US? The sad truth is that anybody who's looking to run a private service needs to look outside of the US.

Re:Why not leave?

[houstonbofh]

I don't suppose they've considered locating a new service outside the US? The sad truth is that anybody who's looking to run a private service needs to look outside of the US.

It doesn't help. Just ask Kim Dotcom about Megaupload... Right now, none of the Internet is "free" and it will take some major changes to make it so.

Re:Why not leave?

[sumdumass]

It seems to me like he handled it a bit badly. Constitutionally, the federal government is not allowed to take private property for public use without just compensation. That is what they were doing with installing the devices and all.

I would have made a constitutional argument in court that the NSA and Federal government is using my network for public gain therefor I am entitle to just compensation according to the constitution and then lay out the ins and outs of it in the case. Perhaps he still can and claim damages for how it ruined his business in the process.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the Internetz really can't route around "damage"

Re:Why not leave?

[nctritech]

Especially when "damage" = "The USA" eh?

Re:Why not leave?

[PPH]

I would have made a constitutional argument in court

Good luck rounding up legal representation from a cell in Gitmo. Any attempt to make a legal argument around the details of NSA's request would have them shut down as hindering national security. Push the issue and you're a terrorist and off to a little resort in the Caribbean for you.

Re:Why not leave?

[Knightman]

Well, the MU raid was a cluster fuck of epic proportions. On the other hand I can't say that Kim Dotcom was wholly innocent either.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

The third amendment forbids quartering of troops in peacetime without consent. I'd argue that the there is no distinction between monitoring equipment and troops. Troops don't have to be human. We may one day have a droid army, so is the government free to post one in each business to monitor its activity?

Re:Why not leave?

[myowntrueself]

It seems to me like he handled it a bit badly. Constitutionally, the federal government is not allowed to take private property for public use without just compensation.

wait, isn't that what they are doing with fines?? Taking private property (money) for public use (paying for policing) without just compensation.

Re:Why not leave?

[duke_cheetah2003]

Good luck rounding up legal representation from a cell in Gitmo. Any attempt to make a legal argument around the details of NSA's request would have them shut down as hindering national security. Push the issue and you're a terrorist and off to a little resort in the Caribbean for you.

I think this is a stretch of imagination. If the USA was a bad as this statement makes us appear to be, then why is Ladar Levison free and able to talk to us? I would think he'd have disappeared without a sound and Lavabit would've been confiscated quietly.

While I agree, the Police States of America are getting a bit out of hand, it ain't quite this bad. Not yet at least. Headed there, but I like to believe it's not too late to take a different road.

Re:Why not leave?

[rogoshen1]

You just gave an NSA agent a surprise erection.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just today, someone talked about exactly that, in a comment about winning a suit about a crash of an incoming vehicle onto another stopped in the middle of the street: just because someone is wrong, that doesn't entitle anyone to commit an illegality.

The USA should not kidnap a non-national from inside another country. No buts.

Re:Why not leave?

[gnasher719]

The third amendment forbids quartering of troops in peacetime without consent. I'd argue that the there is no distinction between monitoring equipment and troops.

You could argue that. If there is a judge involved, he wouldn't be blinded by the splendour of your argument. He would conclude that you are an obnoxious little twat making fun of him and the court, and treat you accordingly. I'm not saying that's what you are, but that's what the judge would assume. He would therefore decide against you whenever there is any leeway in a decision.

Re:Why not leave?

[sumdumass]

No.. Fines are punishment for acts against the law. You are afforded due process of the law or your waive that by just paying the fines but it's an option if you don't agree with the fine. Fees are just that too, payment for services rendered or permits or whatever.

Taking private property for public use is more like the cop showing up and insisting on using your home for a stake out against your will. It's like taking your patented drug and manufacturing it for the masses because of some outbreak. It's like giving everyone a copy of your song, America the Beautiful because it sounds patriotic. It's like the government deciding the new freeway will go through your living room.

When the government deprives you of anything you own, they must justly compensate you. The English used to storm a farm and slaughter all the livestock and raid the root cellar to feed it's troops as it marched to wherever they wanted. I believe the original intend was to make sure the people were compensated if the US did anything like that.

Re:Why not leave?

[jonwil]

Just pick a country that isn't friendly to the USA in the way the kiwis are. Someone who wont hand things over when the US government and its agencies come knocking.

Re:Why not leave?

[Sabriel]

Given the stakes that would be required to just get to the point where you're making that argument in front of a federal judge, I'd hope that judge would have more intelligence than to respond in the manner you suggest.

Griswold v. Connecticut (1965) included the Third in its majority decision as implying a belief that a home should be free from agents of the state, so precedent does exist. And in this modern age where agents of the state can be "present" in your homes 24/7 via electronic means, what exactly does "quartered" now encompass?

Re:Why not leave?

[Lumpy]

I suggest you re read the patriot act. There is a section that allows them to get around that and other pesky amendments.

Re:Why not leave?

[tragedy]

You could argue that. If there is a judge involved, he wouldn't be blinded by the splendour of your argument.

Of course, the same judge will wisely and sagely nod along in complete agreement when the government is arguing that ubiquitous surveillance and tracking in public is ok because a surveillance camera connected to a massive computational back end is just like a patrol cop.

Re:Why not leave?

[AK Marc]

I think this is a stretch of imagination. If the USA was a bad as this statement makes us appear to be, then why is Ladar Levison free and able to talk to us? I would think he'd have disappeared without a sound and Lavabit would've been confiscated quietly.

What makes you think they don't allow a few through to give the illusion of rule of law. Those that did get sent to Gitmo didn't make the news.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

So China or Russia then. Good luck with that.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm slight problem there... You're currently at war, remember?

War on Terror
War on Drugs
War on whateverelsetheycanthinkof

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dotcom was not wholly innocent? Kim Dotcom's company was shutdown and seized by a foreign country under the allegation that the company was doing copyright infringement. His company did no such thing, it was his users that were infringing copyright. MU was totally innocent of infringing copyright.

Re:Why not leave?

[SlovakWakko]

I can imagine operating Lavabit-type of service in some European country. EU's grip on the internet is much weaker than that of the NSA, and recent efforts towards strengthening online privacy give me the reason to believe that it would be difficult to actually shut down such a service. Provisions for obtaining private data through a court order exist also in the EU so there is a legal way for the government to go after criminals who would use it, and with the recent revelations of how thoroughly has the EU been penetrated by NSA (literally as well as figuratively), spinning it as moving from the no-longer-free USA to the still-free EU would also help to protect the service - should anyone try to lay a heavy hand on the service, I think that it would quickly escalate into a discussion in the European Parliament and a lot of scathing titles in big newspapers. Other indications - for example how big are current EU research grant calls in ICT on online privacy, security and trust - also make me believe that Lavabit could work here. So don't hesitate, come here and be free again, guys ;) Also, I don't think that the MU case is pertinent here, as it happened in a US colony.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Constitution supersedes any act of Congress.

Re:Why not leave?

[Megol]

Dotcom was not wholly innocent? Kim Dotcom's company was shutdown and seized by a foreign country under the allegation that the company was doing copyright infringement. His company did no such thing, it was his users that were infringing copyright. MU was totally innocent of infringing copyright.

Which is why the company paid good money to people uploading _know_ pirated material, sharing and discussing the same _known_ pirated material within the company and discussing how to increase the inflow of _known_ pirated material into their system. And much more.

Only an idiot would think he and the rest of the company was innocent. Dotcom have always been a two-faced crook, this is well known and documented. He's not even a honest crook as he ratted out others.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

More fairy tales from the home front? You're in the middle of it. Wake up.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

Quartering of troops was not about the presence of monitors. It was about the imposition of costs - lodging and meals - without compensation. Quartering of troops, in 1776, was another way for the government to get money out of the colonists without their acquiescence or argument.

I suppose, you might argue that installed monitoring devices consume electricity and floor/rack space, and therefore represent an imposed cost, but I think you'll have trouble arguing that this cost is burdensome. In fact, my recollection is that most of the companies rumored to host such devices are also rumored to receive substantial compensation.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

You would have folded like a cheap suit, champ.

Its easy to make these grand claims when it is not your life/livelihood at stake.

Re:Why not leave?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Congress specifically decided not to actually declare war on terror because then all the insurance policies covering destruction and death on 9/11 would deactivate because they don't pay out for acts of war.

I assume subsequent policies have tightened up the language.

Re:Why not leave?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was also kind of hard to plot a revolution when the person in charge of shooting you for uprising is sitting at the other end of the table.

"ooooye, lovely roast ye 'ad tonight. Off t' yer "poker night" again I gather? Who did ya say you played with?"

Re:Why not leave?

[david_thornley]

How many people have been nabbed in the US and sent to Gitmo? Gitmo was and is a travesty of international law and the reasoning employed to evade the Constitution is specious in the extreme, but I'd like to hear at least one verifiable horror story of a US citizen being arrested in the US and sent there before I believe the bogeyman stories.

Re:Why not leave?

[TangoMargarine]

+1 First Good Argument Involving the 3rd Amendment I've Ever Heard

Re:Why not leave?

[TangoMargarine]

The last officially declared war by Congress was World War II.

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not surprised in the least. The US has had a history of being very crypto unfriendly. It's the reason why a lot of crypto code is written off US soil. If you were going to create a company revolving around encryption, I'd assume you'd be smart enough to found it outside US borders, or at the very least be able to see this coming from a mile away if you didn't.

Release all the code ...

[Anonymous Coward]

... open source.

Re:Release all the code ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? I don't think you understand what you read.

Yes, I am being sarcastic. Don't be a fuckwit.

[Anonymous Coward]

How dare you question the great leader! You fucking racist piece of shit!

Tremendous Respect

[Phrogman]

for this guy who was willing to shut down his business rather than betray his principles and his customers. Note that the government doesn't appear to have wanted the passwords and encryption keys for specific individuals, they wanted the whole fucking lot.

I guess "Don't Tread on Me!" has been transformed to "Go Ahead and Trample Me!" :P

Re:Tremendous Respect

[clarkkent09]

The truth behind the story is that the government had a court warrant "to monitor a particular Lavabit user's metadata (name not disclosed, most likely Snowden), defined as 'information about each communication sent or received by the account, including the date and time of the communication, the method of communication, and the source and destination of the communication.'" He refused to comply with a court order and provide the metadata (email headers, not the body) after which the prosecutors obtained a warrant for SLL keys. Warrants for email headers are commonly obtained in criminal investigations and its not unusual or surprising that they wanted Snowden's as he is a subject of federal investigation for multiple serious crimes.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[tquasar]

Was Ladar successful in protecting his company and customers privacy? He can not acknowledge nor deny that the government got access. He's not living in his own embassy or sharing quarters with Snowden so where's the answer. Being aware of security issues, was he able to do an emergency dump of data? A Fail-Safe scenario?

Re:Tremendous Respect

[sjames]

Did you read TFA at all? They were supposed to look at just one user's metadata but tried to expand it to cover all users data and metadata so they could have themselves a nice fishing expedition.

He didn't refuse to comply, he just needed some time to get advice on what he ACTUALLY had to do to comply. Being stuck under a gag order certainly didn't speed up that process. The feds were mad because when they said jump, he didn't salute and ask how high before the echo of their words faded.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[clarkkent09]

This is a better article than Guardian crap: http://www.wired.com/2013/10/l...

- June 28 - warrant for metadata for one user
- Lavabit fails to comply
- July 16 - warant for SSL keys
- Lavabit freaks out and still refuses to comply
- August 5 court threatens contempt and $5,000/day fine and Lavabit shuts down

Not making a comment on who is right. It's just misleading to ignore the first part hence you've been mislead.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[vux984]

The truth behind the story is [...]

That a small business owner is ill-equipped to deal with the weight of the federal government coming down on him.

We learned that you can't go from nothing to fighting the FBI and NSA on constitutional grounds in the space of a few days. You won't even FIND a lawyer able to take up your case; nevermind be able to bring him up to speed, and get him the evidence you need, and have him prepare an actual defense for you; especially when everything is under seal, and secret gag orders.

He refused to comply with a court order and provide the metadata (email headers, not the body) after which the prosecutors obtained a warrant for SLL keys.

His version of the story contradicts that claim. I doubt you have authoritative inside knowledge as to the truth here.

Warrants for email headers are commonly obtained in criminal investigations and its not unusual or surprising that they wanted Snowden's as he is a subject of federal investigation for multiple serious crimes.

Have you read the warrant? Some how I doubt it. Because he's claiming they wanted a lot more than that.

The general consensus is that he handled his defense poorly, and as a result made things worse for himself. What this interview shone the spotlight on is that his 'poor handling' of his defense was, in many respects, entirely beyond his control -- trapped between tight deadlines, restrictive sealed gag orders, being a '3rd party' to the actual case instead of an actual defendant, and not having a lawyer already lined up and primed meant that he was effectively denied justice by these process constraints put on him.

I think he makes a good care here.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[sjames]

I'm going to go with the article where the person involved actually commented.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[swillden]

I think the two stories are consistent, including the timelines... except that Levison's version in the Guardian omitted the June 28 warrant and his nearly three week failure to comply.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Tiger Smile]

It's far more clever than that. Normally the small business owner can appeal for help and fight. This is something that works for the public good to keep goernment in check, but they made even asking for help impossible. 1st rule of FISA Club is you don't talk about FISA Club. The act of mearly asking for help would land a person in prison.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

The court docs are open for inspection. The wired article has a link to them at the bottom. Lavabit has a clear case if you're right considering the feds are outright lying about the first warrant (according to you.) Have you read the warrants or any court filings? I guess you don't need to.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[jader3rd]

If you built a system that didn't keep track of metadata, it might be hard to reengineer your system, to comply within three weeks.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Kaenneth]

But has that actually been tested?

Re:Tremendous Respect

[RJFerret]

Hear, hear...integrity. A willingness to stick to his principles no matter the cost, so admirable.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[AK Marc]

I think there is a difference between "refuses to comply" and "fails to comply" but the articles don't do a good job of explaining which.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

a very good question. surely you understand why you must be the one to test it. chosen one.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[vux984]

Lavabit has a clear case if you're right considering the feds are outright lying about the first warrant (according to you.) Have you read the warrants or any court filings? I guess you don't need to.

Yes, Exhibit I, Attachment 2, whereupon lavabit is required to allow the FBI to install a pen/trap to capture all Snowden's email.

Strictly speaking the order only applied to Snowden's email, but the FBI interpreted such that in order to comply with the order, the pen/trap device would require Lavabit turn over its master SSL keys to *decrypt* all traffic, even just to comply with an order that technically only allowed them Snowden's.

Lavabit objected to this. The FBI insisted this original order did in fact grant them the right to the master keys and it snowballed from there.

So yes, while the initial order didn't demand the SSL keys explicitly it demanded something that effectively would have required the SSL keys in order to comply; at least by the FBIs interpretation of the order.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[BradMajors]

The article just repeats what the Lavabits founder said. Not everything he said is true. Don't believe everything that you read.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[swillden]

I think there is a difference between "refuses to comply" and "fails to comply" but the articles don't do a good job of explaining which.

True, although I don't think a judge would see a difference.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really want to take the word of someone shutting down his company rather than cooperating responsibly with the government over agencies with a proven track record in truthiness as exhibited by their patriotic and conscionable leaders Clapper, Alexander, Holder, and, first but not most in love, Obama?

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just like Clapper, a guy who sticks to his own principles over those of the U.S. constitution no matter the cost.

The difference is just that Clapper's principles are despicable, and that he's thriving due to the U.S. political system's tendency to disproportionately reward amorality.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Richard_at_work]

Yeah, like they don't have a vested interest to slant the story in one direction or another...

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't believe everything that you read.

Why should I believe that?

Re:Tremendous Respect

[nosferatu1001]

"Cannot comply" is also a different argument. If you are asked to do something you cannot do, it is difficult to do it within 3 weeks....

Re:Tremendous Respect

[sjames]

And an article where one of the parties is gagged by the other is sure to be unbiased.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing the source of this alternate information was the NSA, bastians of honesty that they are, as I can't see any other source so I think I'll believe lavabits founder over them thanks.

Not making a comment on who is right. It's just misleading to ignore the first part hence you've been mislead.

Yes you are, you are claiming that this represents truth as evidenced from your claim of it being misleading. If it was false it wouldn't be misleading not to mention it, which is possibly why its not mentioned in the Guardian article. After all the Guardian is in the UK with its oh so gentle libel laws. Where's wired based?

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

The facts also indicate that Lavabit's representation failed to object to the wholesale key request.

They couldn't go back and retroactively object. The problem here is a screwed up legal system and deeply ignorant people who had no idea what they're asking for.

And the defendant's attorney didn't realize this.

And that's how it happened.

Fundamentally, Lavabit should have had better representation. The problem is that they were on a very short timeline. Most people don't have those sorts of relationships set up in advance. In retrospect, perhaps Lavabit should have known this kind of thing could happen. They will serve as a lesson to us all about being prepared.

That said, I think that morally and Constitutionally this sets a terrible precedent. The judge and the Federal Government may have been procedurally correct, but that doesn't make things right.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[Anonymous Coward]

You going to be the one to test it?

Thought not.

Its always easy to gamble with someone else's freedom.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[david_thornley]

And an article where one of the parties is gagged by the other is sure to be unbiased.

Or an article where one of the parties has reason to refuse to comment. This is common when the legal system gets involved.

It's a Good Thing (TM) that Levison is able to air his grievances in public, and present the situation as he sees it. It doesn't mean his account is unbiased.

Re:Tremendous Respect

[TangoMargarine]

Agreed. And I'm wondering why they thought if they requested data on a single user and he said no, increasing their demands to all his users would meet with more success.

Thanks USA

[Anonymous Coward]

It was totally awesome coming home one day and finding out my primary e-mail account was shut down.

Re:Thanks USA

[Anonymous Coward]

It was totally awesome coming home one day and finding out my primary e-mail account was shut down.

Oh.

We're so sorry about that.

We didn't realize we were inconveniencing the living shit out of you here, but hey, thanks for the reminder.

Fuck you very much,

- (the other 400,000+ users)

Re:Thanks USA

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF are you retarded. If 1 user isn't allowed to be annoyed, why are 400,000+ users annoyed?

"that we all have a right to personal privacy."

[gTsiros]

No, not really.

Re:"that we all have a right to personal privacy."

[Anonymous Coward]

I think there was a story or 3 about that recently. In the EU you might.

None of them can be trusted

[Anonymous Coward]

No government on earth can be trusted. Every single one of them will lie, cheat, steal and kill to achieve their goals. The only difference is how much they lie about it. If you wish to delude yourself that "your" government is different, fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW15CGAiscw

Re:None of them can be trusted

[Anonymous Coward]

Governments don't arrive from outer space, nor are they appointed by divine mandate, no matter what certain monarchs may have believed. Consider them as a group of imperfect people faking it and you'll be closer to the truth.

Good job capturing the "steamroller effect"

[TFoo]

I think this is an important article because he does a good job of showing how the govt bullies people around -- and illuminating precisely why governmental power NEEDS checks and balances, like a functioning (not rubber-stamp) court and warrant system.

Re:Good job capturing the "steamroller effect"

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh shit! You mean we can actually point out the flaws in our own system and NOT go to jail?

Euros, please shut up.

Re:Good job capturing the "steamroller effect"

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Right up there with Aaron Swartz

Re:Good job capturing the "steamroller effect"

[Attila Dimedici]

The government DOES need checks and balances, but checks and balances are insufficient when government acquires too much power. We are beyond the point where checks and balances are sufficient to ensure freedom. The government has acquired too much control over too many aspects of people's every day lives.

The Gestapo owns the tubes now

[Anonymous Coward]

The negligence, selfishness, ignorance, and apathy of the general populace have seeded control of the most important event in human history to the sociopathic elite.

Re:The Gestapo owns the tubes now

[Anonymous Coward]

You could also correct AC's improper English with complete sentences, but let's not be pedantic twats that miss the point.

Re:The Gestapo owns the tubes now

[crunchygranola]

When lambasting the ignorant masses, you should at least try to use proper English.

Ceded, not seeded you dumb fuck.

Actually the use of "seeded" makes perfectly good sense, and is in fact a very evocative phrasing - that the control will continue to grow and spread as the 'seed' sprouts and reseeds among the sociopaths.

You, though, are quite a nasty jerk.

Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[kheldan]

You could change a few words in this story and make it about something that happened in China or Soviet Russia or any other oppressive nation on Earth, past or present, and it would be plausible.

I've said it before: The United States that I thought I grew up in? It wasn't real; it was a fantasy, a lie. THIS is the reality, and it's a goddamned depressing one. 'Secure in your person and papers', indeed. When was the last time those words actually meant something? Did they ever mean anything?

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[log0n]

Completely agree. I'll quote myself for no other reason than I just 90sec ago stated the same thing earlier and you completely encapsulated how I feel. I have a feeling that there are quite a lot of us like this.

"We expect it from China because they are [more or less] (not us, so therefore) a potential enemy, like Russia, like latest Islamatyrant, blah blah.

(going US centric) We were raised to believe that the US was better than what we're finding out it's doing. We were taught to believe we are a shining beacon of freedom, democracy, that our way is the best way - or at least it's the best way done so far - because look at all of the failings we see around us.. we take the moral highground making us better than the tyrants who do the stuff that we despise, etc.

There are a lot of Snowdens out there.. not necessarily in what power or knowledge we have, but that those of us that feel everything instilled in us about our nation's greatness is turning out to be complete bullshit."

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[myowntrueself]

Yeah

In Soviet Russia car fines you!

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they ever mean anything?

No.

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[AK Marc]

'Secure in your person and papers', indeed. When was the last time those words actually meant something? Did they ever mean anything?

I just thought of an amazing conspiracy theory. The number one place felony arrests are made is in traffic stops. That's how they caught McVeigh (amongst others). They can't force people to carry papers on them if they are on mass transit or walking. So force cars to be the only practical transport, and you've created a "papers please" society. So, is there a conspiracy to force people into cars in the USA?

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[Xyrus]

We all live in prisons. It's just that ours has better marketing. :)

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[SlovakWakko]

Well d'oh! Secret court, man - what more do you need to see there's something rotten in the land of freedom? And even though it has been proven how evil this thing is - for example by the 2013 top-secret order for an all-metadata feed from VBNS to NSA - it still exists! The way you've allowed all kinds of extreme measures to be implemented out of fear of terrorists really reminds me of something in our history here in the EU. Just replace terrorists with jews and communists... but don't worry, you are bound to learn the lesson too, sooner or later, and in the course of the learning process also obtain some well-tended memorials which will help you never to forget it. You may think that I am exaggerating - well, our grandparents also thought so ;)

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[Anonymous Coward]

Did they ever mean anything?

Here's a hint: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal .. " was written by slave owners. Now work your way down the rabbit hole from there.

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[wbr1]

Secure in your persons and papers got rewritten. It is now 'papers please'

Didn't you get the memo?

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[Anonymous Coward]

'Secure in your person and papers', indeed. When was the last time those words actually meant something? Did they ever mean anything?

You need your papers secured so you can present them on request ,)

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[TangoMargarine]

I've been saying for a couple years now, "If you can't find a reason to drink, you're not paying attention."

Re:Substitute "China" or "Soviet Russia"

[TangoMargarine]

It must have been sealed by an NSA gag order.

Hmm

[Chompjil]

Is there even any good encrypted email providers left?

Re:Hmm

[tlambert]

Is there even any good encrypted email providers left?

By "good", you mean "compliant with FISA court orders for installation of monitoring equipment", right?

All this can be avoided

[Anonymous Coward]

An Hollywood company ask me to make sure that all emails sent be employees were secured. We ended up using Truecrypt encrypted files, which would contain the actual email, then sending the encrypted files over normal email. All encrypted files were locked using one-time-use password from a reference pad.
It should be easy to warp the above process and let the user choose a means of key exchange.
This way all coms becomes secure. Even storing them can be done securely on the cloud. Cloud provider need not worry as they can collaborate all they want.
This method is secure, self-contained and prevent mass surveillance.

Re:Substitute

[Anonymous Coward]

but that those of us that feel everything instilled in us about our nation's greatness is turning out to be complete bullshit

Sorry, the USA is not even "your nation", it was bought and paid for during the covert coups in 1913 and 1933. "Your nation" have been owned by European bankers and have been paying taxes to them ever since. Who do you think owns federal reserve.

the chronology switcheroo

[Mister Liberty]

Some people change labels CAUSE and EFFECT
as easily as they change store price labels.

Re:the chronology switcheroo

[visualight]

Ok, there's some security that cannot be bypassed by chocolate. But that's what the rain boots are for.

Tell your congresscritter this must end

[Anonymous Coward]

I violated the Prime Directive and read TFA, which, as an American, I found horrifying. For the first time that I can remember, I was inspired to contact my Congresscritters. If you're a citizen, please read the article, and then contact your senator/representatives and tell them this has to stop.

Re:Tell your congresscritter this must end

[Anonymous Coward]

Shame on you for RTA. You are banned from slashdot!

Re:Brought it on himself

[Anonymous Coward]

How does his noncompliance give the government the right to invade the privacy of a large number of 3rd parties.

Sounds more like they wanted him to resist so they would have an excuse.

Of course you had a choice

[Gothmolly]

Say no, scram the company, and have your day in court. You didn't have to cave like a pussy.

Re:Of course you had a choice

[spire3661]

You first.

Re:Of course you had a choice

[ThatsMyNick]

He did have his day in court and he lost. Did even read a line of TFA. And the court impossed a $5,000/day per day fine, for non-compliance. No big deal right, you would have just paid it out of your pocked (do remember his is a small business, that doing okay, but no where to close to pay those fines). If he had still refused, he would been hit with a contempt of court.

Re:Of course you had a choice

[Anonymous Coward]

It is always amazing to me how free assholes like you are with other people's lives and freedom. When do you put your life and livelyhood to the test?

That's what I thought.

Pussy.

Can someone please point me to the Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone please point me to the alleged Right to Privacy in the Constitution, because I don't see one.

There is no prohibition against government infringing upon a hypothetical right to privacy, and certainly no expectation of privacy exists for anything transmitted over the Internet, which was created and built with government money.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[sexconker]

Can someone please point me to the alleged Right to Privacy in the Constitution, because I don't see one.

There is no prohibition against government infringing upon a hypothetical right to privacy, and certainly no expectation of privacy exists for anything transmitted over the Internet, which was created and built with government money.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[hackus]

I do not know why I am shocked when I read this stuff when idiots like this who have access to incredible amounts of historical literature on the internet, post stuff like "Can someone please point me to the Right?"

The situation as far as I am concerned is hopeless without mass revolt.

There is just no way you are going to get rid of all the massive amounts of corruption from fixed banks, fixed markets, deliberate acts of espionage by this criminal cabal know as the two party system in the USA.

It has to go, it MUST go or there isn't going to be anything left.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[AK Marc]

Can someone please point me to the alleged Right to Privacy in the Constitution, because I don't see one.

Read the 9th and 10th Amendments again.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Nothing there indicates that the transmission of electronic signals over a shared and publicly funded network, should be opaque to the public trust (ie the govt). The keys were given with a guarantee that cannot be ensured and Lavabit fell rather than concede the fact.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not know why I am shocked when I read this stuff when idiots like this who have access to incredible amounts of historical literature on the internet, post stuff like "Can someone please point me to the Right?"

Frankly, do you think you can rest on the laurels of the Founding Fathers? If you feel that you have a right to be secure in your assets, then call your congressman and demand he work for it. And if he does not convincingly do so, vote for a candidate that will. And tell both of them and all your friends about why you do that.

You privacy and policies now depend on your engagement now. Just because some of your genes may plausibly be traced back to people who had guts does not mean that you get to inherit everything without ever putting any amount of work or compassion into it yourself. The Founding Father's are dead, buried, and rotten. The Constitution will live through you or die.

At the current point of time, the latter seems much more plausible. Because if the Constitution is not more than a piece of paper, it is dead.

It does not matter that there is some centuries-old Constitution if you are not willing to give it life and meaning. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin will not rise from the grave and make it count again. That's your job, and you should be ashamed at what you are doing with what your forefathers have given you and fought for.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[Sarius64]

You have to be a woman, dumbass!

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[Anonymous Coward]

certainly no expectation of privacy exists for anything transmitted over the Internet, which was created and built with government money.

The EU disagrees about privacy and your assertion about payment is also incorrect. Many private companies have invested in various networks in multiple countries.

Re:Can someone please point me to the Right?

[david_thornley]

Thing is, this is not a clear constitutional violation. I strongly believe it's against what was meant in the Fourth Amendment, but it is possible to construe the Fourth as permitting this (I think it's intellectually dishonest).

First, what's "unreasonable"? The frisk police give to people they take into custody temporarily is designed to remove weapons, and sounds reasonable to me. The courts have apparently decided that getting the contents of one's mobile phone is also reasonable, for reasons that completely escape me, and it's getting worse.

Second, what's "papers"? Much of the time, the Feds are collecting information about what might be called papers without actually examining them. This includes telephone call records, taking notes of mailing and return addresses, etc. I'm not happy about this, but it isn't really covered in the Constitution.

Third, what constitutes a "search"? The government has been arguing that keeping the "papers" on file and having an official policy that they will not be examined by a human doesn't constitute a search. I'm not exactly happy about this.

Basically, the courts aren't going to stop this on Constitutional grounds. This has to be addressed politically.

It's called the tenth amendment.

[tlambert]

Can someone please point me to the alleged Right to Privacy in the Constitution, because I don't see one.

There is no prohibition against government infringing upon a hypothetical right to privacy, and certainly no expectation of privacy exists for anything transmitted over the Internet, which was created and built with government money.

It's called the tenth amendment.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Since there's not a specific right to invade privacy granted to the Fed, there is therefore a right to privacy.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Kaenneth]

From Wikipedia:

For many years, the English government had used a "general warrant" to enforce its laws. These warrants were broad in nature and did not have specifics as to why they were issued or what the arrest was being made for. A general warrant placed almost no limitations on the search or arresting authority of a soldier or sheriff. This concept had become a serious problem when those in power issued general warrants to have their enemies arrested when no wrongdoing had been done. During the mid-18th century, the English government outlawed all general warrants. This study of the history of England made the American Founding Fathers ensure that general warrants would be illegal in the United States as well when the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1791.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[mark-t]

But one could also argue that people have the same right to attempt to invade other people's privacy (google glass, anyone?), to the extent that they do not break any actual laws in doing so.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[tlambert]

This study of the history of England made the American Founding Fathers ensure that general warrants would be illegal in the United States as well when the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified in 1791.

Sorry, but in this case, they had a court order. Since a warrant is nothing more than a writ by a court (with additional restrictions), they were in technical compliance with the fourth amendment, although they were, since it was impossible to disclose them in order to defend against them, technically in violation of the due process clauses of the fifth and fourteenth amendments.

Subsequent actions by the Fed were potentially in technical violation of the fourth amendment, largely because they extended their reach due to the technological impossibility of complying with the original warrant and court order (the system was specifically designed such that such compliance was impossible). While potentially arguable as a CALEA violation by the service provider, email service providers are generally not considered to be common carriers under the law, and so the provisions of CALEA do not technically apply to them.

Interestingly, CALEA was applies to VOIP, and is enforceable against broadband internet providers; if so, this is a win for net neutrality, in that, at least in the sense that some of their traffic might be voice conversations, they qualify as common carriers. I'm actually surprised no one has attempted to attack their claim to non-carrier status on that grounds, but to do so would generally require a lot of work.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Anonymous Coward]

A right to privacy can be reasonably inferred to be implied by the prohibition against search and seizure without a warrant. Of course people will say but that data is outside your home, which while technically correct misses the spirit entirely of the admendment. It would be a bit like creating a law which required homeowners of that time to put all their important documents and such in a box that some other entity owned, then since someone else owns the box they can search it without a warrant. It's equally ridiculous to think that the contents of a letter should be arbitrarily opened and read before being resealed and forwarded to a recipient. That kind of thing should take a warrant, and there certainly should not be different laws for a letter written on computer's disk compared to one written on paper, even if that content is carried from one place to another. The content still remains the property of the owner and as such is still the owner or destined recipients personal posession.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Anonymous Coward]

Irrelevant. The Consitution governs the actions of the authorities, not private citizens.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Anonymous Coward]

Which part of "the US Constitution is just a piece of paper" (just like the US dollar) do you not get?

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Anonymous Coward]

More importantly, there are certain inallienable rights that even the Constitution and its Amendments don't address, specifically in this day and age. One of them IS privacy. Do people forget that our rights exist beyond that of the Constitution and all other papers, and that they are in place because society required them to function cooperatively?

In short, I don't get my rights from the Constituion or the Government. They existed before such doctrines were laid out, and far after they turn to dust.

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[Anonymous Coward]

good thanks
abogados madrid

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[stephenmac7]

It's not like the federal government has ever complied with the tenth amendment, especially after the government expanded tremendously during the 20th century (and continues to do so, at the expense of the states and people).

Re:It's called the tenth amendment.

[mark-t]

Yes, but there are no small number of people who would argue that *nobody* should have the right to invade anyone's alleged privacy... eg, using something like google glass or otherwise recording in a public place, and are sufficiently incensed at the notion that anybody might do something like this that physical violence is often mentioned as a recourse (which explicitly *does* violate a person's civil rights).

I'll tell you why lavabit was shut down.

[amosh]

Lavabit shut down because it was founded by a moron who was more interested in living up to his glorious libertarian ideals than actually living in the real world. I understand that in your Galtean paradise the fact that you had some neat tech was enough, but outside of Ayn Rand's masturbatory fantasies, you need to be aware of the rules of the world you live in. Rules like, "Do not give the finger to a judge." Rules like "If you want something to be secure, you need to have a legal team ready to go BEFORE, not AFTER, you are called into court."

Face it - your glorious security was defeated by social engineering, YOU were the weakest link. Goodbye!

Re:free country, my ass

[AK Marc]

We have more freedoms than anyone else. We just aren't allowed to exercise them. Why can't you communists understand that?

So ... I did SOMETHING; do you?

[Anonymous Coward]

When this came up I donated a nontrivial chunk of $ (for me) to the legal fund. Many, many, of the complainers here could have done the same ($5, $50, $500); but it seems not many did. You can complain on slashdot or live in the here and now, and when this first came up you were all given a chance to do something _real_. But who did?
I'll post a question in a blog about how very somewhat unhappy I am when the US captures Snowden and executes him for treason, sounds right and forceful? I'll sleep better at night for having done so I'm sure.

Re:Brought it on himself

[AK Marc]

So, do what you are told, even if the request is illegal? How do you know the request is legal without having time? How do you get advice on the matter if you are barred from talking about it?

Re:Nullify Obama.nation gestapo

[AK Marc]

When did this guy get a jury trial?

Re: The U.S. government is corrupt.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this downmodded? I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions or characterization of the government. But his facts are pretty much correct, sadly.

We directly killed several million in Vietnam. We funded death squads in Indonesia, where nearly a million were killed. Count all the Cold War proxy conflicts. Plus Nicaragua, which was more than a proxy war. Plus Bosnia. Plus Iraq.

That gets you quite close to 10 million. Certainly more than 5 million. And we haven't even counted Korea.

These are sad facts. Whether or not these conflicts were justified, it's disgusting to deny them. You don't need to equivocate with the Holocaust. The world is a complex place. But at least try to understand the basics facts.

Re:Nullify Obama.nation gestapo

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

Assuming he is an American old enough to serve on a jury, and that is a big assumption., I doubt this guy could survive voir dire, so I doubt he ever got a jury trial.

What surveillance equipment?

[gnasher719]

The statement is that FBI knocked on his door and asked him to let them install "survellance equipment" on his servers. What "surveillance equipment" would that be? Just curious - what kind of equipment could these guys carry with them, that could be installed and used for surveillance?

Re:What surveillance equipment?

[tibit]

A Piston console with a bit of external storage is probably all one needs. It'd be physically very, very small.

Lavabit was a crappy company.

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

They implemented some technology to insure security but never really showed they cared about security.

Let us say that police showed showed up at a hospital demanding to see a poatients records. What would happen? Suddenly a bunch of lawyers would show up at the administrators office and they would be in court before the police lawyers got a chance to appear. Hospitals care about their patients security.

What do I hear about Lavabit, time and again they are getting played by government lawyers in court. Seems like they didn't even have decent lawyers until the fifth or sixth round. They should have had lawyers before the fight even started.

Re:Lavabit was a crappy company.

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't read the article, did you?

They didn't have the opportunity to get a proper lawyer on time, when they did, the lawyers weren't given the necessary information, and they didn't have a chance to contest the orders in courts.

Now I don't know what the company was like when they operated, but in court, they weren't played, they were entirely prevented from defending their case.

Re:Lavabit was a crappy company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hospitals - multi-million (billion?) dollar businesses, making good margins and having a constant stream of legal issues that need attention so can afford to have some lawyers on the books all the time (even if those lawyers aren't super-qualified to handle FISA requests, they'd still be good enough to put forth a proper delaying tactic).
Lavabit - small business, not able to do any of this.

By your reasoning, Lavabit should have bought servers from the planet Zod and kept them in orbit inside fortified stealth satellites that couldn't be tracked by any human technology. That way, the feds wouldn't have been able to install their surveillance gear, and even if they had, it wouldn't have been compatible.

Re:Lavabit was a crappy company.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us say that police showed showed up at a hospital demanding to see a poatients records. What would happen?

They'd probably be shown them unless they asked someone who actually cares about patient confidentiality and then they could just come back later

Re:Lavabit was a crappy company.

[SecurityGuy]

Hospitals care about their patients security.

I'm guessing you never worked for a hospital.

Remove the single source

[Anonymous Coward]

One of the problems with Lavabit and others is that there is a single person (the owner of LavaBit) that the NSA/CIA/FBI/ (insert other 3-letter agency here), can choke. They are many and you are one. Clearly an unfair advantage. A better use would be hard cryptography (example pgp or better) with a limited time offer where key exchange is between the other two, then they use the limited time software over your network. The 3-letters then must go and find the people who are using it. More voters yelling means more tv coverage, and bigger black eye for 3 letter agency. Clearly the 3 letter agencies don't believe that anyone has the right to privacy.

Arbitrary laws, cooked up by crooks

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly the US constitution (something Nick Cage tries to impress upon us is something Americans treasure) has basically no legal standing in 2014. US government lawyers can make up whatever crap they want, and get around any or all of it. I thought it was just George W. Bush who fucked over what little of the Magna Carta was in it, but others have done so many times since. One law for the government, another for the people. At some point in the near future, I expect police will be able to detain people without trial indefinitely, without charge, and torture (I forget are they calling waterboarding torture or not?), but well beyond waterboarding. The government or its agents will also be able to make up their own laws, or repeal other laws as the situation or their itch determines, including being able to kill suspects on suspicion without consequence. There are a lot of countries I don't want to go, because they are basically lawless. On a daily basis, the US is looking more like those. I look at the actions of people in power in Washington, and have a better understanding of how (Ancient) Rome fell. It looked like it was from without, but really, it was from within.

Re:free country, my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

And certain freedoms are apparently built on the skulls of slaves. Why can't you capitalists understand that? And that's from a cosmologist. ;}

Not the home of the brave anymore either

[Anonymous Coward]

we do our killing by remote control. What could be more cowardly?

Re:Not the home of the brave anymore either

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing in this world. Another good example is the Boston Marathon. All of Boston cowering in their homes for days. No better example of what chickenshits amerikans really are.

Hmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but you will never hear about them. Any commercial offering of encrypted email services will be subject to these conditions as soon as someone knows about it.
You still have the option of using a mail-reader program and a PGP plugin, and find a way to exchange keys in meat space. Encrypt all messages before they leave your computer, they are stored in encrypted form on the mail server, and are only readable by those in possession of the private PGP keys.
If you become a target, expect shenanigans to acquire your private key (keyloggers, spyware, fake wifi, fake cell phone towers).
In any case, no matter what you do, the metadata is still not encrypted -- with whom and when you communicated.

free country, my ass

[Anonymous Coward]

I always chuckle when '[M]uricans start spouting off about how this country is [the] best because there are all these freedoms that nobody else in the world has.

As a 'Murican, I agree (though I don't chuckle; I pity the fools). Too many of my fellow citizens still believe the bullshit from their grade-school social studies textbooks.