Slashdot Mirror
Declining LG's New Ad-friendly Privacy Policy Removes Features From Smart TVs
BUL2294 (1081735) writes "Techdirt and Consumerist posted articles about a user in the UK who, after a firmware update to his 2-year old LG Smart TV, declined their new Privacy Policy, only to find that most Internet-connected features (e.g. BBC iPlayer, Skype) of the TV now no longer work. From the Techdirt article: 'Does a manufacturer have the right to "brick" certain integral services just because the end user doesn't feel comfortable sharing a bunch of info with LG and other, unnamed third parties? LG certainly feels it has the right to do this. In fact, it makes no secret of this in its long Privacy Policy — a document that spends more time discussing the lack thereof, rather than privacy itself. The opening paragraph makes this perfectly clear.' To add, even declining the policy still results in non-specified information being sent to LG.
LG's policy of spying on the viewing habits of customers, along with sending filenames of videos stored on USB devices connected to TVs, was previously discussed on Slashdot."
Return the TV for a full refund. Under UK law you cannot impose conditions after the point of sale.
It looks like people are going to need 3 VLANs soon... One for WiFi, one for computers with private information and a 3rd with no external access except to addresses specifically allowed.
Does a manufacturer have the right to "brick" certain integral services just because the end user doesn't feel comfortable sharing a bunch of info with LG and other, unnamed third parties?
Of course they don't.
I am sure that just in 3-4 years, after a lawsuit, affected customers will be able to get a $7.50 credit good towards purchase of a new LG TV.
Shit like this is exactly why, so long as they're available, I will always opt for a 'dumb display' rather than a 'smart tv.'
Just give me a decent size screen with a good resolution, refresh rate, and a handful of various input types.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Terms of use for physical product changed after purchase in such a way as to cripple said product? That's called "bait and switch."
The primary purpose of an internet connected TV is to generate ad revenue and marketing data about you -- or at least in my cynical view it is.
Basically they've said "if you don't consent to give us this data, we're taking away features". Probably because they can't (or won't) make the services work without it, and it's just easier to cut you off.
Connected devices have always been a huge privacy hole, and an opportunity to have someone continue to make money off you after they've sold you the TV.
It's also why my last TV wasn't a "smart" TV. My TV receives inputs from sources, but otherwise is essentially just a monitor with speakers.
I view this as more or less a predictable outcome of smart TVs, because companies view them as something you're using under license, and will only give you these services if they're getting what they want in return.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Moreover what about Terms of Use for the other content? I have not read the LG ToU, but it could be something as simple as 'hey we need to pass this information on and we will store it on your TV for you so you can use Netflix, iPlayer, etc. but we won't receive or store anything.'
Without a copy of the agreement, it's hard to tell how nefarious this is.
The opposite of progress is congress
No. Not in UK law, I'm pretty sure, though IANAL.
The Data Protection Act (DPA) means you have to be able to opt out of this kind of intrusive data harvesting and if the disabling of advertised functionality isn't covered by the Sale of Goods Act, it would seem that the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations would apply. The DPA applies to your relationship with the data processor (LG) while the functionality of the TV is the responsibility of the retailer.
The correct remedy would be to return the TV to the retailer and demand a refund or a "repair" and to go to the small claims court if they refuse. LG won't be happy when retailers start pushing back.
customers can upgrade to a version compatible with LG's now 'dumb' televisions. this new firmware stores and receives digital media, imports users music, can be viewed in multiple rooms, and wont cripple your cat if you dont forward a list of your favourite shows to them.
Good people go to bed earlier.
I won't be buying anything marked LG for quite some time; I had one of their phones about ten years ago. Buggiest piece of shit I ever saw, made Windows 95 look good by comparison. The screen would often turn upside down, backwards, all white, all black, do all sorts of strange things. Thinking "factory defect" I sent it back, and the replacement was even worse. So I'm going to have to have a whole lot of people I trust telling me how well built their LG is before I buy anything from them. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.
As to their privacy policy, it's pretty obvious they stupidly and arrogantly hold their customers in contempt.
That said, I don't want a "smart TV" at all. I'll stick with my old kubuntu computer I have plugged into my old TV's S-Video and the stereo with the big speakers, and when the TV finally dies I'll try to find one without a built-in computer, just because it makes vile shit like this possible.
Free Martian Whores!
I bought the Playstation 3 because of the ability to run other OSs. I liked my LG TVs because they gave me a DB-9 serial connection. I'm just old, I suppose. I still prefer openness.
Yep, I never spell check.
More incorrect spellings can be found he
Who? who goes to Jail? the shareholders? the majority shareholder? the CEO? the Lawyer? The Engineer?
It's a corporation, they understand money. Fine them 250 pounds per impacted TV. Give them 30 days to enable preexisting feature or fine them again.
It will solve this problem, and it will mean other competitors won't do it.
Putting people in jail for this is a waste of time, money, jail space ad will accomplish very little.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Terms of use for physical product changed after purchase in such a way as to cripple said product? That's called "bait and switch."
Ho ho ho! Silly consumer! Does the physical product you purchased look at all crippled to you? Every pixel and transistor and unecessarily ugly bezel is exactly as it should be! It's only the software, which is licensed, not sold, and subject to the terms and conditions of the EULA, modifiable at any time by us, without notice, that has changed!
(And this is why the 'licensed not sold' bullshit with software is ultimately so dangerous. If it just applied to stuff you bought on floppy disks and shoved into a computer, it'd be mostly a nuisance with occasional abuses. The fact that the same legal reasoning can be extended to cover firmware, which is just as much software; but also more or less entirely critical to the operation of a very large, and increasing, percentage of the 'hardware' devices you 'own', is where it really shows its teeth. Nearly anything of nontrivial complexity probably has some firmware in it somewhere, without which it isn't much good, and for which your replacement options are limited, sometimes by obscurity, sometimes by crypto bootloaders, which rather undermines the 'ownership' you might hope to have.)
What, you mean the "Goldstar" part of LG? If you remember any Goldstar computer products from the late-80s to mid-90s, they were absolute crap. How they ever surpassed Samsung & Sony is beyond me, especially given the "Lucky" part of "LG" is a chemical company that even makes toothpaste & laundry detergents! ("Lucky Goldstar" became "LG" in 1995...)
Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
Most consumer routers have a simple blacklist for ip's per pc ip. Simply block their addresses. Google them or run a wireshark on an isolated hub+pc and make note.
I have and LG TV and the new eula needs someone to go after it. It even sends audio recording if you use the mic to their servers.
You could agree and then record/watch lots of Teletubbies or Barney Miller reruns while you aren't home. That will shew their data and maybe they will eventually give up.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
Why, did you get one of those piece of shit ROKU boxes? I had one, for exactly one day. Turns out the piece of shit was directly engineered to separate me from my cash. The first thing it wanted was a fucking credit card so they could start happily billing me even more for the device I just paid $100 for. The final straw was after digging through it and all the stupid "apps" for it you have to buy, I finally figured out the only way it would play my LOCAL MEDIA that I specifically purchased it for was to BUY A FUCKING APP to do it for $4-5 bucks. That did it.
The POS went back the next day flat, and I bought a WD-TV Live box instead. It did everything I ever wanted it to do, and it supports LOTS more a/v file formats, way more than the ROKU did. It will play .ISO DVD images directly, and understands .AVI, .MPG, .MP4, .MKV and whole host of other formats. The WD-TV Live was one of the best purchases I have made in the last few years. ROKU sucks donkey balls. Maybe they fixed this in later software upgrades, but somehow I doubt it, as I said it seemed engineered to drain my wallet, primarily...
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
Maybe it's time for "corporate jail" - the company's operations get suspended for the time it's in "jail" but it's required to continue paying employees. That might finally start getting their attention.
There is no rational reason why software should be different from just about every other good that is for sale.
Unlike physical goods, works of authorship in digital form need to be copied into RAM in order to be used, bringing in copyright law. They also often need to be decrypted in order to be used, bringing in anticircumvention law.
Ah, good, someone pointed this out already. Of course... you got down-modded because you gave like ZERO useful information, so here's some elaboration:
Sony upgraded the PS3 software and removed the capability to dual-boot into Linux (the "OtherOS" feature). There was a class action lawsuit that was dismissed apparently because the plaintiffs didn't do a good job showing actual damage.
I remember some good analysis of the issue at the time. One analysis concluded that the PS3 owners had the right to reject the upgrade, and that the system itself could function as normal, but the ongoing use of the Sony servers represented a "continuing relationship" whereby the company did have the right to change the agreement and the users could either accept the changes or stop using the service entirely. The "service" was free, or paid monthly, and differentiated from the "hardware" which performed precisely as it was sold _if you didn't upgrade the firmware_.
Of course this varied from country to country, but I know of no country where Sony was held liable (someone should correct me -- I could easily have missed one).
I'm sure there was more nuance, but I'm paraphrasing something I read long ago. Anyway, the same logic may or may not apply here... did the LG TV advertise these features? Could the streaming "features" be considered a subscription based service, rather than tied to the hardware advertising? LG can argue that every online service faces some time-dependant obsolescence and change; they may end up being in the clear.
The big issue is that almost all new Blu-Ray discs required a firmware update to play. I bought my PS3 when there were less than 100 Blu-Ray discs. How could I know that in 3 years I would have a choice between features A & B (movies and games) or C (linux)? I didn't pay for one or the other, I paid for both.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Just got a Roku 3 yesterday. Things may have changed, but here's the latest:
* The credit card is clearly marked as an optional feature to allow convenient purchases across many apps. .MPG, .MP4, .MKV and .MP3 and .OGG. I didn't test it, but since it's not hard to include FFMPEG, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.
* I didn't have to buy any apps. Yes, there were some for sale, but I didn't pay for anything. (And Vudu gave me 5 free movies that I haven't seen. Thanks.)
* I found 2 apps that would play from a USB drive for free. And I found one that will play from a Windows network share as well.
* The app I saw claims to support
* The search across everything feature is awesome. I tried an actor search and didn't even realize that Hulu had SNL, so I watched an episode.
Again, other than the $8/month that I already pay Netflix and Hulu and the $80 I paid NewEgg for the refurbished Roku 3, I didn't pay a dime when I hooked it up.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
LG lost me as a customer when they decided that their need for a shiny corporate tower is more important than preserving an historical and natural treasure*. Shit like this just makes me feel even better about ditching them. *http://www.protectthepalisades.org/parisi_cho_petition
to not allow networking of various devices. Obviously it would be better if nearly all corporations weren't inherently evil, but since they are the next best thing is to just refuse to play their games outright.