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Verizon Now Throttling Top 'Unlimited' Subscribers On 4G LTE

PC Magazine (along with Forbes, Reuters, and others) reports that those on the rightmost edge of the graph for Verizon's "unlimited" 4G LTE service are about to hit a limit: [T]hose in the top five percent of Verizon's unlimited data users (which requires one to pull down an average of just around 4.7 gigabytes of monthly data or so) who are enrolled on an unlimited data plan and have fulfilled their minimum contract terms (are now on a month-to-month plan) will be subject to network throttling if they're trying to connect up to a cellular tower that's experiencing high demand." As the article goes on to point out, though, [A] user would have to hit all of these criteria in order to have his or her connection slowed down. There are a lot of hoops to jump through, giving even more weight to the fact that Verizon's throttling — while annoying on paper — won't affect a considerable majority of those still holding on to their unlimited data plans.

274 comments

  1. 1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It doesn't matter. If customers are paying for it, throttling them should be seen as illegal. I've been a Verizon Wireless customer for over a decade and these recent decisions to screw their own customers have led me to the decision I don't want Verizon anything. Not their phones, Internet, anything. Switching to T-Mobil this week.

    1. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

    2. Re:1 or 1 million by NoKaOi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Solution: Don't lie and call it unlimited. The point is that customers are paying for something Verizon calls "unlimited" which is not actually unlimited. The customers contracts are up so they can put those customers on other plans, the problem is when they still call the altered plan "unlimited."

    3. Re:1 or 1 million by mark-t · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Neither is downloading an unlimited amount in a finite period at any finite speed, no matter how fast. The point of an unlimited bandwidth plan is so that one does not experience any unexpected fees for excessive usage, regardless of how much they actually end up using the service. If Verizon doesn't have the infratstructure to support its subscribers having such plans, then they shouldn't be offering them.

      The fact that they literally can't download an infinite quantity of content in a month is irrelevant.

      If you're just adverse to the notion of "unlimited bandwidth" you can think of unlimited bandwidth plan, as actually a cap at whatever the theoretical maximum could be if they were downloading 24/7 at full speed for the entire billing cycle, the maximums of which are dictated by the physical hardware and technology... which is only limited by what we can do today, but if the technology improves, the cap goes up with it, with no defined upper bound. And that's the "unlimited" that is being referred to.

    4. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To throttle paying users with unlimited subscriptions makes no sense if the "pipe" is NOT full. After all, the contracting of unlimited use is why some customers signed up with Verizon. In layman's terms, Verizon is defraud these users.

      Added to the argument is the published knowledge that Verizon has unused capacity. Verizon is creating a second class subscriber when they promised/advertised a single class of subscribers with unlimited access.

      The fact that these users are loyal and add a greater profit to Verizon is another important fact. Verizon charges the same for subscribers who are paying for their cell phones through a two year contract as those who are month-to-month subscribers.

      Lastly, you can have "unlimited bandwidth" since a minority of user subscribe to Verizon and they do not all use their phone all the time--that is, every minute of the day. Sometimes Appearance is Reality.

    5. Re:1 or 1 million by LordLimecat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It sounds like theyre saying this is only on cell towers under high demand: That means it is literally impossible to fulfill requests from all connected subscribers at full time. In that case, QoS is the correct thing to do.

    6. Re:1 or 1 million by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Limited bandwidth does not justify throttling some customers more than others, depending on the nature of their "unlimited" contract.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    7. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      What idiot said their unlimited 4G LTE service referred to bandwidth limits due to physics, rather than data caps on top of the bandwidth limits due to physics?

      Oh yeah, you're the first one to mention bandwidth...

    8. Re:1 or 1 million by thaylin · · Score: 1

      They have published unused capacity on Fios, not wireless.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    9. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And yet they're still throttling Netflix?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    10. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      valid point but tI am entitled to what they sold me, its up to them to make sure they can provide it. Will my payment be reduced by the same percentage everytime they throttle me?

    11. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter. If customers are paying for it, throttling them should be seen as illegal. I've been a Verizon Wireless customer for over a decade and these recent decisions to screw their own customers have led me to the decision I don't want Verizon anything. Not their phones, Internet, anything. Switching to T-Mobil this week.

      "Switching to T-Mobil this week"

      Oh man, you're gonna love T-Mobil, specifically the poor coverage and slower speeds

      Sincerely,
      a former Verizon and current T-Mobil cusomter

    12. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      will be subject to network throttling if they're trying to connect up to a cellular tower that's experiencing high demand."

      Isn't this what they should do no matter what connection their customers are on? Shared bandwidth is still shared, with undefined number of customers in the coverage area of the cell. If this was about fixed lines then the situation would be different.

    13. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter. If customers are paying for it, throttling them should be seen as illegal. I've been a Verizon Wireless customer for over a decade and these recent decisions to screw their own customers have led me to the decision I don't want Verizon anything. Not their phones, Internet, anything. Switching to T-Mobil this week.

      "Switching to T-Mobil this week"

      Oh man, you're gonna love T-Mobil, specifically the poor coverage and slower speeds

      Sincerely,
      a former Verizon and current T-Mobil cusomter

      that's an oil company, right? i would think that where oil spills are concerned, poor coverage and slower speeds are good things.

    14. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Solution: Don't lie and call it unlimited. The point is that customers are paying for something Verizon calls "unlimited" which is not actually unlimited. The customers contracts are up so they can put those customers on other plans, the problem is when they still call the altered plan "unlimited."

      you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone.

      pick one.

    15. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Solution: Don't lie and call it unlimited. The point is that customers are paying for something Verizon calls "unlimited" which is not actually unlimited. The customers contracts are up so they can put those customers on other plans, the problem is when they still call the altered plan "unlimited."

      you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone.

      pick one.

      Nonsense. Just state what the real plans are with the appropriate prices and let the customer choose what they want. The free market in action. Just stop the fraud.

    16. Re:1 or 1 million by Barny · · Score: 3, Informative

      Right, in Australia they have made laws to this effect. If you advertise something as 'unlimited' it must be without any limit.

      --
      ...
      /me sighs
    17. Re:1 or 1 million by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 1

      Really? i'm sure I've seen TV ads recently with the fine print 'acceptable use policy applies'.

      that would suggest isps are still getting away with throttling one's connection.

    18. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, the definition of an "unlimited" plan is that the carrier does not intentionally place artificial limits on the bandwidth available at any given instant, or on the total data transfer per unit time. When one purchases an unlimited plan, one expects to be able to consume an equal-to-any-other-user slice of bandwidth at any given time. That's what unlimited means. If the carrier places limits on the bandwidth that are based on policy rather than technical constraints, they are selling a limited connection.

    19. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No-one is selling unlimited bandwidth. It's usually presented as being unlimited in terms of data transferred. Now you may argue that this is also impossible, but an average person (in the context of a legal argument) is unlikely to believe this is what was being offered; rather, an unlimited service is being sold as one where the carrier does not artificially limit how much they can use it.

      To give a car analogy, Verizon are offering a car for rent with unlimited gas. No reasonable person would ask them to give more gas than they could use if they drove 24/7, but would take exception to "Unlimited Gas!*"

      *Maximum 200 gallons per week.

    20. Re:1 or 1 million by DRJlaw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Nobody sane claimed that Verizon was offering unlimited bandwidth. Bandwidth was quite obviously limited to 3G speeds, and then subsequently LTE speeds.

      Verizon offered unlimited "data," as in no artificial limit on the amount of data that you could download using that bandwidth. Verizon subsequently imposed artificial limits on the amount of data that users could download per month on other plans. Verizon is now limiting bandwidth based upon the amount of data one has downloaded combined with a somewhat arbitrary measure of congestion -- they don't bother to specify what utilization threshold a cell base station has to cross to be considered "congested" so as to trigger the limitation.

      Physics has nothing to do with that limitation. Physics does not dictate that a shared resource be preferentially allocated to those not on an "unlimited" plan because the provider quite badly wants to push users onto pay-per-quantity plans without taking the PR hit necessary to actually terminate the now month-to-month unlimited contracts.

    21. Re:1 or 1 million by phorm · · Score: 1

      Unless they're using logic similar to internet /w Netflix, in which case the towers may be congested due to being poorly maintained/upgraded (to be fail, cellular infrastructure seems better in this regard)

    22. Re:1 or 1 million by NortWind · · Score: 1

      you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone.

      There is a third choice, 3. expand capability.

      Find the towers that sometimes saturate. Then take some of the profits Verizon creates, and increase those towers' capacity, or just outright add new towers. Adding towers would improve coverage, boost signal strength, and in general cut power requirements both for the tower and the customer's phone.

    23. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regular or synthetic?

    24. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's an oil company, right?

      No, that's the product of the great American education system.

    25. Re:1 or 1 million by icebike · · Score: 1

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      4 Gig is a long way from unlimited.

      But even unlimited was always understood to be limited because there are only so many hours in a day you could conceivably pull data over an unlimited network.

      Still 10Gig used to be what the carriers were bitching about. Now its the top 5%. Here's a clue Verizon: The top 5%, like the poor, will always be with us. And punishment on a sliding percentage based scale eventually even reaches average users as average is driven ever downward. After they kill of the 4 gig gobblers, the top 5% includes the 3gig people.

      Its a stupid plan.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    26. Re:1 or 1 million by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      It's not unlimited bandwidth, it's unlimited data.

    27. Re:1 or 1 million by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      well since verizon (and other ISP's) get to redefine words like 'unlimited', i'll redefine the term "dollar" to "liberian dollar".. i just need to find a way to sneak that into fine print.. and i should be good to go.

    28. Re:1 or 1 million by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Instead of calling you a shill, my guess is that your name is 'bobby verizon' and your dad owns the company? Because that's the only reason someone would defend the logic behind Verizon saying 'UNLIMITED', while really meaning "some arbitrary limit that we don't think you'll use, so we'll go a head and label it unlimited anyways."

      I am immortal*

      *other than standard aging processes, random acts of violence, trauma, communicable disease, cancer, or Rapture.

      =/

    29. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Verizon charges their customers quite an extra $5 / gig for 4G data. . Data is a common resource heavy users tax the system everyone else uses. Heavy users who are paying help to grow the network. Heavy users who aren't are a tragedy of the commons. They shouldn't have grandfathered these plans in at all.

    30. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I agree. Verizon should never have grandfathered these plans in their current pricing model doesn't allow for it. I had unlimited EVDO data which is very different than what unlimited data would be today.

    31. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 2

      Verizon spends a fortune adding capacity. They are doing that. But that doesn't address the problem that whatever the capacity is today has to be shared today. And there are choices between how that is allocated.

    32. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 0

      They are saying that Level3's peering agreement never included the kind of volume that Level3 carrying Netflix implies. Verizon isn't obligated to provide peering if the relationship with Level3 isn't roughly peer to peer anymore but rather mostly one way. I.e. by Level3 adding Netflix the argument is they are sending far more traffic to Verizon that Verizon is sending to Level3 so Level3 should be paying Verizon to carry the traffic. Otherwise they throttle to get things back to something closer to peer to peer.

      Netflix is the cause of the contractual dispute but not a party to it, which makes the whole thing more complex.

    33. Re:1 or 1 million by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if you meant to reply to me or to somebody else, because what you are saying is pretty much what I had said... that any so-called limits that might exist arise as a consequence of a limitation of the technology, and since there is no pre-defined notion of just how fast that technology can become, it can still be considered unlimited in that sense.

    34. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 0

      Verizon doesn't care how much LTE data people use who pay for it. Then the heaviest users are helping to pay for the infrastructure they are consuming. The problem with these unlimited plans is they aren't paying for the infrastructure.

    35. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      QoS is about prioritizing some traffic over others. That's precisely what they are doing. Prioritizing paying traffic over free traffic.

    36. Re:1 or 1 million by icebike · · Score: 2

      Sure they are.
      They get a bill every month just like everyone else.
      And they pay more than it costs to provide them with their bandwidth.

      Do have a look at the 10K before wringing your hands for poor pool Verizon.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    37. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How much does Verizon pay you to be a shill?

    38. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if you are unable to understand the concept of throttling or I guess what the internet is...

    39. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I doubt it. Verizon's cost on LTE bandwidth averages out around $5-8 / gig month. Those heavy users are consuming far more than they are paying for.

    40. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Nothing. I sell a lot of Level3 so if anything the other side pays me. But that doesn't mean Verizon is in the wrong.

    41. Re:1 or 1 million by symbolset · · Score: 2

      In the US about half of Internet traffic in prime time is Netflix. It would behoove a company that sells Internet service to provision sufficient bandwidth to the part of the Internet their customers are paying so much to access. Maybe Netflix should just get into the fiber business and start collecting that $100/month instead of a measly $12 since they are already providing half the service anyway.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    42. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 2

      Looks like VPN services like VyprVPN will see some significant growth from Verizon's customers in the short term.
      While Verizon may want to strongarm Netflix into paying them directly, Level3 could reroute the traffic through other networks that also peer with Verizon since Netflix's traffic isn't at all latency sensitive

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    43. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone.

      There is a third choice, 3. expand capability.

      Find the towers that sometimes saturate. Then take some of the profits Verizon creates, and increase those towers' capacity, or just outright add new towers. Adding towers would improve coverage, boost signal strength, and in general cut power requirements both for the tower and the customer's phone.

      you are free to form your own company and expand capability. then, maybe you'll see that choice number 3 is actually "punish verizon".

    44. Re:1 or 1 million by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Netflix in HD is 2.3 GB/hr. If I had one of these grandfathered plans I might be racking up to 12GB/hr and 50 GB/day just for this.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    45. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those fucking assholes at Verizon made me drop my unlimited plan when I upgraded my iPhone from a 4 to a 5C. It wasn't a problem until I started a new job and have to be connected all the time. Every week we here more crap out of the Verizon PR machine about how everyone else is a jerk. Don't trust their company and their jackass CEO.

    46. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Comcast has already said the same thing. There are only about a 1/2 dozen vendors that could handle a surge like that at all. So let's say they push the traffic to AT&T. With AT&T getting their own Netflix's traffic plus Verizon's Netflix traffic they might complain as well.

      At some point Netflix is just going to have to pay for asymmetrical traffic and create an agreement.

    47. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Not quite that bad about 1/3rd of consumer traffic. There is a lot of non-consumer traffic. But regardless it is a ton of traffic.

      It would behoove a company that sells Internet service to provision sufficient bandwidth to the part of the Internet their customers are paying so much to access

      Why? Why wouldn't they want Netflix to pay given their usage?

      Maybe Netflix should just get into the fiber business and start collecting that $100/month instead of a measly $12 since they are already providing half the service anyway.

      Going into last mile delivery is incredibly expensive. Netflix couldn't afford it. On the other hand signing their own peering agreements and paying Verizon, Comcast... some of the cost of delivery would solve the problem.

    48. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It is obscene to be using cellular data for movie viewing. Far cheaper to be mailing DVDs than to be delivering this over the air.

    49. Re:1 or 1 million by symbolset · · Score: 1

      In terms of market cap Netflix is not that much s!aller than TWC. They could probably handle it.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    50. Re:1 or 1 million by symbolset · · Score: 1

      Oh, no. That would be great. And I would only be using 5% of the 300mbps LTE link. I would like that a lot. Maybe I can buy one of those plans on EBay or Craigslist. Will have to look into that.

      --
      Help stamp out iliturcy.
    51. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does it suggest that?
      The consequences for breaching the acceptable use policy don't have to be throttling - they could be cancellation of service.

    52. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I guess what the internet is"

      You guess wrong.

    53. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      They very much are - as with Comcast, Netflix was forced to cut a deal with Verizon, which was done back in April or May.
      So requiring Level3 to pay as well is double-dipping

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    54. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      It's well within Level3's capability to spread the load among all the peers. Netflix is not a ISP, they're a content provider so it's wrong to strongarm them.
      Do owners of popular venues pay to upgrade the interstate 50 miles out of town?

      By the way, Netflix HAS ALREADY PAID both Comcast & Verizon - http://www.theverge.com/2014/4...
      That was months ago. So the issue now is between Verizon & Level3.

      Is Netflix going to have to pay extortion money to EVERY major provider in the world if their traffic causes asymmetric bandwidth between peers?

      If it were up to me, I would tell Comcast & Verizon to go fuck themselves and start buying up every multihomed / distributed VPN service I could find and sell that as a premium service with some goodies to sweeten the pot for my customers.
      I'd start with VyprVPN, which is the one that was used by Colin Nederkoom to figure out that Verizon was throttling his Netflix traffic
      http://www.goldenfrog.com/vypr...

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    55. Re:1 or 1 million by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      Comcast has already said the same thing. There are only about a 1/2 dozen vendors that could handle a surge like that at all. So let's say they push the traffic to AT&T. With AT&T getting their own Netflix's traffic plus Verizon's Netflix traffic they might complain as well.

      At some point Netflix is just going to have to pay for asymmetrical traffic and create an agreement.

      Ha. If it were a free market, you can bet your bits they wouldn't think of doing anything like that to Netflix. The value of my Comcast/Verizon/AT&T connection drops by about 95% if I can't get Youtube and Netflix.

      Without those two, there basically wouldn't be a need for Verizon et al.

    56. Re:1 or 1 million by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Since the contract period expired, as stated in the summary, then they really aren't violating a contract are they? The summary mentions customer who had unlimited plans and are still off contract after the contract's expiration.

    57. Re:1 or 1 million by kwbauer · · Score: 2

      Verizon no longer sells unlimited plans and probably doesn't have many unlimited plans still under contract. The complaint is that Verizon has recently started "pushing" those customers who have unlimited plans but are no longer under contract to get under contract on a plan suitable to their needs. Verizon does have another, more drastic, remedy they could just as legally and morally use: terminate service on the heavy users that Verizon is under no contractual obligation to serve.

    58. Re:1 or 1 million by Imrik · · Score: 2

      So why are they only doing this to people who have already paid off their phone?

    59. Re:1 or 1 million by Imrik · · Score: 1

      To me it depends somewhat on how many towers are considered high-demand. If there's only a few it's fine, but if it's virtually every tower in an urban area, that's a problem.

    60. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's cause their P/E is sky high. They have about $1.7b in cash and a free cash flow under $3b / yr. Verizon is spent $23b on the initial rollout of FIOS and that was an already existing network in place.

    61. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Frequently there is 'no limit', but the upstream allocated to the scab^h^h^h^h unlimited pool is very very very under-provisioned and contended during late night. Dodo and TPG I'm looking at you.

    62. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 2

      It's well within Level3's capability to spread the load among all the peers

      Of course it is. But how does that help? Most of the smaller players would have to buy more bandwidth themselves to carry any substantial portion of Netflix's traffic. They don't have the capacity to accept most of the traffic at the handoff in Oregon. So Level3 would end up having to shift traffic all over the USA themselves, handoff all over the place and then have those smaller players handoff to Verizon. The performance would be both unpredictable and quite bad for Netflix customers. And in the end, its still going to have to get handed back to Verizon for last mile, so all these small providers are going to be asymmetric.

      Do owners of popular venues pay to upgrade the interstate 50 miles out of town?

      Our road system is maintained by the government to serve the common good. The internet is much more of a free market. That being said, in areas where there is very little justification for a road and a business that wants one, they often do pay to get their access to the interstate upgraded.

      By the way, Netflix HAS ALREADY PAID both Comcast & Verizon - http://www.theverge.com/2014/4... [theverge.com]
      That was months ago. So the issue now is between Verizon & Level3.

      AFAIK that's two different agreements. Netflix is having Verizon carry some of their traffic directly. Then there isn't peering obviously and Verizon doesn't care if the traffic is asymmetric. In theory if Netflix bought enough Verizon to cover delivery to all Verizon customers that would solve the Level3 / Verizon problem as there wouldn't be any handoff. But they aren't doing it they are only doing it for some of the traffic. Probably places where the Verizon / Level3 handoffs are flooded to get those customers good service. The issue still remains because Level3 still carries most of Netflix's traffic.

      Is Netflix going to have to pay extortion money to EVERY major provider in the world if their traffic causes asymmetric bandwidth between peers?

      I wouldn't call it extortion, I'd call it paying for services used. And the answer is likely yes. Though the more reasonable thing is that it get wrapped in the Level3 bill. If Netflix wants to generate huge traffic to require expensive traffic upgrades their customers should be the ones to pay for those upgrades.

      If it were up to me, I would tell Comcast & Verizon to go fuck themselves and start buying up every multihomed / distributed VPN service I could find and sell that as a premium service with some goodies to sweeten the pot for my customers.

      How would that help? If a packet is going to get from Level3 Oregon to say a Verizon home in Philadelphia it at some point is going to have to hit a peering location between Level3 and Verizon. Unless you add a bunch of other 3rd parties in there. In which case it is still going to have to happen indirectly. What is a VPN going to do to fix that?

    63. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      It is a free market. The home delivery part is of course a regulated utility but a free market for your town. But mostly if you are consuming tremendous amounts of Netflix you probably are a customer that's a net loss for Verizon. I'm sure if they were tracking fully loaded cost they would be happy if you cancelled.

    64. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      No it isn't. If I ship 1000 packages a day using UPS and they handoff to the postoffice for local delivery on 500 of those packages that's a nice deal. If I then go up to 1100 packages and pay the postoffice directly for the extra 100 that doesn't change the situation on the first 500.

      Deal 1: Netflix pays Verizon to carry a small percentage of their traffic directly
      Deal 2: Level3 pays Verizon extra to carry the bulk of the traffic.

    65. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Unlimited bandwidth means no limits above the physical layer. Nobody is expecting a 10 Mbps dial-up service. or 4.4 Tbps 2G service. But if you sell a 10 Mbps service as "unlimited", putting speed/bandwidth caps on it is fraud.

    66. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 2

      Yes I agree that would be the most reasonable thing to do. Or they could put them on some sort of prepay monthly plan and just eat the cost of the first month. Verizon should be moving those customers off those plans. For the vast majority of customers on their unlimited plans they probably have dumb phones or feature phones that only use EVDO data and their "unlimited" data is around 2m / month. They aren't the problem. The people streaming movies are. They probably should be forced to switch.

    67. Re:1 or 1 million by SirAudioMan · · Score: 2

      Hahahahaha - Expand Capability!

      This goes against every morsel in every cell in the body of the board members of almost any company! The last resort is to ever invest in capital to improve the service unless you fall behind your competitors. Also, remember that terms of service agreement that you signed when you agreed to your contract? Well, they get you there in the small fine print too! Most companies are in the business of making as much money as possible using any means that 'legal'.

    68. Re:1 or 1 million by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Verizon does not advertise unlimited bandwidth. They advertise(d) unlimited data usage -- and in this case, "unlimited" is read to mean "no artificial [or carrier-imposed] caps", not "no caps at all" or even "LTE everywhere".

    69. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given that there is a finite amount of time in a billing cycle, limiting bandwidth is equivalent to limiting amount of data = bandwidth*time. There is no mathematical difference between the two; the proposed bandwidth-limited scheme is fraudulent.

    70. Re:1 or 1 million by theraptor05 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are correct, Verizon can do this leaglly (unless the FCC ever gets their act together), but not for the reason you mention. There is still a contract, with agreements about what services will be provided, and how much those services will cost. Unlimited data is one of those services. The "contract period" is simply the minimum length of time the contract will be in effect without the customer having to pay an early termination fee. If Verizon wants to change any terms of the service (throttling, no unlimited, etc) they can do so with 1 months notice to the customer (which they are doing, with about two months to go), regardless of the "contract period". If an ETF were applicable (which none are, since all unlimited plans are well over two years old at this point), then the customer could ditch the contract (and thus cell service) without paying the ETF. Now, just because they can do it doesn't mean that they should (customer satisfaction). But I'm sure they've done market research to suggest that they will get far more "shared data" plan conversions than they'll lose from upset unlimitted customers.

    71. Re:1 or 1 million by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Why? Why wouldn't they want Netflix to pay given their usage?

      I want you to play leapfrog with a a rainbow-colored unicorn, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to see it happen. The customers have already paid for that usage, which is why Verizon isn't entitled to be paid again by Netflix.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    72. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The customers have not paid nearly what their usage is worth. If the customers were paying commercial ethernet prices for their 20 mbit - 100+mbit plans Verizon would be thrilled with the Netflex consuming as much bandwidth as possible. The consumer pricing is based on most consumers using only a fraction of their possible bandwidth because they use it sporadically and most servers can't fill the allotments. Multiple hours of video changes that equation.

      Verizon could equally well charge customers a premium for using Netflix on their network, i.e. the opposite of net neutrality.

    73. Re:1 or 1 million by timeOday · · Score: 2

      Sigh, I must be on slashdot. "Unlimited" doesn't mean "free from the laws of physics." It means it isn't limited by the carrier. (If I told you there was no speed limit on the autobahn, would you honestly think I was hoping to drive faster-than-light?)

    74. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      "Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics"

      You are confusing the term unlimited with infinite. Unlimited means "we don't limit it". I just found out that Virgin Mobile is doing this as well, and it is fraud. It is very easy to understand why throttling is limiting bandwidth. Suppose I tell you that you can have as much data as you want this month, but I will only send you a single bit per day. I have just limited your data usage to 28 to 31 bits, now haven't I?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    75. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone."

      So now people who purchase and pay for a service, then actually use it, are wrong-doers who should be punished? You have, of course, presented a false dichotimy. They have been serving me the data at the current rate without "punishing" anyone. That is the service I paid for, and it is what they have profited from. Their only valid choices are: 1) Don't sell the service 2) Sell the sevice, and then provide the service for which they have been paid.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    76. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      No. Just no. I can run a restaurant and then post a "policy" on a sign that says: All hot woman must go without a shirt and bra. That doesn't make it legal.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    77. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Deal 3 - pay the Comcast / Verizon extortion for as short a time as possible while working on an alternate solution.
      For example, buy up or cut deals with as many top-tier, distributed VPN providers as possible; VyprVPN would be a good start.
      Cut deals with Google & Microsoft to deliver Netflix content on their infrastructure and distribute through as many peers as possible.
      Work with Google Fiber & municipalities to build hi-speed & wireless that bypasses the monopolies while media-blasting the customers of said monopolies about greater choice, performance & security and truly-free markets.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    78. Re:1 or 1 million by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Out of the frying pan and into another frying pan. Just wait a minute or two and you will switch to AT&T, then Virgin, then Cricket, then finally you will be disgusted enough to hollow out a log and beat it with your old smartphones.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    79. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      god, who cares

    80. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      Look. I have not read all the T&C's, but there is absolutely zero chance that the T&C's do not allow for less than optimal speeds, because it is physically not possible to guarantee full speed in unlimited capacity. So, what you all have your panties in a wad about is the name of the plan. If they named it the Pigs Will Fly plan, it's not fraud just because pigs don't end up flying.

    81. Re:1 or 1 million by icebike · · Score: 1

      They have published unused capacity on Fios, not wireless.

      You say that as if you believe it.
      Yet they are selling entire spectrum chunks to others simply to avoid some of the bring-your-own-device regulations that came with those blocks.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    82. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      It's physically not possible, which means there is zero chance that the T&C's you agreed to prohibit them from limiting you. They can call a plan whatever they want.

    83. Re:1 or 1 million by icebike · · Score: 1

      Doubt Verizon is going to tell you the REAL cost of LTE.
      Doubt you have any access to real data about that either.
      Fess up! You pulled those numbers out of your ass.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    84. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      The real analogy would be to name a fitness program the "Immortal Plan" and then have a bunch of clowns complaining that it doesn't make you immortal

    85. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 0

      are you a total moron? it's a monthly time span, so yes there is absolutely a real physical limit to how much data can be downloaded. just because you are all too stupid to understand that "unlimited" is not possible and it's just a name of a plan, doesn't mean anyone defrauded you.

    86. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      the topic at hand is throttling, right? nobody is turning off service after x gigs are downloaded, right? so...

    87. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 0

      just calling a plan "unlimited" is not fraudulent.

    88. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 0

      no, "unlimited" means there is no limit. your assertion that it somehow means only that there is no company-imposed limit is just something you're making up based on context and assumption.

    89. Re:1 or 1 million by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      4.7 GB is NOT a lot of data in 2014, and their top 5% number is tortured at best.

      --
      Good-bye
    90. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is asking for physics to be trumped, only for Verizon to stop being little shits.

      What I mean by that is, if 100 people are connecting to the same tower, equally dividing up the available bandwidth between those 100 people is fine. What is not fine, is Verizon throttling some users more than others.

    91. Re:1 or 1 million by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      REALLY? We should all have 1 GB connections to the home by now and you defend this stalling bullshit????? You KNOW how much bandwidth costs and yet you defend them? You KNOW they are putting off properly upgrading the network to GB to the home so that they an sell you 100Mb, 200Mb, 500Mb then 1 Gb as upgrades. Fuck you.

      --
      Good-bye
    92. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Prioritizing paying traffic over paying traffic.

      Fixed that for ya. I pay 30 a month for 'unlimited'.

      The sales droids are bending over backwards to try to get you to give up that unlimited (they probably get a bonus on flips).

      They also have a huge flotilla of net neutrality crap in the works. Such as 'our service doesnt count against the cap'... They see the future and they are providing crap service. But want you to pay for it.

    93. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Funny

      Thank you! I totally appreciate your helping me to understand the English language! Up until now I thought that, when people said there is no speed limit on the Autobahn, it meant that one could go as fast as the car would go. Now, thanks to the combination of your brilliance and eloquence, I now understand that the laws of physics cesase to exist on the Autobahn! I now also understand that every phone company is commiting fraud by claiming that their networks are capable of infinite frigging bandwidth! Either that, or you are an idiot.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    94. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      Calling it "unlimited" isn't fraud. Calling it "unlimited" while imposing artificial limits is fraud.

    95. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      names of plans do not constitute a contract

    96. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      um, i think you made my point. the clowns here are whining that there are limits in "unlimited" plans. my point is: of course that is true, you friggin nitwits. same with the autobahn. just because there are no imposed speed limits does not mean there are no limits to how fast you can go.

      > Either that, or you are an idiot.

      not realizing you're making my point perhaps makes you a better fit for that category

    97. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      "Our road system is maintained by the government to serve the common good. The internet is much more of a free market"

      Not close enough to being free. Far too many people simply don't have the choice to change to providers when dissatisfied.
      I would like to see the last mile become a common good but other changes would be needed to ensure fairness.

      "How would that help? If a packet is going to get from Level3 Oregon to say a Verizon home in Philadelphia it at some point is going to have to hit a peering location between Level3 and Verizon. Unless you add a bunch of other 3rd parties in there. In which case it is still going to have to happen indirectly. What is a VPN going to do to fix that?"

      Colin Nederkoom used a VPN link to show that he could access Netflix at almost 10x the paltry 375 kbps he was getting on his Verizon 75 Mbps symmetric service.
      The underlying issue is that Verizon is muddying the waters by being both a residential ISP AND a Tier 1 provider.
      I don't know how it would EVER be possible to have nearly symmetric traffic with them when their small-customer base is in the millions as end-user traffic is HIGHLY asymmetric.
      There's a reason why i mentioned VyprVPN apart from them being the service used by Nederkoom to bypass Verizon's throttling - they have an online storage service as well so if customer's take advantage of this, it might help balance the traffic if Netflix acquires them.

      But there's a much simpler solution that Netflix could implement - a bytecounter & traffic gen plugin that would send random data back when the user is connected to the streaming service and if they implement it unencrypted, they could have Level3 discard it silently as soon as it hits their network from the Verizon side.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    98. Re:1 or 1 million by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      I guess I've always viewed the contract period as the time during which things shouldn't change and, personally, would not be upset if they no longer wanted to continue providing a plan after the contract expired. I agree that it is completely wrong for them to alter the terms mid-stream. I live in a small town and have been served by only two carriers: a very small regional (Element Mobile, within Wisconsin only) and a larger regional (US Cellular, portions of surrounding states as well). Verizon just moved in and Element seems to be in the process of selling to AT&T. Element formed around 3 years ago when Alltel was sold to Verizon and took Alltel's customers. The majority of those customers left and went to US Cellular as soon as they could because Element's service was so bad. they couldn't even charge the ETFs because they were unable to fulfill their end of the contract for most data plan coverage and such. As the fixed some issues, they started offering unlimited plans to attract customers. I've talked to Element customers who were told they were free to leave without ETF because Element was terminating their unlimited plan less than a year into a 2-year contract. That is totally wrong. Terminating after a contract is over, not so much in my book.

    99. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes, they do. At a minimum, it's false advertising.

    100. Re:1 or 1 million by marka63 · · Score: 1

      So Verizon made a bet that customers wouldn't use the unlimited data that they sold them and they lost. Tough!

      It looks like Verizon should start offering plans that reflect the actual cost to supply. Those that use the most pay the most.

      Have data caps. Throttle users once they reach those caps. This puts back pressure on the users in terms of cost.

      Provide incentive to time shift data transfers to the quieter periods. e.g. Only count 1/2 the data between 02:00 and 06:00 for
      example and let the customers know.

    101. Re:1 or 1 million by marka63 · · Score: 1

      Because it is a change of contract and if they did it to those still in the minimum contract period they would let them break the contract without them having to pay ETP.

    102. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      I would like to see the last mile become a common good but other changes would be needed to ensure fairness.

      You aren't asking for a free market, quite the opposite you are asking for last mile to be a highly regulated utility and/or socialized.

      Colin Nederkoom used a VPN link to show that he could access Netflix at almost 10x the paltry 375 kbps he was getting on his Verizon 75 Mbps symmetric service.

      That's fine. He isn't going to have any affect on the peering. Once tens of millions of people are doing that regularly it does affect peering. What works for an individual doesn't work collectively.

      The underlying issue is that Verizon is muddying the waters by being both a residential ISP AND a Tier 1 provider.

      Not really. Assume there were 3 companies:

      V1 = a residential provider only (replacing Verizon).
      V2 = Tier1 provider for V1
      Level3 = provider for Netflix

      The Netflix usage by V1's customers would still create peering problems between V2 and V1.

      I don't know how it would EVER be possible to have nearly symmetric traffic with them when their small-customer base is in the millions as end-user traffic is HIGHLY asymmetric.

      Not all. For example dropbox goes the other way. But mostly I =agree. Anyone providing traffic that is mostly designed for end user base shouldn't be on peering. Level3 is the first company to be hitting this because Netflix is too big to ignore but mostly it should be paid peering, Level3 should be passing that cost on to Netflix and Netflix passing that cost on to their paid customer base.

      There's a reason why i mentioned VyprVPN apart from them being the service used by Nederkoom to bypass Verizon's throttling - they have an online storage service as well so if customer's take advantage of this, it might help balance the traffic if Netflix acquires them.

      Netflix doesn't have to do that sneaky stuff. Verizon sells a cloud solution that is excellent. Netflix could just host out of the Verizon cloud to serve Verizon customers . Then they never have a peering problem at all since the entire transaction takes place within Verizon. Or they could host at a colo along one of Verizon's main pipes. That's much easier.

      But there's a much simpler solution that Netflix could implement - a bytecounter & traffic gen plugin that would send random data back when the user is connected to the streaming service and if they implement it unencrypted, they could have Level3 discard it silently as soon as it hits their network from the Verizon side.

      That would solve the peering problem but it would double Netflix's data usage. It would be far cheaper to pay for peering.

    103. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      So Verizon made a bet that customers wouldn't use the unlimited data that they sold them and they lost. Tough!

      Not tough. They never sold them performance guarantees or dedicated bandwidth. The agreement allows for throttling. So tought on both sides.

      It looks like Verizon should start offering plans that reflect the actual cost to supply. Those that use the most pay the most.

      They do offer such plans. They don't offer it at residential levels since they don't want to be explaining it to 30m customers. Rather they expect the Netflixs of the world to understand and handle it on their side.

    104. Re:1 or 1 million by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Nobody is really arguing for infinity here. I think the point is that their trigger number is 4.7GB, which is a pretty paltry amount of data.

      If an "all you can eat" buffet kicks someone out after their 25th plate of food I'm not going to be very sympathetic. If they claim all you can eat though and then force someone to leave after their 4th chicken wing due to "fair use policies" then I"m going to cry foul.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    105. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      "um, i think you made my point.

      I owe you an apology! Up until now I thought your point was completely different! Now that I realize that your point was that you are a total idiot, I stand corrected!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    106. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      " Verizon sells a cloud solution that is excellent. Netflix could just host out of the Verizon cloud to serve Verizon customers"
      That's fine - if Verizon is & remains excellent. But they're essentially in a monopoly position in many markets and what recourse does Netflix have if Verizon decides to amp up the charges or their cloud service start sucking donkey balls?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    107. Re:1 or 1 million by devman · · Score: 1

      No Verizon should charge a usage based model just like every other consumer utility. If Verizon isn't charging their users enough for bandwidth because of their flat rate model that is a Verizon problem. Netflix should not have to pay a premium for packets Verizon users request.

    108. Re:1 or 1 million by devman · · Score: 1

      Unless the contract specified a service level agreement for speed, Verizon is free give you unlimited data at whatever speed is reasonable. I'm not sure I've ever seen a clause for "Unlimited bandwidth means no limits above physical layer" spelled out anywhere. There is probably wiggle room on "reasonable" you'd likely have to take them to arbitration over it if you don't like it.

    109. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      jbolden... meet contract. Contract... meet jbolden.

      If you are saying they shouldn't have made any contracts like this, I agree but that equine was struck post expiration..

      RE: grandfathered... once you agree to a contract (both sides), only both sides can negate it. If you are saying they shouldn't have made this pricing model to begin with, then they would be visionaries as all the big wireless providers were doing it. I think you misunderstand that they didn't grandfather this in because they were feeling nice. ;)

    110. Re:1 or 1 million by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      If they don't want to abide by your crazy rules but still want to eat there, you can always deny them service/ask them to leave your property.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    111. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Fine prioritizing traffic paying lots for traffic paying very little.

    112. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The contract has you reverting to month to month. They can terminate.

    113. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes I know how much bandwidth costs. It costs a ton to build and a ton to maintain. It is people on slashdot who think bandwidth is free because they've never had to deal with the tremendous costs in anyway. They want it to be cheap so they like to pretend it is cheap. The same as people who don't like the complexities of housing policy so want to pretend houses can be built for $1000.

      Try doing even small parts of what a Verizon does and then be critical of what tremendous service they are giving you for $50 / month.

    114. Re:1 or 1 million by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Maybe it would be less confusing if you didn't reply to people you agree with with, "No, ..."

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    115. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Doubt Verizon is going to tell you the REAL cost of LTE. Doubt you have any access to real data about that either.
      Fess up! You pulled those numbers out of your ass.

      I have access to some of their real costs. I know some of the people who've laid down the fiber they are using and I know what that cost. I know some of the places they are hosting from. I can assume what Verizon spends on their towers is commensurate with what Sprint spends (and I do know Sprint's costs). AT&T is winning business from Verizon right now, especially in embedded because their LTE costs are lower. While it might still have a probability above 0 that Verizon has covered up their real costs and is aggressively losing business to AT&T it ain't much above 0.

      The more likely scenario is Verizon is telling the truth and you are just upset because everything in the world isn't free.

    116. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Unless the contract specified a service level agreement for speed,

      So the marketing for something is allowed to directly contradict the contract? That sounds like false advertising.

    117. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Are you a moron, or do you just play one on Slashdot?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    118. Re:1 or 1 million by devman · · Score: 1

      I've never seen any marketing materials that commit them to delivering a certain speed. At most you see stuff like "up to, blazing fast, X Mbps speed!!!111!!" which is not a commitment or guarantee.

    119. Re:1 or 1 million by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      What exactly is keeping you from enacting your plan exactly as advertised? I'm genuinely curious.

      Maybe you'd need some special kind of strip club zoning or something? Because it's legal for people to take their clothes off there, for money even. And I guess there's some requirement for that kind of thing to not be visible from the street, so you'd have to cover the windows, too.

      That you might enact the changes and immediately lose most of your revenue is beside the point. If city hall gave you the necessary permits 'n whatnot, it would be your prerogative as a business owner.

      To address your original argument, the legality of contracts has been a field for a very long time so apparently somebody somewhere is watching the system and wants it the way it is. Phone companies can put all the shit they want up on the screen in fine print. Not calling them on it is implied consent on the part of the regulatory agencies.

      So I guess my point is that when you said, "I can't just put up anything I want and have it be legal," yes...yes you can, if you're a telecom company and nobody calls you on it. That's the pragmatic truth.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    120. Re:1 or 1 million by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Go back and read the thread again. Then go away. You are either too stupid to understand what I wrote or a troll.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    121. Re:1 or 1 million by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Or option 3, your analogy sucked.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    122. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was no analogy involved you moron.

    123. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Work with Google Fiber & municipalities to build hi-speed & wireless that bypasses the monopolies

      If the municipalities were willing to fund internet for home / small business we could have a much more rational system in the United States where internet becomes a heavily subsidized if not free utility and so essentially 100% of the population uses it. The costs are bundled in taxes and upgrades to networks can be paid for with tax free municipal bonds. Yes that would be much better. But Netflix has nowhere near the pull to get those kinds of changes. The current group of crazies in power aren't funding infrastructure maintenance to things like dams or the national health system.

      What you are suggesting with VPN wouldn't help Netflix. Level3 would just have peering problems with more carriers and moreover Netflix's traffic would have much longer latencies and would be using a lot more resources as it bounced around. The global VPN providers probably couldn't handle all of Netflix's traffic today even if they wanted to. Far cheaper for everyone would be to just host a copy of Netflix's infrastructure on Verizon's cloud and eliminate the handoff entirely for Verizon's customers, the entire transaction happens inside Verizon's network. But evidently just paying the peering is even cheaper than that.

    124. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      They do that for cellular. They mostly are trying to avoid that for lad since except for very heavy users extra land traffic isn't a problem. For those extra heavy users because of Netflix its the same thing.

      Case 1: Level3 pays Verizon for peering, level3 charges Netflix, Netflix charges customers. Money goes customers -> Verizon
      Case 2: Verizon charges the customers a surcharge for traffic.

    125. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      But they're essentially in a monopoly position in many markets and what recourse does Netflix have if Verizon decides to amp up the charges or their cloud service start sucking donkey balls?

      Verizon is directly in thousands of data centers and connects to hundreds of other cloud services. Just host in any and handoff directly to Verizon with no peering at all.

    126. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      "That would solve the peering problem but it would double Netflix's data usage. It would be far cheaper to pay for peering."

      Double it's data usage where? On Level3? It's traffic to be discarded and this would prevent them from having to pay Verizon.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    127. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Netflix -> X, X-> Verizon -> Customer vs.
      Netflix -> Verizon -> Customer

      2 stop off vs. one. That's twice as much of a hit to the internet. And would stop them from paying Verizon only in so far as they pick up larger VPN fees.

    128. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      Clarification: at this point I'm not talking about a VPN bypass, only about using a bytecounter / trafficgen plugin to balance the traffic from Netflix through Level3
      So no VPN fees for either Netflix or their Verizon customers & no peering payments by Level3 to Verizon.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    129. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      just because you ramble something doesn't make it so. i am free to call my fitness plan "The Immortal Plan". a name is not a claim, therefore there is no false advertising.

    130. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      i don't agree with him. he just ended up making my point for me.

    131. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Just because you advertise it as being something doesn't mean it is or needs to be? Nope. That's false advertising.

    132. Re:1 or 1 million by EvilJoker · · Score: 1

      I don't think it's a coincidence that this change was announced shortly after the last normal contract ended.
      (June 28, 2012 is the last date people could get unlimited data contracts from VZW. There are, however, exceptions that people have discovered, which have been pretty limited)

    133. Re:1 or 1 million by EvilJoker · · Score: 1

      Virgin is a Sprint MVNO, and Cricket was recently bought by AT&T (which will likely kill it for competing)

    134. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      So you would have a bunch of VPN providers sending huge amounts of dummy traffic through Verizon's network to a fake or real address on the Level3 side (say 40 exabytes / day or whatever it would take to balance out). How is that going to be cheaper than just paying the penalty? Verizon is going to be charging those VPN companies a fortune.

    135. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. Just state what the real plans are with the appropriate prices and let the customer choose what they want.

      they do. didn't you ever read their terms of service? of course you did. you read the part that said from time to time, terms may change, and you will have advance notice of the changes in case you want to cancel your service.

      i was there. i saw you read it.

      and what changes could cause one to want to cancel one's service? how about adding clauses for termination/throttling for excessive data use, which is what verizon did over five years ago. you know what else happened over five years ago? verizon stopped using the word "unlimited" in their data plans. so, the gravy train ended long ago, and rather than moving on, you are still here muttering, "Nonsense."

      do you even have a horse in the race? did you actually take advantage of a long ago grandfathered deal, then expect data* to continue to be rained down on you at an unsustainable rate, forever? is the problem here really verizon?

      The free market in action. Just stop the fraud.

      fraud is allowed in a free market.

      *or anything, really.

    136. Re:1 or 1 million by haruchai · · Score: 1

      It's no longer about using a VPN bypass.
        That was my original idea BEFORE I thought about a TrafficGen plugin for Netflix. This dummy traffic will come from Verizon customers back to Level3,
      There'll have to be some sophistication in the design of the plugin but nothing that is particularly difficult.

      You keep mentioning that paying peering costs would be cheaper but without knowing what those costs are, how can you be sure?
      From what I've found, peering is charged by Mbps and for companies the size of Verizon & Level3, the price range appears to be $1 - 2.50 per Mbps.

      Assuming that Verizon has 10 million customers accessing Netflix, that could be million$ per day.

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    137. Re:1 or 1 million by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Well I know it because the easiest solution would have been for Netflix to have bought Verizon originally as their provider.

      Let T denote average traffic per second over the course of a day from Netflix to customers in Mbps
      Let M denote maximum traffic per day from Netflix to customers in Mbps

      Clearly T is much smaller than M, definitely an 1/8th or less, I'd assume closer to 4% and might be as low as 1%. To balance the traffic Netflix has to create return traffic equal to their current traffic.

      Case 1: Netflix buys enough additional bandwidth to handle M. Essentially what they have had to buy already from Level3.
      Case 2: Netflix pays a fee for inexpensive bandwidth for T but fro Verizon via. the peering arrangement.

      In addition the peering costs are designed around: pickup at a good location, drop off at customer site

      Level3 might be a bit cheaper than Verizon could be as low as 1/2 (though generally it isn't anywhere near that much lower). The location matters. But no way is that enough to compensate for the difference between T and M in terms of volume.

    138. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      product names are not claims, so they cannot be false. if you don't understand at this point, you're either a complete moron or just goading me to continue responding

    139. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you really have two choices: 1. punish the heaviest users; 2. punish everyone."

      So now people who purchase and pay for a service, then actually use it, are wrong-doers who should be punished? You have, of course, presented a false dichotimy. They have been serving me the data at the current rate without "punishing" anyone. That is the service I paid for, and it is what they have profited from. Their only valid choices are: 1) Don't sell the service 2) Sell the sevice, and then provide the service for which they have been paid.

      no, they haven't been providing you the service you paid for. most of the time, you're not on the phone, and they're not providing you any service. all mobile phone companies sell many times more bandwidth than they actually have. this is something you don't seem to understand.

    140. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Most countries outside the US (with any consumer protection laws), product names are advertising claims. I consider a product name that is advertised, to be an advertisement.

    141. Re:1 or 1 million by Parts09 · · Score: 1

      Funny about charging like a utility. They always love the idea for high users, but dislike the idea of refunding money for people that are way underutilized. If they charged like a utility - A small "being our customer fee" and true usage based billing, then either: A - They would have to charge enough per GB to maintin their current profit margin that people would scream at how expensive it is... or B - They would have to take a big hit in their profit because of all the internet users that aren't these super-heavy users and would have much smaller bills. In the end it points to the fact that they have under-provisioned for people to really use the service they were sold.

      --
      My opinions are completely my own and do not reflect those of any entity I may be associated with - including the voices
    142. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      I have no basis to judge your claim about non-US advertising law, but I don't see how it's relevant given we are talking about US plans. Or has my ethnocentrism gotten the best of me and somehow Verizon is marketing unlimited data plans in Europe?

    143. Re:1 or 1 million by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So you don't consider a car named "Faster Than The Mustang" to be a product claim of any kind? If GM launched that (and didn't run into any trademark issues), you wouldn't consider it a problem if the car was slower than the Mustang?

      Now, the claim would need to be related to the product. Like it's fraud to sell "fruit cocktail" in the USA that doesn't have the right percentage of cherry. And that's dependent on the product name, and is in the USA. And it wouldn't be fraud to sell the Toyota Wish, as no reasonable person would think that buying a crappy minivan would grant you a wish.

      I mentioned outside the US, because "common sense" as expressed outside the US says fraud is illegal. I know fraud in a product name is illegal in the US for some meats, fruits, and fruit cocktail. But I don't know about other areas. You assert no, but you did so absolutely, and I know for a fact you are wrong, at least with some products, so I don't trust your opinion.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F... Reality proves you wrong. Your move.

    144. Re:1 or 1 million by mattwarden · · Score: 1

      You are splitting hairs. As with anything in law, there are exceptions. I would argue that the fact that the fruit cocktail exception is so well known is because it's an oddity. I don't think your referenced section on wikipedia would have ever been authored if it was just yet another example of the base case. But also I am not sure this is even an example of what we're talking about. We are talking about product names. You are giving examples of product categories. What you're saying is that a fruit salad cannot market itself as a member of the fruit cocktail product category unless it meets certain criteria. Could "fruit cocktail" also be in the name? Sure. But it could also not be in the name and still need to abide by the rule you cite, so it is not an issue of name. Likewise with cuts of meat and different fruits. These are not dealing with product names. They are dealing with assertions that a given thing is a member of a defined product category.

      So for your examples to apply, you would need to argue that "Verizon's unlimited data plan" is a member of a product category called "unlimited data plans" that has certain attributes. You could certainly make this argument, but it seems to have a small chance of being compelling.

    145. Re: 1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government also sold Verizon 4 g with it writing in detail that they could not do this, so no matter what Verizon wants to try and stick to the 5%, yes only 5% of people still left on the unlimited plan, they are breaking their purchasing agreement... What is your reply to this?

    146. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlimited bandwidth is not possible. You can make it illegal all you want. It doesn't trump physics.

      Solution: Don't lie and call it unlimited. The point is that customers are paying for something Verizon calls "unlimited" which is not actually unlimited. The customers contracts are up so they can put those customers on other plans, the problem is when they still call the altered plan "unlimited."

      Okay, physics major... how do they get pass the government stipulation when purchasing 4g from them about not regulating it; about advertising it as unlimited? They do what they should do as a profiting company that is borrowing technology from the government, they upgrade and invest in small, but equally powerful tech... seriously, I guess you're either a mole or somebody that works only the install part of the company and you don't know squat about actual tech... little thing called r&d... which, unlike what verizon advertises as their own, isn't actually their technology.. basically skimming off the top of another technology only for profit... they need to invest... oh darn, their own money instead of leeching off of others, to improve the technology... but instead, they want to try and limit their 4g to the 5% of people still using it... anybody smell greed here? Get over yourself and understand the background of this technology....

    147. Re:1 or 1 million by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, pssst... other companies are starting to do this.. second... pssst, it's only 5% they have to provide this too... step back for a second and think about this...

  2. You can't sell what you don't have! by The+New+Guy+2.0 · · Score: 1

    Limits exist in the Verizon backbones, so they can't sell a truly unlimited plan and let everybody use it. This isn't the switched line network, it's the packet switched network...

    1. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by TheMeuge · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with their network infrastructure, and everything to do with the fact that they would like you to pay out of pocket to stream media on their network. With a 10gb monthly limit on my 4 user plan, if I go away on a trip and watch 3-4 netflix movies in HD, I've used up my entire monthly allowance, and then streaming becomes pay-per-view at $10+ per movie.

      They are annoyed that they have customers who still have an "unlimited" plan, and they are effectively converting those users to having a usable 5gb plan.

    2. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful
      If the idea of "unlimited" bothers you, then think of an unlimited plan as being capped at whatever the technology currently being used would allow you to download 24/7 at whatever speed the network can support, for the entire billing cycle. As technology improves, that limit goes up... without any predefined limit.

      Which is, of course, what "unlimited" means. So in reality, the term is quite accurate. The fact that a person can't physically download an infinite amount of content in a finite period because network speeds are finite is entirely irrelevant.

    3. Re: You can't sell what you don't have! by alen · · Score: 0

      There is more to do on a cell phone than just watch netflix

    4. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by DivineKnight · · Score: 2

      You know, people used to see that as an excuse to upgrade their network capacity religiously. 10Mbit not fast enough? Let's go buy some 100Mbit equipment. 100Mbit equipment not fast enough? Let's go buy some 1000Mbit stuff. People would invest time and money getting to that next tier, because they wanted to make sure they never hit 75% network utilization as a religion. And that passion, that fire is gone today. Instead we have fat network execs who are bleeding people dry while complaining that it costs too much to upgrade to the next tier, or even throw on a few more ports of the current stuff. People who think that we need fast lanes and slow lanes...I tell you, if you need to switch on QoS on your network, the pipe is already too small. The only QoS you need for a network is a little counter for dropped packets, which should be studied by seeding something on bit torrent and trying to Skype to somewhere in Asia...if you've done it right, you won't notice any degradation. Net Neutrality? Fairness? I believe in the inherent fairness that comes with TCP / IP. Fight for your right to transmit and receive...all network devices are equal in the eyes of the firewall.

    5. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      You are seriously clueless. Verizon publishes earning reports. The target across the industry for cell (all providers) is $37 billion in LTE capex and $56 billion in opex. That's not failing to spend.

    6. Re: You can't sell what you don't have! by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      Streaming media is by far the largest consumer of bandwidth.

    7. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Yet they show 49.5% profit on wireless last year.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    8. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's opex it doesn't count capex.

    9. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are annoyed that they have customers who still have an "unlimited" plan, and they are effectively converting those users to having a usable 5gb plan.

      Actually, they are annoyed that their business model (marketing an "unlimited" plan, with the expectation few would actually use it was unlimited) collided with Netflix(s) business model of selling unlimited HD video content (for which user satisfaction requires high bandwidth unlimited data plans).

      Unless one can repeal the laws of physics (and the Shannon-Hartley theorem), bandwidth limits are real. There are no cheap/easy/quick solutions. Anyone who thinks otherwise should prove their business acumen, and start a new competitor.

    10. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by sacrilicious · · Score: 1

      There is a huge difference between "limited by physical laws to the best of humankind's understanding of them" and "limited by policy". Your implication that Verizon has been portraying "unlimited" to mean "any amount of data in any arbitrarily small amount of time regardless of physics" is utter drivel... bullshit of the most asinine form.

      --
      - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
    11. Re:You can't sell what you don't have! by mark-t · · Score: 1

      My implication is that "unlimited" means it is ultimately limited only by available technology, which has no set limit in how good it can get, and so is still really unlimited.

  3. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just sounds like QOS if it's only on congested towers. Which makes sense. Although they should be throttling everyone on that tower, not just the people who happen to use a lot of data elsewhere.

    1. Re:Well... by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      Although they should be throttling everyone on that tower, not just the people who happen to use a lot of data elsewhere.

      What they should be doing is being honest and not calling it unlimited, and charging a reasonable amount for overage (not $10/gb!).

    2. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think $10/GB would be reasonable considering that they charge $30 for 3GB. Unreasonable is the $10/MB overage charges we've seen.

      But once unlimited no longer becomes worth it, I'll either move to prepaid or get subsidized phones again (and then move to prepaid after contract is up)

  4. Check your Facebook autoplay settings by abe+ferlman · · Score: 2

    I was sent a warning message about this, I'm still grandfathered in on the unlimited plan. I looked at my usage and over 4G of traffic was from facebook... apparently because I was auto-playing videos. Turning this off on an iphone requires you to go to the settings menu on the phone (not, confusingly, the settings menu in the facebook app, but the facebook app settings in the phone settings menu). You can set it to auto-play only on wifi or never.

    --
    microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
    1. Re:Check your Facebook autoplay settings by abe+ferlman · · Score: 1

      Of course, unlimited means unlimited so I don't know why it's limited, but as a practical matter there you go.

      --
      microsoftword.mp3 - it doesn't care that they're not words...
    2. Re:Check your Facebook autoplay settings by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Or spend less time on Facebook.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    3. Re:Check your Facebook autoplay settings by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Here's my favorite:

      "If you think "unlimited" means "unlimited", then clearly you don't understand economics."

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    4. Re:Check your Facebook autoplay settings by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I looked at my usage and over 4G of traffic was from facebook... apparently because

      ...you were fool enough to continue to trust Facebook to run code on your phone after their various apps have run fast and free with users' private data.

      I get why you would use facebook, but I'll never understand why you might trust them to run code on your phone.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  5. First Netflix by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

    Then the users. Perhaps every of their customers should begin throttling payments. But coming from an industry where charging both the sender and recipient of the same SMS is the way to do business, not surprising.

    --
    I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  6. what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by gTsiros · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that takes 5 GB per month?

    do you HAVE to stream entire movies and music to it?

    why not copy stuff to its storage and maybe save some wireless bandwidth?

    --
    Looking for people to chat about multicopters, coding, music. skype: gtsiros
    1. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I pay Verizon an extra $30/month so I can tether my phone for the hour-or-so mass transit commute each way. That adds up pretty quickly, often ending out over 5GB. The $30 fee is just for people tethering on "unlimited" plans. Can I stop paying the $30 now?

    2. Re: what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Brilliant! Except one thing: DMCA

    3. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      B-b-b-b-but that would actually make sense, and we can't have that.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    4. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by tlambert · · Score: 1

      that takes 5 GB per month?

      do you HAVE to stream entire movies and music to it?

      why not copy stuff to its storage and maybe save some wireless bandwidth?

      Maybe Verizon FIOS is his hem provider, and either way, he hits a dumb ass Verizon data cap because they've gotten state laws passed to prevent cities from building their own infrastructure?

    5. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by ThatsMyNick · · Score: 1

      do you HAVE to stream entire movies and music to it?

      I dont have to, but I want to. Why do think I signed up for their unlimited plan. If I were only using 5GB a month, I would switch to republic wireless instead.

      why not copy stuff to its storage and maybe save some wireless bandwidth?

      Because I dont have the space, and I am instead paying for unlimited data.

    6. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Man, it must be nice to live in an area where Verizon doesn't have a monopoly over your choice of wire-line internet service, and then only offers you 7 Mbps ADSL that drops out when it rains.

      Also, it's a *smartphone*, not a cellphone. We're not talking about sending 5 GB in text messages, here. Just having your phone on and connected to 4G will use up at least a few gigabytes per month downloading incessant updates to the **built-in apps** (most of which can't be disabled on many phones without voiding your warranty). If you actually wanted to, I don't know, download an app of your choice (or TWO?!) from the Play Store, and then actually use the latest version of that app, you're done. Cooked. 5 GB and beyond.

      Chrome is 30+ MB. Verizon's own "My Verizon" app is something like 11 MB. Samsung has hundreds of megs of apps installed, and some of them update twice a week. Updates have to re-download the entire program, even resources that don't change, so you end up blowing through tons of data that way.

      This type of thinking is wrong-headed. The question shouldn't be "what are you doing that takes 5 GB per month". The question should be "why haven't cellular data providers figured out a way to offer more than 5 GB per month at a reasonable price in the past decade". After all, Verizon argued that considering ISPs to be subject to Title II regulations would severely hinder innovation. By implication, by them being a Title I carrier, they've been innovating as fast as humanly possible. A decade of serious "innovation" in the wireless data space and we're still looking at exactly the same caps? Oh, excuse me, the $105/month plan is for a whopping 15 GB. That's enough for about five Netflix movies per month, assuming you disable all app updates.

      You also don't seem to grok the raw convenience factor of tethering. Let's say you're on a bus, in your car, on a train, at a remote work location, whatever -- you're somewhere, and you either don't have the password to get access to the wireless network, or it's down, or there just ISN'T one. Well, you really need to do this one thing, see, and... if you HAD a phone that had unlimited data and 4G, you could just whip it out, turn on the hotspot, connect up your ultrabook, and away you go. But you don't, so you don't understand what you're missing. You just sigh and go "oh well, I'll drive back home and do it then" or something like that. Wasted potential.

      Unlimited data (plus tethering) really creates a demand for it once you are exposed to it, just like Apple created a demand for high-res touchscreen mobile devices with the advent of the iPad and iPhone. It's understandable that the vast majority of the population can't comprehend why this would be useful, because the window during which unlimited data was available was very small (only a few years), and then it closed again.

      Oh, there is one last "minor" thing that having unlimited data plus tethering enables you to do. It means that you no longer depend on your local monopoly to bring a high-speed fiber/coax/ethernet ISP to your house. Maybe they did a study and considered that your neighbors are luddites, and so you aren't worthy of their service. Well, if you don't have a cellular option, you're SOL. If you DO have a cellular option, it can be perfectly viable replacement for carriers' refusal to roll out their service to your *entire* town. I'm looking at you, FiOS. Gee, the company that advertises FiOS has an awfully similar name to the company that's turning the screws on unlimited data plans now. I wonder why that is.

      P.S.: For those of you who say that "there's only so much spectrum", you are really missing the point. The point is this: given a certain number of users per square mile; the spectral efficiency of a protocol; the desired upstream/downstream targets for each user; and a spectrum width (in Hz), it is possible to calculate a finite number for the minimum tower density required to support each of the users in that area with truly unlimited data. Unlimited as in, they can

    7. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by kesuki · · Score: 1

      good comment but i have a bit more detail. if you use wifi on your smartphone then it uses about 200mb a month for light in car use (not as driver though)
      verizon and walmart have a 20 year contract for pay as you go, unlimited data for their straighttalk wireless users.
      the 'average' smartphone user uses 1 gb per month based on verizons numbers.
      verizon is crying crocodile tears here, cause 'poor folk' can afford unlimited wireless and can and will stream music and videos if they don't cost them money and the buffering isn't too bad, especially if they are paying $45 a month for unlimited everything from walmart, without a contract (if you use a used phone, or buy a pay as you go phone)
      verizon rampantly spies on users and when making a slow lane for torrenters they realized legal streaming customers were using their expensive hardware for old contracts of unlimited data that are no longer offered to new customers.
      despite the fact there is dark fiber and dark spectrum. why can one apartment building have wifi from every user and has only a small spectrum of broadcast yet cell carriers are supposedly restrained by their data networks capabilities? hah, this plan to only throttle when a tower is over-saturated is a bait and switch scam, they will take down towers and claim their networks are over-saturated and throttle the networks so no one can use it so they can put cheaper gear in their towers. i just spent $100 on a wireless router and it's radio is almost double the signal of the old $40 walmart router. fwiw it's a 1750ac router. and fwiw the same router sells for $180 at walmart, but i bought it online. anyways better gear costs more and thus this is just verizon lying about why they want permission to throttle wireless signals they want to use cheaper hardware and take down towers. the sad part though is that a modern communication satellite can transmit over 1,000 channels of 1080i sized channels of broadcast, as long as it doesn't have to process the signals onboard. i've heard as high as 5000 channels and that is from a hundred some odd miles above the sky... wireless signals have way more bandwidth it is just that terrestrial based com signals are all processed so it can be spied on, and processing that is not as cheap as unprocessed (in the sky) data.

    8. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't know what Verizon sells theirs for, but I have 4G LTE as my internet connection for all of my computers via a WiFi modem. It's faster than my ADSL was (although with more latency) because the copper from my home is just too long for more than 8/1.

      One of the big advantages is that I can take my laptop anywhere in the country (not the US) and have internet connectivity.

      I use considerably more than 5GB per month (often several GB per day) and am very happy that my provider isn't throttling the connection, especially since nothing of the sort was part of the contract.

      On the other hand, my old cell contract several years earlier before cell data was such a big thing had unlimited data that was throttled down after a certain monthly cap, but that was explicitly stipulated in the contract, not unilaterally decided afterwards.

    9. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Lord+Crc · · Score: 1

      If I'd listen to di.fm on my way to and from work, which takes me about an hour each way, it would be about 4.6 GB per month just there.

      Now if I paid for an "unlimited" plan, I would expect such casual usage to be perfectly within the bounds of "unlimited".

    10. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Yes. Tethering is free on the metered plans.

    11. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      "why haven't cellular data providers figured out a way to offer more than 5 GB per month at a reasonable price in the past decade".

      They have. The FCC has. They need much more of the spectrum to do it which means shutting off broadcast TV which no one uses. The Republicans in congress turned the FCC down, because you know we can never do what Obama wants.

      A decade of serious "innovation" in the wireless data space and we're still looking at exactly the same caps?

      The amount of data they are carrying on wireless today is far greater than the amount they were carrying in 2004 by over an order of magnitude. You are simply dead wrong about this. The retail caps were mostly meaningless when it was EVDO. It is because LTE is so much better that they matter.

      Well, if you don't have a cellular option, you're SOL.

      No you aren't. If you are using that much data buy a business plan. Verizon (or dozens of other carriers) will be happy to sell you as much ethernet landline bandwidth as you want you just have to pay for it.

      The problem is that Verizon, and the other carriers, are unwilling to spend money on more towers. They already have towers that have existed since the days before cellular data was a thing, and there was only voice. They want to keep using those same towers forever, and not build any new ones. It looks good for the bottom line when their cash on hand doesn't go down because they're spending money for the future.

      That's just not true. Verizon has done tremendous network expansion. Read their earnings reports.

      Cellular data has the POTENTIAL to be a fully adequate replacement for wired internet,

      No it does not have the potential. Doubling the usage between now and 2017 is going to cost the carriers about $100b. Replacing wired all together would be trillions. Who is going to pay for that?

    12. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      You know I'd love to do that, but Google wants me to buy some Cloud storage that's only there if I'm connected to the internet, only there if I have data left this cycle, and only 5s of latency to open the file if I have a solid LTE signal in a non-downtown area. Otherwise (and believe me, there's a lot of otherwise), forget it.

      So they don't put microSD slots in their phones anymore. Dummies.
      Thankfully I just stopped fighting on this matter. I have one station that I like to stream if I want some background music, it's 100kbit/s streaming ogg (sounds great honestly and I'm pretty picky), and I just have gotten in the habit of deleting songs I don't want to listen to again and keep my phone simply as a "fun-music" device storing about 3GB of individual songs I actually want to hear again, which I use for playing in my car via bluetooth that auto-connects when I get in and auto-plays on auto-connect. Can't beat the convenience.

    13. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      You would actually buy a phone that does not support any form of removable storage? That would be a show-stopper for me.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    14. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Tethering is free on the metered plans.

      Whoosh!

      What that poster was saying is that Verizon has now defined the "unlimited data" plan as being a "metered 4.7GB" plan ... so surely Verizon will now allow users on this plan to tether without additional fees just like on every other Verizon metered plan.

      Lol.

      Interesting question is if Verizon believes that using more than 4.7GB per month is unreasonably high, then why does Verizon offer individual data plan buckets of 6GB and even 8GB?

    15. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Those people on unlimited plans should be switching. Verizon probably should make switching to a plan commensurate with their current cost structure a no brainer.

      Interesting question is if Verizon believes that using more than 4.7GB per month is unreasonably high, then why does Verizon offer individual data plan buckets of 6GB and even 8GB?

      They offer more than that. You can get 20g+ plans. You just pay $5 a gig (contract) or $15 / gig (pay as you go) for those plans. Those customers are paying for their usage.

    16. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting question is if Verizon believes that using more than 4.7GB per month is unreasonably high, then why does Verizon offer individual data plan buckets of 6GB and even 8GB?

      They offer more than that. You can get 20g+ plans. You just pay $5 a gig (contract) or $15 / gig (pay as you go) for those plans. Those customers are paying for their usage.

      NO, THEY ARE NOT.

      Verizon says less than 5% of their users are using more than 4.7GB which suggests that many of the users paying for larger plans are not using what they've paid for. OTOH people still on "unlimited" plans may have been paying (and will continue to pay) $70 per month for lesser plans -- $30 for the plan and $40 for the right to select the plan (assuming smartphone subsidy of $500 spread out over 12 months)

    17. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      The subsidy isn't nearly that high, more like $17-22 month: $350-450 over 20-24 months. And they aren't paying for what they are using. Verizons price for pay as you go is $15 / gig. The $5 / gig price assumes you go under. That allows retail to average about $8 / gig for gigs used.

    18. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      5000 HD video channels, with a footprint of 1/3 the planet converted to a data channel (downlink only) works out to about 5,000 x 6 MB / 500,000,000 = 60 bytes per second. And that's why satellite internet sucks. With cell towers your individual bandwidth is a function of how many people are using that tower. If you aren't getting enough you add towers, simple as that. It just costs money and the cell companies find it's more profitable to throttle than upgrade their network. Throttling your internet/cellphone is free, so long as everyone does it to prevent competition.

    19. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      "The amount of data they are carrying on wireless today is far greater than the amount they were carrying in 2004 by over an order of magnitude. You are simply dead wrong about this. The retail caps were mostly meaningless when it was EVDO. It is because LTE is so much better that they matter."

      I didn't claim that the carriers carry the same amount of data as they did in 2004. I claimed that the caps are the same. This is a fact. I remember the 5 GB cap on their "limited unlimited" plan when I first started using Verizon BroadbandAccess. Today on Verizon Wireless' website, the most data you can buy is 100 GB per month (which, let's be honest, is peanuts in 2014 for any Internet-connected service provider aside from cellular data) -- and for that you have to pay $750 per month. That works out to a rate of $7.5 per gigabyte. If you go over 100 GB, the rate is, exasperatingly, DOUBLE that, at $15 per gigabyte. That rate of $15 per gigabyte is HIGHER than it was in 2003 when I got my first Windows Mobile smartphone!

      What I claimed, and what is correct and NOT "simply dead wrong", is that the value that the carriers place on transferring 1 GB of data over cellular data networks is valued somewhere in the ballpark of $10 per GB. In the best case, it's valued at 25% less (for your first 100 GB). In the worst case, it's valued at 50% more (for data overages). The failure here is that, while just about every other service in the world that has anything to do with computing has steadily reduced the price per unit of measurement -- price per FLOPS, price per GB of storage, price per GB of wireline data, price per GB of RAM, etc -- cellular data has remained stagnant. That's not innovation. In fact, it looks like inflation will continue to drive the price per GB of cellular data higher and higher as time goes on.

      The fact that they are carrying an order of magnitude more traffic just means that more and more people are jumping on the cellular data bandwagon and using their 5 GB per month. If the carriers can't keep up with the demand, they should simply stop selling new plans, not oversubscribe their network to increasingly higher levels of saturation and then raise the price as demand keeps increasing. If too many people try to bring their kids into one pediatrician's office, to the point where they are totally booked for months, does the pediatrician raise the price of an office visit by 50%? No. He stops accepting new patients, OR he brings new doctors into his practice. It's really that simple.

      "No you aren't. If you are using that much data buy a business plan. Verizon (or dozens of other carriers) will be happy to sell you as much ethernet landline bandwidth as you want you just have to pay for it."

      A business plan of *what*, exactly? I went on Verizon's website and looked up the available business plans at my address. Oh, look, I can't get Business FiOS, but they can offer me overpriced ADSL at up to a whopping 7 Mbps! AFK while I go sign up for that. /sarc

      The fact is, if such and such a service isn't available at your address, saying "I'm a business!" isn't going to magically make the carriers fall over you to bring service to you. If the wires aren't in the ground, they're not going to dig up the street just because you declared yourself a Sole Proprietorship. And if they do, it's going to cost more than your mortgage. Also, I'm not using "that" much data -- 75 to 120 GB is in the range of what content consumers (as well as content creators) would want to use in a month, for at least the past 10 years. Ever hear of video? How about downloading 3 GB OS images? Yeah. The whole internet isn't made of gzipped plain text and HTML. Apparently VZW thinks it is, though.

      "That's just not true. Verizon has done tremendous network expansion. Read their earnings reports."

      I read their earnings reports. I saw record profits that far outstrip their expenditures. For a public utility that acts as a force multiplier for entire industries of the economy that depend on the

    20. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by tlambert · · Score: 1

      With cell towers your individual bandwidth is a function of how many people are using that tower. If you aren't getting enough you add towers, simple as that. It just costs money and the cell companies find it's more profitable to throttle than upgrade their network. Throttling your internet/cellphone is free, so long as everyone does it to prevent competition.

      This.

    21. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by tlambert · · Score: 1

      "why haven't cellular data providers figured out a way to offer more than 5 GB per month at a reasonable price in the past decade".

      They have. The FCC has. They need much more of the spectrum to do it which means shutting off broadcast TV which no one uses.

      Funny. The way NTT solved the problem a quarter of a century ago was to increase cell density to decrease per cell load. They don't need more spectrum.

    22. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe because your iphone doesn't have an SDcard, and now android phones are loosing them too...
      and everyone is pushing a streaming service now too....
      so yes please i would like to keep my unlimited 4g data that i have been grandfathered into and not have to pay an absurd bill because me and my family use the shit out of it

    23. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There is an easier way to solve your rural problem. Have the rural government purchase the internet and make it a tax. In just about every suburb or x-burb something like $1000 / house would be plenty to get them fully wired up for 100mbit+ data connections. Have the local government pay for the wiring, or subsidize the wiring and the problem is solved. In terms of rural there may not be any economically viable way to connect them. Cellular data might provide an answer but its unclear if it does, because a lot of rural customers are also poor and mostly unwilling to spend for data.
        Which BTW since you like the analogy of electricity, having the governments massively subsidize the cost (effectively buying it for the population) is precisely how the country ended up getting wired. Starting with local governments, then states then federal as the areas got less and less dense.

      the most data you can buy is 100 GB per month

      Nonsense. You can buy 100t blocks from Verizon to allocate among phones. The most you can buy on a consumer grade plan is 100g to allocate between phones that's very very different. Once you start using that kind of large scale data they want you buying through an agent.

      It's really not that hard -- it's been done in the past for other types of service.

      It is that hard. Lots of services aren't economical to provide anywhere or only in very concentrated areas. There are all sorts of services one can buy in New York that aren't even available in other large cities. There are all sorts of services one can buy in cities that aren't available in suburbs... There is nothing unusual about internet. The size of the customer base / density matters, it matters a lot.

      . But it's way too much to be paying $20 or $30 or more for that kind of download. Especially when, most times, the *content itself* is also very expensive.

      Then mail DVDs back and forth. Netflix still offers that service. That's the way people did it up until a few years ago. That's cheaper bandwidth.

      As loudly as they will cry crocodile tears at the prospect, we simply have to regulate them, and yes, cut down their profit-making potential a bit, in order to usher in an enormous boost to the rest of the economy. Content creators, advertisers, online goods retailers like Amazon and Valve, etc. are chomping at the bit to sell reasonably-priced goods to consumers that are chomping at the bit to purchase them. But the carriers are acting as a bottleneck, preventing this potential from being realized,

      That's true of all sorts of corollary services for goods. If everyone had a 5000 sq foot home: gardening services, furniture companies, carpet cleaners, car dealers... would make a fortune. Its only the fact that there is a price difference between what it costs to sell 5000sq of home vs 800 sq feet that prevents all that economic gain. If there really were that much economic gain to be had then internet would be provided via. a system where the people selling the goods would be the ones paying Verizon to get access to customers and problem solved.

      ____

      As for the comments about 5g. You are missing the point about the caps. You are also missing the actual financials. A gig of data was often around several hundred dollars to buy. The caps were essentially unlimited based on the phones not really offering services that made large data usage appealing. Even the customers on dataplans were mostly doing stuff like compressed email or compressed text webpages. The usage has entirely shifted. Today customers on a 5gig cap are likely to be not be using .1%-1% of that cap but more like 25-90% of that cap i.e. 100x as much data for the same price.

      Certainly Verizon could meter data but retail customers hate metering. So what you get are metered plans with the metering obscured partially. You can't really talk about these plans as if the obscured metering was the real price.

    24. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There are limits to density depending on signal strength. You want signal strength for penetration. Verizon, AT&T... are hitting those problems in cities.

    25. Re:what the hell are you doing on your cellphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like someone has "bandwidth envy".

      It isn't a matter of having to... it is you can. Do you HAVE to use a computer at all? Nope. Many folks around the world prove that. So, it is only a line drawn in the sand and you have chosen to draw your line closer to Verizon than the next guy... and that is OK granted you don't moan about others' lines.

      If this is tough for you to understand/accept, take a look and you'll see this in every aspect of your life.

  7. Small effect? by Moof123 · · Score: 1

    So if it only hits a handful of folks, then the overall improvement on the network will be minimal, right? So what the heck is the point?

    Why not take the buttloads of profit you a-holes are making an build out your network instead of coming up with this Rube Goldberg throttling crap?

    1. Re:Small effect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small number of users does not necessarily imply small effect. The entire point is that they are disproportionate users.

    2. Re:Small effect? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Why not take the buttloads of profit you a-holes are making an build out your network instead of coming up with this Rube Goldberg throttling crap?

      When this question was put to Lowell C. McAdam, CEO of Verizon, his response was, "Because fuck you, that's why. And by the way, sign this new user agreement where you give away any rights to sue Verizon for anything ever for the rest of your life and agree to instead face arbitration by that group of Verizon lawyers, sitting right over there with the "Fuck You, That's Why" t-shirts".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:Small effect? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Verizon market-tested the new corporate slogan of "Fuck You, That's Why". It tested very badly, but they decided to go ahead and use it because, you guessed it, "Fuck You, That's Why".

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  8. This is one fine way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to lose customers to Sprint.

  9. Just until the news cycle moves on... by TheReaperD · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is just until the news cycle finds its next shinny bloodbath and moves on. Once that happens, then Verizon will slap the bandwidth cap on all the time in every place. They're just trying to find a way to annoy these people into changing plans or switching to another provider without it making front page news.

    --
    "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    1. Re:Just until the news cycle moves on... by LordLimecat · · Score: 2

      So in other words, its a non issue, but we should get pissed off over a non issue just so that when it hypothetically becomes a real issue we will have already expressed the correct amount of outrage?

      Im not clear how this works.

    2. Re:Just until the news cycle moves on... by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

      So in other words, its a non issue, but we should get pissed off over a non issue just so that when it hypothetically becomes a real issue we will have already expressed the correct amount of outrage?

      Companies float these trial balloons to see if it gets shot down out of the sky.
      If it doesn't, then they progress to the next stage of the trial.

      So yes, get pissed off at "a non issue," because with enough outrage, most companies will say "I'm sorry" and then pull back.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  10. BOHICA by ShaunC · · Score: 2

    Who is Verizon not fucking over? I'm not even their customer and I feel like I need some lube, just from hearing about these things. I would never, ever buy any service from Verizon. Every business they're in, they seem to take pleasure in punishing their customers just for using what they tried to purchase.

    It's bad enough dealing with Comcast, but thankfully I don't rely on them for all of my services (despite their best efforts) and Sprint treats me pretty well for cell service.

    --
    Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    1. Re:BOHICA by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Who is Verizon not fucking over? I'm not even their customer and I feel like I need some lube, just from hearing about these things. I would never, ever buy any service from Verizon. Every business they're in, they seem to take pleasure in punishing their customers just for using what they tried to purchase.

      Look, Verizon is clearly evil and it seems almost everything they do only compounds their evil factor... but this is not one of those things. This is perfectly reasonable on the surface: Overloaded tower, less intensive customers line up first in the queue. Utterly fair. If I were a Verizon customer, I would be happy with this; especially if I were not on an unlimited plan. Even if I were on an unlimited plan, if I had already downloaded 4GB of data, I would be cool with sharing the limited resources with others.

      Of course, knowing Verizon, they will pull cell towers down to ensure that the top 5% are being throttled at all times... but on the surface, this announcement is a good thing.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    2. Re:BOHICA by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This is perfectly reasonable on the surface: Overloaded tower, less intensive customers line up first in the queue.

      What's fair is to give an equal share of the bandwidth not being used for voice to every active customer, and to build out more capacity if you're running out.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. AT&T Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even on the unlimited plan with AT&T, I received a message that my data would be throttled because I exceeded 3Gb during the billing period. I was in the process of moving - no wifi at home for a bit - and using Pandora regularly.

    Even though I was grandfathered into the unlimited data plan, I was still mildly annoyed that a mere 3Gb would be sufficient cause to throttle my data use. Obviously the network can only handle so much, so the company needs to manage its resources, but throttling should be reserved for those who exceed their plans' data limits. Or for those of us with supposedly unlimited, reserved for those who truly abuse the 'unlimited' - maybe 50 gigs - with that line clearly publicized, not just sprung on the user with a text message.

  12. I'm affected by this, and... by allquixotic · · Score: 2

    I'm definitely meeting all the conditions required to be throttled. I'm going to wait until October to see what the impact is for me. Whether or not I stay with Verizon will depend on the severity of the throttling, and how frequently the tower where I live suffers from saturation.

    As long as I get at least EvDO speeds (over LTE, for the lower ping and IPv6), I'll probably stay with Verizon and continue my existing usage pattern. I use about 70 to 150 GB per month. I tether with the (legitimate) mobile hotspot feature, enabled by paying an extra $30/mo. I don't have a wireline Internet connection because Comcast is unreliable and doesn't care to fix it, and Verizon, despite telling me in 2007 that we could get FiOS in a matter of weeks, is still only offering us 7 Mbps ADSL.

    I usually do most of my downloading/uploading at off-peak hours, anyway. I'm fine with firing off a 25 GB download on Steam at 11 PM and letting it run through the night. It's unlikely to be throttled at that time, because the tower won't be saturated. The population density where I live is strictly suburban (full-size houses, not town homes), so I don't think it'll be saturated very often.

    If the throttling gives me so little bandwidth that I can't even stream 720p H264, I'm outta there. Might have to move to an area that has decent wireline service. But I can tell you for certain that it won't be Verizon or any company related to it in any way. Once I decide that Verizon has put the last straw on me, I am not going to spend another penny on that company for the rest of my life, and will go out of my way to ensure that nobody I know spends a penny on them, or at least make them seriously reevaluate their choice of service provider, for both cellular and wireline service.

    Verizon's taking a real risk with this. If the throttling is only 50-60% of the normal speed, I probably won't even notice, since my bandwidth needs during prime time are usually modest (720p streaming video might be the MOST I ask for, and in many cases I'll just be surfing the web or coding). If the throttling is 90-95% of the potential throughput, they will convert a long-time advocate (since the Windows Mobile early EvDO days) into a bitter enemy, spewing vitriol and anti-Verizon word of mouth everywhere I go for the rest of my life. Are they prepared to live with that consequence?

    Oh, and they'll lose my $700 cash infusion that I supply them approximately yearly when I pay full retail to upgrade my phone. Hope they can live without that, too.

    Oh, and my $200/month (family-wide) cellular bill.

    Oh, plus the fact that I've successfully convinced tens of people in the past, who already have a suitable wireline connection at home, to subscribe to Verizon limited data plans because they actually do offer more data for less money than their competitors, and the service reliability and availability is second to none.

    Dear Verizon: if you're reading this, you better go easy on the throttling. If you don't, look to lose about $10,000 per month in revenue by the time I get done canceling my service and talking to my connections about Verizon and they start pulling the plug. I'm a very convincing and influential person. People follow my lead, especially when it comes to technology. I wonder how many other people like me out there are souring to your business by your anti-consumer practices. Are you really OK with staring into the abyss? Is it really your goal to force people who've loved your company for over a decade to do an about-face and tear you down?

    All because you couldn't deploy a few more towers, because cost cutting and the bottom line. That type of reasoning is a plague that needs to be rooted out and eradicated, starting with deporting the MBAs who come up with this shit.

    1. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Oh, plus the fact that I've successfully convinced tens of people in the past, who already have a suitable wireline connection at home, to subscribe to Verizon limited data plans because they actually do offer more data for less money than their competitors, and the service reliability and availability is second to none.

      You cruel, cynical bastard. How often do you have to change your name?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I use about 70 to 150 GB per month.

      ok... Verizon's taking a real risk with this, Oh, and they'll lose my $700 cash infusion that I supply them approximately yearly, oh, and my $200/month (family-wide) cellular bill... Oh, plus the fact that I've successfully convinced tens of people in the past,

        Hope they can live without that, too.

      You bet they can. say 3000/year? For 70-150GB per month? I pay $1500/year at least, and use maybe 15-20GB per YEAR.

      So yeah, you make them twice as much $, but use 10x as much bandwidtih. That makes people like ME 5x more profitable than you are.

      They'd be happy to lose you, and anyone like you.

      If you don't, look to lose about $10,000 per month in revenue by the time I get done canceling my service and talking to my connections about Verizon and they start pulling the plug.

      In reality, your connections are mostly in contract, and cant switch anyway. Plus despite your outrage, they are satisfied with their service.

      I'm a very convincing and influential person.

      And the guy in the mirror agrees with you, so you must be right.

      I wonder how many other people like me out there are souring to your business by your anti-consumer practices.

      Less than a fraction of a percent of its least profitable paying customers. Your better than people who don't pay their bill, that's about it it.

    3. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Your entire post is based on the fallacy that each bit I transmit costs them money. This is simply not true.

      Fact 1: Major ISPs such as Verizon have peering agreements with other Tier 1 and Tier 2 ISPs that run in the millions of dollars, for terabits per second of bandwidth.

      Fact 2: Even the heaviest mobile data users are a drop in the bucket, in terms of bandwidth usage, compared to a typical FiOS customer. Even DSL customers likely use more, because there's no cap, so they can happily stream 7 Mbps of movies 18 hours a day.

      Fact 3: Population density is finite, and does not increase to infinity. Also, in the US, population density in all but a very small number of places (so-called "cities") is much lower than in densely populated areas of other countries. So even if your argument is that "without people like you, they could put more customers on their towers", it doesn't hold water because there are only so many people within the service area of a tower. If at any point that tower isn't saturated, that is called "waste" -- where there was a potential for bandwidth to be used during a given time slot, but it lay fallow for that period. Most towers outside of major gathering places, such as sports stadiums, have vast periods where they are not saturated, and are usually only mildly saturated even during peak hours. I can substantiate this because I have observed LTE throughput many times at different locations over a period of years, in areas where there's good signal strength, and I can count on one hand the number of times where I've seen oddly reduced throughput (that's not throttling; that's the tower physically being unable to give you the bandwidth you request because more throughput is being requested than is actually available). That includes going into two major East Coast cities several dozen times and testing the waters on the bandwidth while I'm there.

      Fact 4: The maximum useful tower density is finite, because microwave radiation experiences gradual signal loss by traveling through the medium of the air, and by spreading out (diffusing) as it travels. The further it travels, the more loss there is. That's why you can't point a USB WiFi stick in the general direction of the UK from somewhere like New York and get a good signal from a Starbucks in London. The point is that many LTE towers, being at a distance of 10 to 15 miles apart from one another, are already near the limit of where they start experiencing too much signal loss due to distance. So basically Verizon has deployed the towers as far apart as physically possible, yet they are dragging their feet on deploying more towers to handle more capacity. There is an enormous amount of potential for the expansion of capacity that is simply not being used.

      Consider this: if Verizon has an unmetered peering agreement with another Tier 1, which is not at 100% utilization, and the tower I'm connected to is not at 100% utilization, the only cost I am incurring upon Verizon by transmitting my data is the electricity to pass my packets from the tower through the network. It's very, very close to being free, and several orders of magnitude less than $10 per GB, which is the going rate for capped data overages.

      All I'm doing is using the existing infrastructure more efficiently by not having it sit idle.

      IF the utilization increases to the point where the tower is saturated, which is moderated by Fact 3 and easily relieved by deploying towers as suggested by Fact 4, then the tower will already -- by the necessities of physics -- "throttle" me, in the sense that I won't get the full throughput that I could be getting if the tower were not saturated. Isn't that enough? Why is it necessary to then further punish users with additional reductions? Just use a fair queue algorithm like the Linux kernel's scheduler. It's not rocket science.

      It seems like you're saying Verizon won't mind losing my business because they make more per gigabyte off of you, but the fact stands that I incur very little cost to their business, s

    4. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      Not at all, yet, but I may have to if Verizon keeps pulling bait and switch tactics on its users every few years.

      I should've let them rot with AT&T, who has been leading Verizon by the hand down the road of anti-consumer practices, with Verizon following their lead after 6 months or so. Oh, wait...

      Maybe I should've let them get throttled with Sprint, after using -- what is it, 2 or 5 GB? -- on their "unlimited" plan. Oh, wait...

      Or maybe I should've let them get no service at all with T-Mobile, which serves approximately 3 square inches of land with their vast LTE network. Oh, wait...

      Crap, out of options.

    5. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      $70-150 g of cellular data probably cost them between $350-$1200 / month to provide. They will be thrilled to lose you as a customer. You are exactly the problem. You aren't paying for what you are using.

    6. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Your entire post is based on the fallacy that each bit I transmit costs them money. This is simply not true.

      Verizon's cost on cellular isn't the cost of data from the tower through the rest of the network. That costs something, but very little. The cost is buying, maintaining and upgrading the tower. If your tower is really that empty except for a few people like you, then they could rent out the bandwidth to a regional provider and just buy access for their own customers make revenue off that once you stop using so much of it. I doubt the situation is that one sided though, they didn't build that tower just for you.

    7. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      why would it cost them anything at all? The tower is already running, the backhaul is already laid, the proxies are already up, the air is just sitting there asking for 700mhz LTE to be passed through it.

      Only way it costs them is if there's someone else they can give that bandwidth to who will give them more money than you.

    8. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by jbolden · · Score: 1

      That's like saying stealing oranges from the grocery store isn't really theft because the tree, the farm, the delivery trucks, the warehouse and the rent on the store were already paid for. The stuff sold by the store, the oranges, are what pay for the tree, the farm, the warehouse ... That's where the money comes from.

      Pretend for a moment that Verizon retail and Verizon wholesale were two separate companies. Verizon retail acts like an MVNO and buys up chunks of minutes (prime, weekend, nights), SMS, data....

      Case 1: They then mark those minutes, SMS, and data up and sell them to you having you pay a fixed fee for each minute of phone, each SMS and each k of data. OK that's a fair system for everyone.

      Case 2: They notice that most of their customers enjoy thinking of their minutes, SMS... as "free" and like to relax on the network. So instead of of charging you for the minutes and SMS, k of data they just sell you a large block that's capped at below their cost that's more than you would use. You buy a bundle. If you actually use up the bundle they lose money on you as a customer that month. This is a bit more complex.

      Case 3: For the vast majority of customers the bundle limits are so much higher than their usage so the best way is to sell them unlimited on the cheap stuff: minutes and SMS while selling them bundles for the expensive stuff (k of data). This is basically Verizon's current plans.

      Case 4: There are some customers who managed to find a loophole where they have unlimited for the expensive stuff and pay for the cheap stuff. On those customers Verizon retail always loses money. That money comes from their other retail customers.

      _____

      That's pretty close though oversimplified to the reality of Verizon's internal ERP

    9. Re:I'm affected by this, and... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Just want you to know I was joking. You don't really sound like a cruel, cynical bastard.

      The telecom industry has been so heavily consolidated that it's not even close to competitive. You go elsewhere in the world and you find telecommunications services that far exceed ours in terms of quality, level of technology and value.

      I honestly wish the government would break up AT&T and Verizon into about a dozen separate companies. They did it before and it worked out. There needs to be a lot more competition in telecommunications. The only other option is to limit the scope of what they do. If you provide telecom services, for example, you cannot sell phones. Or content. The only other option is to make them so highly regulated that their eyeballs pop out and let loose some consumer protection agency on them to sit on their necks until they stop charging $40 just to upgrade to a new phone (not the cost of the new phone, not the cost of switching the sim card since that's done by the customer. I cannot figure out why there is a $40 "phone upgrade" charge.)

      I hate the phone companies. Really really.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  13. So we should pay $250,000 every February? by tlambert · · Score: 1

    I think $10/GB would be reasonable considering that they charge $30 for 3GB.

    I think $10/GB is ridiculous; in South Korea, you can buy 1Gbit/s for $20/month - which would take you about 10 seconds to hit $10.

    Given that there are 60 seconds in a minute, and 60 minutes in an hour, that's about $360/hour, or $8,460/day, or to put it another way, a quarter of a million dollars for February, and more than that for other months with more days in them.

    Tell me again why they are selling other people's packets as if they were metering water, as opposed to renting us pipes for those packets based on pipe diameter, and getting the hell out of the way otherwise?

    1. Re:So we should pay $250,000 every February? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Verizon is happy to sell you dedicated bandwidth for landlines that way. Business buy it for landlines, consumers don't. For cellular you want that kind of bandwidth build your own towers, connect them to a verizon access point and everything will be fine. Until you do that, you are on a shared resource which means your usage affects other people.

    2. Re:So we should pay $250,000 every February? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree your attempt to compare landline pricing with wireless pricing, but even if I did your math is off by a factor of 8 due to the difference between Mbs and MB.

    3. Re:So we should pay $250,000 every February? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Is this because you can't multiple 60 x 60 and get 3600, and then divide it by 10 to get 360, and don't understand that the factor 10 should be used instead of the factor 8 due to the way CSMA/CD transports encode 8 bits?

      Or are you just bad at math?

  14. Throttling My "Unlimited" 4G LTE Would Require... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Throttling my Verizon "Unlimited" 4G LTE would require that I am on a 4G LTE connection. I do a large amount steaming while at work. I work just outside a city of 30k and get a 4G connection about 1% of the time. So most of this usage is a 3G connection:

    Jan 2014 3.7GB
    Feb 2014 4.8GB
    Mar 2014 4.1GB
    Apr 2014 5.5GB
    May 2014 4.8GB
    Jun 2014 3.6GB
    Jul 2014 3.8GB

  15. 4,7GB/month by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    what is this ? An internet plan for ants ?

    One fapping session requires at least that amount of bandwidth, and normal human beings do this at least once a day.

    So an unlimited plan would have to provide at least 150GB traffic per month only for the porn.

    And then you didn't even start working or watching regular kitten videos on youtube.

    Unlimited starts at 3,3TB/month for me, or a 95pctile 10Mbps :o

  16. throttling by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    I believe throttling is an appropriate response to this situation, so if you see any Verizon corporate officers, please let me know.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  17. cell phone data is expensive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cell phone networks cost lots of money. Advancing technology has lowered the cost per bit enough to make full blown internet via cell phone somewhat affordable in the first place. Cell phone internet used to be severely constrained.

    Voice data is about several kilobytes a second, so 3 gigabytes could be considered half a million seconds, or about 8,000 minutes of voice. The incremental cost of adding extra voice subscribers is low, so with $100, 4 gigabyte plans, I think it is us voice only customers are the ones getting screwed on price.

  18. Lots of Hoops??? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Yes there are a few preliminary requirements but they are all pretty common.
    First off you must have been with Verizon for a few years, great customer loyalty you have got there Verizon...
    Secondly you have to have used over 5 gigabytes that month. That is something you can do in about 5 hours, anyone who has even heard of throttling used that or many times that per week...
    The last one I know nothing about, but apparently Verizon has enough trouble with infrastructure that they are deploying throttling schemes to get around upgrading their stuff so being connected to one under heavy demand must happen often enough.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Lots of Hoops??? by EvilJoker · · Score: 1

      While there are situations where infrastructure really can't scale with needs (e.g. crowded stadium, or a large event), I'm sure their claim that it won't affect very many people is bullshit. I'm sure, because this is a non-trivial change to make, and they wouldn't be doing it if wouldn't affect anyone.

      My (and everyone else's) faith in VZW makes me think this is merely another attempt to kill unlimited data.

      On a related note, last week, I was at a crowded stadium, and I made sure to torrent 4.1GB. I didn't need to, but if VZW wants to make unlimited such a pain, I'm going to make sure I use it to its fullest.

  19. Won't affect the majority of customers by ljw1004 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    At first I read about Verizon throttling their "unlimited data plan" customers and I got concerned.

    But then I read that the throttling will NOT affect the majority of customers who are paying over the odds for an unlimited data plan that they don't actually need. That's good. So long as they're not affected, things are okay. Please go ahead with your plans, Verizon!

    1. Re:Won't affect the majority of customers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Right. They are only throttling the people who are on the correct plan.

    2. Re:Won't affect the majority of customers by IanBal · · Score: 1

      It's the tip of the iceberg, the thin wedge that allows them to start down this customer hostile road. Soon that 5% will be 6, then 8, then 10, then 25, then ??? Verizon seems unable to fulfill their contractual requirements to customers, so they have sold something they don't have. I hope the throttled customers sue!

  20. Verizon Unlimited works like this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Calculate 95th percentile throttle everyone above it, Recalculate new top 5%.
    Rinse. Repeat... Until they've washed all your money and bandwidth away...

  21. BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They could at least be straight with people and stop screwing customers... This is just another part of the ongoing bandwidth problem propaganda major ISP and Cell carriers alike have been pushing. They're trying to condition us to think bandwidth is getting more costly when in fact it's been getting cheaper and cheaper and will continue to do so.

    This is about one thing, and we all know what that is.

    1. Re: BS by dfeifer · · Score: 1

      Keeping thier investors happy. Consumer be damned the investor is all that matters.

  22. using too much 4g data? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    stop watching cat videos on Youtube. Just kidding. :p

  23. Priority by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    I understand this is just about priority: once you reach a threshold, your traffic has lower priority than others. It seems a reasonable way of implementing unlimited plan on finite network capacity.

  24. File an FCC complaint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    File a complaint for fraudulent/deceptive advertising here: http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

    T-mobile does the same thing; I had an "unlimited" data plan and was throttled to below two kilobytes per second regardless of destination/source IP (far below even GPRS speeds) after just four hours of 275kB/sec SSH/SFTP traffic. They sell a plan as "unlimited" because it brings in customers, knowing full well that they intend to place limits on the connection. We apparently live in a world where "first 5GB at up to 4G speeds" means "use it for more than four hours and we'll make it unusable for the rest of the month".

  25. We are the 95% percent! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't worry, you're not in the top 5%, so it won't affect you! You should probably hate those guys anyway. Stupid 5 percenters! They probably kick puppies!

    Throttling based on 'the top X users' will ALWAYS be unjust. Just like there will always be a 'poorest 20%' even if every man, woman, and child is making $1 million per year.

    Look, if you want to provide an Unlimited Plan. Offer an Unlimited Plan. Or don't. Do NOT advertise and charge for one thing and supply another.

  26. I must be missing something. by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 1

    I could have sworn that part of the deal Verizon negotiated when buying the 700Mhz spectrum was that they would not be allowed to interfere with LTE data transfers of unlimited customers when connected via 700Mhz LTE. What happened to that?

    I can't wait to be done with Verizon. If a corporation could be diagnosed as insane, Verizon would be locked up. They're flaunting their new XLTE service, bragging about how fast you can move data then smacking down the small percentage of customers who are in a position to make use of that speed. I recently was in an area where I got 80/44 Mb/s but what good does that do anyone who has a data cap? That's psychotic to keep ramping up the speed and lowering caps.

    I'm doing a bit of international travel this month and, when I tried to turn on global data, I couldn't do it thru he website unless I picked a "valid" domestic data plan and a "valid" domestic text plan. I had to contact customer service to get global data turned on and I'm sure I'll have to contact them again to turn it off. When I get back, I'm going to be resuming a long stretch of domestic travel and hotel/resort WiFi universally sucks sweaty donkey balls. I've been travelling around the US for nearly a year and I've stayed in less than half a dozen places that had usable internet. Most places have been less than half a meg down and even slower the other way. Barely able to load a frickin' web page. I've had several months during this trip where I've moved well over a hundred gigs thru my phone via tethering and I don't feel a bit bad about it. I've been paying them around $125/month for nearly 5 years and, for the first two years, I moved less than 10 gigs a month. For the second two years, I hung onto my unlimited plan in anticipation of needing it for this trip and moved less than a hundred megs during many of those billing cycles. Put up with the shittiest service in the area to keep that plan. Had to go outside to make and answer calls.

    It was worth every penny of those 2 years to have the plan when I needed it but Verizon's sure not keeping my loyalty with this kind of crap. I was considering keeping it as a backup, continuing to pay $125/month as "internet insurance" once I stop travelling and settle down but I guess there's no point. I guess I'll just switch to whoever has decent local coverage at the lowest price.

    1. Re:I must be missing something. by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      I can't wait to be done with Verizon.

      well, it's a good thing you have so many choices of other corporations running nationwide cellular networks that want you dumping your cable internet connection in favor of wireless spectrum coverage.

  27. Can't sue your wireless carrier via class action by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.cnet.com/news/why-you-cant-sue-your-wireless-carrier-in-a-class-action/

    When AT&T slowed down Matt Spaccarelli's unlimited data plan on his iPhone, the unemployed truck driver from Simi Valley, Calif. took the country's largest phone company to court. And as a surprise to all, he won.
    Declan McCullagh/CNET

    But Spaccarelli's victory rings hollow. In fact, the route he was forced to take -- suing AT&T by himself as opposed to employing a more influential and wider ranging class-action lawsuit -- illustrates just how difficult it is to change a carrier's business practice through legal means. Rather than big changes and a return of his unlimited high-speed access, he ended up with $850 and a lot of disappointment.

    Spaccarelli sued AT&T because, as he argued, AT&T had stopped offering him an unlimited data service . Instead, he said the company was slowing down his service when he used 1.5 GB to 2GB of data in a given month. Spaccarelli's service was "throttled" as a result of a new AT&T policy designed to curb heavy data usage by its unlimited subscribers.

    But thanks to a Supreme Court decision in 2011, which upheld a company's right to include a clause in contracts prohibiting subscribers from suing the company as part of a class action, Spaccarelli had only two options when fighting AT&T's new policy: He could enter into an AT&T-funded arbitration program or file his suit in small claims court. Spaccarelli opted for small claims court.

    What this meant for AT&T was that instead of facing a multimillion dollar lawsuit, which represented thousands of disgruntled subscribers, the company only had to deal with a single subscriber and damages of $850. Even though AT&T lost its case and paid Spaccarelli the court-awarded damages, the company was not forced to change its throttling policy. And in fact, it still slows down service on what it considers its heaviest data customers, even though AT&T still calls the plan "unlimited."

    So yeah... Verizon and other goons have customers by the balls.

  28. Richest 5% shouldn't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    be forced to share?

    We can hire politicians to loot others' paychecks, but bandwidth is sacred?

  29. Not in my back yard by tepples · · Score: 1

    How does one go about adding towers with the "NIMBY" mentality in parts of the USA?

    1. Re:Not in my back yard by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      The smaller the tower, the easier it is to hide it. The regulatory hurdles you must clear are proportional to the output power of the cell tower. So making them smaller and lower power means it's easier to install.

  30. too late at the first sentence by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Find the towers that sometimes saturate and then ...

    Too late. TFA is about what happens while the tower is saturated, how they divide the available bandwidth between the customers WHEN IT'S SATURATED. Once that has already occurred, it's too late to go back and do analysis and not do what they are doing. They do in fact add towers as you suggest, but this story is about what happens when the tower first becomes overloaded. The overload has to be handled somehow immediately, while it's occurring.

    1. Re:too late at the first sentence by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Oh, come n ow. They just have to use their time machine.

  31. This is about wireless phones by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Your gigabit network is nice and all, but this conversation is about phones.

    1. Re:This is about wireless phones by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Your gigabit network is nice and all, but this conversation is about phones.

      The only imitation on phone is data rate.

      Bandwidth is trivially addressed by cell density. NTT happily addressed this in Japan Circa 1998 or so by increasing cell density. For each increase in cell density, the radius containing devices an existing cell has to service is reduced. For something lice a femto-cell, or business femto cells, such as those on they ceilings of the conference rooms, offices, and hallways at Google and Apple, the effective load for a given cell is a couple of devices each, at most.

  32. 1,000 of you is expensive by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Your entire post is basically repeating the same failure of logic over and over.
    They don't put up a new tower for one customer, true. However, 1,000 customers like you mean that 10 more towers hit capacity and ten more need to be added. Verizon isn't making decisions one customer at a time. If they lost a many of their 150 GB / month customers, they could provide better service for a lot more 15GB / month customers and make a lot more money. That would be a good thing for them.

    1. Re: 1,000 of you is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they'll reduce the price for all of us remaining due to this greatly increased efficiency per tower? We all know that will never happen.
      You have near nothing to gain by being a corporate apologist unless you're on their payroll. So why are you defending verizon's behavior?

    2. Re:1,000 of you is expensive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, I hear enough of that "sales guy" logic every day trying to explain why everything is really free, it is nice to see someone can still think.

    3. Re:1,000 of you is expensive by allquixotic · · Score: 1

      So, your "logic" is that it costs them less per customer if people would just use less data? That is basically a tautology; it is neither surprising nor meaningful.

      The fact is, data usage is trending upwards at a fast pace, as well it should. I use 75 - 150 GB per month on 100% legal, above-board purposes, without wasting any of that data on frivolous "re-downloads" or anything of the sort (I only download games once through Steam, then copy them on the LAN to my other devices; other people aren't so responsible). The vast majority of that data is tied to financial transactions where I have paid (either through advertising, subscription, or direct per-content payments) for the delivery of the data.

      The problem with the current situation is:

      1. It doesn't cost them nearly as much as they're charging on a per-GB level on the limited plans for the transfer of the data, AFTER you subtract out their up-front costs;
      2. I guarantee you (I will bet you any amount of money) that AFTER they have already run the service long enough to get their return on up-front costs *AND THEN SOME*, they will not lower prices at all; if anything, they will continue to INCREASE prices;
      3. They are using public funding -- my tax payer dollars -- to help fund their up-front costs, and then double-charging me as a paying customer by paying for their up-front costs as part of the charge of the per-GB that flows through their network.

      It would be like me paying $20,000 for a car -- up-front -- and then paying an additional $20,000 amortized over 5-6 years in added costs to the price of gasoline, and then continuing to pay at that rate long after I've paid off my car two, three, four times.

      Except the car market doesn't work that way, because Chevy doesn't sell me my gas.

      I'm fine with Verizon making a profit; I'm even fine with them making large ROI on their LTE towers. But do they *really* need to continue to bill people *as if* they are outlaying expenditures at an incredibly high rate, when in fact they are planning to rest on their laurels and soak up the profits long after they've made ROI?

      My last beef with your post is that you spent half your post describing how Verizon could make a lot more money and how it would be good for THEM. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't give a flying fuck what's good for Verizon. I have absolutely no self-interested reason to value the self-interest of a large corporation that is extremely profitable already.

      The self-interest tug of war between corporations and consumers is always ongoing, with one side making headway and the other losing out, and back and forth. Right now Verizon has pulled on their side so hard that consumers have fallen in the mud pit, and they continue to drag us along the muddy ground to celebrate their victory. The combined forces of regulatory capture, anti-competitive business practices, industry collusion, monopoly/duopoly, vendor lock-in, and price gouging, have made the wireless industry way more "valuable" (in terms of profit margins and raw revenue) than it should be. Having an uber-valuable corporation sounds mighty enticing to the capitalists here, but you have to remember that they are doing this at the consumer's expense. It doesn't HAVE to be this way. If you think it does, you are drinking their kool-aid. They've got you hook, line and sinker.

  33. 1,050 people for a 1,000 person tower by raymorris · · Score: 2

    Here's what you're missing. The article is about what happens when a tower hits maximum capacity for a moment.
    Suppose the hardware on the tower is capable of serving 1,000 people per second*. There are 1,050 people who want to download this second. Sorry, 50 people are going to have to wait one second. The tower can only handle 1,000. That's just a fact. They aren't "messing with" anything, that's just what the hardware is capable of.

    What Verizon has decided is that when there is an overload and somebody will have to wait a second, it'll be the heaviest users who have to wait. After all, they've already used "more than their fair share".

    * it's actually how many packets and bytes the tower can serve per second / millisecond, not customer count. The person who uses a lot will wait milliseconds.

    1. Re:1,050 people for a 1,000 person tower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they have no "fair share". Their "fair share", aka "what they are paying for" is "unlimited". This means UNLIMITED as in, no upper limit.

      What would be fair was to see everyone's speed decrease at the same rate to service the number of customers/bytes/whatever that the tower CAN handle. That would be totally fair because, after all, you and I both paid for our GB, you just have a limit and I don't. I see no reason for you to get priority over me because you're not on an unlimited plan. You paid for your GB just like I paid for mine. Your limited 1GB plan should NOT entitle you to "better" service during that 1GB than mine just because I have a much higher limit (effectively as much as I feel like).

      Notice the fine point that only unlimited plans are stuck with this. If you are one of those people that pay per-GB for data they'll give you full speed all day long regardless of the 4.7GB "limit". Why? Because you pad their profit margins. It doesn't cost them $10 to send 1GB of traffic, so they pocket the money as nearly 100% profit. They probably couldn't print money and have that kind of profit margin!

      Add to that, if you are truly going to argue that it will adjust with technology, then I expect that number to double at a regular rate. I can guarantee you that in 2 years that 4.7GB limit won't be 10GB. So think about what you are saying and then tell me that Verizon is really going to sit here and increase that limit at a rate that technology advances. I sure as hell don't expect them to, and their behavior with this situation is a perfect example!

      And before you argue with me about this, I actually gave up my unlimited plan last month. But I will still defend those people that Verizon considers to be "getting a free lunch" because it wasn't free. Verizon made a committment and they should be expected to fulfill that committment to the bitter end. If that is unpalatable to Verizon Wireless then they can go fuck themselves. They choose what services they offer, and if they bit off more than they can chew they have nobody to blame but the analysts that thought that "unlimited" was a great idea.

    2. Re:1,050 people for a 1,000 person tower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because adding capacity is just too hard. It's much easier to break agreements.

    3. Re:1,050 people for a 1,000 person tower by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

      at the rate we're going we'll need completely redistricted wireless spectrum and we'll need to upgrade the EM spectrum itself to be able to handle more bandwidth within a given bandwidth

    4. Re:1,050 people for a 1,000 person tower by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

      What would be fair would be everyone accessing that tower fairly sharing its capacity without regard to what a user did last week. Your notion of fairness is like someone standing in line at McDonalds being asked to move to the back of the line because they already bought a dozen hamburgers last week and McDonalds is really busy right now. Please, drop the notion of "fair" and "heavy user". This has nothing to do with that and everything to do with Verizon actively attempting to punish people who are NOT heavy users but simply at the top end of the scale, which always exists, in order for Verizon to continue to advertise a product, 4G LTE, that they can't adequately provide the bandwidth they advertise (mega bits/sec when on average they only want to deliver single digit kbps). We don't let car manufacturers advertise MPG based on coasting downhill with a wind at your back but we allow bandwidth providers to advertise instantaneous bandwidth that they only permit you to download at that rate for less than an hour a month.

  34. 1 or 1 million by eth1 · · Score: 1

    It sounds like they're only doing this when the network is congested in a specific location. Like they're basically prioritizing slowing down the heavy users when things get busy, rather than everyone. I have a much harder time getting worked up about that, especially when they're waiting until people are out of contract and can easily switch carriers.

  35. 4-5GB high usage???? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So funny that 4-5GB is considered high usage.
    Here In Singapore i chew 15GB a month on average over LTE, hell i stream 1080p movies from my home gig-e connection over Plex.
    My plan is 10gb, but with a value add 5gb. With a few discounts and promo offers I pay around $100 USD a month including my calls.
    How come America's data rates are so crap, and the limits so small? I always thought USA had high quality internet, you guys are way way way behind the rest of the world.

    Then again if you want to see real high speed mobile internet, go live in Korea, they knock even Singapore out of the water.

  36. Throttling to 0. by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

    I've had a VzW unlimited plan for years and was running it thru a proxy. When I downloaded 80G last month ("but it's just a tiny little wafer thin mint"), the proxy link magically won't resolve anymore. But it will on other links, of course.

    So this month I plan to download *all* of my stored music from Amazon and Audible.

    I was also going to grab the latest Fedora/Debian ISOs from my landline, but now I'll think I'll download more of them via unencrypted and unproxied torrents direct on the phone. This way can see _exactly_ what I'm doing. (Not that it matters, of course.)

    It's a bit more of a hassle than downloading straight to the computer, but it's worth it. They *can't* turn off the spigot on the far end, they'll have to do it on my end. Besides, it'll give my old friends at VzW some work so maybe they can keep THEIR jobs longer.

    Really though, I don't blame them. If a towers overloaded, throttle/delay the heavy users and give someone else a chance *FOR THE DURATION OF THE OVERLOAD*. The problem comes when EVERY tower becomes overloaded.

    --
    If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
  37. Throttling = limited data plan by aepervius · · Score: 1

    It does not matter how high and how unreachable you set your throttling. If there is a throttling it is not an unlimited data plan but a data plan with a CAP.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  38. There are always going to be users in the top 5% by naughtynaughty · · Score: 1

    Verizon and other providers like to pretend that such users are somehow abusing the system or otherwise getting more than their "fair share". Is that really the case? What is 4.7Gbytes of data monthly? It's about 100 kbytes a minute or about 1600 bytes per sec continuously. That's much slower than age old modem technology was capable of, not at all an excessive amount of data. Compare that rate with the data rates Verizon advertises for its 4G LTE plans, in excess of 2Mbyte/sec. So on an average basis they deliver less than 1/1000th of their advertised bandwidth on a continuous basis and Verizon wants to throttle. Or, to put it another way, they advertise speeds of 2Mbytes/sec but if you actually use that speed you'll be capped after 39 minutes. Being able to use up your entire monthly cap in 39 minutes is absurd, even if Verizon is clearly noting the cap in its contracts and advertising. Imagine what would happen if operators had to advertise allowed usage per sec instead of instantaneous data rates. Verizon gets to advertise blazing fast 4G LTE service under Plan A that gives you 16 kbps. Now that would be truth in advertising and give providers an incentive to both raise caps and increase capacity.

  39. A considerable majority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Holocaust didn't affect a considerable majority of Europeans either.

  40. In the long run, yes. Why I don't host spammers. by raymorris · · Score: 1

    In the long run, yes decreased cost results in decreased prices TO THE EXTENT THAT COMPETITION IS ALLOWED.
    If, say Cricket wireless can provide the same service at half the cost, they'll charge less in order to get market share. On the macro level, it puts downward pressure on prices.

    Here's a concrete example for you. In the web hosting business, like many others, 20% of the customers result in 80% of the cost. Most customers never require much attention, the servers just run, the bill goes out, and their credit card is charged. A few customers run opt-in mailing lists, and while those are legitimate, they cause some spam complaints that needed to be handled, they need DKIM set up, etc. Other customers feel they need to install a new script every week, so they need a lot of support, and since they do everything ad-hoc rather than settling into a pattern they miss paying their bull sometimes and you have to call them a couple of times to get them to pay. Many years ago, I started a very small invitation-only web hosting service. We only hostprofessional webmasters who know what they are doing, so they don't bug support with stupid questions. Their invoice is billed to their business credit card every month. I have customers I haven't heard from in years. Because of this, our costs are low, and so are our prices. We can provide excellent service at an excellent price because we're not spending our time and money dealing with spam and DMCA complaints, or chasing down past-due accounts. Our costs are low, therefore our prices are low.

    * no, we won't host your site. Not unless we know you, or people we know vouch for you. We don't want new customers unless we know those new customers won't bring DMCA, spam, billing, or support problems.

  41. Porsche max speed 150 MPH. Should cap GB by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > We don't let car manufacturers advertise MPG

    I understand the sentiment. Phone companies sometimes act like jerks. In this case, they are lying by using the word "unlimited". Data transfer is ALWAYS limited,on any media.

    Mbps is a measure of speed, though. Technically, looking at how very large networks work, "up to 30 Mbps" is more like saying a Porsche can go "up to 150 MPH".

    It's important information for consumers, too. I want to know how quickly my cat video will load - will I have to wait while it buffers? That's actually a completely separate measurement from how many cat videos I can download in a month. Unless of course you assume I'm downloading videos 24/7. I buy bandwidth that way - 24 / 7 dedicated bandwidth. It's VERY A expensive that way because you're not sharing the cost since you're not sharing the bandwidth.

  42. Fallout of stupid pricing plans by diekhans · · Score: 1

    This stems from pricing plans that are designed to brain wash consumer into thinking they are getting great deals because of words like `unlimited' and `free'. In reality, cell service is overpriced and the consumer has little power because of limited competition offering they same kind of plans. Pay for one uses. Works for electricity, works for water. Power companies don't have family plans or double you bill with you go one watt over your limit.

    1. Re:Fallout of stupid pricing plans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pay for one uses.

      Horrors! The next thing you know you will be advocating that everyone pays their fair share for their use of Mom's basement. What will the world come to?

    2. Re:Fallout of stupid pricing plans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Power companies don't have family plans or double you bill with you go one watt over your limit.

      Some power companies will start charging you are a higher rate per kwh for your next watt if you use more than some number. Just like the progressive income tax rates. So, it can get expensive to run a large agricultural activity in your basement with the progressive power and water billing practices of many water/power companies.

  43. Unlimited Data w/ Throttling is contradictory by soc.frangis · · Score: 1

    I have an analogy, which please provide your feedback on how I see this, it may help me not be so upset with Verizon. Suppose you rent a car from AVIS and pay $40 / day for unlimited mileage. You get on the road and find out that the car is stuck in first gear, set by AVIS. Just to make the numbers round, lets say then your top speed is 20 mph. The average person renting a car probably wont drive more than 5 hours in a day, so your max distance is 100 miles. Wouldn't it seem contradictory to say you get unlimited mileage when it fact your are limited to 100 miles a day? The overall mileage you can achieve is a formula: Distance = Rate * Time. If you limit the rate, then you limit the distance. I dont see how this analogy isnt applicable to data usage. You cant say data is "unlimited" if you limit one of the two key variables; Data Usage = Bandwidth date * time. I currently get about 45 Mbs on my 4G LTE. If i were limited to a rate of 4.5 Mbs, you essentially capped my data by throttle making the overall data usage limited. Overall, i dont believe something can be unlimited unless the variables which define it are also unlimited.

    1. Re:Unlimited Data w/ Throttling is contradictory by soc.frangis · · Score: 1

      Forgot to add, the whole reason unlimited data started on Verizon was their attempt to get people to use their service. I left ATT and joined them because of that incentive, unlimited 4G LTE. They should hold up their end of the deal until which time 5G comes out. Then they can learn from their mistakes and offer a different kind of incentive at that point. Why should the customer get punished when Verizon offered a very lucrative unlimited service to get me there. Bait and switch?

  44. not MY notion, but yes restaurants de-prioritize r by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Your notion of fairness is like someone standing in line at McDonalds being asked to move to the back of the line because they already bought a dozen hamburgers last week and McDonalds is really busy right now.

    FYI, I'm not Verizon. I didn't make this policy. I only explained it.
    Interestingly, sit-down restaurants actually DO de-prioritize regulars when they get too busy. Customers who are not regulars (yet) get priority.

    > Please, drop the notion of "fair" and "heavy user".

    Considering that this story is about the company giving lower priority to heavy users in order to be fair to customers who don't demand as much, it would be pretty tough to have any meaningful discussion about it without discussing the major concepts involved.

  45. Re:In the long run, yes. Why I don't host spammers by allquixotic · · Score: 1

    Your example assumes (incorrectly) two things which are untrue of the wireless industry, and there is absolutely no sign that it will ever change:

    1. In order for your example to apply to the wireless industry, the wireless industry would have to NOT collude on policies and prices between vendors. If you think there is no collusion going on, you only have to look at the changes in policy and price that have happened over the past 5 years between AT&T and Verizon, and between T-Mo and Sprint. One vendor moves; the other quietly follows 3-6 months later so as not to look suspicious. Vendor collusion is real and it's a serious hamper on competition. In general, the moves being made are all anti-consumer, and rather than differentiate as a statement of "hey, we're not evil like them!", the carriers instead opt to reduce their service quality *down* to their competitor's new standard. The bar keeps lowering, not raising. It's the exact polar opposite of the downward pressure you describe.

    For instance, compare: AT&T stops unlimited plans; then Verizon stops unlimited plans. AT&T disallows tethering on unlimited; then Verizon disallows tethering on unlimited. AT&T throttles; then Verizon throttles. Even within the limited data landscape, the only thing remotely reasonable that has happened in the last decade is that the price per GB when paid upfront has dropped from about $10 per GB to about $7.5 per GB, on average. That's not a large decrease. And overages have gone UP from $10/GB to $15/GB. Surcharges and other miscellaneous "fees" have also climbed in both number and amount, while the ToSes continue to become more and more hand-wavey about stating exactly what amount of your personal data they are going to keep private, and what they're going to sell to advertisers to make a quick buck.

    2. In order for your example to apply to the wireless industry, the wireless industry would have to have actual competition. As it stands, even the carriers that advertise unlimited come with deal-breaking provisos on their plans (such as throttling and tethering restrictions), making them no better than the ones that outwardly advertise limits. The two big carriers -- Verizon and AT&T -- have similar network buildouts and availability; it's just that some areas are better served by one carrier than the other. Prices are similar; the available phones and tablets are similar; tower density is similar; and so on.

    The hosting industry has TONS of competition, as I am well aware. In my opinion it is a shining example of a tech industry that has reached that sweet spot where the free, unregulated market truly and honestly works for it, and no regulation is needed, because there are so many different firms offering different competitive advantages that you can browse the internet for a whole week and still not decide on a hosting provider, because there are so many differences between them. Which version of PHP do they run? Do they limit the amount of traffic? Do they cater only to hosting professionals (like your company)? Do they offer rack hosting, cloud hosting, VPSes, dedicated servers, lease-to-own, shared hosting, pay-as-you-go cloud (AWS), cloud-based storage, colocation....? Not to mention there are so many different geographic areas to pick from, and each one has its own smattering of Tier1 ISPs available for the backhaul, all of them offering insanely low prices (I've seen unmetered 100 Mbps on servers priced at $100 - $200 per month now, which was unheard of 5 years ago).

    You're basically comparing THE IDEAL technology-related industry that fits like a glove with the unregulated free market approach, to the antithesis of that in the wireless industry.

    Imagine if the hosting industry consisted of 95% of people paying $7000/month for a Core 2 Quad in a Softlayer datacenter; and if you didn't go with Softlayer, your other choice would be to pay $7000/month for a Core 2 Quad with slightly different clock speed in a Rackspace datacenter. Imagine if those were your only two choices,

  46. You seem to think I like Verizon by raymorris · · Score: 1

    Basically, your post boils down to "Verizon is bad" and "taxpayer subsidies to Verizon are bad".
    I agree on both points. I didn't say Verizon is good. I said Verizon isn't scared of losing customers who use their cell phone as a hotspot to provide their home internet servIce and use 150 GB / month or more.

    I wouldn't use Verizon or any other contract carrier. Years ago I switched to an off-brand carrier with no contract. The no-contract carrier charged half as much as Verizon or Sprint, while using Sprint towers. So, fuck Verizon and Sprint. I pay $35 / for "unlimited" with LTE, which is a lot less than Sprint charged.

    Here's the weird thing - a few years ago, Sprint bought the no-contract carrier that was competing with them, Boost Mobile. Now, it's actually the same company, Sprint, providing the service for $35 under their Boost brand. When I left Sprint years ago, Sprint charged about $70 for a plan with a few hundred MB. Now, the same company sells me unlimited for half the price. That's what we call a price cut of over 50% that was caused by Boost competing with them. There's not enough competition in the industry, obviously. When there is competition, it cuts my bill in half.