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Bose Sues New Apple Acquisition Beats Over Patent Violations

Bose has taken issue with some of the technology embodied in products in Apple's newly acquired Beats line of headphones. As Ars Technica reports, Bose is suing Apple, claiming that the Beats products violate five Bose patents, covering noise cancellation and signal processing Although Bose never mentions Apple in the 22-page complaint, the acquisition price of the private company may have played a part in spurring Bose to sue. The suit doesn't include a specific damage demand. Bose has also filed a complaint with the US International Trade Commission against Beats over the same infringement claims. That means the patent lawsuit filed in federal court will be stayed while the ITC case gets resolved first.

100 of 162 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Only an ignorant troll would imply that Bose doesn't do original research. You're a troll.

  2. Re: Typical by shitzu · · Score: 1

    So - according to you - Beats create and Bose doesn't? What are you doing on slashdot?

  3. Re:Typical by arbiter1 · · Score: 1

    "Those who can't create, litigate" --- who does this remind you of over last 2-3 years? Funny to see Apple whine about plays outta their OWN playbook

  4. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Maybe, but as a guy who writes DSP software for a living, I took a look at that first patent and there's nothing original or creative about it that could possibly justify a patent -- and Bose must have known that when they filed it. I bet the USPTO clerk didn't have a fucking clue about DSP and was just impressed by fancy words. "Minimizing latency" my ass.

  5. Re:Typical by gnasher719 · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Those who can't create, litigate" --- who does this remind you of over last 2-3 years? Funny to see Apple whine about plays outta their OWN playbook

    A stupid post replying to an equally stupid post.

    I thought Google was the patent troll, trying to get four billion dollars from Microsoft for h.264 related software patents and ending up having to pay Microsoft's bills. And there is Samsung threatened with a 13 billion Euro fine if they don't stop patent trolling in Europe.

    In this case, Apple just has bought Beats, and has surely not done anything to infringe on Bose's patents. And from the description of these patents, they seem to be rather concrete and it should be not too difficult to find out if someone is infringing or not.

  6. Bose is worried by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Bose and Beats are both highly brand-focused. Bose targets the more mature quality-seeking crowd, while Beats targets the bass-hungry and fashion-conscious youth. There's some overlap, but generally I'd say their targets kept competition to a minimum, and they've pretty much cornered those targets

    Apple has the best of both worlds being viewed both as high quality and a status symbol. If they start using their monster marketing teams to align peoples' view of Beats with that of Apple, Bose stands a chance of being pushed out of the market by a frightening direct competition. They've got good reason to try to stall the acquisition as much as possible

    1. Re:Bose is worried by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They have a lot of work to do to convince people that Beats sound good.

      This patent seems to be specifically about noise cancelling, which is the one area Bose is actually good at. Their noise cancelling does seem to be slightly better than the competition, e.g. Sony and Audio Technica. Only slightly though.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Bose is worried by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as I can tell, Beats Pro are some of the best studio headphones money can buy at the moment. If they weren't so expensive I would probably own a pair.

      What are you, 19? Perhaps you should open both your eyes and ears and take a look at some companies who have been making cans for a LOT longer than a gansta rapper marketing to the ignorant.

      Companies like Sennheiser, Shure, and Grados Labs have proven that music does not begin and end with bass.

      And it doesn't surprise me that you think these sound good in the studio. The "studio" has managed to hyperbass and overprocess (excite) the living shit out of 99% of pop/rap music today, basically ruining it. Music "mastering" today is defined as turn up the bass and slap on some Autotune for this tone-deaf teeny bopper who can't sing for shit.

      A perfect home for Beats.

    3. Re:Bose is worried by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      > Bose targets the more mature ignorant quality-seeking crowd,

      FTFY.

      In what universe does Bose and quality even go together?!?!? They are a complete over-priced under-quality joke by many audiophiles. They are nowhere in the top ten at Hi-Fi http://www.head-fi.org/f/113/h...

      Senn cans are consistently top rated. I.e. http://www.head-fi.org/product...

      Maybe if Bose didn't sound like shit and actually listed* their technical specs such THR -- oh wait Bose relies on ignorance and marketing just like Beats.

      * Audioholics http://www.audioholics.com/edi...

      Bose Corporation takes its psychoacoustics outlook right down to its controversial methods of published specifications, in that it does not publish specs by standard measured electrical and objective acoustic performance.

    4. Re:Bose is worried by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Funny

      As far as I can tell, Beats Pro are some of the best studio headphones money can buy at the moment. If they weren't so expensive I would probably own a pair.

      What are you, 19? Perhaps you should open both your eyes and ears and take a look at some companies who have been making cans for a LOT longer than a gansta rapper marketing to the ignorant.

      He's walkin' - they be hatin'. The Beebs sounds fucking awesome in Beets Pro. And they are unquestionably the best headphones for listening to autotune.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    5. Re:Bose is worried by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 1

      Well, I never said Bose actually had quality, only that people perceive them as having it. I carefully worded it like that because while I agree with you, it was not the point I was trying to make. I'll stick to my Mad Dogs and DT880s.

    6. Re:Bose is worried by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      brand focused companies are brand focused because they charge too much for mediocre products. It takes effort to maintain smoke and mirrors and it's easy to blow them away with a few facts.

    7. Re:Bose is worried by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      So they sell at a 50% discount?

    8. Re:Bose is worried by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Bose and Beats are both highly brand-focused. Bose targets the more mature quality-seeking crowd, while Beats targets the bass-hungry and fashion-conscious youth. There's some overlap, but generally I'd say their targets kept competition to a minimum, and they've pretty much cornered those targets

      They're both over-EQ'd POS. Beats are for bass. while "no highs, no lows, must be Bose".

      The only thing is, the markets are different - Beats are for the young "trendy" kids who listen to nothing but bass-heavy music (typically called rap). You know, the kind who come down the road and you can hear them blocks away because the windows on the stores are rattling.

      Bose is more for the middle-aged family. You know, the kind where the wife generally runs things and she sees a traditional stereo or home theatre system with its big ungainly speakers and big black boxes, or she sees a Bose and it "sounds good enough" but damn it looks good.

      Of course, at least the Bose does sound better than the beats any day of the week. (Heck, I saw a Instructable a few years back turning a Bose headphone into a Beats one. Probably the best sounding Beats on the planet).

      Ironically, Beats probably do sound better than what Apple currently calls a headphone.

    9. Re:Bose is worried by Rakarra · · Score: 1

      > Bose targets the more mature ignorant quality-seeking crowd,

      Well. That's the crowd they target. The parent poster didn't say they offer great products, just that that's the group they want to go after. :-)

  7. Bose is suing Apple? by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 4, Funny

    Quick, Slashdotters - tell me who to hate!

    --
    #DeleteChrome
    1. Re:Bose is suing Apple? by greg1104 · · Score: 2

      The US Patent Office..

      It could be worse for Beats--they could have also violated Bose's highly innovative use of .2 in the model number.

    2. Re:Bose is suing Apple? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Quick, Slashdotters - tell me who to hate!

      Right about now, 93 Escort Wagon is pretty high on the list.....

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  8. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is bit dated, but still quite relevant, The Bose FAQ from archive.org as latest version seem to have disappeared few years back from net.

  9. If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by Chas · · Score: 4, Informative

    Bose: They have infringed on our patents for crappy sound reproduction!

    Beats/Apple: Crap! We got nothin'! We weren't expecting them to play the "blunt honesty" card!

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
    1. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by Dupple · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If there's no highs an lows, it's gotta be Bose...

      If there's no mids and tweets, it gotta be Beats!

      --
      Watch those corners
    2. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by bkmoore · · Score: 2

      So you're saying that if we combine a Bose and a Beats headset, we might actually get hi-fidelity sound?

    3. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      windows?

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    4. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2

      Either that or complete silence. You could use Depeche Mode to market these.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    5. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by danomac · · Score: 1

      Well, it'd be pretty funny to see someone wearing a 25 lb headset attached to an iPhone...

    6. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by Chas · · Score: 1

      No, we'd either wind up with cacaphony or pure silence.

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    7. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      Or no sound. It depends on which features get combined.

    8. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by Chas · · Score: 1

      B
      O
      O
      H
      O
      O

      --


      Chas - The one, the only.
      THANK GOD!!!
    9. Re:If there's no highs and no lows, gotta be Bose! by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that if we combine a Bose and a Beats headset, we might actually get hi-fidelity sound?

      No, you'd be missing the treble. Which is fine I suppose if you're over 40 or 50.

      They both don't have highs - "no highs, no lows, must be Bose" and "no mids, no tweets, must be Beats" (a tweeter reproduces high-frequency audio).

  10. Re:Obviously by JustOK · · Score: 1

    No, that's for a modular hip joint.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
  11. Re:Typical by Megol · · Score: 2

    Wow... So what have they created? Really, list anything they have done that either haven't been done before or not being well known.
    Sony have created more in the audio business and they aren't the no. 1 inventor by far...

    [Adding a lot of DSP effects and playing stuff at loud volumes isn't innovation BTW. Last I was shopping for headphones I thought that a Bose model looked interesting (albeit expensive) so I tried them in a in store test thingy... Which was interesting as even though there were good music playing and there were a volume control the lowest setting was far above my normal listening volume - I want to preserve my hearing to old age after all. It is well known that louder sounds like better quality so already there I knew that there were something strange going on.
    Retested the same headphones later in a better audio store and frankly they were no better than a pair of modded Koss Porta Pro. They cost >10x as much though.]

  12. Re:Typical by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    hmm.. bose.

    hmm.. beats.

    but what the fuck are the patents? it's not like beats has any innovation so what the fuck? is the patent on using a too big bass driver in combination with high frequency driver or what that fck? or patent on only using a low end driver?

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  13. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Bose specifically alleges that Beats infringed on five US patents: patent 6,717,537, titled “Method and Apparatus for Minimizing Latency in Digital Signal Processing Systems;” patent 8,073,150, a “Dynamically Configurable ANR Signal Processing Topology;” patent 8,073,151, a “Dynamically Configurable ANR Filter Block Technology;” patent 8,054,992, which specifies a method for high frequency compensating; and patent 8,345,888, which covers “Digital High Frequency Phase Compensation.”

  14. Patent is for use without music? by robbak · · Score: 3, Informative

    The thing that commenters over at Ars haven't picked up on - this patent is only infringed if the customer wears the headphones without playing music. Noise cancellation with added music - OK, there's prior art for that. Turn the music off - it becomes patentable technology.

    The claim states that Bose is on the hook because their documentation states that you can use the headphones without music for noise cancellation only, which induces their customers to infringe Bose's patents.

    How is that legit? How can not adding music create a patentable technology?

    --
    Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
    1. Re:Patent is for use without music? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The thing that commenters over at Ars haven't picked up on - this patent is only infringed if the customer wears the headphones without playing music. Noise cancellation with added music - OK, there's prior art for that. Turn the music off - it becomes patentable technology.

      The claim states that Bose is on the hook because their documentation states that you can use the headphones without music for noise cancellation only, which induces their customers to infringe Bose's patents.

      How is that legit? How can not adding music create a patentable technology?

      As a simple analysis, Bose created and patented the noise-cancelling headphone. They made it and marketed that rather directly as noise-cancelling headphones, initially and specifically designed to do one thing.

      Those who have flown commercially anytime in the last fifteen years could not have missed it in airports and skymall, where they marketed the crap out of it.

      Then someone comes along and adds bass boost and a headphone jack to that same exact product. While rather weak, I can easily see how this could be turned into a lawsuit in today's world. And primary or secondary functions (whether it be noise-cancelling or music) mean little here.

    2. Re:Patent is for use without music? by greg1104 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That doesn't have anything to do with the lawsuit. Bose's early patents on noise reduction had a fairly wide scope to them, trying to own the entire territory of reducing aircraft noise independently of the signal. They might even have been able to claim some sort of domain over anyone who plays headphones without music; I wasn't following patent silliness back then. But those products have been shipping since 1989, so any really fundamental patent in that area expired years ago.

      What Bose did then was either file or acquire a series of patents on the obvious ways to build digital circuits for such noise reduction. You can't build any digital noise reduction system without tripping over at least one of them. In the tech industry, there are all these "on a computer!" patents people like to complain about. In audio, their version of that tactic is to patent some math in the form of a "Digital Signal Processing System". The first one is really blatant in that regard. Basically anyone who builds a digital circuit with things like a FIR filter and applies it to audio noise reduction can expect a patent infringement. And Bose didn't even develop that one; they bought the patent specifically for the sort of extortion they're doing here, in the usual way Bose sues companies frivolously.

    3. Re:Patent is for use without music? by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

      As a simple analysis, Bose created and patented the noise-cancelling headphone. They made it and marketed that rather directly as noise-cancelling headphones, initially and specifically designed to do one thing..

      Not really, the concept had been around a while, and pilots had been using them long before the first pair of Bose QCs hit the market. Bose, while he did a lot of research into ANR, popularized them for use outside of the cockpit. IMHO Bose are way overpriced, you can get a set of Audio Technica, or a if you prefer an open ear design, Sennheisers that cancel noise quite well for half the price of the Bose . A Sennheiser BT for about the same price but with BT. Al of them also work as regular headphones when the battery dies, unlike the Bose QCs.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:Patent is for use without music? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Extortion? That's bogus, this suit must be legit.. why else would they have waited until just after Apple bought Beats?

  15. Re: Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Well. Apple did sue Microsoft for imitating their OS way back then.

  16. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Right. So name their innovations except for these things that I for some reason claim aren't innovations.

  17. bad vs bad by kuzb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Beats (and by extension, apple) is overpriced, overhyped shit. Bose is overpriced, overhyped shit. I sincerely hope they cost each other millions with this.

    --
    BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
    1. Re:bad vs bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So who does sell well priced headphones in your opinion?

    2. Re:bad vs bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fully agree. For the kind of money one could spend on a pair of bose or apple/beats headphones, you could own FAR superior ones by Shure, Audio Technica, Sony, Focal, Sennheiser and AKGs.

    3. Re:bad vs bad by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's just unfair, if your Bose(tm) and/or Beats(tm) headphones sound bad, you're probably just using cheap cables. They'll totally sound awesome if you make the necessary investment in Monster(tm) cables for them instead.

    4. Re:bad vs bad by strikethree · · Score: 3, Informative

      Beats (and by extension, apple) is overpriced, overhyped shit. Bose is overpriced, overhyped shit.

      I disagree. I have owned both sets of their "high end" noise cancelling headphones. Neither one is shit. Both are definitely over-hyped and overpriced, but they are not shit.

      When you claim something is shit, you are claiming that it does not do what it says it will do. Both pairs of headphones reproduce the sounds that were intended in a reliable manner. That is a measure of quality. Both pairs of headphones provide some level of consistent noise cancellation. That is a measure of quality.

      The Bose are better than the Beats at noise cancellation. The Beats are better than the Bose at convincing you that you are hearing bass, and slightly better at convincing you that you are hearing treble. Both are 3 times more expensive than a pair of Sennheiser (SP?) headphones that I have that reproduce sounds more like the original sound than the Bose or the Beats. Both pairs (Bose/Beats) sound like... I don't know: Cardboard? The only negative to the Sennheisers is that they do not do noise cancellation and they do not have batteries in them so they eat the battery of my phone. But play a FLAC file through them and OMG, they sound like sex compared to Bose or Beats.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    5. Re:bad vs bad by dkf · · Score: 1

      play a FLAC file through them and OMG, they sound like sex

      Your audio collection is... not like mine.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    6. Re:bad vs bad by McFly777 · · Score: 1

      play a FLAC file through them and OMG, they sound like sex

      Your audio collection is... not like mine.

      Perhaps he is saying that the headphones being described make everything sound like low moaning with a few high screams? Doesn't sound like they are very good to me. I prefer my music to sound like music.

      --

      McFly777
      - - -
      "What do people mean when they say the computer went down on them?" -Marilyn Pittman
  18. Re:Typical by kuzb · · Score: 2

    No, bose basically patented something that has been around for decades. They didn't create shit.

    --
    BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
  19. Re:Typical by msauve · · Score: 1

    A refutation would involve simply pointing to another case of and Apple patent lawsuit. You're just trolling.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  20. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 4, Informative

    I can see why you think Dr. Dre is such a brilliant technilogical innovator and all, what with the "Dr." in his fake name and all, but ... you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Dr. Bose (an actual Doctor, with an MIT Doctorate and everything!) is an innovator par excellence. If you go to their administration building at 100 The Mountain Rd. in Framingham Mass you will experience one of the coolest examples of his acoustic innovation. There is a very small word: BOSE set in stone on the floor. If you step on the B or E you will hear an audio reflection, and if you move ever so slightly over the the O and S it is 100% anechoic. All of this is done with zero electronics. Let's see you pull that off :-)

    Just accross the parking lot is the Bose Research Building, where every design must pass a rigorous Design Assurance Engineering process. They have anechoic chambers, speaker torture (long-term testing) rooms where they do up and down, left and right, circular, and random vibration testing, CAD rooms and all kinds of research tools and methods you can't even imagine (e.g. Salt Fog testing for their Marine products)

    In other words, you are about as far off base as a person can be on this one.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  21. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    There is a saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." You should heed it.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  22. Re:Typical by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    true, but im not sure admitting that beats ripped off bose is a good thing to do for the company. Beats are horrible when it comes to sound. admitting that they are using bose tech to me anyway would be like admitting bose isnt any good (thats a different discussion)

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  23. Re:Typical by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    you forgot about their patent that says only they can sue others for patent issues

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  24. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    No ... but since any patent acquired in the 70s has long since elapsed, it's literally impossible to sue over work done then.

  25. Re:Typical by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Dr. Bose (an actual Doctor, with an MIT Doctorate and everything!) is an innovator par excellence.

    Just accross the parking lot is the Bose Research Building, where every design must pass a rigorous Design Assurance Engineering process. They have anechoic chambers, speaker torture (long-term testing) rooms where they do up and down, left and right, circular, and random vibration testing, CAD rooms and all kinds of research tools and methods you can't even imagine (e.g. Salt Fog testing for their Marine products)

    And with all this concentrated wonderfulness, and Doctor Bose's (an actual Doctor) Godlike status, Bose speakers are still marginal - at best.

    You canna beat the laws of physics, laddie.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  26. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

    Yeah. OK Buddy. The funny thing is that you think Bose is a speaker company, thereby showing that you have no idea what Bose is or does.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  27. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Only two? What are you, simple, or just trolling?

    Here's another one just earlier this year:

  28. Re:Bose is more American by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

    You're missing the point.

    Bose is over priced crap. You can buy significantly better quality headphones for half the cost.

  29. Two questions by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

    A) Why didn't Bose sue Beats BEFORE Apple bought them? That makes this case sound much more about targeting a cash hoard than anything else.
    2) Why didn't Apple buy Bose? Aside from the obvious answer that Apple bought branding instead of technology, Bose surely must have something Apple would want. If not, then the Beats acquisition is only about image which doesn't make much sense given that Apple has been pretty good at creating their own image over the last 10+ years.

    1. Re:Two questions by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "Why didn't Apple buy Bose?"
      The day ain't over yet.

  30. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    Great point. Microprocessors have been around for decades. Shrinking them down and getting them into a phone is an obvious invention. I can't believe everyone wasn't doing it in the 70s!

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  31. Re:Typical by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To be fair, they are a speaker company, and they were started to be a speaker company. The fact that they do a bunch of other stuff doesn't really change that. I've had some of their speakers (601 Series II) and they just didn't sound good enough to justify the space they take up, although they actually could sound pretty good in a crappy room; up close they even sounded really crisp, whether they actually were or not. (The whole point was that they weren't, though.) You have got to be impressed by the way Bose can make a bunch of shitty drivers sound pretty decent for most kinds of music. Not impressed enough to buy them, but I got them for free. On that basis they were pretty fantastic.

    My A8 also has Bose sound, and it doesn't exactly bowl me over either. Besides the crackling volume knob and the failed tape deck, it just doesn't really sound that amazing. When you get it nice and loud, it kind of goes to pieces. Since it's an extra-fancy Bose head unit (for 1997, mind you) and the changer uses a unique protocol, the only thing I can really replace it with is the same exact thing. There are kits to do otherwise, but then you really need to get into complete speaker wiring replacement.

    Bose might do a lot more than this, and there might be a whole lot of solid engineering behind what they do, but pretty much everyone who doesn't know them for making undersized all-in-one systems with funky design (Bose "Wave", indeed, harrumph) knows them for making really expensive home speakers, or automotive audio systems which are often considerably expensive options which are (in terms of quality) inferior to getting the same sort of thing installed in the aftermarket.

    tl;dr: Bose is a speaker company which refuses to publish typical test data even after they collect it, as well as a company which does other things — most of which are closely related to speakers.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  32. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    Really. There is a roughly 2 foot by 6 inch spot in the Complexe Desjardins that is anechoic, while the rest is not? I didn't think so.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  33. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "To be fair, they are a speaker company"

    No. To be fair, there is no sense in reading the rest of your post. The very issue this thread is discussing has almost nothing to do with speakers - at least in the traditional sense, so to be fair, you are making a ridiculous claim in a context where any moron should recognize it as such. I read the rest of your post anyway, and you go on to openly admit they make radios, for exampe, so to be fair you don't even believe your own bullshit.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  34. Re:Typical by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    "To be fair, they are a speaker company"

    No. To be fair, there is no sense in reading the rest of your post. [...] I read the rest of your post anyway,

    I should probably rest my case here, since you just stuck a fork in yourself. But...

    and you go on to openly admit

    Out now!

    they make radios, for exampe

    Well, they also make them for car companies. And sadly, they are not very good, but more to the point here, those radios are designed specifically and explicitly to go with matched sets of their speakers. I should say that they're not very bad, either. I'd rather have a factory Bose than a factory Blaupunkt, for example. Faint praise, however, only serves to illustrate the point.

    so to be fair you don't even believe your own bullshit.

    If you can point to something I wrote and explain why it is bullshit, then do that. But you haven't managed that. Bose is first and foremost a speaker company. Their fancy suspension system so far cannot be made practically light and their radios go with and are always sold with their speakers. You might say that they are a speaker-and-truck seat company, though. Fancy!

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  35. Re:Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Thus sayeth the audiophile. A member of a crowd that says sloppy tubes are better (They "sound" better to many, but ARE they to everyone- and are they factually so?) and the like.

    Sorry, your observations are preference observations, not objective ones, and preference can differ from person to person- and you're stating them as facts and in a way that if someone doesn't agree, they're not worthy. Keep it to, "in my opinion," or, "in my not so humble opinion," and you'll be fine. If not, keep it to yourself. Seriously.

  36. Who Cares? by acoustix · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bose is an over-priced lifestyle product for the middle aged. Beats is an over-priced status symbol for teens. Both groups of people are unaware that products equal specs can be purchased for much less and that superior products can be purchased for the same price.

    --
    "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
  37. Re:Typical by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    Yeah. OK Buddy. The funny thing is that you think Bose is a speaker company, thereby showing that you have no idea what Bose is or does.

    Oh, awesome, smashing riposte. It's not like we were discussing Bose as related to their speakers as related to Beats, eh? Yeah - OK buddy.

    I really don't give a stinky rat's ass about the other things Bose does, I'm just here to talk about the shitty audio of Bose and the equally shitty audio of Beats.

    Which makes me think that Bose's best argument in this whole lawsuit is to demonstrate how both sound bad. If you want to have an argument about the other stuff Bose does, submit a story.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  38. Re:Typical by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

    "To be fair, they are a speaker company"

    No. To be fair, there is no sense in reading the rest of your post. The very issue this thread is discussing has almost nothing to do with speakers - at least in the traditional sense, so to be fair,

    In some faraway universe, you might make sense.

    Otherwise this thread is exactly about speakers and sound systems.

    If somehow some way, Bose makes an awesome mousetrap, or some kind of gastraphagus that makes enemies shit their pants, that's all very nice. But tell me how the other stuff they do is relevent to them suing Apple?

    You must have been a blast in debate class. Declaring the topic of the debate off topic.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  39. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    "Oh, awesome, smashing riposte. It's not like we were discussing Bose as related to their speakers as related to Beats, eh? "

    That is correct. It is not like we were discussing Bose as related to their speakers as related to Beats. The suit is about their active noise cancellation. Evidently you don't know what that means. This is, of course, in direct congruence to your cluelessness in everything you have written.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  40. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    You are an idiot. Go find out how active noise cancellation works, and then get back to us. When you can implement it using only speakers let us know, and by all means patent it. Until then you are just an idiot.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  41. Re:Typical by m00sh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe, but as a guy who writes DSP software for a living, I took a look at that first patent and there's nothing original or creative about it that could possibly justify a patent -- and Bose must have known that when they filed it. I bet the USPTO clerk didn't have a fucking clue about DSP and was just impressed by fancy words. "Minimizing latency" my ass.

    Modern patents are completely different than what people think patents are.

    They are not necessarily clever inventions or designs anymore. They are just a way of laying stake to a field or method of doing things.

    As an example, people think a better mouse trap would be what you'd file a patent for. No, actually, a company would file a patent for method of eliminating rodents. This would cover all forms of mouse traps that could ever be designed.

    A few years ago, I thought I could learn how things are done by reading patents in a hardware/software field. All the patents were overly general, without any useful information and filled with language that only lawyers would use. On the other hand, I couldn't really design anything without "violating" patents because all the patents were so general that it could covered most general ideas that could be used. In fact, before I had read the patents I had some designs and those designs violated patents.

  42. Re:Typical by m00sh · · Score: 1

    Just accross the parking lot is the Bose Research Building, where every design must pass a rigorous Design Assurance Engineering process. They have anechoic chambers, speaker torture (long-term testing) rooms where they do up and down, left and right, circular, and random vibration testing, CAD rooms and all kinds of research tools and methods you can't even imagine (e.g. Salt Fog testing for their Marine products)

    If you're so impressed by their research building, you should check out their advertising building. They are better funded and have more influence in making their products sound better.

  43. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    Yeah. They don't have an "advertising building". If you don't like Bose, that's fine, but don't spread misinformation. It makes you look like the moron you clearly are. And for the record, it isn't their building that is impressive. It is their process. I am not some guy who got a ten minute tour of their building. I worked in their DAE department. I can assure you that they have a very and uncharacteristically strong focus on quality.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  44. Re:Typical by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Thus sayeth the audiophile.

    My PC stereo system is a couple of Yamaha monitors whose model I don't know on a 40W Kenwood whose model I don't know (squinting... KA-305) and my "home theater" system is a Sony STR-DE635. I'm still using the original double-driver powered sub from the kit (it's pretty Bose-esque in its own way, actually) but I got out from under the other kit speakers with an assortment of yard sale scores. I forget who made my cheap center, maybe JBL. I have cambridge metal case in the rears, and the fronts are something british whose name I can't remember. My Headphones may be Sennheisers, but they're refoamed and reconnectorized HD420s I got for five bucks. I am a cheap bastard whose stereo systems are cobbled together from cheap crap, not an Audiophile. I bought the Sony new at Costco some ages ago, and on purpose. Hilariously, it's never let me down.

    your observations are preference observations

    Bose falls on its ass when it comes to non-objective measurements every time someone performs a test at their own expense. Bose refuses to publish the same numbers everyone else publishes for their speakers, claiming that those numbers are irrelevant. Whether they are correct is, I think, a whole other argument, but why not, here we go. Subjectively, I think Bose sounds pretty good, but I've heard other stuff that I found much more impressive. Objectively, Bose is inferior to much of the competition, some of which is cheaper. Personally, I'd rather have someone else's equipment, but I won't avoid buying a car because it has a Bose sound system. I just wouldn't pay thousands for the option.

    tl;dr: If you think Bose sounds good then feel free to buy, listen, insert rectally whatever, who gives a fuck? Music enjoyment is subjective anyway.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  45. Re:Typical by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    You'll note that it isn't the concept of microprocessors that is patented currently. It is the processes that allow them to shrink that are currently patented.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  46. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    So in your mind research and development takes zero time, then. Got it.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  47. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    You'll note that math has been around for thousands of years. It is the process of doing it with a computer that is recent. By your argument, there's nothing patentable about computers because they just do the same thing that has been done for thousands of years, but just a little differently.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  48. Re: Typical by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    No, that is not according to me. Try again.

  49. Re:Typical by epyT-R · · Score: 1

    Bose is long know for litigating everything, including valid criticisms of its products. You shouldn't feel sympathy for them. If beats really had violated any patents, it would've been sued ages ago. They're both garbage.

  50. Re:Typical by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    Why can a speaker company not also be a radio company?

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  51. Re: Typical by Type44Q · · Score: 3, Funny
    No highs, no lows; must be Bose. ;)

    Spoken as someone rocking a factory "Blose" system in a 2015 Suburban (don't ask...).

  52. Re: Typical by shitzu · · Score: 1

    You added a comment "Those who can't create, litigate." to an article about Bose suing Beats. In the context of the article, i read your comment - "Those who can't create (Bose), litigate".
    If this is not what you meant, could you explain what it IS that you meant?

  53. Re:Typical by arbiter1 · · Score: 1

    Look at scope of them, they tried to BAN ALL Samsung phones from the market for cheap ass software patents that were invalid but according to the jury in the 1 case "they didn't want to spend the time to invalidate them".

  54. Re:Typical by greg1104 · · Score: 1

    Bose didn't even file that patent--they bought it, presumably because they realized it was so general they could sue people all kinds of people when they felt like it. Bose: better sound through patent extortion!

  55. Re:Typical by greg1104 · · Score: 1

    Dr. Bose did a lot of groundbreaking research back in the day. And, yes, nobody wastes $100M in audio research the way Bose does.

    The problem is that none of that is reflected (heh heh) very well by their product line. You can't prove anything from a one-off sample in their office. The real key to home audio isn't cost no object performance; it's bang for the buck in real-world production. And it's there that Bose's products are sketchy, and the way they sue anyone who measures that fact should set off a warning light. All the money going into R&D is part of the problem--that's overhead that doesn't fund itself unless it's turned into product innovation. And it didn't in this particular case; the most fundamental patent in this lawsuit set is one Bose purchased , not developed. Not exactly a high point in Bose R&D history.

    I'd like to discuss the lack of innovation in Bose audio products in objective terms, but their very deep flaws prevent that from even being possible. They don't use the standard measurements for speakers everyone else in the industry does. Their theater products ignore the THX specifications everyone else adopted. That pattern is everywhere at Bose. You can either believe in the ancient Bose mythology of not measuring speakers, or you can agree that the concrete numbers every other audio researcher in the world uses are important. Read some papers by Dr. Floyd Toole if you want to find out about reflected sound from someone in the speaker manufacturing R&D business who moved past the 60's.

    Dr. Bose was a smart dude, but smarter than every other researcher put together? That's a very special breed of arrogance. I'll take the side of scientific consensus, thank you.

  56. Re:Typical by kwbauer · · Score: 1

    "they even sounded really crisp, whether they actually were or not." Hilarious. The "crispness" of a speaker is defined by how it sounds, unless you were eating it. But even then sound generally plays a role in that determination.

  57. Audiophiles never agree on anything, except... by ayesnymous · · Score: 1

    I browsed a few audiophile forums in the past, and it was funny because they NEVER agreed on anything... EXCEPT for one thing... they all agreed that Bose was the worst speaker company ever. A company that sold products based purely on marketing.

    1. Re:Audiophiles never agree on anything, except... by sabbede · · Score: 1
      Blose?

      I had an audiophile friend (yeah, weirdos) whose primary complaint with Bose was that they are overpriced for what you get. Bit like Apple if you ask me.

  58. Re:Typical by Rakarra · · Score: 2

    Bose does research. They do their work, probably more than "Beats" did. They deserve credit for that. Sure, Bose's products sound like shit up and down the product lines, and the old audiophile refrain was "got no highs, got no lows, must be Bose." Companies change over time, though, maybe in the last five years Bose improved the quality of their speakers, but there were not great in the 80s, 90s, 00s. But hey, at least they're a semi-reputable audio company.

    Beats was the headphone partner of Monster Cable for the last few years, which fits. Both are overpriced and overrated self-promoters. Monster tried to get their cables in to all the Best Buys and Radio Shacks it could, getting store managers to promote the products ceaselessly. They're not terrible cables, just 5x more expensive than they should be. Beats went the hip-hop artist crowd, just like Monster getting a clueless crowd to push their products incessantly. Both are examples of success through product promotion rather than... you know, having a better product.

  59. Re:Typical by Rakarra · · Score: 2

    So in your mind research and development takes zero time, then. Got it.

    You are absolutely correct with that, when it comes to patent enforcement, all that time spent earlier means, pretty much nothing.

  60. Re:Typical by Rakarra · · Score: 1

    Hey man, you don't need to be an audiophile to know that much of the rest of the speaker industry is better than Bose. We're not talking sloppy tubes or gold-plated ding-dongs or weird vinyl artifacts. These are observations from pretty much every industry or review magazine, observations that are easily objectively measured. If speakers are on the low end of accurate sound reproduction, there's really not that much preference about it.

  61. The Doctor knows what's up by sabbede · · Score: 1

    Dre sold it off just in time for a patent suit to come down the line. Luck or sneakiness?

  62. Re:Typical by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    You missed the point entirely. GP was claiming that the DSP techniques are "trivial" today. True though that they may be, it ignores the point that they were bleading edge when they were developed.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  63. Re:Typical by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    Yeah, because Apple has commented on this somewhere?

    You do realize that Apple doesn't even own Beats Audio yet, right? And that this legal action, in no way resembles Bose making an opportunistic money grab now that it looks like Beats will be gaining some very deep pockets in the next few weeks, right?

    Why didn't they sue months / years ago when Beats first put noise canceling products on the market?

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  64. Re:Typical by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    I'd like to temper the last bit of your post with the following addendum:

    It's not surprising that Beats Audio is getting sued for this all of a sudden, now that they are about to have some very deep pockets for a potential settlement.

    Oh, and Beats has had noise canceling tech shipping for at least a year, so this seems very much like Bose waiting until they could extract a nice cash settlement rather than actually working to protect a competitive technical advantage.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  65. Re:Typical by doccus · · Score: 1

    Bose knew all about Beats long before Apple aquired it. So obviouslyu theyre only trying to squieeze apple. MAybe their shares are down? Maybe they went from a promising PA company to a late nite tv hawked "Super sound radio" company..

  66. Re:Typical by doccus · · Score: 1

    ALso, noise-cancelling technology isn't unique to, or even invented by BOSE. It's, AFAIK, a military patent.. and used in almost every modern headphone and smartphone made.

  67. Re:Typical by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

    That would be true. However, the computer itself and the means of producing it can be patented, but only for new designs and new production means. Wiring components together on stripboards would not count, for example, but building a new type of lithography machine might. A working quantum computer most likely would, as well as usher in a whole slew of new and patentable ideas, since it should work very differently from current computer designs.

    --
    The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  68. Re:Typical by niftymitch · · Score: 1

    ALso, noise-cancelling technology isn't unique to, or even invented by BOSE. It's, AFAIK, a military patent.. and used in almost every modern headphone and smartphone made.

    But what military?

    Of interest if a military design was classified and if someone invented
    the same thing how could this be litigated. In some cases the disclosure
    need only be a public RFP that implies it is possible for another skilled
    in the art to go and do it.

    Since the secrecy order covers methods and capabilities it could be
    that military hardware designs will never be used to show prior art.

    FIrst rumor I heard on noise cancellation was for Israel tank communication
    systems. Second was old AT&T stuff in the acoustic labs at bell labs for
    navy designs.

    The patent system is a closed ecosystem and if no one ever filed a patent
    on something invented 2000 years ago by a Roman a patent would get issued
    and used to extort funds from small players where the cost of litigation
    vs. the cost of paying extortion makes the decision.

    The other issue is language. Many inventions use alternative language
    to isolate their filing from all others. Multiple devices to virtualize large
    storage could be used and not trigger a match from a filing involving
    redundant array of inexpensive disks etc...

    Technical readers could discover some of these but there is no $$ in doing
    it. Some large organizations involved in natural language processing might
    crack this open as inventions in many nations are stolen and used
    in others. This is hard but translation from IEEE publication to PartentOffice to
    Chinese, Russian and more might prove to generate matches of interesting
    to national security and industry in general (pick your nation... no fixed answer
    is correct here).

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.