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Amazon's eBook Math

An anonymous reader writes: Amazon has waged a constant battle with publishers over the price of ebooks. They've now publicly laid out their argument and the business math behind it. "We've quantified the price elasticity of e-books from repeated measurements across many titles. For every copy an e-book would sell at $14.99, it would sell 1.74 copies if priced at $9.99. So, for example, if customers would buy 100,000 copies of a particular e-book at $14.99, then customers would buy 174,000 copies of that same e-book at $9.99. Total revenue at $14.99 would be $1,499,000. Total revenue at $9.99 is $1,738,000." They argue that capping most ebooks at $9.99 would be better for everyone, with the money split out 35% to the author, 35% to the publisher, and 30% to Amazon.

Author John Scalzi says Amazon's reasoning and assumptions are a bit suspect. He disagrees that "books are interchangeable units of entertainment, each equally as salable as the next, and that pricing is the only thing consumers react to." Scalzi also points out that Amazon asserts itself as the only revenue stream for authors, which is not remotely true. "Amazon's assumptions don't include, for example, that publishers and authors might have a legitimate reason for not wanting the gulf between eBook and physical hardcover pricing to be so large that brick and mortar retailers suffer, narrowing the number of venues into which books can sell. Killing off Amazon's competitors is good for Amazon; there's rather less of an argument that it's good for anyone else."

306 comments

  1. I like it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It would be nice if some of the more expensive textbooks were priced at 9.99. They would probably end up growing the market and making more money.

    1. Re:I like it. by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 4, Funny

      Elsevier won't have it.

    2. Re: I like it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      $15 for a hardcover is reasonable to me. For an ebook, I feel ripped off. Pass.

    3. Re:I like it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish they were 9.99 too! But realistically I think the textbook market is fairly inelastic, which is why they charge so much.

      That said, if they were $9.99 I'd probably require two books instead of just one for my course this fall. But even if every instructor did that they'd still be making less.

    4. Re: I like it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Is that based on the premise that $0.10 worth of materials and $0.20 worth of electricity to run the robots make that much difference in the bottom line price of a book?

      Last I checked, even eBooks need editors, marketers, authors, and a host of other "support" personnel to see publication, if you don'twant to be reading mostly shitty self-published fan fiction. The $15 price of a book is a lot less dictated by the materials it's printed on than it is the time and effort required by numerous people to produce it.

    5. Re:I like it. by KingOfBLASH · · Score: 1

      I'd settle for textbooks available in ebook form on a common platform like kindle, as well as pricing them below $50.

    6. Re: I like it. by horza · · Score: 2

      The hardback version has extra value: offline ability, future-proofed technology, DRM free, prestige value on the bookshelf, and easy resale. However you are right in that the price is bottom-bounded by the factors you mention, time and ability.

      Why has the softback version of a book always been considerably cheaper than the hardback? It's not harder to produce, and the difference in cost in materials is insignificant. It is because by delaying the publication of the soft-back they know they can price gouge real fans who must have the book "now".

      Not passing on cost-savings of the electronic version over printed is as wrong as assuming no distribution cost means something is worth less in terms of content. Some books are better than others, some longer, some must-have tomes to be re-read over and over again, some to be read in an afternoon and forgotten. Price is an arbitary thing to set, and it's not on what it is worth but what will generate the most revenue.

      Amazon is there to optimise revenue, which in theory should work out in favour of the author and publisher. Why don't bricks and mortar adapt to the ebook? A bit like cinema adapted to the dvd. Here is my vision:

      * large coffee shop style lounge areas to read, as you have already
      * pick up an ebook on your way in, log in using your shop membership username and password (or come in with your own)
      * the walls are covered in massive colour touch screens 1m x 1m, tiled with book covers with synopsis underneath
      * you can swipe the screens to scroll through books, hit buttons to drill down by category/author/etc
      * pressing one of the covers zaps the covers, index and 1st chapter to the ebook you are reading
      * at the end of the chapter there is a "Buy now" button, which when you hit it has the same monetary distribution (ie 1/3 to the store / publisher / author)

      It would provide a venue to host live Q&A with authors, a more social place to browse where you can look over other people's shoulders, an interesting refuge whilst the SO is clothes shopping.

      Phillip.

    7. Re: I like it. by Casualposter · · Score: 2

      A large part of the cost of publishing a book is the printing. I reference an old article that I read on Baen Books, whose source page I am too pressed for time to locate. I've had enough stuff printed to know that the upfront costs on "set up" are pretty steep in many cases - from everything from tee shirts to novels. So the more you print, the lower the cost per unit. This set up and printing cost does not exist for publishers of ebooks. They still have to market, design, edit, and pay the author, but if everything in the arrangement between the author and the publisher is the same for ebooks and paper bound books, the publisher stands to make the money and not the author.

      As for the "shitty self published" stuff, think about the number of indy bands. Sure a lot of them suck, but not all of them. The ones that suck vanish, the others don't always vanish. TO assume that anyone not signed by a publisher is crap is the same as thinking that the only good music comes out of signed bands played on the radio. The market for novels is shifting. Publishers have never been that good at figuring out what would be a big hit. They are also having some issues, as are authors, about what to do as the literature market shifts.

      I'm not willing to pay the same or close to the same price for an ebook because I can't share that with anyone, and it can be taken away by the publisher at any time. I can't resell it or buy a used one. It requires electricity to read and the batteries only last so long. So it is a limited product. Less valuable.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    8. Re:I like it. by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      I don't want distribution channels singlehandedly pricing things. That power only leads to abuses as well.

      eBooks should be priced by the "maker", but private people should be able to sell their copy, to provide pressure on the market kinda like used cars do to new cars. Personally I think ebooks would be well served at 2.99 or so a for the average book, instead of pricing them as if they still had to support large book stores and all the inbetweens from there back to the printer plus disposing of unsold copies.

      Some books have to be expensive for the author to recoup their cost for a limited audience who won't care if the book is $100 or $125. You know, studies of the dung of wood beetles devouring maple flooring complete with color pics, etc. And at $5, it's not going to sell any more copies and we just get the tyranny of the mainstream, where everyone shoots for a piece of the bellcurve near the middle.

      At the same time, the textbook market would collapse for the most part if most institutions went the way of the japanese and printed 6 week sheets to give to HS and undergraduate college students. Since these subjects don't change all that much, it would be trivial if all the highschools in one state banded together to get this done. And then have that effort domino effect.

    9. Re: I like it. by miltonw · · Score: 1

      Do the editors, marketers and the rest have to work harder if more books are sold? How does pricing ebooks at $15+ or $10 affect what editors, marketers and such make? The only ones who would be affected by the pricing and quantities sold are author and publisher.

    10. Re: I like it. by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      So have two e-editions with two prices, one that comes out early with the hardbacks and includes something extra... an additional short story, visual media, lack of DRM, whatever, and one that comes out later with just the main text. Or... just drop the price of the ebook when the softback comes out.

      Price elasticity of demand curves are just that—curves, so dropping the price below $9.99 doesn't mean revenue will continue to grow. However, I won't buy their claims until I see their curve, and I bet it supports that dropping the price to $8.99 or even $7.99 increases revenue even further.

      How many think that paying ten dollars for something for which the marginal cost is nearly zero is rather absurd? Virtually free replication is something for which capitalism is not well suited, hence all the manufactured scarcity we see.

    11. Re:I like it. by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      Some areas, like biology, change quickly enough to justify introducing new editions every few years. Others most certainly do not, and publishers only do that to obsolete the existing copies, creating a demand for new ones and hence supporting a higher price. Teachers can't require a book for which there may not be adequate supply, so anytime publishers change editions, teachers have to go along. What a racket.

    12. Re: I like it. by astar · · Score: 1

      Historically book publishers sold paper. The content was sort of a loss leader. You can *feel* the disruption in the Force from ebooks.

      You might want to identify publishers who are other than paper pushers historically. Baen and Beacon come to my mind.

    13. Re: I like it. by RavenLrD20k · · Score: 1

      So why do the paperback versions of a $15 hardback book generally cost $7 - $8? Paperbacks as well as Hardbacks still need all of the above support personnel you speak of. At $9.99 Amazon is STILL coming in above the paperback price of most books.

      I'm sorry, but the arguments that Scalzi puts forth above are absolute shit, and you have the hint of schill about you. There is no reason that the electric format should cost anywhere near the cost of a hardback. Hell, IMHO the electronic format should really be below the paperback price because of the lack of dead leaf being used for its production... but I can understand the industry's desire to hold on to their model and I feel, much as Amazon seems to, that $10 is a reasonable compromise.

      If they REALLY want to milk the consumer they should use a similar model for E-books that they use for paperbacks; as in, release the first edition hardback at $15, wait a month for sales to start becoming stale, then release the paperback and E-book at the same time at the reduced rate.

    14. Re: I like it. by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Um...other than the month, that's exactly what they do do. They release the HC at one price point, the e-book for something less, then a year or so later, they release the MMPB and the price of the e-book is lowered to match. Not to mention that the vast majority of authors aren't published in HC at all, so their e-books start out around $6.

    15. Re: I like it. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The price of the hardcover is higher because it comes out first, and so it gets more money from people who are willing to spend it. The trick is that, if you sell something for $15, wait a year, and drop the price to $8 and keep selling it (so it's obviously not just on clearance), you're going to tick off the people who spent $15. If you give them a slightly nicer physical package, so you're not selling the exact same thing for $8, you get an extra $7 from the people who really want it without making them resent you. The problem with just dropping the price of the eBook is that it does cause that resentment.

      You also seem to be imagining books being sold on a cost plus profit basis, so a book that's cheaper to produce should be correspondingly lower priced. In fact, like everything else, books are priced to maximize profit. It turns out that book demand is pretty inelastic, so that a book priced at $4 won't sell anywhere near twice as many copies as if it were priced at $8. There's limits to how many books I'm going to buy regardless of cost, and books are pretty cheap entertainment (even at my reading speed). (There's also the fact that the difference in cost between a physical book and an eBook isn't all that great. If it were possible to sell hundreds of thousands of $1 books, the price difference would be very significant, but it usually isn't.)

      What Amazon and Scalzi are arguing about is primarily who benefits from what (and secondarily about demand curves). Amazon and Scalzi both benefit from every copy of "Redshirts" Amazon sells, but Scalzi benefits from copies sold through other venues and Amazon doesn't. To make up numbers, suppose an $18 hardcover. If the eBook is $15, Scalzi will presumably sell more physical hardcovers, and the 74% increase in sales for a $10 eBook might come at the expense of the hardcover, so Scalzi makes more money on the eBooks, less on the paper editions, and loses overall. (Disclaimer: I bought the Nook version of the book.) Moreover, Scalzi is interested in having some sort of competition in the bookselling business, so he's not completely at Amazon's mercy in a dispute between Amazon and his publisher, while Amazon would like a monopoly in the bookselling business.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    16. Re:I like it. by Optali · · Score: 1

      As the OP writes this si not necessarily so: People do not buy books just because of the price. When I buy a (literary) book it's because I am interested in the content. If the price of the eBook is high I buy the hardcover copy instead (even if the price is higher). I may be interested in the ebook version for convenience. For tech ebooks I have a few free resources (legal) where I can find what I need and the rest is online. So, the price is not a feature I pay too much attention to when buying book.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
  2. Disengenous by Moof123 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I read through Amazon's logic, they wanted to single-handedly re-write the relationship that already exists between the author and the publisher. It is a very thinly veiled move to try and cutout the publisher. While I abhor middlemen, it really struck me as not being Amazon's place to stick their nose into. I have less and less sympathy for Amazon. It is clear they want to be the 800 lb gorilla on too many fronts for my comfort.

    1. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      they wanted to single-handedly re-write the relationship that already exists between the author and the publisher.

      Otherwise known as "building a better mousetrap".

      You really want to keep the old system? Are you that worried that poor people will be seen reading your book?

    2. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disingenuous? You gotta be kidding. Any company that does not post results in their favor is damaging themselves.

      I'll bet you think it's good form to vote for someone besides yourself in an election too.

    3. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have no problems at all with Amazon using their muscle to get me lower prices, middle-men be damned, but it's an interesting question whether this means more or less money for authors.

      What we've seen from Steam sales is that lower prices mean more revenue - often vastly more. Are books the same? I rather suspect so. Top-tier authors can demand the price they want, but there are only a handful of such in any genre. For the vast majority of e.g. SF authors, a SF book really is much like a $5 game: they aren't completely interchangeable, but I can find more that look good than I have time for.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:Disengenous by rogoshen1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd rather not live in a world where the only places to shop are walmart, amazon, and maybe costco. using size and supply chain efficiency to force smaller guys out of business is not a good thing in the long run.

    5. Re:Disengenous by mspohr · · Score: 2

      I'm sure Amazon has the data to back up their economic argument of the relative sales at 9.99 vs 14.99 for most books.
      They want to sell more books and generate more revenue. This helps them, the publishers and authors.
      I don't see anything evil here.

      --
      I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
    6. Re:Disengenous by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I've never voted for myself in an election.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    7. Re:Disengenous by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Funny
      I, for one, admire Amazon's chutzpah.

      They're squeezing the entire book publishing industry, and asking authors and publishers what their problem is.

      Look, we've done the math for you asshat. Why aren't you grateful?

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    8. Re:Disengenous by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Precisely. There's also the question of how a lower price affects the sales curve in the long-term, since they never provided a time period over which that 1.74 number held true. For a publisher or author looking to maximize profits in the short-term, sure, lower prices are great, no doubt. But if you're trying to develop a sustainable business or career, saturating the market with a flood of cheap copies may not be a good thing, since it may mean that sales drop off faster. Or it may be a good thing, because it attracts more attention or produces an initial sales spike that's big enough to make up for the difference. Unfortunately, Amazon's numbers don't tell us definitively either way, though they try to phrase things such that it appears to be a universal truth that everyone should accept without question as being obvious.

      As a quick aside, Amazon is particularly masterful at finding exactly the right set of numbers and statistics to paint the picture they want and then phrasing them so that they sound like a categorical victory, rather than one that has an asterisk next to it. They do it significantly better than Google, Apple, Microsoft, or their other competitors, so whenever they make a press release or financial report, you have to parse what's being said very carefully.

    9. Re:Disengenous by cob666 · · Score: 1

      WHAT?

      So, authors don't want to have a large price gap between a real book and an ebook? Do they NOT realize that with the real book you get an actual real book. With the ebook you get a limited, revocable license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for.

      I'm still wondering why the price gap isn't larger.

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law - Aleister Crowley
    10. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 1

      Why? As long as there are 3 or more, why care about anything but price and selection? If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no? At least, it is for me.

      For physical goods it's important that there are places that sell more expensive goods, too, because sometimes there's too much quality sacrificed in the cheap stuff, but there's always someone selling the high-margin stuff. The price may be unappealing there, but, hey, what do you expect?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    11. Re:Disengenous by rmdingler · · Score: 2
      There is an undisclosed cost to be paid for operating on the sole advantage of being the lowest bidder for my Dinar.

      If the customer is only loyal to price, she or he is only beholden to your retail outlet as long as you are the lowest. So to stay in business, that's what you'll always be...Shout Out to you Walmart.

      If on the other hand, you use your marginally-profitable market share to expand product and service lines in a successful bid for brand loyalty, well you're officially crafty. Props to Amazon.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    12. Re:Disengenous by sublayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... With the ebook you get a ... license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for.

      This applies equally to physical books.

    13. Re:Disengenous by NoKaOi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When I read through Amazon's logic, they wanted to single-handedly re-write the relationship that already exists between the author and the publisher. It is a very thinly veiled move to try and cutout the publisher.

      So what? Publishers have a similar role to record companies. Somebody else creates the product, they edit the product, but mostly they are just the marketing firm. Why should they be getting a bulk of the profits? When people suggest this sort of thing with music, you hear chants of hell ya, stick it to the record companies who are getting a lot more money than they deserve for what they do. Yet when it comes to book publishers, you're saying the opposite. Times, they are a changin'. No longer must an author rely solely on a publisher to create physical copies of their books and get them into book stores. E-Books can be sold on Amazon in a similar manner to how music can be sold on iTunes, at which point publishers are just the marketers. Obviously book publishers are going to fight to keep their massive piece of the pie, just as record companies do.

      Did online music purchasing destroy music? Did they destroy record companies? Hell no, record company profits are up because people purchase more music. They have had a pretty big impact on physical retailers though.

      Will selling e-books at an appropriate price on Amazon (and B&N etc) destroy book publishers? Why would it be any different from the record companies? They are already having an impact on physical retailers though, and that impact will likely only increase.

    14. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you. Straight up. If this was about the RIAA and their publishers you'd be modded a troll. It should be no different here. Writers and publishers enter agreements. Amazon shouldn't be punished for wanting to do better.

    15. Re:Disengenous by Jodka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...using size and supply chain efficiency to force smaller guys out of business is not a good thing in the long run.

      Why is it bad for efficient suppliers to replace inefficient suppliers? And why bad in the long run but not the short run?

      If efficient suppliers replaced inefficient suppliers, but then in the long run inefficient suppliers returned to dominate the market, than that would be a good outcome in your view.

      Can you explain your reasoning?

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    16. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, but you can hand off the "real" book to a friend, they can then pass that on to another friend.

      With an e-book, you can only "loan" it out to someone, if, and only if
      A) The format supports loaning out
      B) The person you want to loan it out to has the same piece of hardware and is at the same level as yours is.

    17. Re:Disengenous by alen · · Score: 1

      the games on sale make up revenue and profits on the DLC that some people will buy later at full price

      there is no DLC for books, yet. and no IAP yet either

    18. Re:Disengenous by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd rather not live in a world where the only places to shop are walmart, amazon, and maybe costco. using size and supply chain efficiency to force smaller guys out of business is not a good thing in the long run.

      I disagree. Small bookstores were crap. They had the bestsellers, and a small random assortment of other books. Amazon has a better deal on the bestsellers, and has millions of other books. This is not only far better for customers, but better for niche authors as well. The small booksellers are gone, and good riddance. Now the publishers are getting squeezed. Good. The fewer middlemen between the customers and the authors, the better.

         

    19. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 2

      There's very little DLC going on on Steam (this isn't the app store article, that one's that way --->). This was straight-up market experimentation. Game devs found that dropping their price from $20 to $10 could generate 10x or more as many sales, and a drop from $10 to $5 could generate another 10x increase in sales.

      I'm sure part of that it getting below where some people are willing to pirate the game, but I suspect most of it is just getting to the impulse-buying threshold. $20 game I don't know much about? Even if it looks good, I'm going to read some reviews on meta-critic and think about it. $5 game that looks good from the store page? What the heck, easier to just play it and see.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Disengenous by blackest_k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      cheaper books , good for me, but i also like going out to book stores to find something interesting.
      in the long term, the book stores go out of business now its harder to find interesting books.

      long term the prices will tend to rise as competition has been eliminated to a large extent.

      Amazon is winning too much, it seems as if kindle is becoming synonomous with ebook reader. Thats not a good thing, no additional storage, no pdf support , no library support. Trouble is they do sell ebooks cheaper. I've jist picked up a sony their store has gone and the kobo book store app says i'm not living in a supported region. It runs a locked version of android, which could support the kindle app.
      Which might be better for sony and me.
       

    21. Re:Disengenous by Alrescha · · Score: 2

      You're not the 'efficient seller' if you lose money at it. You're just burning cash to decimate the field.

      A.

      --
      ...bringing you cynical quips since 1998
    22. Re:Disengenous by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As an author, I can tell you that Amazon and their eBook pricing means more money (overall) for Authors. Maybe not for the "best seller"s who don't actually sell many books, but their publishing house prints lots of them and sends them out to stores, so while they end up on the bargain rack or destroyed, they still make the NY Times list based on the lay-down. Yeah, the authors people don't actually want to read will ultimately make less money, but the real authors that people like and want to buy from will make a lot more.

      There is currently a battle going on in the industry between the special favorites of the big 6 publishing houses and the midlisters and independents. There are very few authors who can get a reasonable deal out of one of the publishing houses. Everyone else is getting contracts which require them to sign away their works forever, sign away any future works in the same genre, sign away all electronic rights, etc... for a $5K advance on a one or two book contract.

      The midlisters and indies are running to ebooks and small publishing houses as fast as they can. It's not a mystery why. Amazon will pay 70% on an ebook. A publisher will typically pay maybe 15% (on poorly documented bookscan sales numbers, even on eBooks, which should be exact!) Where they used to purcahse only limited publication rights, which expired after they took the book out of print, now they want contracts where the author will never get their book back, even if the publishing house isn't actually doing anything with it.

      If you are a well-known celebrity, or you sell millions of copies, then a big 6 publisher may work with you on somewhat fair terms. Otherwise, they won't edit you (it's gotten much worse over the last few years), they won't market you and they'll barely make sure your latest book stays on store shelves for a month.

      The big 6 publishers are not only an issue in terms of IP rights and author payments, but they are also a very bad gatekeeper. Ever wonder why so many old SF authors stopped publishing and much of what is out there now is crap? It's because they're being picked by a publishing house with a NY "editor" who probably doesn't even like SF. They literally drove popular authors (who wrote what people actually wanted to read) out of the business. If an author sold too much (i.e. more than the editor projected), did they reprint and push the book? No, they'd keep the same print run and just stop publishing it when it hit the number projected as the max, usually tiny. Baen was the only real exception of any size in the industry. Jim Baen also did eBooks right from the start (gave old ones away in order to promote newer books in the same series/by the same author). That's all just starting to turn around because of Amazon, on-demand publishing and eBooks. Old famous authors are even starting to put out the books their publishing house stopped selling, or that they couldn't get published in the first place because it wasn't the editor's latest fad.

      Also, the big 6 publishing houses have a massively left-leaning bias. They've spent decades now killing the sales numbers of entire genres because the authors were required to toe the line of the latest politically correct movement. You can date books in some genres by the issues and characters the editors required. Many books that adults like have been pushed into YA categories, just because if it it's not "edgy" enough, the NY editors don't want to buy it. Forget about what will sell, they buy what they'll want to tell their NY publishing friends about at the next cocktail party.

      Scalzi is the poster-child cheerleader for the big 6 publishing houses. He's on the "inside" of the publishing establishment and does everything he can to defend them. He could care less about SF authors, just about his publishing buddies.

      You want the real scoop on Amazon and Authors? Go look at Mad Genius Club, or According to Hoyt.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    23. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Baen ebooks have no DRM and are available in multiple formats for you to download at any time and transfer to your reader. More publishers should do the same. They have also released quite a few of their books for free which is how I came across David Weber. You have to hunt for some of the older Baen ISOs because of the agreements with Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

    24. Re:Disengenous by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I have to side with the planet. Dead trees, energy waste and pollution all point to ebooks being preferable to the printed variety. The authors earn less and many would only be able to indulge their hobby part time, whilst working at another career, is just a normal part of social change. I'll have to admit to not having read a book for quite a long time, much preferring the interactivity of the internet and even computer games. Something like slashdot makes for a better read than a passive book and it contains as much non-fiction as any typical paperback ;D.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    25. Re:Disengenous by tapi0 · · Score: 1

      depends where, I believe that here in the UK at least you are able to have the book read out and recorded, copied to a large print, converted to brail, even typed up into word for you to read on screen. Of course, you could just buy them in that format to start with, but there's nothing illegal about doing so (or paying someone to do it for you).

    26. Re:Disengenous by unrtst · · Score: 1

      I'd rather not live in a world where the only places to shop are walmart, amazon, and maybe costco. using size and supply chain efficiency to force smaller guys out of business is not a good thing in the long run.

      While I agree, when it comes to ebooks, there's no reason someone else couldn't capture that market. The only thing they have going is that the Kindle is somewhat locked down, however, anyone can make an ebook that works on it (with or without DRM). Those 3 big companies are where they are due to the awesome distribution work they have in place + size (negotiation power) + software. Those things don't matter nearly as much for ebooks.

      I don't think Amazon should force a maximum price for ebooks, but I do think anyone selling both the ebook and the physical book on that same site (amazon in this case) should have the ebook at a lower price than the physical copy.

    27. Re:Disengenous by unrtst · · Score: 1

      Amazon is winning too much, it seems as if kindle is becoming synonomous with ebook reader. Thats not a good thing, no additional storage, no pdf support , no library support.

      Are you talking about eInk e-reader, or their tablet?
      If eInk, good luck filling up the storage they give you with books. Pdf support is there (as far as I can tell), and you can borrow books from the library using overdrive (checkout is not built in, but it works).

      If you're referring to their tablet, just get a generic android tablet. You can install all the reader apps on it (Amazon Kindle, BN Nook, Kobo, FBReader, etc).

      I do wish their eink kindle allowed other "app stores", so to speak, but I think that'd be entirely possible using the browser, and they do have app support (I have scrabble on mine).

    28. Re:Disengenous by mysidia · · Score: 1

      What we've seen from Steam sales is that lower prices mean more revenue - often vastly more. Are books the same?

      Maybe some, but not all books are the same. Perhaps the average book is the same.

      There are many important books that will probably never sell very many copies.... such as the K&R book "The C Programming Language"

      The authors need to be free to price their books accordingly and not have all books given a dictated price based on what the market will bear for the average book, when the is high variability in terms of "what a book is" and how big its audience is, and there are plenty of outliers.

    29. Re:Disengenous by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Since when is a license to read an eBook revocable?

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    30. Re:Disengenous by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      ebooks often don't have right to resale or lending or whatever.

    31. Re:Disengenous by Prof.Phreak · · Score: 1

      hopefully agreements with authors won't be exclusive... so authors can offer their books on amazon for a 30% cut of a 9.99 book, and still sell the same book for 9.99 on author's own website for the 100% of the revenue going to themselves.

      --

      "If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

    32. Re:Disengenous by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

      Typical example of the soaring bald eagle having become a creepy bold vulture.

    33. Re:Disengenous by Zargg · · Score: 1

      Since when is a license to read an eBook revocable?

      Amazon already did this back in 2009, not sure if they changed their policy like they claimed they would:

      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07...

    34. Re:Disengenous by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no?"
      Isn't the parent --implicitly, granted-- questioning the persistence, with 3 players, of that very thing, the 'finding what you want'? And here you turn it into a sort of an agreed upon premise.

    35. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even better, with Amazon or any other online retailer, I don't have to wait in line with some fool ahead of me telling their life story to the cashier or attempting a complex financial transaction.

    36. Re:Disengenous by Man+On+Pink+Corner · · Score: 2

      Everyone else is getting contracts which require them to sign away their works forever, sign away any future works in the same genre, sign away all electronic rights, etc... for a $5K advance on a one or two book contract.

      Exactly. Somehow, those predatory publisher contracts never come up in these threads about how evil Amazon is.

    37. Re:Disengenous by Jodka · · Score: 2

      You're not the 'efficient seller' if you lose money at it.

      Though inefficiencies reduce profitability, the inference that negative profitability implies inefficiency is invalid.

      Let's unpack your own reasoning here: An inefficient business will be unprofitable. Amazon is unprofitable. Therefore, Amazon is inefficient. If A, then B. B, therefore A. The category of error you have made is termed "affirming the consequent", colloquially known as Modus Morons.

      Profit is, to quote WP, "the difference between the purchase and the component costs of delivered goods and/or services and any operating or other expenses." Therefore negative profitability could result from either inordinately low pricing or inordinately high expenses, or both.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    38. Re:Disengenous by Dan+East · · Score: 5, Insightful

      cheaper books , good for me, but i also like going out to book stores to find something interesting.
      in the long term, the book stores go out of business now its harder to find interesting books.

      So in other words, you would prefer for everyone to subsidize the brick and mortar shopping environment that you personally enjoy, whereas the majority of other shoppers may not have such preferences and just want to purchase at the lowest possible price. That sound about right?

      I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, because I have very fond memories of going into bookstores as a youth (and adult of course) and just the smell alone is wonderful. However like so many other things (photography via chemical coated film that must be developed and printed, etc) its days are numbered.

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    39. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If by Middlemen you are referring to Editors (who read the book, find grammatical errors, find plot errors, etc etc), typesetters ,Graphics illustrators then they will still be there. Unless of course you dont want book proof read etc which will lower the quality.

      The author is NOT the right person to do this. Lawyers have a saying "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client".

    40. Re:Disengenous by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      What we've seen from Steam sales is that lower prices mean more revenue - often vastly more.

      By that logic, if it were free, I'd have an infinite amount of money!

      It doesnt quite work that way. We've also seen that if you raise music prices from 99 cents to $1.29, revenue increases as well. So in "mass-market," the trick is to find where that magic price point is. Am I more likely to buy a book that sells for $9.99 than I am to buy one that is $14.99? If I made it $8.99 instead of $9.99, would I sell more copies to make up for the price difference?

      It can also depend on what you're selling. If I write a good pulp-fiction novel, I may do pretty well selling it for $4.99 because lots of people will buy it. On the other hand, an insightful treatise on the condition of the economy of Lithuania and how it relates to grain costs in Poland probably would need to be priced a bit higher if I'm to eke out a living off of it because there will be fewer buyers.

    41. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds good to me. With a traditional publisher, the author gets maybe a dollar on a twenty dollar book. With amazon, they would get $3.50 on a ten dollar book.

      Even better, cut out physical books and therefore the publisher and now the author gets seven times the amount of money.. Or they can survive on selling one seventh as many books, being able to cater to smaller niche audiences.

    42. Re:Disengenous by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If by Middlemen you are referring to Editors (who read the book, find grammatical errors, find plot errors, etc etc), typesetters ,Graphics illustrators then they will still be there.

      There is no reason that any of these services need to be, or should be, bundled with "publishing". There are plenty of people offering these services, either per-page, or for an hourly rate. You can find them on any Freelancer website.

    43. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 1

      Technical books are different, but anything that busts the current obscene textbook scam is a win for society, hands down.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    44. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 2

      Nevertheless, the actual, non-hypothetical, vast increase in game sales on Steam as price points can down from $20 to $5 or so are well documented.

      If you're writing a detailed scholarly work, you quite likely have your scholarly day job as your primary source of revenue. Similarly for most technical books. The few "must have" technical reference manuals that cost a fortune just to typeset and will only sell a few copies don't need Amazon eBooks as a sales channel - the engineers who need them will buy them without Amazon, as they have for a century or so.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    45. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I read through Amazon's logic, they wanted to single-handedly re-write the relationship that already exists between the author and the publisher. It is a very thinly veiled move to try and cutout the publisher. While I abhor middlemen, it really struck me as not being Amazon's place to stick their nose into. I have less and less sympathy for Amazon. It is clear they want to be the 800 lb gorilla on too many fronts for my comfort.

      Scalzi also points out that Amazon asserts itself as the only revenue stream for authors, which is not remotely true.

      I agree Amazon has become nothing more then a monopoly and of course wants to ensure itself as the end/do all of everything. But they are also #1 when it comes to e-book sells, for this idiot author to assert A, Amazon is the only one, and B, without Amazon he thinks we would make more money, only shows how publishers themselves have gotten authors convinced that their being ripped off. Publishers are no different then the defunct system, Record/Film industries use. In the end the authors are still getting f***d over. The complete idiocy of authors to stand up for an industry that has done the very same thing to them that they now accuse Amazon of doing is becoming laughable.

      The author doesn't seem to care if the book sells, and he doesn't make anything. But goes on to moan over how much money he is losing (when he wouldn't really) if you discount the book in order for it to sell. You could set a price for the first 50,000 units then raise it up a couple bucks, and continue to do so after every 50,000 books.

    46. Re:Disengenous by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Then Libraries should partner with Amazon. Like the book. Try it in the library. Order it, and your UAV will drop it off at your house before you get home (or upload it to your Kindle). There's already lots of "free" places to browse books. The library. I don't see the problem.

    47. Re:Disengenous by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      There is no reason that any of these services need to be, or should be, bundled with "publishing". There are plenty of people offering these services, either per-page, or for an hourly rate. You can find them on any Freelancer website.

      Do these NEED to be bundled? No. SHOULD they be? I don't know. That depends on the situation. What I can tell you is that I care about good editing, consistent formatting, good writing, and an overall decent job in making a book. There may be loads of qualified people out there who can do these things as freelancers, but how do I know if the book I'm looking at to buy was edited by these qualified people, or by the author himself, who did a crappy job, or something in between?

      Today, if I purchase a book from any number of reputable presses, I know exactly what to expect for these standards. Further, I know that many of these presses only accept quality vetted monographs for publication in the first place. I also know that the vast majority of books I want to buy (mostly specialized "academic" books) require a higher standard of care and expertise than average... and they may only sell a few thousand or even a few hundred copies, so they'll never even get put together for publication at a price of $10.

      You want to live in a world without all that stuff? Fine. Let your books be done the way you want. But why does that justify you in saying it's okay for Amazon to bully publishers so it's no longer possible for anyone to make the kind of books I want? Obviously in many cases publishers are skimming money off the top. In the case of books I buy, the publisher often are losing money even when they charge $50 or more per book. (And yes, I know some of the people who run the backend of academic presses, so I'm not making this up.)

      Why shouldn't someone who produces a product be able to decide its price? If we really want the market to be free and resolve unnecessary inefficiencies, then let customers decide, not Amazon. If customers only buy the $10 crap books from no-name press and self-publications, the publishers will naturally go out of business. If, on the other hand, customers are willing to pay $15 or $20 or $50 for a book -- for whatever reason -- why should Amazon be able to say the publisher can't charge that?

    48. Re:Disengenous by swillden · · Score: 2

      in the long term, the book stores go out of business now its harder to find interesting books.

      Nonsense.

      Look at Baen's model... the first few chapters of all of their books are available for free, all on-line, all trivially easy for you to browse and sample, at no risk, wherever and whenever it's convenient to you. For that matter, they offer full novels from their top authors for free. So you can read the first book of a 15-novel series at no cost, hooking you for the other 14.

      How can book stores, with their limited shelf space and immobility, compete with that?

      Of course, that's Baen, not Amazon. Because Baen is a publisher, they have the freedom to do things like offer the first ~50 pages free, while Amazon has to obey the publishers' rules. But in a world where browsing bookshelves is gone, Baen's approach, or something like it, will be necessary to generate sales, so it will be done.

      Just because you're accustomed to one way of finding good reading material doesn't mean it's the only one, or even the best one.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    49. Re:Disengenous by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Well, you mention the vast increase in game sales on Steam. The question isn't "did you sell more games at the lower price point." As a company, I'm not interested in customers--I'm interested in money. As the dot-bomb taught us, having lots of customers doesn't mean a thing unless you're making money off of them.

      Someone below had an entertaining post about a city that had floated a bond to pay for a bridge and had set up a toll on the bridge. As the bond was paid off, they lowered the price of the toll and made more money because more people used the bridge more often. So they lowered it again and made still more money! They lowered it a third time and made less. So the whole "lower prices equals more money" doesn't work--like I said, if it were free, you should have an infinite amount of money. There is a point where you're leaving money on the table.

      Setting a price is usually based on assumptions of how many people actually want this thing. For example, when movie studios started selling movies on VHS, they priced them around $80. They figured that only a small number of movie-buffs would actually want to own a particular movie. So the prices were set for the rental market--they knew that Blockbuster and local video stores were the ones buying the movies and that they were going to make money off the rentals. But when the video store bought 50 copies of a new release and, six months later, sold 40 of those copies cheap, people snapped them up. So the studios tried lowering the prices to catch those people and they made more money.

      Now you look at that example and say, "See? You're making more money by selling for less!" I look at that example and I say, "Their assumption as to the size of the market was incorrect."

      Assuming that developers are making more money by selling their game for $5 versus $20 (you state that sales increased, but did they increase more than 4x?), I'd be curious as to what assumptions they made causing them to set the price so high to begin with.

    50. Re:Disengenous by LostMyBeaver · · Score: 5, Informative

      While I feel your argument was probably not thought through well enough, I believe there is merit to it.

      Here in Norway, we tend to suffer a great deal as consumers because of the publisher/distributor relationship. The pricing model of books is highly predatory and the book rights for Norwegian translations also allow the local publisher to own the rights to the original language within the country. This drives prices on the original language and the translation through the roof since the cost of translating is so high that unless it's a #1 best seller, all the profit has to be made on a few hundred... possibly thousand copies. What is worse is that Norway has a higher English literacy level than either the U.S. or the U.K. We don't need these translations. They are translating them for no apparent reason... and worse... as the availability of English books through Amazon or others increases, the Norwegian translation market shrinks and the quality of the translations shrink too.

      Another major issue which I have is... I am willing to pay large amounts for Print-on-Demand if I need a paper book. In fact, I try to avoid purchasing books which were mass printed only to look good enough on display cases to attract sales.... then when the book cools down, they'll throw them away and recycle them. This practice is so fantastically stupid that I can't even imagine that the people who want to make this continue can even tie their shoe laces. I don't feel any personal need to help the printing business by printing documents which just don't need to be printed. Books should never be printed like that anymore. We have eBooks. I don't actually know anyone who prefers paper anymore... including wrinkle monsters.

      I don't care what the eBooks cost, but here's a simple rule.... I under no circumstance am willing to pay for the printing of a book in my eBooks. Meaning if I assume the printing cost of one book to be $1 and that the idiot publisher is probably printing three copies of the book for each one he sells... so let's be fair (toss him a cookie) and say to cover his costs, he needs to pay $2.50 for the cost of printing. Then the eBook should never cost more than $2.50 less than what the printed book would cost on the shelf of a brick and mortar store which will discount the book immediately. So if the MSRP is $20, a store would discount that book 10-25% which is why we have MSRP (feels great to save that 25% right?), so $15... now, subtract $2.50 to cover printing costs... that's $12.50.

      I'm willing to pay $12.50 for the eBook which is MSRP of $20.

      You know what? I'm willing to pay $20 for the paper copy if it's printed on demand instead of just killing the planet for fun. Of course, I'm not going to demand that paper copy unless I need it for reference.

    51. Re:Disengenous by Pretzalzz · · Score: 2

      Have you actually shopped at Amazon? Amazon offers the first couple chapters of all their books for free.

    52. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHAT? With the ebook you get a limited, revocable license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for.

      Three words. Pirate Bay. Calibre.

    53. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But they're NOT getting you lower prices.
      They're getting themselves a monopoly and as a side effect a temporary decrease of prices. How long do you think these prices will last when they gain complete control over the market?

      PS to earlier posters. Publishers are more than middlemen, otherwise they would've went extinct a hundred years ago.

    54. Re:Disengenous by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      Why should Amazon get as much as 30% for doing pretty much fuck all? Their selling software is already in place so no added costs apart from updating the stock database, let Amazon get 15% and give the other 15% to the customer to lower prices.

      Amazon 30% is taking the piss

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    55. Re:Disengenous by davester666 · · Score: 1

      we've spent the last 5 years taking a loss selling ebooks for $9.99 when we have to pay you $13-$15 each.

      for some reason, our shareholders aren't happy with this, and want us to stop doing it.

      so, would you mind just accepting $5/ebook for the next couple of years until we need to boost profits again?

      did I mention we totally created the ebook market by doing it as a loss leader, while simultaneously lowering the sales of your higher-profit physical books as well as the sales of all our competitors who can't afford to loose money on every sale?

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    56. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      An an author, you should know the expression is couldn't care less. As an author, I'll assume you're capable of researching this yourself.

    57. Re:Disengenous by bayankaran · · Score: 1

      Publishers have a similar role to record companies. Somebody else creates the product, they edit the product, but mostly they are just the marketing firm. Why should they be getting a bulk of the profits?

      Publishers ARE evil, but they do more than being middlemen.
      Even good writers need good editors. Look at the complaints on Slashdot summaries...the issue is poor editing, and that's a skill different from being a good writer. Editing is more than correcting spelling mistakes/grammar. On many occasions a book becomes much more enjoyable when a good editor spends time and energy on the manuscript.
      Fringe benefits like an advance on an upcoming book. Even if they take the rights perpetually, and the advance is too low, an advance is important.
      The books they reject may not be worth much even they got published. Look at the all the books in Amazon...a majority of books are worthless, they were made/published only because they could be published. For every example of a good book being rejected by publishers there are hundreds of examples of a bad book being rightly rejected.
      A writers job is to write. In the world of Amazon he/she will have to wear different hats...the marketing person, the editor (or find the editor), do the cheer leading to make his/her work standout etc. I have no idea how a real talent can emerge out of this madness.
      But the world will adapt and evolve and my fears are misplaced. For every publisher who closes shop, there will be people announcing their skills for a fee. In the end a new publishing order will appear, which is probably going to be the old itself, but working on smaller margins.

      --
      Tat Tvam Asi
    58. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 1

      Well, you mention the vast increase in game sales on Steam. The question isn't "did you sell more games at the lower price point." As a company, I'm not interested in customers--I'm interested in money. As the dot-bomb taught us, having lots of customers doesn't mean a thing unless you're making money off of them.

      But that's just it - revenue went up many-fold. It was something like 10x sales at $10, and 100x sales at $5, or something equally eye-popping. It wasn't about the total size of the market, since that's irrelevant to the little guys, but a serious underestimation of the demand curve. (Presumably the assumption behind $20 was "that's just what a mid-list game sells for- it's what it cost for our fathers, and their fathers, and their fathers before them")

      I don't know what's behind it all, or if it carries over to eBooks, but certainly Amazon isn't just crazy here. When the per-unit cost is basically 0, and we're not talking AAA titles, there's not a lot of historical comparison here. Of course, it does cost next to nothing to print books these days too, so I wouldn't assume the same curve as games, but it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    59. Re:Disengenous by ThePhilips · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Amazon 30% is taking the piss

      When Amazon takes 30%, everybody's up in arms.

      When publishers take 95% or more, it's fine, the business is as usual.

      We probably should start calling that "American logic". Because even "women logic" is above the level.

      --
      All hope abandon ye who enter here.
    60. Re:Disengenous by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      DRM's e-books (like on Amazon) are hard to lend out or re-sell. Prices are lower but more books are sold. Taking geography out of the distribution equation means that more books can be sold, without physically shipping a supply to every corner of the planet. Simpllfying the supply chain doesn't have to mean that the producer gets less money.

    61. Re: Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Abe books, international editions.

    62. Re:Disengenous by Ixokai · · Score: 1

      The reasoning you're unpacking is in your head -- the fallacy you point out exists entirely in your restatement of the argument, not the argument itself. Amazon has many documented examples of selling for a loss, a willingness to ignore short to medium term losses if it means control of a market.

      Amazon is not being merely efficient; Amazon is engaging in predatory pricing and other market-manipulations to try to control a market. That may mean their prices are lower right now, but if their other markets can cover that loss and can maintain that for long enough that they can run the loss until those businesses are destroyed, is the market well served? Is it efficiency? What contains that price after the competition is destroyed and drives efficiency then?

    63. Re:Disengenous by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

      Yep, when it gets cheap enough people say "I wants," and that is all the more thought it takes. They may never get around to playing it, doesn't matter, they wanted to have it and now they do and they got a "good deal" on it so they are happy.

      I do that ALL the time. I have more games than I can play. Not only that, I'm one of those who's very happy to replay old favourites. I really should buy new games pretty sparingly. However, when they are cheap, I buy them just to have them. As such a have a big list of games kicking around, particularly indy titles that tend to be cheaper.

    64. Re:Disengenous by gsslay · · Score: 1

      While I abhor middlemen, it really struck me as not being Amazon's place to stick their nose into.

      Amazon is a middleman. They aren't removing middlemen, all they are doing is pushing other middlemen out of the picture to establish a monopoly for themselves.

    65. Re:Disengenous by mpe · · Score: 1

      If by Middlemen you are referring to Editors (who read the book, find grammatical errors, find plot errors, etc etc), typesetters ,Graphics illustrators then they will still be there. Unless of course you dont want book proof read etc which will lower the quality.

      There are also, especially when it comes to self published authors like likes of "beta readers". Something quite interesting is that often different people spot different errors. Traditional publishers and editors are also far from foolproof in catching spelling and gramatical errors. Never mind plot and continuity errors.

      The author is NOT the right person to do this. Lawyers have a saying "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client".

      The actual reason is that the author know what the text should be. Thus their brain will "error correct".

    66. Re:Disengenous by gsslay · · Score: 1

      Is the author the best person to decide who would be the best illustrator, proof-reader, typesetter etc for their book? Their skill is in writing, what do they know anything about these things?

      So perhaps the writer needs someone who does know, someone who does it for a living and can advise and source the best for their book. Maybe this person can work on a percentage of sales, ensuring that everyone gets paid and profits accordingly from a successful book. What do we call them.. ? How about "Publisher"?

      Hang on, haven't we come full circle here?

    67. Re:Disengenous by gsslay · · Score: 1

      The authors earn less and many would only be able to indulge their hobby part time, whilst working at another career, is just a normal part of social change.

      But is it a good social change? Or don't we care? Is making writing something people can only ever afford to do part-time going to result in better books?

    68. Re:Disengenous by mpe · · Score: 1

      Why is it bad for efficient suppliers to replace inefficient suppliers? And why bad in the long run but not the short run?

      The only thing which tends to make suppliers "efficient" in a "market" is competition.
      Or at least the reasonable possibility of competition apearing.

      If efficient suppliers replaced inefficient suppliers, but then in the long run inefficient suppliers returned to dominate the market,

      It's more the other way around. Without effective competition suppliers who "dominate" a market will tend to become inefficient.
      Not only is there the issue of "barrier to entry" there's also that of "ease of switching".
      With the related issue of having to use a single supplier for all goods/services of type X. Since in a true "market" the customer is not tied to any supplier in the first place.

    69. Re:Disengenous by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      The author is NOT the right person to do this. Lawyers have a saying "A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client".

      I was told that by a Magistrate when I was representing myself in a violent crime case. I replied (much to the Magistrates enjoyment), "Anyone representing a lawyer has a fool for a client".

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    70. Re:Disengenous by necro81 · · Score: 1

      Why? As long as there are 3 or more, why care about anything but price and selection? If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no? At least, it is for me.

      Because I rather like having vibrant communities sprinkled with local businesses - places where people go and interact - and a local economy not predicated solely on the whims of the Fortune 500. The end-game of what you are advocating is that everyone stays home and buys everything online or, if they opt for brick-and-mortar, their only option are big-box stores: nondescript cookie-cutter islands of mega-commerce in a sea of blacktop parking lots. I don't want that to be the dominant model, even if it means I sometimes pay a smidgen more. That smidgen more "buys" me a community I want to live in, and neighbors that can afford to live there. There's a place for big-box stores and online commerce giants - I have made purchases at Target, Amazon, and Home Depot in the last month - but I worry about me and everyone else being screwed by hegemony.

    71. Re:Disengenous by Hodr · · Score: 1

      I see this as making sense for physical goods, but if they "destroy the market" for intangibles like eBooks, then raise their prices, it is trivially easy for the publishers or some third party to re-enter the market.

    72. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the smell alone is wonderful.

      The smell is not wonderful; it's a noxious glue/chemical smell. You just have Pavlovian associations between that stench and the positive reward of knowledge. You're smarter than a dog, so you should be able to work that out.

    73. Re:Disengenous by Jahta · · Score: 1

      Why? As long as there are 3 or more, why care about anything but price and selection? If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no? At least, it is for me.

      There's a lot of people who would disagree; like shoppers in the UK last year who bought supermarket ready meals only to later discover that they contained horse meat instead of beef or pork. The supermarkets tried to blame the suppliers. But in reality it was the supermarkets themselves, abusing their position and power in the supply chain to relentlessly push supplier prices down, that was the problem.

      Many consumers fixate on price, but don't seem to make the connection between price and quality ("How come my £1 beef lasagne contains no actual beef?"). Suppliers can't sell their wares below cost; they'd just go out of business. So when relentlessly pressed on price they use lower and lower quality raw materials, employ fewer/less competent staff, move production to the 3rd World, etc. And quality suffers. Ultimately you get what you pay for.

      Letting dominant (or monopoly) retailers set the agenda purely based on price is a recipe for a race to the bottom.

    74. Re:Disengenous by Balinares · · Score: 1

      I hate to state the obvious, but right now Amazon is attempting to muscle in a 43% markup just to do, basically, cp /publisher/book.epub /customer/. There is no reason I can see to explain this large a margin for digital distribution. So I wouldn't necessarily trust them to keep prices all that low once they get free run of the market.

      --

      -- B.
      This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
    75. Re:Disengenous by sh00z · · Score: 1

      WHAT? So, authors don't want to have a large price gap between a real book and an ebook? Do they NOT realize that with the real book you get an actual real book. With the ebook you get a limited, revocable license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for. I'm still wondering why the price gap isn't larger.

      I think some publishers and authors "get it." Lucius Shepard's last two hardcover books were published by Subterranean Press, and came out with boutique retail pricing (~$40, if I recall). I bought *both* of them, because, well, it's Lucius Shepard, and every word is golden. Amazon.com offered both at quite nice discounts from MSRP, so that's where I made my purchase.

      THEN, I spotted that Amazon has also released Kindle ebooks of both, at $5.99 and $6.99. This is, to me, a stunning example of price elasticity. These prices are so outrageously low that I happily bought the ebooks IN ADDITION TO the pbooks.

      I have the best of both worlds. My treasured paper copies won't have to suffer from being thrown around on a car seat or taken to the beach, and I have the reassuring solidity of a real copy that isn't subject to licensing.

      So, in some cases, increasing the price gap even further can lead to that most elusive thing in the publishing world: repeat sales.

    76. Re:Disengenous by sh00z · · Score: 1

      ... With the ebook you get a ... license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for.

      This applies equally to physical books.

      You left out the word "revocable" in the original. With a paper book, the publisher cannot come into my home and take the book back.

    77. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When Amazon selects the books they want to sell, and hires editors to work with the writers, the I'll be OK with them "building a better mousetrap" - but only as long as they have substantial competition. Until then, we need publishers, and they need to get into the electronic age. (personally, I prefer bookstores to on-line shopping, but my old eyes like to zoom text and push the screen away.)

    78. Re:Disengenous by Lord+Lemur · · Score: 1

      it is trivially easy

      Provided they have the capital, can find appropriate unsigned talent, negotiate around any contracts put into force with the backing of monopoly power on other bussiness that support the industry, and survive the assult on all fronts by the incumbant.

    79. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally price is a significant deciding factor to me.

      I remember not very long ago the typical paperback book cost c. $2-3 now they're $7-10?! That's one helluva an inflation rate. I wish that my salary increased at the same pace FFS!

      even $9.99 for an ebook is horribly egregiously high to me. They're at most worth $3. No manufacturing, no storage, no shipping, no retailer(w/physical assets to pay for), no editing(I'll die of apoplexy IF I ever read an ebook that has been edited*), etc.

      * One book that I won't name, I started recording errors and was up to 40 various grammatical/spelling errors and totally fucking lost it when I got towards the end of the book only to find pages and fucking of utter fucking gibberish. Edited my fucking ass! What's even more amazing is that the book was clearly scanned even though it was recent enough that they should have electronic copies which one would think would be easily(well relatively) converted to epub, AZW3, etc. but nope had to scan the fucking things and then lie through their teeth about fucking editing is so fucking expensive that even though we already fucking did it for the print copy anyways(and just as a general good business practice) that it tacks on $6 to the cost of an ebook version even though well, we just scanned it, said well we edited before, so ship it! Fucking pisses me off to no end. And this is just ONE of MANY examples, from MAJOR publishers.**

      ** In case you missed it, I'm a bit pissed with those fuckers! TOR does a fucking better job with their FREE releases FFS!

    80. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, you miss the other important function of publishers besides marketing. And that's venture capital. What do you think an advance is?

      These days, though, venture capital is less needed than before.

    81. Re:Disengenous by Ozymandias_KoK · · Score: 1

      Totally agree with this. I don't even hardly ever game anymore, but $5 purchases sure make for an easy win if I'm at all interested, just in case. I still haven't played most of them, FWIW. At higher prices, I wouldn't have bought them, either.

    82. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I no longer buy from Amazon. I prefer physical books to ebooks. I buy physical books. I don't and won't buy ebooks. Simple as that, at least for me.

    83. Re:Disengenous by stdarg · · Score: 1

      With physical books that take up shelf space, sure that's a concern. With electronic books, why would Amazon NOT carry a book? They carry all kinds of stuff right now, publisher disagreements excepted, including really funny self-published books. I read a funny article about the "monster erotica" cottage industry that is rapidly growing and profitable thanks to Amazon. Even with fierce competition between dozens of national bookstores, or hundreds of mom and pop bookstores, I would be pretty surprised to see them carrying a physical copy of "Taken by the Pterodactyl" (http://www.amazon.com/Taken-Pterodactyl-Dinosaur-Erotica-Christie-ebook/dp/B00FI9JE00)

    84. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    85. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Way to sneak in that misogyny at the end.

    86. Re:Disengenous by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter whether it is good. Sometimes stopping something bad is worse - an example is alcohol and the worse effects of prohibition.

      Alcohol gives nothing indispensible, and if alcoholic drinks were not invented, it arguably wouldn't have been an impediment to society. But once alcohol is invented, prohibition typically has an even worse effect.

      Suppose alcoholic drinks were being invented today, one might ask whether it is a good invention, and arguably get a truthful answer in "no". But that answer doesn't matter. Similarly, information might not want to be free or want anything at all being inanimate, but technology is at such a stage where preventing copying entails unacceptable surveilance.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    87. Re:Disengenous by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      Nothing speaks to the few big guys driving out the small guys with variety more than hardware stores. Need a 3/4" to 1/2" barbed brass plumbing adapter? Forget it. It's not used in new construction or renovations, so they don't have it. But they have 50 different kinds of drills. I have two, a cordless and a hammer drill, and may never need another. Also, they tend to carry fewer brands that cover more items, even though the best maker of each item is different. Too bad. The makers that remain profitable are thusly the ones who expand their line until they're no longer very good at any one thing.

    88. Re:Disengenous by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      http://www.npr.org/blogs/money...

      According to some of the people interviewed for this NPR piece, some authors are indeed making more through Amazon. So despite Amazon making what appears to be an inordinate margin for simple digital distribution, it might still be better deal for authors than going through traditional publishers who take a larger margin, and spend significantly more overhead to support the older physical distribution model.

    89. Re:Disengenous by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      An interesting case is Costco. They push suppliers hard, but they also concentrate on quality. In some areas, this works well. However, their definition of quality isn't everyone's. Quality to me means food with no transfat (not "0%", which is often a lie allowed by the FDA). Their idea is what the majority wants—that which tastes good. With only big box stores, there's no one to sell to the minority with different needs.

    90. Re:Disengenous by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      Do you have a good source for obscure plumbing adapters? The best I've seen have been crazy expensive off amazon.

      Also, looking for obscure plastic adapters to run small (3/16-5/16) hoses for projects.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    91. Re:Disengenous by DriveDog · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of argument for more sellers. Fewer is almost always bad for consumers in the long run. But here's something else. Amazon won't sell some things for fear of attacks from special interest groups. Suppose you want to read something shunned by many. No other outlets but Amazon? Too bad. On the other hand, a small seller based in a garage in L.A. isn't going to give a flip about a special interest group in Texas.

    92. Re:Disengenous by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      . With the ebook you get a ... license to read the book but only in the format you purchased your license for.

      This applies equally to physical books.

      With a real book, you own a copy. Full stop. You can resell it. You can loan it. You cannot make more copies (except under fair use)... maybe an archival/backup (Check your local laws). But it's your property.

      Copyright covers the rights to reproduce a work. Not to control what happens once a work has been (legally) reproduced and sold.

      With digital copies, some asshole convinced some judge that to be used it has to be copied from memory to RAM, so digital works come wrapped in a license that allows just that.

      Mandatory disclaimer: IANAL

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    93. Re:Disengenous by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      That was much more eloquent and phrased far better than my original post -- but exactly the point I was trying to make.

    94. Re:Disengenous by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I prefer paper books.
      1) cheaper,
      2) used availability drives down prices on secondary market. I can pickup cheap books at thrift stores/library sales. No used ebooks.
      3) leave a book in my hot car trunk for one year, fine.
      4) read book at beach with sand and salt spray and no power: fine.
      5) destroy my book. Oh well. whoop de doo.
      6)I can underline/mark it up and pass it on easily to a friend without any need for expensive hardware.
      7) twenty/thirty/fifty years from now, I have no doubt MY copy of the book, marked up and noted, will still exist if I wish it to, in a readable format.
      They do the job.

    95. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 2

      Because I rather like having vibrant communities sprinkled with local businesses - places where people go and interact - and a local economy not predicated solely on the whims of the Fortune 500

      Ah, so you want a theme park for your entertainment, That's great (really, I like that too), but don't ask for it at the expense of people barely scraping by. High-end goods will always have sellers with a more personal touch. But you'll have to pay more for that inefficiency. If you can afford that luxury, great! But keep in mind that others can't.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    96. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no? At least, it is for me.

      There's a lot of people who would disagree; like shoppers in the UK last year who bought supermarket ready meals only to later discover that they contained horse meat instead of beef or pork.

      Seems like we agree. Those buyers didn't find what they wanted. That's also why it's important that there are 3 or more.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    97. Re:Disengenous by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't know that business. Maybe Amazon adds no value there and is trying to charge 30% for nothing? But then, the current big 6 publishers won't need them and will just sell their eBooks directly to the customer, right? I rather suspect it won't play out that way, because Amazon is bringing something to the table here. (But what markup? They're dropping the price ceiling in TFA, not raising it.)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    98. Re:Disengenous by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      That's hard to guess, but I've read free fan fiction that rivaled the best published novels. I've read paid novels that were as bad as some slashdot posts (I imagine they must have been self-published). And I've read plenty of mediocre works on both the hobby and professional sides.

      I doubt doing something part time means that is is by definition worse, I'd more likely guess it's slower. So we might get less books each year.

      Is that a problem though?

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    99. Re:Disengenous by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      Plus, the Steam Sale aspect adds some urgency. If I knew that game X was always $2.99, I might never buy it. But If I think I might like to play it, and I know that after this weekend it will be $20 (the price where I would really think about if I wanted the game) but it's on sale for $4.50 this weekend, I'll buy it now *just in case* I might want to play it later.

      This is really good for the seller I imagine - they just need a hook on the store that makes me think I might ever want to play the game. So it's also the sale aspect (as I think JC Penny found out with their attempt at "Always low prices").

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    100. Re:Disengenous by swillden · · Score: 1

      Have you actually shopped at Amazon? Amazon offers the first couple chapters of all their books for free.

      Cool. I hadn't noticed that feature.

      So there really is no advantage to browsing in physical stores.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    101. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Kind of like the android marketplace. Far more revenue, far less per average developer.

    102. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I don't get the love of Wal-mart. But...but....cheaper! Does anyone actually LOOK at the crap they sell?

    103. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Then the author takes the financial risk, which is what publishers currently do. Chances are, it would seriously limit the number of books written by the good authors.

    104. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Please preserve me from you're IdiotNation.

    105. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      He doesn't give a fuck. Didn't you notice the part where he doesn't READ books?

    106. Re:Disengenous by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Advances are hardly 'fringe' benefits.

    107. Re:Disengenous by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      I do wonder how long this might last, though.
      Say you marked everythign down to $5. People used to $20 snap them up as a bargain. However, at some point they may say "Hey, I've already got more than enough of these, I don't need anymore", and profits drop.

    108. Re:Disengenous by breeze95 · · Score: 1

      Since when is a license to read an eBook revocable?

      In 2009, Amazon Amazon erased Orwell books From Kindle devices. (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html?_r=0). If you ever used Amazon Kindle app for iOS or Android you will noticed how easy it is for Amazon to remove books from the devices.

    109. Re:Disengenous by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget don't read books doesn't equate with not reading. My phone has a bunch of public domain books and I still have hundreds of paper backs and text books that I just can't seem to part with but I am just not buying any more books. The whole idea of books being shipped about the place, stored in warehouses and held on retail shelves seems wrong in today's age. Localised production seems to still have a place, you enter a shop front and they print and bind the book for you while you wait or order it online with local delivery. I don't stop to read books in the dead tree variety more because I don't have the time with other activities consuming all mine spare time and none left to lose myself in a paper back and when it comes to manuals et al I prefer to multi-task access them online.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    110. Re:Disengenous by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      how do I know if the book I'm looking at to buy was edited by these qualified people, or by the author himself, who did a crappy job, or something in between?

      You click on "reviews".

    111. Re:Disengenous by Jahta · · Score: 1

      If you can find what you want, then it's just about price, no? At least, it is for me.

      There's a lot of people who would disagree; like shoppers in the UK last year who bought supermarket ready meals only to later discover that they contained horse meat instead of beef or pork.

      Seems like we agree. Those buyers didn't find what they wanted. That's also why it's important that there are 3 or more.

      Eh, no. You seem to have missed the point. Those buyers got something they definitely *did not* want as a result of aggressive price cutting by the retailers. The mantra of "cheaper is always better for the consumer" is simply not true.

    112. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. So far I found pretty much what you did.

    113. Re:Disengenous by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Technical books are different, but anything that busts the current obscene textbook scam is a win for society, hands down.

      Textbooks generally aren't available as e-Books. If they are, they are not going to be $9.99... however. They may split up the 25 chapters, and sell each one as a $10 eBook, however.

      Then sell the Appendices as a separate $10 book, and each chapter's homework assignments as a $10 eBook, then a $10 eBook for each chapter's answer key.

    114. Re:Disengenous by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And according to which law should that be legal?
      Luckily I don't use a kindle nor the kindle app but only buy ePub :)
      Thanx for the info!

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    115. Re:Disengenous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please use paragraphs in the future. Your post is very hard on the eyes.

    116. Re:Disengenous by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Provided also that the new market entrants can come up with a convenient way for their customers to put their eBooks on a Kindle, since if everybody is buying their eBooks from Amazon all the e-Ink readers will be Kindles.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    117. Re:Disengenous by nephilimsd · · Score: 1

      I find value in the practices that companies employ, and not just in the prices that their goods are sold. For example, WalMart has a policy of subsidizing payroll dollars with tax dollars (http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/). Therefore, I choose not to shop at WalMart. Furthermore, because I find this practice particularly egregious, I encourage other people not to shop there. If all of my choices were limited to three companies that engage in similar practices (or at best, one that doesn't), then the market isn't actually competitive. What you have is an oligopoly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly).

  3. ballsy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "publishers ... have a legitimate reason for not wanting the gulf between eBook and physical hardcover pricing to be so large that brick and mortar retailers suffer"
    So basically coming right out and saying that publishers are trying to protect a dying business model. Color me unsympathetic.

  4. some more data would be nice by Trepidity · · Score: 2

    A distribution of the expected returns would be more useful than the mean expected return, which can be dominated by a handful of best-selling titles.

    1. Re:some more data would be nice by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      This is an artful example of writing for your audience. You are not their audience, and people who know about such things are not their audience.

      They are writing directly to the Hachette fans, and indirectly to the Hachette authors. People who prefer to write for a living, or even read for a living in many cases. Not for the quants in the bookkeeping department of Hachette.

      So no, it would not be more useful to have a distribution. It would confuse the audience. More meaningful certainly, I only take issue with the word "useful", since from several perspectives it would be harmful to do so.

  5. Mark Down as Anonymous Troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, Scalzi can argue whatever he wants, but I sure wouldn't pay more than $9.99 for one of his books. Amazon really can make money for writers as well as Amazon. If you've ever dealt with publishers, you might want to find a way to cut them out as well.
     
    The future of literature does not involve paper, unless the reader wants the frivolous expense of printing. Likewise, editing will no doubt be AI assisted before too long.

    1. Re:Mark Down as Anonymous Troll... by rochrist · · Score: 1

      So you can wait for the price drop and not whine when you don't get it the first day. I'm sure Scalzi will be crushed.

  6. Bricks and Mortar? by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

    Come on. Nobody buys reading material from shops any more. The only bookshops which remain in my city sell junk. But I don't like the idea of buying everything through Amazon either.

    1. Re:Bricks and Mortar? by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      Come to Portland, experience Powell's Books.

    2. Re:Bricks and Mortar? by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Come to Portland, experience Powell's Books.

      Why? What does it give me that Amazon (and the rest of the Internet) doesn't?

      I used to spend a lot of time in bookstores, and would almost always go into a bookstore in whatever town I was visiting. Today, I never go into a bookstore, because I guarantee you I have a much better chance of finding the book I want at Amazon, and will almost never pay more for the privilege.

      Most of my hunting for books was for hardcovers, because they last longer. I would also search for obscure older books in whatever format I could get. With eBooks as an option (which last even longer than hardcover), plus the vast number of 3rd-party sellers at Amazon, I can find whatever I want. On the rare occasion that Amazon doesn't have what I want, I can try ABE, which is like being able to walk into every independent bookstore in the world at the same time and look for my book.

      Powell's Books might be a fine bookstore, but it's unlikely they have a few million easily searchable volumes, sometimes with hundreds of copies of each book (and with each copy trying to price itself competitively against the others). Then, too, one of the things I always hated about bookstores was trying to figure out where they might put a book...is it science fiction, horror, fantasy...and why do "bestsellers" often get their own section, even though the books there are from all genres.

    3. Re:Bricks and Mortar? by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      Powell's Books is quite searchable, they have quite a lot of books, and they have lots of old and rare volumes that are likely to be hard to find elsewhere. They also have a rather nice store that one can visit and simply browse, on the off chance that they don't actually know precisely what they want going in, and want the opportunity to see what is available on the shelves or to communicate with the knowledgable staff. Of course, the original point was that people still go to physical bookstores for whatever reason, not that you should go to a particular physical bookstore.

    4. Re:Bricks and Mortar? by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Powell's Books is quite searchable, they have quite a lot of books, and they have lots of old and rare volumes that are likely to be hard to find elsewhere.

      The website is actually quite poorly searchable, as an exact author name of a somewhat obscure author (James Elliott) doesn't hit a match until the 17th result. In addition, none of the books by that author that aren't actually available as physical books are listed. Amazon has similar problems in the first way (although the 2nd result is a match for a different author with the same name), but not in the second. Even if it isn't available anywhere, if Amazon ever sold it, it's in their catalog.

      As for "hard to find elsewhere", I pretty much guarantee you that anything they have will have 10x the listings on ABE.

      They also have a rather nice store that one can visit and simply browse, on the off chance that they don't actually know precisely what they want going in, and want the opportunity to see what is available on the shelves or to communicate with the knowledgable staff.

      Once suggestion engines got going well, "browsing" in a bookstore pretty much went away. Wandering up and down the aisles looking for a title that sounds interesting or a book cover that grabs attention is pretty much guaranteed to cost you a lot more time and result in less success than using Amazon, etc., to do the same thing. I understand that some people like to do this, but some people also just like to walk around the mall looking for "something to buy".

      As for the "knowledgeable staff", if a book isn't in their catalog, I'm pretty sure they would give the same blank stares as every place else for anything outside their comfort zone.

  7. Um, what does the publisher do? by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    Maybe the agreement should be 70% (seems low anyway, BT is free!) for the Author and Publisher and 30% for Amazon (so when it's inevitably decided publishers aren't vital in Ebooks we don't have to go through this again!).

    1. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by tlhIngan · · Score: 3, Informative

      Maybe the agreement should be 70% (seems low anyway, BT is free!) for the Author and Publisher and 30% for Amazon (so when it's inevitably decided publishers aren't vital in Ebooks we don't have to go through this again!).

      That was the agreement - 30% to Amazon, and right now, 35%-35% split for authors/publishers.

      And no, publishers do a lot - the author's main job is to deliver a manuscript. Just a block of text.

      it's the publishers job to take that block of text, add the necessary front and back matter (Tables of Contents, Indices, cover art, author bio, etc), then also format that block of text for print and electronic publishing (not as easy as it seems - authors can often have their own interpretations of how to format text), and also link in images and such. Oh yeah, and market it - because otherwise your book is just one amongst the thousands appearing daily. And maybe do a bit of editing on the side.

      It's very rare that a self-published book is actually any good - most are just crap (because the author kept getting rejected), and spelling mistakes galore. You really wonder if the author is even literate at all.

      Sure there are a few good examples and there are publishers that do get out of the way and let you do it all (and some very good examples), but those are the exception, not the rule.

      Hell, you could even consider a publisher's job to help wade through the millions of crap manuscripts submitted daily to find the good works and reduce it down to thousands that have a chance of making money.

    2. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      That was the agreement - 30% to Amazon, and right now, 35%-35% split for authors/publishers.

      Ha-ha. You actually think that publishers split their royalties 50:50 with authors?

      For Stephen King, perhaps. For Joe Newbie, it's typically 75% to the publisher, and 25% to the guy who actually wrote the damn book, who then has to pay 15% of that 25% to his agent.

      Most writers would earn a lot more with a part-time job flipping burgers than from writing a book.

    3. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by geekd · · Score: 2

      There a plenty of great self published author on Amazon.

      Laurence Dahners
      Nathan Lowell
      Elliott Kay
      Christopher Nuttall

      that's just off the top of my head.

    4. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by McKing · · Score: 1

      Hugh Howey. If you want to follow this from the author's perspective, try reading his blog. http://www.hughhowey.com/

      --
      If only "common" sense was actually that common...
    5. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by Kartu · · Score: 1

      I'm not buying your "publishers do a lot", sorry.
      Formatting "just a block of text" is still such a bid deal today?
      And... spelling mistakes... seriously?

      Marketing might be expensive, but I doubt majority of the authors will get any of it.
      Without marketing, what you've described is a service worth 10-50$ a page.

    6. Re:Um, what does the publisher do? by rochrist · · Score: 1

      They do more than he described. Try this: http://www.antipope.org/charli...

  8. Economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But as a business entity whose sole performance is based on sales, they are only working for their best interest. If someone could gather data on how many new authors come onto the market as a result of writing being a viable concern then maybe a case of declining authors might be an interesting talking point.

  9. Just like Vinyl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Paper books are obsolete, they're just a novelty.

  10. Maybe the author needs to get out more by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No dude, your books are not so incredible that people will buy them no matter what the price. There may be a few people who are like that, but most aren't. Price matters in entertainment. Turns out, when you make something cheap enough so that people don't need to think about spending the money and even more so they feel like they are getting a "Great deal" they'll spend very freely.

    Steam has figured this out with videogames and siphons tons of money out of people's pockets, and has people thank them for doing it. People get drawn in by the "savings" of the sales and spend tons. I should know, I'm one of them. Not only do I have games I haven't played, I have games I haven't installed. I see something that I'm interested in that is a good price and I say "Oh man, I should get that," and I do. If they are more expensive, I think about it more, I wait until I really want a new game, I go and replay something I already enjoy.

    Cheaper books will lead to bibliophiles just collecting the things. I know my mom would. You get them cheap enough and she'll drop hundreds a month on stuff she'll never read, just because she wants to have it.

    Authors/publishers/developers/etc need to get over this idea of their digital goods being "worth" a certain amount. No, you need to figure out what you need to do to maximize your profits since there is zero per unit cost. Usually, that is going to mean selling cheap, but selling lots.

    1. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fail to see any point to your diatribe, if I want to buy books, and I can get the e-book cheaper than the real book, if it's something I really want, I'll still buy the real book.

      If it's something that is in passing, and may only want to read it once, then hell, I'll get the ebook, read through it, maybe finish it, maybe not - but I won't spend anywhere near the cost of a real book on an ebook because there is NO substance to the ebook.

      It's amazing to me that the publishers are given anything for ebook sales, as all they've done is for the physical book, the typesetting, formatting, etc - all for the physical book.

      The authors need to have 2 sets of rights - material copyright, with limited resale license to the publisher and digital copyright, which they retain to allow them to publish as they see fit.

      Why should any publisher make a fucking dime off of something they have ZERO investment in. Remember, 100% of their investment is for the "physical" book form. They never once negotiated for the digital rights and to let them claim them without a fight means that the authors that do allow them to are fucking retarded.

    2. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/what-amazon-didnt-say-in-its-blog-post-about-hachette

      But, we can see another "race to the bottom" that netbooks made..... where are they now ?

      Hell TV is another race to the bottom , so now quality TV is almost dead. "Reality TV" (i.e. rubbish) is king as far as the Chiefs are concerned because it is cheap to spew out week after week.

    3. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by hey! · · Score: 2

      No dude, your books are not so incredible that people will buy them no matter what the price.

      Nobody's book is so incredible that people would buy them no matter what the price. If my only way to get Shakespeare was to pay a ten thousand dollar license fee I'd find a way to do without.

      Authors/publishers/developers/etc need to get over this idea of their digital goods being "worth" a certain amount. No, you need to figure out what you need to do to maximize your profits since there is zero per unit cost. Usually, that is going to mean selling cheap, but selling lots.

      You really shouldn't assume that anyone who disagrees with you does so because they're stupid. Publishers know their marginal and fixed costs and certainly have a pretty good idea of the price elasticity of their books. The situation is more complicated than you know.

      You can't compare Hachette to Valve, because Valve owns the whole Steam ecosystem, and delivers its services to users' commodity PC hardware with no intermediaries (other than Internet service). In the case of Hachette v. Amazon, we're looking at a situation where Amazon owns the point of sale, and has more control over the users' devices than the user himself has. And yes, you can read ebooks on a PC but few people will want to do that. And yes you can download ebooks in non-proprietary formats like epub from sources other than Amazon, convert the format to .mobi, and use file transfer to move the converted file onto the kindle; but that's a significant barrier for most people.

      So what we're looking at is a move by Amazon to take control of the book market in a way it cannot as long as paperback and hardback sales remain strong. Amazon *looks* like a friend of the consumer because they're calling for lower prices. If they get what they want, then ebooks may well make a significant market share headway against paper books.

      You might think that's fine, but it's not *generic* formats and *commodity* hardware we're talking about. It's formats and hardware controlled by an inextricably linked to *one* company. And that may mean lower prices today, but what will it mean ten years down the pike when Amazon corners the market on books?

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are 100% incorrect that there is a zero cost per unit. No matter what.

      Look up "opportunity cost" for a lesson.

    5. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      No dude, your books are not so incredible that people will buy them no matter what the price. There may be a few people who are like that, but most aren't. Price matters in entertainment.

      Per hour, books are pretty cheap. The idea that I'm going to devote, what, 10 (randomly chosen) hours of my life to something I'm not going to pay some premium for quality is crazy.

      Premiums differ. Hell, descriptions of quality differ.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    6. Re:Maybe the author needs to get out more by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

      Most logical people will buy things they might normally pass on if the price is cheap enough. However, at some point, as I have with Steam, you eventually ask: "Why should I buy any more when I haven't finished the stuff I've got?" As a result, I haven't bought a game off steam in at least a year. I have a stack of unplayed ones I'm working through.

  11. Amazon is right by vanyel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In particular, I won't pay more for an ebook than the price of a paperback, but I also generally have $10 as the cutoff point - if it's more than that, I'll read something else until the price comes down. I really think ebooks ought to be $5 but that ship has sailed.

    1. Re:Amazon is right by Daemonik · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I also refuse to pay $9.99 for an eBook copy of a book that has been out of print for 30 years. There are numerous scifi & fantasy books being re-released lately at this absurd price scale and it's ridiculous.

    2. Re:Amazon is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its the same with hotels really.

      The ONLY additional cost for a hotel room being used is about $10 for cleaning. They pay the same rates, insurance, etc etc etc if it is used or empty.

      Therefore I should be able to pay $11 for any room in a hotel and they are making money.

    3. Re:Amazon is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In particular, I won't pay more for an ebook than the price of a paperback, but I also generally have $10 as the cutoff point - if it's more than that, I'll read something else until the price comes down. I really think ebooks ought to be $5 but that ship has sailed.

      what do you mean the ship has sailed? Did something happen to make $5 ebooks impossible, now and in the future?

    4. Re:Amazon is right by McKing · · Score: 2

      That's Amazon's whole point. They have the data that shows that $9.99 is pretty much the sweet spot for "major label" authors, and 5.99-7.99 for all other authors. Publishers would make a lot more money if they priced the ebook at $9.99, but they have to protect their print sales so they generally price the ebook at $14.99 so that the $12.99 paperback looks attractive.

      The other forgotten point in this discussion is that traditional publishing houses "cannabalize" their back catalogs and stop printing older paperbacks when they go out of print in order to promote their newer authors and/or new "bestsellers". Ebooks never need to go out of print so it doesn't make sense to do that, but they do it anyway. They drop a book for a while, and then reprint it right when the royalty deals with the author expires, extending the deal and their "ownership" of the copyright. It's pretty shady stuff.

      Read it from the indie author's view: http://www.hughhowey.com/

      --
      If only "common" sense was actually that common...
    5. Re:Amazon is right by mpe · · Score: 1

      The other forgotten point in this discussion is that traditional publishing houses "cannabalize" their back catalogs and stop printing older paperbacks when they go out of print in order to promote their newer authors and/or new "bestsellers"

      You see similar behaviour with publishers of other media. Another reason is to drive up demand for something which is "out of print".
      The most notorious example being the "Disney Vault".
      If anything it works the least wel for books because of lending libraries, which are outside of the publishers control.

      They drop a book for a while, and then reprint it right when the royalty deals with the author expires, extending the deal and their "ownership" of the copyright. It's pretty shady stuff.

      Extending copyright would require changing the work in some way. Which is also possibly easier for the movie and music industries. Where a "director's cut" or "remix" might be easy to create.

    6. Re:Amazon is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes to back Amazon's data up with another anecdote which it doesn't need:

      If there is a book I'd like to read at 9.99 I'll buy the ebook convenience of immediately delivery and availability on whatever device i have in front of me, once the price is in the 2nd digits I'll take the trouble to borrow the book from the library.

    7. Re:Amazon is right by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      I also refuse to pay $9.99 for an eBook copy of a book that has been out of print for 30 years. There are numerous scifi & fantasy books being re-released lately at this absurd price scale and it's ridiculous.

      Absolutely true. Assuming you don't circumvent the eBook DRM, both eBooks and physical books have there advantages and disadvantages. If you just want to read the book, a "very good" used paperback from Amazon will do the job as well as anything else.

      So, the eBook shouldn't cost any more than the least expensive physical book that is at least "very good" used.

  12. Corporate lies! by sgt+scrub · · Score: 1

    They argue that capping most ebooks at $9.99 would be better for everyone, with the money split out 35% to the author, 35% to the publisher, and 30% to Amazon.

    That couldn't possibly be true. Authors never get a 50:50 split with a publisher.

    --
    Having to work for a living is the root of all evil.
    1. Re:Corporate lies! by Z34107 · · Score: 2

      It's almost like Amazon is aware of that:

      While we believe 35% should go to the author and 35% to Hachette, the way this would actually work is that we would send 70% of the total revenue to Hachette, and they would decide how much to share with the author. We believe Hachette is sharing too small a portion with the author today, but ultimately that is not our call.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    2. Re:Corporate lies! by ohieaux · · Score: 2

      Seems like Amazon might be fishing for authors to self publish and take the 70% of the $9.99. I'm sure Amazon would be glad to take a few extra percent to proof, layout and market the ebook for an author.

      --
      Where all think alike, no one thinks very much.
    3. Re:Corporate lies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So wait let me see if I get this right.

      The Author spends a lot of time researching and writing the book and get 35%

      The publisher spends a lot of time editing the book , typesetting the book, managing the authors, paying royalties etc and gets 35%

      Amazon employes minimum wage slaves doing unskilled work and expect to basically get the same as the skilled people while doing nothing ?

      Perhaps they could boost the writer/publisher income to 95% by only taking 5% , their share of the value of the sale.

    4. Re:Corporate lies! by McKing · · Score: 2

      Amazon works very well for self-published authors. A lot of them went the traditional route and went self-published and made a crap-ton more money as self-published as they ever did, plus they retain the ownership of their own works. http://www.hughhowey.com/

      --
      If only "common" sense was actually that common...
    5. Re:Corporate lies! by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      So create your own e-book and associated infrastructure.

  13. How about $5 and 100% to the author? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    enough said

  14. Equally suspect by Z34107 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Even if you don't have a background in economics, nothing in Amazon's statement should be particularly controversial. Price elasticity isn't something they pulled out of their ass, and the idea that lowering prices could make you more money (by selling even more units) is something the thinking slashdotter should be able to intuit form first principles. "Books aren't perfectly interchangeable units of entertainment" is a nice straw man, but it doesn't change the fact that entertainment spending is highly discretionary, or that his $20 e-book has an entire universe of competing alternatives vying for your attention.

    Yes, publishers and middlemen have all kinds of rationalizations for trying to kill e-books, but calling any of them "legitimate" is shilling so hard you could pence a crown.

    --
    DATABASE WOW WOW
    1. Re:Equally suspect by Jodka · · Score: 2

      ...the idea that lowering prices could make you more money (by selling even more units) is something the thinking slashdotter should be able to intuit form first principles.

      Or from ever having posted an eBay auction with a large reserve price which then closed with no bids.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    2. Re:Equally suspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same applies to Cellphones.
      And yet Apple takes about 90% of the profits.

      Selling at a loss and making up for it in volume does not seem to have worked for all the other phone manufacturers. And Apple is selling at a premium.

      So will reducing a price of a book make any difference to what I read. NO.

      In REAL terms, have books dropped in price over the last 20 years, hell yes.

      This is all about Amazon trying to kill off ALL competition, at which point the jack up prices. Even better if they kill off publishers so Amazon gets 65% of the revenue and the author gets 35%

    3. Re:Equally suspect by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      but calling any of them "legitimate" is shilling so hard you could pence a crown.

      I'm trying to figure out the source of the expression "pence a crown" (old British money, obviously, but I'm missing something), and wondering whether the use of "shilling" earlier in the sentence was an intentional or unintentional play on words re:"pence a crown"....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    4. Re:Equally suspect by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Exactly! Or from seeing Valve's success with their Steam sales, or Apple's success with lower iTunes prices, or from any other number of things obvious to you and I and everyone but John Scalzi.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    5. Re:Equally suspect by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      Unlike price elasticity, autorectogenesis is entirely responsible for that tortured non-expression and the verbification of "pence." Idea was that there hasn't been that much shilling since before decimalization.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    6. Re:Equally suspect by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      John Scalzi isn't selling iPhones; he's selling e-books. Those actually do earn more profit--for everyone involved--when they don't cost more than a hardcover.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    7. Re:Equally suspect by mcl630 · · Score: 1

      The same applies to Cellphones.
      And yet Apple takes about 90% of the profits.

      Selling at a loss and making up for it in volume does not seem to have worked for all the other phone manufacturers. And Apple is selling at a premium.

      Tell that to Samsung... they're doing just fine. And LG, and Motorola, and Lenovo, etc... Only HTC is hurting, and even they just turned a profit for the first time in awhile.

    8. Re:Equally suspect by taustin · · Score: 2

      Scalzi is right that (entertainment) books are not necessarily interchangeable. If one wants the latest Stephen King novel, and it is too expensive, one may very well not be willing to substitute another author.

      HIs error is in thinking (or at least implying, I think he knows this) that no other form of entertainment will substitute equally well for a book. If I can't afford the latest King novel, maybe I'll watch TV instead, and spend the $9.99 on some beer.

      People who have enough of a passion for books to become professionals in the industry often do not understand just how little they mean to most of their customers, when it really comes down to it. Books may not be fungible by author, but entertainment overall is.

    9. Re:Equally suspect by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Yup. Someone at Amazon went to Econ 101. I'm kind of surprised that everyone is treating this as some sort of business epiphany.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    10. Re:Equally suspect by hey! · · Score: 1

      Yes, publishers and middlemen have all kinds of rationalizations for trying to kill e-books, but calling any of them "legitimate" is shilling so hard you could pence a crown.

      All the arguments based on classical economic theory only work if the assumptions of classical economics hold, particularly the assumption that there is a free market.

      Amazon is arguing for its freedom to set prices it charges in its ebook store; that would be no concern of the publishers if we lived in a world where ebook users could simply buy books in non-proprietary formats from any Internet storefront they wanted. But we don't live in such a world. We live in a world where most ebook readers are controlled by Amazon and inextricably linked to its store. It wouldn't have been hard for Amazon to build the Kindle that way. Define some public book trading protocols, bootstrap the standard by building those protocols into the Kindle and Amazon's online store, and instantly the world is a better place for everyone except printers and bricks-and-mortar bookstores with no Internet presence. But Amazon didn't do that, because the Kindle is designed to tie the user to Amazon, the way the iPad is designed to tie the user to Apple.

      So what we're looking at is a maneuver by Amazon to corner the market on books *in general* by killing off the traditional paper book trade. Preserving the ability to buy most books from someone other than Amazon seems like a legitimate reason to me.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    11. Re:Equally suspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Price elasticities are the right way to analyse this but Amazon do make one logical leap that does not follow.

      Amazon gives evidence/numbers for 'micro' price elasticities: how much the sales of an individual book change when they change the price. But their conclusion is based on a 'macro' price elasticities: how much the sales of all books will change when they change the price of all books. The difference between a single book and all books is important. The 'micro' elasticities depend on the price of all the other books not changing. As soon as you change the price of all the books at once this breaks down.

      The micro elasticities are a good starting point, and probably the best available evidence. But it is by no means case closed.

    12. Re:Equally suspect by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      [...] Apple's success with lower iTunes prices [...]

      When iTunes first came out, of course, their prices were cheaper. You could usually get the whole CD for $9.99.

      The interesting thing is that when Apple allowed the music companies to set the price to $1.29, the companies that did so made more money. While some people were not going to pay $1.29 for a song, there were plenty of others who said, "Yeah, okay."

      Again, the whole, "lower prices mean more money" is not always true. By that logic, selling something for $0.00 would give you an infinite amount of money. Obviously that's not true.

      What's interesting with digital items, of course, is that the cost of what you're selling is low. It costs money to print a book and ship it stores. It costs significantly less money to ship bits of data to a customer. So those cost-savings can be passed on to the consumer. However, other costs--like actually generating the content--haven't necessarily gone down.

    13. Re:Equally suspect by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      People who have enough of a passion for books to become professionals in the industry often do not understand just how little they mean to most of their customers, when it really comes down to it. Books may not be fungible by author, but entertainment overall is.

      The question is -- why do you think Amazon needs to force these prices, then? If publishers are charging too much, people won't buy, and the publishers go out of business, making room for those with better pricing.

      On the other hand, what if customers are willing to pay the extra $5 or $10 or $50 for a particular book? If the publisher is okay making money at the prices it selects, why do we need Amazon to intervene in the free market?

      Suppose you were trying to find a new job as a programmer. You go to a headhunter. You say you want at least $50/hour. The headhunter says, "Sorry, you can only charge $10/hour. No programmer is worth more than that. We did surveys and discovered that companies would ship labor to India and pay $10/hour for random programmers there, rather than pay more."

      You object, and say that you want the headhunter to look for jobs on your terms. You have 20 years of experience, managed large project teams, and are personally responsible for the core code in some popular mathematical analysis package. Also, you don't live in a small village in India, you live in the middle of Manhattan and need a higher salary to live. "Doesn't matter," comes the reply, "No programmer is worth more than $10/hour."

      Now imagine that headhunter is responsible for finding most people in the world their jobs. It doesn't matter who you are... but you're not allowed to charge more than $10/hour. It doesn't matter if your training and education would require you to make at least $20/hour or $50/hour or whatever to recoup those costs over a lifetime... it doesn't matter if you're actually better and the companies might be willing to pay $75/hour for you, if they could only find you. All that matter is the headhunter with the database monopoly on candidates says you can't get a salary of more than $10/hour.

      You really think that system would lead to better quality work or give incentive for high quality work? You really think we should let the headhunter decide how you're allowed to market yourself? If you ask too much, you simply won't get a job. For books, why not let publishers choose? If they overcharge, the market will fix it... I can't understand why people want to defend Amazon's greedy monopolistic bullying.

    14. Re:Equally suspect by taustin · · Score: 2

      The question is -- why do you think Amazon needs to force these prices, then? If publishers are charging too much, people won't buy, and the publishers go out of business, making room for those with better pricing.

      Amazon wants lower retails because they believe that Amazon will make more money that way. What effect that has on publisher or on authors is of concern to them only in how it affect how much money Amazon makes.

      The publishers want higher retails because they believe that the publishers will make more money that way. What effect that has on Amazon or on authors is of concern to them only in how it affect how much money the publishers make.

      The authors side with whichever side they believe will make the authors more money, and that is mixed. Those who are well established in the traditional industry, like Scalzi, quite naturally side with the traditional industry. Those who have done well self publishing through Amazon quite naturally side with Amazon. Neither side, by and large, really care how well the publishers or Amazon does, except in how it affect how much money the authors make.

      This is called "engaging in business," and it hasn't change in hundreds of years.

    15. Re:Equally suspect by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      The interesting thing is that when Apple allowed the music companies to set the price to $1.29, the companies that did so made more money. While some people were not going to pay $1.29 for a song, there were plenty of others who said, "Yeah, okay."

      I think the difference is that for $0.30 more you get "what you want", and it's far less than buying the whole album (which many people still remember as the only way to get music).

      For books, though, most people who read are willing to read any format if they just want to read the book. So, when an eBook costs more than some other format, then the price needs to be lowered. Since used physical books are still very readable, those need to be considered as well when determining what the market will bear.

      For me, this means I haven't paid more than $3.00 for any eBook yet. When Amazon had sales similar to Steam's big ones, I spent hundreds of dollars, and haven't come close to reading all the books yet. Unlike physical books, I can buy for later with no real penalty (storage space for eBooks is essentially free with books averaging 1MB each).

    16. Re:Equally suspect by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Scalzi is right that (entertainment) books are not necessarily interchangeable. If one wants the latest Stephen King novel, and it is too expensive, one may very well not be willing to substitute another author.

      The other issue is that books have historically always been available for free for many people (libraries) and very cheaply for many other people (used book stores).

      If I have 27 books on my reading list, and the latest Stephen King novel is too expensive today and my local library has a waiting list, then I can read any of the other 26 books in the meantime.

    17. Re:Equally suspect by Gryle · · Score: 1

      The question is -- why do you think Amazon needs to force these prices, then? If publishers are charging too much, people won't buy, and the publishers go out of business, making room for those with better pricing.

      On the other hand, what if customers are willing to pay the extra $5 or $10 or $50 for a particular book? If the publisher is okay making money at the prices it selects, why do we need Amazon to intervene in the free market?

      Amazon is striking back after the price-fixing business between Apple and the Big 5 that was intended to break Amazon's dominance in the e-book market.

      --
      Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not entirely sure about the universe - Einstein
    18. Re:Equally suspect by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Scalzi wasn't arguing that he wouldn't make more money off Amazon eBooks if they were priced lower, but that he thought he'd make less money overall. If Amazon eBooks are the only way to sell books (which is not something I want), then Amazon and Scalzi would benefit most from the same pricing scheme. Scalzi presumably makes money off sales of physical books.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    19. Re:Equally suspect by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, the price to produce a physical book and get it to me isn't really all that much, so it doesn't matter that much in the decision to sell for $15 or $10. It does mean that the minimum profitable price will be much lower. Barnes & Noble sell Nook eBooks of various public domain books for something like $2, and they simply couldn't afford to do that with paper books.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    20. Re:Equally suspect by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Your example doesn't work. I'm willing to give about 40 hours/week to an employer, and so my labor supply is limited. It may be that I can sell 40 hours a week at $50/hour and 160 at $40/hour, but it simply doesn't work that way.

      We're talking eBooks here, which have production costs of approximately zero. This means that I'm not limited to selling 40 books a week, I can sell as many as I can get people to buy. If I find I can sell a hundred times as many at $10 than at $50, and it doesn't cost me any more (in time or energy or anything like that) I'd be a fool to price the book at $50.

      As far as quality work goes, suppose I find that by spending 50% more effort on a book, to increase its quality, I double sales. In that case, it pays me to put in the extra work. Again, it's a matter of not having a limit on the amount of X I can sell.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:Equally suspect by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I know I'm way late, and others have brought this up, but the other thing missed in these e-book (especially kindle) discussions is that when you buy a paperback, it's got all the case law you could imagine that you *OWN* that physical item.

      It has intrinsic value in that you can re-sell it, give it away however and to whomever you want, you can use it to prop up a table, you can burn it for heat, you can lend it out.

      None of these things are true with most e-books. You are limited to where and with what software you can read it (Kindle), Amazon can (and has) take it back [Imagine if they tried to do this with a paperback!], you can't (as far as I know) re-sell it, I'm not sure you can lend it or give it away.

      As people like to say, with DRM you're renting or leasing something. That's fine, but I don't know anyone who is going to pay retail to rent something...

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
  15. Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by Daemonik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why is Scalzi only bringing up hardcover prices when at $9.99 the ebook is HIGHER than the paperback release, which will sell more copies than the hardcover as well. How can he argue that there is "a legitimate reason for not wanting the gulf between eBook and physical hardcover pricing to be so large that brick and mortar retailers suffer" when paperbacks sell for $6.99-$7.99?? If brick and mortar retailers can survive cheap paperbacks, why can't they survive eBooks priced $2-$3 higher? For that matter, I have never heard anyone in the publishing industry who can explain why eBooks should be priced higher than paperbacks.

  16. Amazon is OK by Jodka · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Even if Amazon's argument is flawed, their attempt to persuade by using reason and presenting facts is nonetheless admirable. As opposed to the feces hurling which accompanies most public disputes these days.

    It builds a solid foundation for a researched and reasoned response in opposition. As opposed to picking up the monkey dung and throwing back.

       

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    1. Re:Amazon is OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon is feeding you a line of BS that sounds plausible and with zero thinking people are accepting it at face value. As they say, the best lies are ones that contain a enough of the truth to make them sound plausible.

      Amazon is using extremely selective data, and don't supply the data. Is their "proof" based on just 1 book ? What about different price points, why not $10, or $11, or $12 ?
      Is the price point one where they have calculated they would make the same money by higher volumes of sales through Amazon because it has killed off the competition, but over all will reduce the income of most authors and publishers ?

      How will this impact hard cover sales (where the most profit is made) ?
      Will this force further cuts in price for less popular authors thus reducing the income for the majority of authors ?

      How does Amazon justify their 30%, they do the least out of writer / publisher / reseller and have over all the least costs and the least skills. Would reducing their cut to 10% not see a reduction in price and therefore an increase sales and and increased payments to the Authors/Publishers ?

      Amazons "facts" are unverifiable and are right up there with Vaccinations cause Autism. They are designed for one thing and one thing only, Amazons gain even if it means loss of variety, and quality of books as they race to the bottom.

  17. I've got a better modell by aliquis · · Score: 0

    98% to the writer.
    2% to the distributor.

    (Maybe more if you pay for advertising of your product too.. Cover bandwidth and server cost whatever is needed, 5%?)

    1. Re:I've got a better modell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In your model, it's beautiful you can get so many people to work for a mere 2% of the total revenue. This includes:
      - the editor
      - the copy editor
      - the proof reader
      - the cover/graphic designers
      - the photographers
      - the layout people
      - the marketing people
      - the lawyers, if necessary
      - management
      - the printer
      - the accountants
      - the customer service (used by stores)
      - the IT department
      - the building janitors/maintenance
      - the delivery people
      - the shipping and receiving people
      - the store managers
      - the store clerks
      - the restocking people
      - the ISBN fees
      - the rent, hydro, etc on the publisher's building
      - the rent, hydro, etc on the store's building
      - the delivery truck's amortization and fuel expenses.
      - the conversion to digital format (and associated fees for software)
      - store website and database people

      Out of curiosity, just how much do you believe that authors/artists make?

    2. Re:I've got a better modell by taustin · · Score: 4, Informative

      People who actually work in the industry, including award winning authors will point out that as much work goes in to turning a manuscript in to a book as goes in to writing the manuscript. That's today, with the crappy level of editing and proofreading.

      What you want is no editing, no proofreading, and overall shit quality. You can get, literally, millions of books like that for free all over the internet. Enjoy.

    3. Re:I've got a better modell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. I fucking self published a short novella and it took me longer to get my proof to look good (layout and non-self-editing) than it did to get the damn thing written in the first place.

    4. Re:I've got a better modell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work in the industry and think what you're saying is half true--good editing from the point of the submitted manuscript to the final press is key, and radically underappreciated. The role of the editor gets lost in far too many discussions about contemporary publishing (e.g., self-publishing, open access journals, etc.).

      The place where it becomes a gamble, though, is that not every publisher is equally good at editing. Most publishers' editors will mess things up as much as they help, and it's only through back and forth do you get something better in the end. Some will help much more than they hurt, and some will end up hurting more than they help. There's also the authors themselves: some are great at editing and layout, and some are horrible.

      So if you can do a good job of editing and layout as well as writing, you'll do well self-publishing. If you don't, you'll fail miserably. The trick is to know where you are with that, and not all do.

      Like a lot of things in life, everyone has different needs. Some need a publisher, some probably don't. If nothing else comes out of the internet for publishing, I hope it's that it forces people to seek publishers when they need it, and for publishers to feel the pressure to offer a fair deal for their services. I wouldn't want everyone blindly getting a publisher, nor would I want publishers out of business.

    5. Re:I've got a better modell by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      People who actually work in the industry, including award winning authors will point out that as much work goes in to turning a manuscript in to a book as goes in to writing the manuscript. That's today, with the crappy level of editing and proofreading.

      I have no formal training in "copy editing", "proofreading", or any other publishing skill.

      Yet, it takes me only about an hour to reformat a book from the crappy HTML that almost all eBooks have into something that fits the ePub standard. Likewise, I have taken community-scanned books with horrific formatting and with a few regular expression search and replace, turned them into correct paragraph-formatted HTML, ready for detail formatting. Again, this only takes a couple of hours.

      Proofreading the book does take whatever time it takes (a minute or two per page), though, as even spell- and grammar-checking can't catch much.

      Since I'm assuming that current authors write using some kind of computer software, I would suspect that a publishing house would have far less to do in the formatting realm as they would have much better sources than I get to work with. So, unless the book is just broken in some way (characters re-named halfway through, backstory in chapter 1 doesn't match that in chapter 12, etc.), it won't need much in the way of editing, as pretty much every author has their own style and changing that isn't a good thing. eBooks especially have no real limits, so a book with an extra 30,000 words isn't going to cause the publishing run to have to be done with some other physical method, or a smaller font to fit the required page count, etc., so again unless the book is so crappy that it probably shouldn't have been written in the first place, there's really not as much need for "editing" as there used to be.

    6. Re:I've got a better modell by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Formatting the book is a whole lot easier than it used to be, true, but that's only part of what an editor does.

      The author is not going to be good at reading for consistency, since the author knows a whole lot more about the fictional world than went into the story (at least, this is my experience writing stuff that isn't really publishable). A casual reader may miss a name change or inconsistent backstory. That doesn't mean that name consistency is unimportant, but rather than a skilled editor will pick up on things that will make the book worse that most people will overlook.

      If an editor can help cut 30K words out of a book, the book is almost certainly going to be much better. The file size is irrelevant, but the reader is going to get more story per hour of reading. If a lot of the cutting is excess adjectives and the like, the sentences are going to be easier to read.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:I've got a better modell by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      Formatting the book is a whole lot easier than it used to be, true, but that's only part of what an editor does.

      You'd think that, but I returned an eBook to Amazon after their normal return period when starting about 30% through, paragraphs breaks started being random...sometimes there would be no break in 20 lines of alternating dialog, and sometimes paragraphs would break like they were trying to be wrapped to fit a very narrow line. It also had long runs of italics (no closing tag), random font size changes, and run-together words. It was obvious that nobody had read that book after some idiot formatted it.

      Also, many eBooks are apparently not sourced from an electronic copy, but rather scans of the print version, as they often have dozens (or even hundreds) of versions of the section separators (like 3 stars) as images. I can maybe understand one copy of the image, but with Unicode and embedded fonts, you can usually convert those kind of dingbats to text.

      Or how about this sample (that happens a lot) of how not to do small caps to intro a chapter. The entire span is set smaller than the main text, then the first character is made bigger, and the rest set in fake small caps (by using all caps and shrinking the font). I've seen even worse examples that result in the first words at about 30% of the main font size. These are straight from Amazon, and that's exactly how it renders on a Kindle.

      The author is not going to be good at reading for consistency, since the author knows a whole lot more about the fictional world than went into the story (at least, this is my experience writing stuff that isn't really publishable). A casual reader may miss a name change or inconsistent backstory. That doesn't mean that name consistency is unimportant, but rather than a skilled editor will pick up on things that will make the book worse that most people will overlook.

      I can tell you right now that publishers either don't have any skilled editors working for them, or they choose to only assign them to books I don't read.

      From #1 best-selling authors to the somewhat obscure, I find errors that anyone who read the book at all would have caught. Gems include sections repeated outright in later chapters (character briefly introduced, then fleshed out, but the "fleshing" used copy/paste starting paragraphs that made little sense in the later context), character name changes, spelling/usage errors (I've seen they're/their/there confusion in far too many books), and no knowledge of the character/author (character says "should of gone" as many people incorrectly do, but is "corrected" by the editor to "should have gone" in some but not all instances).

      What I'm basically saying is that if you think a publisher deserves money because they provide editing for the author, much of what is being sent out by the "Big Six" shows that you're wrong.

    8. Re:I've got a better modell by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I haven't been noticing stuff like that in what I've been reading, and I'm a pretty good natural proofreader. Perhaps we've been reading books from different sources.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:I've got a better modell by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's time to have editors share a byline on the books. "Written by X, Edited/Proofed by Y" The second line can be in smaller print, but it would still have the same effect: If someone is a new author and they pay an established, individual editor/proofreader, more people will be interested in their work because the editor was interested in taking on the job. Sure, there will be ones who take any job and churn out material, which can make this second "by" a good negative indicator as well as a positive. The ones that are known to be picky and have a good track record of picking can help authors get started without having to involve an entire publisher.

      It will be a weird symbiosis, as accomplished authors will move to unknown editors in order to pay less, but then those editors become known and in turn find unknown authors they can make more lucrative contracts with... It's not a huge divorce from the current publishing industry, but there will be far more choice and it will be far more decentralized, so it's still a vast improvement without the entire industry becoming print-outs of FanFiction.net.

      Likely the "proofing" is more important, because basic editing (typeface, spacing, etc.) can be done by computers.

    10. Re:I've got a better modell by nabsltd · · Score: 1

      FWIW, I haven't been noticing stuff like that in what I've been reading, and I'm a pretty good natural proofreader. Perhaps we've been reading books from different sources.

      My most recent example of something any editor should have caught is in the new Jeffery Deaver (The Skin Collector).

      In it, a book is identified by a scrap of a page, primarily because the hero knew the font was Adobe Myriad, based on the shape of certain letters. Anybody at all familiar with actual print books (like an editor) would know that Myriad would never be used as body text since it is a sans-serif font, and a really good editor would check the claims about the "slanted 'e'" and discover that the font has no appreciable angle to the horizontal strokes.

      For repeated character description, look at Command Authority by Tom Clancy, and search for "Midas". We are constantly reminded that this is the code name for a character named "Barry Jankowski", and often when we are reminded, we also get a repeat of something else, like his rank, skill set, former postings, etc.

  18. Should we care about... by thieh · · Score: 2

    Brick and mortar bookstore doesn't sell books with DRM so you can sell it or donate it at your pleasure?

    1. Re:Should we care about... by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 2

      Brick and mortar bookstore doesn't sell books with DRM so you can sell it or donate it at your pleasure?

      You forget, comrade, that paper books are much harder to alter after publication than electronic ones. How will we control history if we let the literate middle class continue to hold us accountable for the past? We must encourage the elimination of paper as quickly as possible. Then the people will be free from the burdensome moral responsibility of keeping track of their rulers and histories, and therefore, happier.

      --
      Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
    2. Re:Should we care about... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Paper eliminates itself over time but I would agree that content from Amazon is not immune to fiddling in the back end.

    3. Re:Should we care about... by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 1

      I don't think "paper eliminates itself over time" is valid as a criticism of its archival value. What was your reason for saying this?

      --
      Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
  19. Looks good for the author by blogagog · · Score: 1

    "there's rather less of an argument that it's good for anyone else." Making $3.50 per book is a fantastic deal for, say a fiction writer.

    1. Re:Looks good for the author by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      Unless you are currently a fiction writer who earns $4 per book...

  20. They are neglecting over time proffit by oic0 · · Score: 2

    Its likely best to start a book at 15 and slowly drop it down, just like like every other entertainment medium.... and like they already do by releasing hard backs first. The price thing is true though. I read a lot, I probably buy 2 or 3 books a week and when I am digging for books to buy I give a lot more consideration to cheap books. More expensive books are given much lower priority when I am considering what to buy. I wouldnt even consider a $15 book and a $10 is barely within consideration. $3 is more like it and $6 being a stretch.

    1. Re:They are neglecting over time proffit by tompaulco · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, when I see a new hardcover book, I make a mental note to check back in 6 months when it has gone to paperback. I just don't need to spend 50% more for the same content just because it is hardbound. In my experience, paperback books last at least as long as hardbound. Which is to say, I have yet to have a paperback book fail on me, and I have some that are over 50 years old. I've had a few hardbound ones fail, because they are generally heavier and less likely to be able to stand up to their own weight.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  21. Enough is enough by Guspaz · · Score: 2

    I'm sick of paying $16 for eBooks when the hardcover version sells for $12... I'm with Amazon on this one.

  22. Maybe the author needs to get out more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's a pretty depressing and cynical techno-libertarian argument. You might ask yourself if it's an awesome thing that Steam has convinced you to clog up your hard drive with games you'll never play, and if it that is great for everyone, including authors, if the same happens for books. We're seeing this problem today in mobile apps, which it turns out also "interchangeable units of entertainment." It turns out that repeat and return customers are what matters in the apps game, just like for books, and if the books are interchangeable why would I care about buying another one from the same author?

      Pricing elasticity arguments work great if you're in the driver's seat.Amazon is. It is hilarious to see how they the magic of the market when they want to but use their lawyers to skate around anti-trust in every market they monopolize.

  23. Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Scalzi whines (and he's a very good whiner) that Amazon is acting out of pure self interest, with any benefit to anyone else being coincidence, but I note that Scalzi, by his own accounting, makes a six figure income from the traditional publishing industry, so by his own logic, every single word out of his mouth (or keyboard) must necessarily be assumed to be for his own pure self interest, with any benefit to anyone else, including us, the readers, being coincidence.

    The bottom line is that the entire publishing industry is very, very broken, desperately trying to cling to a centuries old, thoroughly outdated business model. Amazon is the new, disruptive innovation, forcing change whether their competition, or the market, is ready for it or not. That is pretty much the only difference. Both sides are huge, publicly traded companies required by law to care more about profits than anything else, both sides are doing whatever they can to protect their shareholder's interests and CEO's egos. With the technology changes in the last 20 years, the conflict is inevitable. It cannot be avoided. The winner will be whoever is best at creating the new business model, and history says that will very likely be Amazon. For publishers, it's adapt or die.

    Thing is, pretty much all that is true of authors, too. They, too, are businessmen who are out to protect their own interests. The professionals - the real professionals, like Scalzi, who make their living off writing - are not about to let the fans' interests get in the way of their mortgage payments. Those who are part of the traditional industry, like Scalzi, will naturally see the logic of their publisher's arguments. The growing handful of those who have made it big self publishing through Amazon will naturally see the logic of Amazon's arguments. And us, the buyers of books, will naturally see whatever propaganda is packed up in the skimpiest bikini with the biggest boobs.

    1. Re:Pots and kettles by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      If a business does not act in its own interest, who is going to act in their best interest for them. In fact, everyone acts in their own best interest. When people act in others best interest, it is because they believe it is in their best interest to do so.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    2. Re:Pots and kettles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything you've said is anecdotal at best and nonsensical at worst.

      So what if Scalzi is currently tied to the publishing industry? If he could find a way to make more money from e-books, do you think he'd simply refuse it? As the content creator, he stands to make the most benefit from any attempts of cutting out middle men.

      >the real professionals, like Scalzi, who make their living off writing - are not about to let the fans' interests get in the way of their mortgage payments.

      Conveniently ignoring some of scifi's biggest names of the last few years - Greg Egan, Charles Stross, Corey Doctorow - who release large swathes of their work online, for free.

    3. Re:Pots and kettles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming that Amazon's data isn't cooked, their model is better for authors. What we are seeing is people who don't understand data/economics shilling for their employers.

    4. Re:Pots and kettles by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      In fact, everyone acts in their own best interest.

      True on average I suppose, but not in general. Morality and/or integrity frequently trumps self-interest... at least this is true for people with morals and/or integrity.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    5. Re:Pots and kettles by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Both sides are huge, publicly traded companies required by law to care more about profits than anything else, both sides are doing whatever they can to protect their shareholder's interests and CEO's egos.

      A little off-topic, but I sometimes get a big grumpy about the whole, "Publicly traded companies are required by law to care more about profits than anything else." You get it right in the second sentence fragment, though.

      Publicly traded companies are required by law to protect their shareholders' interests.

      If their shareholders care about immediate profit and stock price more than anything else, then you're right. If their shareholders care more about not damaging the environment more than anything else, then you're wrong.

      I'd agree that shareholders are mostly concerned about ROI, share price, dividends, and the like, so it kind of works out the same way.

    6. Re:Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1

      Exactly true. Blaming either side - any side - for the current conflict is just demonstrating a lack of understanding of how markets work, and how businesses are run.

    7. Re:Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1

      No. Morality and/or integrity usually - almost always - are a very effective tool for self interest. They are good for business, because they induce employees to work harder, they induce customers to buy more and more often, and they keep management happier as human beings (at least, those who are sociopaths, and most are not).

    8. Re:Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1

      Everything you've said is anecdotal at best and nonsensical at worst.

      So what if Scalzi is currently tied to the publishing industry? If he could find a way to make more money from e-books, do you think he'd simply refuse it?

      "Make more money is not a simple concept to even define, much less implement. One could honestly believe that more money could be made in the long run by self publishing, but if that involves an immediate drop in income sufficient to make one homeless, then it's a bad idea. And that's a changer - from traditional publishing to self publishing - that's very like any other change in profession. He'd go from being one of the most successful writers in the genre market - very few fiction writers make more than $100k/year - to being a complete neophyte, until he learned the ropes. In a profession new enough that there really isn't an established model to learn from yet. He's conservative in his approach, and with a family to feed, that's not surprising. Whether or not he's correct, only the future can tell.

      As the content creator, he stands to make the most benefit from any attempts of cutting out middle men.

      That depends on what services the middle man provides. Those who have made it big self publishing, at least those who have commented on how they did so, universally say they spend at least as much time marketing as they do writing, and generally rather more. Most jump at the change to sign a contract with a big publisher, once they have the bargaining power to get a decent one. They all say that lets them spend twice as much writing.

      You seem to be assuming that the "middle man" provides no service whatsoever. Most professional writers universally disagree with you, and I find them far more credible than you.

      >the real professionals, like Scalzi, who make their living off writing - are not about to let the fans' interests get in the way of their mortgage payments.

      Conveniently ignoring some of scifi's biggest names of the last few years - Greg Egan, Charles Stross, Corey Doctorow - who release large swathes of their work online, for free.

      Not 100% sure about Doctorow, but Egan and Stross both have made their careers by publishing through traditional publishers. Stross, in particular, has written quite a bit about the value of having a publisher perform publishers' duties. He may release "large swathes" of his work online for free, but he makes his living selling his books to one of the biggest publishers in the world. Everything else is PR, hoping to promote that income.

      Doctorow appears to be, at least, in part, part of the new breed who are actively trying to figure out how to make a living in the new market that is emerging, and he clearly does not consider money to be the only form of payment for his work. In other words, he's got ideals, and he's willing to take a hit on income to be seen pursuing them. Which is entirely consistent with what I said. He sides with the side that he's been successful at, which is mostly Corey Doctorow.

    9. Re:Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1

      Whether their data is cooked or not, their model is impossible, even if the big publishers weren't idiotic dinosaurs. They advocate an even split between authors and publishers, which completely ignores the cost of publishing. What they advocate is for every publisher other than Amazon go out of business, so that Amazon can rule the world.

      The publishers, of course, advocate that Amazon go out of business, so that things can go back to the way they were.

      That's the difference between the old guard and the young guns.

    10. Re:Pots and kettles by taustin · · Score: 1

      If their shareholders care about immediate profit and stock price more than anything else, then you're right. If their shareholders care more about not damaging the environment more than anything else, then you're wrong.

      If that's what shareholder care about, then that's what's in the shareholders' interests. There are examples in the real world of companies that put such things in their corporate charters.

      The problem is when a company has been around for a while, and thousands of people have invested in it, knowing (from years of financial reports), and it suddenly changes the way it operates in a way that really trashes stock values. That's what lawsuits are made of, and rightly so. Even if the ones who object to losing their investment are a small minority. It's like everybody else in the homeowners' association deciding they want a swimming pool, and your fees triple even though you don't swim. Even the minority has rights.

      And money is the only objective measure possible, so it's the only one the courts can rule on.

    11. Re:Pots and kettles by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      That Scalzi has an interest in the traditional industry (which he makes no secret of) does not do anything to the content of his argument, being that you should take Amazon's PR piece with a large grain of salt.

      Nice ad hominem there, Terry.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    12. Re:Pots and kettles by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Doctorow succeeds partly due to self promotion, but that will only work for a few prominent authors. Not everybody can be an editor on boing boing.

    13. Re:Pots and kettles by rochrist · · Score: 1

      You know, he actually makes the point QUITE CLEARLY that he's arguing in HIS INTERESTS. His point is that Amazon is arguing their interests, the publisher's are arguing theirs and the author (in this case him) is arguing his. He makes the point again and again that it's a business and he's running a business and he has good and bad relationships with both Amazon AND various publishers.

    14. Re:Pots and kettles by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Doctrow is something of an outlier. He doesn't actually make most of his money from his writing.

    15. Re:Pots and kettles by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      First, morality and integrity can pay off long-term, even if they cost short-term. Second, I don't see that doing something despicable just for a lot of money to be in my self-interest. I have enough money to live comfortably, and I'm going to be happier not doing something despicable. (In other words, I'm very definitely not desperate for money.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  24. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by taustin · · Score: 1

    The most profitable part of a book release is the hardcover phase for a new book. The profit margin on hardcovers is higher than on paperbacks, mass market or trade. If you undercut your own prices on the hardcovers with your ebooks, you lose the more profitable sales.

    It's an outdated business model, and one that doesn't work with ebooks very well at all, but it's the one that has run the publishing industry for a century and more, and it's not going down without a fight.

  25. I don't need clutter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    I love to read to my kids and I used to read a lot. My major was english lit. The thing is, I don't want shelves and shelves of book that collect dust. Yes, the tactile feeling of a book is nice, but taking up space and gathering dust isn't. I just donated several boxes of books to the library because I was tired of having them clutter the house.

    ebooks are more friendly to me. I can search it, carry it all in my tablet or laptop. The prices the publishers are charging isn't reasonable and I choose not to play their game. They can go screw themselves and the way they abuse authors.

  26. One market? I think not! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I might sell my boon on 'England' for £10 but £1 in China.
    There are huge cultural differences which make a nonsense of Amazon's 'formula'.

  27. same thing again by Jodka · · Score: 2

    Amazon's pricing argument is one instance of the same general phenomenon that gross expenditures, under some conditions, increase in response to price decreases. The effect has different names in different contexts:

    With taxation, people sometimes refer to the Laffer Curve, which for levels of taxation to the right of the peak of the curve, reducing tax rates increases tax revenues.

    For technology, Jevons Paradox explains why, as the efficiency of home appliances increases, so does energy consumption.

    My grandfather, an economist, had an amusing story about a toll bridge authority attempting to taper down revenues as the bond which funded the bridge was paid off. They lowered the toll price to reduce revenues and revenues shot up as customers responded to the lower toll price by crossing the bridge more frequently. So they lowered the toll price again and revenues shot up further. As I recall the story goes that it worked the third time.

         

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    1. Re:same thing again by Kiwikwi · · Score: 1

      Amazon's pricing argument is one instance of the same general phenomenon that gross expenditures, under some conditions, increase in response to price decreases. The effect has different names in different contexts:

      With taxation, people sometimes refer to the Laffer Curve, which for levels of taxation to the right of the peak of the curve, reducing tax rates increases tax revenues.

      For technology, Jevons Paradox explains why, as the efficiency of home appliances increases, so does energy consumption.

      This is off-topic, but you brought up the Laffer curve and Jevons paradox, so here comes the rant.

      Both make for some nice economic theory, and like much economic theory, it's mostly speculation.

      The Laffer curve, for instance, is a nice "sciency" sounding name for the idea that at a 100% tax rate, there will be no tax income, since nobody will be doing any work if they have to pay all their income in taxes (thus the "optimal" tax rate must be somewhere between 0 and 100%, both excluded). Not only does the entire Laffer curve theory just state the "obvious" (it brings no insights as to what the optimal tax rate might be), but the premise is also demonstrably false, since people will actually do some work for free (but of course, volunteer work doesn't exist in mainstream economics; it's like wind resistance in introductory physics, you just ignore it).

      Jevons paradox is the same; to quote the very article you linked to:

      [...] Saunders dubbed the hypothesis that improvements in energy efficiency work to increase, rather than decrease, energy consumption the Khazzoom–Brookes postulate [a specific instance of the Jevons paradox]. Saunders showed that the Khazzoom–Brookes postulate was consistent with neo-classical growth theory (the mainstream economic theory of capital accumulation, technological progress and long-run economic growth) under a wide range of assumptions.

      That's mainstream economic theory. Meanwhile, in the real world, using real observations, economists found that there was only a small rebound effect, and that energy efficiency improvements actually does decrease energy consumption. (But since reality conflicts with the theory, we'll just ignore reality.)

      To get back on topic, I'm not saying all economic theory is bullshit (but there's lies, damn lies, and economics...), just that when people trot out economics, there's usually an agenda, and the invocation of economics is often part of an "appeal to authority" fallacy. (Like how the Laffer curve is inevitably brought up as an argument for reducing taxes, ignoring the fact that estimates of the "optimal" tax rate cluster around 70%(!), above even the highest income tax rates found anywhere in the world.)

      Amazon is of course not above manipulating numbers for its own benefit; the most obvious flaw in their argument being that they (deliberately?) ignore how Amazon's price affects other sales channels.

    2. Re:same thing again by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Agreed. By the logic of some people, if I gave the product away, I'd have an infinite amount of money. Obviously it doesn't work that way.

      For example, consider this $14.99 book. If I reduced the price to $13.99, would I make more money than if it was $14.99? I might actually make less money because the price different isn't enough to make me buy it. But at $9.99, I've crossed a psychological barrier--under $10--and I might see more sales and more revenue than at $14.99.

    3. Re:same thing again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. I spent a long time evaluating your post. Something rubbed me the wrong way, I think it was your false argument that there is no benefit in stating the obvious. But, what I found is that you introduced variables that the laffer curve doesn't address. I would have preffered you use a different example that drives the tax revenue side negative. A business that operates at a loss gets money out of the system. A company that sets up a multi year tax free lease screws the rest of us over because the "obviousness" of zero revenue is lost on the theiving politicians who write such deals as well as the suckers left over who have to pay for it.

    4. Re:same thing again by Kiwikwi · · Score: 1

      Something rubbed me the wrong way, I think it was your false argument that there is no benefit in stating the obvious.

      Hm, my fault then; I really was aiming for "+5 insightful", not "-1 rub the wrong way". :-)

      There is a benefit to stating the obvious, it's just not a very big one. The problem with the Laffer curve is that it really just states two things: 1) At 0% taxation, there will be no tax revenue, and 2) At 100% taxation, there will be no tax revenue. And as mentioned, the latter of those two postulates, while "obvious", is also demonstrably false. This leaves postulate 1, which I can't disagree with, but which is also completely useless.

  28. 9.99 by blackfeltfedora · · Score: 2

    I for one flat refuse to pay more than $9.99 for an ebook and I will never forgive Steve Jobs for causing this mess in the first place.

  29. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    So in other words, better not to sell the book at all than sell the edition of the book which has a lower profit margin?

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  30. books are interchangeable units of entertainment, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Not in my case. I buy 'the book' often because its the only one available on the topic. If its priced too high I have to put it off until the price is reasonable. In some cases that is never. If a book is available as an ebook its even better. I have a Kindle that reads to me while I commute. Obviously I can't read a paper book while driving.

  31. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One could show that by dropping your income to about 10% of what it currently is would make everything you do cheaper, and therefore cost the end consumer less, there fore they would buy more and you would be busier.

    It would also stop the jobs from being exported to India and China.

    So, now I am trying to understand why wages in the USA are higher then 90% of the worlds population. Is this simply greed ?

    If 90% of the worlds population can survive on low incomes, why should this business model not be forced of US wages. We are a global economy now and US workers are simply trying to protect an outmoded business/ wage model.

  32. idiot asshole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You obviously didn't understand what the author said.

    Now stop channeling Ayn Rand and get rid of those delusions of John Galthood and try to actually read what the author wrote.

  33. better idea. just cut out amazon completely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    give libraries fair and equal access to electronic editions of books, allow them to treat them as physical copies... they buy at their usual prices (i.e. hardcover for most, paperback for popular current works), and allow them to legally 'lend' copies of them (multiple copies simultaneously even, up to the number of 'copies' they own at a time) out to patrons with library cards and a supported device (nook, kindle, android tablet, ipad or windows pc or tablet, etc. with the reader software). a few days before due date, reader gets prompted to renew if they haven't yet 'checked in' the title, and if not renewed the license to read their device copy is revoked automatically at due date so that it can be checked out by someone else. no late fees, no extra trips to the library, libraries retain relevance in the digital age (it is still an awesome place to go even now.. sucks that so many are closing or consolidating branches). same thing can be done with movies, television and music.. other media types that libraries do purchase physical copies of and do lend out to patrons... ya, even back in the days of vinyl records and betamax they did.

  34. Disengenous (Not) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not disingenuous at all... and there's no 'thinly veiled' anything. They are very clear that their direct goal is to cut out the publisher... Read their statement... If you don't like their goals - fine... but there's nothing shady going on here. They're saying the publishers are valueless middlemen... and giving writers a chance to agree with them rather than be strongarmed by a publisher. It's up to the writer to decide what they think. Nobody stops them from going with a publisher.

  35. Price by Vrallis · · Score: 1

    I still want to know why the fuck an eBook with virtually zero cost of goods is near twice the price of an actual paperback with serious manufacturing, storage, and distribution costs.

    If eBooks were sold with the same profit margins as paperback they'd probably be about $2. I refuse to pay much more than that for one.

    1. Re:Price by the+phantom · · Score: 2

      First off, the higher priced ebooks are not meant to be competitive with paperbacks, but with hardcover releases. Generally, the hardcover and the ebook will come out at about the same time with the ebook being cheaper. I would also note (anecdotally) that most ebooks seem to come down in price in sync with the release of a paperback edition.

      Second, according to a commenter on Scalzi's website who claims to have experience in the industry (going by the nym --E), it costs about one to two bucks to print and ship a paperback. Given that mass market paperbacks tend to run about $6-10, a price point of $4-9 would be in keeping with the notion of not paying the cost of printing and shipping a physical book. Oddly enough, a lot of ebooks seem to get sold in that range of prices. If your entire justification for not buying an ebook for more than $2 is that this represents the cost of a paperback minus the cost of paper, then you might want to reassess what you are willing to pay for an ebook.

    2. Re:Price by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. Hardcover books are for collectors and libraries. Their market has not changed an iota. For the market at large, the physical version of a book is the PAPERBACK. So telling a public, who never buys hardcovers that "our e-books are priced MUCH lower than hardcovers" is pointless. The book industry's fantasy that hardcovers are like movie releases in theatres, with paperbacks being the video release, shows that the book industry is headed to the same place that the movie theater industry is...into history's dustbin. And like the movie theater industry, I won't miss the book industry when its gone. Publishers have had their go....they created a corrupt system that is broken on every level....eg Steinbeck has been dead since 1968 yet millions are still being made in royalties from his work...both for his publisher and his son, neither of whom had ANYTHING to do with the creation of the works.

    3. Re:Price by the+phantom · · Score: 1

      (Why I am responding to an AC, I cannot fathom but...)

      Nothing you have said actually contradicts anything that I said or is in any way relevant to the point that I made. The more expensive ebooks are priced as such because some people (not you, obviously) are willing to pay a premium for early access when the alternative to an ebook is a hardcover volume.

    4. Re:Price by rochrist · · Score: 1

      I'm not a collector, nor am I a library. But there are authors I will always buy hardcover. There are a lot more of me that you suspect.

  36. Selection dictated by tragedy of the commons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The world will be a poorer place when only 3 companies dictate, through the desire's of the masses, what books are for sale.
    Think long and hard where this will go. It is a destruction of culture.

  37. Moron by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The guy's an idiot who can't read. Amazon didn't say that books were interchangeable with other forms of entertainment. They said books have to COMPETE against other form of entertainment for your attention and money, which is entirely true!

  38. Sell the books when you are done. by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    It is a bit of a bother. But, it is not unusual to be able to sell a book for the same, or even more, than you paid for it.

    1. Re:Sell the books when you are done. by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      It is a bit of a bother

      Books (paperbacks) seem to sell for about 1/3 of they "new" cost as used - or $0-$4 per book; many sell for nothing more than a $4 shipping fee (about $2.50 of which is postage). Even if you buy used and resell, you're going through the hassle of selling, packaging, and shipping a book for $1.50. Now, that's certainly more than nothing, but you start wondering very quickly if it's even worth your time to list, package, and ship those books.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  39. 30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by walterbyrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Cut out the useless publisher, and the author gets 70%.

    Why do you need a publisher to sell an ebook?

    Idunno. Maybe a publisher does have some use. But does an ebook publisher deserve a whopping 30% ?

    1. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      The publisher does a lot more work than Amazon in this scenario, they literally just add the information you give them to their database... I completely fail to see how they figure that is worth 30%, I think they have chosen that number as it is the highest possible amount they can add while making themselves look like they get the least.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    2. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by horza · · Score: 1

      Or maybe they saw Apple's iTunes store, saw them taking 30% of app developers revenue simply for sticking up a link, and turn over $10bn last year?

      Phillip.

    3. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by Balinares · · Score: 1

      The publisher does the funding, editing, copy-editing, typesetting, marketing, legal registration, cover design on the book, and that's not even the one most important role they perform in the system.

      Amazon does cp book.epub .

      Which one here is the middleman exactly?

      --

      -- B.
      This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
    4. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by Balinares · · Score: 1

      Goddammit Slashdot. That was "cp book.epub <your device>". That's what I get for not previewing, I guess.

      --

      -- B.
      This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
    5. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Does Amazon deserve a whopping 30%?

    6. Re:30% for publisher? Why have a publisher? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Publishers aren't printers -- an ebook needs just as much development and editing as the paper edition of the same book does. Lots of books are only interesting ideas in the authors' hands, and not useful or readable until after a long collaboration. (Not all, but it's not rare, although it doesn't fit our Lone Romantic Artist schema.)

  40. Re:Disengenous [sic] by Cantankerous+Cur · · Score: 1

    Also, the big 6 publishing houses have a massively left-leaning bias. They've spent decades now killing the sales numbers of entire genres because the authors were required to toe the line of the latest politically correct movement.

    You really had to go there, huh? By the way, Ann Coulter is published by Three Rivers Press, a division of Random House.

    And frankly, profit isn't partisan. Companies publish what they think will sell (with exceptions, naturally)

  41. They need to more fully embrace Steam's strategy. by nicobigsby · · Score: 1

    Retail the books at whatever price the publisher wants, but then arrange with publishers to do amazing sales. If they manage to advertise the sales to likely consumers based on product purchasing history (Nico buys fantasy novels at a disproportionate rate to others, advertise this fantasy novel to him) they stand to make a lot of money. For instance yesterday I had been watching some comic con panels that featured some of my favorite authors. One of the other authors (Patrick Rothfuss) on the panel was an author I had been interested in and meaning to read for some time. Yesterday I went to buy the book and to my pleasant surprise it was marked down to only four bucks. I bought it instantly. However if that had happened and it had been advertised to me at any point in the last six months, I would have bought the book on the spot at that point. If they can find a way to make such happy accidents happen regularly, everybody wins.

  42. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Books (like movies, video games, etc.) are sold as a reverse auction: the price goes down over time in order to charge different customers different amounts for the same good. Traditionally, this is done by having a book be hardcover only for a while before releasing a paperback; the fact that the hardcover is actually more expensive to produce than the paperback is somewhat of a technicality, the important part is that it costs more. The reasonable way to add ebooks to this model is to simply lower the price of the ebook over time, perhaps even aligned with the paperback release.

  43. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remember when audio CDs cost more than audio cassette tapes? That's why ebooks cost more than paper backs.

  44. Internet killed the video star by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

    Video stores are closing all over the world because of the internet. Newspapers are downsizing, magazines are closing their doors because of the internet. It's another logical step to see book stores downsizing/closing as well. There will probably always be book stores around, but it's going to become a niche market where instead of having a book store in every town you will only have them in major city centres. It's inevitable. Kicking and screaming about it is just wasting oxygen. As for the publisher, you add a table of contents, some proofreading and expect a 30% cut! Word can add a bloody table of contents, pay some underpaid English school teacher to proof read it, get on Deviant art and get some underpaid Art student to do a cover and voila, instant publisher. The only need for a publisher was to upfront the costs of printing the fvcking book! That's gone now, and so should publishers. I have read about authors who eventually became big big names who were continually rejected by publishers because they had their head stuck up their own asses. How many masterpieces are lying rejected and discarded because some publisher did not enjoy the book or actually did not take the time to read it. I don't need some opinionated greedy middle man deciding what is good enough for me to read. Get rid of them.

    --
    There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    1. Re:Internet killed the video star by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      amazon already offers all the services you describe with mechanical turk & self publishing.

      publishers have been the gatekeepers of "good" for centuries and now they see their grip weakening. since they have authors (and their fans) tied up with exclusive contracts, they can kick & scream about amazon's disruption of their revenue stream.

  45. Game Theory by cpm99352 · · Score: 1

    This is a classic game theory problem. I'm astonished no one has pointed this out already.

    The setup is Amazon vs, conventional publishers. Surely Amazon has done the payoff calculations???
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  46. Nope, amazon is spot on. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have only bought 3 books that cost more than 10 dollars, out of 179 books on amazon kindle store. they are absolutely spot on with the 9.99 statement.

  47. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One could show that by dropping your income to about 10% of what it currently is would make everything you do cheaper, and therefore cost the end consumer less, there fore they would buy more and you would be busier.

    It would also stop the jobs from being exported to India and China.

    So, now I am trying to understand why wages in the USA are higher then 90% of the worlds population. Is this simply greed ?

    If 90% of the worlds population can survive on low incomes, why should this business model not be forced of US wages. We are a global economy now and US workers are simply trying to protect an outmoded business/ wage model.

    Because that "outmoded business/ wage model" includes such frivolous things as in-home electricity - and usually 24-hours of it, the ability to live off a more varied diet than rice and dal, personal transportation, and other things that aren't strictly essential for eking out an existence.

    Having customers that can afford your products was important to Henry Ford. Not so with modern corporations.

  48. No better moustrap at all ... by golodh · · Score: 1
    Let's not delude ourselves here: Amazon isn't "building a better mousetrap" at all and nobody needs Amazon to sell e-books.

    What's happening Instead is that Amazon is using its marketing clout and its "brand recognition" to carve out a monopoly for itself.

    Face it: anyone who can set up a website can sell e-books. You don't need a warehouse, you don't need fulfillment services. You just need a web-server and an e-shop.

    You also need customers however, and that's where Amazon's added value is. It has a big catalog of paper books and lots of customers who'll turn to Amazon *first* if they're looking for a book. Any book. And yes, that makes it easier to sell e-books too.

    In all other respects Amazon's added value is practically zero here, and it takes a lot of chutzpah to propose to charge 30% of the book price for that.

    What Amazon noticed however is that *their* turnover is highly price-elastic and that they're well positioned to make money at high turnover rates. Needless to say that their turnover is an *aggregate* of sales of lots and lots of different titles. That doesn't mean that each separate title has the same price elasticity, or that its profit is maximised by adopting their uniform price.

    Amazon simply wishes to grow its business by throttling direct sales and specialised retail channels and would like more or less uniform prices (like any other supermarket).

    Nothing wrong with that of course, but it's 100% self-serving.

    1. Re:No better moustrap at all ... by horza · · Score: 1

      " You also need customers however, and that's where Amazon's added value is. It has a big catalog of paper books and lots of customers who'll turn to Amazon *first* if they're looking for a book. Any book. And yes, that makes it easier to sell e-books too. In all other respects Amazon's added value is practically zero here"

      As somebody that used to be a prolific customer of Amazon, and spend tens of thousands of dollars there before they pulled down the Wikileaks web site and I stopped using them, the value was very much in the incredible database of user comments on each and every book they have accumulated. It would take a long time to set up a rival and generate that much genuine user contributed information.

      Phillip.

    2. Re:No better moustrap at all ... by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Not anymore. The comments are largely worthless at this point. I've seen books with five star ratings that would fail 8th grade English class.

  49. Pay more for a file than for a hardcopy? Fuck 'em. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon is still soaking everyone buying an ebook.

    There is ZERO reason for a file to be worth more than an actual in your hand hardcopy. There are no materials (paper, ink, etc) and virtually expense for warehousing and distribution. So why do they charge more?

    Only greed explains it.

  50. Elasticity can be more fine grained in eBooks by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Since there is near-zero cost of producing the nth unit for sale, even small changes in elasticity are valuable to the entire chain. It may not have been worthwhile for their example if the production of the physical hardcover copy costs $3.25 to produce - the increase in sales would be a wash. With eBooks, though, there are no print runs or disposal costs - there's no reason not to maximize number of copies as long as the gross receipts is maximized.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  51. The losses all add up... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

    Well, after subtracting the 3% that goes to Visa/Mastercard, that leaves the retailer, editor, publisher, and website manager a 1% loss to split amongst themselves.

    Of course, you could do it like the recording industry and give the authors a big share on paper, and then charge them ridiculous "retail" rates for all those services. But then you'd find out that, at the end of the run, the author is still in the red and receives practically nothing. At least in Amazon's accounting, the author is getting gross points.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  52. Whoa! What about rentals, Amazon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon is trying to destroy the ability for people to sell e-books by allowing unlimited rentals, so who cares what price e-books sell for? Amazon is trying to give publishers a pittance for rentals while collecting a yearly fee from subscribers. That's what this war with Hachette (and the other big publishers) is over. Nothing Amazon does benefits anyone but Amazon. The only way to win is not to play their game.

  53. Amazon's nature by markwillison · · Score: 1

    Amazon is a disruptive service/business having forced traditional publishing to reluctantly evolve and as a result has itself grown extremely successful. Continuing to look for ways to change and adapt (not just itself but the industry) seems only natural. Although this particular proposal of a pricing model may not be the next great evolution I still believe that it is entirely valid to re-examine the future of publishing models.

  54. Except... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the only thing MOST consumers care about is price.

    An ebook for $10? If it's something that interests me, I might pay that.

    An ebook for $15+? It would have to be something I REALLY want.

    I look at it this way - Say I want to spend $30 on new reading material. I can buy 3 $9.99 ebooks or I can buy 1+ ebooks that cost more than $10 (ratio depending on how much they are).

    I'm looking for value, for me.

  55. Scalzi also ignores when the hardback is more by mdfst13 · · Score: 1

    Back during the agency model, some eBooks were more expensive than the associated *hardback*. This is obviously absurd. The thing was that if Amazon was paying the publisher the same amount for the eBook as the hardback and was required to mark up the eBook by 43% (so as to give 70% of the gross to the publisher), that was a natural result. Amazon doesn't get a 43% markup on their hardbacks (at least not in the best sellers section).

    The problem that small book sellers have isn't that eBooks are priced lower than hardbacks. The problem is that Amazon's markup is so much lower than theirs. Amazon sells books close to the price that small book sellers *pay* (presumably because Amazon buys direct from publishers rather than through third parties like Ingram Micro). Now, for hardbacks and paperbacks, at least the book sellers can offer immediate gratification. But if they are competing with eBooks, they lose that advantage. That's why publishers are trying to make eBooks more expensive than the associated paper books.

    This is especially egregious with modern books. The publisher receives a digital copy of the book. They have to do extra work to convert it into a printable form. Yet they act like it is harder to convert their digital copy into one readable by Kindle or an ePub device. And then the book is digitized forever, giving them a steady revenue stream for the ridiculously long copyright period.

    The other thing that Scalzi ignores is that publishers can't have legitimate reasons for maintaining the relative prices of paper and digital books. That's illegal. They already lost that case.

    Ideally, publishers will realize that they should charge slightly less for a digital copy than a paper copy of a book but pay authors the same either way. That will cover their lower costs on a digital copy (no printing, shipping, or returns costs). The net result should be eBooks that are slightly discounted relative to the paper books sold on the same site.

    We don't know what's happening inside the Amazon/Hachette negotiations. There's some evidence that Amazon wasn't previously asking for a digital discount. Their launch price was to pay the same for digital copies as for paper copies. Are they still doing that? Or has Amazon been trying to insist on deeper discounts?

  56. price = time to read X quality of material by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The initial price of an ebook should be determined by the time it takes to read multiplied by a quality index based off of previous work by the author. Then the price should decline gradually due to number of days on the market until the work is no longer under copyright and is freely available.

    Actually, i believe this should be applied to all digital goods.

  57. What Publishers Do. by Balinares · · Score: 2

    Whenever this topic comes up, we end up discussing what publishers really do.

    Every time, someone with some knowledge of how the publishing industry works turns up and explains how there is this long road between the author's draft and the book in your hands, made of editing, copy-editing, typesetting, cover design, marketing and more, and the publisher is the truck driver that sees the draft to the end of that road. That's correct.

    But I've come to the conclusion that none of that is the one irreplaceable service publishers perform in the system.

    All of the above can, to some extent, and for a fee, be performed just as well by independent contractors. (There are great independent editors out there, and aren't we all glad for that.)

    The one important thing publishers do is: they take the loss on books that don't earn out.

    Now hear me out.

    I know how we, Slashdot readers, tend to think about those things. In our minds, if the book doesn't earn out (that is, it brings in less money than the publisher gave the author as an advance), then it's got to be someone's fault, right? Bad writer, bad publisher. Something.

    Wrong.

    The thing is, a successful book requires a lot of factors. Great writing doesn't suffice. The public is fickle. Yesterday, supernatural romance sold by the truckload, now it doesn't. GRRM was a great writer for decades before you even heard of him. Harry Potter didn't start hitting it big until three or four books into the series. Word of mouth matters, but only after the readership has exceeded a certain critical mass. And until then... someone has to take the loss.

    Because, here's the thing. GRRM, Rowling, they're outliers. Many books -- most books, AFAIK -- don't quite earn out. Many deserve to, but don't, because that's not how the world works.

    But they still got written, you still read some of them, you still loved some of them, and that only happened because someone, somewhere, was willing to pay an author to keep writing, and take the risk that the great book in their hands may not earn that money back.

    And that, friends, is what publishers really do.

    --

    -- B.
    This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
    1. Re:What Publishers Do. by iMactheKnife · · Score: 1

      Whenever this topic comes up, we end up discussing what publishers really do.

      Every time, someone with some knowledge of how the publishing industry works turns up and explains how there is this long road between the author's draft and the book in your hands, made of editing, copy-editing, typesetting, cover design, marketing and more, and the publisher is the truck driver that sees the draft to the end of that road. That's correct.

      But I've come to the conclusion that none of that is the one irreplaceable service publishers perform in the system.

      All of the above can, to some extent, and for a fee, be performed just as well by independent contractors. (There are great independent editors out there, and aren't we all glad for that.)

      The one important thing publishers do is: they take the loss on books that don't earn out.

      Now hear me out.

      I know how we, Slashdot readers, tend to think about those things. In our minds, if the book doesn't earn out (that is, it brings in less money than the publisher gave the author as an advance), then it's got to be someone's fault, right? Bad writer, bad publisher. Something.

      Wrong.

      The thing is, a successful book requires a lot of factors. Great writing doesn't suffice. The public is fickle. Yesterday, supernatural romance sold by the truckload, now it doesn't. GRRM was a great writer for decades before you even heard of him. Harry Potter didn't start hitting it big until three or four books into the series. Word of mouth matters, but only after the readership has exceeded a certain critical mass. And until then... someone has to take the loss.

      Because, here's the thing. GRRM, Rowling, they're outliers. Many books -- most books, AFAIK -- don't quite earn out. Many deserve to, but don't, because that's not how the world works.

      But they still got written, you still read some of them, you still loved some of them, and that only happened because someone, somewhere, was willing to pay an author to keep writing, and take the risk that the great book in their hands may not earn that money back.

      And that, friends, is what publishers really do.

      So, if the Ebook does not sell, the publisher eats the inventory?

      Do you think we are stupid enough to believe that?

    2. Re:What Publishers Do. by rochrist · · Score: 1

      What does that have to do with what the OP said?

    3. Re:What Publishers Do. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If the eBook doesn't sell, the publisher eats all the costs of editing, proofreading, marketing, etc. I don't know how the advance works out, but I suspect that the publisher also eats that expense.

      The expense of printing a relatively small run of physical books is a lot smaller than those costs. You could test this yourself by seeing how much it'll cost to get a few thousand copies of a nice paperback published, as long as you present everything needed for printing (including the cover illo, etc.). That's been viable for decades now, except for the issue that generally almost all copies stayed unsold in the author's basement or garage.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  58. Hello past, meet future by miltonw · · Score: 1

    Pricing ebooks at 15+ is a ripoff and the consumers know it. There is no manufacturing, no distribution, no storage, no over-printing, no loss from damage/theft. It's almost all profit. If you sell a dozen or a million, the costs to "manufacture" and "distribute" all the ebooks sold is just about the same. Unlike physical books the "manufacturing" and "distribution" costs do not increase as quantities rise.

    So why not price them to sell more?

    Oh, no! We have to protect the old way of doing business! To hell with the readers. To hell with authors getting their books into the hands of more readers. To hell with the future. The past has worked very well, thank you very much.

    1. Re:Hello past, meet future by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the books spring, fully formed, onto the internet.

    2. Re:Hello past, meet future by miltonw · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understood what I wrote or even what the debate is about.

  59. books are only entertainment only for idiots by bingoUV · · Score: 1

    There are a lot more books than books for entertainment. Idiots don't know this.

    --
    Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  60. Nobody has it right by DriveDog · · Score: 1

    After reading a number of comments, I see that many of them fall into either the "Amazon is evil" or "Publishers are evil" camps. Guess what? Just like politics, it comes down to choosing the lesser evil. Neither one works to serve consumers.

  61. Interchangeable units by iMactheKnife · · Score: 1

    Most Ebooks ARE interchangeable units of entertainment. A few authors and titles stand out, but those are generally of interest only to a niche audience. I buy over 50 Ebooks a year for my Kindle, varying from a highly technical textbook on molecular evolution (free!!!) to a Science Fiction novel by a great author ($7.99).

    Let's face it, you are buying a brief reading experience, not a leather-bound pride-of-ownership thing for your smoking room.

  62. Re:Disengenous [sic] by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

    Quick, name one publicly right-wing midlist fiction writer currently published by one of the big 6.

    Take all the time you want to think about it.

    Non-fiction and (especially) celebrity/best-sellers who can write their own contract are treated differently.

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
  63. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by rochrist · · Score: 1

    Generally, they aren't. Typically, the e-book will be priced around a dollar less than the PB.

  64. Re: Disengenous [sic] by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

    The punk assed bitching over the Hugo's this year, both over the original speaker and the hilarity that was Sad Puppies II shows that you're full of shit. There are maybe 4 authors that are obviously right wing and published by the big 6 in fiction.

  65. Re: Disengenous [sic] by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

    There are maybe 4 authors that are obviously right wing and published by the big 6 in fiction.

    And none of them got started in the last 15 years or so, they're all established names who sell too many books to justify dumping. You know TOR's editors hate that Card is their biggest selling author, but they can't come up with an excuse to drop him as long as he still sells well.

    Anyone newer than that will be with Baen, or one of the smaller or indie imprints.

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
  66. Re:Hardcovers? What about paperbacks?? by MiSaunaSnob · · Score: 1

    Because you don't have to rewind?