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The High-Tech Warfare Behind the Israel - Hamas Conflict
Taco Cowboy writes The Israel — Hamas conflict in Gaza is not only about bombs, missiles, bullets, but also about cyberwarfare, battles of the mind over social media, smart underground tunnels and cloud-based missile launching systems. The tunnels that Hamas has dug deep beneath Gaza are embedded with high tech gadgets, courtesy of Qatar, which has funded Hamas with billions to equipped their tunnels with intelligent sensors which are networked to control centers enabling the command and control staff to quickly notify operatives nearby that IDF units are advancing inside a certain tunnel, allowing for rapid deployment of attack units and the setting up of bobby traps inside the tunnel.
In addition, Hamas has automated its rocket firing system using networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers. "Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken," said Aviad Dadon, a senior cyber-security adviser at several Israeli government ministries. While Doha is allowing Hamas to use its technology to fight Israel, it's their own cyber-security the leaders of Qatar are worried about. For the Qataris, the war between Israel and Hamas is a proving ground to see how their investments in cyber systems have paid of — Qatar is very worried that one of its Gulf rivals — specifically Saudi Arabia — will use technology to attack it, and Qatar spends a great deal of money each year on shoring up its cyber-technology.
In addition, Hamas has automated its rocket firing system using networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers. "Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken," said Aviad Dadon, a senior cyber-security adviser at several Israeli government ministries. While Doha is allowing Hamas to use its technology to fight Israel, it's their own cyber-security the leaders of Qatar are worried about. For the Qataris, the war between Israel and Hamas is a proving ground to see how their investments in cyber systems have paid of — Qatar is very worried that one of its Gulf rivals — specifically Saudi Arabia — will use technology to attack it, and Qatar spends a great deal of money each year on shoring up its cyber-technology.
Just another article that makes big claims yet shockingly thin on any details. How are we on /. meant to have any discussion on this when there's nothing tech-worthy - just some questionable allegations.
Weird. I'm quite sure there was a conflict even before Hamas existed.
As far back as Vietnam (and probably long before), insurgents quickly learned that to stay near their launchers while engaging a technologically superior foe meant a quick death. The Viet Cong used mirrors, doorbells, and other low tech to monitor their tunnels to great effect.
If Hamas were funded with billions, they would not be limited to firing 500-Euro worth DIY rockets... But then again the article is from "timesofisrael.com", which I suspect is a strong believer in the idea that the entire world is conspiring to help Hamas bring terror over Israel, and whoever thinks otherwise is obviously promoting antisemitism. /. was not about promoting a particular political agenda - even if it is thrown a thin "tech" veil...
I thought
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
I wasn't aware British police was active in Gaza.
"...networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers."
That's some high tech shit right there! Thank's for luring me in... As per usual...
Although there's a measure of efficacy that can only be achieved in real time conflict, there's a downside.
The technology is also exposed to your enemy, theoretically allowing different defense methods to be tested.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
A plague on both your Houses Politicians , Military , Hamas, IDF. You are both as bad as each other in this genocide by mutual attrition. I just wish the rest of the world would withdraw all aid from all parties and leave you to get on with it or settle it depending on the true will amongst the civilian population.
Yes it would end in a bloodbath and genocide one way or the other I don't presume to know which way but then at least it would be settled instead of an ongoing blood feud for another 2000 years.
That's not an article about the high tech warfare behind the Israel-Hamas conflict. It's an article about the alleged use of some pretty run-of-the-mill technology by one side (Hamas) with no reference to the actual sophisticated technology used by the other side (Israel). If the article in itself isn't necessarily so, the phrasing of the headline and the summary here is an attempt to portray this conflict as something other than the massively one-sided affair that it actually is. It's a whitewash pure and simple. I wish both sides would just stop killing each other but seriously, "cloud-based launching software"? So Hamas can launch unguided rockets without having to stand next to them. Sounds pretty nasty compared to sophisticated air defence, MBTs, total air superiority and massed artillery.
Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth. How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!
Strange, anytime I hear from someone who is accused of being anti-Israeli all they talk about is how Israel lies about the impact of Hamas attacks, betrays any agreements it makes and won't be happy until there are no more Palestinians left to persecute, and then that person usually accuses the Western Media of ignoring all this.
Ever consider that the issue is more complicated than one side good, one side evil?
The moment Israel returns to their pre-1945 borders, Hamas stops shooting, period.
oh, please, just stop trying to justify what Israel is doing. They didn't even really know who actually killed those three people when they started bombing. They still don't know.
If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate. The American revolutionaries were also considered terrorists as was Ghandi and Nelson Mandela. However, I don’t support Hamas’ use of violence to further their desire for a sovereign state. In fact, the state of Israel itself was founded a ‘terrorist organisation’ - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J... "The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period." - well that's great. But you realise Hamas are firing because they live in an occupation and under siege? They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity. Israel has ignored its commitment to a 2-state solution in 2009. In 2012 it made agreements for a ceasefire but began laying siege to Gaza and throughout 2013 largely ignored any attempts of establishing peace (note: during this period Hamas had not killed or kidnapped a single Israeli civilian). In April this year, the talks collapsed as Abbas sought Palestinian membership in 15 UN conventions and reconciled with Hamas, and Israel made a surprise announcement of plans for 700 new settlements and refused to free a last batch of Palestinian prisoners which included Israeli-Arab citizens. That was April this year, before any of this conflict. Israel made clear it doesn't want Palestinians to pursue a non-violent route to statehood either. There you have it, if Israel wants peace it must offer the Palestinians what they have a right to - a fully functioning state with control over its own future. Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.
Where is the "-1, delusional paranoid idiot" mod? Guess I'll have to settle for troll.
"Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken,"
So let me see if I understand what you're saying: A bunch of guys who are at war set up a rocket launcher with a timer, then go away leaving it unguarded so that anyone can walk up to it and, oh, I don't know, shut it off, blow it up, steal it, etc.?
Gimme a break.
Exactly. Once they stop defending their homeland and surrender to the occupying forces the conflict will stop.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Since when is Slashdot a pro Israel propaganda outlet? This "story" about Hamas' high tech weapons is supposed to make Israel's genocidal orgy look justified?
Fuck. That.
"The Truth About Israel and Palestine": http://youtu.be/iKzlh9kN4HI
One country's terrorist is another country's guerrilla fighter. Hamas started shooting because Israel has blockaded Gaza for years - many countries have gone to war over far less than that.
The summary says Qatar is worried of being attacked and overtaken in a technological arms race, by Saudi Arabia. Really? Since when?
From TFA:
I'd like something a little more substantive to back this up. The paragraph concludes:
Sorry, I gotta take any news value coming from TFA with a chunk of salt.
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
That Israel has been manipulating public opinion through its control of the media is obvious at this stage.
Look how far from the discussion is the fact that this whole conflict started with an escalation over the murdered teenagers. Murders that, to this day, have not been investigated.
Israel used that to engage in unprovoked attacks, and then used the resulting response as pretext for this genocidal outburst.
Those are the facts. All that has happened since is because Israel had every intention of using some pretext to engage in slaughter. It is just that simple.
The sole source of information for the article is "Aviad Dadon of Israeli cyber-security firm AdoreGroup." Is that an independent source?
What do most Americans know about the background to the Israel Palestinian conflict, which has been going for 67 years?
Sure, I'm willing to believe that Hamas has some technology behind what they're doing, but it surely can't be anywhere near as advanced as what the IDF has. The Israel / Hamas conflict is about as mismatched as it would be if the US went to war with Bolivia. I'm sure if that happened, some people in the American press would point out that the Bolivians have rifles, while forgetting to mention that we have nuclear subs and airfraft carriers.
Facts have a liberal bias.
Agreed. The rest of the world is getting tired of the temper tantrums that have been going on for decades now. If the only peace you psychotics can work towards is a Carthaginian peace, then quit being half-assed about it. A lot of us in the US are no longer willing to pay to keep you from annihilating each other.
Entitlement, that's funny.
What entitles you to have entitlement? Where does it begin? Where does it end?
Who is actually entitled to own that piece magical dirt in the middle east?
Is it Hamas, because the 'evil Jew' refuses to make peace? And because they were there before the Jews came? Is it the 'evil Jews", because they were there before the Ottoman Empire practically kicked them out if they didn't want to convert to Islam? At least here we know that Judaism existed first.
What most of us can agree with is that the population suffers in this conflict. Neither civilian Palestinians nor civilian Israeli are at fault here. Most of them didn't chose to be born into these worlds.
The first wide spread use of the word "terrorist" in mass-media afaik is in German second world war propaganda to describe the Soviet partisans on the Eastern front.
Every European with an inkling of historical knowledge is going to look at any state calling any group "terrorists" with at least a modicum of suspicion.
As an aside, does anyone else see some similarities in the current situation in the West-bank/Gaza and the Jewish uprising in the ghetto of Warsaw?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
What is this junk?
Israeli propaganda to prop up the idea that hamas is somehow any kind of match to the Israeli war machine?
How about some an exposé on the tech behind the their automated rocket defense system that pretty much doesn't require them to do anything other watch em go pop in the sky.
But hey any excuse for an unnecessary pummeling to genocidal levels ay?
Might as well go all the way? No?
Keep some around, sow some seed and repeat all other again every decade or so?
Wouldn't want to deny Israeli all the sadistic fun they seem to be having harvesting such misery from others. Not at all - go right ahead, the rest of the world appears to gut to stop you or five a damn.
Agreed, they're killing Palestinians and doing the same propaganda they always do, to pretend they are a credible threat that justifies the genocide.
Lets not kid ourselves, Gaza's problems are the invasion of settlers from Israel, and what Israel is doing is nothing but murder.
Your ISP catches you stealing three videos or launching three rockets and you get cut off. Its right there in your Terms Of Service.
Cloud-based, probably wireless command an control systems are pretty esy to rednedr useless by a technologically advanced enemy like Israel. Heck, just fire up a cell phone jammer.
Have gnu, will travel.
It's more sickening when you realize they deliberately targetted the school Israel just bombed. There would be a meeting where that school would be chosen, the coordinates entered and the missile launched, and at the meeting they'd have their propaganda unit there to plan the cover-up.
They're just murderers with political clout, nothing else.
I do feel that the Arabs are getting a raw deal in relation to the west and Israel there needs to be some really deep thinking going on. For example it is just dandy to have a timer and an auto launch ability on these small missiles but where does it lead? If one finds that most often the hostiles are not near the launch site the launch site will still be hit hard and probably some other place, perhaps randomly selected, in hope of getting the point across. Naturally hatred will result and it may be that large area saturation bombing starts to take place. And if that level of strike does not work the US and Israel are faced with two choices. One is pulling out and letting the region descend into total chaos and violence. The other more drastic choice is total war and the elimination of the regions existence. Considering the military history of the US as well as the ability and the readily available weaponry this conflict could end when places such as Palestine are simply exterminated. The suicide bomber like tactics are not something well addressed by a conventional military as uniforms are not used. But we are very, very good at things like carpet bombing or fire bombing major cities. I am suggesting that the terror tactics can never lead to any victory unless the US somehow decides it is OK to lose the region which is very unlikely.
wouldn't it be a hoot if Hamas was the creation of Israel?
Israel was created by the CIA in the 1940's. Disgusting creatures like you are there to create a distraction that the christians would buy into.
If that happens there will be a real genocide of the jews.
And this time no is going to come and stop it. Not a single jew will be left alive anywhere on the planet.
"A plague on both your houses" = "I've no idea what your problems are and I can't be bothered to find out". Or very often anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N6ZLcoSnlU&list=UUNpAwV6GlFst1x3jmqCgYbQ
How the hell did this piece of unsubstantiated propagandic crap make it into the Slashdot feed?
Straight from a "reliable" Israeli source, no less.
How about this one?
Israeli military announce they will bomb al-Shifa hospital in Gaza
The difference between those two stories? The second one is probably true, and it shows the true face of this conflict.
Also, please remember who set up Hamas in the first place. (Hint: It wasn't Palestine.)
Ahh yes, YouTube user "ziv121213". He's world-renowned as an expert on the Israeli side of the debate and would never upload a false video just to troll people.
You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
That's right. And in this case, it's appropriate. There are so many lies, half-truths, and propaganda coming from both sides that it's nearly impossible to determine what's actually happening and therefore make a sound, logical decision about "picking sides".
The only logical course of action is not to pick sides, and stay out of the conflict altogether.
I'm all for supplying humanitarian aid: food, medicine, etc. I'm completely against any military aid for either side.
Gaza started as only a city. It's history is long and colorful, and smattered with conquests by many other civilizations, including Egypt, the Byzantines, the Ottomans, the Asyrians, Great Britain, and many others, the list goes on, spanning about 4000 years. It wasn't until the 20th century that Gaza was officially given to the Palestinians as anything more than a mere conquered (many times over), city, and it wasn't until 1948, that a Palestinian government, was officially recognized by the world at large as anything but a band of nomadic tribes, wandering around the Middle East.
Until 1948, Palestine was a part of Israel, within it's borders, even though modern times didn't recognize Israel as it's own political entity, history shows Israel something larger than a mere city for more than 5000 years. Yes, it has also changed hands over the centuries, but by and far, it's been governed by the same people far longer than Gaza was by the Palestinians.
It was 20th century politics and the UN that finally enacted a Palestine, and it was the UN that gave more than just a city to the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been fighting a war to take over more than what's theirs for far longer than any can remember, and they've been in another country's/state's land wandering around homeless until the 20th century.
This is not about religion, or religious ideologies, it's about politics, and empire building. The Israeli's have had control of that land for far longer than any one civilization, it's part of their territory, they were forced to give it up by the UN, who really have no true authority to give an other's real estate away. The Palestinian government, and by that governance, the people, have been aggressors against the government and people who, historically, have controlled that territory longer than anyone else in history.
Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener.
If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate.
True enough. And it's not just "terrorism" that gets used this way. It's a common ploy in any propaganda.
Taken at face value, though, it means "pursuing your goals by means of inflicting terror", as in do horrible things to scare people into doing your will or at least acquiescing to your doings. Question then is, does hamas do that?
From this very safe very long distance I say, no. The rockets aren't effective at killing people and by now everybody knows this. So it's not about the terror (any longer). What they're instead trying to do is to provoke Israel into reacting, then they sacrifice their own by using them as human shields, generating a death toll that then gets used to stir up an "Israel is killing us!" frenzy. And it's working pretty well.
It is cynically, callously using lives to try and secure political gains, but not really terrorism.
"The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period." - well that's great. But you realise Hamas are firing because they live in an occupation and under siege?
They're firing because they're pursuing the goal of total annihilation of Israel. The occupation and under siege parts are fairly hard to make stick unless you squint really hard and wilfully ignore both hamas' own actions and the parts where Israel gave up plenty occupied territory complete with infrastructure for their mortal enemies to live and thrive in. You can make the case that when two are fighting two have some guilt, but that is not this argument. This is pure one-sided entirely self-serving rationalisation. It's popular enough in the Arab world, but still one-sided.
Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.
Are they? Have they? I think they've been given more than their fair share and thrown much of it away with the explicit goal of trying to exterminate Israel. I also think that hamas isn't nearly as entitled as it thinks it is. Again, this is propaganda. Don't believe me? Well, you've been busily pointing at previous doings, so let me add one 1977 interview. Since you know your history so well, you know exactly what I'm talking about and also why your claims to entitlement are that much bunk.
"networked, cloud-based launching software provided by Qatar which can set off a rocket from any distance, and set them to go off at a specific time, using timers"
What's the difference between this and cell-phone activated stuff they've been using for years? (source: any war movie featuring IEDs)
It's on the Internet.. and they've found out how to use TIME CLOCKS!?
Are you a troll or are you really that nutty? Israel would be crushed by the USA. I'm not from either country but can tell which is militarily more powerful.
Or you could actually take the two seconds to look up his channel and see this is the kind of shit Israel is actually feeding their citizens. But whatever, keep acting like a snarky twat online.
http://www.popularresistance.org/chomsky-israels-west-bank-plans-leave-palestinians-very-little/
If this discussion is going to descend in to 'Hamas as terrorists' then we should recognise the use of the word 'terrorism' as an adjective used to vilify one side and make an opposing side seem legitimate.
Except that it isn't just Israel identifying them as such. I believe United States and Egypt strongly agree.
I donâ(TM)t support Hamasâ(TM) use of violence to further their desire for a sovereign state
Hamas certainly doesn't want "their own state". Palestinians located in Gaza do, but Hamas most certainly doesn't care - they are more interested in destruction of Israel and would be more than willing to sacrifice every innocent civilian in Gaza.
They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity.
Hamas is unwilling (and never have) to recognize Israel's right to exist. I would think that would be a prerequisite for negotiation. You know, where the other side allows for the possibility of your existence?
Don't call them Hamas terrorists for pursuing what they're entitled to and have been brutally denied even when seeking it peacefully.
Palestinians are not Hamas terrorists. Hamas, however, is a terrorist organization, that had done terrorist acts to Egypt too. Have you ever wondered why why demand that Egypt open up their borders? Why do you think the Gaza-Egypt border is just as closed as the Gaza-Israeli one? Muslim on Muslim hate?
Seriously? Two state solution? Refresh my memory - who is it who has *rejected* a 2-state solution repeatedly? Because I'm pretty sure it wasn't Israel.
Palestinians rejected 2-state proposals in 1937 and 1947 which were *accepted* by the Jewish leadership. Why? Because the Arabs were too busy shouting that Israel had no right to exist. Then the Arab-Israeli war (1948) and the Six day war (1967), as well as a constant stream of attacks and sabotage by Palestinian militants convinced Israel that the Arabs had no real interest in negotiations or peace - in fact, Hamas' charter specifically names their objective:
In more recent years, Israel has stated its willingness to give up nearly the entirety of the lands they gained in 1967 in exchange for peaceful coexistence, but even that isn't good enough - the rockets keep falling, and the bombs keep exploding.
But yeah, given Israel's history - of both being willing to accept a 2-state solution, and defending themselves against attacks by organizations hell-bent on their destruction, I can see how you'd conclude that Israel is the one who is dead-set on not accepting a 2-state solution.
But please, bring up settlements now. Let's talk about the settlements that Israel evacuated in the Sinai and Gaza when it withdrew from those territories. Do you really think if they actually felt the Palestinian leaders were *serious* about recognizing Israel and living peacefully alongside them, that the Israeli government would - for a single second - hesitate to evacuate the other settlements as well?
Egypt is blockading Gaza as strongly as Israel. Why is Hamas unequal in sharing their love?
[quote]note: during this period Hamas had not killed or kidnapped a single Israeli civilian[/quote]
Hint: If there are no casualties that doesn't mean they haven't tried to.
What is the connection between cyber-warfare and booby traps in tunnels? Is there any?
Please do come, we will be waiting for your pathetic army that can't even win from kids with stones or fend off some DIY fireworks. Idiotic and uncivilised bunch of assholes sums it up pretty much! You might be able to put a dent in the exhausted and oppressed Gaza population but don't event think for a second your army means anything significant outside your so-called country.
Oh... So the three dead teenagers had nothing to do with it?
What kinds of utter BS propaganda is this?
Did you know
>>The military announced early Sunday that 23-year-old Hadar Goldin of the Givati infantry brigade had been killed in battle on Friday.
So they bombed away and killed 35+ Palestinians on a lie. Buddy wasn't kidanpped he was killed in battle.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Nazi faggots from Israel will be destroyed like Nazi faggots from anywhere else. You fucked up.
What do you mean "if"? It is being accomplished right now. Obama and the rest of the world's leaders support us. I do not care about the opinions of the maggots of goyim countries like you.
Please. We could bring our army from West Bank to the US West Coast and Obama would still be forced to make excuses for us. Aren't you paying attention? The Jews have won their war against the anti-semitism of the world.
Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?
Wait a minute. Where is this summary even remotely pro-anything but technology? It's simply outlining the high tech that's being employed in this conflict, it by no means draws any conclusions of that conflict.
I personally feel the post is in just the right context for a /. article, its about technology, not about who's using it (though there's talk of who's supplied whom, but still fails to cast a good or bad tilt on it.)
On the contrary, this busts the myth that Qatar is an ally of the US. Either that, or that Qatar knows that the US doesn't give a rat's ass about Israel, and is absolutely fine w/ Qatar backing Hamas.
Absolute bullshit. Hamas was founded in 1987 and is relentlessly attacking Israel ever since. There were no blockages back than. The blockages were created BECAUSE of Hamas's attacks. Not the other way round. Inform yourself.
The ignorance of deluded pro-Hamas people is astounding.
Not even a week ago: Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline
Hamas can't even power their social media campaign (i.e. their lifeblood) continuously, but we're supposed to believe they can coordinate rocket fire over the same internet while also deploying Aperture science into their tunnels?
And this from an unnamed IDF contractor talking to a media outlet that has quite literally called for the genocide of Palestinians?
Good job, guys.
And don't you think for a second that you are actually in charge of your own country. We tell your president what to say, do and what to order your military to do. Besides, your country is bankrupt and will soon crumble.
terror is a tactic, not an ism dude. never judge a man till you walk a kilometer in his shoes.
will work for dragon quest localization
We aren't concerned with the opinions of the world. Yes, we're handily crushing them. We don't give a fuck what the world has to say about it. We will rid Israel of them, and when we're done we'll get started on the rest of the world.
Blockading terrorists is necessary, and attempting to justify their barbaric, mindless brutality reveals your antisemitic ignorance.
If the rest of the world "got out of it" and Israel had no scruples it could be over tomorrow.
History suggests this would not be the case. After the 2012 ceasefire no rockets were fired at Israel for 3 months, not one, yet Israel continued to attacked Gaza with 287 documented vioations.
Putting new technology and strategies to the test in a crucible with absolute consequences.
Bullshit it was recognised by the USA counter to advice from just about everyone else as the President wanted the Jewish vote. Given that everyone else in the developed world was shattered after WW2 though no one could do anything about it.
Enjoy the nukes. You earned what you get.
I thought the UK & USA had quite a lot to do with winning WW2. I must have missed the huge fleets Israel had.
Absolute bullshit. Hamas was founded in 1987 and is relentlessly attacking Israel ever since. There were no blockages back than. The blockages were created BECAUSE of Hamas's attacks. Not the other way round. Inform yourself.
The ignorance of deluded pro-Hamas people is astounding.
Then why where they blockading the Fatah areas as well?
location of U.S. Central Command’s Forward Headquarters and the Combined Air Operations Center.
Let's stop pretending here, okay? Just like with Iran/Iraq, you make more money when you play both sides.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Look up the Stern gang sometime. Or doesn't anti British terrorism count?
A quick FYI: antizionism is not the same as antisemitism
What you say is irrelevant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13331522
Quote : "Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US, EU, Canada and Japan due to its long record of attacks and its refusal to renounce violence. Under the group's charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel."
"The rockets aren't effective at killing people "
Irrelevant. They do kill people and constant daily alerts do disrupt normal life.
Mod this propaganda.
Korma: Good
That won't stop us from sucking Quatari dick to maintain access to their ports. Besides, it never hurts to be the arms dealer in a proxy war.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
You seriously don't know what you are talking about.
While the US were the first to recognise Israel, other countries followed suit immediately afterwards. The second recognition cam from Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi's Iran (!!!), followed by Guatemala, Iceland, Nicaragua, Romania, and Uruguay. The Soviet Union was the first nation to fully recognize Israel de jure on 17 May 1948, followed by Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Ireland, and South Africa.
STFU & GTFO. You idiocy is showing.
You obviously missed the part where I hinted at the USA throwing its weight around. This lead later to the Suez crisis. You really are a clueless fuck so why don't you STFU & GTFO?
Terrorism refers to a specific tactic, the deliberate targeting of civilians to create fear and terror in the population rather than for a specific military objective such as the destruction of industry. If Hamas is launching rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians, then they are engaging in terrorism, pure and simple. Israel does not have a policy of deliberately targeting civilians, although some days it's pretty hard to tell that from the news. The irony is that while Israel might not be engaging in terrorism as a matter of policy, their military activity does far more to terrorize the civilian population and results in far more civilian deaths that Hamas. So I guess that raises a question- from a moral standpoint, which is worse? Deliberately targeting civilians but not being that good at hitting them? Or deliberately avoiding civilians, but not being that good at missing them?
You should ask that the Al-Aqsa Intifada. The only blockage of the West Bank is by a border wall. Reducing terrorism by >90%.
Just like with any closed (aka normal) border there are regulated transit checkpoints. Nothing unnormal.
But maybe the US is blockading Mexico by building a wall in Texas?
Why is Israel put in a positive light? those bastards stole palestine's land with the imperialistic support of US and UK and now they are carrying out the genocide of it's people. Please stop spreading lies
Seems to me that you are a little lopsided there.
Four teens werr kidnapped and murdered in two separate instances. First was three israeli teens then a palistimian teen. It was after the pslistimian teen was murdered that Hamas started lobbing rockets at Israel.
So either you are ignoring the facts or you are some how construing the second murder as the official state responce from Israel. In either case, you got your facts wrong.
The gas chambers aren't destroyed. I was standing in them during a mandatory school trip in the 90s. You could see them yourself if your hate wouldn't blind you and your ignorance and stupidity wouldn't make it impossible for you to get outside of your tiny twisted world.
The gas chambers exist, just like the Holocaust happened and the tunnels are existing.
Bullshit. Hamas is firing rockets at Israel since several YEARS. Until now 12000 rockets. You got your facts wrong.
You such a deluded braindead idiot. It's not even funny anymore. The Suez crisis was in 1956. It was the SECOND Israeli-Arab war. Not the first. It had NOTHING to do with the founding and recognition of Israel.
Serioulsy dud. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
Of course, it depends on what you mean by 'recognize Israel's right to exist". If it means that the Palestinians are supposed to say that it's fine for the Israelis to keep their own separate state while they're confined to their little Bantustans, then it's no wonder that they're not so keen on doing this. The two-state solution is literally apartheid since it involves separating the inhabitants of Palestine based on their ethnicity/religion and letting them develop separately.
You can go and have a look at Auschwitz if you like. They converted the gas chamber to an air shelter but there are more than enough remains and other evidence. For instance all the ovens.
I hate what Israel is doing to the Palestinians but I have no doubt about what the Nazis where doing and it was a barely conceivable evil. Talk with the people involved in the war, I have (although there are fewer and fewer still living). Incidentally it wasn't just the Jewish people they massacred, but gypsies, & the physically and mentally disabled as well. There where probably even more that I don't know of.
No one should own that piece of dirt. It should be made uninhabitable, preferably by storing/dumping the world's nuclear waste precisely there. That would end the conflict. These two people have clearly demonstrated that they can't live in peace. They can't even try to work it out without destroying for the other side. BOTH are equally bad. Condemn them from ever setting their foot there again and make it impossible to actually live there. Sorry, but they can emigrate to other countries. They have had their chance and they didn't take it.
They'll stop fighting when Israel pursues a 2-state strategy with sincerity.
Can you provide ANY evidence for this assertion? As evidence that you are wrong I enter this phrase from the Hamas charter: "...initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion[.]” There is more that suggests you are mistaken, do you have any evidence to support what you claim?
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
Yes, and the USA & the UK ended up on different sides partly due to the recognition by the USA of Israel
Seriously you Shut. The. Fuck. Up
This posting has been sponsored by Hamas.
There are other groups that support a Palestinian state that aren't crazed religious fanatics. Don't pretend that you have to support Hamas to support the Palestinian plight.
I don't agree with that wall either
I don't sympathize with the psycho you're replying to, but you do realize that the Israeli army is fully capable of reducing Gaza to ash, right? They are showing /restraint/ by causing as few casualties as they are.
Fuck hamas, they know that firing the rockets from civilian areas will cause civilian casualties and accomplish nothing strategically for a military move. Cowards firing rockets behind woman/children knowing full well that Israel will retaliate against those launch positions. That's some cold shit hamas is doing.
Anyways its Israels land and they won more of it when the moron countries around them decided to invade, to the victor goes the spoils. wah wah wah.
To the victors go the spoilts. Quit your whining.
I live in Israel, in an area which is inside the "green line" (i.e. - it was Israel since 1948). All around the town I live in are Arab cities, all of them also inside the green line, all of their inhabitants Israeli citizens with equal rights to me (though some missing obligations). If a two state solution is scheduled to go through (and unless "areas exchange" change that), all of those currently Israeli citizens are scheduled to remain so.
I suggest you get your facts straight when claiming separation on ethnicity. I am literally[1] holding my breath waiting for your apology for wrongly using "apartheid".
As for the area being small: I'm anxiously waiting to hear your proposed solution. I'm sure it is going to be enlightened, grounded on facts and peaceful.
Shachar
1 - Obviously, I'm not literally holding my breath. Since, however, I don't expect you to apologies either, the two parts of the sentence are equally true.
The Jews have won their war against the anti-semitism of the world.
How unfortunate. How will some Jews justify being complete arseholes now?
Israel has said it will only stop once it has destroyed all the tunnels that the Palestinians built. That implies that even if they surrendered immediately Israel would continue to keep soldiers on the ground there until the demolition work was complete.
I also somehow doubt that Israel would lift the blockade on the area, dismantle their wall, demolish their settlements and then allow the Palestinians to live freely and prosper. The current round of fighting might end for a while but the conflict would certainly not be resolved.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
That Israel has been manipulating public opinion through its control of the media is obvious at this stage.
Zionist propaganda has probably been influencing the media for at least a century. It, no doubt, played it's part in the creation of Israel in 1948.
Look how far from the discussion is the fact that this whole conflict started with an escalation over the murdered teenagers. Murders that, to this day, have not been investigated.
There dosn't appear to be any obvious connection between these murders and Gaza either.
Rockets fired since 2001. Blockade started in 2007.
What I wonder is, if the Palestinian have a time machine (which is the only explanation to this, as well as many other, rationalization of their actions), how come they are not rich enough to buy the allegedly pro-Israeli media?
Shachar
Two-state solution = apartheid. Would the ANC have accepted a two-state solution in South Africa, which would only have vindicated the racist ideology of white South Africans who claimed that blacks and whites had to be separate? That's something that pro-Israel people never understand. Whenever someone says 'apartheid', they'll talk to you about the Arab minority in Israel, which completely misses the point. Apartheid, in this case, refers to the fact that, in the area that is historically known as Palestine, there is apartheid in that the goal is to have a Jewish state and a Palestinian state even though both groups believe that they have claims over the entire land.
This is why it's very different from many other conflicts: in Ukraine, for instance, you could potentially partition the land since you have a rather clear line dividing east and west over language and political views. Same in (South) Sudan for instance where you could separate majority Muslim populations from majority Christian ones. Not so much in Palestine, at least if you go back to 1946 before there were large population transfers.
If you look at population statistics from that era, you find that Palestinians outnumbered Jews virtually everywhere. If you had had a free and fair referendum and assuming that people would have voted along ethnic lines (why would Jews vote against having their own state, why would Palestinians decide that they wanted to be ruled by Jews), the Jewish state would have been the Jaffa region, period. And that's a huge problem. The right to self-determination is not only for white people, even though it took Western countries close to 20 years to finally realize that. The Jewish people certainly had the right to go to Palestine, purchase land following willing-buyer-willing-seller principles and perhaps one day become a majority there. I believe in open borders, so I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when people claim that the fact that their ancestors may or may not have been forced to leave that area 2000 years ago means that they now have a right to exclude people who are currently living there. We all have roots somewhere in modern-day Kenya, that doesn't mean it's now okay for me to go and colonize that place. There's been invasions, etc. for thousands of years everywhere on earth and we don't go back 2000 or 3000 years to see who *really* has a claim on the land.
Good, that video's posted by David Duke. I know when I want an unbiased viewpoint of a conflict fueled by ethnic hatred, I'm going to ask the former grand wizard of the KKK, and avowed white nationalist and white supremacist what he thinks of the situation.
I'm sure he'll give a factual, objective response.
Is it Hamas, because the 'evil Jew' refuses to make peace? And because they were there before the Jews came? Is it the 'evil Jews", because they were there before the Ottoman Empire practically kicked them out if they didn't want to convert to Islam? At least here we know that Judaism existed first.
Just like the native american indians existed first in the US before they were fucked over by the european settlers who now rule the country and own all the land? if every country had to go back to the borders it had last time the Jewish people were actually in the promised land then the world would be very different. That is never going to happen though, and most people would not want it to.
The two state solution involves pretty much drawing the borders where they are now with the exception of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is sacred ground to Christianity, Islam and Judaism so the only fair option is that it is ruled by no single religion and is shared by all as the cradle of all religions. This is simply the only fair option.
Sure, there are extremists on the arab side who would like to drive into the sea, they have to realise that simply will not happen. There are also people within Israel though who view the promised land, as handed down to the Jews by god as sacred and that includes all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates rivers, these people also have to realise that driving that many Arabs from their current homes is also out of the question. Once all parties back away from these extremes only then will there be peace.
I dont read
Ah that's why Israel was founded under british protectorate?? Because brits where against it?
Boy, you are less intelligent than a cockroach.
can anyone deny that the state of Israel only exists because of terrorism?
A 20 year long battle of murder, mutilation, abduction, ransom, extortion and simple theft using bombs, mines, booby traps and snipers created Israel by stealing and yes that is the right word since Palestine was only 6% owned by Jews in 1946, until the Brits made clear they were going to hand the Arab's land to the invaders, land belonging to Arabs
The Jews did not inherit Palestine. You cannot inherit from your biblical ancestors what your great grandfather did not own
and thus, whatever force Hamas uses in retaliation for the aerial bombardment of Apartment buildings is justified in both law and morality.
Why is the State of Israel complaining that they are suffering from the very tactics they initiated?
If there is to be peace, the state of Israel must be dissolved and the land returned to the Arab people.
I invite the Russian Jews who rule and always have ruled the ersatz state of Israel to return to their homeland..in Russia.
Gays were mass murdered as well.
"Anyone who thinks they have dozens of people sitting next to launchers firing rockets each time there is a barrage is mistaken,"
Well, except for the civilians in the homes and schools surrounding the launch site who Hamas is using for human shields, that is.
That area has been inhabited by Jews for centuries. It's isn't an only arab area as you might imagine.
In addition in modern Israel 20% of the citizens are muslim arabs with the same rights as everyone.
It's the opposite of apartheid.
Calling a 2 state solution apartheid would be like calling California & Texas apartheid 'cause it isn't united with Mexico. (Whose areas once belonged to Mexico)
PS : The word Palestine that you mean is a modern invention. The ancient Palestine is something completely different.
And it doesn't help Israel in the least when the pro-Israelis repeatedly lie their asses off.
Above AC should be modded as informative as it highlights the social media aspect mentioned in the summary.
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
What you say is irrelevant.
I beg to differ.
Quote : "Hamas is designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US, EU, Canada and Japan due to its long record of attacks and its refusal to renounce violence.
That isn't the smartest counter to ggp's complaint that hamas is getting called terrorist to villify it. In fact, it's grist for their propaganda mill, for obviously it must be the Rich Jewish Lobby behind it, and so on, and so forth. It helps them play the poor downtrodden underdog at least in the eyes of their audience, being the rest of the Arab world. Since propaganda is a game of bending others' perception to your will, this helps them as least as much as hinders them.
Under the group's charter, Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel."
I don't think gp glossed over that.
"The rockets aren't effective at killing people "
Irrelevant. They do kill people and constant daily alerts do disrupt normal life.
The point was the rockets aren't effective at instilling fear. By extension, terrorism isn't effective if the targets refuse to be terrorised. That makes this rocket-sending ploy ineffective as terrorism. This quite regardless of how much damage they otherwise do. Since the perpetrators continue with the ploy despite their limitet resources, the goal must be different. And lo and behold, it is. In fact, seeing the "pro-palestina anti-zionism" protests staged elsewhere, it's doing quite well furthering hamas' cause.
You can shout "irrelevant" all you want but that doesn't change the observed reality and it certainly doesn't sway my opinion about this analysis. That remains entirely unaffected by your rather poor attempt at a counter.
George Friedman of Stratfor has an excellent analysis of the situation. His opening statement is, "We have long argued that the Arab-Israeli conflict is inherently insoluble." Definitely worth a read.
Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?
This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression. The moment Hamas stops shooting, IDF stops shooting, period. Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth. How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!
Your naivete would be cute if it wasn't for all the dead children!
Israel will not stop when Hamas stops firing rockets. I suspect Israel will stop the slaughter the moment when the Palestinians cede ownership of their natural gas fields to Israel for free. http://www.globalresearch.ca/w...
Also, how do you know these things about Hamas if the medias doesn't cover it? Of course the media covers Hamas's acts of terror. The part that is lacking is the fact that vast majority of Hamas's terror is aimed at Palestinians who belong to rival factions or who don't pay their protection dues on time.
God help anyone named bobby going through those tunnels!
Or are those English type bobbys?
Just like the native american indians existed first in the US before they were fucked over by the european settlers who now rule the country and own all the land?
Except that Americans with Native American ancestry are US citizens, and have the same rights and privileges as any other citizen. Injustices were done in the past, but they are not continuing today.
There was "conflict" before humans existed. You'll have to be more specific.
Learn to love Alaska
if every country had to go back to the borders it had last time the Jewish people were actually in the promised land then the world would be very different. That is never going to happen though, and most people would not want it to.
So, because they were successfully exterminated long enough ago, they lose all rights?
Learn to love Alaska
Two-state solution = apartheid.
So the USA and Canada are in apartheid? It's a two-state solution, by treaty, after wars and skirmishes.
Same as the US and Mexico.
The two-state solutions I've seen were more like India/Pakistan. And not ideal, it was better than the one-state solution (so say the historians).
Learn to love Alaska
Take it up with jaredm1 - he's the one who suggested that the Palestinians "deserve" a two state solution, but that evil Israel keeps oppressing them.
And if you look back hundreds of years, Jews were a majority in Palestine long before Islam even existed. So if you wanna go back in history to determine who has the oldest a claim to the land, well... Israel wins.
Ah I see, so we're only allowed to go back to 1946, for every property dispute. That's good - Native Americans in the US can stop bitching now. So can descendants of African slaves! I can't wait for you to tell them.
Why would that have been a "huge problem"? Oh right, because the Arabs fundamentally reject the right of a Jewish state to exist, period. The Arabs, who have repeatedly attacked (and reiterated their promises to exterminate) the Jews. Because they're just peace-loving democrats who would have respected the Jews' right to self-determination, just like they did in 1937, and 1947, and 1948, and 1967, and pretty much every year since the founding of the PLO, Hamas, and other organizations bent on the destruction of Israel.
Yes, it would've been a huge problem, because the Israelis will never be able to live peacefully with their neighbors, because their neighbors reject their right to exist, let alone engage in self-determination of ANY sort. You suggest that you really want democracy in Palestine, but be honest - what you're truly advocating is for the Jews to be completely exterminated - when 2 million wolves and 50,000 lambs take a vote on what to eat for dinner, it's kind of hard to imagine any outcome that doesn't require mint jelly as a garnish.
Hamas seems to recruit children really early, these days.
“Every two years or so, the Israeli military attacks Gaza, attacks the Gaza Strip, and causes a lot of destruction. But right after each one of those attacks, there is a trade show in which Israeli weapon companies show their wares, show their technologies, and boast that these are the very technologies that have been used just now against Palestinians in Gaza." ...
http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2014/08/other-reasons-for-ongoing-crime-in-gaza.html
If the soldiers of mexican cartels started having shootouts with each other and police forces on your property, with you and your family in the crossfire, or decided to make a point about how your property should belong to the sovereign state of Mexico by suicide bombing your neighborhood - maybe you'd change your tune and "agree with that wall" too.
What's it like being SO sheltered that you can't conceive of anything more distressing than missing an episode of Game of Thrones because your mom doesn't pick you up from your oboe lessons on time?
Stop being a retarded idiot. We are talking specifically about this latest incident.
Go troll somewhere else
Why is it our media (even this post) always seems to portray Hamas in a positive light?
Coverage I've seen usually consists of an interview with an Israeli followed by the same interview with a Palestinian ... both questioned, both spew the very same tired talking points day in and day out which Interviewer is mostly disinclined to follow up on even in instances where they know or should know information provided is misleading or false.
This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression.
I assume Palestinians say conflict would end the second Israeli's stop making their lives miserable.
So what's the problem? Seems easy enough to give both sides what they want...
Unless true motives are couched in fundamentally indefensible geopolitical calculations....but ... but this could... never.. I mean.... how many of you really deep down in your hearts believed the US went to war with Iraq because of fears of terrorists and Mushroom clouds? This is what leaders continuously do throughout recorded history. They spout bullshit for public consumption... and sadly people regurgitate it as if rooting for a sporting event.
Hamas lies and has no moral honor, they betray everything, and want nothing less than to wipe other people off the face of the earth.
When old Ben comes on US television waving his arm asserting there is no blockade when questioned it would seem to me Hamas is not the only liar.
How is that humanitarian and moral? And yet the western media doesn't portray that side of the story!
More people are routinely killed in a single hour of Israeli strikes than over a decade and a half of rocket bombardments from Gaza. You tell me.
Both sides are a bunch of immoral inhuman assholes if you want my opinion. Why doesn't the western media portray that side of the story!
You can't expect them to collaborate with their 'enemy'
The only thing they can do is guerilla warfare or agree to the occupation.
If they didn't have the support from the palestinian public eg: if Israel was actually civil
with these people instead of raiding them en masse and 'interrogating' their children then Hamas
wouldn't exist as it is now anyway. Punishing everybody for the crimes of a few is wrong policy.
Threat the people like people, work your informants
and send special ops to the actual terrorists, that's how you get them.
Yes these are just 'born' troublemakers: Bohemians and barbarians. It's not like men have fought each other for resources before.
Absolutely this.
Let's focus on the clever sensors in tunnels whilst ignoring the oddly fallible technology of one of the most advanced armies in the world whose bombs and soldiers can't distinguish between terrorists and kids in a god damn schools.
You know who certainly is not using technology, the 250+ kids murdered in the last 26 days. Most of whom have been imprisoned in a large open air prison for the entirety of their short lives (by people who hate them but graciously allow them the minimal amount of food, water and medical attention).
Screw all those who kill kids and screw any attempt to rationalize such killings as being as a response to mere threats or due to the other side. It's simple, if you fire the weapon that kills civilians / kid(s) it is you that is the murdering bastard who hopefully will rot in hell/prison for warcrimes.
Because look back at your history , the Romans smashed you completely. The rest of us 'goyim countries' if given a strong enough reason could (though I doubt i would ever happen) certainly do it again and possibly without even firing a shot.
Has anybody seen a comparison of the amount of explosives used by Israel v Palestinians?
I understand the war head on a Palestinian rocket is a few pounds. Say 5 pound. So 4000 rockets has a total explosives of 20000ib.
I have no idea of the size of the shells used by the Israel but one picture of an unexploded round appeared to be at least 6 feet long x 1 feet.
5 or 6 unexploded bombs would be all the explosives the Palestinians have used.
I am curious about this because you see scorecards on news sites with 4000 missiles vesus 4600 air strikes.
Odd to focus on some clever sensors in tunnels whilst ignoring the oddly fallible technology of one of the most advanced armies in the world whose bombs and soldiers can't distinguish between terrorists and kids in a school.
You know who certainly is not using any technology, the 250+ kids murdered in the last 26 days. Most of whom have been imprisoned in a large open air prison for the entirety of their short lives (by people who hate them but graciously allow them the minimal amount of food, water and medical attention).
Screw all those who kill kids and screw any attempt to rationalize such killings as being as a response to mere threats or due to the other side. It's simple, if you fire the weapon that kills civilians / kid(s) it is you that is the murdering bastard who hopefully will rot in hell/prison for warcrimes.
Everything you wrote is entirely your opinion and your opinion only. Not only just an opinion it's an opinion not backed up by anything else than more opinions of yours. In a nutshell your drivel is worthless shit and does no counter anything I wrote.
First off, Israel had to chase away as many nonjews as possible and deny their return before they could safely allow non-Jews to vote in the Jewish State. Still, for the last nearly fifty years, most of the non-jews living under israeli rule haven't been able to vote, half of them are refugees from the ethnic cleansing that created Israell. Millions of people languish under Israel's bootheel and they don't get to vote for the government that actually rules their lives. Meanwhile, Israel is constructing massive colonies on land that doesn't belong to it for the exclusive use of Jews. There are even roads going right through the Palestinians land connecting the colonies with Israel and each other that the Palestinians are forbidden to use. Palestinians get rounded up by troops and prosecuted in military courts while justice in the colonies is dispensed by police and Israeli courts. Separate towns, separate roads. separate justice: it's not apartheid it's hafrada! Of course, the apartheid is only temporary because the goal is to cleanse the area as much as possible so it can all be incorporated into Israel without any "demographic threat."
Ah. Now we are ignoring everything that happened before to narrow down a very narrow narrative? Wow.
Oh look. Just.....right now... Hamas did not attack Israel. Hey they must be the good guys. Wow.
And you have the guts to tell me I am the retarded troll???? You must be insane.
"At least here we know that Judaism existed first."
According to Judaism, when the they finished their 20 year walk out of Egypt that should have taken 2 days, they fought and killed all of the existing native tribes to take over their 'Promised Land'.
The only one spreading lies is you. There is neither a genocide nor did Israel stole land. The end.
What right? Should a modern day Catawaba Indian go displace my parents out of the home they bought and paid for, because 400 or 2000 or 6000 years ago, some Shaman said that land was granted to them by the Great Spirit?
Israel has no more right to move everyone non-israeli out of Gaza and the West Bank, than the Arab states do to drive Israel into the sea.
Both mindsets of historical 'Right' to land is wrong.
Or I grew up in a region \ country (Belfast northern Ireland) that went through something similar on a smaller scale and realised I didn't believe the BS that came from both sides particularly when myth becomes 'fact'.
and the Jews certain lived in that area before a single "Palestinian" ever existed.
Germany had been inhabited by Aryans for centuries, what was your point?
You make perfect sense if you ignore refugees and Israel's activities in Jerusalem, Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, Syria, etc...
I agree. Fundamentally, we should get out of Israel's way and let the middle-east situation play out. Russia and China could give all Arab countries weapons for free and they would still lose to the skill of Israel's military. Anyone that thinks Israel will fall to any Arab nation is delusional.
There is a great reason that Albert Einstein declined becoming Isreal's 1st President. In his words, the state shouldn't exist and will cause conflict among the Arabs & millions nof Jews who had lived there together in peace for nhundreds of years. That it woulkdn't e long until the Isrealis became the Nazis of the land. EInstein didn't need a Physics degree to call this one on the money.
Please don't talk about Ukraine if you don't really know anything about it and its history.
As war becomes more Tech vs Tech, slight technical advantages can snowball into huge military advantages. Especially if you can modify the actions of your enemies systems in real-time.
I18N == Intergalacticization
We don't have a good definition of "Terrorism" that is shared among us all, so the term becomes kicked around and abused. So I've stopped using it. By the way, the Hebrew word for terrorism does not involve the concept of terror or fear.
The governments involved, including the PA, have come to believe in a "Two State Solution", but Hamas does not. And Hamas is in a position to threaten the success of any 2-state plan, by taking over the West Bank, and starting another war with Israel. I believe this is the reason that Hamas is being destroyed. I think this is why the PA and several Arab states are very muted in their criticism of Israel during this war: Hamas is their enemy too.
If Israel does not destroy Hamas this time around, then my theory is probably wrong.
Hamas never sought anything peacefully. The PA has engaged in diplomacy, but Hamas, not. The rest of your narrative is one-sided, propagandistic and tendentious, too.
I18N == Intergalacticization
There is no wow about it. Specific things were said about specific incidents or events. Just because other things have happened does not preclude anyone from talking about a specific set of things.
Like I said, stop being a retarded idiot.
No, I called you a retarded idiot and told you to troll somewhere else. You see, words have meanings and they are used to communicate things called thoughts. You would do yourself a favor and learn the meaning of the words you are reading so people wouldn't think you are a retarded idiot trying to troll a discussion.
Just web search for 'Qatar vs Saudi Arabia' and you'll see over a billion results. Hot enough for you?
I18N == Intergalacticization
"This conflict would end the SECOND Hamas stopped their aggression. "
No, it would not.
This conflict began in the late 1800's when the Jews decided to create "home-land for the Jewish people", which meant to create a racist state which was for Jews only, on a land that was already populated and whose population had *never* at any time contained more than 8% Jew. In order to make lebensraum for the racist Jew only state, the Jews committed acts of terror which resulted in the native population of non-Jews be pushed out as refugees into Gaza, West Bank and surrounding Arab states.
That is the cause of the problem. The Arabs did not create the "conflict". The Jews did. Hamas does not "attack" Israel. Israel attacked the Arabs and Hamas is their legitimate and legally allowed resistance to the occupation of their lands - yes, that includes Tel Aviv and all of what you would call "Israel".
Hamas represents the refugees who do have the right to use violence in order to regain control of their territory from which they have been illegally expelled and which the Jews have annexed, which is an illegal action. This conflict will end when the Jews agree to allow the refugees to return to live in the land as equals under the law. That is the only condition under which Hamas or any other militant resistance organisation should ever agree to a ceasefire.
The Israelis can NEVER claim self-defence. Ever. Period. They only option they have as a "self-defence", is to obey the law and allow the refugees to return to live as equals under the law on the land.
How dare you suggest that the western media, which is controlled by Jewish people who support Israel, somehow side with Hamas! You are clearly a hasbara troll. This entire article is trying to give the impression that Hamas have "high-technology" at their disposal. Utter nonsense. A Hamas rocket barely makes an impact when it lands. It has no guidance system and no explosive warhead. The Israeli missiles are guided missiles of the highest technology and carry huge explosive payloads that can kill everyone within a 100 metre radius. It is extremely disingenuous to compare the number of Hamas rockets fired with the number of Israel rockets fired. It is like comparing the number of punches landed in a fight between a two year old girl and Mike Tyson in his prime.
Some of the offices in the building I work in have "high-tech sensors" that tell them when the door opens inward by ringing a little bell. They're dangling pieces of metal that hit a momentary switch tied to a doorbell ringer. Are those the "high-tech" devices described in such detail in the article?
fencepost
just a little off
"That area has been inhabited by Jews for centuries" - the population of Jews was less than 8%. Sure there were some Jews there, but only 8%. The Jews decided in 1897 to create a Jew only state on a land that contained only 8% Jews. That is the entire cause of the "conflict". Here are the numbers from a Jewish, pro-Israel website:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...
"In addition in modern Israel 20% of the citizens are muslim arabs with the same rights as everyone."
Those Arabs are the descendants of Arabs who were already living on the land before 1948. The Jews tried to get rid of them, many fled in terror but unfortunately for the Jews, some of them did not. If Muslim Arabs are so welcome in Israel, then please tell us how many Muslim Arabs immigrated to Israel and became full Israeli citizens last year compared to Jews? How about over the last 10 years?
"PS : The word Palestine that you mean is a modern invention. The ancient Palestine is something completely different."
Spare us your crappy word plays. The word Palestinian has come to mean: "A non-Jewish person who has the right to live in the land which in modern days is called Palestine/Israel". Just like the word Anti-Semite in modern times has come to mean a person (like me) who dislikes Jews - their beliefs, their culture and their behaviour even though the word "Semite" does not mean "Jew".
There is no hate coming from his mouth. Only truth. Watch the video footage included if nothing else. Jews killing women and babies because they are not Jewish. That is what this conflict is about.
I did a Google search for 'united states vs united kingdom' and got over 1/4 billion hits. Does that mean there's a secret war between the two?
What you write is complete and utter bullshit and you clearly know nothing factual about the history of the region. The fact is that there was never more than 8% Jew in the land we call Palestine/Israel today, until the Jews decided to create a racist Jew only state in that land in the late 1800's. All of the troubles stem from this. Trying to create a Jew only state on land that was inhabited by fewer than 8% Jews.
Don't believe it? Well tell it to your Jewish friends - they might need to change history to suit your ridiculous viewpoint!
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrar...
"Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener." It is easy to answer this question! The Jews are wrong and Hamas is right. Hamas has the right to resist the occupation and annexation of their land, and their exclusion from living on it as equals under the law, using violence. That is their right. Israel does not have the right to claim self-defence when it acts to defend the existence of Israel wherever Israel is defined as a Jew only state built on the land of the refugees to whom it refuses the right to return to live as equals under the law on the land. When Israel accepts the right of return of the refugees to live in the land as equals under the law, then Israel can claim that it is a legitimate state and has the right the defend itself.
Look, you are obviously a bit doughy, so here is a simple analogy for your tiny brain to process: I break into your house and start raping your wife. You try to defend her by attacking me with your puny body. I turn around and snap your head off of your body. The police come to arrest me. I tell them that I was acting in self-defence - because you attacked me. The "Community", which consists of people under my control and in my pay, agree with me and I am accordingly rewarded for heroically managing to defend myself against your attack by being allowed into your 18 year old daughters bedroom for some more "fun"! That is the best analogy of the Israel/Palestine conflict which has ever been written.
"I'm anxiously waiting to hear your proposed solution."
The solution is easy. Allow the return of the refugees and their descendants to live as equals under the law on the land.
The reason you won't agree to this is because Israel is a racist Jew only State and you don't want more non-Jews to be there because it would by definition signify the end of the Zionist enterprise. Hasbaras will likely come back and claim that Israel is a multicultural nation and has many Muslim Arabs.
I will ask them a question right now:
How many Muslim Arabs who were not born in Israel/Palestine immigrated into Israel and were granted full Israeli Citizenship with equal rights, Israeli passports etc.., last year? What about over the past 10 years?
How many non-Jewish Africans, Chinese and Indians were granted full Israeli Citizenship with equal rights, Israeli passports etc.., last year? What about over the past 10 years? What official Israeli government programs exist to encourage the immigration of qualified non Jewish Indians, Chinese and Africans into Israel on a pathway to eventually become full Israeli citizens, to raise their children as full Israeli citizens and access its health care and education etc...? The answer, as you know is close to, if not completely equal to, ZERO. So let's not pretend that Israel is not a racist Jew only state.
Now you will want to claim that Jews are not a race and therefore Israel cannot be a racist state. You know, I suspect, that that argument is utter bullshit and is based on the semantics of the word "race" which has been altered over time and are aware that there are many references to "Jewish Race" throughout the literature, not to mention the many Jewish studies on DNA which try to prove that there is such a thing as Jewish DNA (aka race). You know that there are many people who are defined by Israel to be Jewish even though they are Atheists, showing that Jewishness has nothing to do with religious belief - their Jewishness being defined by having been born to Jewish parents (aka DNA aka race). So let's not play that game.
If you want peace then give the refugees the right to return to live in the land as equals under the law as full citizens and don't define the state as the Jewish State. If you want an escalating war which is leaving the Jewish People looking increasingly bad, globally, then continue to murder children with your US supplied WMD's. It is your choice as a Jew really. You are making a bed, and soon you might have to lay in it.
...waiting for your apology for wrongly using "apartheid".
In Lord of the Rings, the Ents (talking trees) get asked which side they're on and they say they're not entirely on anyone's side because no one is entirely on their side. I tend to feel that way with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
I'm a big believer in individual freedom and so I'm opposed to discrimination and segregation. I'd like to live in a world where some guy from Japan would be free to go live in the Middle East and eat palak paneer while wearing a sombrero and listing to a Beethoven symphony - a world where people aren't pressured to do things the same way as their ancestors or do things the same way people who lived in that part of the world long ago - where people are free to live their own lives wherever they want in the world and to create their own new and blended cultures.
And what interests me is that you imply that you also think that apartheid was a bad thing. But do you also want to live in a world completely free of segregation and discrimination? Or do you prefer a middle ground where there is some degree of discrimination and segregation - perhaps that Israel should remain predominently Jewish and that "right of return" to Israel should only apply to people who are Jewish?
Thanks for admitting that you have no intelligent rebuttal to his argument.
Genocide? Really? When Hamas stores and fires missiles from civilian centers, what is Israel supposed to do? Politely ask Hamas to step away from their human shields.
I don't know who said this but it sums the situation up quite clearly: "Israel uses missiles to protect its civilians. Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles".
They're not that stupid. They fully realize that if they were to steamroll the Palestinians, it would be greatly frowned upon globally. If a bigger enemy comes their way at some point, they'd have no support whatsoever.
I know that will be bad for my karma but I find this stories' title disgusting.
Indeed there is a war between Israel and Hamas, but at the same time, there is the genocide of Palestinian People by Israel. Most of the ones who die are not Hamas fighters. Their only crime was to live in a territory Israel considers its own. Reducing the conflict to the fight between Israel and Hamas is a petty trick to hide the genocide.
Hamas fired its first rocket onto Israel 34 years after the occupation began, just saying.
So I can move into your house while you are at work. You "historical" claim to that land is invalid, as I got there since then.
Learn to love Alaska
There was a 100% Jewish population inhabiting Israel, a state which has existed from the beginning of the universe to present day. In the late 1800's, Hamas (a terrorist organisation which formed out of pure hatred for Jews and for no other reason) met in Basel and decided to create a Muslim state in the land of Israel. Hamas began a campaign of terror against the poorly armed and barely funded Jewish population who were isolated from the world due to anti-semitism in the US and Europe who have never given any funding or political support to them.
Somehow, the heroic and brave Jewish People managed to fend off the would-be usurpers of the Jewish land of Israel, fighting against the heavily armed Muslims: Jewish sling-shots against the Muslim F15's and Stealth Bombers. Unfortunately though, they had to concede small parcels of land, such as the Paradise City of Gaza (one of the wealthiest nations in the world with the best funded defence forces that money can buy and voted Best City To Live In last year) as Muslim areas in return for the peace that the peaceful peace loving Jewish People have always cherished so much.
All was peaceful for decades until, out of the blue a few weeks ago, the evil Hamas held a meeting with Satan and decided to hold a vote. All of the muslims in the world took part in the vote. The issue at hand was: Should we kidnap and murder 3 Jews, who are peacefully living in the Jewish land, where they have lived since the beginning of time, that we wish to steal from the Jews? Resoundingly the entire Muslim population (all of whom are evil) of the world, agreed: Go for it! It was a 100% turn out with a 100% YES vote. Even Muslim babies participated in the vote and are as equally responsible for the murder of the three Jews as the actual individuals who carried out the murder.
Because of the evil Muslims, the Jewish people are now forced to defend themselves and their land once again from the evil Muslims who have come once more to steal the Jewish land, where only Jews ever lived since the beginning of time. Unfortunately the evil Hamas have an overwhelming level of technological sophistication and it is looking as though the good guys, the Jews, who are completely isolated from outside funding due to the rampant anti-semitism in the US Congress and Senate, and are incapable of ever doing anything wrong, ever, might lose this military conflict.
If we let history be our guide, Israel doesn't exist. In the here and now, the Israelis are murdering thugs. Netanyahu and his cronies should be tried at the Hague.
You would like to live in a world where "nation state" is a dead concept. Regardless of whether I think this is a good aim or not, a simple look at the facts will show you it is not a practical aim.
There are very few states in the world which are not "nation states". Most of those are binational states or multi-national states. They don't fare very well. In the best case end of the spectrum you have Canada and Finland, where it sort-of works, but is very far from the ideal you're trying to paint. On the worst end of the spectrum you have Czechoslovakia and, in particular, Lebanon (which has spent about half of the past century in civil wars).
Then there are non-national states. America is, formally, one. A simple look at a dollar bill will show you just how much it isn't. While it did start out as immigrants' land, we now have an "American nationality", with typical religion, language, and a way of thought that is an American as apple pie.
The only non-national state I can think of which is successful in being one is Australia, in fact. It only does so by celebrating and enshrining the differences. This is something most people are not easily up to.
People tend to group around people who are like them. It's a human thing. I think it is pointless to fight it.
Shachar
i always find the use of "infidels" hilarious and language indicative of seriously backwards people.
want to be a muslim? great, but dont expect people to take you seriously when you go on about "the infidels"
I propose a partition plan to turn Gaza into an extraterrestrial refuge. That way when our E.T. overlords arrive, the Hamas and Israel can duke it out with them to their hearts' pleasure.
please don't take this seriously
Rule of thumb: if you find you need to provide my end of the argument in order to win, you are probably wrong. e.g.:
No, that's not it at all. The Zionist enterprise was about creating a Jewish state, but that term does not mean what you think it means. It is not about creating a state only for Jewish (religion) people, but about creating a national home for the Jewish people. That phrasing is actually the subtitle of the Zionist charter.
Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references.
The reason I would not agree to an indiscriminate return is not because I don't like to see Arabs around (I wouldn't buy a home where I did were that the case). It's because that would turn Israel into an Arab state (i.e. - it would replace one nation's state with another). One look at the personal freedom, economics and personal safety track record of neighboring countries is enough, and that's the case where Arabs rule over Arabs. As a rule, they like me even less than they like themselves.
Your willingness to gamble away my property, my freedom and my life is touching, but I think I'm going to pass none the less.
A nation state has every right to preserve its character through immigration control. All countries filter out immigrants, and Israel isn't even the only democracy to use religion as a criteria. Your insinuation that that's wrong needs citations.
Strawman. I never made that argument. Next.
Shachar
Actually wrong!!! A reading of his book 'Ideas & Opinions' would reveal how stridently he campaigned for a Jewish state. He also was very critical of the Arabs opposing this proposal, pointing out how vast & underpopulated they were.
mtthwbrnd here.
"Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references."
The only reference I need to provide is (1) your own answer...
"A nation state has every right to preserve its character through immigration control."
and (2) combined with the fact that the immigration control employed by Israel has not let any non-Jewish Chinese, Indian or African people gain full citizenship! That shows that the Israeli policy is a Jew only immigration policy which can only lead to a Jew only state. If only those pesky Arabs could have been eliminated in '48!
" and Israel isn't even the only democracy to use religion as a criteria."
Jewish is not a religion according to Israeli immigration policy. There are many Atheist and non-religious Jews who have gained citizenship of Israel on the basis of them being classified by the Israeli government as Jewish.
Please list the democracies which discriminate in their immigration policy in order to preserve the "character" of the demographics in their nation state? Any European Democracies? Does the US do that? Does the UK do that? Do any European nations do that? Does Australia do that? Does New Zealand do that? Does Canada do that? No! They do not. So which ones are you referring to?
"Strawman. I never made that argument. " Glad that you concede that Jewish is a racial trait, not a religious one and did not even bother to refute it.
EInstein rejected Israel for good reason. Albert related Zionists to Nazis. My God, the man was right!
Canada gives you more points if you speak French. The USA requires that you speak English in order to get accepted. In fact, language is a factor for many of the countries you specify.
I will, however, concede a mistake on the immigration policy. It seems (preliminary, I'm still looking into it) that around 2005 the European union decided that's unethical, and has been forcing member states to forego those policies. Today these policies are much less evident than they were.
Which does not mean this is, necessarily, a good thing. I'll tell you what. Let's wait ten more years. If the European union is still around, the member states have not turned Muslim, and these rules are still in effect, let's talk again.
You also said this, however:
This is manifestly and provably wrong. About a decade ago the government decided to start stricter enforcement against illigal immigrant workers. That enforcement exposed a problem: many of those had children born in Israel, speaking Hebrew as their primary language, and being, for all intent and purposes, Israeli. The enforcement meant they were being extradicted to a country they have never even seen.
This resulted in a public outcry. The result is a law that was passed in 2006, that gave illegal residents citizenship under certain conditions. There are not many Indians who enjoyed this law, but you will find plenty of Chinese and African desent people who received citizenship.
There are few things of note here, all totally refuting your assertion of a racist Jew only state. The first is that they did not receive citizenship through some fluke or loophole. The law was changed in particular to allow them to receive it. The second was that this was not some lone legistlator's initiative. This was a result of a public outcry. This is what the country is about. I don't know anyone who thinks this undermines or contradict the Zionist aim.
Being Jewish isn't a racial trait. Discriminating based on it, however, is racist. I didn't think you'd be anal enough to care about this distinction, so I didn't bother making it.
Shachar
People tend to group around people who are like them. It's a human thing.
I like to think that I'm human. But I'm living on the opposite side of the planet from where I grew up and my friends and family don't have the same religion, ethnicity, or even race as me. I see that there are huge problems in the world (poverty, disease, conflict) and, having grown up with immense educational privilege, I try to use science and technology to make small contributions to reducing those problems. And I use the internet to try to find like minded people. But the grouping is virtual, rather than physical, and certainly not based on religion, or race, or ethinicity.
"There are not many Indians who enjoyed this law, but you will find plenty of Chinese and African desent people who received citizenship."
How many non-Jewish Chinese and Africans are now full citizens of Israel? How many of them were granted their citizenship last year? How many of them over the last 10 years?
"Being Jewish isn't a racial trait."
oops, you better tell these guys that...
http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all
http://www.jpost.com/Enviro-Tech/Jews-A-religious-group-people-or-race
How can Jews claim that they are all descended from the same tribe on the one hand and therefore "God promised the land to THEM", but on the other, claim that they are not a Race? Well it does depend on how you define the word race. But whether we call Jews a race or a tribe, the fact is that to become a member of that group you do not have to believe in God or have any religion at all - all you have to do is be born to Jewish parents. That, for me, defines a race of people. The House Of Lords in England agrees:
"My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make to the House as to the attitude of the Government and their Allies to the persecution of the Jewish race at the hands of the German authorities in the countries at present under Hitlerite control."
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1942/dec/17/persecution-of-the-jews-allies
"Which does not mean this is, necessarily, a good thing. I'll tell you what. Let's wait ten more years. If the European union is still around, the member states have not turned Muslim, and these rules are still in effect, let's talk again."
Yes, we all know who is behind the massive immigration into Europe, who is trying to destroy Europe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFE0qAiofMQ
What would the IDF do if rockets were fired from near a Jewish town? A) fire missiles at civilians sheltering in the school B) something else.
This is the problem. The response to an attack from an Arab area is to hit the area hard with heavy artillery, killing many civilians. But they would never do this if the civilians were Jewish. It is an inherently racist policy.
Some numbers to put things into perspective: a graph showing israeli/palestinian deaths over time, and a graph showing the displacement of people and changes in territory over time.
"in Ukraine, for instance, you could potentially partition the land since you have a rather clear line dividing east and west over language and political views"
Not in the slightest bit true. Even in Crimea which Russian annexed there was less than 50% (I believe it was 41%) support to join Russia before Putin ran his own rigged poll. In Eastern Ukraine support is even lower, the majority still want to be part of Ukraine, so if you split it off on the whining of a handful of Russian separatists then you'd be in no better a position.
"If you look at population statistics from that era, you find that Palestinians outnumbered Jews virtually everywhere."
But that's the problem, people like you insist on cherry picking a completely arbitrary point in time and go hey, I'm right! but you're ignoring the many earlier points in history where even Jewish and Christian folk were the majority - the Jews originally expelled by Palestines such that they were the majority at the point in time that you cherry picked.
This is actually similar to Ukraine, right now Putin is moving Russians into Crimea so that he can claim that Crimea can't ever become Ukrainian again because hey look, a Russian majority now live there!
You can't just take an arbitrary point in time to suit your agenda. If you want to be objective you could argue that given that Judaism is a far older religion than both Christianity and Islam that surely by definition it takes precedence in the region? But despite it's objectivity as a measure I'm not sure where exactly it would get us - even if you used an objective measure it's not going to change the fact people are fighting there and now. Whatever metric you use to try and justify who should and shouldn't be there people will still fight for their own interests.
Picking arbitrary points in time as you have to provide worthless justification doesn't help anyone. Why is your claim of 1946 more worthwhile than a claim from 2006 where Jews are the majority. You're saying we don't get back 2000 years, but why are you saying we go back 70 years? why 70? why not 90? why not 5? why not 10? why not 100? why not 1000? why not 2000?
The fact you've picked 70 odd (well, nearly 80) years is arbitrary, but you've picked it because you have a predetermined bias in support of one group over the other - you might as well have cut your post short and just said "I support the Palestinian claim" because everything else you said tells us absolutely nothing of value beyond that - it's just dressing to try and make it look like you're posting something other than personal opinion, which you're obviously not.
I wonder, how a highly sofisticated networked cloud-based launch system is able to function without electricity... if so , only on batteries? Maybe the palestinians, hamas and/or Qatar, should sell their technology, im pretty sure Elon Musk and others are quite interested on this super high tech system that works without infrastructure in place!
Genocide? Really?
Yes really. Bombing the shit out of schools, repeatedly, to the point where it looks less like collateral damage and more like systematic targetting of civilians and children and ethnic cleansing is not acceptable.
What's ironic is Jewish people should be acutely more aware of this than most.
I really don't think the children are so dumb that they don't realize standing next to a missile is a safe location.
Children are far, FAR easier to convince to do anything and to buy into any exaggerated story, be it patriotic, religious, heroic or simply "cool", than adults.
Regardless of the flag.
On a side note...
Just this morning I read on a local, Bosnian, portal about a "15-year-old Bosnian citizen" being killed in Gaza.
I won't go into the whole citizenship thing, but let's just say that the kid and his father who was quoted in the text are about as Bosnian in name and appearance as are those Chinese who live and work in Bosnia.
Probably a little less as Chinese are currently living and working here and not in Middle East.
But the point of the story is father's comment.
How "his son's blood was very costly, but for the precious Palestine, no cost is too high".
Regardless of the veracity of those words, THAT IS the image and mindset promoted by the Palestinian sources.
Be they establishment's or private.
That is what kids have been taught there for decades now.
Thus, standing GUARD next to a missile for those kids is not dumb but BRAVE AND GLORIOUS.
Feel free to imagine "The Minstrel Boy" playing over this post.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
No, that's not it at all. The Zionist enterprise was about creating a Jewish state, but that term does not mean what you think it means. It is not about creating a state only for Jewish (religion) people, but about creating a national home for the Jewish people. That phrasing is actually the subtitle of the Zionist charter.
Which means Israel is not, and was never meant to be, a Jews only state. If you want to claim otherwise, please provide references.
That's possibly one of the most creative descriptions of the Israeli state I have ever read, but then Israel and Jewish people
The reason I would not agree to an indiscriminate return is not because I don't like to see Arabs around (I wouldn't buy a home where I did were that the case). It's because that would turn Israel into an Arab state (i.e. - it would replace one nation's state with another).
The fact that you're talking in those terms of an 'Arab' and an 'Israeli' state betrays what you and the rest of us know to be true.
Incomplete sentence...... .....but then Israel and Jewish people tend to frame things in that manner.
So I can move into your house while you are at work. You "historical" claim to that land is invalid, as I got there since then.
I get the argument, but this is basically how every national border on Earth was drawn. I doubt a single parcel of land has clear title back to the first human who slept on it.
If you can move into somebody's house while they're away at work and hold off the government's attempts to return it to them for long enough, you'll be recognized as the owner of that property. It is pretty hard to make this work for a single home though - it works better if you take over a piece of land the size of Missouri - then your entire army isn't within the kill radius of a single hand grenade.
Actually, the US isn't all that far off from apartheid with the whole red-state/blue-state thing (in which case 52% of the state population is happy, and 48% disagrees with just about everything being done). A proportional democracy would probably go a long way towards fixing that.
The US/Canada or US/Mexico borders are also hardly the result of some kind of UN-like peace process. Wars were fought and the border ended up where it ended up. There certainly were foreign powers involved (especially with Canada), but they weren't so overwhelmingly powerful compared to the local nations that they could just draw up a border in a smoke-filled room and force everybody to abide by it.
Actually, the US war of 1812 isn't too far off from Israel vs Palestine. The UK certainly outclassed the US back then in every way, but they didn't care to exterminate the US citizens and they knew they couldn't govern them long-term, so they fought a limited war, all the while being constrained by the need to spend the bulk of their military resources against more serious threats.
Propaganda notwithstanding the Israeli army has no desire to kill all the Palestinians, and they know they can't really govern them either, so they generally try to contain them and avoid doing much more despite their being able to do so, in part out of a desire to avoid foreign intervention.
There are other groups that support a Palestinian state that aren't crazed religious fanatics. Don't pretend that you have to support Hamas to support the Palestinian plight.
A big problem is that for whatever reason the locals tend to elect folks like Hamas. This is a problem, as are the idiots who keep electing crusaders in the US.
Democracy doesn't work well when huge segments of the population have no respect for individual liberty, especially religious liberty. It turns into two wolves and a sheep voting over what is for dinner.
Know that I don't think that the concept of "nation state" is dead? That I think that Jews have a right of self-determination in addition to the Palestinians?
And merely because I'm both Jewish and Israeli doesn't mean my explanation is wrong. Well, to most thinking people, at least. If you think it is incorrect, by all means, provide references. I'd have provided references myself, except I'm not sure which part of my description you have issues with. If it's either the focus on "Jewish people", or the acceptance of minority rights, I'd need to point you no further than Israel's declaration of independence. Both are very prominent.
Shachar
The irony of it all. A story about social media propaganda which, in itself, is also propaganda.
It's more:
"they know the missile launcher will be blown up shortly after it open fire, so the rigged a remote activation system".
I don't think you understand how war works.
I don't disagree. I was just pointing out the folly in the GP's statements.
Learn to love Alaska
So borders set by international treaty are evil. But ones set by local wars are a good thing?
Learn to love Alaska
When Hamas stores and fires missiles from civilian centers, what is Israel supposed to do? Politely ask Hamas to step away from their human shields.
First, it's never been proven they have been using human shields. Second, have you fucking seen Gaza?! Just pick a map, and remember it's one of the most densely populated area in the world. What the hell do you expect? Hamas building military bases far away from civilians? Where?!
You'd think people who usually spend time on slashdot are smart enough to actually open at least Wikipedia and inform themselves.
Please show references for the number of non-Jewish Chinese and Indian and African origin people who were made full citizens of Israel, without caveat, last year and over the last 10 years.
You stated that some nations have a language requirement for immigration. That is very different to having a requirement that somebody is born Jewish - or in the rare event manages to convert to the religion of Judaism and to convince the immigration authorities that they truly are Jewish, which hardly ever occurs.
The fact that Jews determined to create a "national home for the Jewish people" on a land that was only ever populated by fewer than 8% Jews is the entire and absolute cause of the entire conflict. Coupled of course with the terrorism that was necessary in order to terrorize the 92% of others to flee - which failed and left the current Arab population in Israel who had to made into Israeli citizens, with caveats of course. Tell us, how many non-Jewish Arabs are full Israeli citizens who were born abroad and became citizens last year? Over the last 10 years?
You claim that the aim was not to create a majority Jewish population, but merely to create a "national home for the Jewish people". But the immigration policy tells us a different story. The fact that there are majority of Jews now in Israel tells us a different story. Do you deny that cute little Bibi makes policies designed to "maintain the Jewish character" of the state - i.e. policies designed to maintain an overwhelming majority of Jews, look at the African Asylum seekers, or as he calls them, infiltrators, for example.
So the fact that the Hamas charter calls for killing the Jews has nothing to do with this? Hamas picked a fight with Israel, and Israel is fighting back. Never had to happen, if it weren't for Hamas starting it. Hamas launches rockets from residential areas, order civilians to stay put and hope that Israel will retaliate and fire upon their rocket launchers. Israel has every right to fight back.
It's about time for people like you to realize that Israel is going no where and there will be no right of return granted to people that have did nothing but try and kill Israelis since 1948. Never going to happen. And if they were in danger of losing a military onslaught they would turn every major city in the Middle East in a parking lot. The Israeli's do not give a shit about what other countries want when it comes to their security. They do not ask for approval from anyone when it comes to security and they are right to do so.
From the jew talmud:
1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."
2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."
3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."
4. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."
5. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."
6. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."
7. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."
8. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."
9. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."
10. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."
11. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."
12. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."
13. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."
14. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."
16. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."
17. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."
18. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."
19. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."
20. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."
21. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."
22. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."
23. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."
24. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."
****
So let's not try to make jews "heros" or "saints" here, or even victims. You can clearly see what they think of you all (yes, non-jews are Goy/Goyim and Gentiles from above), and quoted straight from their own belief systems. I didn't write that material above. Jews did.
Think about that.
What's a bobby trap?
What you write is complete and utter bullshit and you clearly know nothing factual about the history of the region. The fact is that there was never more than 8% Jew in the land we call Palestine/Israel today, until the Jews decided to create a racist Jew only state in that land in the late 1800's. All of the troubles stem from this. Trying to create a Jew only state on land that was inhabited by fewer than 8% Jews.
Don't believe it? Well tell it to your Jewish friends - they might need to change history to suit your ridiculous viewpoint!
I didn't say Jews, I never mentioned any religious groups, I even stated it's not about religion, if you read my comment. It's about the political groups.
"Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know, but history is quite an eye opener." It is easy to answer this question! The Jews are wrong and Hamas is right. Hamas has the right to resist the occupation and annexation of their land, and their exclusion from living on it as equals under the law, using violence. That is their right. Israel does not have the right to claim self-defence when it acts to defend the existence of Israel wherever Israel is defined as a Jew only state built on the land of the refugees to whom it refuses the right to return to live as equals under the law on the land. When Israel accepts the right of return of the refugees to live in the land as equals under the law, then Israel can claim that it is a legitimate state and has the right the defend itself.
You obviously don't know history, and you obviously want to make and keep this a religious issue. The fact that you side with those willing to kill themselves in the process of killing others, in an attempt to be served by virgins, shows it clearly.
Look, you are obviously a bit doughy, so here is a simple analogy for your tiny brain to process: I break into your house and start raping your wife. You try to defend her by attacking me with your puny body. I turn around and snap your head off of your body. The police come to arrest me. I tell them that I was acting in self-defence - because you attacked me. The "Community", which consists of people under my control and in my pay, agree with me and I am accordingly rewarded for heroically managing to defend myself against your attack by being allowed into your 18 year old daughters bedroom for some more "fun"! That is the best analogy of the Israel/Palestine conflict which has ever been written.
And here we finally see where intelligence comes in, insults and examples of propaganda. Go read your history, not the Quran or the Bible, and learn to show a little respect to others if you wish to have a proper debate with them, those who have to lower themselves to slinging insults aren't worth the time or effort.
That is by no means "the best analogy evar" but I will award you 2 middle fingers for what could be the douchiest asshole post I've read today.
"I didn't say Jews, I never mentioned any religious groups,"
You think that Jews have nothing to do with Israel? That Israel, the state the Jews call the National Home of the Jewish People, has nothing to do with Jews?
Besides, Jews are not a religious group. They are a tribal, or even racial group. Non-religious atheist Jews are just as welcome in Israel under the Law Of Return as religious ones.
"You obviously don't know history, and you obviously want to make and keep this a religious issue. The fact that you side with those willing to kill themselves in the process of killing others, in an attempt to be served by virgins, shows it clearly."
Tell us the history then! The history is simple, what do you dispute:
1. There has never been more than 8% Jews in the land up until around 1930's due to overt efforts to alter the demographics.
2. In late 1800's the Jews decided to create a Jew only state in the land.
3. Following the decision Jews from all over the world were funded and encouraged to move (at the outset not many did).
4. Many non-Jews left the area, for whatever reason, and were denied the right to return to the area by the Jews.
5. A people whose lands are being annexed, occupied, settled and access to which they are denied, have the right to use violence.
6. A people who are occupying, annexing, settling and denying access to land by the population whose land it is have no right to claim self defense.
7. The only right they have is to stop the annexation, the occupation, the settlements and allow the return of the refugees to live as equals under the law.
So borders set by international treaty are evil. But ones set by local wars are a good thing?
Hardly. I'm just saying that might makes right is basically how just about every border on the planet got drawn. It is a bit naive to think that it will work any differently in Gaza.
Since when is slashdot pro israel you ask, well, I don't know what planet your from, you can quote all the fucking numbers and twisted logic u want, but at the end of the day, this is a war, and if anyone here, including you, had a choice to be governed by a bunch of Palestinian elected fucking Islamic terrorists that will cut your head off if you look at them the wrong way or ask a woman to talk in public vs. the democratic government of Israel, I think most of us would chose israel. The fucking technology that ur using to make your post was probably invented by Israelies, so yeah, it should be pro israel; use slashdot for good or shut the fuck up and and go back to Syria or Libya, I'm sure you ll enjoy your stay there more than israel.
Jaredm1, you do NOT know your history. I don't know about you, but if a group of extremist that send their kids strapped with bombs to blow up busses, restaurants and schools, or indiscriminately shoots rockets to kill civilians are is not terrorists, then I don't know what is. If you start taking stupid fucking twisted logic like 'it's all they can do' against the 'occupiers' then ur worst than the terrorist yourself. Israel left gaza, there was no fucking occupation, or siege....and look what happened. Even if there was occupation, what the fuck, the Palestinians should be happy they don't live in Iraq or Syria. They have better lives than any other Islamic state surrounding them. They should actually thank Israel, stop fucking complaining, blaming everyone else for thier problems, and start building a normal society.
Leave the Jews alone u anti-Semite. Why the fuck do you care so much about the Palestinians when Arabs are killing each other in thousands by the day. Where is ur fucking protest on all the shit going on in Syria, Libya, Iraq. Don't fucking thrown your stupid numbers at us cuz u dont know what ur talking about. And even so, Israel makes up less than 1% of all the Arab occupied land! much less that your fucking 8% that u pulled out of your ass. The Jews deserve a home and they shoukd then have a least 8% of Arab land. I'm not here to educate you about history, but if you don't like he way a moral democratic country runs, move to Syria or Iraq. Ull be prating that israel come to save ur ass from thise fucking authoritarian terrorists that will chop ur head if u dint bow down yo thier gd.
Let's be blunt here. If we didn't have religion, we would pave the whole goddamn region and make it into a shopping mall / amusement park. THIS is what the lies of religion have led to. Is it really worth it? I think not.
"Where is the U.N. Human Rights Council? Where is Amnesty International? Where is Human Rights Watch? Where is the international media and Middle East pundits. Where are all the lawfare experts? Here is 'Exhibit A' to indict Hamas for war crimes and crimes against humanity by placing the people of Gaza as human shields," said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
From the IDF Blog:
IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.
Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas “urban warfare” manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.
This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.
The Manual:
In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:
The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].
Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.
The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:
(1) Problems with opening fire
(2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
(3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it
Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:
The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).
It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.
https://www.kintera.com/accoun...
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
One response
https://www.kintera.com/accoun...
A Hamas manual on "Urban Warfare" found by the Israeli Defense Forces makes it unmistakably clear that Hamas desires civilian casualties amongst its own people and encourages its fighters to engage in battles in civilian populated areas in order to draw an Israeli response.
"Where is the U.N. Human Rights Council? Where is Amnesty International? Where is Human Rights Watch? Where is the international media and Middle East pundits. Where are all the lawfare experts? Here is 'Exhibit A' to indict Hamas for war crimes and crimes against humanity by placing the people of Gaza as human shields," said Rabbis Marvin Hier and Abraham Cooper, dean and founder and associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center.
From the IDF Blog:
IDF forces in the Gaza Strip found a Hamas manual on “Urban Warfare,” which belonged to the Shuja’iya Brigade of Hamas’ military wing, the Al-Qassam Brigades. The manual explains how the civilian population can be used against IDF forces and reveals that Hamas knows the IDF is committed to minimizing harm to civilians.
Throughout Operation Protective Edge, Hamas has continuously used the civilian population of Gaza as human shields. The discovery of a Hamas “urban warfare” manual by IDF forces reveals that Hamas’ callous use of the Gazan population was intentional and preplanned.
This Hamas urban warfare manual exposes two truths: (1) The terror group knows full well that the IDF will do what it can to limit civilian casualties. (2) The terror group exploits these efforts by using civilians as human shields against advancing IDF forces.
The Manual:
In a portion entitled “Limiting the Use of Weapons,” the manual explains that:
The soldiers and commanders (of the IDF) must limit their use of weapons and tactics that lead to the harm and unnecessary loss of people and [destruction of] civilian facilities. It is difficult for them to get the most use out of their firearms, especially of supporting fire [e.g. artillery].
Clearly Hamas knows the IDF will limit its use of weapons in order to avoid harming civilians, including refraining from using larger firepower to support for infantry.
The manual goes on to explain that the “presence of civilians are pockets of resistance” that cause three major problems for advancing troops:
(1) Problems with opening fire
(2) Problems in controlling the civilian population during operations and afterward
(3) Assurance of supplying medical care to civilians who need it
Lastly, the manual discusses the benefits for Hamas when civilian homes are destroyed:
The destruction of civilian homes: This increases the hatred of the citizens towards the attackers [the IDF] and increases their gathering [support] around the city defenders (resistance forces[i.e. Hamas]).
It is clear that Hamas actually desires the destruction of homes and civilian infrastructure, knowing it will increase hatred for the IDF and support their fighters.
Why Shuja’iya is Important
It is also of no small importance that this manual belongs to the Shuja’iya Brigade. The IDF fought a major battle in the neighborhood of Shuja’iya, which had been turned into a terrorist stronghold. The discovery of this manual suggests that the destruction in Shuja’iya was always part of Hamas’ plan.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
That is one of the most obvious trolls I've seen for quite a while. Everyone who took this seriously should be embarrassed.
Israel has had to defend itself from rocket attacks for years. Just because they have been doing, so does not give Hamas the right nor the moral high ground to keep pelting Israel with rockets. Hamas has declared that they are at war with the Israel. It would be one thing, if they declared war and did nothing. They put the citizens of Gaza at risk, using their own people as human shields. What army uses civilians like that? They want civilian casualties. They use the death and destruction of innocent civilians to garner public sympathy. The Palestinians know this, and try to flee for their lives, and Hamas forces them or punishes them for fleeing, while they flee. Videos prove what is already known.
Film at 11?
So unsurprising.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Jews worldwide = 18 million and Muslims = 1.8 billion
Why Israel thinks https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... will make their future generations safe/secure?
Casteism
http://www.haolaowai.org/the-business-of-war-the-real-military-industrial-complex/
US supports Israel because of defense contractor profits, not some idealogue...