Babylon 5 May Finally Get a Big-Screen Debut

Ars Technica reports that "J. Michael Straczynski will shortly begin work on a rebooted big-screen version of his 1990s sci-fi TV series [ Babylon 5]." From the article: According to JMS's latest announcement, the new script will be targeted at a 2016 theatrical release and will be a reboot of the series rather than a continuation. This is necessary for both dramatic and practical purposes—the series was in regular production from 1994-1998, and the cast has simply aged too far to credibly play themselves again during the series’ main timeline. Additionally, several of the foundational cast members — Michael O'Hare, Andreas Katsulas, Richard Biggs, and Jeff Conaway — have passed away. ... The movie rights to the Babylon 5 property remain in JMS's hands, but the creator is hopeful that this time around, Warner Bros. will choose to finance the film instead of passing on it. Nonetheless (at least according to TV Wise), JMS is prepared to fund the movie through his own production company if necessary — something that wasn't a possibility ten years ago — suggesting that B5 will in fact come to the big screen at last.

Comments

And so it begins...

[I'm just joshin]

The avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote.

Re: And so it begins...

[Iholdsworth]

Getting sick of reboots! But atlast one I fancie. I do hope JMS keeps the scope and grandure in there. obviously the new cast will have to put up with the specter of the curse of babylon 5

Re: And so it begins...

[Z00L00K]

At least he had a good story on the TV series, which really was important. A lot of the CGI effects were at the time decent but today they wouldn't measure up. At least the CGI effects were in most cases only backdrops, so it didn't really matter that they weren't fully realistic. A good thing was that it held stories within the grand story.

The story itself did leave a lot of threads to follow outside the station with several untold stories. The technomages are still a bit of a mystery, who are they actually, and what were their origins?

Gideon: I thought you said you never hold a grudge.
Galen: Well, I don't. I have no surviving enemies... at all.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

The story jumped the shark at the end. I'm sorry, as much as I loved Babylon 5, it simply doesn't stand the test of time when you watch it in your 30s rather than as a teenager. It was awesome at first, a character driven Sci-Fi show, and then Sheridan came back from the dead with a Messiah Complex. Delenn always had one of course, even the Vorlons were smart enough to know that (watching Jack the Ripper torture this character flaw out of her was priceless, too bad it didn't take for the long term) as they set her up as their Emissary or whatever the hell she was. What really irked me was the human characters betraying their oath to Earth and going native after they had kicked Clark out of office. The Whitestar fleet or at least one example thereof should have been turned over to Earthforce R&D after the war, but that would required Sheridan to surrender power, so of course it didn't happen.

There's also the complete mess that was Season 5, though here I cut JMS some slack because he was kind of screwed when it looked like the show was getting the axe. The most important piece of back story was pretty damned stupid, the Minbari have thousands of years in space but start a war of annihilation (a pathetic one at that, only 250,000 deaths in two years of war, JMS needs to read about the Eastern Front....) over a botched first contact? Then they stop the war because of some religious nonsense?

In fairness the show did have highlights, Garibaldi was the best human character I think (he was Babylon 5's Chief O'Brien) flawed in every way and very easy to relate to. Londo and G'Kar never jumped the shark, their respective stories stand the test of time. Even the stupid parts (the Earth-Minbari War) had highlights, the President's speech towards the end of "In The Beginning" still chokes me up when I watch it, and the way JMS wove all of the stories together was amazing.

Re: And so it begins...

[qpqp]

It is also the only sci-fi series (AFAIK), where the characters have to go take a dump.

Re: And so it begins...

[roc97007]

I know it's difficult, but the series arc works better if you ignore season 5.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

Except that the series jumped the shark when Sherdian came back from the dead, which was always part of the arc. Season 5 is best viewed as a collection of disparate standalone stories, of which there are actually a few redeeming ones.

Re: And so it begins...

[K. S. Kyosuke]

He could also be George R. R. Martin.

Re: And so it begins...

[lgw]

So, wait, you're upset that the characters were flawed? Aliens acted in ways that made little sense? That's what made the show good - no one was perfect, the "good guys" did stupid shit too, and not everyone seemed rational. I liked it.

But yeah, season 5 had little to offer.

For me the show's attraction was watching Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik, and Stephen Furst playing against one another, and the arcs of their characters. Londo discovering morality too late to do anything but suffer for his sins, G'Kar discovering what it means to be a religious leader (some of JMSs best writing IMO), and Vir showing that even in the most corrupt society, a strong moral compass serves you well in the long run.

Re: And so it begins...

[mrbester]

The CGI was groundbreaking and a great deal more than just "backdrops". Every ship, planet, piece of debris, weapons fire as well as the interior of various parts of the station was made on *Amigas* with zero model shots. When they had enough money for a small render farm they could create large space battles in real time.

They kept the details secret even though big names like ILM and Paramount wanted to know how the hell they did it with so little equipment and a shoestring budget (we didn't see the battle of Wolf 359, only the aftermath and even that was a few years later because it was too expensive to make). They released old methods to the big studios on a seasonal basis: Mars Attacks used Season 2 quality, ST:Voyager used Season 4.

Yes, the effects look dated. Because they are. But no one else could do what they did 20 years ago.

Re: And so it begins...

[marsu_k]

Actually you only need to ignore the first half of season 5 (the whole "Tragedy of the Telepaths" subplot was more a tragedy of the viewers), but I think there are some great episodes in the latter half. "Fall of Centauri Prime" is a personal favourite of mine.

Re: And so it begins...

[CanadianMacFan]

If you want to know about the technomages then read the books about them. There is a trilogy by Jeanne Cavelos. Most of the books in the series are pretty good and fill in the gaps that were left by the series.

Re: And so it begins...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Except that the series jumped the shark when Sherdian came back from the dead, which was always part of the arc.

FWIW, I never saw it that way. With the powerful races that are in play by that point in the show, it needed someone from the younger races to do something that appears miraculous from our perspective to put us in the same league and make the final outcome to the main plot arc credible. What happened to Sheridan was that something, and it was clear from well before the critical event that the older races knew and understood things about what was happening that the younger races in the show and, by extension, we as the viewers did not, so personally I didn't find it either out of character or a random deus ex machina twist.

Season 5 is best viewed as a collection of disparate standalone stories, of which there are actually a few redeeming ones.

There I definitely agree. JMS didn't get to finish things quite the way he'd hoped, with the potential cancellation after season 4 obviously causing some reordering and early resolution of major plotlines, and things like losing a major cast member for related reasons that they couldn't fix in time when they did get the green light for season 5. However, a few of the individual episodes in season 5, particularly the ones that looked at the station and characters we had become so familiar with from a very different perspective, were some of the best single episodes of the whole series IMHO. There's a great little moment at the end of "A View from the Gallery", where something happens just in time, and it puts the often grand themes and seemingly awesomely powerful characters we normally see in the show in a very different light.

I wonder whether a reboot of the main series is the best way to go, though. It's hard to believe anyone could play characters like G'Kar and Londo with the brilliant individual performances and wonderful chemistry of the original actors. I can watch the new Star Trek films and enjoy a big space fight with the best of them, but I don't see Kirk and Spock, I see a different ship, a different crew, and a very different (read: Hollywood) style. It's more like ST:TNG compared to ST:TOS, a familiar environment but different characters and stories. I'm not sure trying to retell the original B5 story with a bigger screen, a bigger budget, bigger SFX, and none of the original magic is a winning move (although if there's anyone who could pull something like that off, JMS would be the one, and if they manage some exceptional casting as well then it might be worth watching).

Re:And so it begins...

[Black Parrot]

So... what 2000s /2010s series will be rebooted (but should not)?

If the currrent trend continues, I'd say "all of them".

Re: And so it begins...

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Totally agreed about the G'Kar/Londo/Vir storylines. The non-human characters often got the best personal storylines and character development in B5, because the human officers (and Delenn as a notable exception to the non-human rule) tended to be tied up in moving the main plot arc forwards much of the time. Lennier was another non-human who had a diverse range of relationships with other characters and developed well through the series, at least until his completely implausible Toby Ziegler style character transplant near the end.

Re: And so it begins...

[roc97007]

Actually you only need to ignore the first half of season 5 (the whole "Tragedy of the Telepaths" subplot was more a tragedy of the viewers), but I think there are some great episodes in the latter half. "Fall of Centauri Prime" is a personal favourite of mine.

You're right. I was looking at it from a story arc perspective rather than a quality perspective.

I wonder if there is a way to reorder that fits the best episodes of season 5 in appropriate places in season 4. Then we could still get the "far in the future" ending, which was an excellent way to end the series.

Re: And so it begins...

[kenwd0elq]

As somebody who got INTO Babylon 5 in his 40's, I disagree; Babylon 5 was the best program on TV ever. (Barring, of course, the hot mess that resulted from the on-again/off-again cancellation of Season 5.) There were a few discontinuous episodes in Season 1, but seasons 2-4 were like old soap operas; you didn't dare miss an episode, or you wouldn't be able to catch up.

Even though I generally despise "reboots" of old favorite stories, I'm glad that JMS is doing it, and I wish him the best of luck in it.

Re: And so it begins...

[Mascot]

I'm sorry, as much as I loved Babylon 5, it simply doesn't stand the test of time when you watch it in your 30s rather than as a teenager.

I watched it for the first time in my 30s and still found it absolutely brilliant. Just sayin'.

Re: And so it begins...

[Antique Geekmeister]

Part of the "jumping the shark" was due to money craziness, and the problems when core actors decide they need to do other things with their career. The switch of captains was an enormous problem for fans and the story line, but we'd come to terms with it. The switch of first officers as well, was crippling.

The reboot of Star Trek was, admittedly, a failure. It lacked Gene Roddenberry's vision of the future as a better place as a more mature place and time with a frontier that tested and showed people who'd learned to engage frontiers with the hard-won wisdom they'd learned, who were actually making the galaxy a better place by sharing that wisdom But I was personally very pleased with the "Enterprise" series as an attempt to restart the series in an earlier period and recapture the exploration of a less mature series.

And for Star Trek/Babylon 5 comparisons, there can only be the Deep Space 9/Babylon 5 comparison. Anyone who didn't see parallels simply wasn't paying attention, and it was fascinating, as fans, to see how much better of a storyline Baboylon 5 was, and how much having a larger studio and a larger budget and franchise was able to help Deep Space 9. I really found myself wishing that Paramount, JMS, and the remainders of Gene Roddenberry's core crew and estate could have worked something out for Babylon 5 to have been told in the Star Trek universe with the larger budgets and resources.

I'm forced to admit that as a fan, I was delighted and thrilled to see Majel Barrett-Roddenberry, renowned as Gene Roddenberry's supportive wife, as Nurse Chapel and Lwaxana Troi and the voice of all the computers in Star Trek, pop up as the wife of the emperor in Babylon 5. It was wonderful to see the woman, herself, show her support of the excellent work at Babylon 5 by appear in a small bit fascinating role.

And Walter Koenig's hop from roles as Chekov in Star Trek to Alfred Bester in Babylon 5 was... well, you have to go watch the shows to understand the _completely_ different role Walter Koenig plays, and to applaud the acting and the writing that created it.

Re: And so it begins...

[marsu_k]

Regarding the Sinclair -> Sheridan switch (which I didn't mind, I never particularly cared for Sinclair), there was a quite good reason for it.

Re: And so it begins...

[Electricity Likes Me]

I'm sorry, as much as I loved Babylon 5, it simply doesn't stand the test of time when you watch it in your 30s rather than as a teenager.

I watched it for the first time in my 30s and still found it absolutely brilliant. Just sayin'.

I got my girlfriend into it after what happened with Battlestar Galactica, and while the first season is a bit of a slog, she absolutely loved it after that.

Re: And so it begins...

[Kjella]

There were a few discontinuous episodes in Season 1, but seasons 2-4 were like old soap operas; you didn't dare miss an episode, or you wouldn't be able to catch up.

Which was also why it was totally impenetrable for anyone who hadn't been watching since season one, episode one. I remember seeing one episode in season one or two and thinking "WTF? Who are they? Why are they fighting? What's going on?" and totally lost interest. I finally got hooked on it during the Shadow War, bad-ass black ships against everyone else in the galaxy as that one was rather obvious. It was only after that I bothered to watch the reruns and figure out what the heck happened leading up to that. Was it really that hard to have a 20-30 second "Previously on Babylon 5" giving you at least the essentials of the back story? Or was it just too much arrogance like that this music must be enjoyed as a full album and not as a single track? Either way, this was not to B5's advantage.

Re: And so it begins...

[dbIII]

What really irked me was the human characters betraying their oath to Earth and going native after they had kicked Clark out of office.

That was half the point of the series. Even Republicans should be able to relate to it if after the "birther" stuff with Obama.

Re: And so it begins...

[dbIII]

OK, misread that and missed the "after" - need to sleep and avoid posting after people wake me up early because they have trouble getting their email at 4am.

Re: And so it begins...

[radarskiy]

"then Sheridan came back from the dead with a Messiah Complex."
Note that this was part of the arc from the beginning, it just would have been Sinclair. After Michael O'Hare had to leave, Sinclair didn't die but he did turn out to be an actual Messiah.

"the human characters betraying their oath to Earth and going native after they had kicked Clark out of office."
They were forced out, because they had taken up arms against EarthGov despite having done it for the "right" reasons.

Luchenko: "Right or wrong, you lead an insurrection against against your own government. That's mutiny at best. Treason at worst."
Sheridan: "So, morally I was right. Politically, I was inconvenient." ...
Luchenko: "... The bitch of it is, you probably did the right thing, but you did it in the wrong way, the inconvenient way. Now you have to pay the penalty for that. I know it stinks, but that's the way it is. So you tell me, which way do you want it?"

" The Whitestar fleet or at least one example thereof should have been turned over to Earthforce R&D after the war."
The White Stars were joint creations of the Minbari and Vorlons and they didn't have to turn over a damn thing. Earth had no claim over them.

Re: And so it begins...

[dbIII]

The really odd thing with B5 is the main characters were cast mostly with amateurs and the bit parts with masters of the craft, which was a budget thing and sheer luck getting some cast members so cheap. All of the above plus Claudia Christian and Mira Furlan were initially not paid much at all for their roles (Claudia was never paid much and was fired by a producer when she insisted on a raise for S5, leaving a problem for JMS he never really solved). With time JMS gave them enough screen time to shine. With the telemovies it sucked because he couldn't get them cheap anymore so there were less cast members to interact.

Re: And so it begins...

[Zxern]

Which thankfully isn't a problem nowadays. Otherwise shows like Game of thrones or Walking Dead would suffer the same fate and poor ratings that Babylon 5 did.

Re: And so it begins...

[cheesybagel]

The main back story plot point of the botched first contact was fine. You have to remember their leader died in that first contact. Wars start for all sorts of stupid reasons. As for the number of fatalities being low that is explained as they mostly fought in the colonies or in space where few people actually lived. If they actually started bombarding Earth as they planned then the fatalities would increase a lot.

Re: And so it begins...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bzzt. The pilot was made on Toasters, yes. The series was made on a render farm of NT workstations. Then somewhere around season three, they started compositing in some practical FX with the digital (improved explosions). There was no "secret", it was simply very good use of Lightwave, and there was no "real time"-- the CGI was rendered one frame at a time, and assembled / composited on digital tape. The primary benefit was cost-- Build one Hyperion class heavy cruiser, swap out the name plate texture, now you've got another... duplicate it a few times across the screen, create an Omega class destroyer, duplicate it a few times (and during "Severed Dreams", get the name plates wrong at least once), throw in a few dozen Star Furies-- you've got an Epic Space Battle-- whereas the model guys are shooting the same scene over and over and over and moving things around by hand. CGI made it faster and cheaper.

Paramount, and specifically the Star Trek crowd, insisted that CGI wasn't good enough, and they would only use model shots... well, that, and the computer generated stuff ILM filmed at fantastic expense for the first season of ST:TNG. One of their complaints was the harshness of shadows in space due to the lack of atmospheric scattering-- which is accurate, but looks jarring.

Foundation Imaging (the wiki page is badly flawed) had among it's team Ron Thornton (designed among other things the White Star, if I recall), an old hand at special effects-- he did a lot of work during Peter Davison's era on Doctor Who.

Then Foundation Imaging and B5 parted ways at the end of season three, and Doug Netter set up a company to do the CGI work for seasons four and five (and Crusade and the B5 tv movies).

Re: And so it begins...

[drinkypoo]

Was it really that hard to have a 20-30 second "Previously on Babylon 5" giving you at least the essentials of the back story?

Babylon 5 was a show for nerds, most of whom had access to the internet and could look up the lurker's guide to babylon 5 on hyperion. As a supposed nerd (welcome to Slashdot!) you don't get to complain that you couldn't comprehend Babylon 5 because you found it impenetrable. I hope you've learned to internet since then, bro.

Also, who gives a flying fuck why anyone is fighting anyone? You sound like one of my parents trying to understand Anime. You know, the kind that opens on a battle or something and they start asking the same questions you're asking. "Who are they? Why are they fighting? What's going on?" Seriously? Their species (or at least faction) will be referred to by name at least once in the episode. Assign them the temporary label of "aggressor" and watch the episode to find out what happens.

The facts that Babylon 5 has a story arc and doesn't shit on the loyal viewer by treating them like a dildo are features, not drawbacks — especially today, when ubiquitous and ready access to information (or past episodes) is expected.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

Star Dreck was shit from the start, and Rottenberry's "vision" was at best naive claptrap and at worst unredeemable drivel.

That was kind of the point of Star Trek, or at least the point of TNG and to a lesser extent TOS. I'm sorry that you didn't get that, it wasn't for everyone, but it was and is the reason why the reboot completely sucks ass and has nothing in common with Star Trek other than the title and character names.

Is the near-utopia presented in The Next Generation attainable? Probably not, human nature being what it is, though if anything made it possible it would be an abundance economy with virtually limitless supplies of energy that can literally make food and consumer goods out of thin air. The notion of people working towards the common good rather than personal enrichment is a lofty one, hence the fiction part of Science-Fiction.

It was a lot more enjoyable than the dark depressing crap that passes for entertainment these days, like Law and Order Rape (err, I'm sorry, Special Victims Unit) or even some of the darker Sci-Fi stuff, like the really misanthropic episodes of Babylon 5 or Battlestar Galactica. Yeah, I get it, character conflict is fun to write. Does anybody know how to write uplifting stories anymore? It'd be nice to have something more grown up than Frozen to turn to when I need to escape for two hours.

Bad "science" (only loserboy nerds known as "trekkie pedophile geeks" can delude themselves into believing any of that shitty technobabble can ever be related to real science)

Star Trek at its best was never about the "science". It was about the story and the characters. As long as they remained consistent about the fake science who cares? Go watch the third, fourth, and fifth seasons of TNG or any of DS9 or TOS. The technobabble was there, but it played by a known and consistent set of rules. The particle of the week deus ex machina technobabble crap was primarily a 7th season TNG problem (the writers clearly ran out of ideas) and long running Voyager phenomenon.

B5 was vastly superior to DS9 (which was a shameless ripoff)

The only parts of B5 that DS9 ripped off were the Messiah Complex/Emissary crap of the Commanding Officer. Coincidentally, that was also the least watchable part of DS9. I wanted to shove Sisko out an airlock when he stopped talking about "wormhole aliens" and started talking about "Prophets".

Re: And so it begins...

[Kjella]

The Whitestar fleet or at least one example thereof should have been turned over to Earthforce R&D after the war, but that would required Sheridan to surrender power, so of course it didn't happen.

The Whitestar fleet was built on Minbari/Vorlon technology, it had Minbari crews with the occasional human ranger from the Anla'shok and once Sinclair was gone they followed Delenn as their leader, not Sheridan. True, Sheridan and Ivanova got to command a few but they were never Earthforce ships. Just like when Delenn came to Babylon 5's rescue in the first place, they stood with Sinclair but that didn't mean the Minbari were giving away the ships or their technology. In short, he wouldn't have the authority to make that kind of decision. He did step down and resign from Earthforce. All the Earthforce ships and crew that followed him got the amnesty. The Whitestar fleet and League ships returned to their true masters.

The most important piece of back story was pretty damned stupid, the Minbari have thousands of years in space but start a war of annihilation (a pathetic one at that, only 250,000 deaths in two years of war, JMS needs to read about the Eastern Front....) over a botched first contact?

Think more like ancient monarchies, the first contact is basically assassinating the king. That would be enough justification for a small genocide as the nobility won't stop until the enemy's leader has paid the same price in return with commoners as their cannon fodder. This is a caste society, all men are absolutely not created equal. As for 250,000 deaths that was Earth's outposts and colonies and crews - you can't kill more than there is to kill. The final battle where they surrendered was on Earth's doorstep, just as the last lines of defense were falling. So far 536 people have been to space and only 6 of them are currently there. I'd say we'd need to speed way up to put 250,000 humans in space at once by 2245.

Then they stop the war because of some religious nonsense?

Have you looked at actual religious nonsense? You do know we've had civilizations that practiced human sacrifice and so much fucked up shit you wouldn't believe. And that it was too crazy for the people to know was part of the plot, it was a secret only held by the Grey Council and probably not many of the religious caste either - if they told one third of their population someone would surely tell. The Grey Council wanted to surrender, so surrender they did. There's a lot of regimes like that here on Earth today where questioning your orders would be a very stupid thing indeed. Particularly when it's a rather harmless order and not something that's likely to get you killed.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

The White Stars were joint creations of the Minbari and Vorlons and they didn't have to turn over a damn thing. Earth had no claim over them.

Who commanded them in a war against his own people? Who had previously sworn an oath to Earth? Who killed (rightly or wrongly) thousands of humans and left Earth nearly defenseless? Sheridan treated the White Stars as his own personal toys, with full support from Delenn, it's not a huge reach to imagine Earthforce getting their hands on one, particularly if Sheridan had actually upheld his oath once Clark was gone.

You want to know what would have been a good story in the B5 universe? The Minbari Warrior Caste nutjobs actually seizing power (hopefully killing that religious zealot Delenn in the process) and going on a vendetta against a weakened Earth. Let Sherdian reap what he sowed in leaving Earth nearly defenseless, then have him build an alliance to combat that threat, to save something we actually give a shit about. That would have been infinitely more compelling than trying to figure out why all these humans are fighting and dying to stop the Shadows, whom never really expressed any interest in harming humanity. All they did was stir up chaos amongst races that the audience rarely saw and was never overly invested in caring about. Yawn.

As it happened, the most compelling story JMS had (President Clark and the Civil War) was the one that got short shrift because of the looming threat of cancellation. More's the pity.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

Wars start for all sorts of stupid reasons.

There's a difference between a war and a holy quest for genocide. One would expect a race that's smart enough to go to the stars not to start the latter over a botched first contact. Failing that, one would expect them to actually wage a competent war of annihilation, but they couldn't even manage to do that.

Stalingrad, one lousy campaign in a war of annihilation, six months of fighting: 2,000,000 casualties on both sides
Earth-Minbari War, two years, conducted across light-years, including a last stand to save the human race: 250,000 casualties on one side, unstated (probably hundreds?) but low numbers on the other

It doesn't pass the smell test, and even if we excuse JMS' obvious lack of knowledge regarding geopolitics/military matters, the back story was laughable.

Re: And so it begins...

[Mascot]

Yeah, I have the same issue. It takes me a while to get into it every time. I also struggle for the first few episodes of season 5. But with a few episodes under my belt, it's like a snowball gaining momentum.

Re: And so it begins...

[roc97007]

Regarding the Sinclair -> Sheridan switch (which I didn't mind, I never particularly cared for Sinclair), there was a quite good reason for it.

Wow, I didn't know. For O'Hare to be struggling with mental illness, and still be concerned about the rest of the cast, and for the show to continue, shows character like you seldom see anymore. And JMS trying to accomodate O'Hare where it was in his power to do so, even when it put the show at risk, shows integrity over and above what one would expect from the entertainment industry. Really puts today's spoiled, intolerant divas in a different light, doesn't it?

Re: And so it begins...

[Dogtanian]

I never particularly cared for Sinclair

I know a lot of people seem to prefer Sheridan, and that Boxleitner was JMS's original choice, but I actually preferred O'Hare's Sinclair and was sorry to see him go.

Re: And so it begins...

[blackpaw]

I'm sorry, as much as I loved Babylon 5, it simply doesn't stand the test of time when you watch it in your 30s rather than as a teenager.

I watched it for the first time in my 30s and still found it absolutely brilliant. Just sayin'.

First saw it in my 40's here and I must agree - great show - plot, characters and yes the effects. I still think they stand up ok.

Still enjoy re-watching a season.

Re: And so it begins...

[pjbgravely]

It was written as a 5 series arc. After the 3rd season they thought the 4th would be the last so they combined the 4th and 5th into one season. When they didn't get canceled there was noting left of the arc for the 5th season so it is fluff.

Re: And so it begins...

[Uberbah]

Not fluff, just a bit anti-climatic after resolving both the situation on Earth and the Shadow War. The telepath war was a BFD but it took time to build up the story.

Re: And so it begins...

[Uberbah]

Have you considered Colon Blow to treat that uptight pedantic Hatorade?

Re: And so it begins...

[Darinbob]

What I hated was how the networks treated the show. They'd shift it around in time or cancel it, without giving advance notice to viewers. So it was a real chore at time to keep watching. At once point when it was announced that the next season was moving to the TNT channel the local broadcaster decided to cancel halfway through the season with no warning (but managed to catch a rerun of one of the missed episodes at 2am from a neighboring market that I could just pick up if I held the antenna right).

What was surprising was that the networks picked on B5 so much even though there was nothing else on at the time worth watching (and that includes DS9).

Re: And so it begins...

[mjwx]

And Walter Koenig's hop from roles as Chekov in Star Trek to Alfred Bester in Babylon 5 was... well, you have to go watch the shows to understand the _completely_ different role Walter Koenig plays, and to applaud the acting and the writing that created it.

JMS's first choice for the role of Bester was Patrick Mcgoohan and the character was primarily written with him in mind, that being said, Koeing did a fantastic job of taking the character and running with it. JMS did a very good job with the regular antagonists. Morden was another good example, like Bester designed to completely retard sympathy.

Re: And so it begins...

[osu-neko]

What really irked me was the human characters betraying their oath to Earth and going native after they had kicked Clark out of office.

They didn't betray their oath. Arguably they upheld their oath better than others. They did what was in Earth's best interest, even when Earth's government (and probably most of its people) would consider them traitors for it. Their oath was to Earth, not its government, and they chose the path of true loyalty rather than blind obedience. You seem to be confusing loyalty to your country with loyalty to your government. Sometimes the former requires defying the latter.

Re: And so it begins...

[pjbgravely]

To each his own, the only episode I really like in the 5th season is night of the dead.

Re: And so it begins...

[Psykechan]

The season 5 (and series) finale Sleeping in Light was made as part of season 4. It's the one that takes place 20 years in the future. When they got picked up by TNT, they quickly made Deconstruction of Falling Stars as a season 4 finale. That's the episode that shows things far in the future.

It also explains why Ivanova was in Sleeping in Light and Lochley wasn't even mentioned.

Re: And so it begins...

[darrellm]

I somehow completely missed that Michael O'Hare had died in 2012 although I had heard about the deaths of the other three, After reading this story I went to IMDB and saw JMS explanation about his schizophrenia. I agree that most people seemed to think of O'Hare's Sheridan as wooden. I agree this type of personality is not as marketable in a lead actor, but to me there seemed to be an earnestness about him that gave me more of a sense of trust in him. This earnestness really came into play during his final explanation of his destiny in 'War Without End' part 2. He was very moving and I thought he really blew it out of the water and it's something that I don't think Boxleitner could have pulled off as well as O'Hare did. But I always felt badly about Michael O'Hare's fate after Babylon 5 and hearing about his mental illness makes it even more tragic. My own father suffered from a mental illness as well so I guess this makes me feel closer to him.

Re: And so it begins...

[kenwd0elq]

Most television programs stink at dialog; because it's all written down first, and most actors can't be bothered to figure out how to make their characters speak in their own voices. Bab5 was less bad than most, because most of the episodes were written by JMS. Most TV programs are written by committee, or by outsiders, or by a rotating staff of writers.

Re: And so it begins...

[TheRaven64]

Boxleitner grew into the role, but at the start he lacked the gravitas that O'Hare brought to the part. He just didn't seem like someone that I'd trust to be in charge of something as complex as a battleship, let alone a huge diplomatic outpost.

Re: And so it begins...

[TheRaven64]

The flashbacks to the telepath war in Crusade make it look interesting, and apparently it is in the novels. The real problem with season 5 was that it was set in the lull between interesting things. After the Shadow War, after the Civil Wars (human and minbari), but before the Telepath War or any of the other things that JMS had put into the timeline. Even the fall of Centauri Prime was more setup than main event (providing a base for the Drakh to operate from over the next 20 years). It was Part 1, but you can't put Part 1 at the end of a 5-year story.

Re: And so it begins...

[Shakrai]

The Shadows were directly responsible for President Clark's rise to power

Debatable, the takeaway I had from the show was that the Psi-Corps was largely responsible for it.

and wholly approved his slow transmutation of Earth society into something that bore an uncannily-prescient resemblance to what happened to the US after 9/11

I'm going to ignore the hyperbolic statement about 9/11 (really dude?) and just point out the fact that the Shadows never really seemed to give two shits about the domestic politics of any of their puppet races, least of all humanity. And in such a situation as the B5 universe, humanity would have to be incredibly stupid not to take advantage of any scraps of technology the Shadows were willing to dole out, particularly given the aforementioned issues on Minbar and the fact that the survival of the human race depends on being able to effectively defend it against aliens with many times our technology.

Re: And so it begins...

[geminidomino]

Debatable, the takeaway I had from the show was that the Psi-Corps was largely responsible for [Clark's rise to power].

Check out "Matters of Honor" (S03E01) and "Voices of Authority" (S03E05). At the end of the former, it's revealed that Morden (faceman for the Shadows) is conspiring with PsiCorps and members of the Senate. In the latter, the communication Ivanova intercepts reveals that the Shadows, via Morden again, set up the assassination.

Re: And so it begins...

[JackieBrown]

Who commanded them in a war against his own people? Who had previously sworn an oath to Earth? Who killed (rightly or wrongly) thousands of humans and left Earth nearly defenseless? ......

As it happened, the most compelling story JMS had (President Clark and the Civil War) was the one that got short shrift because of the looming threat of cancellation. More's the pity.

I agree with this 100%. When Sheridan reacted in rage after the EA ship destroyed the civilian ship, I was pissed. It was very familiar to the way Delenn reacted that started the Earth - Mimbari war.) Especially when he acted like he was going into a fair fight with the white star fleet at his disposal.

And toward your comments earlier about the messiah Sheridan... it was very frustrating watching because everything Garibaldi was saying and complaining about regarding Sheridan was true. I would have loved to see the crew more evenly split among choosing Sheridan or Garibaldi.

Re: And so it begins...

[david_thornley]

Earthforce had Shadow technology. In the civil war, Ivanova leads some White Stars to fight the new destroyers, since she figures they're the only ships with a chance, and very nearly gets killed.

The civil war was also an outgrowth of the Shadow wars. The Shadows were behind President Clark, the brainwashing and shipping of human telepaths to create Shadow ships, and the attempted destruction of freedom on Earth. When making contact with Mars Colony, Dr. Franklin and Marcus encounter somebody who already has a Drakh keeper. Earth Alliance has what is apparently a diplomatic mission to Z'ha'Dum.

After the civil war, Sheridan was given no choice: the best deal he could get was his resignation and amnesty for those who followed him. Earth was specifically promised some Minbari technology in exchange for joining the InterStellar Alliance. As an Alliance member, Earth would have been protected from rogue Minbari.

In fact, in one of the made-for-TV movies, Sheridan does his best to save Earth from direct Drakh attack.

In short, the reason you think it a bad story is that you missed most of what was going on.

Re: And so it begins...

[soccerisgod]

Even after all those years I still hear the voices of the actors in my head as I read that. That's true love 3

Re: And so it begins...

[NulDevice]

B%'s dialogue was mostly awful and heavy-handed, because JMS (at least at the time) wrote a LOT of expository, comic-booky stuff. Given over the years he's matured having been a script editor for a lot of bigger name, subtler stuff, one would hope he's got a grasp of it now. BUt back then, whooweee there was a lot of leaden phrasing. It took actors with a lot of gravitas, like Katsulas and Jurasik to make some of that stuff work. Unfortunately most of the actors lacked that.

And then there's the whole thing that 90% of the foreshadowing was done by either time-jump flashforwards or a riddle-talking alien.

I also found the central conceit of the Vorlon/Shadow conflict, and the resolution thereof, deeply unsatisfying. Millions-of-years-old ultrapowerful Type IV civilisations and their endless conflict reads like a 1st-year philosophy paper - and is resolved by some dude yelling "Shut up! Go away! I LEARNED IT FROM WATCHING YOU, DAD!" Buh.

Re: And so it begins...

[Veretax]

My problem, was I only remembered him (Boxleitner) for one other roll. As 'super spy' Scarecrow in Scarecrow and Mrs King. As a kid, a show I didn't really appreciate till i got older and saw reruns.

Re: And so it begins...

[NulDevice]

...unless he's a fan of the author for whom Bester is named.

Re: And so it begins...

[kenwd0elq]

Preferences vary. I was a big B5 fan of the original shows, read about them in the "lurker's guide" site first on USENET, and later on Hyperion. I'll happily go see a rebooted Babylon 5 in the theaters - even though as a big Star Trek fan (I watched them on our little TV on the original broadcasts), I haven't been to any of the rebooted Star Trek movies.

"A willing suspension of disbelief". Babylon 5 had it. Star Trek, in my opinion, did not.

Re: And so it begins...

[anyGould]

I know it's difficult, but the series arc works better if you ignore season 5.

Well, properly - the series arc ends at season 4. Season 5 is the "everything else" season (basically, the B-plots that got bumped from season 4 to make room to finish the main arc). There's a lot of good stuff in there (the telepaths are a bit weak-sauce, I'll admit), but I enjoy it mainly for covering the "yay, we saved the day! Wait, what do you mean we have to keep working tomorrow?" angle that is often missing from big heroic stories. (Yes, you've started the ISA. Now you need to run it. Yes, you've sent the elder races away. Well, there were folks who really liked working for the Shadows and are a bit miffed that you chased them away. Hey, remember all those telepaths that saved your bacon? Time to pay the piper...)

Netflix Time Now?

[Oliver Wendell Jones]

Maybe they could get around to putting the series up on Netflix so that the rest of the world, other than hardcore scifi nerds, will get a chance to view it and be ready for when it comes to theaters?

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[GrumpySteen]

It's a reboot, not a continuation. It starts from the beginning, so you don't have to see the TV series in order to watch the movie.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[RoninRodent]

It looks pretty awful on anything with a HD resolution these days so that probably wouldn't help it.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[TheLongshot]

Unfortunately, there isn't anything they can do about that without a huge infusion of money. Basically, they lost all of the FX material and it would all have to be redone from scratch. That's the problem with a relatively low-budget production.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[bill_mcgonigle]

It looks pretty awful on anything with a HD resolution these days so that probably wouldn't help it.

So does Star Trek (TOS, heck even some of TNG) but people still love watching them for the stories and they always make the Netflix most-popular lists.

And, heck, arguably B5 has a better story than Trek ever did.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[oogoliegoogolie]

They FX look old, they don't look awful. I look thru the 90's CGI and see that the fights are some of the best directed, edited, musically scored battles ever.
I still get goosebumps and my heart pounds when I watch the fights when B5 seceded from the Earth Alliance, the Shadow War, the battle to free Proxima, the fight with the Centauri vessel when B5 was protecting the Narn cruiser (the sweeping camera arc showing the B5 interceptors intercepting the Centauri shells) among many others.
That being said, I always thought that the PPG's look silly.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Rockoon]

We are aware because you mention it every single time that netflix is mentioned. What you fail to realize is that we don't care. it is your problem, not ours. Perhaps you should treat it as such?

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Dragon Bait]

And, heck, arguably B5 has a better story than Trek ever did.

Star Trek had a story? What made B5 great was that there was a story arc. Star Trek never seemed to have any continuity from one episode to the next.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[lgw]

Maybe they could get around to putting the series up on Netflix

All the discs are available, last I looked. I don't know why you'd look for anything on the vast wasteland that is Netflix streaming - there's nothing there but tumbleweeds and Netflix-original stuff.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Plumpaquatsch]

Unfortunately, there isn't anything they can do about that without a huge infusion of money. Basically, they lost all of the FX material and it would all have to be redone from scratch. That's the problem with a relatively low-budget production.

Even if they still had the material it would have to be redone - low polygon count models and low res textures don't make good HD images.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Plumpaquatsch]

And, heck, arguably B5 has a better story than Trek ever did.

Star Trek had a story? What made B5 great was that there was a story arc. Star Trek never seemed to have any continuity from one episode to the next.

TNG had story arcs from season one, but they were never the focus.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[quantaman]

And, heck, arguably B5 has a better story than Trek ever did.

Star Trek had a story? What made B5 great was that there was a story arc. Star Trek never seemed to have any continuity from one episode to the next.

Different kinds of story.

Star Trek at its best was short fiction told in space. The main characters left to themselves would be fine, but external events turned them into foils against which the actual story unfolded. After the story they'd generally reset so the next episode could tell a new story.

B5 was a character drama told in space. The main characters left to themselves generated the story. They had to evolve in order for the story to advance.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[stox]

The Prisoner, 1967, had a story arc.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Plumpaquatsch]

It looks pretty awful on anything with a HD resolution these days so that probably wouldn't help it.

So does Star Trek (TOS, heck even some of TNG) but people still love watching them for the stories and they always make the Netflix most-popular lists.

Depends on what you are looking at - both B5 and the older ST shows were filmed on film, and the FX for ST TOS and most for TNG were also done on film, while those for B5 were digital and rendered to be good enough (if that) for analog TV resolution.

The resolution of film is good enough to at least look better on HD than on SD - but the digital effects will show the pixels.

And that's ignoring that for both TOS and TNG Paramount has released HD versions with "better" FX.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Electricity Likes Me]

Agree with this. The effects look old, but they still carry the emotional punch when they need to. I can remember absolutely all of those scenes perfectly, so they clearly did something very right.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Hamsterdan]

Except that a lot of the ships (and station itself) *have* been redone for the 2007 stories. And I'm pretty sure the people that made the amateur videos would be happy to give them the models.

An amateur redid parts of a battle from DS9 in HD, and was asked by someone from Foundation Imaging to contact him (don't remember where I've read this). DS9 also used motion control for the ships, which makes it even harder, and it could be possible to do it.

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/...

Since B5 was entirely CGI, it would be easier. If the morons at WB didn't insist to have a 16:9 format for the DVDs, it would look so much better than blowing and cropping the CGI stuff.

http://www.modeemi.fi/~leopold...

In fact, the episode previews on the DVDs look *so much* better, even on a big screen...

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Dragonslicer]

There hasn't been any confirmation that it will be a "reboot", even though the word keeps getting used. Doing a reboot where everything that has already been done is completely ignored and the same story is told a different way seems to me to not be the kind of thing that JMS would do, especially since I can't imagine trying to tell the entire story of the series in one movie, or even a few movies. I would think it's more likely to be an entirely different story set in the same universe, similar to Crusade and Legend of the Rangers.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[dbIII]

Smooth plastic squid ships are a solution that lasts when it takes too much time to render a lot of polygons. Half seen giant black space spiders with a texture taken from a dogs nose (I'm serious, it sniffed the hand scanner) still look awesome because you can't see enough to see the flaws.
It's like toy story. They only had the rendering power to make things look like plastic toys and it worked because that's what they did.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Anonymous Coward]

JMS is writing it. JMS has said it's a reboot. Specifically, he'd love to get some of the old cast back, in different roles-- he envisions Boxleitner as Earth President (Santiago, or Clark??!?-- Boxleitner could probably play a very terrifying Vice President Clark).

So yeah-- reboot. But at least by the guy who wrote the original, and knows what mistakes he made. :)

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[LihTox]

Agreed; why would JMS spend his own money to redo something he's already done?

So while everybody here is talking about B5, we really should be talking about those subsequent series/movies and how they measure up.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Bing Tsher E]

I'm so glad they haven't been permitted to fuck with The Prisoner yet. It's been re-released after cleanup, but they haven't been allowed to fuck with it.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Bing Tsher E]

My wife watches tons of Star Trek on Netflix. I believe she watched the whole TNG series in order on her Galaxy Tab via Netflix. I saw ol' baldy on her tablet earlier today.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[Plumpaquatsch]

The Prisoner, 1967, had a story arc.

So did The Fugitive.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[TheRaven64]

Some do. For example, there's a big window in the captain's office that looks out over the centre of the station (they're really inconsistent about gravity in B5, but that's a different issue), and it was only when I watched a 'making of' thing after seeing the entire series that I realised that it was meant to be a window. I thought it was a painting. I still think the space scenes look okay, but some of the backdrops - especially on planets - are pretty bad. They used CGI because they couldn't afford the location / model work that bigger-budget shows used.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[soccerisgod]

Or they could ask those crazy guys from Finland. Their CGI in such movies as Star Wreck and Iron Sky looks pretty damn convincing, and as I understand it, their budget was pretty small, compared to the result. And for the former, they actually did B5 CGI...

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[DiEx-15]

Maybe they could get around to putting the series up on Netflix so that the rest of the world, other than hardcore scifi nerds, will get a chance to view it and be ready for when it comes to theaters?

They did or at least they use to have it on Netflix.

Re:Netflix Time Now?

[cwsumner]

It looks pretty awful on anything with a HD resolution these days so that probably wouldn't help it.

Move back, you are too close to the screen.

...but there are already films

[tuppe666]

The whole point behind babylon 5 was the huge story arcs...two great ones. I will watch the movie...but I don't care like I would about a series. Its a shame too as there is not many "in space" series at the moment.

Re:...but there are already films

[lgw]

It was also very dependent on the cast. It takes a lot for the audience to relate to guys in alien costumes, even SF nerds like me. I'm doubtful the magic will happen again.

Wow, a lot of the cast died so young - Jeff Conaway to drugs, Andreas Katsulas to smoking, Richard Biggs at 44 to a heart condition. Good to see Stephen Furst still going (aside from playing my favorite character on B5, he successfully changed his dangerous lifestyle during the B5 years, losing almost 100 pounds).

But whatever else goes wrong, at least the fighters "in space" won't fly like jets. Did any other SF TV series or movie get that right? The space battles are still cool to watch, aging effects and all, just because it makes some physical sense.

Re:...but there are already films

[nabsltd]

The whole point behind babylon 5 was the huge story arcs...two great ones. I will watch the movie...but I don't care like I would about a series.

Perhaps a B5 movie could be a launch for a B5 multimedia universe like the Marvel Universe. The tie-in between the theatrical movies and the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. TV show is excellent.

Sci-Fi, fantasy, and comic book are excellent genres for a character-driven TV series with tie-in theatrical movies for the big events that need that kind of FX budget. Even some action/adventure could benefit from this. Imagine a "James Bond universe" where the TV series doesn't have Bond in it very much at all. It could still be very fun, and build up the plot to a movie.

Re:...but there are already films

[elfprince13]

BSG is the only other series that comes close with the physically accurate dogfighting. The Vipers are still *designed* like jets, but they don't fly like them.

Re:...but there are already films

[Electricity Likes Me]

There's a reason for that too though, since they explicitly deploy and fly Viper's in the atmosphere several times during the run of the show. So they'd have to be at least aerodynamic enough for that (they also imply that atmosphere use uses way more fuel then space combat, relatively).

This was the best...

[McLae]

This was the best series on TV. And best of all, of you watch on DVD, you see the hints and snippets that point to later plot threads. I cannot count the many times I realized the current plot started 3 episodes ago, but now is the main action. And best of all, this was the first series to kill off 'major' characters, after three of four episodes to get you familiar with the poor lamb. Now common, this was the first with the guts to start. Oh, and the strong women (I found my own Ivanova!!)

Re:This was the best...

[Richy_T]

That was one of the great things. It not only had Chekhov's gun, it also had Chekhov.

Re:This was the best...

[Martin Blank]

"And best of all, this was the first series to kill off 'major' characters"

That's not true. Off the top of my head, MASH killed Henry Blake, and that was probably the first time a major character was killed off in a major series (other than a cast member dying). It was much more sporadic before the 90s, but it did happen.

Re:This was the best...

[Black Parrot]

This was the best series on TV.

The more you like a show, the more you should hope no one decides to revive it.

Re:This was the best...

[nabsltd]

That's not true. Off the top of my head, MASH killed Henry Blake, and that was probably the first time a major character was killed off in a major series (other than a cast member dying).

In the case of McLean Stevenson, he quit the show, and instead of just writing his character out, they killed him. This is no different from any other show where the actor's off-screen circumstances (death, etc.) caused the show to have to write around it.

On B5, however, characters that you grew to love (like Marcus) were "dead men walking" from the first second they appeared on screen, because that's what JMS had already written. AFAIK, B5 really was the first to kill off characters as part of the planned plot where the actor had front of the show credit. It's still rare today partially because those actors get paid more money because of union rules, and partially because studios and networks want a more stable cast they can sell to advertisers. Mostly, the "planned deaths" are a supporting character. Person of Interest is one of the few recent shows I can think of that killed off a truly major character, and didn't do it at the end of a season.

Re:This was the best...

[drinkypoo]

And best of all, this was the first series to kill off 'major' characters

Come, now. Even Transformers and G.I. Joe killed off major recurring characters.

Re:This was the best...

[cranky_chemist]

"Person of Interest is one of the few recent shows I can think of that killed off a truly major character, and didn't do it at the end of a season."

I can only assume you've never watched "Sons of Anarchy," or, for that matter, "The Shield."

Re: This was the best...

[Martin Blank]

They used the opportunity afforded by him leaving to kill MacLean Stevenson's character, but it wasn't out of spite. They did it to remind the audience that the show took place during a war. The studios were livid with the decision, as they had not been consulted and didn't like that they couldn't bring him back later.

You may be right that B5 was the first to plan it this way, though that wasn't the way it was originally phrased.

Re: This was the best...

[JackieBrown]

The sad thing is that it was great - that said, only season 2 and 3 were very consistent in that greatness.

4 was rushed and it showed with the terrible resolutions to the Earth Civil War and Shadow War. 5 was awful except for the Centari storyline. Season 1 was good but only in hindsight.

The solution to the Shadow War was awful and really felt like a cheat. More set up should have been given for the Shadows fear of abandonment ("so we will not be alone?") as a motivation that end the war. The Vorlons were very uneven as well. If Kosh 1 was the only one that cared about humans, why did the Vorlon fleet fight the shadows? And why did Kosh 1 not do more - anything - to fill Sheridan in on what the war was really about?

Re:This was the best...

[nabsltd]

I can only assume you've never watched "Sons of Anarchy," or, for that matter, "The Shield.",/quote>

No, I haven't, but I'm willing to bet that nobody killed off had front of show "star" credit. A quick look also shows that most of the deaths in both shows appear to be near the beginning/end of seasons, which almost always means that the actor was moving on to something else, and the death was just written in.

Noice!

[dicobalt]

This series deserves a reboot and maybe even more seasons, let's go Doctor Who on this thing.

What's a reboot?

[frovingslosh]

I loved B5. I hate reboots, at least as I understand the word. I have no problem with replacing the actors. That happens frequently in movie franchises. James Bond has been played by a number of actors, and even the gender of a major supporting character was changed in that franchise without calling it a reboot. In my mind a reboot is when the producers and/or director want to take advantage of the name and existing fan base, but decide to do two other distasteful things: First, change key story concepts that have already been established, and second, they usually want to retell yet another origin story. Why is this being called a reboot, and is JMS calling it a reboot himself or are others just misusing the term? I'll gladly go see a new B5 movie (and I really don't go to many movies), but I'll avoid a B5 reboot like I would avoid an Ebola infected missionary. If JMS wants to tell a completely different Sci-fi story then I would welcome that too, but he should not reuse the B5 name, If he wants to pick back up story telling in the B5 universe then he shouldn't try to tear down what has already been done.

On a side note, the list of lost actors from the B5 production should include Tim Choate who played my favorite character, Zathras.

Re:What's a reboot?

[Snard]

I would say that "reboot" can mean different things, in much the same way that "Zathras" can refer to more than one individual, depending on how you pronounce it :) There is the one you describe (change the story line / concepts), but I think it's also possible to simply retell the story, or perhaps tell "more of the story" (i.e. start a bit earlier in the arc, or give additional background). Our technology has changed a bit since 1994 (I mean, gad, we were still running Windows for Workgroups back then!) so it makes sense that we can better imagine the future from this perspective. I respect JMS and believe he would not tamper with the core precepts in the series. And while there are lots of faithful fans who remember the original series, there is also a huge audience of people who aren't familiar with the original series & would enjoy an excellent space opera.

Re:What's a reboot?

[GNious]

I heard they wanted to do a reboot of Star Trek, which I guess could be interesting ... I mean, it's been 12 years since a Star Trek movie was last released.

Re:What's a reboot?

[msk]

True, and it looks like we'll never have another Star Wars movie.

Re:What's a reboot?

[Savage-Rabbit]

I heard they wanted to do a reboot of Star Trek, which I guess could be interesting ... I mean, it's been 12 years since a Star Trek movie was last released.

I know this is heresy but I liked B5 better than most of the Star Wars and Start Trek stuff.

Re:What's a reboot?

[TrekkieGod]

I know this is heresy but I liked B5 better than most of the Star Wars and Start Trek stuff.

I officially sanction your position. It is not heresy, it's truth. There is certainly Star Trek which is better than anything in B5, but "most" of Star Trek is far inferior.

Re:What's a reboot?

[WCLPeter]

On a side note, the list of lost actors from the B5 production should include Tim Choate who played my favorite character, Zathras.

One of the problems with trying use the original actors in the film is that a significantly large number of them, including Tim Choate, are dead. Though I do agree with you, Zathras was one of my favourites too.

I'm shocked really at how many are gone - since I have fond memories of the show its really hard to think that 20 years is all that long ago but I was watching a video of the Babylon 5 20th Anniversary Reunion at the Phoenix ComicCon filmed in 2013 a few months ago and they had a Video Memorial showing all the fallen stars of B5 and was surprised at how many were gone.

It makes sense that they want to restart with a new cast and I trust JMS to do it right - I doubt we'll see "Old Sheridan" meeting up with "New Sheridan" like "Old Spock" / "New Spock", unless Boxleitner happens to be playing Sheridan's father in the episode.

Re:What's a reboot?

[mrbester]

While there were at least 12 Zathrases, all were played by Tim Choate...

Re:What's a reboot?

[Black Parrot]

True, and it looks like we'll never have another Star Wars movie.

Probably you whooshed me, but Disney bought rights in 2012 and has the first of a sequel trilogy in production and scheduled for release next year.

(Then we'll probably get presequels...)

Re:What's a reboot?

[dunkelfalke]

Here is an interesting example. Macross the anime series and Macross the movie (DYRL). The movie differs a lot from the series, the explanation is that it is a movie in-universe loosely based on what happened during the human-Zentraedi war.

This could be something similar. An in-universe movie about what happened 2258-2261.

Re:What's a reboot?

[msk]

*Whoosh*

There hasn't been a Star Trek movie in twelve years. There won't be another Star Wars movie as long as J.J. Abrams is attached to it. He should stick to the (mediocre) things he does best.

Re:What's a reboot?

[glwtta]

Tim Choate who played my favorite character, Zathras

Don't forget he also played my favorite character: Zathras.

Re:What's a reboot?

[quantaman]

I loved B5. I hate reboots, at least as I understand the word. I have no problem with replacing the actors. That happens frequently in movie franchises. James Bond has been played by a number of actors, and even the gender of a major supporting character was changed in that franchise without calling it a reboot. In my mind a reboot is when the producers and/or director want to take advantage of the name and existing fan base, but decide to do two other distasteful things: First, change key story concepts that have already been established, and second, they usually want to retell yet another origin story. Why is this being called a reboot, and is JMS calling it a reboot himself or are others just misusing the term? I'll gladly go see a new B5 movie (and I really don't go to many movies), but I'll avoid a B5 reboot like I would avoid an Ebola infected missionary. If JMS wants to tell a completely different Sci-fi story then I would welcome that too, but he should not reuse the B5 name, If he wants to pick back up story telling in the B5 universe then he shouldn't try to tear down what has already been done.

On a side note, the list of lost actors from the B5 production should include Tim Choate who played my favorite character, Zathras.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but it's important to remember that it's no guarantee of success. Consider all the elements that can cause a TV show to fail, cast, characters, writing, concept, plots, etc. With the reboot you're starting out on familiar ground so you avoid a lot of potential pitfalls, but you still have a big risk of making a dud.

The original B5 was great, but to be honest it's not doing anything anymore. The people who watched it have already extracted all of the joy they can, and the small minority of people who will watch it in the future will be thrown off by the clunky 90's style writing and special effects.

If there's a chance they can take the concept and try to tell it again, leveraging on the mythos of the old story, I say great. It will probably fail but even if it does I don't see it doing any harm.

Re:What's a reboot?

[Artifakt]

True, and it looks like we'll never have another Star Wars movie.

Weren't three enough?

Re:What's a reboot?

[msk]

Aye. Too bad Leigh Brackett passed away.

Re:What's a reboot?

[Savage-Rabbit]

I know this is heresy but I liked B5 better than most of the Star Wars and Start Trek stuff.

I officially sanction your position. It is not heresy, it's truth. There is certainly Star Trek which is better than anything in B5, but "most" of Star Trek is far inferior.

What I liked about the B5 series was mostly the fact that it had Maciavellian politics and space battles where the fighters didn't fly like aircraft even though they were located in deep space. They made an honest attempt to respect Newtonian physics. I went off the Star Wars series after the "Battle of the Teddy Bears" in Return of the Jedi although I rather like the animated "Clone Wars" series. I never really watched much of the original Star Trek and the Star Trek NG series just bored me out of my scull. The Star Trek shows I watched the most of was Deep Space 9 and Voyager which I rather enjoyed and which is probably even more heretical than saying B5 is better than ST.

Re:What's a reboot?

[Galactic Dominator]

Mediocre? You give far too much credit. Lost was perhaps the worst series ever made.

Re:What's a reboot?

[TrekkieGod]

What I liked about the B5 series was mostly the fact that it had Maciavellian politics and space battles where the fighters didn't fly like aircraft even though they were located in deep space.

Star Trek movies have always been about space battles and ridiculous action, even though people like to blame JJ Abrams for that one. That said, there are quite a few Star Trek episodes that do a good job of dealing with a social issue and/or politics in an interesting way.

I went off the Star Wars series after the "Battle of the Teddy Bears" in Return of the Jedi although I rather like the animated "Clone Wars" series.

For really good Star Wars, you have to go to the books. The same expanded universe that Disney announced is no longer cannon so they can "free up" their screenwriters or some other bullshit. Well, as far as I'm concerned, if I have to choose between the movies or the books to consider cannon in that universe, I'll pick the books every time.

The Star Trek shows I watched the most of was Deep Space 9 and Voyager which I rather enjoyed and which is probably even more heretical than saying B5 is better than ST.

I've emphasized Voyager there for you, because that IS heretical. I hereby authorize burning you alive at the town square.

I mean, c'mon. You just finished praising B5 for making an honest attempt of respecting physics and you finished by praising the show that brought to you polaric ions, nucleonic beams, metrion isotopes, psionic properties, and fluidic fucking space? Every problem in that show is solved with last minute bullshit technobabble. When TNG used technobabble, they had a science advisor on the show to fill in the words, so they'd have some connection, no matter how small and fleeting, to some real science. Voyager just made up works that sounded sciency and they used it as the Deus Ex Machina EVERY...SINGLE...EPISODE..

Re:What's a reboot?

[cbhacking]

VOY was also the worst series about pushing the "RESET!" button at the end of every episode. I don't necessarily require that every show have a multi-series plot continuity (though B5 and DS9 are among my top favorite shows, because they *do*). However, if you're going to make a show about being stranded far from home with limited resources, PLEASE try to remember those limited resources? They fired many times as many photon torpedoes and lost several times as many shuttlecraft as they supposedly carried, for example. They also never had old damage still be a problem in the next episode; with limited replicator capacity (almost never actually a plot point aside from the whole "we need a cook!" thing), the ship should have been a flying patchwork of jury-rigged repairs by the series end. They probably would have written off some (sections of) decks as not worth maintaining anymore, would have lost some of their weapons/sensors/transporter capacity/bridge and engineering consoles (seriously, how many spares did they have that there was never a need to cobble one together from scavenged parts??), and ideally their ship model would have changed a little throughout the show to reveal damaged sections of plating and so forth (yes, I realize this would be expensive, but it would have added greatly to the gritty, barebones struggle for the ship's survival and onward journey).

Re:What's a reboot?

[geminidomino]

The people who watched it have already extracted all of the joy they can

Not even close. I still pull it out every six months or so and spend a week re-watching it.

Re:What's a reboot?

[FilmedInNoir]

From Lost I learned to fear the name Damon Lindelof. Anything he "writes" is just a trail mix of tropes with Christian mythos on top.
Examples: Lost; plot elements get introduced but then never explained or removed if they interfere with the new ones. The entire show ends in a church because the island is Heaven see... The smoke monster was Satan and the polar bear was John the Baptist..... No it's just shit. He re-wrote the script for Prometheus and by that I mean he changed a few hings so it didn't make any sense. Remember the nerd rage because they could of had that alien base on the same planet that Ripley landed on because that would of made sense and connected the two movies visually. Nope, fuck that, this is a new type of alien it's not even related to those Giger ones. Or is it? Nope it's not. HA HA suck it loyal fans of the original movie. Also it goes by fast but the scientist says the alien on the floor has been dead for 2000 years. So something happened on Earth ~2000 years ago that made them want to kill all live on Earth.... Jebus was an Engineer?

Re:What's a reboot?

[Galactic Dominator]

Lindelof is a professed fan of BSG which is where he stole the ending to Lost. Why you would want to plagiarize such a pathetic cop out series finale is beyond me. It makes the ending to Dexter seem fucking brilliant.

Re:What's a reboot?

[david_thornley]

On a side note, the list of lost actors from the B5 production should include Tim Choate who played my favorite character, Zathras.

And also Zathras, in another episode.

Re:What's a reboot?

[JackieBrown]

Yes, but there are very few new viewers.

It is not shown on TV so really, the only real way for it to spread is for people that loved the show to spread it. It's possible if you can get them threw season 1. (I skipped season one with my late wife but she was hooked pretty quick in season 2.)

Re:What's a reboot?

[phorm]

Even BSG? I thought the remake was pretty good for that one. Unlike Star Trek etc, they didn't try to make it new and flashy... so the Galactica had a nice worn feeling instead of an iBridge...

Re:What's a reboot?

[RivenAleem]

I really liked Fringe :/

Re:What's a reboot?

[anyGould]

Yes, but there are very few new viewers.

It is not shown on TV so really, the only real way for it to spread is for people that loved the show to spread it. It's possible if you can get them threw season 1. (I skipped season one with my late wife but she was hooked pretty quick in season 2.)

The secret to hooking viewers is not to sell it as a TV series - it's a novel being shown on television (or a really really multi-part mini-series, I suppose). Season 1 is a bit slow, but mostly we're setting up places and people and themes. Sometimes the villain is a throwaway one-shot, and sometimes it's someone we're going to keep seeing for years and years.

Barring that, there's plenty of sites that list the "essential" episodes, so you can give them the short-version to get them hooked and then back up to get the details.

Fuck me

[future assassin]

please dont reboot!!!! A continuation of the world but no fucking reboot.

Re:Fuck me

[TheRaven64]

I enjoyed Crusade, but it was killed before any of the major plot elements could be resolved, which was annoying.

It may be too late,

[westlake]

"Guardians of the Galaxy" was not a sequel or a reboot.

It suggests as well that audiences have grown more than a little weary of "dark" sci-fi and fantasy.

As much as I admire B5, I think its time may have passed.

Re:It may be too late,

[Wraithlyn]

B5 was full of lighthearted moments and humour (admittedly less so towards the end). Thinking about Londo going "but in purple... I'm STUNNING" still cracks me up just thinking about it. Or G'Kar getting drunk with the grail seeker "They made a very satisfying.. THUMP when they hit the ground". Lennier and Vir commiserating, "they never listen...". Or Sheridan's terrible jokes.. "Kosh who?" / "Gseundheit!". I could go on all day. :)

Sure there was a serious, epic plot underlying it all.. but you can say the same thing about Guardians. I mean, let's not forget that Ronan's goal was to murder billions of innocent people.

Re:It may be too late,

[Artifakt]

I hope audiences are not too tired of "dark", because Guardians set audiences up for one of Marvel's darkest ever story lines. "Darker" than the "Dark Phoenix Saga"? Try darker than 14 year old Kitty Pride with inoperable ovarian cancer.

Warning - Spoiler below, but about an old comics series, not about this movie

Jim Starlin loves to draw comics where Death is the punch line. In the Star Reach underground line, he wrote a story titled "The Birth of Death", and one called "Death Building", Marvel gave Starlin the opportunity to reboot a heroic character one time, and he brought Adam Warlock back as a character who swiftly learns that, within a few years at most, he will kill most of his friends and then die by suicide, in the process of creating a timeline where the schizophrenic anti-messiah he will otherwise become doesn't end up creating the most spectacular genocide evah! ).

End of spoiler
                                   

Re:It may be too late,

[TheRaven64]

I suspect that part of the problem is that JMS won't embrace new distribution methods. I would happily throw $50 into a pot to create a new series in the B5 universe to be released under a license that permits free non-commercial redistribution, with commercial boxed sets available for purchase for collectors. I suspect that there are enough B5 fans who'd be willing to do the same that it would be possible to finance one.

Re:It may be too late,

[david_thornley]

What I regret about Crusade is that it wasn't all that good, but neither was B5 season one, and B5 had a lot less meddling from the network than Crusade. If it had continued, it might have been very good.

Re:It may be too late,

[Veretax]

Absolutely.... The fight with GKar and Michael York as a 'King Arthur' archetype fighting in down below and glorying over the battle. That line ranks among my favorite... along with the one who followed it, when GKar passes out, and Arthur turns to Marcus and says Sir Gawain had the same problem, and we dubbed him the 'Green Knight'... LOL Priceless. Lennier and Vir's 'They never listen..." followed by, 'same time tomorrow?' Was awesome.

What about Babylon Park?

[oogoliegoogolie]

It would be nice to see some new episodes of that.

More Shadows, less Psi's

[Horshu]

Seasons 1-4....awesome. Season 5...not so much. The movies...didn't even watch them.

Re:More Shadows, less Psi's

[Anonymous Coward]

Thirdspace and In The Beginning are like excellent B5 episodes, scaled appropriately to fit the time. You're missing out if you're not watching them.
A Call to Arms is like a very good B5 episode, and you'd also be missing out by not watching it. Great story and great CG in all three of those.

The reason Season 5 is not like the other seasons was that B5 was under threat of cancellation around season 4, so JMS tried to fit the story into seasons 1-4, and create the final episode of season 4. Cancellation did not happen, so JMS extended the story in season 5.

Re:More Shadows, less Psi's

[Wraithlyn]

They thought they weren't getting a Season 5, which is why they rushed to resolve all the major plots by the end of S4, leading to a rather underwhelming S5.

So what you say is true, but not really their fault.

Re:More Shadows, less Psi's

[dunkelfalke]

You absolutely ought to watch "In the beginning".
It is awesome. In fact, better than most B5 episodes.

Re:More Shadows, less Psi's

[JackieBrown]

Call to Arms would be great with a new music score

Kickstarter?

[bungo]

If Kickstarter worked from Veroncia Mars, then I don't see why it wouldn't work for B5.

I'd pay the cost of a DVD/Blu-ray if fund it, it I could get a disc as a reward.

Re:Kickstarter?

[lostinbrave]

I would pay the cost of a disc with just the promise of being able to see the movie.

Before you go rushing off to support JMS...

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider the man's idiotic self-justifications for his work on "Before Watchmen" despite Alan Moore's non-participation.

Shorter JMS (to clarify, a paraphrase of his meaning rather than a direct quote):

"See, people get fucked in this industry all the time. It's the nature of the business. The creators of Superman got fucked. The industry could fuck me if they wanted to. And I, for one, am proud to be one of the dicks DC Comics is using to fuck Alan Moore."

And I say this as a fan of Babylon 5, and with no particular familiarity with or affection for Moore's work.

Re:Before you go rushing off to support JMS...

[wisnoskij]

As another fan of B5, who in general hates JMS, I think you are miscaregorizing that article. Skimming it, it sounds likes Alan Moore never wanted to do anything with Watchmen, ever again, and never wanted anything done with them. But fortunately he did not own Watchmen so eventually they went around his back. It sounds to me, after skimming this article for 5 seconds, that Moore was just being a huge childish dick: "its mine and no one else is allowed to play with it". Now JMS has done his own things to sabotage B5, so it is perfectly legitimate to hate him as well in my books.

Re:Before you go rushing off to support JMS...

[JackieBrown]

JMS would throw a fit at anyone that tried to take over his B5 stuff.

An Uncoditional Truth

[vester.m]

There is but one absolute and unconditional truth in the universe, Babylon 5 was the greatest television show ever.

The Jackson-Hobbit Syndrome in reverse

[tverbeek]

So JMS wants to take a story originally told in over 4700 minutes, and condense it down into a 120-minute feature film (or is he thinking a series of five of them)? What could possibly go wrong?

Seriously, one of the things that makes B5 a classic of the genre was the way it gradually unfolded an epic tale over the course of five years. Sure, there were a lot of B sub plots and C plot-of-the-week elements that didn't contribute directly to that overall storyline, but they provided the texture that made the A plot matter. For example, the viewers cared about the fate of the Centauri because they'd come to know (and seen the transformation of) Londo and Vir; without that, they're just a bunch of space vampires. To be honest, I'm not really a big fan of the soap-opera approach to storytelling that's become fashionable in hour-long TV dramas and monthly superhero comics... but B5 was a rare example of how it works. Without that format, without that scope, it would become just the Reader's Digest edit of The Lord of the Rings in Space.

Re:The Jackson-Hobbit Syndrome in reverse

[BellyJelly]

My thoughts exactly. There is no way you could compress the whole B5 story arc into several movies, never mind one, without cutting out everything that gave the series it's depth and texture. I get why people complain about series 5, but I think that was partly because JMS didn't think he would make it that far. After series 1 and 2 taught you about the B5 universe and it's characters, and built up the sense of foreboding that something bad was coming, I thought the way the momentum built during series 3 and 4 was excellent.

Re:The Jackson-Hobbit Syndrome in reverse

[Artifakt]

Space Vampires? They're Space Romans, not really even Space Romanians or Space Transylvanians...

Re:The Jackson-Hobbit Syndrome in reverse

[Anonymous Coward]

I suspect that this will be more along the lines of B5:ITB, which retold the story of the Earth-Minbari War in under two hours, doesn't really require too much backstory to watch, and was FUCKING AMAZING.

Re:The Jackson-Hobbit Syndrome in reverse

[tverbeek]

You need more screen time to recognize them as Space Romans. All the viewers would have time to pick up is that Londo has pointy teeth and talks like Bela Lugosi in that old movie.

In breaking news

[0123456]

J.J. Abrams is signed to direct. He's never seen a single episode of the TV show, but he's sure that, if he uses enough lens flare and explosions, no-one will ever notice.

Re:In breaking news

[glwtta]

Just... fuck you.

I'll pass

[Guppy06]

Yes, I enjoyed Babylon 5, but then stuff like Crusade, the Ranger movie, and that "Lost Tales" compilation happened. I'll probably put this new movie in my Netflix queue, but I won't be running out to buy a theater ticket or anything.

Re:I'll pass

[TheRaven64]

Crusade had a few bad episodes, but hinted at some interesting story arcs and was mostly fun. Legend of the Rangers was mostly good, but fell into the trap of 'here's a big bad enemy who's even bigger and more bad than the last big bad enemy you fought'. It would have needed a later episode to discover (quite soon!) that The Hand were overstating their abilities and history.

Re:I'll pass

[JackieBrown]

I enjoyed the Lost Tales - they didn't add anything to the B5 universe but they were enjoyable (at least the first one with the devil.)

Last Exit to Babylon

[fahrbot-bot]

Speaking of Babylon, I wouldn't mind seeing a movie of Roadmarks. In the mean time, perhaps I'll dig the book out of the closet and re-read it...

Hopefully he will do it right...

[trparky]

Hopefully he will do the job in more than one movie. Say, one movie leading up to the Shadow War, then another movie that is the Shadow War, and then a third movie showcasing the results after the Shadow War.

Re:An Unconditional Truth

[Hartree]

No. There is another.

"Ivanova is god."

B7

[Princeofcups]

Any word on the proposed Blake's 7 movie? That one show that deserves a resurrection.

Why?

[rossdee]

Sure B5 was the best SF TV series ever, but it doesn't nrrd a reboot
You couldn't fit the complex story arc into one movie anyway

Can't he write some other story set in the B5 universe, with new characters

If its just about money, maybe we could pay him not to do a reboot.

Re:Why?

[captjc]

It is the word "reboot" that gets me. It seems to thrown around willy-nilly these days, everything from dumping the entire source material sans a few loose names and concepts and creating something new (BSG 2003), to remaking the same tired origin story again (Amazing Spider-Man, Hulk), to even creating sequels that follow already established continuity (What is basically being done to the Terminator franchise). Star Wars Prequels and the coming sequel trilogy have been called and are reboots in many ways. Hell, Star Trek TNG is even considered a reboot.

This is way to early to either get up in arms or celebrate. Personally, I would rather have a Blu-ray remastering of the original series. If this is a proper reboot, I am sure to probably dislike it. I loved the original especially the characters. Peter Jurasic will always be Londo and Bruce Boxleitner will always be Sheridan, just as Leonard Nimoy will always be Spock and Dirk Benedict will always be Starbuck / The Face Man. However, I want to remain optimistic that maybe this will be a side story dissociated enough that it re-invigorate the franchise without tearing it down. Maybe, I might even get that Blu-Ray remastering.

Only time will tell, of course.

Forget B5

[SuiteSisterMary]

Forget B5, reboot Captain Power.

Re:Don't want it

[captjc]

I always hoped someone would make a movie of the battle at Wolf 359 - seems to me that there would be so much to work with within that heroic battle complex (I know, Wolf 359 is ST - But I digress)

Up until Nemesis killed Star Trek, I was always hoping for either A Romulan War or Eugenics Wars movie. Either could be done in a way that could be franchised, wouldn't piss off the fans and could be dissociated enough to get general movie audience.

A B5 reboot, sounds like a horrible idea. The original was one of the best science fiction shows on TV and (despite the early CGI) still holds up today. However, a movie that takes place in the same universe but in a side story would be great. The Telepath Wars or an Earth-Minbari War would be a great place to flesh out a new story and characters and be dissociated enough to do something new without alienating fans and newcomers, alike.

Re:It was complete...

[captjc]

I wouldn't call it complete. It had plenty of loose ends that could have been picked up. I would have loved to see the Telepath Wars, Garibaldi's revenge on Bester (yes, I know, books). Hell, Call To Arms and the canceled-before-it-aired Crusade left the question about what happens to Earth with the Drakh Plague. Hell, a series could be done on the Galen and the Techno-magi, alone.

While I would say the main plot was tied up very nicely, It was far from complete.

Re:It was complete...

[blackpaw]

YES. Finish Crusade.

this is good news

[flappinbooger]

JMS is a genius, B5 is a masterpiece, end of thread.

I thought the whole idea JMS had...

[hubang]

I thought the whole idea JMS had, was to not turn B5 into a franchise. I mean, isn't the whole point of a reboot to help milk, oops, I mean revive a dying franchise?

(I really mean milk it for all the cash they can get from the suckers. I was cynical to begin with, but I'm a lot more jaded after watching what J.J. Abrams did to Star Trek).

Does Sheldon Cooper know about this?

[WindSword]

I sense a strongly worded letter is heading to Studio JMS.

I thoroughly loved seasons 1-4

[neo-mkrey]

But Babylon 5 ended for me with season 5. Crusade was an interesting concept, just executed poorly. They should reboot that.

Yeah!

[tangle001]

To Mr. Bruce Boxleitner, I'm a big fan of yours ever since The Fall Guy and beyond. That you portrayed Tron is a happiness. I will also be happy if Babylon 5 the movie gets made soon, and if you wish and it happens that you are involved, I will be really pleased. RB in Simi

Re:Yeah!

[tangle001]

Oh wait, maybe not the Fall Guy, that was a long time ago, nevertheless, I'm a fan. Cheers.

Newspapers

[equivocal]

An opportunity for JMS to conceed that in a couple hundred years news will not be distributed by printing it out on paper. Hell, people barely get their news that way now.

What will Sheldon Cooper have to say?

[markdowling]

JMS should offer Jim Parsons a part for the lulz.