Slashdot Mirror


Study: Firmware Plagued By Poor Encryption and Backdoors

itwbennett writes: The first large-scale analysis of firmware has revealed poor security practices that could present opportunities for hackers probing the Internet of Things. Researchers with Eurecom, a technology-focused graduate school in France, developed a web crawler that plucked more than 30,000 firmware images from the websites of manufacturers including Siemens, Xerox, Bosch, Philips, D-Link, Samsung, LG and Belkin. In one instance, the researchers found a Linux kernel that was 10 years out of date bundled in a recently released firmware image. They also uncovered 41 digital certificates in firmware that were self-signed and contained a private RSA encryption key and 326 instances of terms that could indicate the presence of a backdoor.

88 of 141 comments (clear)

  1. Of course by charronia · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But really, who's going to hack your fridge?

    1. Re:Of course by Rinisari · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The manufacturer, so that it breaks, and we have a reason to go buy another expensive one or get it repaired.

      Collusion, I tell ya!

    2. Re:Of course by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Oh c'mon, at least skim TFA, I don't even expect anyone on /. to read it anymore, but at least click the link and look at the pretty pics.

      This ain't about fridges and petty crap. I guess I needn't explain why being able to hack and modify the firmware of a CCTV can be quite interesting, or do I?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Of course by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

      "so that it breaks"

      Manufacturers have been "hacking" your appliances to break prematurely long before the transistor was even invented

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    4. Re:Of course by riis138 · · Score: 1

      I am going to change the shape of your ice cubes! BOOM!

      --
      Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan
    5. Re:Of course by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Once you have IPV6, with no (supposed) need for firewalls, everything connected to the interweb, and widespread terrible security ... I predict your fridge will be hacked as quickly as an unpatched Windows XP box hooked up to the internet.

      People will try to have anything, and when the device manufacturers are this slack about security, it will get hacked simply because it's there.

      I've always thought the internet connected fridge was a stupid idea, for these exact reasons.

      With the laundry list of terrible security in the summary, you pretty much have to assume most things are fairly vulnerable.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:Of course by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This ain't about fridges and petty crap

      It's not specifically about fridges, but it points to the widespread terrible security practices, and how a single vendor who makes the underlying stuff can basically destroy security for all of it.

      As you add more and more stuff with the same vulnerabilities, the scope of the problem just gets magnified.

      So, your internet connected CCTV, your smart TV, your notional smart fridge, and from the sounds of it possibly even your router ... these are all subject to vulnerability through their weakest links. And it sounds like there's a lot of weak links.

      As long as these companies have a culture of lax security and other terrible practices like this, this problem isn't going to go away.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Of course by Lazere · · Score: 3, Informative

      Once you have IPV6, with no (supposed) need for firewalls.

      Why does somebody always have to trot this out? IPV6 does not mean no need for firewalls. It means no need for NAT. These are not the same thing. Please, please stop spewing this crap.

    8. Re:Of course by vux984 · · Score: 2

      Once you have IPV6, with no (supposed) need for firewalls

      Um... you'll still need a firewall. You just won't need a NAT gateway.

    9. Re:Of course by mlts · · Score: 2

      The problem is that bugtastic firmware is just a sign to the "good enough" race to the bottom that plagues a lot of industries.

      Secure firmware upgrades are not rocket science. If a device doesn't have to be connected to the Internet [1], a SD card [2], a routine for signing firmware, and having an atomic transaction based upgrade process (so the upgrade either 100% completes or gets rolled back... no in between states) will solve this. Of course, some way to revert or roll back would be useful. Perhaps a "version 1.0" firmware burned into a ROM as an absolute failsafe.

      For Internet connected devices, a mechanism similar to above coupled with SSL/TLS and a failsafe way of checking hosts for updates. Since this is a separate mechanism from Web browsing, the SSL/TLS certs can be signed with a non-standard CA (although I'd not self-sign them just in case the cert got compromised on the server.) Then, it can basically do a wget on the firmware image, then pass it on to another mechanism for checking the signature and flashing the new firmware.

      [1]: If one questions that if -has- to be connected to the Internet or not; it doesn't need it.

      [2]: SD card specifically. Not a USB port, as USB devices can present themselves as many other items than just a drive. SD cards are hard to use as a base for intrusion. Well, harder than USB, IEE1394, or other general use protocols that allow a device full DMA access.

    10. Re:Of course by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      You can't blame the summary.

      Anyone who's been here for more than a couple of days knows that the summaries are often extremely misleading.

    11. Re:Of course by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Why does somebody always have to trot this out?

      Because every time IPV6 comes up, people say "you won't need a firewall", which I've always assumed to be crap, and which is why I put "supposedly".

      Because my reaction is always "no way I'm running without a firewall".

      I still think the "no NAT" thing is stupid. I don't want devices with a globally unique ID, because the marketing assholes any everybody else don't need to know "this is Bob's fridge".

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    12. Re:Of course by Lazere · · Score: 1

      Probably, you won't even see NAT go away as ISPs are still going to want to charge for each IP they give. I have a feeling, at least on the residential side, that things will stay exactly as they are, just with an IPv6 address instead of IPv4.

    13. Re:Of course by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ha...
      China embedding chips in electric kettles and using the other appliances in the home to pry into home networks on the off chance that you're someone worth hacking.

      Beyond that, hacking someone's fridge is a great way to be irksome to someone you don't like -- I've come home to a failed fridge after a week-long trip and it is definitely not pretty.

    14. Re:Of course by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would you ever use IPv6 on an internal network?

    15. Re:Of course by flyneye · · Score: 1

      Well...now, lessee...an out of date linux kernel...I'll go out there on a limb and guess it was an OpenMOSIX kernel. That seems about the right timeframe. A cluster computing platform, brilliantly simple. Just think of all those appliances donating spare cycles and ram to a money making scheme by the vendor, selling super computing time on your appliances and bandwidth.

      O.K. that's my vote for what this is rally all about.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    16. Re:Of course by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Right, because bugs in the cannot-be-replaced version 1.0 firmware will never come back to haunt you. (read: force it to fallback to 1.0, and bob's your uncle.)

    17. Re:Of course by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Considering the smallest recommended handout is a /64 which includes as many addresses as there are in IPv4 total there should never be a problem with the number of addressable IPs you receive. If ISPs try to hand out a /127 address to customers they'll lose many of the auto-routing functions of IPv6 that keep the router tables small and raise their own costs. My bet is they won't give you a static IP without a charge, but you will be given that /64 address and you won't be buying packages of IP addresses.

    18. Re:Of course by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      ...But they'll still become the sole basis of at least half of the comment threads.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    19. Re:Of course by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      Because every time IPV6 comes up, people say "you won't need a firewall",

      IPv6 capable consumer routers have SPI (Same as NAT - no incoming connections) except without resorting to packet mangling or dangerous ALGs.

      I don't want devices with a globally unique ID, because the marketing assholes any everybody else don't need to know "this is Bob's fridge".

      If not turned on by default, enable IPv6 privacy extensions on the fridge console next to the designer ice cube shaper display.

      Vendors have thus far proven themselves incapable of providing "connected" products not intentionally designed to maximally violate your privacy or otherwise place you at mercy of vendor operated "cloud service".

      The second Bob's fridge connects to the Internet expect it to immediately call home with a complete inventory, share it with the vendors "partners" and serve ads for good measure. This is the reality of "IoT" the reality the marketeers are clamoring for anyway.

      You might think IPv6 is scary but at least it restores the network of peers allowing for credible deployment and management scenarios whereby end users have any chance at all of avoiding being treated as string puppets.

    20. Re:Of course by crioca · · Score: 1
      Was literally having a serious work discussion about hacking fridges yesterday. There are a few ways internet enabled fridges could be hacked for profit or for "the lulz"

      1. The fridge could be used for pivoting> into your network

      2. If the fridge is able to automatically purchase food for you, the payment system could be abused

      3. If the fridge is able to automatically purchase food for you, the ordering system could be abused.

      4. It could be used to disable the cooling system

      5. It could be used as part of a botnet

      But the main issue is the potential for brand damage; All it takes is for one overblown headline like "Hackers can use X Manufacturer fridges to Y your Z" to go viral and your company is out millions of dollars in sales.

    21. Re:Of course by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      Because if you didn't, when (he he....maybe "if") the entire Internet finally switches to IPv6, you'd have to run 4to6 hacks on your router, and probably have large swathes of the Internet unreachable, because your IPv4 internal network doesn't have the capability to properly address the IPv6 address space.
      Much easier to just use IPv6 internally to begin with.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
    22. Re:Of course by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm a firmware engineer, and although I tend to work a bit below the level being talked about here I can understand why security often plays second fiddle. When you are producing mass market products you are going to get significant support issues, and there is pressure to minimize them as much as possible by making stuff "just work". Unfortunately that is the enemy of security too.

      Look at it this way. Wifi needs a password, but apparently actually knowing the password and figuring out how to type it in is too much to ask of the user. Thus WPS was invented so now all you have to do is push a button, even if it does introduce some fairly severe security flaws.

      It isn't impossible of course. Panasonic use FreeBSD for their smart TVs and they remain fairly secure. The thing is Panasonic doesn't sell super cheap TVs, or in other words you pay a bit more for a well engineered product. Many people just want to pay as little as possible, but also want cutting edge technology. I say let them have it - eventually they will get the message that cheap stuff is usually crap.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:Of course by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Secure firmware upgrades are not rocket science.

      True, but they do cost money. You need a processor capable of handling the crypto, which rules out a lot of low cost parts. You need extra memory to store the original factory firmware for factory resets and extra memory for storing the new firmware in case the upgrade fails (power cut etc.)

      Also, if you are going to require SD card you had better ship a free one along with an SD card reader with your product, or expect a lot of customer support calls. USB is starting to become acceptable, but only just.

      The problem is always the same: the customer doesn't want to pay for security and doesn't want to read the manual. They don't know their wifi password. They just want to plug in and it magically works. To improve security we need to work on consumers, not the manufacturers.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    24. Re: Of course by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they really are more short sighted, they only want *this* sale, which is the reason they cut the quality of things.

      Of course, people feed this tendency by buying crappy products. Which sadly, makes the good quality products even more expensive because they can't benefit from the same economies of scale.

      Keyboards, for example. When PCs cost $2000 (and $2000 meant something), $40 on a keyboard was barely noticeable.

      Now the standard keyboard cost $5 and it shows. Issuing these keyboards to people expected to use a computer professionally is in my opinion, almost criminal, as they contribute to RSI and finger joint arthritis. A decent keyboard now costs even less than it did back then (in adjusted dollars) but they still ship the crap ones because they have to meet that price point.

    25. Re:Of course by Dr_Barnowl · · Score: 1

      > Who's going to hack your fridge?

      If your fridge is tied into your grocery shopping (which would seem to be a major reason to have a smart fridge... really, a dumb fridge is just fine at turning the compressor on and off), then you might be able to hack it and buy neat stuff and get it delivered to a drop location (even the owners own driveway ... "Yeah, I'll be out, drop it behind the paper recycling bin...").

    26. Re:Of course by nightsky30 · · Score: 1

      Groceries can be very expensive, especially for families. All it takes is a simple temperature change hack to ruin an entire fridge full of food, and cost you another trip to the store (if your fridge is even fixable/usable at that point).

    27. Re:Of course by gtall · · Score: 2

      Those household appliances are small potatoes compared to autos. The car companies outfit our cars with computers but give us no decent way to connect up our PCs or handhelds and have the vehicles tell us what ails them. Why? The conditions that generate sensor signals can be complex and the car companies are essentially saying "we do not understand our vehicles that well"...and it 'tis but a short step from that to forcing you into a dealership or auto repair shop just to "read and reset the computer".

      Okay, but they then go further and outfit our vehicles with lots of small processors and connect them together in insecure ways. It will become the next hackers paradise especially when cars become endpoints on the interwebs, or worse, mobile routers.

    28. Re:Of course by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      I didn't say "Why wouldn't you have a IPv6 capable network" I asked "Why would you use IPv6?" All my equipment/OS's can handle IPv6 just fine, but there's no reason to ever use it inside a local network. I can hit IPv6 outside my network just fine... http://test-ipv6.com/

      Granted, that's entirely up to your ISP. But out-of-the-box equipment that's IPv6 capable equipment should support IPv6 as long as your ISP does as well.

    29. Re:Of course by SirGeek · · Score: 1

      Someone who wants you to die ? How hard would it be to increase the temp to "just" above the safe point (so bacteria/etc. grows) ?

      Ingest the food, Get botulism or something else and die.

    30. Re:Of course by mlts · · Score: 1

      The advantage of SD cards is that in a pinch, the manufacturer can always ship a SD card to the customer (especially if the item is a more expensive appliance like a CNC mill.) As for a SD card reader, those are not too difficult to find (most modern laptops except MacBook Air models tend to have them built in.)

      I do agree that a USB flash drive would be better, but a SD card reader is fairly static. One knows that it will have the same device ID (in Linux) or drive letter (in Windows) no matter what, while one can attach a hub and all sorts of devices to a USB port, trying to exploit any possible faults in the USB controller or the OS wondering why it is seeing another keyboard when it is expecting a drive.

      SD cards are not perfect, but for a relatively high-value device, they are decent. If a device manufacturer is worried about physical attack, they could always ship SD cards using the built in signing/encryption (CPRM) and secure area to ensure that the ROM on the card hasn't been tampered with.

      Of course, for something uber cheap where the only thing that matters is price, one can just have the device be a USB destination, and just allow the user to copy the updated firmware via PTP or MTP to a space on the device, then power cycle. However, this assumes the device is small and portable.

      With a SD card and signed firmware, it definitely isn't 100%, but it will keep most attacks at bay. If more security is needed, the manufacturer can ship update SD cards out using the copy-protected region so the data on the card can't be tampered with, and it would provide another security layer against even physical tampering.

    31. Re:Of course by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      But really, who's going to hack your fridge?

      Someone who puts a network cable into it.

      No, I'm not going to give the fridge a password into my wifi. Why should I? And I'm certainly not going to pay for a cellphone service for it.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    32. Re:Of course by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 1

      I didn't say "Why wouldn't you have a IPv6 capable network" I asked "Why would you use IPv6?"

      Well, it's a good thing that I actually answered the second question, rather than the first, isn't it?

      All my equipment/OS's can handle IPv6 just fine, but there's no reason to ever use it inside a local network. I can hit IPv6 outside my network just fine... http://test-ipv6.com/

      Granted, that's entirely up to your ISP. But out-of-the-box equipment that's IPv6 capable equipment should support IPv6 as long as your ISP does as well.

      If you only run IP4 internally, then you can only address, at best, a subset of IPv6 addresses on the public Internet.

      --
      "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  2. And forget patches by Rigel47 · · Score: 1

    Your typical "internet of things" plastic garbage will have firmware updates released by the manufacturer for three to four years after which you're on your own. Which, to the point of the article, is not to say you have a secure device at the outset.

    You'd think by now some consortium would self-assemble to devise best practices and certifications. In all likelihood it will have to be non-industry parties that do so as the last thing Samsung, et al, want is another hassle to eat into their razor-thin margins.

    1. Re:And forget patches by 0x15e · · Score: 1

      I would say three to four years if you're lucky. I wouldn't expect most plastic garbage to have updates for more than a year after release, assuming there are any updates at all.

  3. Self signed-certificate?? by ruir · · Score: 1

    Is it bad or good? At least the NSA cant sniff the traffic so easily.

    1. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 1

      >> "Self-signed cert = At least the NSA cant sniff the traffic so easily"

      I hope you're joking, but in case you're not, reread the part about the published "private RSA encryption key." That means that ANYONE who watches an SSL/TLS session get established with that key could decode the session's traffic. And more bad things...

    2. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by ChadL · · Score: 1

      That depends on the use case. Take for example a printer which is using TLS to encrypt documents sent to it and scans from it to the computer. In the case of a single self-signed CA its just snake oil as far as security as anyone could take the self-signed certificate from the FW image and MiTM the connection.
      If, instead, the printer created a random self-signed certificate on first boot and the printer driver asks the user on a certificate change 'printer xyz appears to have changed its fingerprint, did you perform a factory reset?' (and on new printer add just save the certificate from the new printer on first use).
      The above change would change the snake oil to some meaningful level of security (not 100%, but most likely the first setup isn't going to be MiTM'ed). Additionally if TLS isn't using forward-secrecy then a certificate shared across all devices allows anyone to decrypt logged traffic to/from any of these devices by extracting the key from the manufacturer provided fw image rather then having to hack it out of the physical device itself.

    3. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      The issue is that it's embedded in the firmware, which means it's the same damned certificate on every device. Hack it once, and every one of them is now hacked. (remember the issue with debian and sshd keys? there were only a handful of keys because they were generated with a guessable random number (seconds from boot) on the first boot.)

    4. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Depends on what "self signed" means. Companies can definitely have our own root key and devices have certs that chain back to that, but the devices will not sign themselves. That is no less secure than relying on some third party root cert.

    5. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by Torp · · Score: 1

      But the client's browser is not likely to have the company's certificate as trusted, so they still have to accept an unknown certificate. Just not the device's, but the manufacturer's.
      Do you think average joe would actually verify his printer's certificate for authenticity? :)
      This is only likely to happen in a large corporate network.

      --
      I apologize for the lack of a signature.
    6. Re:Self signed-certificate?? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Ah, I wasn't talking about browsers being involved. Certs are used for much more than browsing. A peer to peer network would have shared root certificates, or devices from the same manufacturer, or can validate that the firmware upgrade is legitimate and provided by the manufacturer.

  4. The beginning of the "internet of things" by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It will be like the internet of humans was. Everyone will be in a gold fever. Everyone will want to join the train and everyone just HAS to get with the latest fad and have a sock drawer that has some kind of internet connection. Every petty, crappy, useless gadget will need to have some sort of internet access.

    And of course the manufacturers will deliver it. Everything and their dog collar will be online.

    Then the first people, I'd predict some geeks with a rather odd sense of humor, will start to piss people off by "talking" to their fridge and telling it to put some milk bones and condoms on the next shopping list, just to make your friends wonder about your ... private life should they get their hand on it.

    And given time, someone will come up with a way to abuse the whole shit not just for fun but also for profit. And only THEN we'll stand there and ask why oh why security has not been a core topic right from the start because that should have been obvious... and it probably was.

    It was just way cheaper to ignore it. And as long as people buy it (who will react just like the very first person in this thread, i.e. "who's going to hack your fridge?"), why bother with security? Security costs money and it's no selling point. So... to the crapper with it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:The beginning of the "internet of things" by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Need? What kind of outlandish concept, how does "need" come into the equation when we want to make people buy crap?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  5. really? by NicolaZandonà · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The point is, who really need a connected fridge?

    1. Re:really? by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      In fact, who really needs a fridge at all? We got along just fine without them for thousands of years.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    2. Re:really? by The+Technomancer · · Score: 1

      Need? Nobody. Being able to auto-generate a shopping list based on the contents of your fridge and cupboards, or order said list for delivery from Safeway/Amazon Fresh/etc.? Timesaver. Hacking someone's smart fridge to order random embarrassing things as a prank? Priceless.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

      -- Arthur C. Clarke

    3. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Auto-generate a shopping list based on the contents of fridge and cupboards? I don't know about anyone else, but from week to week, season to season, the contents of my fridge vary wildly based on what's locally in season and the random recipes I choose for the week. My eating patterns aren't exactly predictable unless you hack my random recipe selector.

    4. Re:really? by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      About a s priceless as smashing the window of their car. Ha Ha. Vandalism isn't new just because it is "on a computer".

    5. Re:really? by bayankaran · · Score: 1

      Look at this way...a connected fridge is utterly pointless, but I can see how it will create new jobs.
      There will be people employed to create software and hardware interfaces, test the interfaces, and finally when it breaks down or exploited, to fix them.
      At least its going to be some extra buttons or a panel on a fridge...there is not going to be a significant hit to the environment. So lets not use the argument "what is the need".

      --
      Tat Tvam Asi
  6. "Internet of Things" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    worst new term since 'the cloud' and 'hashtag'.

    1. Re:"Internet of Things" by Russ1642 · · Score: 1

      It's hella lame.

    2. Re:"Internet of Things" by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, I'm sort of being put into this area now. But this term covers so much stuff, a lot of which has existed before the term existed. The stuff that's eye rolling are bluetooth enabled devices that talk to phones, that's not really the internet of things. But something like a stoplight could be internet of things, if it reports back when a bulb has burned out; it's a thing, it is on some private network, and it is something not traditionally networked in the past. Similarly, smart meters, traffic monitors, and so forth.

  7. Going to need MUCH better firewalls by BaronM · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can't ever see secure firmware becoming the norm given the economics of consumer goods, so I think we're going to need much better firewalls than what we see in SOHO routers currently.

    Port/address level control is spectacularly insufficient when everything runs on port 80, and nobody is going to spend time mapping out specific source/destination pairs for everything (The washer can talk to the dryer. The washer can talk to my smartphone. The dryer can talk to my smartphone...)

    I'd like to see something like a home-PKCS standard where:
    1. Any IOT device requires a client certificate supplied by the router
    2. The router drops any traffic not signed by a recognized client certificate
    3. The router's signing key must be kept on a seperate USB drive, and the WAN port is locked out if the USB drive is inserted.

    To set up a new device on your home network you would:

    1. Insert USB key into the router (WAN port shuts down)
    2. Generate a new client certificate for the new device (push button "a")
    3. Install the certificate on the new device (push button "b" on router and also on device within 60 seconds, enter PIN, something automated like that)
    4. Remove USB key from router (WAN port comes back up)

    The router will now pass signed traffic to/from your new device. Traffic not signed? No talking to IOT devices for you.

    Yeah, key management sucks, but I bet it could be fairly easily automated for home use. It would take more thought and detail than I've outlined above, but should be doable. Unfortunately, that would require that everyone agree to follow the same standard for home-PKCS, and I can't see that happening either.

    Plus cheap devices would have the crypto implemented badly, plus you wouldn't be able to turn on the microwave from your office, so on and so forth.

    Never mind, I give up.

    1. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Better idea: Give up on this stupid everything-as-to-be-on-the-Internet bullshit. I'll laugh when people buy all these expensive appliances only for malicious people to find ways to fuck with them.

    2. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by BaronM · · Score: 2

      Well, yes, that actually IS a better idea.

      OTOH, if an IP-connected hot-water heater is the only kind on the market next time I need a new one, I'd prefer to have the 'securing it' worked out in advance, because I'm sure not going to do without.

    3. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by Lazere · · Score: 1

      Most important things, like water heaters (and cars), need to be robust enough to function without internet, else they'd have lawsuits on their hands. You could, I don't know, not connect it to the internet.

    4. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Well, you could, you know, NOT CONNECT the IP enabled water heater to the Internet.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      Well, you could, you know, NOT CONNECT the IP enabled water heater to the Internet.

      Except, in the future, the only way to set water termperature will be through a web interface, and you'll need it connected to download firmware updates so it doesn't explode due to a random memory corruption bug causing it to leave the gas on all day.

    6. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Well, you could, you know, NOT CONNECT the IP enabled water heater to the Internet.

      What if that's not a choice, either?

      With SuperWiFi 4.0 "IoT edition" (TM), all of your appliances create a mesh network and find a path to the internet !!!

      or

      "I'm sorry sir, your water heater won't operate until it's able to register with the activation server. Please remove the foil from its antenna."

      Do these scenarios really seem too far fetched or unlikely?

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    7. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by Belial6 · · Score: 1

      Honestly, the answer is that the devices should just not be directly accessable at all from the internet. There should be a server that is secured, and the devices should be accessed by the server.

      Paring could be done via NFC. A small 'Key' passed over the 'pairing' pad of the server and any devices could sync them all to the same cert. If for some reason it is believed the cert is compromised a new $1 'Key' can reset every device and the server to a new cert.

      Simpler than the wifi and bluetooth models, and for the most part, there is only one device that has to have complex iron clad security.

    8. Re:Going to need MUCH better firewalls by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Fortunately, a water heater is simple enough that you can rip out the "smart" electronics and replace them with the sort of thermostat-and-relay circuit that almost everything uses right now.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
  8. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by Lazere · · Score: 1

    Anything is economical if people are willing to buy it for more than it costs to make. There are already internet connected fridges and dog collars and cars, what they make internet connected next is only a matter of what people are willing to buy? Internet connected toilet paper? I bet you can get some health nuts on the bandwagon. Idiotic seeming gadgets will be internet connected, and there's nothing you can do about it. The biggest question is, are we going to pay attention to security now, or wait until it's too late? Also, he said "internet of things" because that's the idiotic term the industry/media has chosen for this particular fad. He could use something different, but everyone already knows what it means, so, why bother? That's how language works. Deal with it.

  9. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Seems like I spent too much time with the marketing goons lately... I hope I'll recover soon. :)

    But seriously, you know the buzzword and I doubt that we'll get rid of it anytime soon. It's like the cloud, just worse, because, as you point out, it makes no sense really.

    What matters now, though, is that we know what we're talking about. Maybe "the internet of everyday items" simply didn't have as much zing.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  10. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by redeIm · · Score: 1

    That's how language works. Deal with it.

    Dealing with such toxic bullshit only ensures it will spread around more, even if only slightly. I'd rather point out why it's garbage.

  11. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by Lazere · · Score: 1

    It's not toxic. It's stupid. In a generation, if it's still around, it'll sound less stupid. If it's still around after that, it'll just be a normal part of the language.

  12. Crowdsource it by joh · · Score: 1

    We really need a program that offers bounties for finding such vulnerabilities and backdoors. Put a tax up for companies selling networked devices, pay bounties from that when a third party finds something and pay the money back to the respective companies after a year or two when nobody finds any vulnerabilities in their products. This would make actually putting some effort into secure products commercially viable while giving good hackers a way to earn their living in a good way. Win-win.

    Right now we're rewarding companies that sell shoddy products while driving clever and well-educated people into the criminal underground. This actually is the worst setup one could think of. Make a sane, well-regulated market out of that and things will improve quickly while at the same time creating careers for people who deserve it.

  13. here's the reason, expert opinion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This is commonly because the guy who originally set up the image, knew how the code worked, and designed the thing was laid off years ago. The people hired on to maintain it afterwards never figured out how it worked or how it was put together, their goal was just to keep things running. I was recently laid off at a job where I had bothered to take the time to learn how the original image for a device was created and recreate it from scratch so that we wouldn't be left behind and could upgrade. The guys remaining there don't know, care, and cannot recreate the firmware image. If managers would attempt to keep their well-learned staff, give them incentives to stay, not lay them off randomly for short-term gains, and promote documentation then this wouldn't happen.

  14. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by redeIm · · Score: 1

    It's toxic garbage. I reject numerous ridiculous terms, regardless of how long they've been around.

  15. What's wrong with a 14 year old kernel? by bobbied · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If it works on the hardware in question, what's wrong with that? Sometimes being newer isn't better, it's just newer.

    I don't see this as a huge problem for embedded systems.... Unless it's something like a firewall or a router that lives on the internet, then it *might* be worth looking at. If it's something like a media player or printer on your private network, who cares? (unless you are member of the tin foil hat society).

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  16. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by grcumb · · Score: 2

    That's how language works. Deal with it.

    Dealing with such toxic bullshit only ensures it will spread around more, even if only slightly. I'd rather point out why it's garbage.

    Yes, but the entire article is low-brow drivel. I have no idea why this was the source they chose to link to (though it might go a long way toward explaining the tone and content of Slashdot's discussions these days...). I mean, check out this para:

    The murky world of firmware sometimes makes it hard to figure out which products might be affected. Manufacturers often rely on tools and development kits that are widely used across industries, so the flawed firmware can end up in product sold under lots of different brands.

    It's hard to know whether this 'writer' even teh English. But worse, the content is almost anti-information. What the fuck is a 'murky world'? People use generic toolkits? Sold to more than one company?! Who is this Adam Smith and where do I get his pamphlets?!?

    Worse, the author[*] is implying that this is somehow an inherent flaw that might prove to be a fundamental difficulty. In truth, it's an aspect of software development that has been there since the very first computers existed. And what's more, we know how to fucking deal with it. Instead of massaging the conscience of halfwit managers, maybe he could have offered a bit of illumination concerning the decades of precedent for dealing with software quality, and explaining how these principles can (or cannot) be applied to firmware.

    The thing that drives me toward despair is that the article - the whole publication - is clearly aimed at corporate decision-makers.

    ---------------
    [*] With apologies to all real authors everywhere.

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  17. i was going to argue engineers vs. programmers by NemoinSpace · · Score: 1

    But in this case it seems they are in perfect agreement when it comes to deciding whether any money or effort should be put into upgrading your kernel on your vcr with the blinking 12:00

  18. Re:Quit with the idiotic "internet of things" meme by Belial6 · · Score: 2

    Exactly. Consider how stupid "Movie" sounds. It started out a lot dumber sounding than "Internet of Things".

  19. Yes, much of this is unrealistic by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

    Getting a signed certificate for an embedded device may cost more than manufacturing the device... per year.

    It's actually worse than that, because you don't even have a fixed target to price up. You have to consider how long a certificate needs to be valid for, the longer the more expensive but if it's not enough for the working lifetime of the device people are going to get upset. There's also the risk that a link in the certification chain could disappear, which is presumably more likely the longer the certificate lasts. For serious equipment running on corporate networks you might also have to consider letting them install their own certs backed by their own in-house CA, which introduces overheads of its own for your technical implementation. And none of this matters for devices that aren't going to be available from a machine with Internet access, because then there's no way to verify certs signed by the major public CAs anyway.

    But the AC's basic point is sound. There are genuine concerns being raised here, but there's also a degree of FUD. If you see "10 year old Linux kernel" and assume "security flaw", you're the guy embedded software developers hate. That's not because they don't like criticism, it's because what really happens is they get a report back from some suit in the sales team saying a customer ran a "vulnerability scanner" and it flagged something based on a simple version check or other heuristic and that "vulnerability" must be fixed before you can get the sale. When they point out that patches have been applied for all known vulnerabilities that are relevant to their system and ask the sales guy what actual vulnerability the customer is concerned about, all they get back is crickets.

    Then you get someone from management being told by the sales guy who just lost his commission that the engineering team is incompetent, and wanting to know how much it would cost to upgrade the entire system to the latest Linux kernel. Manage gets told by engineering leadership about the cost, the time required to do the work, the time required for a complete regression test, and the risk of some regressions slipping through anyway because you're giving up tried and tested code and maybe being forced to change fundamental things like what kind of filesystem you're using on your internal flash storage. Somewhere around the point where the half dozen guys who normally work on the firmware for that product now need six more guys whose only job is to watch for every relevant update to any software component in the system, integrate it, regression test the results, issue the firmware update, and brief sales and marketing because reading a changelog is too difficult, the manager usually loses interest. It's a huge amount of wasted time and effort all around, for something that in many cases was never actually a real problem in the first place.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    1. Re:Yes, much of this is unrealistic by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      "but we totally found backdoors on it. the fridge firmware totally has the 'door' string xxx times"

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  20. Doesn't really solve the problem by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

    Better idea: Give up on this stupid everything-as-to-be-on-the-Internet bullshit.

    That's a good idea, but it doesn't solve the problem for devices that actually do have good reasons to be connected: streaming media players, IP-based phones/faxes, consoles with multiplayer games, and so on. Many of these devices are connected to household networks these days, both to access the Internet and to communicate for legitimate reasons with other devices also on that home network. The devices themselves or other devices on the home network may store sensitive data. They may also have sensors, and while cameras and microphones are the most obvious risks, less obvious things like accelerometers in mobile devices and GPS can also create huge security/privacy holes.

    Sooner or later, we're going to have to confront the implications of connecting all of this stuff together, and we're going to need a more sophisticated strategy than "just don't do it", because a lot of the time doing it is very useful but also dangerous without proper limitations.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  21. Idiots and their "BSP"s by nyet · · Score: 2

    The reason embedded device kernels never get updated is because the source code for them is on some SOC vendor's way out there fork of some ancient kernel that nobody with a clue actively develops for anymore.

    And the vendor (say, TI) had hired a bunch of clueless interns to write the "BSP"s (old acronym from the binary blob obsessed asshats at vxworks et al) for their SOCs and the cluster of shoddily designed peripherals crowbarred into the SOC.

    And those interns wrote code so toxic and broken that no sane kernel developer would ever have accept any of their garbage into any mainline kernel tree.

    So there are all these embedded devices out there with kernels from the 90s, and it would take time (and expertise) that none of the vendors have (including the SOC suppliers, like TI) to merge the changes into something even remotely contemporary.

    All of this because the requirements for these embedded projects (dictated by clueless PHBs) is only "linux support" not "mainline kernel support", so SOC vendors (like TI) just don't have the incentive to develop SOC peripheral driver code suitable for mainline inclusion.

    1. Re:Idiots and their "BSP"s by vovin · · Score: 1

      And you can't just migrate the patches to latest kernel ... because some the key peripheral parts (video controllers and audio/video encode / decode engines) are binary blobs. Grrrr like TI, NVidia, Qualcomm, Exynos(Samsung), RockChip, AllWinner, MTK, and Freescale. If you *can* forgo those parts then you can migrate to a recent kernel.
      This is in part because a modern SOC is just a collection of assembled IP and the upstream video [OpenGL ES] and h264 encoder/decoder hardware vendors in particular won't allow the programming information to flow downstream w/o NDA.

    2. Re:Idiots and their "BSP"s by nyet · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. The situation is not sustainable.

      Even worse, because every SOC is a haphazard pile of random and arbitrarily buggy peripherals, there is no deterministic way (at run time) to enumerate all of the peripherals, and thus which various driver variants (and even worse, binary blobs) are required to make them work.

      So by definition, none of this can EVER go into the mainline. Every kernel fork is its own disconnected universe, dedicated to a single snapshot of a single SOC and its particular collection of peripherals.

      But if you try to explain this to a PHB (or, say TI), you'll get nothing but blank stares. There is nobody home.

  22. Not the same certificate on every device by jsrjsr · · Score: 1

    Not necessarily. The device could easily be loaded with a unique certificate in manufacturing. A quick search shows that Atmel makes parts that would help enable this. I'm sure there are others. I expect the cost of this to continue dropping.

    1. Re:Not the same certificate on every device by Cramer · · Score: 1

      RTFA. They downloaded the installable firmware images for many devices and found a self-signed certificate in some of them. That is not a per-device-unique anything. Every device loads the same blob, and has the same certificate. They aren't even competent enough to get the device to generate it's own certificate. (which could have it's own issues, but at least it has a chance of being different from any other device.)

  23. Who moved m -- Make your own damn cheese by tepples · · Score: 1

    And if you don't like it, stop eating the fucking cheese, mouse.

    It'll still be possible to get off your duff and make your own damn cheese, won't it?

  24. You're talking about our back doors? by wbhauck · · Score: 2

    Mr. Potato Head. Mr. Potato Head! Back doors are not secrets!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  25. Why is it called "firmware"? by marciot · · Score: 1

    When you can rewrite it with software? Not all progress is good. I want to see black hat types remotely reprogram ROM chips and UV-eraseable EPROM chips from the 1980s.

  26. Not safe by dutchwhizzman · · Score: 2

    SD Cards can be several devices, including wifi cards, so those are just as (un)safe as USB devices if the device they are connected to would be susceptible to hot plugged hardware and have the drivers available for those.

    SSL/TLS is plagued with bugs due to the backward compatibility issue. Heartbleed anyone?

    Self Signed shouldn't be a problem, providing the device has the pubkey for the CA that was used to self sign present.

    Doing a wget on an image requires at least a minimal install like busybox on top of a linux kernel. This is currently one of the most used ways to upgrade firmwares and often there are older version of busybox, the kernel and many other applications on the device. Those are one of the big sources of devices being hacked.

    As you see, it's not as simple as it seems. Apart from standard apps being outdated and not validating certificates, a lot of the custom parts of firmware aren't written with any security in mind. Things like old fashioned buffer overflows, SQL/XML injections, XSS and whatnot in user interfaces are much more common than in directly web facing websites these days. With IPv6 around the corner and the end of NAT in sight, plenty of these devices will be connected directly to the internet and we will see a large increase in "things" getting hacked once we get to that point.

    --
    I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
  27. Wall of Shame by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 1

    The only thing that works for this finance-driven development is a public Wall of Shame. If consumers know which firms produce this crap, they at least have a choice of not buying it. The researchers are probably scared of the legal actions of the producers, but not disclosing crimes like back doors is a crime in itself.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
  28. mod parent up by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

    Someone please mod parent up, insightful

    --
    Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
  29. Answer: lemon laws by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

    Until lemon laws for computer-related products become pervasive, this shit will continue. Manufacturers are able to skirt liability and hide behind nebulous EULA's.

    --
    'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman