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Publishers Gave Away 123 Million Books During World War Two

An anonymous reader writes Information wants to be free? During the Second World War, it actually was. Publishers took advantage of new printing technologies to sell crates of cheap, paperback books to the military for just six cents a copy, at a time when almost all the other books they printed cost more than two dollars. The army and the navy shipped them to soldiers and sailors around the world, giving away nearly 123 million books for free. Many publishers feared the program would destroy their industry, by flooding the market with free books and destroying the willingness of consumers to pay for content. Instead, it fueled a postwar publishing boom, as millions of GIs got hooked on good books, and proved willing to pay for more. It's a freemium model, more than 70 years ago.

121 comments

  1. Free? by Osgeld · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think servicemen in WWII were paying a large enough price

    1. Re:Free? by supernova87a · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does patriotism today only count if you're in the military?

      The way we glorify military service over all types of contribution / sacrifice for the national interest is pretty amazing these days. It's like the movies have brainwashed us into believing that soldiers are the only national heroes around.

    2. Re:Free? by Nimey · · Score: 1

      The verbal fellation of our military was even higher a few years ago; hero this and hero that, even military hardware got the hero treatment: one of the retired Essex-class aircraft carriers was referred to as a "hero ship" at least once.

      I like to think we're getting over the overreaction against how returning Vietnam vets were treated, but it'll probably take several more years.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    3. Re:Free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I think servicemen in WWII were paying a large enough price

      How very sentimental of you.

      However it's a shame you've dragged the first post into trite offtopic self-indulgence, because the relevant lesson was that exposing a large proportion of the population to free information revitalized the publishing industry.

      I suppose that's the lesson the DRM mongers infesting Slashdot don't want people discussing. You've served them well.

    4. Re:Free? by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      trust me I am the first one to call out all the heart string teary eyed hero bullshit, there's quite a bit of difference tween WWII and the penis contests that proceeded it

    5. Re:Free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no shit sherlock, the badly worded half a paragraph summary pretty much summed that up, what else is there to say cept yup, you found a correlation and somehow attached it to a buzzword that doesn't mean the same fucking thing?

      article is pointless click bait and is somewhat insulting, so please go jump off a cliff

    6. Re:Free? by davester666 · · Score: 1

      you are forgetting "first responders", cops, medics in ambulances, firefighters. The unholy trinity.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    7. Re:Free? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And compare it to how we vilify the civil service as evil, corrupt and incompetent nepotists who engage in nothing but beurocratic paralysis.

      Especially here on Slashdot where the government can do nothing right EXCEPT if they're in the military or NASA and maybe not even then.

    8. Re:Free? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      one of the retired Essex-class aircraft carriers was referred to as a "hero ship" at least once.

      That would probably have been Lexington (not CV-3, the Essex with the same name), which was built in 14 months. An impressive feat at the best of times, and that wasn't the best of times....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    9. Re:Free? by Nimey · · Score: 1

      If we're going to be pedantic, Lex was CV-2; CV-3 was Saratoga. :P

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
  2. Discounted not free by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 5, Interesting

    6 cents a book at current prices seems more like Amazon's discounted books business model. So it's not exactly free. Hell even brick and mortar stores conduct cut-price "sales". And at war time, reading books would have been a luxury both at home and at the battlefield. So selling them at the cost of production or at lost is more likely investing for the future loyalty of customers.

    1. Re:Discounted not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't think the soldiers directly paid for them; instead the books were purchased by the army and given out to the soldiers free.

    2. Re:Discounted not free by stoborrobots · · Score: 1

      Yep, I see it more like the razor/blade "loss-leader" model, or the "first one's free to get you hooked" free-samples model, rather than the "freemium" model...

    3. Re:Discounted not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Right you are. The headline "Publishers Gave Away 123 Million Books During World War Two" is wrong.

    4. Re:Discounted not free by fermion · · Score: 2
      It is pretty much free. I have some books that are post WWII, and it seems the paperbacks cost 30-50 cents. 70% discounts are even beyond the bargain bin.

      As I recall on aspect of the cheap printing was the pulp book. Publisher would print and ship paper backs to stores en masse knowing that most would not sell. Those that did not would simply be returned, maybe with the cover torn off, and pulped back into paper that could be reused to make the next book. Could these book have been the equivalent of the reject rack, and selling the to army was simply a way to at least cover costs? I don't see that these books were specifically printed for the military. OTOH, if they were printed specifically for the military, it has no impact on today's economics. Many industries will sell large quantities of product at cost simply so they can stay afloat and pay the bills, knowing that profit will come in the future.

      I believe what really ignited the post war reading boom was the newly educated population, created through the GI Bill, the brief existence of the housewife, whose appliances gave her much less to do and much more free time, and the willingness of publisher to print just about anything, knowing that they could charge enough so the many failures would be covered by the few successes.

      What might be applicable from this story to the modern day is that publishers still have to pay for printing presses. No matter how cheap it may be to print books, if the books are not selling, and the printing press costs are fixed, then fewer books are paying for the overhead. E-Books may not need the printing press, but the printing press is still part of the fixed costs.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    5. Re:Discounted not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have one of those books and actually, it's printed on higher-quality paper than the bulk of my other paperbacks.

      It's a "pocket book of quotations" and in the front there's an apology for including quotes from Hitler, saying that a well-rounded person should know what was said even by the evil and despicable.

    6. Re:Discounted not free by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      . And at war time, reading books would have been a luxury both at home and at the battlefield. So selling them at the cost of production or at lost is more likely investing for the future loyalty of customers.

      There's also the marketing angle - every company that contributed in even the smallest way to the war effort made damm sure to trumpet it in their advertising and promotional materials, both during the war and for a period after.

    7. Re:Discounted not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so they were given from the employer to the employed, its a pay bonus for their work, not free.

  3. And yet... by iamwhoiamtoday · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So many damn kids these days use the idiotic phrase "Oh, I don't read" whenever I try to recommend a good book.

    Excuse me? Reading for pleasure is one of those things that opens up your mind to new possibilities, that is a window into a new world, that doesn't result in the brainrot of modern TV programming.

    So many US Soldiers spend all their free time playing video games. (source: was in the US Army for 4 years)
    Get off of work? Play video games. Weekend? Play video games and drink booze. Rinse repeat.
    The majority don't take advantage of the educational benefits while in the service, don't take the initiative to research things themselves. I knew more about Field Artillery then the vast majority of my unit while being a paperpusher because I'd look things up.

    Regardless of the ease of access to books, if picking up a console controller takes less effort, that's what people will gravitate towards.
    Watching countless of hours of TV shows on netflix, playing Call of Duty for hours on end, there is no critical thinking. It's just accepting prepackaged crap.
    Books though, they help to open the mind. I'm not saying that reading books automatically make a person a genius who succeeds at everything, but they do make you think. Any thinking is better than no thinking.

    1. Re:And yet... by tepples · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Regardless of the ease of access to books, if picking up a console controller takes less effort, that's what people will gravitate towards.

      Then perhaps the right way to accomplish this is to open up the consoles to e-book authors and illustrators.

    2. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whats it like up on that high horse of yours?

    3. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, for fucks sake, get your head out of your ass. Books are just as "prepackaged" as any other type of media. You're doing no more critical thinking when you read the words someone else wrote than when you watch them acted out on TV.

      And you think they play video games because "picking up a console controller" takes less effort than picking up a book? I read when I'm too tired to play video games, not the other way around.

    4. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get off of work? Play video games. Weekend? Play video games and drink booze. Rinse repeat.

      When the earthquake that destroyed Christchurch struck, an army guy I know was in the area on "training," but they'd finished their training and they were being paid to just sit around and play Playstation games.

      The earthquake hit, and they were all called into action - that's why the disaster wasn't nearly as bad as it was.

      (This is neither here nor there on what youv'e said, just an idle aside.)

    5. Re:And yet... by agm · · Score: 1

      When the earthquake that destroyed Christchurch struck

      Destroyed? Hardly.

    6. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So many damn kids these days use the idiotic phrase "Oh, I don't read" whenever I try to recommend a good book.

      They may just be trying to avoid an annoying bore.

      Are we really living in the age of too much information, or do all generations feel like this?

      Good question. It seems like human nature to feel as though what's happening now is unique. But there has been a measurable shift: in 2011, Americans took in five times as much information every day as they did in 1986. During our leisure time alone, we now process on average 100,000 words each day.

      http://www.newscientist.com/ar...

    7. Re:And yet... by Anonanonaon · · Score: 0

      I respectfully disagree.

      Plenty of brain studies illustrate the multifold benefits of crunching through text over chasing pixels. I don't know what sort of metric one might use, (Ideas per square inch? Number/Diversity of thoughts per minute?), but people who read regularly can observably think, speak and write more capably than those who do not.

      Sure, books can certainly contain just as much propaganda as any other medium, but those other mediums visited excessively result in lazy, addicted brains. I've never met an anti-book, dedicated video gamer who didn't suffer from the apparent umbrella of effects loosely described as 'brain fog'. (Another soft metric, but one which is pretty damned obvious to the observer.)

    8. Re:And yet... by Osgeld · · Score: 1

      so escape in a fantasy written on paper is better than escape in a fantasy on a TV screen, same thing man, escape.

      Why waste your time reading treasure island when you could be using that time to learn productive and useful skills then? Fucking kids of the past, always reading horse hooie novels about places that dont exist!

      naw get off ma lawn!

    9. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is that about your lawn? Sorry captain ass-hat. I too do not read. I have severe dyslexia with a dash of ADD that makes it all but impossible for me to read anything longer than 3 pages. I lose my place on the page, I lose my train of thought, I can't keep random thoughts out of my head for long enough to make any sense of the book. Although I do enjoy reading short articles that get straight to the point and provide me with details without the fluff that makes my mind wonder.

      And with the rising rates of neurological disorders targeting youngsters making them unable to focus I could understand why a lot of people don't read now a days. The worst thing about my disability was endless parade of assholes telling me to read; assholes not unlike yourself. They pretty much made first half of my life a living hell. While I received terrible grades in classes that required reading, somehow I was stellar at Math, yet no one would think there was a problem there. maybe something beyond my control... something that was not my fault. They just wrote me off as lazy and dumb.

      So I just hope no one close to you goes through the hell I went through, even if it would open your eyes. I had many years to cope with my disability. I learned to gather knowledge from things that were not total waste of my time, like encyclopedias and instructional books, to a point where I would consider myself very intelligent. Yet societal attitudes have not changed at all. Somehow reading for 12 hours straight a story which could be summed up in two pages seems to be some sort of pinnacle of mental exercise. I think it's quite the opposite.

    10. Re:And yet... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      So many US Soldiers spend all their free time playing video games. (source: was in the US Army for 4 years)

      Nothing new. Back when I was in the Navy (onboard an SSBN) in the 80's, it was movies or playing cards or zoning out with a cassette player and a set of headphones for most of the crew.
       

      Excuse me? Reading for pleasure is one of those things that opens up your mind to new possibilities, that is a window into a new world, that doesn't result in the brainrot of modern TV programming.

      Excuse me? Horseshit. It depends greatly on *what* you read. I'd guess that 90% of the readers on the boat read male romance novels - I.E. cheap westerns, Mac Bolan (and his spin-offs and clones), low rent spy thrillers, and dozen other kinds of complete tripe. Not all reading "opens your mind" or "doesn't result in brainrot". There's a lot of pure crap out there right on the same level as TV programming, and there has been ever since books became available to the masses.

    11. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those without an education or support through one will obviously not see the benefits. Durrr.

      There's a reason people sign up, they're the failures already and see a well paying career to escape the gutter.

    12. Re:And yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get your friends to read a two time CMH recipient marine general

  4. With Inflation... by maz2331 · · Score: 4, Informative

    6 cents in 1943 was roughly the same as 83 cents now, and $2.00 then would be a whopping $27.54 today.

    1. Re:With Inflation... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So in other words, their numbers about it costing them $2 to print a single book is BS. I'd imagine their actual production costs were far closer to $0.06 than $2.
      In fact, this sounds like a tax dodge: Sell the books at cost - but claim a massive loss.

    2. Re:With Inflation... by hyperfine+transition · · Score: 1

      Two dollars is a lot - paperbacks I bought in the late 1970's were under a dollar so your theory about an inflated price does look plausible.

  5. don't lavish too much praise by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    cheap, paperback books to the military for just six cents a copy, at a time when almost all the other books they printed cost more than two dollars

    Sounds like a bogus comparison. The paperbacks were sold to the government in huge quantities at six cents each. But I expect that the comparison of "more than two dollars" is being made to hard cover books, likely even at retail rather than in bulk. I'm old enough to remember buying new paperbacks retail as low as thirty cents each in the late fifties and early sixties, I doubt if they were more expensive in the forties. Never saw a paperback go as high as two bucks back then, most or all were well under a buck.

    It might be nice to think the publishers were doing their part to help servicemen, but I suspect that when you are buying books in the quantity that the government was, and likely cutting the author out of the equation by selling public domain "classics", six cents was a reasonable wholesale bulk rate.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:don't lavish too much praise by perpenso · · Score: 1

      The paperbacks were sold to the government in huge quantities at six cents each.

      And the publisher probably did not have to deal with the normal shipping. Gov't trucks probably showed up and the printing facility and took custody of the books.

  6. And they used hemp for ropes and uniforms... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then immediately put it back to pariah status with no (or extremely difficult) legal means of growing it and paying taxes.

    America does a lot of fucking retarded things in the name of corporate profit and the status quo.

  7. Freeeemium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Those GIs would have cringed, then vomited, upon hearing the word "freemium".

    1. Re:Freeeemium by haruchai · · Score: 1

      They would have upchucked their freedom fries?

      --
      Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    2. Re:Freeeemium by dave420 · · Score: 2

      "Liberty Cabbage" was the nom-de-nonsensical-nationalism in those days.

    3. Re:Freeeemium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually "Liberty Cabbage" was a WW1 thing, not WW2.

  8. freemium model?? by dk20 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a freemium model, more than 70 years ago.

    How?

    They were given out for FREE, now "freemium" means the game is "free" but you are inundated with "in app purchases", so free but not really free.

    I'm missing the part where the book demanded payment to be able to read past page 5 or some nonsense.

    1. Re: freemium model?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we all know you have to purchase every single non-essential, cosmetic-only item available in those games

    2. Re: freemium model?? by Translation+Error · · Score: 2

      That's because you didn't pay to get the premium portion of the article.

      --
      When someone says, "Any fool can see ..." they're usually exactly right.
  9. Worked for cigarettes, too by haruchai · · Score: 3, Informative

    The tobacco companies went after servicemen in WW1 & WW2; got several generations addicted to smoking.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:Worked for cigarettes, too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, that's what I immediately thought of too.

      Getting people interested in reading is certainly a nobler and more socially useful application of the freemium technique than getting people addicted to cancer sticks.

  10. and the college price was X100 higher by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    and the college price was X100 higher

    1. Re:and the college price was X100 higher by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Not really. My first quarter at a big ten college in the midwest, in the fall of 1977, the tuition was about $800 for the quarter.

      It was much, much cheaper than that a decade earlier.

    2. Re:and the college price was X100 higher by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      talking about books

  11. Even less well known today is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that in W.W. I - the war to end all wars - field-spawned butchers gave away nearly 20 million tons of horse meat, some without any shrapnel at all.

    1. Re:Even less well known today is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such an inspirational story. Thank you for sharing!

  12. Winterhilfswerk by mbone · · Score: 1

    The Germans also had the Winter Charity (Winterhilfswerk), which printed millions of books for German soldiers, both propaganda and stories, humor, songbooks, etc.

    I wouldn't be too surprised if the Brits and the Russians did something similar.

    1. Re:Winterhilfswerk by Kittenman · · Score: 2

      The Germans also had the Winter Charity (Winterhilfswerk), which printed millions of books for German soldiers, both propaganda and stories, humor, songbooks, etc.

      I wouldn't be too surprised if the Brits and the Russians did something similar.

      Brits did. My dad was in WW2, I remember seeing some Army issue paperbacks in the family bookshelves back in Surrey.

      Brits also did free concerts (anyone else read 'The Cruel Sea'?) and suchlike. ENSA was the organization (can't remember what the acronym was for). I guess the UK equivalent of whatever organization sent Bob Hope around the world, entertaining the troops for the US.

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
  13. What is that you're writing... by jopsen · · Score: 1

    I don't read :)

  14. Everything old... by Livius · · Score: 2

    This illustrates how new technologies enable phenomena which are not as revolutionary as some people like to claim.

    True, they are making an impact and they can be important, and from time to time there are genuine novelties, but most things that are nauseatingly overhyped these days are something old but "on a computer!".

    Social media, for example, was trumpeted as enabling the Arab Spring, and, yes, it's role was significant, but it was not qualitatively different from movements that in the past used audio tape, telegraph, letters, printing press, people sailing, people walking, etc.

    1. Re:Everything old... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This illustrates how new technologies enable phenomena which are not as revolutionary as some people like to claim.

      Not exactly. This illustrates how a little copying and widespread distribution at a very low cost will not totally destroy an industry as the RIAA/MPAA douche-bags continually claim it will.

    2. Re:Everything old... by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      While what you are saying is true with your very nice phrasing, the fact is the quantity and speed of information social media allows takes on a quality all its own. The volume makes it revolutionary, not just evolutionary.

      --
      Good-bye
    3. Re:Everything old... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This illustrates how new technologies enable phenomena which are not as revolutionary as some people like to claim.

      Not exactly. This illustrates how a little copying and widespread distribution at a very low cost will not totally destroy an industry as the RIAA/MPAA douche-bags continually claim it will.

      These books used low cost materials and they were treated rather harshly. They were generally not kept or saved. They were disposable and were largely discarded at some point. Its not at all like digital goods.

    4. Re:Everything old... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were disposable and were largely discarded at some point.

      I do not think the durability of the goods has a bearing on the point the AC was trying to make.

      Many publishers feared the program would destroy their industry, by flooding the market with free books and destroying the willingness of consumers to pay for content. Instead, it fueled a postwar publishing boom, as millions of GIs got hooked on good books, and proved willing to pay for more.

      This is the business model that middlemen like RIAA claim is not possible. I myself have listened to bands I had never heard before on fan-uploaded youtube videos. One particular band I liked their music so much I ended up buying about six of their albums right off the bat and I continue to buy them whenever a new one comes out.

  15. Internet forums, social media, etc .... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nothing replaces a skilled author and brilliant writing; especially in book form where an idea and theme can be explored and expanded upon. It allows for deeper thought.

    Internet posts are long bumper stickers and written shouting matches. And most of the time, it is people parroting ideas and opinions that were spoon fed to them from another media source.

  16. Information wants to be free by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 2

    "Information wants to be free" is incredibly misunderstood.

    First, it is information, and does not want anything. It cannot want anything.

    Second, when someone learns something, their first instinct is to share it. Arcade game cheat, little known factoid, best restaurant in a different city, how to apply blush, or really anything that someone deems significant.

    Third, publishers took hardcover books and printed them sideways on a magazine press. This was to reduce the loss on the discount.

    Fourth, the intent apparently was to make readers of men. This is a business model, unrelated to what information wants or does not want. Whether they covered costs or not, publishers got a huge bulk order which may have sold for 25 cents instead of 200 cents.

    I did not read the Council on Books in Wartime link, but I assume that's what people here want to actually discuss.

    Nonetheless, this is unrelated to information wanting to be free. Please, just make a goddamned effort to understand words before using them.

    1. Re:Information wants to be free by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      "Information wants to be free" is an obvious anthropomorphization; of course it can't literally "want" to be free, what's being referred to is the negative consequences that happen when we try to restrict resharing of information: you could almost imagine the information as a person being unhappy and protesting, whenever is censored.

    2. Re:Information wants to be free by Anonanonaon · · Score: 0

      First, it is information, and does not want anything. It cannot want anything.

      I don't know about that...

      Information Theory offers us some revolutionary ideas.

      In a very real sense, you ARE the product of Information which has reached a critical threshold resulting in self-awareness.

      What do *you* want?

      Information certainly seems to have a propensity for self-propagation. DNA is an example of an information-rich molecule arrangement which contains more data than the simple sum of its parts, and which is really, really good at persisting and propagating.

      And as people do indeed act as you describe, "their first instinct is to share it", then this might tell us something about what information wants.

      Just some thoughts.

    3. Re:Information wants to be free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. Don't anthropomorphize things. They hate it when you do that.

    4. Re:information wants to be free by Anonanonaon · · Score: 0

      Wow. You said "highfalutin" and meant it. Also, entropy is a false idea.

      Which probably means:

      c) I, the speaker, have an agile mind capable of lateral thinking, terrifying the one-size-fits-all left overs from the previous evolutionary cycle.

      Ever notice that? Lateral thinkers are capable of recognizing that there are multiple learning styles, while fixed thinkers tend to get defensive and say, "NO! THERE IS ONLY MY WAY!"

      Beside the point.

      I believe Information Wants to be Free, but I also think its a good idea to pay for stuff. Oooooh. How does the fixed thinker deal with such a contradiction..?

      He doesn't. He gets left behind with his crusty, worn out old notions, (like 'entropy' and 'big-bangs'). No wonder they feel so threatened and resentful. Maybe entropy does exist. But just for them. Damn. I'd feel resentful also, if I were unable to keep up.

    5. Re:information wants to be free by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      It's shorthand for 'the natural tendency of information is to proliferate absent continuous, ongoing efforts to stop the flow of information, with any failure effectively resulting in a state for which any flow downstream will be completely unrestricted.'' Information wants to be free is true enough for general purpose just like saying water wants to flow downhill is true enough.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  17. Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalent by perpenso · · Score: 4, Informative

    Does patriotism today only count if you're in the military? The way we glorify military service over all types of contribution / sacrifice for the national interest is pretty amazing these days. It's like the movies have brainwashed us into believing that soldiers are the only national heroes around.

    Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalent. There *is* something different about putting one's own life on the line. And the reason military service is considered in such high regard today is that for many years of very recent history putting on the uniform included a high probability of a combat deployment.

    That said, even in a time of peace there is some risk. Military personnel die in training. Plus there is the ever present chance that a war will occur. One of my high school teachers joined the Marines during peacetime and a couple of years later found himself fighting on Guadalcanal, short on ammo, short on food, short on support from the Navy, and ordered to hold his position at all costs.

    Many people find themselves in terrible dangerous situations and rise to the occasion, but soldiers, police, fireman, etc volunteer for such risks knowingly. Volunteering to go into harms way is a little different from accidentally finding ones self in harms way. Are these people exclusively in uniform, no, for example there were civilians that safely made it out of the world trade center but went back in to help others. That is another example of volunteering to go into harms way.

  18. Heard on NPR by asjk · · Score: 3, Interesting
    When Fitzgerald died in 1940 in Hollywood, his last royalty check was for $13.13. Remaindered copies of the second printing of The Great Gatsby were moldering away in [publisher] Scribner's warehouse.

    World War II starts, and a group of publishers, paper manufacturers, editors [and] librarians get together in New York. And they decide that men serving in the Army and Navy need something to read. ... They printed over 1,000 titles of different books, and they sent over a million copies of these books to sailors and soldiers serving overseas and also to [prisoners of war] in prison camps in Japan and Germany through an arrangement with the Red Cross.

    The greatest distribution of the Armed Services Editions was on the eve of D-Day. Eisenhower's staff made sure that every guy stepping onto a landing craft in the south of England right on the eve of D-Day would have an Armed Services Edition in his pocket. They were sized as long rectangles meant to fit in the servicemen's pockets. (Her assertion was it was this service which reintroduced American's to Gatsby)

    --Maureen Corrigan talking about her book, So We Read On: How the Great Gatsby Came to Be and Why It Endures

    1. Re:Heard on NPR by Kittenman · · Score: 4, Funny

      When Fitzgerald died in 1940 in Hollywood, his last royalty check was for $13.13. Remaindered copies of the second printing of The Great Gatsby were moldering away in [publisher] Scribner's warehouse.

      World War II starts, and a group of publishers, paper manufacturers, editors [and] librarians get together in New York. And they decide that men serving in the Army and Navy need something to read. ... They printed over 1,000 titles of different books, and they sent over a million copies of these books to sailors and soldiers serving overseas and also to [prisoners of war] in prison camps in Japan and Germany through an arrangement with the Red Cross.

      The greatest distribution of the Armed Services Editions was on the eve of D-Day. Eisenhower's staff made sure that every guy stepping onto a landing craft in the south of England right on the eve of D-Day would have an Armed Services Edition in his pocket. They were sized as long rectangles meant to fit in the servicemen's pockets. (Her assertion was it was this service which reintroduced American's to Gatsby)

      --Maureen Corrigan talking about her book, So We Read On: How the Great Gatsby Came to Be and Why It Endures

      I remember once that someone carried a bullet from d-day around with him, and kept it in his pocket for luck. Once he tripped, landed on his back in the street. At the same time, someone in the building dropped a book from a window accidentally. The book was a hardback, fell - but bounced harmlessly off the bullet in the guy's pocket.

      The guy always said that if it hadn't been for that bullet, the book would have killed him.

      --
      "The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill
  19. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by supernova87a · · Score: 1

    Yeah, sure. But most of the people in the military are hardly putting their lives on the line. They're working in warehouses, changing tires, sitting at a desk doing analysis.

    I find it amusing / annoying / ignorant when random people go up to someone in uniform and "thank you for your sacrifice". That's part of the brainwashing of the public to believe that military = heroes. For every 1 hero there are 100 normal unremarkable people. Just like in regular life. Why do we treat all the military like they're the 1% ?

  20. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by perpenso · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yeah, sure. But most of the people in the military are hardly putting their lives on the line. They're working in warehouses, changing tires, sitting at a desk doing analysis. I find it amusing / annoying / ignorant when random people go up to someone in uniform and "thank you for your sacrifice". That's part of the brainwashing of the public to believe that military = heroes. For every 1 hero there are 100 normal unremarkable people. Just like in regular life. Why do we treat all the military like they're the 1% ?

    Basically because the 99% can very suddenly find themselves a part of the 1%.

    Don't be so quick to judge someone by their occupational specialty. Let me explain it to you the way a WW2 paratrooper explained it to me when I was a kid: "Don't trust the TV commercials that the military is a good place to learn a trade, like electronics, its not that simple. Every person entering the military spends some time crawling around in the mud with a rifle learning to fight. Its not some hazing ritual. When the shit hits the fan and things get desperate the cooks, clerks and mechanics are told to pick up a weapon and fight. Regardless of what job you are expecting to have in the military, don't sign up unless you are willing to pick up that weapon and fight."

    This former paratrooper then told me about the truck driver he shared a frozen hole in the ground with while on the front line defending Bastogne. The truck driver was part of group that made a dangerous last minute supply run into the city before it was completely surrounded, after delivering the supplies they were told to pick up rifles and reinforce some paratroopers that were spread out very thinly. The paratrooper's brother was a clerk in the Navy. He was assigned to a destroyer in the Pacific. When the ship went to general quarter, getting ready to fight, he put away the typewriter and ledger books and manned a 40mm bofors cannon. That high school teacher I mentioned earlier, the Marine on Guadalcanal, he was wounded but instead of being medically discharged he was assigned to various army company headquarters units in Europe as a translator. While preparing his discharge paperwork someone noticed that he spoke fluent German, his fate changed. Another high school teacher was a Marine in Vietnam. He was an electronics tech with a desk job on base. Then one day he was told he would be accompanying a force recon team into enemy territory to set up sensors on a jungle road to detect enemy supply convoys. These jungle roads were under a heavy tree canopy so aerial observation was not possible.

    Don't be so quick to judge clerks, truck drivers, electronics techs, etc.

  21. Are you kidding? There's a big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After they gave away the 123 million books, the ones after that were sold at regular market price. It's like a free trial magazine subscription. That's not the situation people are advocating today, where content from now on is just given away for free with ads.

    1. Re:Are you kidding? There's a big difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After they gave away the 123 million books, the ones after that were sold at regular market price. It's like a free trial magazine subscription. That's not the situation people are advocating today, where content from now on is just given away for free with ads.

      Plus the books were essentially disposable and mostly discarded at some point, few made it home. They would have had very little impact on the market at the time, although today they might be quite the collectible.

  22. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by s.petry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, sure. But most of the people in the military are hardly putting their lives on the line. They're working in warehouses, changing tires, sitting at a desk doing analysis.

    I hate to break the news to you, but you are very ignorant.

    Take your example of comparing a soldier to a guy working at Bell Tire or some Amazon shipping. Sure, not all soldiers are deployed to a combat theater, but all soldiers must be trained and capable of being deployed. This means training. Lots and lots of training, which is often quite dangerous. Have you ever seen a person fall 70 feet repelling as part of their duty at jiffy lube? How about a guy at Bell Tire get his face shredded by a weapon malfunction at a range training for combat? The guy at Amazon risks a tank not seeing him and killing him while he's working at Amazon? None of those things real or realistic

    That's not to imply you should give military people sympathy, we still have an all voluntary military in the US. People going in know the risks, just like a police officer in a big city knows their risks. You should however respect that these men and women regularly risk life and limb so that they are ready to protect you from enemies at all times, even if they are not out directly engaging foreign armies/militants every day.

    For every 1 hero there are 100 normal unremarkable people.

    Yet another completely ignorant statement. Every military person gives up rights as a citizen for the duration of their military career. This is not optional, and there is no choice that is not criminal. If you defy the orders and regulation, you spend hard time in a penitentiary and are dishonorably discharged from the military. Go ahead and try to get a job with that on your application.

    As a veteran, I speak from experience and first hand knowledge. I was not deployed to an active combat zone, but was on the ready line numerous times and saw people die from all of the examples I gave above. You don't recognize the sacrifice because you have never made the same sacrifice, and never bothered to consider what a person gives up to serve in the Military.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  23. .06 is not free. by Vellmont · · Score: 1

    $.06 is about 80 cents today. That's not free. You may think it's a minor distinction, but the truth is it's not. We know from repeated sociological studies that people treat free as a different category than something that's charged for. And if you establish the value early on as free, it's VERY hard to go back and get people to pay later on.

    That's totally different than charging 80 cents in 2014 dollars. I'd also imagine that being in the military has different expectations than civilian life. It's a donation the publishers gave to the war effort. Once the war is over, nobody would expect to go back to being given cheap books anymore.

    --
    AccountKiller
  24. Lessons learned for other industries ... ? by Felgior · · Score: 1

    What if you would use the lessons learned by the publishers and use it in the music and movie industry ?

  25. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have no point. In WW2 civilians {clerks, students, etc) were drafted and told to pick up rifles as well. The fact is that 99% of the military sits on their butt behind a desk today.

  26. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Regular civilians die at their jobs too. Construction workers, health care workers. You guys are so full of yourselves.

  27. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by king+neckbeard · · Score: 2

    Except the military hasn't really protected us from enemies in a while. The role has been largely stirring up hornets' nests for short term political or financial gain. Putting your life on the line is not itself worthy of praise.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  28. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by sphealey · · Score: 1

    The writers of the US Constitution has the foundational documents of Sparta available to them. They deliberately chose to go in the other direction. This point seems to be one that is conveniently ignored by self-styled originalists.

  29. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by sphealey · · Score: 2

    People vastly misunderestimate the riskiness of various occupations in the US.

    http://www.vox.com/2014/8/22/6...

  30. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    The amateur radio club I once belonged to had a lot of older guys who had served in either the Atlantic or Pacific theaters in World War II.

    The one thing they ALL remarked on was the mud. They estimate they must have had to truck in all the mud.

    They were good guys - alas many have now died off.

  31. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People also die from papercuts. ZOMG PAPERCUTS ARE AS DANGEROUS AS LIVE COMBAT!!!!1!21@

    (Filter error: Yes I know I used a lot of caps. It was intentional)

  32. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by operagost · · Score: 1

    I plan on thanking my garbage man for his service next Thursday.

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  33. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by s.petry · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And when the Construction worker joins their trade they give up all of their Constitutional rights? His foreman can come to his house without warning and inspect his house and go through all of his belongings when ever the foreman feels like it? The construction worker can be forced to work for several days at a time without any breaks to sleep? The same construction worker can go to jail for telling his boss he's not happy with working for several days at a time without a break? The construction worker quitting his job is a felony and he will go to jail if he walks out?

    Substitute any other profession for construction worker above, with the obvious exception of a US Armed forces job, and the answers all remain the same. These are the facts every military person deals with every day while they serve. Your ad hominem is useless against facts.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  34. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Most people joining the military do so to "defend the US", just like all the TV commercials claim their job will be. Just like most police officers join the force to defend the public. You also failed to read or chose to ignore the 2nd point in my post, which is that all US Military people give up their rights as a citizen as soon as they enlist. This is a very unique sacrifice, and yes it's a huge sacrifice.

    Blaming a soldier that can not control their assignments instead of the politicians who give them their assignments is idiocy. A soldier can not control where they are deployed, only what their actions are while they are deployed.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  35. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Sperbels · · Score: 1

    The point is still valid. You're arguing that because one puts himself in the position (by joining the military) where he can be easily forced to fight, that makes him a hero. That right there pretty much belittles those people who actually have participated in combat. No, I'm sorry...joining the military doesn't automatically give you a cape.

  36. Civilian control separate from noting sacrifice by perpenso · · Score: 1

    The writers of the US Constitution has the foundational documents of Sparta available to them. They deliberately chose to go in the other direction. This point seems to be one that is conveniently ignored by self-styled originalists.

    As I said, volunteering to go into harms way is not exclusively done by those in the military. The founding fathers would be another example of doing so. By signing the Declaration of Independence they publicly declared themselves traitors to the king and put their lives on the line.

    That said, having the military subservient to the elected civilian leadership and respecting the special contributions and sacrifice that members of the military make are two very different things. They are very compatible with one another.

  37. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Sperbels · · Score: 1

    Most people joining the military do so to "defend the US", just like all the TV commercials claim their job will be. Just like most police officers join the force to defend the public.

    Bullshit. Most people join the military and/or become cops to earn money.

    Regardless, intentions don't make you a hero, actions do. If a politician sends you into another country to support a coup to oust some leader who's hostile to American business interests...you're not a hero...you're a mercenary.

  38. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    I'm not saying that those in our military don't make sacrifices or that they are themselves always bad actors , I'm saying that making those sacrifices is not an act inherently deserving of praise as we tend to give them.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  39. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by perpenso · · Score: 1

    The point is still valid. You're arguing that because one puts himself in the position (by joining the military) where he can be easily forced to fight, that makes him a hero. That right there pretty much belittles those people who actually have participated in combat. No, I'm sorry...joining the military doesn't automatically give you a cape.

    You misunderstand and you distort what I said. Lets try it one last time.

    (1) People who volunteer for the military are not forced to fight. They **agree**, up front, to go into harms way as needed. Going into harms way may or may not involve fighting. They further **agree**, up front, that participating in the fighting is a possibility. Furthermore, ordinary military training involves a certain amount of risk to life and limb, even in peace time.

    (2) Non-military also **agree** to go into harms way up front. Ex. Police and firemen.

    (3) Regular civilians have on occasion found themselves in a situation where they can help others by **voluntarily** going into harms way. Ex. Individuals who made it out of the world trade center but went back in to help.

    (4) That people who **voluntarily** go into harms way for others deserve some extra respect.

  40. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by VAXcat · · Score: 1

    Robert Heinlein, in Glory road, quoted Major Ian Hay, back in the “War to End War,” who described the structure of military organizations: Regardless of T.O., all military bureaucracies consist of a Surprise Party Department, a Practical Joke Department, and a Fairy Godmother Department. The first two process most matters as the third is very small; the Fairy Godmother Department is one elderly female GS-5 clerk usually out on sick leave.

    --
    There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
  41. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

    The writers of the US Constitution has the foundational documents of Sparta available to them. They deliberately chose to go in the other direction. This point seems to be one that is conveniently ignored by self-styled originalists.

    I think the militaristic jingoism is a result of how the US came into existence - through war.

    I mean, most countries only have one day to remember their war dead (Nov 11), while the US does the same (Memorial Day), as well as those in service (Veterans Day). Interestingly, while most of the world celebrates those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, it's when the US celebrates those in service, preferring to be different and celebrate its war dead separate from everyone else.

  42. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by perpenso · · Score: 1

    You have no point. In WW2 civilians {clerks, students, etc) were drafted and told to pick up rifles as well. The fact is that 99% of the military sits on their butt behind a desk today.

    The point that you missed is that going into harms way deserves respect, but **volunteering** for it deserves some extra respect. Today's military is all volunteer, hence the extra respect. Plus ordinary military training involves a certain risk to life and limb, even in peace time.

    Another point that you miss is that desk jobs do not mean you had not gone into harms way in the past (the translator I mentioned), or will not go into harms way in the future (the clerk and electronics tech I mentioned, and a Navy radioman I did not mention).

    You also seem unaware that one of the reasons the military utilizes civilian contractors so heavily for supply and support roles today is so that those in uniform may be assigned combat roles.

  43. You make the other side's point ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

    ... intentions don't make you a hero, actions do ...

    You have just made the point of those you are arguing against. The **act** of volunteering to risk life and limb for others over an extended period of time is worthy of respect. The **act** of accepting many personal sacrifices over this period of time is worthy of respect.

    1. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      No, by itself, merely volunteering to risk life and limb for others over an extended period of time is not worthy of respect. A mercenary with a contract of similar length could do the same thing, as could someone joining a terrorist organization. That you are making sacrifices does not make you a hero. What makes you a hero is what you make the sacrifices for.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    2. Re:You make the other side's point ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      "for others" in my original statement is a euphemism for one's fellow citizens. So no, the mercenary is not doing the same thing. Plus the mercenary can break their contract and leave if they do not like the mission or lose faith in their leadership/mangagement. Yet another detail amongst many that make them a poor comparison.

    3. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      "for others" in my original statement is a euphemism for one's fellow citizens. So no, the mercenary is not doing the same thing.

      And truthfully, neither is the soldier. The military hasn't been acting for benefit the general public in a long time, if ever.

      Plus the mercenary can break their contract and leave if they do not like the mission or lose faith in their leadership/mangagement

      Ignoring for a second that you are saying soldiers are better because they can't turn back when they realize that they are actually committing horrific crimes, I'm not sure that a mercenary quitting would be a great idea for their well being, since whoever hired you would have access to other mercenaries.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:You make the other side's point ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      "for others" in my original statement is a euphemism for one's fellow citizens. So no, the mercenary is not doing the same thing.

      And truthfully, neither is the soldier. The military hasn't been acting for benefit the general public in a long time, if ever.

      Here is a second bit of wisdom that the WW2 paratrooper taught me as a child: "Don't confuse the people who fight wars with the people who start wars. They are not the same people. Soldiers don't get to choose what wars they will fight, what Presidents they will trust."

      Plus the mercenary can break their contract and leave if they do not like the mission or lose faith in their leadership/mangagement

      Ignoring for a second that you are saying soldiers are better because they can't turn back when they realize that they are actually committing horrific crimes, ...

      One of the few privileges that a U.S. soldier has is to refuse to commit a horrific crime. Save the hyperbole for political rants.

      ... I'm not sure that a mercenary quitting would be a great idea for their well being, since whoever hired you would have access to other mercenaries.

      Other mercenaries who probably also lack confidence in the mission and/or the leadership and after re-calculating the risk/reward see breaking the contract as the best outcome.

    5. Re:You make the other side's point ... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Wow, nothing like arguing intangibles. A mercenary is not a soldier. By definition, a mercenary is a hired thug who can choose which jobs to take and which to decline. Mercenaries don't have to live by social normals and have no public oversight or public pay.

      Will you next try and bring up jobs from science fiction novels to argue with?

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    6. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      And none of that is relevant to the argument he was making. Soldiers are just people that end up making certain commitments and sacrifices. Whether making those commitments is a good thing or a bad thing depends on the conditions. I'm sure most people and soldiers don't see soldiers of the country they are fighting as heroes.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    7. Re:You make the other side's point ... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Bullshit, followed by more Bullshit. Your point is absolutely false and I have demonstrated that it is false numerous times. Try reading the thread again. You introduced the mercenary argument on your own because you are trying (incorrectly) to claim that the job is identical to a soldiers. There is no such equivalency in regards to a soldier losing their natural human rights and rights every other citizen is provided.

      Your last sentence is an attempt to muddy the waters, nothing more.

      You can not debate the points, you instead introduce fallacy after fallacy to maintain a delusion. I'm not impressed, but then again not surprised.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    8. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Here is a second bit of wisdom that the WW2 paratrooper taught me as a child: "Don't confuse the people who fight wars with the people who start wars. They are not the same people. Soldiers don't get to choose what wars they will fight, what Presidents they will trust."

      I won't disagree, but that makes them parties that make sacrifices, not heroes.

      One of the few privileges that a U.S. soldier has is to refuse to commit a horrific crime. Save the hyperbole for political rants.

      No, they have the right to refuse to commit a subset of horrific crimes specified in the Geneva convention. War itself is horrific by its very nature and is at least a necessary evil. Even at a basic human level, healthy people have problems dealing with it, which is why strict deference to authority and dehumanization of opposing forces are such common tactics, often accompanied by some lofty claimed goal that likely masks the more banal reasons that a leader wants to throw bodies at an issue instead of negotiate.

      Other mercenaries who probably also lack confidence in the mission and/or the leadership and after re-calculating the risk/reward see breaking the contract as the best outcome.

      It would depend very much on the particular context. I would consider hitmen employed by the mafia to be mercenaries, but they can't easily turn their back on a contrct.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    9. Re:You make the other side's point ... by perpenso · · Score: 1

      That dehumanization of the enemy and the lofty patriotic goals that you refer to, the combat vets I've know have said that was all just Hollywood. That's for the civilians at home and that the guys at the front generally knew that such things were BS. That they fought to protect themselves and the guys next to them. That quote from earlier, "don't confuse the people who fight wars with the people who start wars", that vet was referring to both sides. Other vets expressed the same sentiment to me. The only ones that they truly wanted to kill were the leaders in Berlin and Tokyo, and possibly the closely held political troops of the leadership like the SS. As for the regular forces it was regrettable that they got between them and the leadership, a necessary evil. Similar story today. It being regrettable that some Afghan farmer decided to pick up a rifle and get between them and Al Queda or Taliban leadership, a necessary evil.

    10. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      No, I introduced mercenaries specifically because they meet the same criteria of the sacrifice of putting their lives at risk for extended periods of time. I made no claim that they waived their constitutional rights. Blackwater operatives are mercenaries, and many of them are actually ex-soldiers. Automatically giving respect to someone for becoming a soldier is a dangerous mindset because war should be considered at best a necessary evil, and when it is not necessary, it is just evil.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    11. Re:You make the other side's point ... by s.petry · · Score: 1

      No, I introduced mercenaries specifically because they meet the same criteria of the sacrifice of putting their lives at risk for extended periods of time.

      Which is a fallacy argument. The only way that argument could be valid is if Mercenary and Soldiers had everything in common, which they don't.

      Followed immediately by yet another attempt at muddying waters.

      I would suggest that you learn some basic rhetoric skills prior to debating me in the future. I refuse to make additional comments since you can neither hold a rational thought nor express an opinion rationally (take the hint, your position is indefensible, irrational, and illogical).

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    12. Re:You make the other side's point ... by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

      Which is a fallacy argument. The only way that argument could be valid is if Mercenary and Soldiers had everything in common, which they don't.

      They do, in regards to the specific point I am refuting here, which I have proven false.

      You claim that "The **act** of volunteering to risk life and limb for others over an extended period of time is worthy of respect" I point out that mercenaries on extended missions risk life and limb for others over an extended period of time. I also hold that mercenaries are not worthy of respect, and therefore soldiers are not inherently worthy of respect (which is itself an absolutely ridiculous claim). I make no claim for a relationship between mercenaries and soldiers here outside of that particular point.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  44. information wants to be free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    has to be the stupidest slogan of all time
    information doesn't want anything; it has no feelings
    information = decrease in entropy = energy expenditure = cost =TANSTAAFL

    this slogan actually means either
    a) I the speaker, haven't really thought about this
    b) I , the speaker, want something for free that I should really pay for, but instead of just stealing it (like downloading mp3s) I'll make up some BS highfalutin theory to make my self feel better

  45. Acceptable casualty rate is zero for construction by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Regular civilians die at their jobs too. Construction workers, health care workers. You guys are so full of yourselves.

    The construction worker gets to go home every night to the wife and kids.

    The construction worker decides every morning if he will go to work today.

    The construction worker can leave the job site at any time if he thinks things are getting dangerous, or loses trust in his management.

    The acceptable casualty rate on construction sites is zero.

    Those in the military face very different circumstances.

  46. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Sperbels · · Score: 2

    Well, I registered for the Selective Service when I turned 18. I agreed--up front--to go into harms way as needed. I also pledged allegiance to the country every day for years as a child in America's public schools. I think I meet your dubious criteria for canonization.

  47. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    Stating that the US doesn't face any viable military threat is something of a tautology, isn't it? The US doesn't face any viable military threat because it has an unrivaled military force that makes it far too dangerous to take head-on. So, no, with our current military strength, there's pretty much a zero percent chance of an enemy invasion on our home turf, which is a fine percentage for such an unpleasant prospect. How about our smaller and much weaker allies? Is it in our own national interest to help ensure their safety as well, including the many American citizens living and working abroad? It's a question for discussion, but our current military and foreign policy indicates affirmatively.

    The world is, unfortunately, still filled with types that would love nothing better than to conquer their neighbors with military force, for a variety of reasons (power, ethnicity, religion). You don't have to look all that far even today to see a real-life example in action. Do you think China wouldn't simply roll over Taiwan if the US Navy wasn't there as a deterrent force? Or that N Korea wouldn't immediately drive their tanks over their southern border? Do you think the application of military power is a theoretical exercise to the folks in the Ukraine? One wonders if Tibet wished it had a more formidable military force to resist their current occupation. Israel is surrounded by countries who would make them disappear in an instant without their military force. Likewise, Israel is also using their military to hold areas beyond its own original charter borders which it won in previous wars, and has been creating civilian settlements in those territories.

    Like it or not, we still live in a world where, in the end, liberty still must be safeguarded by military might. Those who refuse to acknowledge this are just as ignorant as the people who think the Internet just sort of happens by itself, and thinks that issues like net neutrality don't really apply to them. In the end, the military has done such a good job at defending us from external military threats that most civilians believe there *are* no real external threats. I suppose that's a nice problem to have, but much of the world isn't so fortunate.

    In the end, it's the civilians' jobs to help ensure our leaders don't send our military out on unnecessary foreign adventures, which is a very real danger of having such a strong military, contrary to the stabilizing force it provides in the world when used as a deterrent for real aggression. The military is, after all, ultimately under civilian control.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  48. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

    Misunderestimate? George W. Bush wants his word back.

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  49. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    You are forgetting that in order to justify invading a country, there has to be something worth invading for, and the perceived value of the invasion has to exceed the perceived cost. Factored into that are the effects of politics on the market, which generally doesn't respond positively towards war. So, while the solution is to not drop the military at once, we can make efforts to greatly reduce our military while calling out other powerful nations that don't in kind as imperialistic assholes stuck in a 19th century mindset or earlier in some cases (with providing the people in the countries you listed with the technology to communicate securely being a vital part of such a campaign). All we need to secure our safety is enough of a military to make us not worth invading, and with less and less of the world's GDP being resource centric, it's easier than ever to accomplish this.

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  50. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Well, I registered for the Selective Service when I turned 18. I agreed--up front--to go into harms way as needed. I also pledged allegiance to the country every day for years as a child in America's public schools. I think I meet your dubious criteria for canonization.

    So did I. The point you missed was that our selective service registration was **not** voluntary. We were required by law to do so. Actually enlisting was completely voluntary. All those who serve, drafted or volunteer, deserve respect. But those who volunteer deserve some extra respect. Which is entirely the case for those who have gone into harms way since Vietnam.

    Also respect and canonization are very different things. You make yourself look foolish by conflating the two. Although those who volunteer to be combat medics or corpsman have taken a step closer to the later.

  51. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Sperbels · · Score: 1

    You're right, respect and canonization are different...I was just being smart ass. And maybe you're misunderstanding me. I don't disrespect people for joining the military. But I'm not going to give someone automatic respect for joining the army. I'll give them more respect for their deeds, but not for their intentions (at least not much more) because I know most kids join the military not because of an intention to die for their nation, but for their future careers or just to make a living after high school.

  52. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    You are forgetting that in order to justify invading a country, there has to be something worth invading for, and the perceived value of the invasion has to exceed the perceived cost. Factored into that are the effects of politics on the market, which generally doesn't respond positively towards war. So, while the solution is to not drop the military at once, we can make efforts to greatly reduce our military while calling out other powerful nations that don't in kind as imperialistic assholes stuck in a 19th century mindset or earlier in some cases (with providing the people in the countries you listed with the technology to communicate securely being a vital part of such a campaign). All we need to secure our safety is enough of a military to make us not worth invading, and with less and less of the world's GDP being resource centric, it's easier than ever to accomplish this.

    You are forgetting that in order to justify invading a country, there has to be something worth invading for, and the perceived value of the invasion has to exceed the perceived cost. Factored into that are the effects of politics on the market, which generally doesn't respond positively towards war.

    I think your fundamental error here is that you're an intelligent and rational person, and tend to expect others to be similarly rational. People, both individually and in groups, regularly make highly irrational and unintelligent decisions. What is rational about wanting to wipe some particular ethnicity or religion from the face of the earth, for example? And, keep in mind that in many countries, the arbitrary whim of a single irrational person can foolishly commit an entire nation to war.

    History is replete with examples of invasions that ended up disastrously for the aggressors, but still ended up costing millions of lives before the situation was resolved. The advantage of overwhelming military force is that it prevents all but the lunatic fringe from even considering aggressive action. A closer military parity may allow the more deluded to believe they can achieve victory, especially if they don't mind throwing away a few million peasant lives to do so.

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  53. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by perpenso · · Score: 1

    I've known numerous combat vets from various wars and several vets who served during peacetime. None ever had any intention of dying for their country. I trust your just "being smart ass" again. :-)

    As for joining the military to learn some trade or earn money for college, that absolutely happens. However even in peacetime these people are making a voluntary choice to risk life and limb and to forfeit personal liberties for an extended period of time. I know a Navy Corpsman who is saving up money for college, plans to go to med school, and then plans on returning to the Navy to pay for med school. In fairly recent times he was part of a humanitarian medical mission to Africa. Some really hairy stuff happens that never makes it to the news. By hairy I mean the corpsman has exited the Humvee with his M4 out as the driver speaks with the AK-47 toting locals blocking the road with their Toyota. When you enlist such stuff may be an unlikely remote possibility but you have basically agreed to take such risks at the discretion of your superiors.

  54. gave away ... for free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They gave these books away for free?

  55. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd call such a construction worker being stupid, not a hero. I'd rather not give up my rights for preemptively being called a "hero".

  56. Re:Not all contributions / sacrifice are equivalen by king+neckbeard · · Score: 1

    I will agree that there are countries with leaders with such attitudes, and they are a threat, which is why the solution is not completely nixing the military all at once. That's also why we would undermine their rule by empowering their citizens. There is a strong relationship between freedom of speech and authoritarianism, and introduction of genuine free speech can help turn it around. The general populations of the world, absent the indoctrination that occurs in many countries, has little use for war. It's not economically sound if you actually have to pay for it.

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