College Students: Want To Earn More? Take a COBOL Class

jfruh writes: With a lot of debate over the value of a college education, here's a data point students can use: at one Texas college, students who took an elective COBOL class earned on average $10,000 more a year upon graduation than classmates who hadn't. COBOL, dropped from many curricula years ago as an outdated language, is tenaciously holding on in the industry, as many universities are belatedly starting to realize.

Comments

The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Idimmu Xul]

I looked in to Cobol rolls as a potential career shift as I keep reading on Slashdot how amazing a Cobol job can be...

After a quick scan of most UK job sites for Cobol in London (where all the banks are ..) e.g.

http://www.indeed.co.uk/Cobol-...

Pretty much all roles are £40l-£60k a year and require some kind of real world, commercial experience with Cobol/mainframes etc etc

That's not that exciting, The salaries are lower than equivalent positions in other areas of development. You have to work for someone like Lloyds. Chances are you'll need to wear a suit to work. Have to work in London. By definition, you're going to be supporting ancient, systems which have undergone years of maintenance by probably dozens of different developers and it's going to be super enterprisey, loaded to the gills with change control and red tape, etc etc.

I don't get it.. sounds awful..

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Lotana]

Chances are you'll need to wear a suit to work.

This has always puzzled me why some developers list this as a negative. What is wrong with wearing a suit? Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire. What is wrong with requiring suits over the usual office shirts and pants?

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Anonymous Coward]

Wearing a suit everyday is a pain in the ass. Are you daft?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Noughmad]

Quite simply, it's less comfortable to wear. Considering how much you spend at work, even minor differences in comfort can be very important and well worth the salary difference.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Anonymous Coward]

I like suits. Sounds like you need the trouser seam adjusted in yours, though.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Jane Q. Public]

Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire.

No, they don't. This is a statement made by someone about ready to REtire.

Most high-paying tech jobs today do not require a suit and many not even an office to go into. Often you can work at home in your pajamas, if you like.

Yes, really.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LainTouko]

One problem with it is that the bizarre notion that a suit is "professional" is a tool of social exclusion, and anyone wearing one where it's expected will support the notion, and hence help to exclude people who aren't interested in them or can't afford them.

Also simply just having to abandon my own personal culture and yield to a hateful culture where we judge people by arbitrary qualities of the clothing they wear is an awful feeling, and if I could do this willingly, I wouldn't be so good at demanding correctness elsewhere, and hence writing disciplined and secure code. You want to be able to be yourself at a place you'll be spending a significant proportion of your life. The suits game is wrong on multiple levels, and utterly rejecting it is part of my being.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Lotana]

It puzzles me because it is quite petty (You wear one additional piece of clothing over the usual), this aversion is quite widespread among developers and from my interactions among several white-colar industries it is only in IT that it is present.

Hence I find it odd... Especially since they are willing to sacrifice money to get around this requirement.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Sique]

Suits are uncomfortable to wear, you can't ride with a bicycle to work wearing a suit, they are expensive to clean and the tie feels like it is strangulating me.

(On the other hand, the tie was invented by croatian military riders as a replacement for buttons to close the shirt. To use a tie with a buttonned shirt is quite contrary to its original use case.)

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Lotana]

Ah! That is the first insightful reply and one I agree with.

Indeed, you are being judged by the clothes you wear. This is something I had to learn back in high school when I had to go for my first job interview. It is all about the first impression and regardless of what you know, it will be formed before you even speak. It is tragic that regardless of what you know, it is how you look like that makes the most difference :-(.

Alas, that is human nature and there is no changing that. At some point one has to give up on idealism and just accept that certain realities of society are just not-nogotiable. I guess developers are one unique group that can get away with since they can work from home and avoid seeing clients.

Thank you for your explanation.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[philip.paradis]

Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire. What is wrong with requiring suits over the usual office shirts and pants?

I'm not opposed to wearing a well-tailored suit. I've worn many suits over the years, and I once wore a Navy uniform for a living. These facts notwithstanding, your view on this topic is plainly distorted. My professional workplace doesn't have this expectation, and our average employee salary is considerably higher than that of a great many companies with dress codes. Our expectations are that reasonable personal hygiene is attended to and that our employees bring brains and dedication to work every day. As for clothes, the policy is generally "yes, please, nudity might be distracting." This workplace is a rather large, professionally designed, thoughtfully laid out office space. Lunch is also catered every day. You might be doing it wrong.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[philip.paradis]

If you work in any field involving network infrastructure, software development, information services, or data management/warehousing and your salary is at all dependent upon your attire, I strongly suggest you inquire with competing firms. You may well find they're paying better and place fewer arbitrary burdens upon their personnel.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[vix86]

Suits are uncomfortable to wear, you can't ride with a bicycle to work wearing a suit,

It's clear you've never been to Japan. Dudes ride to work on bikes in suits all the time. Of course, they aren't expensive tailored suits.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[gweihir]

Simple: It is higher effort and cost and uncomfortable, unless you are used to it. In most IT departments, you can get away very well with shirt and (black, non-worn) jeans even as a consultant.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ShieldW0lf]

Quite simply, it's less comfortable to wear. Considering how much you spend at work, even minor differences in comfort can be very important and well worth the salary difference.

If your suit isn't comfortable, buy a nicer suit. A good suit is extremely comfortable.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[gweihir]

Indeed. I do that routinely, as that is the most productive setting for me. Never had any customer complaints either, once they saw the first results.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[gweihir]

Very much this.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[gweihir]

The typical observation is that the more formalism (not only clothing), the less actual skill and insight is present. "Show" replaces "skill".

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LainTouko]

I think the real key is that developers (in common with a few other groups of people like mathematicians) cannot get away with waffling and convincing some person that they're probably right about things. They have to actually get things precisely correct, or their code won't compile or will produce warnings etc. So ideas which depend on illusions, like suits being linked to professionalism, have a far harder time surviving in their culture, because everyone is in the habit of making sure things are right.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[AaronW]

I consider my workplace a professional workplace. In my group we're working on the Linux kernel, networking code and in my case bootloader code for some massive embedded processors (right next to me I have two 48-core 64-bit processors running in tandem (total 96 cores) with 40Gbps ports hooked up. Nobody in my group, from the manager on down wears a suit. If I wore a suit to any of the engineering jobs I've had since college a lot of questions would be raised. A number of people commented on the fact that I did wear a suit when I just started out because I was the only one.

I don't think they care what we wear as long as we're wearing clothes.

Then again I live and work in Silicon Valley but it was the same way when I visited our other engineering facility in Massachusetts.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Your.Master]

Not if it's hot out.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[marcello_dl]

Dude, "But it's commonplace in Japan" is an argument *against* something, not *for* something.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Your.Master]

Don't like it? Fine. You're not indispensable, there is a long queue of people desperate for a job. You need my money more than I need your "skills".

This is the attitude of a person who will only hire and only retain the very worst of employees who cannot find a job elsewhere. Congratulations on employing the bottom of the barrel.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

you are aware of this little think called personal preference and that it is usually different throughout the population? You are possibly also aware of the fact that people do not like to be forced to do things even if they are relatively harmless and especially if they are pretty pointless.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LainTouko]

So when the poor fail to cross an additional hurdle of saving for something which shouldn't be necessary whilst not having enough money to feed themselves properly, which the wealthy don't need to worry about, or simply refuse to go through such unpleasantness in order to obeise themselves in front of the systems which oppress them, you accuse them of lacking self-discipline, and use that as an excuse to deny opportunity from them and keep participating in their oppression.

A perfect example of why suit culture is not just unpleasant, but is actively evil, and anyone ethical should help resist it.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Dr_Barnowl]

That said ; it's also far harder for developers to actually communicate their rightness to other groups, like management and marketing, because they don't understand the language you're using when talking about it. Even if you break it down to the level where your primary school aged children could understand it, there will be people in positions of power that just won't grok what your project is about or why it's important.

At some point, you either have to finish the project just to justify that it should even exist... or do some sweet talking. And that's where a "professional" appearance comes in.

Although some management grok that developer ability is often reversely correlated with dress formality, a developer who groks that sometimes, it's worth suiting up, will probably be able to promote their own agenda. Even among the group of managers that get it, they will gain respect for the recognition that they have made an effort to speak the appropriate social language.

I agree that daily suit wearing just isn't comfortable or necessary, but for the right occasions having a good suit on standby is an excellent way to make a point - that you're confident about your ability. And heck, if you're confident, then other people should be, right?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Your.Master]

I have been to many professional workplaces. Almost none of them have an expectation of a suit -- golf shirt and non-jean slacks are about as formal as you get (for men), and you'll very likely get away with jeans.

Law firms, you'd need a suit if you're going to court, but don't need to wear it daily. Some finance/banking professionals, some government jobs. Some salespeople, depending on who they are selling too (with the proviso that they typically shouldn't wear anything their prospective customer would never wear). I guess comedians wear them.

It makes me wonder where you live. I've lived in different cities in Canada and more recently in the US. I know that older tv shows depict a lot more suits than modern TV and thus I can believe there are parts of the world that adhere to the older standard more often.

Myself, I honestly think that an expectation of formal attire is wrong, whether or not it's common. I would say that clothing requirements should be whatever is sufficient to make the other people you work with comfortable, within reason (and customers, if you deal with customers) -- so maybe we can exclude the guy coming to work in full bondage gear or ass-crack showing thong or a shirt covered in racist statements. This was basically the dress code I had in school since I was 5 and always seemed reasonable to me.

Another way of putting it: if it's not strange that I don't wear a suit on the weekend or on vacation, then why is it strange that I don't want to wear one at work?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

How about cost? A suit costs more than jeans + t-shirt and you'll need a few of them. You still need to own jeans and t-shirts for your off days, so you're buying more clothes then before. Plus suits wear out easier. Torn jeans are trendy. Torn suit trousers are not.

On top of that you can't clean them yourself, you have to take them to a dry cleaner, which costs money. The shirts you can clean yourself but prepare to spend some time everyday ironing, and it won't look as nice as if you'd brought it in for a proper cleaning.

Not to mention the other bits you end up needing to buy (all expensive): nice dress shoes, cuff links, nice dress socks, ties, nice shirt.

Personally, I love the way I look in a suit. And I enjoy that people look at you differently since a suit screams status.

But for a low paying job, it's a huge percentage of your income and not worth it.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

Any job interview I walk into with someone with such a self righteous attitude, I walk out.

Hiring is a two way street: management picks the employees they want, but employees would be smart to pick the team they want to be on.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

In the Netherlands you'll see lots of Dutchies (in very expensive suits) riding bikes around.

It's not a big deal if your suit has been tailored correctly.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[squizzar]

Well buddy you and any job you have can go fuck itself. My particular job requires an engineering degree - in itself requiring a high degree of literacy, numeracy and the discipline to study those subjects. It requires that I understand a wide range of complex technical subjects, that I can analyse things that have never been done before, can effectively and accurately devise ways to design, implement and test those things. I will work long hours for no extra reward in an area that frequently has hard to measure outcomes and progress projects which can take years to reach a prototype stage. If you're planning to hire me solely because I can shave and buy a suit then I have no desire to work for you. Oh, and if you want someone who does what I do and is good at it... well I'm afraid it is you who is in the queue, not me.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[rmstar]

Congratulations on employing the bottom of the barrel.

Now you know how the bottom of the barrel makes a living: by working for the bottom of the barrel. There is something like a Zen riddle somewhere hidden deep within this simple fact.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[DoofusOfDeath]

This has always puzzled me why some developers list this as a negative. What is wrong with wearing a suit?

They're expensive. They generally need dry-cleaning. Spilling stuff on them is expensive. They're typically less comfortable than some alternatives. They tend to be hotter in the summer than what I'd normally wear.

Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire.

Either you have an unusually narrow definition of "workplace", or your statement is just factually incorrect.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Fallso]

What if you don't like wearing suits?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[K. S. Kyosuke]

You could as well ask the opposite question: what's wrong with not wearing a suit?

Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire.

Would that be satisfied with me wearing a pocket protector? :-p

What is wrong with requiring suits over the usual office shirts and pants?

Again, if they are "usual", there can't be anything wrong with them, so what's the problem with wearing those?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Are these comfortable suits cheaper than normal clothing from automated production lines that I find equally comfortable? If they aren't as cheap, what is the justification for suffering the increased cost? What utilitarian value are they going to bring? (And increased washing costs and smug feeling about wearing fancy dresses don't count.)

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[philip.paradis]

While my personal observations in this context are overwhelmingly in agreement with yours, I'll add that there is a subtle difference between office cultures which display visceral disdain for formality and those which merely disregard it as being irrelevant to the core mission of the business. The former may be summarized as "damn the man, we're hip and trendy and full of venture capital, and can you please repeat the question" whereas the latter may be closer to "the attire of a particular group of people only becomes a relevant factor if a strong correlation between utility/intelligence/incompetence is simultaneously noted, and said correlation should not necessarily be assumed to extend to other groups of people."

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[philip.paradis]

I suspect we'd get along pretty well. Hit me up if you're ever in Dallas, TX.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[philip.paradis]

I'm working on some rather large scale parallel network operations, btw.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

Well said - I think you hit the spot with 'arbitrary burdens' here. I cannot stand the BS I have to endure every day anyway and wearing a suit to work is just one more on top of already big pile so I regularly refuse to do that. This has caused problems in number of companies albeit strangely not from official style police but from colleagues that hated the free wheeling arse like me with a beard till his belly, sporting shorts, t-shirt, sandals (with socks) all year long except if it is really freezing. I calmed down a bit and trim my beard twice a month now because I understand some of my coworkers are sensitive to the sight of savages like me. I also stopped wearing shorts all year long because with age I became sensitive to low temperatures. I thought about wearing a more regular clothing to work but then I did not see the point in it because I hardly meet customers and if I do then they are insensitive to this sort of thing.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[gweihir]

I certainly agree to your observation. The question is whether conformity is required to standards (whatever they may be) that have nothing to do with the skill and quality of work that an individual brings to the table.

I also noticed that people desperately wanting to be "hip" and "rebels" and "modern" and "informal" are often anything but and often also have rather low skills. These are basically using their "informality" as "formal attire", and fail just the same to focus on skill and capabilities instead of on conformity. Most of them also do not understand that enforced informality is just the same conformity they claim to reject.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

I think we had this thing some time ago - they called that re-education camps. They were usually organized in far off places where you had time to think about your behaviour while building better life for general society. Changing the point of view is sometimes a constructive approach in resolving issues like these. Let us imagine I imposed my rules of clothing onto you: everybody wears superman cloths! What do you think? Or even better all people that wore suits before now have to wear steel chastity belts. If these things were ever wearable I am not sure but let us try - this is as arbitrary as anything else so why not? So how happy are you about that then? Or why should we stop at clothing. We can impose arbitrary rules on anybody and everybody so why stop there? Let see - why not stop eating meat altogether. I am sure there are many out there that would enjoy the thought and I am sure from perspective of providing the food for world and saving environment that would be good so why not go there. We shall skip tofu too - I dislike this shit so from now we eat everything but meat and tofu. How do you feel about my rules of the game? still happy?

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[zwarte piet]

Who let the PHB in?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

indeed we agree. We cannot change human nature - I consider all people in suits assholes and enemies of humanity. I do not kill them because I have a problem with violence but my patience is bit used up lately.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LordLimecat]

I dont like suits, but I also disagree. A big reason to require suits is because you want your workforce looking professional. You want them looking professional because it makes a good impression on customers; it does this because it gives the appearance of having ones act together.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

Bull.

Short term I may be forced to take a job that I don't want, but long term I'm looking for a place to work where I'm treated like a human being, and where I can enjoy working.

Life is too short to work like a slave.

And while it may be that you have some employees who can't get a better deal, you can bet high performers like myself won't work in your shop – at least not long term.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Shadow99_1]

I found it funny at one job I had where they wanted me to where a suit every day to work... They were paying me $28,000 a year at the time and requiring me to crawl around on the floor at times to check network wiring or move around equipment... I'd need to use a dry cleaners daily to have some hope of keeping these suits clean. It took a lot of effort to explain this to someone and how dress slacks and a dress shirt with a tie may be somewhat better for my work 'uniform' than wearing a suit given some of the activities I had to do... I also argued for a raise based on this mandate, but that didn't go over with them at all.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Herder Of Code]

Depends on your field. In the video game industry, an engineer showing up with a suit for work is automatically viewed with suspicion for various reasons. It's just not part of the culture.

I mean, the CTO of the whole mobile label at Electronic Arts was wearing Jeans on a good day so.. Different industries, different standards, suits make you look unprofesionnal in my industry.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Anyone who sniffs at GBP60K a year (after just a couple of years post college experience) isn't living in the real world.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

A good suit is as comfortable as anything else, only beaten by a pyjama or a kimono.
The only 'exception' I would agree with: it is rather warm when shorts and/or a t-shirt would be enough.
On the other hand wearing shorts in the US is even more front uppon.
Likely you never owned (or simply tried) a good suit?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[NotDrWho]

I took *TWO* COBOL classes in college. Anyone want to hire me?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

Obviously that only works in countries where the customers are that retarded :)
I would bet the huge majourity of IT workers (regardless of software or hardware) simply wear something jeans like and a shirt/t-shirt.
If a customer would enter a development teams room and everyone had a suit on, the customer would rather be shocked than impressed.
But if the season is right I like to wear a Sacco together with my jeans ... a suit in business? Nope, I only have two ... they are much to valuable/expensive to carry into a meeting.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

The tie was invented at various places for various reasons. Your reason is the most unbelievable one, I ever have heard. Why/how should a tie help if you wear a shirt with no buttons? The shirt would still be open, besides at the neck.

One story about the tie is: it is used to cover the buttons of the shirt, contradicts your story.

The other is: british students used it to affront their professors, they symbolize penises worn around the neck ...

I often rode a bicycle in a suit, something is wrong, either with your suits or you bicycle.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[haruchai]

Because it's pointless. How does a necktie and buttoned down sleeves make anyone a better programmer or sysadmin?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

Well, you are certainly right, but it goes both ways.
I'm an martial arts teacher and also a juror in examinations.
You often see people coming to an examination really badly dressed. Not only does that give them an immediate negative point by the jurors, regularly they are also the worst participants.
That does not neglect your point ... but the right dress for the right occasion matters, and right means: well suiting, well worn and clean.
I guess the next time I see one coming into an examination with a dirty 'Gi' I tell him before he has started that he has failed, grumble.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Buy a lightweight cotton/linen suit then.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Often you can work at home in your pajamas, if you like.

That is entirely irrelevant for the majority of people who do have to go into an office dressed reasonably smartly each day. Just because you have a cool, highly paid job where you can sit around in PJs doesn't mean most people can.

It's just an inverted form of elitism.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

A good suit holds a lifetime.
And if there are issues, there are plenty of tricks how a professional tailor can repair it, or retailor it, if you gain or lose weight.
I guess if I count the jeans I used up the previous five years I could get another 1000Euro Armani suit (which includes a Jacket and likely a west).
On the other hand, if you really wanted to invest 1000 dollars or Euros for a suit, you rather go to tailor. You get something with twice the look and twice the quality for half the price from a pro tailor.
A friend of mine is flying regularly to Japan(Tokyo/Kyoto) or Bangkok, sometimes Singapore, just to get tailored Shirts for himself and simple trousers, sometimes a suit. The labour is cheap there, you basically only pay for the cloth you want to be used.
The same is for shoes, it is amazing how cheap actually special tailored shoes are, and how long they last if treated and repaired properly!

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

How about people in chinos and a sports jacket? Or an unstructured suit, t-shirt and no tie?

Or is it only those in the full three piece suit with spats, watch chain and hat that provoke you so?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[swillden]

yield to a hateful culture where we judge people by arbitrary qualities of the clothing they wear is an awful feeling

All cultures do that. Try being the guy at a t-shirt and sandals development shop who likes to wear a suit or even business casual. Personally, I like the t-shirt and sandals approach, but don't make the mistake of thinking you're not judged for your conformity there.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[hendrips]

Every professional workplace has an expectation of a formal atire.

That's a very questionable assertion these days. I would suggest that most workplaces, at least in the United States, do not require "formal attire" in the sense that you seem to mean it except on special occasions. It's called business casual for a reason. Even my neighbor, a lawyer, only has to wear a suit if meeting with clients and/or appearing in court.

Many small, but no less professional, companies, have dropped even that. To use myself as a completely anecdotal example, I usually wear a $30 pair of jeans and a $15 button down shirt from Costco to work. My boss wears a football jersey to work on Fridays. Our company president, quite the fashion leader, can often be seen in shorts, a plaid shirt, and with three days of stubble. We are expected to dress "well" when meeting clients, but that's fairly rare since most of our work is over the phone or email, and even then a full suit is not required. Somehow this has not prevented our firm from making gobs of money hand over fist, and I don't doubt that the lack of perceived B.S. that we have to go through is one reason our employee retention is so high.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

A perfect example of why suit culture is not just unpleasant, but is actively evil, and anyone ethical should help resist it.

Anyone who equates ethics with clothing choice is a fucking idiot.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[hendrips]

On the one hand, I absolutely agree with your sentiments. Suits suck. But having said that, if buying a new suit for an interview is a hardship, there are several charities which offer free or low-cost suit rentals to those who need it for a job interview. Now, you might say that the mere need for such a charity service is disgusting in itself, and you'd be right. But, since we're stuck with this problem for the moment, it's probably the best way to help those in need. You might want to check around your area and see if any charities accept suit or "interview clothes" donations.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

you can bet high performers like myself won't work in your shop

Everyone on slashdot's a high performer, of course.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[hendrips]

Look, I like to think of myself as a fiscal-conservative/libertarian, but when I read something this elitist and out of touch, I really start to sympathize with those Occupy idiots.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Oh, and if you want someone who does what I do and is good at it... well I'm afraid it is you who is in the queue, not me.

Maybe you should set aside a fraction of your invaluable time, and employ a small portion of your vast intellect and unique talent pool to look up the word "outlier" in a dictionary.

You have essentially the same attitude as the banker on ten million a year who doesn't understand why there are people who have to catch the bus to work.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Any team I've worked on, there is a universal dress code, whether it's suit and tie or jeans and t-shirt.

Your individual preferences are irrelevant.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[sycodon]

So, in other words, a professional work environment where you work on something that is essential to the economy.

Making web pages, cool widgets, etc may be fun, but there is and always will be a need for people to maintain the systems essential to running the economy.

If you think that working on "systems which have undergone years of maintenance by probably dozens of different developers", try doing that on something written in C or and of the other Alphabet languages.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tehcyder]

Where I work, a lot of people cycle in. Most people don't wear suits but they still have a change of clothes.

Sweating heavily into a pair of jeans and a tshirt is no different from doing the same in a suit.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[schlachter]

What percentage of IT/scientist/engineer folk wear casual clothes to work?

I personally wear jeans and a t-shirt most days, with the occasional polo shirt or button down when we have executive leadership visiting. I'd wear a suit if it came with a substantial raise, but otherwise no.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

Suits wear the same way jeans and other pieces of clothing do.

Yes, sometimes they can be repaired, but if the tear is in the wrong place, the suit is ruined.

And, yes, I've worked in jobs where I had to wear suits regularly, and I wore good suits not just any suit.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[KingOfBLASH]

you can bet high performers like myself won't work in your shop

Everyone has the potential to be a high performer, of course.

FTFY

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[tlhIngan]

Indeed, you are being judged by the clothes you wear. This is something I had to learn back in high school when I had to go for my first job interview. It is all about the first impression and regardless of what you know, it will be formed before you even speak. It is tragic that regardless of what you know, it is how you look like that makes the most difference :-(.

Alas, that is human nature and there is no changing that. At some point one has to give up on idealism and just accept that certain realities of society are just not-nogotiable. I guess developers are one unique group that can get away with since they can work from home and avoid seeing clients.

Depends on the developer. Some like the self-employed or entrepreneurial must have suits at the ready because you must communicate a "professional" appearance to a client if you want their business.

Developers who really want to be locked away from customers do exist, but they're generally locked away and forgotten about - treated no better than common factory workers where dress code is more optional. Those who interface with customers often have to dress "better" - maybe not a full suit, but a shirt, pants or slacks and maybe even a tie. Basically just one position above t-shirt and shorts.

Though apparently some social studies have come to a conclusion that you ARE what you wear - people were given a lab coat and asked to perform some puzzles. When they were told the coat was a painter's coat, they performed OK. When they were told it was a doctor's coat, they performed measurably better.

There's also a cultural issue - in many cultures, a suit is standard attire and not wearing one puts you in an automatic lower social class, which can be problematic if you want to be treated as an equal. Likewise, there are many instances where a suit is just a collection of clothes that make people in general "look good" and where if your job doesn't have you getting dirty, you're expected to wear it.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Nimey]

If I absolutely had to I could wear a suit. I draw the line at wearing a goddamn tie, though, especially one that must be tied.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[westlake]

If you work in any field involving network infrastructure, software development, information services, or data management/warehousing and your salary is at all dependent upon your attire, I strongly suggest you inquire with competing firms.

Your salary is defined by your usefulness to your employer and your potential for promotion --- which implies that you know how to dress for the different roles you must play within the company and are being realistic about your age and appearance.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Barsteward]

"Meanwhile, khakis are $25 and a polo shirt is $15. It's simple math, folks. 40 is less than 300 by a wide margin. "

so you are going to wear 1 shirt and 1 pair of trousers all year.... yuck

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

You have to look wider. It is just not Cobol, the IT industry in the UK is paying shit salaries. And not only up north, I have received a lot of job offers to Gibraltar, and their offers are laughable, even if I were a local, which I am not, and thus will have added expenses.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

A suit is a uniform, period. Akin to the uniforms of drivers or restaurant employees, no more, no less. Times are changing. Once the suit was only used for leisure 100 years ago, a few decades ago was seen as a luxury item, and nowadays is seen as a work uniform. And a very expensive uniform that you are paying out of your own pocket, and you have to change it often. A good suit also can cost on the tune of 1000 dollars. The cheaper ones look...well (too) cheap. The suits are also nowadays the prerogative of sleazy people, salesmen, bullshit consultants and politicians. I trust more a guy on designer clothes than a guy on a suit (hint, even daft football people his wearing suit nowadays). You are far better off with high street clothing than a suit nowadays if you have money to spare.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

are wearing suits...Even as english not being my mother tongue, I am painfully aware of some mistakes.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

Pity I dont have the mod points to mod you funny.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

A really good suit is damn expensive, and you do not buy just one to use everyday.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

Nonsense. Suits are only uniforms, nor more nor less. Culture shifts and change rapidly. They were once only for leisure, funnily enough. Nowadays they are the more on the realm of bullshit consultants, sleazy sales and dishonest politicians. If you want to stand from the crowd and have enough money to spare, high street designers clothes, iWatch and iPhone, good quality shoes. Forget the suit.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

I am a professional on the top of my career, more than 15 years of experience, and sure do not want to work for a cretin like you. And I doubt I am not alone. Good luck.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LWATCDR]

Yes and no.
The whole work from home thing is becoming less common. Agile development is doing a good job killing it.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[LostMyBeaver]

Starting will always be low. After 3-5 years, you can expect much more. COBOL is for conservative organizations where computers enable business not define them. You'll work a few years and maybe end up in management or be stuck writing RPG for 50 years.

All banks will hire people with no experience just because the alternative is hiring no one. Want experience? Intern a summer or three.

The COBOL market is hard to get into. It also sucks to be in. But the pay is steady and the employers are stable. You'll be under-appreciated and you'll be bored to tears. But if you like personal stability, want the ability to get stocks in highly lucrative companies and have a bunch of free time to be a musician or climb mountains, it's an awesome job.

It's truly the job for people who work to live instead of living to work.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

With that attitude you will only attract drones, yes men and people who know no better. The better employees will give you the middle finger even in the interview stage. I would. And just to be honest, I have money that will last to pay my bills for decades to come, and my life is to short to work with nazis like you that know no better that working is a two way relationship, and that you own me respect. Respect, apparently a word you do not know the meaning. And the day you lack me respect, you will be held accountable for it, no matter who you are. Power corrupts and it is an illusion, and I know well it. But trust me, sometimes it can be fleeing on time, and maybe, just maybe one day you will be the "lowest step of the ladder". You are a mean person and someone who is not suited to have a successful business and work with the best of the industry.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

| Everyone on slashdot's a high performer, of course. Tell us, you wish you were, isnt it the true? The truth is good and experience employees will be picky about their place of work because they CAN. Those who cannot, well...

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

You surely are jesting me. I bought GOOD suits ten years ago, and the bottom of the range were 800 dollars. 300 dollars will buy you a cheap suit period. Which does not look good AT ALL.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ruir]

I have two or three COBOL classes, including AS400 in college, but would prefer to shot myself in the head first. Or have a lobotomy, than working in COBOL.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[__aaclcg7560]

Could be worst. I'm working in an office filled with ex-military types. They weren't happy with me until I shaved everyday, ironed my dress pants everyday, and got a crew cut every month. Now I'm a well-scrubbed jarhead just like them.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Matheus]

That being said... your average (I'd go WAY farther) tech employee only needs to wear a suit in an interview and honestly I don't even do that. Wearing a suit to an interview implies a certain level of dress code following and i don't want to send the wrong message :-)

"Nice" suits cost in the arena of hundreds of dollars. Your average employee doesn't want to be spending 4 figures on a selection of suits so they don't have to wear the same thing everyday. Add to that dry cleaning costs too. Since I go into an office everyday (at the moment) I do have to rise to a certain dress code but that means: Shoes (first time in 15 years I haven't been able to wear my sandals to the office and that's just because some b!tch I never run into whined about it), Long pants (Jeans in good shape are acceptable) and a nice shift (I've worn as 'low' as a nice unbranded T but generally this involves some buttoned shirt of some variety / polo.). Aside from my $100 shoes that I wear everyday so don't need a selection of my average outfit is in the $100 range so I can afford to have a closet full. My last suit cost me $600 (and that was no where near as expensive as I could have gone). My cheapest suit was closer to $350. I make good money so I can afford to have a selection of those BUT that's a large number that my budget would prefer to put into something else.

SO.. long story short if you feel like requiring me to wear a suit to work then you are not going to be my employer.. ever. I can make similar remarks about needing to pee in a cup, etc... none of that is keeping me from being well employed. The world is a different place than it was 20 years ago.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

Suits are usually made from cloth that is far more robust than cotton used in jeans. And ofc they are not 'stone washed' and half destroyed like jeans when you buy them :)

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

Care to explain?
A jeans in Germany costs close to 100Euro, at least if you want one of those american brands. 2 per year is 200 Euro per year, 5 years makes that 1000Euro.
A good suit costs you less than 200Euro in work, the rest is the cloth you decide to make it from, so if you star in the midrange, make that perhaps 500 in total, if you take three suits you get rebate and are perhaps in the 1200 Euro range.
Nothing elitist about it, only calculating for your lazy ass the costs.
But you likely rather throw away 3 jeans a year instead of once visiting a professional tailor and ask his opinion.
Your fault, not mine :)

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Matheus]

...and missing the point of the article. The article is saying that the average salary was higher by $10k/year. They didn't even say said salary was for a COBOL job! Not sure how salaries compare in the UK to here but GBP60K is about $100K and honestly that's pretty freaking sweet for a fresh grad in coding here.

Either way $10K difference in pay is probably not what a seasoned coder would refer to as "exciting" but for a fresh grad the difference between say $60K/year and $70K/year is pretty significant and maybe worth spending 3 credits on. Best if you don't have to even use it after graduation but knowing about it seems to be worth the pain.

I'm currently reading a lot of COBOL so if that bumps my next salary by 10K then I'll be pretty happy about it BUT I won't be taking any jobs writing COBOL any time soon :-)

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Aristos Mazer]

You have essentially the same attitude as the banker on ten million a year who doesn't understand why there are people who have to catch the bus to work.

I disagree. My company is an engineering firm that provides tools to other engineering firms. As such, when I visit customers, I am frequently going into engineering workplaces. The number who require suits/formal attire is vanishingly small. So I think that squizzar is correct in his (her?) attitude: no one in a tech role really has to put up with a formal dress code if they do not want to. There are plenty of jobs for engineers, at least in the USA, even in this economy, and an employer who puts a dress code up as a barrier to employment is more likely to find themselves without top-tier talent than the top-tier talent is likely to find themselves without a job. So it really is the employer who needs to change their attitude.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[antdude]

Or WFH naked. ;)

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

I think the article is talking about entry level jobs, which are automatically low. Maybe the average goes up for COBOL because even a few extra people getting jobs even at the same rate might raise the average salary.

In the US anyway, COBOL is everywhere, not just financial areas. I don't know why that's not true in UK.

And a boring job with COBOL is bound to be massively more exiting than the boring IT job.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

It's all expensive though. The suit is ok, you can have one only and wear it every day (all you can afford on entry level salary), and if someone complains they can fork over the money to buy a second one. A pain to keep clean, probably have to use the dry cleaners, and you have wrinkles all the time. Gain just a little weight and you need a new suit, lose a little weight and you don't need the new suit but you look silly. They're very very hot, one reason most office crank up the AC.

But the tie is the killer I think, that's what scares people off. They're uncomfortable, even when not tight. I get a suit tailored to fit, and it's annoying once that top button is closed, and lousy once the tie is on. It's hard to relax with that tie on, and that means you can't think well. You're just waiting for the wedding, funeral, or dinner to be over so you can rip it off.

I had the job where we didn't need a tie just dress shirt and slacks. It was ok, but I'd rather not go back to that. The slacks wear out very quickly compared to jeans, you're the only guy walking on the street that isn't casual (Calif, where wearing polo shirt and khakis is dressing up formally), and everyone knows you're the bottom rung IT flunky just by how you look. The shoes are uncomfortable too. Then you're stuck in a lab or workspace where those nicer clothes are out of place. The very first thing that happens when you get home is a change of clothes.

I agree that dressing up is the most minor of all workplace inconveniences. If you pass up a good and interesting job because of a dress code then that is indeed short sighted. However that doesn't absolve the suit from being inconvenient, archaic, and unnecessary. There's a reason most workplaces are relaxing the attire requirements.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

Dressing smartly is itself a problem. A low paying entry level job can be stressful enough without the fasion police coming buy and telling you that you need to spend the rest of your measly salary upgrading your wardrobe.

I remember my early job where I went from the labs in nice shirt and slacks down to the next town for a meeting and they all said they knew where I was from right away because I was the one without a tie. It's how you tell the drones from the workers.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

No, you wear a completely different outfit from the usual. Different shoes, socks, trousers, shirt, plus an additional jacket and tie. Every one of them is very expensive (except maybe shoes, some people buy very expensive athletic shoes to go with their ripped jeans), and you need multliple sets, so it's a big financial hit right off. Then they're much more uncomfortable, that goes without saying, because if they were as comfortable as other clothes then you'd see people wear them more on weekends.

As far as white collar goes, I'm in California and almost everyone here dresses casually, from CEO down. That doesn't mean so-called "business casual" which is actually dressing up a lot. It's hot so the suit is just a stupid attire choice already compared to icy places like NY. Then again, at NJ Bell Labs I asked if I should wear a suit to the interview and they emphatically shouted NO. I haven't had a white collar at work since the 80s, and even then it was a hold out compared to other jobs in the area. There is no sacrifice in money to do this either, you rarely see any engineers wearing a suit to work at any level, and rarely with the executives either.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

This is regional though, and varies in industries too. There are people who will downgrade an interviewee for showing up in a suit. I think that's short sighted but it happens. What flies in the financial industry in major financial cities is not the same attire that is used in development, engineering, or technical jobs. And COBOL is most definitely not used only in financial industries. Best bet is to scope out the job before showing up; look at their web page, if all the pictures of the executives are in polo shirts then you won't need the suit; drive by the place and see what people are wearing in the parking lot. Or just call ahead, it is perfectly appropriate to ask what expected attire should be.

Re: The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

Except for the entry level job. You usually take what you can get because you have no clout at all, and it's lucky just to get the interview. You need to build up a lot of experience before you can pick and choose the team you can be on.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Darinbob]

Also it's unclear what the average salary means. Do they count all the people who didn't manage to find a job, or who are stuck at McDonald's, in which case just one person getting a high paying job bumps up the average quite a lot. Or are they only considering graduates who actually got a job in the computing field, or a development/engineering job rather than support desk peon?

I wonder if just having taken an elective at all is what it takes to raise the average starting salary. As compared to most students who take the minimum necessary to get out of there.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ShieldW0lf]

What if you don't like wearing suits?

Wear a MacDonalds outfit instead, if that's what makes you happy.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

Normally I abhor violence but as soon as I hear style police telling me how inappropriate socks & sandals are I have a feeling that pulling their guts out would be a too nice of an option really. In any case I would also go for either crucifixion or if that is cumbersome at least putting them on the stick. Other than that I appreciate your comment. I will think of it once in a while as a nice reminder of how thin a layer of civilization may be.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[umghhh]

Indeed - the one on the left looks like a photo on my badge.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Fallso]

You assume that wearing a suit is a prerequisite to holding down a well paid job, how naive.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Sique]

Ok, I'll bite. The necktie is also called cravat in Englisch, cravate in French, krawaat in Dutch and Krawatte German. This is derived from "Croat" or "hrvat" (as the croatic word for Croat). See Wiktionary: cravat.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

Yes, you bite, but you don't explain.
Why should a romanian wear an open shirt with no buttons and put a 'cravate' around his neck.
What exactly would that achieve? The shirt still is not closed and has still no buttons ...

Then there is the open question if a Romanian cravat and a 'modern' tie have indeed something in common or are simply parallel 'evolutions'.

The history of the word is right btw.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ShieldW0lf]

No, I just understand that there are plateaus that you can't pass if you refuse to look presentable, and that it's a lot easier to present an image of respectability that people outside your field can see than to try to explain to people who don't understand what you do why they should trust you. People who don't understand your field need a way to judge you, and time spent forming a judgement is a risk; if you turn out to be of no use to them, that time was wasted. So, if you make it harder for them than it needs to be, they may just decide not to bother.

Making your professional life harder for yourself over something so insignificant in the grand scheme of things is really kind of childish. I used to rebel against people who wanted me to cut my hair when I was in high school too, but eventually most people accumulate enough substance as human beings to set aside these childish attempts to assert their individuation.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Sique]

First: Romanians are not Croats. While the Croats live in Croatia, a mainly catholic country with a slavic speaking population, the Romanians live in Romania, a mainly orthodox country with a roman language (and with considerable hungarian and german minorities). Romania doesn't even border to Croatia, they are separated by the Serbian Vojvodina.

Supposedly, the popularity of the cravat soared after a parade of a Croatian cavalry regiment in France in 1663. The Croatian cavalry was part of the Wallenstein troups which quite successfully fought in the Thirty Years war, and where the Croatian tie was part of the uniform, as you can see here. Ties were in fact part of many military coats, partly to protect the neck, partly to have a flexible way to close the shirt around the next. The croatian tie gained popularity especially because of the special tie knot.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[ShieldW0lf]

I think professionals should wear suits, and I'm highly competent, as demonstrated by the many world class projects on my CV.

Your view of the world is flawed.

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[angel'o'sphere]

So I mixed up the two countries over the discussion ...
Sorry, but that was not the point.
The point was 'button less'.
But I figured now that misinterpreted 'button less'. I assumed the shirt was 'open at the front' and lacked (for whatever reason) buttons to close it. And the parents post indicated the cravat or tie was the solution to it.
However I figured now that with 'button less' a shirt was meant, that is closed at the front and does not need buttons :D
However that makes the original sentence not more clear. On the other hand, I would not know how to describe such a shirt properly in english.
Interesting: Croatia is catholic and not orthodox, besides it is slavic and surrounded by orthodox countries and Romania is orthodox besides it is surrounded by catholic countries?

Re:The UK Cobol Climate Is Very Different

[Jane Q. Public]

Yes and no. The whole work from home thing is becoming less common. Agile development is doing a good job killing it.

Utter nonsense. It was Agile Development that STARTED my work-at-home. Where did you get the idea that they are incompatible? In fact, it is Agile that made the whole thing possible.

COBOL: Why the hate?

[Lotana]

There is certanly a lot of hate directed at COBOL. However, since if it is still being used, then it still has some capability that is not available in other solutions. Also looking at the wikipedia, the language keeps being updated (COBOL 2014 standard is out for example) and supports object-oriented methodology.

COBOL is one language that I haven't encountered. Perhaps it would be insightful if someone can explain why there is so much animosity towards this technology.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Jane Q. Public]

However, since if it is still being used, then it still has some capability that is not available in other solutions.

No, no, no, no!

COBOL is still in use because because mid-to-large corporations spend many millions of dollars on systems that WORKED, and now it's far cheaper to keep them working, the same old way, than it is to do it all over again with modern equipment and languages.

This is called "installed base" and it's a particular problem for COBOL because that was one of the first business languages, and has one of the largest, large-corporation "installed bases".

COBOL has nothing to offer that newer languages don't do better. Not. One. Thing.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Todd Knarr]

And in many cases they probably can't do it over. We're talking about major financial and operational programs that weren't designed so much as they evolved along with the business over the course of the last half-century (since the introduction of the IBM System/360). The specs and requirements, if they exist at all, are buried in the back of a warehouse the size of Warehouse 13 and have probably been turned into nests for the mutant rats. The source code in many cases doesn't match the binaries or doesn't exist at all thanks to errors in migrating data and mistakes in editing files. The running binaries may literally be the only authoritative statement of what rules the company's accounting follows. There's a reason every single IBM mainframe since the S/360 has been capable of emulating an S/360 down to the hardware level, after all.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[gweihir]

My guess it is mostly from people that find learning languages really, really hard and that try to get by with one (or sometimes two) languages, like Java and JavaScript. When these people are told "why not do COBOL?", they immediately freak out, as they are reminded that they are not really programmers, but 1-trick-ponies and actually have really no business producing software because they suck at it. And then they feel that COBOL is not something new and it is safe to lash out at it. Unfortunately, these people represent the majority of all "programmers": http://blog.codinghorror.com/t...

Conversely, competent programmers will just see it as yet another language and learn it at need and without any issues in a few weeks. A friend of mine once had to learn APL (the one with the bizarre symbols) and even that did not take more than a couple of weeks to become productive.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[gweihir]

I think you are quite mistaken when you look at reliability, scalability and stability of the definition. These are all huge cost and risk factors. Of course, most "programmers" do not even understand what these terms mean.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because as a language it is brain-dead when compared to modern crop. Stupid, abominable abuse is allowed and used everywhere.

It has pointers (REDEFINES), and has it in such a way that basically means death to structural programming. I.e. redefines do not have to be of the same size even!

It has some strong points:
1. built-in binary-packed decimals support
2. unlimited precision bignums
3. integrated stuff, like reports, screens (TUI) and filesystem-based database, which can be really fast at the expense of maintenance, it is like assembler of databases.

None of those strong points are unique these days. Common Lisp has unlimited bignums e.g.

It has some drawbacks:
1. Control flow is screwed (GO TO out of PERFORM semantics, and corner cases)
2. Did I mention goto? Well, having goto is one thing, abusing it like having it everywhere is another - and that's what COBOL does
3. Data definition hell, initially sold as flexibility - i.e., 88s, 66s, 77s, REDEFINES, PIC, USAGE (oh!, usage clauses)

drawbacks are unique to COBOL, pretty much.

So hopefully you see why no one likes that guy.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Dr_Barnowl]

VB6 may have a similar status in a while. I refused to learn VB.NET because it would destroy my VB6 knowledge, because it's almost but not entirely completely different.

The things I can make VB6 do are both amazing and shameful..

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[itzly]

Well, if the source code is not available, it doesn't pay to learn COBOL.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[HJED]

C has goto. C has pointers. C pointers can be cast to something that is a different size... most of the disadvantages you've described seem to apply to C as well, care to enlighten me on the difference (other than bad programmers) .

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[umghhh]

and what is wrong with this approach? I have worked with different software systems that evolved or replaced others. Each way has its problems and I have seen some systems successfully virtualized before the word virtual got into common usage in this context. This way we had ability to use old system and new gadgets. I dare say this way we could keep good quality, robustness and power of old system (good characteristics were because of good internal structure and care to keep it that way - something modern developers do not know and do not care about) and combine that with high speed new HW and modern administrative tools. Win-win. The same organization trying to develop much simpler and less powerful application took more time and produce bigger mess that we had experienced before. I am not saying this is true every time but it was true for me and this one product.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Nimey]

I would not be surprised to learn that a large percentage of existing Cobol is one of the archaic dialects that cares about which column you put things into; further, that most of the users of said dialects have no interest in the expense and risk of modernizing their code to a less painful version of the spec.

Besides that, there's the sheer verbosity of the language. Writing out DIVIDE 20 BY 4 GIVING RESULT vs. x=20/4, for instance, is simply annoying.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Daniel_Staal]

1: It's wordy. Larry Wall's famous statement on it is: 'I knew I’d hate COBOL the moment I saw they’d used “perform” instead of “do”.'
2: It's Crufty. Lots and lots of odd corner cases that are there because it made sense in the 70's, as well as decisions that used to be standard: All variables have to be declared at the start of the program, for instance. (With strong typing.)
3: It's finicky. The position (not the indentation) on the line matters, you have to declare things like your input and output formats formally (and separate from where you use them), etc.

COBOL is an excellent example of design-by-committee and then 'accumulate features as needed'. It's object-oriented features are a great example: Bolted on as an obvious afterthought, at a weird angle from the rest of the language, but yes it can be used. It all works, and you can write programs in it, but it's like being forced to write a bad instruction manual.

What it can do that other languages can't, mostly, is run on Big Iron with legacy code from before I was born. It has some decent features for financial markets (decimal numerics are supported natively, for instance), but mostly it's that it's been in banks and big institutions for decades and it's cheaper (and less risky) to hire someone to support it than to hire teams to rewrite their entire codebase. It works, and has been working, basically forever in computer terms. My mom learned COBOL in college, on punchcards. The language hasn't changed all that much since then. (For good and bad.) It's unlikely ever to be 'cool', but it's also unlikely to go away anytime soon.

Re:COBOL: Why the hate?

[Jane Q. Public]

I've done both.

VB6 was well-organized and coherent (but not entirely object-oriented).

But .NET, when it came around, was an attempt to do 2 things at the same time: [1] create a common underpinning (bytecode runtime) for all their IDE languages, and [2] insert object-orientation at the same time.

.NET was a mess. I liked VB6, as incomplete as it was, but .NET felt like a random conglomeration of just "stuff" thrown together to make it web-compatible. And I really hated that even when you created a pre-defined web object in .NET, you still had to manually define actions that should have been defaults for any such object. It is just plain weird.

In my personal opinion, having used both: VB6 was a great product for its time. .NET was made to be a successor to it, but never quite made the grade.

I had a couple COBOL classes

[I'm New Around Here]

One in high school in the late 80s, and one college course while in the military.

Of course, I may need to freshen that up a bit.

I took a COBOL class...

[grouchomarxist]

...many years ago. An extra $10,000 a year isn't enough to get me to program in that language again.

I wouldn't advise anyone to study COBOL unless they really needed the job. If you go that route you are going to be doing uninteresting (to me anyway) programming in a ghetto while other programmers of your generation are doing more interesting things. COBOL is a dead-end.

Re:I took a COBOL class...

[Barsteward]

COBOL has been a dead end for more years than i care to remember and yet it still lives...... I got my first experience of a proper DE in the mid 80's with MicroFocus COBOL's workbench, it was brilliant, it sped up development and you could create programs starting at the Working Storage section, the first inline debugging i'd ever come across.. ahhh they were good days.

Re:I took a COBOL class...

[Shadow99_1]

Your reminding me of when I learned COBOL... using microfocus in the 90's... I've never programmed in it after learning it though... I do however like the ability to describe the specific parts of what are effectively strings (though I don't think they are ever referred to as such) when handling input and output. I miss the fine ability to output text in C or C++ where I need a lot more effort to create the precision COBOL has...

You can't earn a lot while working for others

[Taco Cowboy]

Working for others may get you a decent living, but if you really, and I mean, REALLY want to earn a lot of money, working for others won't make you rich

I started by working for high tech companies, some decades ago. Yes, I did earn really decent wages, much better than most of my peers at that time. But I didn't stop there

When I was working, I noticed niche markets that were not being fulfilled. I got out and started my own companies (plural) to do just that

Some of the companies I sold to others, some I kept. A lot of people are working with me right now, but I gotta tell you, no matter how much I pay them (and yes, I do pay my co-workers very handsomely) they still do not earn as much as I

The moral is very simple --- if you really want to be wealthy, stop being a worker, and start being an entrepreneur

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[TrollstonButterbeans]

You have a strange definition of freedom if you want freedom and then hate upon others who use the freedom they have to do what they wish.

Your world as described in your comment isn't freedom, it is fascism (i.e. I will tell you how to use your rights).

"Ultimate goal is to enjoy life without harassing other people all too much."

Well, you can start doing that tomorrow. You pretty much failed on that goal tonight. Perhaps tomorrow you won't be harassing others and telling them how to use their "freedom".

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[Wootery]

Non sequitur. Your life experiences do not dictate universal truth.

Your success as an entrepreneur does not mean that others will find the same success; your 'moral' isn't well supported. The risks of entrepreneurship are well known (and are obviously one of the main reasons we aren't all entrepreneurs). You are demonstrating survivorship bias.

Your point that successful entrepreneurs earn more than company employees, depends on which company employees we look at. I'm willing to bet the top people at Bank of America pull down more than your average entrepreneur, but of course very few employees will ever have the opportunity to get such a position.

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[Roger W Moore]

REALLY want to earn a lot of money, working for others won't make you rich

Tell that to the banks and the finance industry in general. You might not make it to billionaire but millionaire is easily achievable, all for risking other people's money with apparently almost zero risk to yourself even if you are the one responsible for messing up.

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[tehcyder]

The moral is very simple --- if you really want to be wealthy, stop being a worker, and start being an entrepreneur

Most people aren't entrepreneurs. To be a successful entrepreneur, your primary goal in life has to be making money. Most of us just want to earn enough to be comfortable and free to do things we actually enjoy.

You're either a natural born entrepreneur or you're not.

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[tehcyder]

What are you talking about? If someone uses their "freedom" to oppress me, they're the ones who are fascists.

It is perfectly acceptable to curtail other people's absolute freedom where it impinges on someone else's, e.g. you are not free to murder me.

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[haruchai]

That depends on your line of work. If you're a coder for a bank, then no.
But moving up to management levels in many companies, you'll do very, very well.
And there are some serious paycheques to be had if you're a senior accountant. A cousin of mine took off several years to raise her family, giving up her $200,000/yr salary because her husband made several times that at the same firm.

Of course, it depends on where you set the bar for being "rich". But you can potentially earn millions annually working for others, just not by writing code.

Re: You can't earn a lot while working for others

[ruir]

No jobs? I am getting job offers all the time, often to the tune of 2 or 3 per week, are you telling me they are all fake?

Re:You can't earn a lot while working for others

[Marxist Hacker 42]

So when do you ride down Electric Avenue on that Harley?

Thanks, but no thanks.

[richardtallent]

I took COBOL -- late 90's.

The one job interview I went on where I could put that skill to use showed me why I *wouldn't* want such a job.

The issue wasn't the language per se, it was the fact that most companies still using COBOL are also trapped in chronically underfunded and undervalued IT departments, holding old machines and apps together with bailing wire and duct tape.

Re:Thanks, but no thanks.

[Thanshin]

I took COBOL, early 2000s. Best on my "promotion". Years later I still see it as "what I'll do to avoid homelessness and for no other reason".

Re:Thanks, but no thanks.

[bws111]

Um, yeah. Most companies running COBOL are doing it on NEW IBM mainframes, which they have paid millions of dollars for. These companies (banks, insurers, finance, reservation systems, retailers, etc) absolutely know the value of IT, and pay for it. What they don't 'value and fund' is someone who tells them they are doing it wrong, and they should replace perfectly functional systems with all new shiny.

Re:Thanks, but no thanks.

[Darinbob]

On the other hand, they have their own computing departments. Many modern companies don't even bother, they outsource everything, or they believe the marketing spiel from SAP or Microsoft or Oracle and then waste all their time with professional services trying to get stuff working.

Re:correlation vs causality

[antifoidulus]

Um, COLBOL is probably one of the few languages out there that DOESNT have a dedicated fan-boy following. Seriously, watch this thread and see which of the following statements gets the most hate:

Ruby, as an untyped language, is incredibly slow and thus should not be used for large scale systems

Node.js encourages unmaintainable code because of "callback hell" and prototype inheritance is an abomination

Java is way too verbose to be useful, and the JVMs gc sucks

Python is a fractured environment and should only be used for small-scale projects

COBOL is a dinosaur language that is only useful for maintaining crufty legacy code.

It's not all roses.

[Anonymous Coward]

You get $10k more a year. The downside is you have to use COBOL.

Re:It's not all roses.

[Bratch]

Could be worse, like doing all that work in PL/1.

The same as with Fortran

[hooiberg]

I have been making a living by coding in Fortran for the past 5 years. An interesting conversation between the detachment company I worked for and one of its potential clients:

client: Do you have anybody who writes Fortran?
employer: Sorry, that is too old, we do not do anything with that.
client: But one of your employees (me) has on his linked in profile that he is a Fortran programmer
employer: he must have forgotten to update it, but we will have a look
client: please do.

And a month later I was working at the client. had a really cool time for ten months. All you have to do is present clearly that you are skilled at it, because otherwise everybody will think you have made a mistake.

Re:The same as with Fortran

[mrbester]

"He must have forgotten to update it"
Bet you're glad you left.

Re:The same as with Fortran

[linuxrocks123]

"He must have forgotten to update it."

HTF does that make any sense? Once a language gets "too old" it gets erased from your memory even if you knew it before?

Re:The same as with Fortran

[hooiberg]

The sales droid suffered from a severe case of buzzworditis. The company contracted me as a scientific programmer, which I am, but tried to get me to learn Java, and similar, and building GUIs. There was a misunderstanding between 'technical' and 'scientific' and sales people did not understand the difference. The term 'simulation' refered to simulation of machines, with SCADA interfaces etc, and not the simulation of physical processes, such as CFD. Not only did I not like that, I was also bad at it. My current employer suits me perfectly, though. :-)

Re:The same as with Fortran

[hooiberg]

According to sales, you do not want to flaunt knowledge that is not fashionable, almost as if it is something you have to be ashamed of. I have a rather heavy simulation program that worked fairly well, and we prepare to get it to run in parallel on a cluster. Marketing asked whether we could also makes a version that runs on apple deviced... Really... That was the moment when I decided I had to go.

Re:The same as with Fortran

[linuxrocks123]

Would this be OS X, where porting it so it could run on high-end Mac Pros might make a modicum of sense, or iOS, where you'd have to be on multiple psychedelic substances to believe that would be a good use of resources?

Average

[jones_supa]

students who took an elective COBOL class earned on average $10,000 more a year upon graduation than classmates who hadn't

Makes me think if this is median or mode average. Maybe there's a single expert who got some crazy $10,000,000/a mission critical deal. ;)

Correlation/causation?

[91degrees]

While it's quite reasonable that the extra pay is because these people get good jobs developing COBOL, is it perhaps possible that it's more about the mentality of the person who takes such a course?

For example, if I'm interested in making lots of money I'll go into financial software. A lot banks still use COBOL, so doing a course on that increases my options in this area. Even if I don't use it ever again, and don;t even go into banking, I'm still a lot more likely to work for a company that pays a lot because money motivates me.

Re:Correlation/causation?

[CastrTroy]

Not only that, but I imagine that COBOL isn't a fun course you can take to easily increase your GPA and I don't think there would be many schools that would make COBOL mandatory. Even if you don't end up going into finance, the kind of person who would take COBOL as an elective course is probably the kind of person who works hard and actually is interested in programming. People who elected to take COBOL as opposed to JAVA or C probably did so because they already learned those languages in their spare time when they were 15 and didn't feel they needed a course on it. People who are actually interested in programming end up becoming much better programmers and will be the people who make more money at it. Also, some of the people taking COBOL might have been already been working in the industry, and went back to school to get their degree. They might have already had a job where COBOL was important and took the course because they already knew the material.

Correlation is not causation

[jaffray]

If you don't care about what kind of job you get, just how much money you make, then:

a) You will make more money than someone who considers other factors in their choice of career.
b) You will take any courses which you're told will enhance your marketability, no matter how disgusting. Like COBOL.

Hence it's unsurprising that people who take COBOL make more money... but is it *because* they took COBOL? That's less clear. Correlation is not causation.

Re:Correlation is not causation

[KingOfBLASH]

Could it not also be that people who want to really understand computer architecture better take obscure classes like COBOL, and being better programmers make more money?

Re:Correlation is not causation

[Herder Of Code]

I fail to see how COBOL would teach you about the architecture of computers... It's not like it's a language close to the metal.

Also, I had the unfortunate "opportunity" of learning Cobol in University, I was in the last class taught before they retired the mandatory class. It's like any other programming language in University, after one semester of class you know basically nothing and it covers stuff you could've picked up in a few days of self teaching on the internet.

Re:Correlation is not causation

[mbourgon]

And they decide to take it at age 20? I took a full year of COBOL in college in the 90s (the last class forced to take a full year), and made sure that it never showed up on my Resume - even the hypothetical 10k wasn't enough to have to deal with COBOL for a living..

Re:Correlation is not causation

[Darinbob]

It's an elective course. Taking it automatically puts you ahead of other students who do the minimum effort.

Re:Weeding Out

[gweihir]

This is a typical thing: The "modern" solutions are all bells and whistles, but are missing basic things or do them wrong. More often than not, this is because they were designed by people that saw some real or perceived shortcomings in older tech, but completely missed its strengths and failed to reproduce them.

Example: Ever tried to do massive multi-threading in Java? That fails miserably and the byte-code interpreter does nothing but task-switching very soon. In an "enterprise" setting, these things are toys when the back-end is considered.

Re:correlation vs causality

[gweihir]

Good hypothesis.

Is it COBOL or the people?

[SuperKendall]

One of the things I think when I look at something like that is, the $10k difference is illustrating how much more people make that care enough about computer science/programming to take the time to explore many languages - not so much that they are all getting COBOL jobs, they are just more competent.

Re:Is it COBOL or the people?

[jasenj1]

I would consider COBOL to be computer science history. It may not be too useful in itself, but it shows where we came from and how things used to be. Someone willing to take that kind of class seems more dedicated to the realm of CS than someone just trying to get their MSCE or certificate in the latest fad.

Re:Is it COBOL or the people?

[ranton]

After reading the article, the $10k difference they are using was between those who took the COBOL class and ALL Business Computer Information Systems students. That degree is more of an IT degree than a software development related degree (at this school). It is a very bad comparison.

I would be more interested in how those students who took COBOL compared to the university's Computer Science and Engineering students.

Re:Is it COBOL or the people?

[Darinbob]

Or compare all Computer Science and Engineering students to those who took more classes than were strictly necessary for graduation.

Supply IS GREATER THAN Demand

[Monoman]

Shocker. Economics 101. As the the pool of COBOL programmers is reduced the shops still needing them are going to have to pay more.

Re:Supply IS GREATER THAN Demand

[sandytaru]

I think it's this more than anything else. My best friend's father is a COBOL programmer. He came down with hairy cell leukemia and was down part time while he went through chemo and all that stuff. The company was completely understanding, and from what I hear gave him a friggin raise when he came back because they didn't have anyone else who could do what he did and they were scared of him retiring early due to health reasons.

I don't think those kids are writing COBOL

[sirwired]

I don't think those kids go out into the wide, wide, world to program COBOL. I suspect that the subset of CS majors that care enough about real-world jobs are the sort to take a COBOL class, just in case it comes in handy. You'd probably also see that these students are more likely to pursue computer-related summer and in-school part-time jobs, more likely to participate in open-source projects etc.

I know that when I was looking for jobs, I had a whole stack of job offers, despite a middling GPA. Some of the other students in my dept. struggled to find a job, despite better grades. The difference? Two computer-related summer jobs, four different tech-related work-study jobs, and a LOT of extra-curricular study in IT. If my school had a COBOL course, I probably would have taken it. (I did take a SQL course, which wasn't even offered by the CS dept.; it was in the business school, along with the other IT (vs. CS) classes.)

Personally, I LIKE working for the man!

[sirwired]

Speaking for myself, I like working for the man! I get to spend my entire workday (consisting of reasonable work hours) doing something I enjoy (Enterprise IT architecture.) Yes, "The Man" makes more off me than they pay me (they are a profit-making company, after all!)

But in return for the 6% Net Profit they report annually, The Man does all the things I don't want to, like Sales, Marketing, Legal, Accounting, Administration, Management, Benefits, etc. I don't want to do those things myself, nor am I particularly interested in figuring out how to manage somebody else doing those things for me.

I do well enough... I'm on track to retire comfortably at 50 after years of doing work I enjoy and working with people I like (and don't have to manage!), and I have a lot less stress than a serial Entrepreneur.

If doing all that scut-work, or managing others to do it for you, is what floats your boat, more power to you! But it's certainly not for everyone.

Errr... not all employees are downtrodden

[sirwired]

You sound a bit unhinged.

Did it ever occur to you that some people don't mind being employees? I'm not sure how you equate "working for somebody else" with inevitable serfdom. I show up for work for reasonable hours under reasonable working conditions, I do my job, they pay me for it, I go home. Nobody took rights away from me; if I don't like the arrangement, I tell my boss it's over and I go elsewhere. No violence necessary or wished-for.

Re:Errr... not all employees are downtrodden

[Darinbob]

Not everyone is cut out to be self employed either. Reminds me of the media attitude towards silicon valley, thinking that everyone is an entrepreneur or wants to be one, whereas most people think 1 mortgage is plenty. If I were self employed I'd be broke. I can't sell anything, much less myself. The limited amount of sales I can do involves finding someone to hire me. I don't see why having a boss telling you what to do is worse than having customers telling you what to do, though with the customers as the boss you end up working longer hours with more stress and a less stable income.

Re:correlation vs causality

[Wootery]

This is correct. From what I'm seeing in the summary at least, there's a very clear selection bias.

This depends somewhat on what is meant by 'elective'. If it means extra-curricular, there's an obvious selection bias on proactiveness. If it instead means you get to choose from this set of courses, then there's still be a selection-bias (perhaps students with an interest in programming languages as an end rather than just a means, are on average more successful as software engineers).

Re:correlation vs causality

[Wootery]

Doesn't matter. There's still a selection bias.

Suppose that students with an interest in programming languages (as an end, not just as a means) on average go on to be more successful software engineers. These students are more likely to take the COBOL course (assuming the alternative courses are on topics other than programming languages).

Even if the course teaches them literally nothing, we still expect the students who opted to take the course, to do better than average.

Re:My college didn't offer any programming languag

[Saffaya]

Likewise, mine expected you to know C++ to understand OOP.
Never had a C or C++ course before or after.

Required languages to know

[Murdoch5]

C, ASM, COBOL, PHP-8 / 11, Fortran, Perl, Bash, SH, PHP / Rails and Java. If you know those then you'll be set for pretty much anything you'll find in the real world.

Re:Required languages to know

[Anonymous Coward]

C, ASM, COBOL, PHP-8 / 11, Fortran, Perl, Bash, SH, PHP / Rails and Java. If you know those then you'll be set for pretty much anything you'll find in the real world.

You'll be set for your entire career.

Well, for 10 years anyway.

OK, maybe 5.

*checks Craigslist*
Of course, if you knew C#, SQL, JavaScript and some of the new packages, and maybe throw in R, Python and Scala then you'd really be in pretty good shape. For this week.

Re:Required languages to know

[__aaclcg7560]

Don't forget that HR folks will expect five years of experience in the newest technology that came out six months ago.

Yes, but No. NO. **NO!**

[Monty Worm]

I took an elective course in beginners COBOL back in the day (1992). It was an elective, but it was picked blind, before the course had started. I quickly realised that I didn't want to work in this language, and that C was much more interesting.

These days, I write perl. Which is closer to C than it is to Cobol. Cobol, if anything, is closer to banging your head against a brick wall - it feels *so good* when you stop.

COBOL is fun!!

[Hohlraum]

Took we had to take it in CS back in the early 90s. I actually enjoyed it quite a bit. Now, would I want to program in it for the rest of my life? Probably not. :D

Ada not a bad option

[Drethon]

I've been kept pretty well employed thanks to Ada experience. Military projects are not a large niche but the companies I've worked for tend to have issue finding people with Ada experience and don't like training. Plus those projects pay a little better than average.

Best of All = Cobol 2 Javascript

[fygment]

1) Learn javascript
2) Learn cobol
3) Use Cobolscript
4) Profit !

Did you read his whole post?

[sirwired]

Did you actually read his whole post? I don't care if he would prefer not to employ people, although implying that anyone that would employ someone else for profit is pretty much Evil Capitalist Scum is a bit weird.

What I keyed off of was: " The only reason why I do not act violently against people like you is that I abhor violence even more than I abhor your ideals." The only thing stopping him from violently attacking perfectly normal employing business owners is disliking violence some small amount more?

Re:Weeding Out

[angel'o'sphere]

Actually, Java is _the_ language for doing massive multiprocessing/multithreading in, I don't get where your weird aversy comes from.
A pretty bad example of yours, but alas the clueless moderators disagree :)

Don't Do it! - no growth, career limiting move.

[landoltjp]

Yes, sounds great. Make 10K more out of the gate. And if you're finding it tough to land a job right now, what a DEAL this is! You're employed! You're really needed since the number of COBOL programmers to support legacy systems are dying off (figuratively and literally).

There's the catch. They've got you. You don't know it, but they know it.

Next year, your fellow grads who got jobs are learning TONS of new things, other skills. Team building, real life design. Team leadership. They're getting mentored perhaps. They'll make their way up to intermediate, then senior developers. Maybe into architecture.

But you're still slogging through COBOL code. Supporting legacy systems.

And they can't afford to lose you, so your company (A Bank most likely - not the fastest moving group in the world (and I know since I've worked for three)). So you're still COBOL programming. But, y'know, thanks for the effort. Here's a 2K bonus.

Uour friends are now 2 years along in their careers, they're moving to new jobs, making 10-20K more since they can show job experience, skills experience, and real-life development qualities.

You're even or a bit behind, pay-wise. But they're going places. You're about to stand still, career-wise.

In a year they shoot past you, and that's that. You're standing still. Cost-of-living increases if you're lucky. But hey! We at the bank really appreciate it. So here's a nice mouse pad, and the latest patch release for COBOL on the Z-Frame.

So, no movement here. What to do? I know!! Other companies need COBOL programmers. I'll play the field and see who will throw me more money.

Great. You make a bit more money. Doing EXACTLY the same thing, somewhere else, with little if any career growth. It's possible you will always have a job, since COBOL is entrenched, and not going anywhere. But that's all you'll ever do. That and cut 1650 reels with your teeth.

Don't Do it. It's a trap.

Re:Don't Do it! - no growth, career limiting move.

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, while your fellow grads are all being dumped because they are "too old" at 35 and the industry would rather hire 20 year olds willing to work 80 hours a week for mythical stock options, you the cobol programmer will be able to continue working until retirement instead of getting that fast food job because nobody else will hire you.

Yes, some of your fellow grads will be able to continue up into the management pyramid, but most won't be able to.

Better Students

[DarthVain]

A more likely correlation is that better students make better money. If you are taking COBOL as an elective you are trying hard as a student selecting courses that are hard but meaningful to your degree, rather than simply picking some easy A course to bump your average. If goes to figure that these more serious and better students with drive and motivation will also apply those same principles when trying to find work.

I took COBOL myself in the late 90's, however not as an elective but as a mandatory CS course (I think it was mandatory anyway). I have not used it one whit other than I had it on my resume for a bit before I acquired enough other experience to fill it out, and possibly to mention it offhandedly in an interview or in discussions on Slashdot.

Re:Weeding Out

[Thiez]

Are you seriously suggesting COBOL is more suitable for massive multi-threading than Java?

didn't work for me

[jsepeta]

I took 1 cobol class and have been consistently under-earning my peers by $20k/year. Alas, I'm a Network/Server/project manager and not a coder.

Third World Problem Page

[tehcyder]

It's my fundamental human right not to wear a suit to work.

Cue the Frozen music

[RogueWarrior65]

Just let it go, people.

nver seen one offered at Stanford, MIT ...

[peter303]

In the past four decades.

Generally if you are proficient in a couple languagse, you really dont need to take a course to learn a new language.

Re:Weeding Out

[gweihir]

I know somebody that tried this. At around 5000 threads he got no real progress whatsoever anymore.That was a while back, but at that time Java was already a few years old.

You're nothing special.

[westlake]

Well buddy you and any job you have can go fuck itself. If you're planning to hire me solely because I can shave and buy a suit then I have no desire to work for you.
Oh, and if you want someone who does what I do and is good at it...

I'll have no trouble at all finding a replacement who has all your skills and none of your attitude,

Re:You're nothing special.

[ruir]

You would be better be sure of it because he is not alone.

Re:Weeding Out

[geggo98]

I know somebody that tried this. At around 5000 threads he got no real progress whatsoever anymore.That was a while back, but at that time Java was already a few years old.

The thread limitation comes from the operating system, not from the Java virtual machine. Modern operating systems are not designed to handle a huge amount of parallel threads. The handling of the threads and the synchronization between the threads usually eats up most of the system's resources.

The Java VM indeed has some shortcomings regarding mutli processing: when using multiple cores on the same socket, the Java VM sometimes accesses the same cache lines from all cores. This leads to strange patterns with cache invalidation and slows down all the affected cores. Currently there is no way to mitigate this using Java APIs or VM parameters. But this is a very special problem. When this is indeed the bottleneck, the underlying application is very likely already very well optimized and running quite fast.

If you want to process a huge amount of data, currently the best approach is to run exactly as much threads as you have processor cores. Then you feed each thread with working tasks, using non blocking data structures. For the communication, the threads should use non-blocking IO. Java is prepared extremely well for this scenario, perhaps even better than node.js. Examples are Vert.x and Akka. In some older benchmarks, Vert.x had no problem to serve over 300'000 parallel requests per second on a six core machine.

Edited on on 18:05 Wednesday 17 September 2014: fixed some typos.

Not a long term plan

[bigsexyjoe]

If you know COBOL and are going to retire in ten years, COBOL programming can be a good deal.

But if you are 22 it is not a good deal at all. The demand might be high relative to supply, but it is going to slowly shrink. Your better bet is to get experience in something that has a high demand, not because of a small supply of programmers. I'm pretty sure being an experienced Hadoop engineer, for example, will get you more money and the tail of that career is longer. When Hadoop goes out of fashion, the next thing will probably be an incremental change over Hadoop so it won't be too hard to learn. When you are sixty you can take care of legacy Hadoop systems and make good money.

But if you are 22, learning COBOL doesn't have a long pay off. You will make a good, but not great living. Like I said the demand will be low. Your COBOL experience will not put you into a good position to learn hot new things that are based on object oriented and functional programming. Furthermore, you won't have written anything cool and great, so it won't be a great path into management.

If you honestly can't get any job, maybe learning COBOL would be worth it. But I think there's a bigger payoff learning object-oriented JavaScript.

Re:Weeding Out

[gweihir]

Seriously, stop redefining my statement. You have no clue whether the threads in my example were needed or bad design. And no, it was not the OS.

ROTFLMAO!

[whitroth]

A COBOL programmer, in 1998, is utterly beyond fed up with dealing with code for the upcoming y2k, and has himself put into cold sleep until after the year 2000. Something gets screwed up in the records, and he's left to sleep away millenia. Finally, they wake him up. He's appalled to learn it's the year 9998, and everything and everyone he knows is gone. On the other hand, he's *really* in The Future, and is looking forward to all the amazing things we've done.

"Just one question", he asks the team that woke him up, "why now?"
The leader answers, "Well, we're about to roll over the year 10,000, and your records say you're a COBOL programmer...."

                  mark

Re:Weeding Out

[Thiez]

Your statement is shit. "Some guy I knew a long time ago once used threads for some unspecified purpose and when he got to thousands of threads it become very slow". Well that is just great. What was he trying to do? How was he trying to do it? You act like your anecdote proves something but without this information it contributes nothing to what could have been an interesting discussion.

Since the discussion was originally about COBOL, are you suggesting that language is more suited to massive multithreading than Java? If so, why? And if you truly need thousands of threads, perhaps you need Erlang?

Where do I send my resume?

[nedwidek]

I'm all set for the interview!

000010 IDENTIFICATION DIVISION.
000020 PROGRAM-ID. INTERVIEW-PROG.
000030 AUTHOR. ME
000040* DUMBEST TEST IMPLEMENTED IN COBOL
000050
000060 ENVIRONMENT DIVISION.
000070
000080 DATA DIVISION.
000090 WORKING-STORAGE SECTION.
000100 01 FIZZ PIC X(4) VALUE 'Fizz'.
000101 01 BUZZ PIC X(4) VALUE 'Buzz'.
000102 01 N PIC 9(3) VALUE ZERO.
000103 01 X PIC 9(2) VALUE ZERO.
000104 01 Y PIC 9(1) VALUE ZERO.
000105 01 Z PIC 9(1) VALUE ZERO.
000110
000120 PROCEDURE DIVISION.
000130 MAIN-PARAGRAPH.
000140 MOVE ZERO TO N
000150 PERFORM UNTIL N = 100
000160 COMPUTE N = N + 1
000170 DIVIDE N BY 3 GIVING X REMAINDER Y
000180 IF Y = 0 THEN
000190 DISPLAY FIZZ WITH NO ADVANCING
000200 END-IF
000210 DIVIDE N BY 5 GIVING X REMAINDER Z
000220 IF Z = 0 THEN
000230 DISPLAY BUZZ WITH NO ADVANCING
000240 END-IF
000250 IF (Z > 0) AND (Y > 0) THEN
000260 DISPLAY N WITH NO ADVANCING
000270 END-IF
000280 DISPLAY ' '
000290 END-PERFORM
000300 STOP RUN.

Re:Weeding Out

[angel'o'sphere]

If you have more threads than cores, obviously it slows down, in any language.
If you have 5000 'working' (not sleeping) threads on a single core, obviously they have to share the processing power, obviously every thread can only run with 1/5000ths of the cores capabilities (much lower even due to context switches).

That is a no brainer and has nothing to do with the language.

But good luck running 5k threads with C or C++ then :)

As others already suggested: try Erlang ... but the programming paradigm is quite different.

Re:Weeding Out

[gweihir]

Your analysis is shit. I gave this as an example for a larger trend, as in this is 10% of my actual statement by importance.

Re:Weeding Out

[gweihir]

Really? You presume to teach me CS 101? Pathetic.

10K from COBOL is in fly-over country

[drew_eckhardt]

Moving somewhere outside fly-over country where software is core to businesses not a cost center does more for salaries than studying COBOL.

New grads at the big Silicon Valley tech companies are getting $170-$190K packages - like $115K salary, $100K signing bonus, and $200K restricted stock package vested over 4 years.

$2500 apartment rents and a 9.3% state marginal tax rate take a big cut out of that although it's still a net win.

Cobol? Fortran and metalanguages

[bbsalem]

I had to read some COBOL about 30 years ago as part of migrating a database. I had done my first programming in FORTRAN which is almost as old. I suspect that the call for COBOL is that there is need for people to read old code that still needs to be maintained, but my impression of the language is that it was really just about 80% boiler plate and 20% executable. So, couldn't a metalanguage be invented that reads COBOL source and produces some source code that reflects something widely used today, even something much newer?