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Mark Zuckerberg Throws Pal Joe Green Under the Tech Immigration Bus

theodp (442580) writes "A month after he argued that Executive Action by President Obama on tech immigration was needed lest his billionaire bosses at Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC have to hire 'just sort of OK' U.S. workers, Re/code reports that Joe Green — Zuckerberg's close friend and college roommate — has been pushed out of his role as President of FWD.us for failing to Git-R-Done on an issue critical to the tech community. "Today, we wanted to share an important change with you," begins 'Leadership Change', the announcement from the FWD.us Board that Todd Schulte is the new Green. So what sold FWD.us on Schulte? "His [Schulte's] prior experience as Chief-of-Staff at Priorities USA, the Super PAC supporting President Obama's re-election," assured Zuckerberg in a letter to FWD.us contributors, "will ensure FWD.us continues its momentum for reform." Facebook, reported the Washington Post in 2013, became legally "dependent" on H-1B visas and subject to stricter regulations shortly before Zuckerberg launched FWD.us with Green at the helm."

261 comments

  1. Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drive down wages, you American IDIOTS. It's all lower class, a light smattering of old people who have money who could possibly count for a lower middle class, and a thin crust of extremely wealthy people who either got there honestly or by luck or in the case of Zuckerberg, by luck and thievery.

    1. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by sabri · · Score: 5, Informative

      Drive down wages

      In the specific case of Facebook, it is not about driving wages down. Facebook pays decent wages, even for Silicon Valley standards. It is about not increasing wages.

      What Facebook et al need is a way to ensure that they'll be able to fill their positions without creating too much of a jobseekers market so they won't be forced to lure employees away from the competition. All those sign-on bonuses, recruiter fees and salary increases (usually roughly 10% if you jump ship) will add up quickly.

      Truth of the matter is, in the SF Bay Area, it is hard to be unemployed if you're a properly skilled tech worker, citizen, green-card holder or otherwise. That doesn't mean I condone the way that the H1-B program often is being abused today. I've seen abuse, and we'll always see that. But this is only made possible due to the ridiculous limits on permanent resident visas vs the amount of H1-B visas, as I pointed out in this comment.:

      There is disconnect between the amount of H1-B visas (which are not limited per country) and amount of greencards (which are limited per country). We all know which country I'm talking about: the folks from India, however you may feel about their presence, are hitting this the most: For each EB category (EB1, EB2, EB3 in general), there are 265 greencards available per month. That's a little over 9500 per year. On the other side is the number of H1-B (and L-1) visa that get allocated to workers chargeable to India. Just for H1-B, that number comes close to 170,000 just for FY2012 (source [uscis.gov]). Then there are the L1 visa holders, which are uncapped.

      So, you end up having ~10k greencards, vs ~200k influx, just for India alone. This means that there is a huge waiting list for people with approved I-140s, but not eligible to file for AOS. What are you going to do with them? Sent them back? Politics chose to let them stay by renewing their H1-B every 1 to 3 years, even after the 6th year.

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    2. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Truth of the matter is, in the SF Bay Area, it is hard to be unemployed if you're a tech worker

      FTFY.

      I'm not even being facetious or trolling Slashdot for once.

      If you're even remotely presentable and capable of basic human interaction, you cannot not have a job in the Bay area, even if you're completely freaking clueless.

      We're a few glitzy and pointless trendy startups away from an 18th century press gang being formed, where random code monkeys won't be able to walk down the street for fear of being beaten over the head and dragged aboard corporate ships.

    3. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by sabri · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If you're even remotely presentable and capable of basic human interaction, you cannot not have a job in the Bay area, even if you're completely freaking clueless.

      Actually, I kind of have to agree with you here. Yesterday I had a friend over who worked in the same team as I did for a large vendor of telecommunications equipment. For years (at least 5), there was one guy who was completely and utterly useless, did not perform and could not even complete the most basic tasks by himself. I always thought he had some compromising images of his boss or something similar that prevented him from being fired.

      Turns out the guy was hired by a startup recently. I thought that would be unimaginable, but then I realized that I was mistaken. He is very well-spoken, has a nice personality and if you don't have to work with him, he is generally a good guy to have a beer with. It's just that he is useless as a tech worker IMHO. Oh, and if you read this: no offense :)

      --
      I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
    4. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      |What are you going to do with them? Sent them back?

      Yes.

    5. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by davydagger · · Score: 2

      its funny how the bosses bitch and complain forr rare instance when the system they set up doesn't work in their favor

    6. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by knightghost · · Score: 2

      I've reviewed several jobs recently and thought about moving to SF. Why didn't I? Because industry doesn't make it worth it. High rent, high hours, etc etc makes for a terrible life. Facebook wouldn't have any issue with hiring and retention if they made it worthwhile to work there.

    7. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Trepidity · · Score: 2

      It sounds like he was also recently employed, though, which is the easy case. Employers generally have absolutely no clue how to screen for competence, so go almost entirely on resume. If the person you're mentioning has 5 years of recent experience with "a large vendor of telecommunications equipment" and didn't leave because he was fired, he's got a nice resume, so won't have problems finding tech jobs.

      The people who have trouble are those who have a big gap in their employment history. Even the people who are really good at what they do have trouble finding interviews, compared to the seat-warmer who has N years of experience at a big company.

    8. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by bricko · · Score: 0

      Recently saw zuckerberg home address posted on net with invite for all illegals to congregate and live there....big yard etc.

    9. Re: Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      But if they have been here six years on H1-B why aren't they on a citizen track? Why didn't we give that job to somebody ON a citizen track like in the old days (pre-1990)

      This is the opposite side of the same coin we're discussing with Illegal Mexicans that work 60-hours of shit jobs. We cannot do without either group if we tossed them out.. But their status PREVENTS the employment laws from correcting because both groups are "second class".

    10. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These kind of people exist in practically every company, so you don't have to worry about your guy identifying your post being about him. Besides, he might not be smart enough to use a web browser :)

    11. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      First - "Bay Area" means you could be working for any number of really good, or really bad, companies. At least a quarter of them, if named, would immediately bring ridicule. If you then specified website or something else, you would be divided into the stupid or potentially stupid category.

      That said, meaning this a different thought based only slightly on that paragraph, many of those are companies where you can't just fire someone. Especially if they present themselves well.

      Imagine the court case where you say this otherwise reasonable human being is completely useless where I work. Now, prove it.

    12. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by eclectro · · Score: 4, Informative

      Truth of the matter is, in the SF Bay Area, it is hard to be unemployed if you're a properly skilled tech worker, citizen, green-card holder or otherwise.

      This is real humorous. One company offered a degreed Electrical Engineer $15 an hour in the SF Bay Area. I kid you not. (read the thread) This is not an isolated case, and I know of other examples. Why do people bother to get college degrees again??

      This is what the H1B program has bought us folks. People with degrees working for slave wages that won't even enable them to pay back their student loans. In my book, that's going backwards. It's time to stop being fooled by the H1B folly.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    13. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 2

      This is real humorous. One company offered a degreed Electrical Engineer $15 an hour in the SF Bay Area. I kid you not. (read the thread) [reddit.com] This is not an isolated case, and I know of other examples. Why do people bother to get college degrees again??

      Sounds about right for some of those questionable companies. You are missing something though, they now get to state that they couldn't get anyone to fill the position so they need to bring in an H1B worker.

      I got a similarly bad offer once for a position very similar to what I currently am doing. It was in a higher cost area yet the pay they were offering was 1/3 what I am currently making. I laughed at the recruiter that made the offer who happened to actually think that was a good amount of money for the position until I told her I already make ~3x as much and live in a much nicer lower cost area.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    14. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Draining other nations of their intellectual capital, and exploiting it domestically is how America stays compedative. We need to pull in the best and the brightest from all over the world otherwise we have to compete against them.

    15. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      agreed. I love the idea of the pay, but the entitlement mentality of san fran really turned me off. When people started literally attacking a google employee who bought a home who, had the nerve to want to live in the home he payed for. that was enough for me, I would never want to live in a place where they treat success that way

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    16. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by captjc · · Score: 1

      When I graduated college, I got something like that. I graduated with a BS in Computer Engineering from an ABET accredited college, near the top of my class. I had some projects and job experience on my resume and professor's recommendations out the ass. However, It was also during the recession, so jobs were a bit hard to come by.

      I went to one of those recruiters / contractor agencies and was in no uncertain terms told that no company would hire me (not like I had a criminal record or tattoos or anything) and that all of my skills were not only not in demand but were about 50 years obsolete (I specialized in low level system programming in C++ and programming language design). When he saw that my minimum asking salary was $30,000 a year (research showed that in my area, near the center of a major North-Eastern tech hub, the average starting salary for a Programmer / EE was between $35,000 and $45,000 a year), he laughed for about 5 minutes and told me I was horribly unrealistic.

      After I left, about 45 minutes later, I was called with a job offer scrubbing toilets at a Masonic retirement home for minimum wage. I promptly told him to to shove it but was told that, "that was about the best I was ever going to get."

      About 6 months later, I finally found a job doing systems programming on microcontrollers and robots. So fuck those recruiters.

      \CSB?

      --
      Slow Down Cowboy! It's been 1 hour, 47 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment
    17. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      We should encourage the investment that leads to Silicon Valley and its elites. Tax the crap out of the investment until it goes away, like go the hell to Texas, let them deal with the side effects. I applauded when Ellon Musk picked Nevada for Tesla's Battery Factory. We don't want the risk of pollution that would create and that means 6500 people who don't live in California. In fact, I'd like to see people leave California, and discouraging investment and job growth is one way to do that. So, encourage lots of people who don't have roots here to leave. Make it a deeper reason than just some flash-in-the-pan job to be here. We could, as a state, choose to be a no-growth, no investment, place, and that fact is that a 200 year drought might just be the ticket for that!

    18. Re:Dissolution of the middle class! by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      So, this makes me wonder if having Facebook on your resume would be a plus or a minus? I am serious about this question, you could argue that an (over) capitalized company like Facebook would have enough status so that even if you were a janitor there it would be a plus. The issue would be the company mission and its poor reputation for ethical practices. It would be arguable that someone with an interesting technical specialty might not have to face these issues, but in terms of experience, it might not be that compelling, especially if your work is close to the design of Facebook. It is like saying that you wrote the regular expression engine for Facebook's CMS. To me that is like saying that you wrote PhP for a porn site :-)

  2. Stop using Facebook by koan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There couldn't be a wrose personality to be in power than Zuckerberg.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    1. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only idiots would trust Mark "People trust me. Dumb Fucks" Fuckerberg.

    2. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      someone should have kicked his face in years ago and knocked out his confidence. that failed to happen and now he's worth billions. way to go.

    3. Re:Stop using Facebook by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There couldn't be a wrose personality to be in power than Zuckerberg.

      I dunno. Dick Cheney or Nancy Pelosi might be worse.

    4. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 2

      There couldn't be a wrose personality to be in power than Zuckerberg.

      I dunno. Dick Cheney or Nancy Pelosi might be worse.

      Dick Cheney brought us the current mess. He set the bar. W was just his sock-puppet.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    5. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too late. Zuckerberg already has his billions. Nothing you can do will make him not "in power".

      (Don't blame me, I don't just abstain from Facebook, I block it.)

    6. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can do will make him not "in power".

      The last time I checked, rich people were mortal.

    7. Re:Stop using Facebook by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Dick Cheney brought us the current mess.

      I think you'd need to be more specific regarding which mess you're talking about. We have a lot of issues at the moment.

    8. Re:Stop using Facebook by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      Nothing you can do will make him not "in power".

      The French aristocracy probably thought the same thing before the French Revolution happened. The guillotine didn't seem to care about the social status/wealth of the person whose head was chopped off.

    9. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Dick Cheney brought us the current mess. He set the bar. W was just his sock-puppet.

      Oh yeah, that makes sense. The son of a former President, former CIA Director, grandson of a U.S. Senator, and great-grandson of one of the 19th centuries rail barons was merely a sock puppet serving the interests of the son of a minor bureaucrat with the Department of Agriculture. You know, people should look at the nature of history before they start building conspiracy theories.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Too late. Zuckerberg already has his billions. Nothing you can do will make him not "in power"

      Tell that to Steve Jobs.

    11. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you in truth think Bush was the brains behind everything, I'd say there's quite a few missing links. Cheney, however, has been documented leading quite a few initiatives, such as the invasion of Iraq. His commentary after leaving office has also been revealing, as has the total lack of statements from W.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    12. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems like some people have the same idea. To you I pose two questions: 1) Really? 2) You and what army?

    13. Re:Stop using Facebook by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      I wasn't proposing anything. Merely stating that power is never permanent. History has shown this over and over.

    14. Re: Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The era was called "the terror" raise once they started chopping off heads, the Guillotine had a different master every few months.... A lot like ISIS.

    15. Re:Stop using Facebook by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      Guess which Middle Eastern country we're invading for a 3rd time because it's finally blown up into a situation that would be bad to persist...

    16. Re:Stop using Facebook by CyprusBlue113 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dick Cheney brought us the current mess. He set the bar. W was just his sock-puppet.

      Oh yeah, that makes sense. The son of a former President, former CIA Director, grandson of a U.S. Senator, and great-grandson of one of the 19th centuries rail barons was merely a sock puppet serving the interests of the son of a minor bureaucrat with the Department of Agriculture. You know, people should look at the nature of history before they start building conspiracy theories.

      Every family has their dumbass.

      --
      a handful of selfish greedy people are no match for millions of selfish, greedy people -u4ya
    17. Re:Stop using Facebook by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2

      ..., as has the total lack of statements from W.

      Other than Carter, and lately Clinton, former presidents never made comments on policies after they left office. They had their time calling the shots, and now it's someone else's turn. W is doing what we should expect from people who are no longer in charge. He's keeping his mouth shut and letting the current team run the show.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    18. Re:Stop using Facebook by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 2

      Too late. Zuckerberg already has his billions. Nothing you can do will make him not "in power"

      Tell that to Steve Jobs.

      I can't because he died.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    19. Re:Stop using Facebook by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... invading for a 3rd time ...

      First time around, it wasn't invaded, just bombed back to the stone-age. Which seemed to be an effective punishment for pissing-off a lot of people. Although a number of said people only cared about Kuwait after it was invaded. Then some rich Americans got greedy and tried to recreate 1960s Iraq plus democracy.

    20. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      You miss the point. There is no way that Dick Cheney was pulling George W. Bush's strings. While it is possible that George W. Bush chose to uniformly follow Dick Cheney's advice, it was still merely advice that Dick Cheney had no ability to force him to follow. The real problem with considering Dick Cheney as the power behind George W. Bush is that Dick Cheney was nowhere to be found around W. while he was governor of Texas.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    21. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      That's hilarious. You realize, as governor, he had little power, and accomplished little. He was also governor in a state that at the time was almost uniformly red.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    22. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      In what way would that change the fact that if someone was controlling George W. Bush, they would have had to be controlling him all along? It's not as if the son of a former President/Director of the CIA, grandson of a Senator, and great grandson of a railroad baron would have NEEDED Dick Cheney to get to the White House. If you are inclined to believe in conspiracy theories it makes more sense to think that Dick Cheney served as a "House retainer" to George W. Bush than that George W. Bush was controlled by, and subservient to, Dick Cheney.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    23. Re:Stop using Facebook by Christian+Smith · · Score: 1

      Dick Cheney brought us the current mess. He set the bar. W was just his sock-puppet.

      Oh yeah, that makes sense. The son of a former President, former CIA Director, grandson of a U.S. Senator, and great-grandson of one of the 19th centuries rail barons was merely a sock puppet serving the interests of the son of a minor bureaucrat with the Department of Agriculture. You know, people should look at the nature of history before they start building conspiracy theories.

      This son of a bastard nobody changed millions of lives with war.

      If you think "stock" makes people great or powerful, then you're no better than all the various monarchies overthrown in the last few hundred years. Nepotism only goes so far.

    24. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you did not notice, but he was the front man as well. It is believable that someone rises from nowhere to great power. It is believable that the son of a powerful family stays in the background and controls someone who has risen from nowhere to a position of great power. It is even believable that someone from nowhere might become attached to the son of a powerful family early on and exert control over him as he rises to a position of prominence. What is not believable is that a person from nowhere might take control over the son of a powerful family, just as that son completes his acquisition of a position of power, especially not when that son spent time before that being groomed/grooming himself for that position (being the popular governor of one of the most populous states counts as being groomed to be President).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    25. Re: Stop using Facebook by n1ywb · · Score: 1

      That's the point. Guillotine don't care. Guillotine doesn't give a shit.

      --
      -73, de n1ywb
      www.n1ywb.com
    26. Re:Stop using Facebook by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Ok, so the whole stupid thing could've been an act, a ploy to get voter sympathy. But it's a well known fact that Cheney and Rove are both incredibly brilliant people, and there is plenty of evidence and testimony to point out that Cheney and Rove were behind a lot of the things Bush backed and the Bush administration as a whole did.

      If Bush did not explicitly sign off on many of these things, at the very least, he was complacent and, not being in control of his own people, weak.

      And I think considering all things, the latter is more likely than the former. And to be fair, you can say the same about Obama. Filling your ranks with 'yes men' who leech off your popularity on good days and point fingers on bad days is much the same as filling your ranks with people who ignore your presence and act of their own volition. Nothing good can come of it.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    27. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      If you think someone other than W. was calling the shots while he was President (which is different than saying he was the brains behind everything), then you do not understand how politics work.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    28. Re:Stop using Facebook by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      What is not believable is that a person from nowhere might take control over the son of a powerful family, just as that son completes his acquisition of a position of power

      Piers Gaveston. Elisabeth Woodville. Hans Hermann von Katte. And, at a stretch, Rasputin.

      If someone speaks persuasively, flatters you and tells you what you want to hear are you really going to tell them to STFU because their family tree doesn't check out? Bollocks.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    29. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Name some vice presidents who haven't kept their mouths shut, and then name one that's been as vocal as Cheney.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    30. Re:Stop using Facebook by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Piers Gaveston and Hans Hermann Von Katte were influential in the lives of the prominent men BEFORE they rose to power, and the information on Elisabeth Woodville fails to suggest that she pulled Edward the IV strings, merely that her family profited from her relationship with him causing a rift with another courtier who desired those profits for himself or his allies. in additon, Elisabeth Woodville had an ability to influence Edward IV that was not open to Cheney.
      So, once again, if Dick Cheney had been at W.'s side while he was governor of Texas, it might be believable that he was pulling W.'s strings, but since Cheney did not become part of W.'s inner circle until after he was well on his way to power, it is not.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    31. Re:Stop using Facebook by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      The comment was about George W. Bush. He was President. Since leaving that office, he has pretty much kept his mouth shut on the affairs of the current administration.

      That is how former presidents should act. And former vice-presidents as well, unless they are hoping to get on the next ballot.

      I wish Cheney would shut up and fade away. But in this new 24-hour news culture, he fills a time slot, and has the beloved 'insider information' that news people drool over.

      But, hey, at least he didn't make a propaganda movie to kick off a fund raising campaign to fill his vault/swimming pool with gold coins. He left that spectacle to Al "McDuck" Gore.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    32. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      The comment is actually about Bush essentially being Cheney's (and Karl Rove's / GOP's) sock puppet. You argue by blatant assertions that Bush wasn't a sock puppet. Nothing you've stated leads anyone to the conclusion that he wasn't, and your admission about Cheney's activities can only mean you agree to at least some extent that he is active in those areas of interest.

      I do agree with you that all presidents and vice presidents should in general leave the leading to others after they're out of office. They had their turn. In the case of Bush/Cheney, their screwups are going to be with us through at least 1 more administration, and I would hazard several more.

      Lastly, Cheney didn't need to fill up his overflowing vault/swimming pool - and he's mostly likely still reaping Halliburton rewards.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    33. Re:Stop using Facebook by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Although I don't think Bush 43 was a sock puppet, I didn't touch on that at all. Nothing I would say will convince anyone to change their mind either way. Such is the nature of this topic.

      And of course every president's actions have long lasting consequences. There are people who blame current air travel delays on Reagan's firing the air traffic controllers, and that was 30 years ago. Others blame the housing bubble/collapse on Carter.

      While Cheney may have a full vault, you did ask for another vice-president that was making as much noise as he is. You can't get bigger than a full length film, with a TV channel to top it off.

      But at least we do agree on former leaders keeping their thoughts to themselves after leaving office. My high school history teacher gave us that outlook, back in the late 80s. Basically, he was surprised that Carter was making public statements about how Reagan and Bush 41 "should be doing things". Even though my teacher was a liberal/democrat, he explained that that behavior was quite unusual, to the point of impropriety.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    34. Re:Stop using Facebook by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      And of course every president's actions have long lasting consequences. There are people who blame current air travel delays on Reagan's firing the air traffic controllers, and that was 30 years ago. Others blame the housing bubble/collapse on Carter.

      All presidents, if they stay in office long enough, make bad decisions. The question is whether those bad decisions outweigh their good ones when considering whether they were bad presidents. Some made very few good decisions (defined as something you chose to do in spite of the current popular opinion to improve things) and many bad decisions (whether going with popular opinion or acting on their own). Deciding to go to war with the Taliban - was there another option? Deciding to invade Iraq? Plenty of other options on that one. Carter leaving the American hostages in Iran for 400 days? That one resulted in a 1 term presidency for him. Reagan pushing for deregulation? Both good and bad points on that one, and I'd argue mostly bad from the ones that had major negative impacts such as the 2008 financial collapse, although that was not solely his fault, he started the avalanche with a healthy couple of kicks.

      While Cheney may have a full vault, you did ask for another vice-president that was making as much noise as he is. You can't get bigger than a full length film, with a TV channel to top it off.

      In the case of Gore, he was promoting something new at the time, not criticizing the current government operations. That he's moved to that stance is indisputable, as he certainly has continued to make waves over time and tried to move the gov into a stance more to his liking. In some ways, that's the same as Cheney, in others, very very different.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  3. Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I hereby award you Most Unreadable News Snippet Award. Bravo.

    1. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by pepty · · Score: 1

      Seconded.

    2. Re: Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thirded, incomprehensible.

    3. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Potor · · Score: 1

      Fourthed.

    4. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and thirded. It might read well coming from a tech-oriented TV program, but it doesn't read well when you actually read it. The language used obscures rather than educates and informs.

    5. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by synthesizerpatel · · Score: 1

      MOD PARENT +INFINITY AWESOME

    6. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely nonsensical. Unable to parse.

    7. Re:Dafuq wrote this snippet? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      The language used obscures rather than educates and informs.

      Sounds like another big win for Marketing.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  4. Most transparent ever? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "His [Schulte's] prior experience as Chief-of-Staff at Priorities USA, the Super PAC supporting President Obama's re-election," assured Zuckerberg in a letter to FWD.us contributors, "will ensure FWD.us continues its momentum for reform."

    But, how is this possible? I thought Obama banned his team from becoming lobbyists after they left him???

    I guess that rule doesn't apply to everyone. Good thing we have the most transparent administration ever and these lobbying efforts won't influence anyone...

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    1. Re:Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      "His [Schulte's] prior experience as Chief-of-Staff at Priorities USA, the Super PAC supporting President Obama's re-election," assured Zuckerberg in a letter to FWD.us contributors, "will ensure FWD.us continues its momentum for reform."

      But, how is this possible? I thought Obama banned his team from becoming lobbyists after they left him???

      I guess that rule doesn't apply to everyone. Good thing we have the most transparent administration ever and these lobbying efforts won't influence anyone...

      Super PACs are run independent from individual campaigns and are not allowed to coordinate with candidates. So he wasn't part of Obama's staff, in theory...

    2. Re:Most transparent ever? by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 2

      I'm sure his press secretary would argue that was more of an aspirational statement. And that it was necessitated by Republican inaction.

    3. Re:Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know anything mentioning Obama makes people like you foam at the mouth, but since this guy was the Chief-of-Staff of a SUPER PAC and therefore not one of President Obama's aides, you may wish to stop before someone assumes you have rabies.

    4. Re:Most transparent ever? by _xeno_ · · Score: 0

      I know anything mentioning Obama makes people like you foam at the mouth, but since this guy was the Chief-of-Staff of a SUPER PAC and therefore not one of President Obama's aides

      And if you honestly believe that, you may just be on Obamacare!

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
    5. Re:Most transparent ever? by silfen · · Score: 0

      Super PACs are run independent from individual campaigns and are not allowed to coordinate with candidates. So he wasn't part of Obama's staff, in theory...

      It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is anyway.

    6. Re:Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better than being bankrupted trying to save yourself from major illness.

    7. Re:Most transparent ever? by Mashiki · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And if you honestly believe that, you may just be on Obamacare!

      Don't worry, your rates aren't going to go up AND you can keep your doctor too.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    8. Re:Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How dare you bring your silly "facts" into this thread.

    9. Re: Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Our rates went down from $1500/mo to $1300/mo for a family of 5 with medical, dental, vision, and prescription coverage. We're in Maryland and ages are 34, 34, 4, 3, and 3. We kept all of our doctors.

    10. Re: Most transparent ever? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      Our rates went down from $1500/mo to $1300/mo for a family of 5 with medical, dental, vision, and prescription coverage. We're in Maryland and ages are 34, 34, 4, 3, and 3. We kept all of our doctors.

      Oops. Missed one.

      That's OK, we'll check on you next year as you re enroll. We've had some problems with our computer systems keeping up but we're working on it....

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re:Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trying googling "scott walker club for growth politically protected speech" for a good time.

    12. Re: Most transparent ever? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to act as if insurance companies never raised rates year-over-year before Obamacare. You're not that dumb are you?

    13. Re: Most transparent ever? by Patent+Lover · · Score: 1

      Said the dude living in his parents' basement.

  5. This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What this boils down to is we've got a company propped up on nothing more than hot air and advertising that has to lowball the market in order to keep their ill-gotten goods. Keep in mind Zuckerbergs billions came from people investing in his company, it didn't come from actual sales of a product. Of course the man is a scam artist.

    1: To have Americans work on critical projects and not spill the beans to your competition, you need a NDA and non-compete agreement, both if which you pay American workers a premium for. With H1B's, you don't.

    2: When you hire a college grad with a school loan, you're paying their them to be educated irregardless if you like it or not.

    3: This is about wage arbitrage; whenever you sell products made in a slave wage state to a free state, you are in effect consuming the margin the labor pool in that free state would otherwise make to, and here's the key guys, put the cash in your pocket, you aren't doing a god damn thing for the world. There aren't more engineers, or better educated engineers, or better products, or better designed products, or better manufacturing and construction methodology. Do that enough and you destabilize the government like in Russia, and that one led to millions of deaths from the Russian Mob selling of arms, including nukes, to foreign countries.

    4: What are you doing, Zuckerberg, to motivate Americans to work hard? Because at the end of the day, if you aren't sharing the profits and are just exploiting you, Americans will destroy your business. Mexicans do the same thing nowadays, and the Indians, well, they aren't much better.

    1. Re:This debate is about money. by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Informative

      1: To have Americans work on critical projects and not spill the beans to your competition, you need a NDA and non-compete agreement, both if which you pay American workers a premium for. With H1B's, you don't.

      Well, Facebook is located in California where non-competes are not legally enforceable, so there's that

    2. Re:This debate is about money. by Berkyjay · · Score: 2

      It's "regardless". When you say "irregardless" I can't take what you say seriously, no matter how correct you may be.

    3. Re:This debate is about money. by mrbester · · Score: 1

      Or use the word "irrespective". Not this gestalt abomination of the two. But then, people think "learnings" is a real word as well, when it was made up by Sasha Baron Cohen for his broken English speaking character Borat.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    4. Re:This debate is about money. by pepty · · Score: 5, Insightful

      How to fix the H1-B problem:

      1. Keep the process of sponsoring H1-Bs roughly the same, but slightly more expensive.

      2. Once the recruit has the visa, he can work wherever he wants. The paperwork is the same whether he stays with his sponsor, goes to their biggest competitor, or goes to work at a coffee cart.

      3. Ban the other legal shenanigans that would quickly ensue in attempts to lock the visa to the sponsoring company.

      If the sponsor wants the worker to stay, they will have to pay them a high enough rate to keep them there.

    5. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      2. Once the recruit has the visa, he can work wherever he wants. The paperwork is the same whether he stays with his sponsor, goes to their biggest competitor, or goes to work at a coffee cart.

      The billionaires and multinational corps would never allow that. H1-B is purposeful wage slavery.

    6. Re:This debate is about money. by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 2

      Exactly. So to get around this loophole they want to hire H1B workers that they can just send back to their home country after they're done exploiting them.

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
    7. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think he was the first person to conjure the word then you need some "learnings" too :)

    8. Re:This debate is about money. by mjwalshe · · Score: 2

      I think making h1-B direct employment only no third party body shops - might cut down a lot of the abuses

    9. Re:This debate is about money. by whoever57 · · Score: 2

      My neigbor is an H1-B1 alien. He has changed jobs two or three times since moving to the USA. It's clearly possble. In fact, I changed jobs myself while on an H1-B1 visa.

      The lock-in occurs when the H1-B alien wants to apply for a green card.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    10. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oh come now. "flammable" and "inflammable" mean the same thing :)

    11. Re:This debate is about money. by Guest316 · · Score: 3, Funny

      It's antinonunirregardless. Jeez, where do you people learn English?

    12. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      As an H-1b myself, I often find Americans not well-informed enough on this issue..
      1) is what congress has been doing over time: imposing random additional fees, especially on large H-1b employers.
      2) has always been true. H-1b workers can change employers very easily, as long as there is no gap between employment. In fact, transfering H-1b is cheaper (and less legal hassle) than applying for a new H-1b. The real obstacle is the jump from H-1b to green card. This could take 2-9 years depending on the country of origin. During this time, switching jobs is difficult. And I don't think this congress could pass any serious reform to address this..

      Speaking of H-1b alone, I think the biggest problem is the lack of prioritization. There's no way anyone in the system can say: US wants this senior developer more badly than that helpdesk worker. A simple auction system might work nicely, but still, I won't hold my breath for any meaningful change.

    13. Re:This debate is about money. by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Really? That's the one word you had problems with? All the mangled sentences are perfectly fine, but he uses one non-standard (by your reckoning) word, and his whole rambling post is to be ignored?

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    14. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #2 is the crux of the issue. The vast majority of compensation increases come from moving from job to job at a different employer. On H1B that is looking to become GC holder this is a nightmare. It is wage suppression on a mass scale, and it is unfair to the visa holders and natives, it only benefits shareholders.

    15. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How to fix the H1-B problem:

      An easy fix. Enforce that all H1-B visa holders be paid $500,000 U.S. minimum, and can leave the company at any time. That will show the true value of the program.

    16. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? "irrespective" is an actual, dictionary-entry word.

    17. Re:This debate is about money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can eliminate all caps on H1B visas. Just require employers pay H1B workers at least 10% more than the prevailing wage in the region. If these workers are really that talented and critical, then business should be fine with paying them more on average than they pay Americans. Then we will find out how many are actually essential.

    18. Re:This debate is about money. by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind Zuckerbergs billions came from people investing in his company, it didn't come from actual sales of a product.

      Initially, but (sad to say) facebook's revenue - and growth - are actually enormous.

    19. Re:This debate is about money. by Vesvvi · · Score: 1

      H1B are allowed to get new employment within their area of expertise. I've seen a lot of this with H1B employees exiting our workplace: the only problem is they can't take a temporary position doing something menial while they look for a new job at a different company.

    20. Re:This debate is about money. by Vesvvi · · Score: 1

      Going to the competitor is allowed, the coffee cart isn't.
      http://www.h1base.com/visa/wor...

    21. Re:This debate is about money. by NewYork · · Score: 1

      Isn't it Green card?

  6. Get what you pay for by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or not, in this case.

    The group had tens of millions of dollars at its disposal to work on this issue that is critical to the tech community and has come up with, well, peanuts.
    http://recode.net/2014/09/19/joe-green-out-at-fwd-us/

    All that money to brib, er, dispose of, and still no results from Congress, or the President. Billionaires sad :(

  7. Fuckers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They pay a stipend (aka low pay) to all the advocacy fellows in their job section. Clearly, they mean Fwd.us = MoneyFor.us

  8. Tech Immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are trying for straight up amnesty for everyone here illegally. Hell, we're importing illegals from Guatemala and points south and advertising for them to come here. Tech workers? We're going to end up cutting out the low end of the work force, too.

    1. Re: Tech Immigration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't remember who said it but:

      "You can't solve first-world problems by importing third-world workers--you'll just end up with third-world problems."

  9. Fuck Zuckerberg by Troy+Roberts · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sort of OK? Fuck you Mark, you degenerate piece of shit!

    1. Re:Fuck Zuckerberg by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      You got that all wrong - Mark was talking from his own personal experience, he's sort of OK...

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    2. Re:Fuck Zuckerberg by Troy+Roberts · · Score: 1

      LOL OK, I will agree with that. Having worked with plenty of H-1Bs, I can assure you that there posses no special talent compared to other workers. On the whole there are quite a few mediocre software engineers.

    3. Re:Fuck Zuckerberg by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They posses a special talent: Taking lower pay.

  10. Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Zuckerberg is also a traitor to the American tech worker.

    Hey, Mark, MSFT just laid off 18,000 people; Cisco just laid off a bunch; MSFT just the other day closed its research center right down the street from you - filled with gifted coders and brilliance. Mark, there is a MOUND of studies showing NO shortage of STEM works in the US.

    Some facts: The H-1B fiasco has cost Americans **$10TRILLION** dollars, since 1975. For anyone who wants to know the truth, read on.

    One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem http://www.cringely.com/2012/1... Here's an attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    H1-B abuse if accompanied by other worker-visa abuse L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg). There are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas. http://economyincrisis.org/con...

    Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on this problem. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...

    Federal offshoring of healthcare.gov website http://www.economicpopulist.or...

    How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers http://www.motherjones.com/pol...

    There is no stem worker crisis in America http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-wo...

    Marc Zuckerberg and wealthy tech scions continue to perpetuate this trend http://programmersguild.org/do...

    Yahoo http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs...

    Also, little known is the tactic of creating many different kinds of sub-visa categories to "fool the system". There are almost TWENTY different kinds of work visas. The whole thing is a sham and a lie, designed to drag down wages and keep from having to re-train Americans. Never thought I would see this day!

    Some of the information presented in the following links will shock most Americans, because American corporate leaders don't want us to know the truth, and they are paying off policy makers with contributions to keep the truth from us. Bill Gates, John Chambers, Mark Zuckerberg, Eric Schmidt, and many, many others - including the principals of the most prominent immigration law firms, who profit from this outrage, are lying through their teeth. There is NO shortage of STEM workers in the US!!

    Last, Zuckerberg has all out lied since day 1 about guaranteeing privacy on Facebook - just outright lied. Facebook has become something that teens shun and will soon go the way of MSFT, run by another deceiver, Bill Gates, on the H1-B issue.

    1. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I am an immigrant working in US on H1-B. Every time I see these stories, I know what comments there will be, but I'm getting tired of all the whining and bullshit.

      First of all, on the "poor underpayed H1-B" myth. I live and work in Seattle metro area. My base pay is $150k, and then another $40k on top of that in bonuses. This is after being with the company I'm at for slightly over 3 years. And I work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, none of those crazy 60-hour work weeks. I have a fancy house, drive an expensive car, and even after mortage, property tax etc have enough left to support my family by myself, allowing my wife (an American citizen, by the way) to be a stay at home mom - and even then still have some left for my 401k and other savings. To sum it up, as an H1-B I live better than 9 out of 10 Americans do even here in Seattle, much less across the country.

      Now you guys say two things. First, that I'm "stealing your job". I'll be blunt: in the current IT job market, if you can't find a job, then either you are living in the wrong place, or (if you're in one of the tech hubs), you plain suck. I know some people hit by Microsoft layoffs: they were immediately snagged by Google and Amazon. It's a seller's market: a good developer today in US can walk out of the door and literally find a job elsewhere tomorrow. If you can't find a job, that's not because some H1-B "stole" it. It's because you're not good enough, and your expectations are too high.

      Speaking of expectations. One other thing that's often brought up is that H1-Bs "depress the wage" - as in, if we weren't here, you'd be paid more. Is that so? Well yes, of course it is, artificial scarcity (of labor, in this case) raises prices. But why do you believe you're entitled to even higher wages? You can certainly get the same wage as I do (if you're as good as I am) - and that gives you an extremely comfortable life, compared to vast majority of your fellow countrymen. With some prudent fiscal planning and the right investments, you can retire at 65 with over a million in the bank, and a house that you fully own - a luxury that most cannot even dream of.

      Yet you still have an audacity to complain that it's too little? You think you deserve more? But you don't have a determination to actually go and make yourself better to achieve that, no. You want someone else to stop competing with you so that you can just have it.

      You are sour whiners and losers, and that's why I can "steal" your job, and will keep on "stealing" it, while you will inhabiting your mom's basement, while posting inane ramblings on Slashdot about how you're being repressed by all those filthy smelly foreigners.

    2. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Post of the month.

      I've long been amused at how quick /. posters are to offer scorn and insulting advice to the executives and workers in other industries (journalism, music, publishing, retail; education and autos are coming in fast) that have been disrupted by the Internet and digital technology. You were greedy and incompetent and you deserved what you got, says they. Information wants to be free, and Masnick from Techdirt says the more you complain about it the sillier you look, like Barbara Streisand. Grow up and be a man.

      But when it comes to the disruptions the the Internet is causing to IT jobs, well that's different. NOW the Federal government needs to step in and protect the US workers... isn't that the whole point of having elected represented in the first place?

      Hey guys, look. It's exactly the same thing. Why should US IT workers get protection that those in journalism, music, publishing, and retail didn't get?

    3. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are some problems you ignored. First is that the industry claims there is a "shortage" to justify high quantities of H1B's. There is no evidence of a general shortage, only spot shortages, which are necessary for those with glut skills to be accepted into new-trend skills.

      Second, is that during IT recessions they don't shut off the H1B spigot: visa workers keep coming. IT has been booming and busting since at least the 80's and I see no reason this pattern will change.

      And I have seen H1B workers being abused. Your example is only a spot sample.

      In general, the industry wants "instant employees" rather than spend time and money on training. This means that if a US techie loses their job in a glut area, they cannot get retraining for the new area because the company will hire an H1B worker that already has experience. The citizen can read books etc., but companies prefer existing paid experience.

      Companies just want what they want when they want it and don't want to pay anything inconvenient for these goals.

      Regardless of whether there are some H1B abuse myths floating around, the whole premise is based on a lie.

    4. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by david.emery · · Score: 4, Informative

      Mod parent up, please. In particular, the comment about industry being unwilling to invest in training is spot-on. I'm old enough to remember when it wasn't that way. (Example, how many remember getting training in Ada if you worked in the defense industry? Regardless of what you think of the language, 25-30 years ago that industry was willing to invest in its "human capital." )

      dave

    5. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We were talking about H1-Bs in Facebook, no? Are you aware of documented examples of the abuse of H1-B employees there? All I hear are horror stories about Indian sweatshops where people work for 70 hours a week for a measly $60k pay, and are shipped back to India at the end of their visa term. I don't see any reason not to believe them, but what do they have to do with Facebook, specifically?

      Speaking of getting experience and training. Do you know how much of my knowledge and skillset comes from training on the job? Exactly none. I don't have a degree, either. What I learned, I learned from books and newsgroups, and from applying all that in the real world. Yes, that won't get you hired on a high-paying job right away. You have to start as a junior, and suck it up when they offer you low pay initially. If you're good, and if your employer is good at people, you'll rise fast.

      And retraining? If you don't keep up with the market trends all the time, and study new tech - yes, even when you have a "stable" job - you're being extremely irresponsible. This is the industry where the landscape can change entirely in less than 10 years. If you want to remain in it, you have to respect that and plan and self-educate accordingly. If you cannot or do not want to keep up, it's not the industry for you. Alternatively, you can learn some paleolithic tech that has low but constant demand because a lot of stuff is made with it, and its lifecycle is 30+ years - like COBOL. That's the ultimate job security where you won't have to retrain until retirement. It's also boring as hell, but hey, it's a choice.

    6. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your whole post starts by muddying the waters and trying to paint anti-H1B as anti immigrant. Why should I keep reading past the first sentence?

      I am an immigrant working in US on H1-B.

      immigrant: a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country

      H-1B visa: The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows U.S. employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations.

    7. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sez a typical MBA douchebag.

    8. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 1

      Never mind all that, who's the gorgeous woman on Cringely's page?

      --
      Mostly random stuff.
    9. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, and I came to live permanently in US. I very much intend to stay.

      H1-B is a dual intent visa, which means that the person on it can also apply for the green card while working. In particular, his employer can sponsor such an application. Unless you have relatives in US, that's the easiest way to get green card and eventually citizenship, and H1-B is a requisite step in that process, regardless of what its description says.

    10. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      shill

    11. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by nleven · · Score: 1

      You are assuming those 18000 folks laid off by MSFT are mainly US tech workers... which is very wrong...

    12. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go buy a book on Amazon and read it. Take a free online course. Ask some questions on StackOverflow. What's so special about corporate-funded training, except for being super expensive?

      Corporate experience with a specific technology is something that can go on your resume. Having a Safari Books subscription is not, and HR doesn't give a flying fuck about what you learned on your own time, regardless of how competent you may have become.

    13. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I started laughing when you described that arsewipe Cringely as a "most respected tech pundit". Needless to say, I didn't bother to read the rest.

    14. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      entitled

      I'm very curious; is there anyone on slashdot who doesn't see the misuse of the word (PROTIP: fucking look up the definition sometime, instead of mindlessly parroting the word) and immediately write off the poster as a shill?

    15. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by xvent · · Score: 0

      Cuz fuck you raghead. We don't want you here. It's as simple as that.

      You're a fucking moocher. This whole tech thing is an American invention. If you're so fucking smart why don't you create Indian Facebook or something?

    16. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by xvent · · Score: 0

      Cuz of smelly ragheads that's why. Internet disruption is not the same thing as open immigration. You're comparing car analogies with oranges.

    17. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by metlin · · Score: 3, Informative

      H-1B visa: The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa

      H1B is called a non-immigrant visa because you cannot use *that* visa to immigrate.

      However, H1B is also recognized as a dual-intent visa.

      That's why you can file for your green card while you're on an H1B, through your employer.

      There are many visas that are non-immigrant visas that are dual intent because the visa in itself doesn't grant you the right to become an immigrant, but is used to file for a change of intent.

    18. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In general, the industry wants "instant employees" rather than spend time and money on training.

      If you owned the company, wouldn't you want the same? Why would you be expected to hire someone who doesn't know how to do the job and then train them? You're running a business, not a university.

      The citizen can read books etc., but companies prefer existing paid experience.

      All you need to do is put "expert in " and you will get past the HR screen in 90% of the companies. Then it's up to you to show that you are, it doesn't matter how you got the knowledge.

    19. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am an immigrant working in US on H1-B..... I have a fancy house, drive an expensive car, and even after mortage, property tax etc have enough left to support my family by myself, allowing my wife (an American citizen, by the way) to be a stay at home mom

      Your job wasn't enough --- you had to steal one of our women too? You Bastard!

      :-)

    20. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I call bullshit on your post. Your English is too good and very "Americanized" for a 3yr immigrant. Also, married to an American and still on an H1-B? How does that work? Exactly what country are you from anyway?

    21. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      entitled

      I'm very curious; is there anyone on slashdot who doesn't see the misuse of the word (PROTIP: fucking look up the definition sometime, instead of mindlessly parroting the word) and immediately write off the poster as a shill?

      If you have the law on your side, but not the facts, argue the law.

      If you have the facts on your side, but not the law, argue the facts.

      If you have neither on your side, rip apart their spelling and grammar.

    22. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by ranton · · Score: 5, Informative

      First of all, on the "poor underpayed H1-B" myth. I live and work in Seattle metro area. My base pay is $150k, and then another $40k on top of that in bonuses.

      First off, individual salaries of very highly skilled H-1B visa holders does nothing to undermine the "poor underpaid H-1B" myth. Does the fact there is a black president mean there is absolutely no discrimination left in the US?

      According to the Center for Immigration Studies, H-1B Visa holders in the computer industry make on average $13k less per year than a citizen. In addition to that, 85% of H-1B workers work for less than the median wage for their occupation. Looks like you are not the norm.

      Just because you are one of the few H-1B workers that almost all US citizens would agree we want to immigrate here does nothing to disprove the fact that H-1B workers depress wages by flooding the market with underpaid workers.

      Every time I see these stories, I know what comments there will be, but I'm getting tired of all the whining and bullshit.

      The sad thing is when anyone complains about H-1B workers they are almost immediately accused of xenophobia and/or labeled as whining. I hate our H-1B system, but only because of how unfairly it treats H-1B workers. I am a consultant and I work with many of these immigrants. I am appalled at how horrible the system is that they describe. If we had a properly functioning H-1B program, instead of the indentured servitude it usually consists of, I would bet that H-1B workers would make above median wages.

      If they weren't just an exploited group (in the vast majority of cases), companies would only bring over the best and the brightest. And this would be wonderful.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    23. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This seems totally legit and not at all a shill.

    24. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very well said. My situation, and pretty much every other H1-B I know is the same as yours. We came here because the companies we work for couldn't find anybody local to fill the role, and had to pay the premium -- in both higher salary, relocation costs, legal fees for the visa, etc. to get us here.

      On the other hand, the anti-visa movement is either really good at making stuff up, or there really is some kind of abuse going on in *some* companies out there.

      The shitty thing is that that kind of abuse is making the bringing the general opinion of H1-Bs down, making it unlikely that the "path to citizenship" problem will ever be solved. We're going to continue to have hundreds of thousands of temporary workers in the country that can't switch jobs and have to take whatever they get for years and years.

      Bringing H1-Bs in and making them permanent residents within a year would make many of these problems go away... The top talent will be more likely to come and stay in US, and companies that abuse the system will be less likely to invest the money into bringing somebody in who can leave the job a year later and go work at a better place.

    25. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your wife is an American citizen, why are you still on an H1B? Shouldn't you have adjusted status yet? If you were that smart, you'd have been sure that you are enjoying the benefits of permanent status. But you're not, so you haven't. So if your job goes south, then you're going to spend months trying to get everything fixed and you won't be in status (ie. unable to get a job).

      Dumb AND arrogant. Fail.

    26. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Pulzar · · Score: 1

      Your English is too good and very "Americanized" for a 3yr immigrant.

      That's an awesome observation. Except for the fact that English is the main language of several other countries, one of the big ones being just north of you.

      --
      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
    27. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by davydagger · · Score: 1

      >Never thought I would see this day!

      you should have saw it when they started shipping skilled labor overseas, and the collapse of GM, and stateside manufacture. We were all fools to think we are any really diffrent than the other workers. In arrogance we threw them under the bus.

      Its time for US to unionize and fight back.

    28. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by davydagger · · Score: 1

      Siding with the bosses isn't going to make you many friends. Don't cry oppression when you've sided with the capitalists.

    29. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just married, and paperwork takes time. Don't worry about me, I can do my homework.

    30. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 3, Informative

      Have you read the link in this comment? It suggests that your experience is atypical.

      It is also outdated. However, there have been a lot of reports similar to this one, and only a few individuals like you stating the opposite.

      Is it remotely possible that you have an above-average experience?

      http://politics.slashdot.org/c...

    31. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why shouldn't I side with capitalists if they pay me fairly for the work that I do?

      And where did you see me cry oppression? Just pointing out the stupid, is all. Me, I'm very happy with my place in life, and certainly not feeling oppressed in the slightest. I only wish more people could have the same.

    32. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, in other words, yep, you're someone who doesn't see the misuse of the word.

    33. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Moocher? Heh. So, how much do you earn, kiddo?

      Because I'm so fucking smart, I know where the best place to earn money is, and it's right here in the 'States. It amazes me that so many of you Americans don't realize just what a land of opportunity ripe for the taking it really is here. And then you complain when other people see it as well, and come and take it. Well duh, of course we will, if so many of you are slobs who won't move a finger to pick it up, because it's just not big enough for you. Well, can't have it wasted like that, it'd be a crying shame.

      You don't want me here? Well I'm here to stay, so fuck you right back, and learn to enjoy the sight of that rag, cuz you'll be seeing it around a lot. My kids will stay here, too, and they'll get a nice education, and eventually a nice job, too - probably better than yours, if your whining is any indication of how much of a loser you are. Which sucks for your kids, so my condolences there - they don't have to grow up losers, but you aren't helping.

      I suppose eventually, my grandkids or great-grandkids will forget what made them American in the first place, and think that they're here because they deserve to be here, by virtue of who their parents are, rather than what they are, and what they do. And then some other immigrants will come and steal their jobs, too, while they'll be bitching about how it's unfair. Which is all well and good - competition keeps the species healthy.

    34. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Not only are you hiding facts, but attempting to offend as many people as possible in your fairy tale. I smell a big fat shill, but perhaps you are just trolling. Either way, claiming that the exception is the rule is asinine.

      Most H1B workers are not making the same wage as Americans, but the wage is only a portion of the argument. Not even the right portion mind you.

      The primary point is that Visa workers do take jobs from Citizens. That is not a question, that is a statement of fact. Citizens of any country should have priority in jobs in their own country. In fact all other countries in the world prioritizes their citizens over foreigners. They need to do so or their society begins to crumble like we have seen happening in the US for decades. (Don't "but but but" look at Wealth distribution in the US over the last 4 decades, look at median household income, and middle class wealth overall.).

      A whole lot of a Visa workers treatment depends on where they are from (in addition to obviously who they are working for). I have seen both good and bad in Silicon valley, mostly good but the bad is very bad. Chinese workers with no chance of becoming a citizen seem to get the poor treatment. Indian and Russians that have a chance at citizenship seem to do well.

      While I'm glad that you claim to be an exception to the rule, there are plenty of Visa workers that are not paid better than average and do have the visa hung over their head. You having an American spouse changes the equation quite a bit, and having children with that same spouse changes the equation drastically. I'm also guessing that you applied for citizenship. Interesting how you ignore those important facts, and go right to the insults and ad hominem. Hence, my statement that you are either a troll, or a shill. Most likely the latter.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    35. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Electricity+Likes+Me · · Score: 1

      It actually counts on your resume?

      Seriously, you cannot get in the god damn door if you don't have paid experience in the exact area they're looking for. No one cares if you read a book. What does that say on your resume? "Familiar with ".

      Any idiot can put that on a resume, everyone does, but they can't put it in their paid experience column which is the one which matters.

    36. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I heard there's this thing called "Internet", where you can go and talk to foreign people in their languages. Why, if you do it early enough, you can build up quite a vocabulary early on, and pick up some idioms to boot. Watching American TV shows without subtitles also helps a lot.

      And it takes a few months after marriage to get that green card, even if you file right away.

      As for the country, I don't want to spill the beans just yet. I want to see what colorful epithets I'll get from this thread first. I've got "raghead" so far, but that's so predictable and boring - surely people can be more creative than that! Maybe someone can actually figure out the origin from all the little mistakes and weird turns of phrase that inevitably creep into my English.

      Oh, and in case it's not obvious, I am trolling... but the story, the numbers etc are all true, just presented in a deliberately provoking way.

    37. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      If you owned the company, wouldn't you want the same?

      Sure, but they hide their real M.O. from Congress and voters. There is no general shortage, but a shortage of those who instantly fit the profile our company wants. But I don't tell Congress that because then I wouldn't get want I want.

      All you need to do is put "expert in " and you will get past the HR screen in 90% of the companies.

      You mean lie? In both cases you seem to be endorsing lying.

      Perhaps to you that's just the way to play the game in the real world, but it backs my original premise that the H1B program is based on a lie. You just don't seem to think that's a "bad thing", or accept it as the ugly-but-necessary reality of politics and capitalism.

    38. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      that won't get you hired on a high-paying job right away. You have to start as a junior, and suck it up when they offer you low pay initially.

      That's not how most companies work. If they want to fill position X they want a perfect fit for X, or as close as possible. They don't want juniors nor PhD's, but the exact qualifications with nothing more or less. (If you have excess qualifications, that's seen as a risk of leaving.)

    39. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Claiming experience is easy. That gets you past HR and to the tech interviewers.

      Once there, they won't care much where you learned what you know, so long as you clearly know it and can demonstrate it with confidence, at least for the junior positions. And that's all you need to get the ball rolling.

      It's a stupid game, but it is what it is. The trick is to know the rules, both official and unofficial.

    40. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, you're one of the self-entitled ones who think the world owes them. You think you deserve a cushy well-paid job just because you've been born here. You want the government to intercede on your behalf when you can't have what you want on your merits alone. You want your benefits handed to you on a silver platter. You want. That is your problem. For some reason, employers prefer the "I can do it so long as you play fair by me" crowd over the "I want it, dammit, how dare you not give it to me" one.

      You are the reason why this country has problems, not me. I'm one of the people footing the bill now that I pay taxes here.

      And yes, of course I am trolling. Have you read the comments on a typical Slashdot H1-B story? It feels good to pay back in kind for a change. Yet every single word of my story is true, as well. You're not being trolled by me here - I'm but a conduit. You're being trolled by life itself. You can suck it up and learn from it, or you can keep whining, it's up to you.

    41. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What language do people speak in England?

    42. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked with a Indian sysop/DBA in Silicon Valley for a couple of years. *Hard*-working, chummy, loyal-to-the-end sort of guy. The guy put in eighty-hour weeks, every week. On top of that, he was on-call 24/7. He mentioned to me that he'd not taken a day of vacation in four years.

      I bothered to dig up the company's H1B application. They were paying the guy $115k/year. Why couldn't they find a qualified sysop/DBA at that rate? The company claimed that it required someone with a *Master's* Degree to fill the position.

      Folks out here with nothing more than a high-school diploma and a few years of experience make $120k base, *easy*. $115k for is *insulting* for someone with a Master's.

      Dude, I'm saying, for every well-treated H1B worker, there's at *least* one exploited bastard here on an H1B.

    43. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by eclectro · · Score: 1

      If we had a properly functioning H-1B program

      I really question if we ever needed an H1B program. Because what it's doing is shifting the costs of training (if there is any) onto someone else. Not to mention the thousands of people who Microsoft and Cisco have laid off. Or the countless older workers who are being discriminated against (it seems like everyone's career ends at 40 - as they're laid off in favor of a younger H1B). If companies did not have H1Bs, perhaps all these 'undesirable' workers would have a lot more value in the job market. Or better yet, the layoffs would not happen in the first place.

      This really is a case of the emperor having no clothes.

      --
      Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
    44. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riiight... I am from a non-english speaking country but started learning English in school at the (then) mandated age of 9, have spent most of my adult life abroad with English being my primary work language. While in school I were taught English spelling rather than American English I have adopted the Americanized version, for example color vs. colour and have noticed that frequently my grasp of grammar and spelling greatly excel that of many Americans. Why is it so unlikely that the poster have a similar back ground or simply is very good at picking up languages and married to an American citizen but unwilling obtain American nationality? I call bullshit on your ignorant observation.

    45. Re: Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cockney rhyming slang.

    46. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5 for an over obvious troll job. Good work!

    47. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for that Mark.

    48. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not entirely. I look forward to seeing you in your 40s and seeing you try to figure out how you'll survive the next twenty five to forty years.

    49. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      For an "immigrant worker" you certainly write just like a typical American troll.

      Not buying it, AC.

    50. Re: Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait but based on earnings per capita aren't there wealthier places to work? Singapore, Switzerland, etc. (Too lazy to look at the list on Wikipedia but I know there are a few.)

      They are closer to India. Also, India has a surprising amount of millionaires and billionaires, why can't you be the next one there if your self-determination is so high?

    51. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am an immigrant working in US on H1-B.

        allowing my wife (an American citizen, by the way) to be a stay at home mom

      Doesn't make sense. If H1-B marries a US citizen, H1-B gets a green card (with conditions) within few months, at most.
      So unless the baby was conceived long before getting married, "stay at home mom" story sounds suspicious.

    52. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DEY TURK R JERBS!!!!1

    53. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am an immigrant working in US on H1-B. Every time I see these stories, I know what comments there will be, but I'm getting tired of all the whining and bullshit.

      First of all, on the "poor underpayed H1-B" myth. I live and work in Seattle metro area. My base pay is $150k, and then another $40k on top of that in bonuses.

      So you make $190,000 per year and you do not know how to spell the word underpaid. This says much about our culture right here, but I'll go for the cheap shot of that's what I'd expect from an H1B.

      This is after being with the company I'm at for slightly over 3 years. And I work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, none of those crazy 60-hour work weeks. I have a fancy house, drive an expensive car, and even after mortage, property tax etc have enough left to support my family by myself, allowing my wife (an American citizen, by the way) to be a stay at home mom - and even then still have some left for my 401k and other savings. To sum it up, as an H1-B I live better than 9 out of 10 Americans do even here in Seattle, much less across the country.

      And you'd like to believe you're just the hot shit, and you deserve better than 90% of the rest of the country. Praytell what is your enormous contribution to our society?

      And you are representative of all H1Bs? Not in my experience... my guess is that you probably have been hired to keep the others in line, but that's just my guess.

      Now you guys say two things. First, that I'm "stealing your job". I'll be blunt: in the current IT job market, if you can't find a job, then either you are living in the wrong place, or (if you're in one of the tech hubs), you plain suck. I know some people hit by Microsoft layoffs: they were immediately snagged by Google and Amazon. It's a seller's market: a good developer today in US can walk out of the door and literally find a job elsewhere tomorrow. If you can't find a job, that's not because some H1-B "stole" it. It's because you're not good enough, and your expectations are too high.

      Oh, we're so glad to have you here! If you weren't here your job would just have to go to someone else. And, you see, it would if the rich hadn't decided that the best way to make themselves richer was to be at the expense of the rest of the 99%. Now, that's a common wish throughout history. But it is usually only once an empire has reached its peak and can't grow further that such a decision is granted. Those decisions, by the way, took place decades ago. This is just the fruit of it.

      Speaking of expectations. One other thing that's often brought up is that H1-Bs "depress the wage" - as in, if we weren't here, you'd be paid more. Is that so? Well yes, of course it is, artificial scarcity (of labor, in this case) raises prices. But why do you believe you're entitled to even higher wages? You can certainly get the same wage as I do (if you're as good as I am) - and that gives you an extremely comfortable life, compared to vast majority of your fellow countrymen.

      But most of us don't want an extremely comfortable life compared to the majority of my countrymen. And most of us don't want you to be living the good life over here when we're just struggling with existence. And that has nothing to do with your being foreign or here on an H1B. It has everything to do with having a middle class that is viable, or even just a simple ability to expect a reasonably secure lifestyle. Something getting increasingly hard for the majority as the rich get richer.

      Oh, and making sure that the citizenry can be meaningfully employed isn't a scarcity-of-labor issue; it was a national security issue until we were sold out by NAFTA and similar agreements by the super-rich. Today, ensuring the citizenry is meaningfully employed is a very distant goal compared to the movement of money for the sake of the rich.

      With some prudent fiscal planning and the right investments, you can retire at 65 with over a million in the b

    54. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you.

    55. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by steelfood · · Score: 1

      It cuts both ways. Most people in the industry jump after 2 years for better pay, or to a startup. How many people stay on for 5, 10 years? Why would you spend 50-100K training someone just so they can leave and work for your competitor or anyone else just because the pay's better? There's a reason besides cost savings that companies stopped training their employees and choose to incur the extra cost of getting more experienced individuals.

      I mostly agree with GP (the AC, not GGP) in that, if you're good, you're always in demand, and can make a good living. Especially in this current market, there's no reason anyone who's good can't find a job other than that person isn't looking hard enough. If you're not that good, sorry, can't help you there. You should try to aim lower. Or shoot for something a little different. Now, you might not necessarily do as well as GP, but then again, you don't know what GP's qualifications actually are.

      As a US citizen working a tech job, I don't see H1B's as competition. I do see offshoring as competition, but with respect to the tech sector, only for the menial and uninteresting jobs that I probably wouldn't do, or would quickly graduate from anyway. There'll always be cool stuff here, if you're good enough for it. I do blame the general state of the education system for producing poorly educated people with no understanding of fundamentals and little ability to think for themselves, but that's a completely separate and much bigger issue and IMHO, a conspiracy orchestrated by the people in power to kill the middle class. And if you agree with that last statement, then the solution is not to whine or rail against foreign talent, but to better yourself and if not possible, then sorry, that's life; suck it up and better your children instead.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    56. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shut up you filthy smelly foreigner!!!

    57. Re: Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your wife is a US citizen, what are the advantages of keeping a temporary visa that ties you to one company over a green card? Serious question hoping for serious answer; anyone chime in if they know, please.

    58. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. It depends on H-1b holder's country of origin. In the case of Indian citizens, it takes 10+ years.

    59. Re:Mark Zuckerberg is a liar. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your so good why not go back to your own country?
      I am sick and tired of u pieces of shit.

  11. Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Baldrson · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Its tragic that Mark et al are being forced to put up with just sort of OK US workers.

    You know one step that Mark et al could take that would grease the skids on their immigration reforms?

    Pay the geniuses they want to import what they're worth. See The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers.

    In fact, Mark et al should either pay back salaries to all of the H-1b workers they've ever employed or Mark et al should be thrown in prison for fraudulent abuse of the H-1B guest worker provision.

    1. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Baldrson · · Score: 1

      silfen confesses "Yes, H-1B workers are at the bottom of the pay scale for the simple reason that H-1B visas are for people just starting out."

      Ah I see. So the violation of the H-1B statute is so pervasive now that people are under the impression that it is for people who are just starting out.

      My mistake.

      Mark et al should simply be thrown in jail for fraud and since this has gotten so far out of hand as to permit responses like silfen's to have the remotest credibility, the jail time should be mandatory without parole.

    2. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, despite all that, I'm curious why they cannot simply open a satellite office in virtual space and employ their foreign workers remotely. What exactly is so unique about working for an internet site that you have to ignore the entire premise of the internet and be somewhere in person?

    3. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by silfen · · Score: 1

      Ah I see. So the violation of the H-1B statute is so pervasive now that people are under the impression that it is for people who are just starting out.

      An H-1B visa is a temporary work permit; it's for a maximum of six years. If you haven't gotten a green card by then, you have to leave the US. The H-1B visa is the primary way in which skilled immigrants arrive in this country. After they get hired on an H-1B, the employer sponsors them for a green card, and then people become citizens. And I'm not "under the impression", I'm an immigrant; I know the process by heart.

      My mistake.

      That's no mistake; you're a xenophobic idiot.

    4. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      it's for a maximum of six years. If you haven't gotten a green card by then, you have to leave the US.

      That's not always true. Depending on where you are in the green card process, you may be able to continue to stay in the USA beyond the 6-year period while your green card is processed.

      Plus, leave the USA for 12 months and you have new 6-year H1 eligibility.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    5. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      That's no mistake; you're a xenophobic idiot.

      You lose.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    6. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      Pay the geniuses they want to import what they're worth

      One of the best suggestions I've read for fixing the H-1B fiasco is that H-1B workers should have a minimum salary of $100k/yr. The whole idea of H-1B is that you can't find a non-foreign worker that has the skills you need. If somebody is so specialized and/or so good at a particular skill, then they should be worth more than $100k/yr. If not, then the claim of local scarcity is bullshit.

    7. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by silfen · · Score: 1

      That's not always true. Depending on where you are in the green card process, you may be able to continue to stay in the USA beyond the 6-year period while your green card is processed.

      Neither of those are relevant to my point, which is that H-1B's have low average earnings because they are mostly people at the beginning of their careers; the link that Baldrson pointed to was biased and misleading.

      H-1B's are the only realistic way to immigrate to the US based on skill. Kill H-1Bs and you kill skill based immigration. Canada and Europe would like nothing more than that, because they make it easy for skilled immigrants.

    8. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you are a poorly informed xenophobe too. I suppose there need to be enough of you around for politicians to pander to your delusions and fears.

    9. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point you missed is that it's supposed to be used for highly-skilled people, not those just starting out. It is illegal for H-1B workers to be at the bottom of the pay scale. They are required by law to be paid more.

    10. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

      also need to add no OT abuse and no job lock.

    11. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      "People just starting out" and "skilled" tend to be opposites which was the point you are so vehemently disagreeing with.

    12. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying that a 50 year old COBOL programmer competes against a 25 year old Master student with training in big data? I don't think so.

    13. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Maybe he could just train some US citizens to be better than just OK.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      $100k/yr, not high enough.
      We get told all the time how critical these individuals are for the company and that the company is unable to find or train an American worker for the job. So I am willing to call the companies' bluff and say I take them at their work. Given how important these individuals are to the company they obviously should be the most highly compensated individuals in the company so their total compensation package should exceed the compensation package that anyone else in the employ of the company is receiving. Make them pay CEO level salary, bonuses, retirement packages, stock options, relocation package, health package, and any other benefits and we will see just how critical these individuals are.

      Another idea that another /. poster suggested was make it so that the company must hire an American to work along side the H1B that will be trained. Both of these individuals are paid the same amount and after some time the H1B is let go.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    15. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you are a poorly informed xenophobe too. I suppose there need to be enough of you around for politicians to pander to your delusions and fears.

      Racist.

    16. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would scale it up to 150k as federal minimum, since you have to include high-cost of living areas like the Valley and NYC in the mix. Note that you are ALREADY supposed to do this, but it is on a 'region and job' basis, and employers aren't penalized for underpaying. Making it a blanket minimum with IRS enforcement would make it pretty easy (and also end the program as currently abused.)

    17. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, H-1B workers are at the bottom of the pay scale for the simple reason that H-1B visas are for people just starting out.

      This is factually incorrect. You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. H1s are paid less for equivalent experience. This is already adjusted in the various research.
      It is much like claiming that women are paid less because of time spent off for maternity leave. Even accounting for items such as maternity leave, part time work, and so forth as time not accrued, they're still paid less for otherwise identical resumes.

    18. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by sethstorm · · Score: 1

      H-1B's are the only realistic way to immigrate to the US based on skill. Kill H-1Bs and you kill skill based immigration.

      Nope. Kill them, replace it with a citizen-favoring system and you end up having to work with the US population.

      Canada and Europe would like nothing more than that, because they make it easy to shaft their own citizens

      FTFY.

      --
      Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    19. Re:Pay These Geniuses What They're Worth! by silfen · · Score: 1

      Nope. Kill them, replace it with a citizen-favoring system and you end up having to work with the US population.

      Do you think having Silicon Valley is a birthright of Americans? What do you think those skilled foreigners would do if they couldn't come to the US? Drive taxicabs? Weave baskets?

      Canada and Europe would like nothing more than that, because they make it easy to shaft their own citizens

      Their citizens are leaving in large numbers to come to the US: "brain drain". If we couldn't come to the US, we'd be working somewhere else and compete with the US.

      The arrogant sense of entitlement of rich, clueless people like you is just amazing. Let's hope that sanity will prevail, skilled immigration will remain relatively easy, and corporate taxes will get lowered, because otherwise, the future of the US economy looks pretty bleak.

  12. FWD.us Apprentice Program Pays $550-A-Month by theodp · · Score: 3, Informative

    Fall Internship Opportunity: FWD.us Apprentice Program
    Opportunity:
    FWD.us is offering a part-time (15 hr/week) apprenticeship program for Fall 2014.
    Compensation:
    This is a paid internship. Apprentices will receive a stipend of $550/month
    Internship perks include:
    * Weekly meetings with FWD.us staff to discuss current political issues
    * Face-to-face meetings with influential tech professionals
    * Professional development coaching in leadership development, networking skills, pitch practice, policy analysis, and qualitative research methods
    * Developing in-depth knowledge about the tech and policy space

    1. Re:FWD.us Apprentice Program Pays $550-A-Month by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      In other words, they'll pay to teach you how to bullshit like they do and then evaluate whether you're the type who willingly drinks the kultural koolaid no matter how syrupy the mix. If you are, welcome aboard! If not, you're blacklisted. They only want hipster 'politically aware' faux 'smart', but not real intellect. The former type thinks they're smarter than they are, but is really just a joiner with pretensions. Real smart means having to pay more than 137/week and deal with an independent intellect.

    2. Re:FWD.us Apprentice Program Pays $550-A-Month by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Part-time Apprenticeships ffs you normally sign your papers for 4 or 5 year fro a proper Apprenticeship.

    3. Re:FWD.us Apprentice Program Pays $550-A-Month by steelfood · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, these types of things are more for the poly-sci majors out there, not for tech graduates. Unless you want to get into politics, which I doubt most tech people would or even could, this type of thing isn't for you.

      Judge that however you will.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  13. Fuck Joe Green ... by briancox2 · · Score: 2

    He's throwing the entire pool of U.S. workers under the bus!! "...just OK..." ???

    --
    We should learn what we need to know about issues, before we decide what we need to feel about them.
    1. Re:Fuck Joe Green ... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      He's throwing the entire pool of U.S. workers under the bus!! "...just OK..." ???

      Judging from the foreign labor I've worked with for the last 6 or 7 years, compared to similarly qualified US workers, I'd say that description is upside-down. About the only thing the Chinese and Indian imports are better at is bowing and scraping and accepting more work than they can possibly do with nothing a "yes, yes, yes" deferring contriteness. That only makes them look like even worse productively, because so many tasks end up as crap, or late, or simply dropped.

      If they mean that foreign workers put on a better facade as slaves, and US workers are only "Ok" slaves, yea, I'll buy that.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  14. I call BS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole argument that we need more H1B visas issued is BS! There are plenty of qualified and well educated Americans, but they won't work for peanuts like most of those desperate to enter the U.S. will.

    The big corporations in this counrty would rather hire foreiners that will work for lower saleries than hire fellow Americans who are qualified and need the jobs. They are willing to sell out fellow Americans to make a few extra dollars.

  15. It sounds like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there's plenty of space for Zuckerberg to pad his affirmative action quotas!

    He's clearly making too much money, and if President Obama has his way, most of that money will be redistributed to the needy. You know, the people that want stuff without earning it or paying for it. They are needy.

    And African Americans are very needy these days. If you don't give them gibs, they will infect the rest of us with Ebola. I don't know how they will survive after that, but it's the thought that counts. Kinda like how African Americans will riot and destroy things for fun, and then threaten to riot again unless someone else comes in and cleans up their mess. Because African Americans don't know how to build; they only know how to destroy.

    Just like President Obama, who has done nothing but attempt to destroy the United States of America. If it wasn't for the Democrats and the Republicans, our country would look like South Africa after they ended apartheid.

  16. What the fuck does the story mean? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 3

    To "Git-R-Done" is a really strange expression, never seen it and I don't lknow what the fuck it means. Did Joe Green failed to use git the repository software and be done?
    More to the point, I didn't know what the FWD.us website was. Then, throwing people under buses is not nice.

    1. Re:What the fuck does the story mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Larry the Cable Guy: Git-R-Done http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0497633/

    2. Re:What the fuck does the story mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Timothy the Summary Guy is a horrible writer. It is an improper way to quote a yester-year cultural icon.

      Actually, the entire summary reads like a mishmash of sentence fragments glued together.

    3. Re:What the fuck does the story mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The whole article is unreadable.

    4. Re:What the fuck does the story mean? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      I know all of these references, and it still makes no sense. The summary is the responsibility of theodp - the choice of not posting it was up to Timothy.

      Blame each accordingly.

    5. Re:What the fuck does the story mean? by BonThomme · · Score: 1

      I think there's a shortage of talented journalists. If only there was a way to solve that...

  17. temporary vs permanent visas by vitriol83 · · Score: 5, Informative

    the disappointing thing about FWD.us is it focuses too much on increasing the quota of temporary (H-1B) visas, and almost no effort on streamlining the path from temporary to permanent. The reason isn't so difficult to see, temporary visas (6-years) are great for employers, not only do they bring in invaluable skills, but they also ensure those skills are tied to the company. They're not so great for either the temporary workers or other potential competitors in the labor market, because they are tied until the sponsoring employer *may at its discretion* apply for permanent residence status. Note in this case success is by no means assured, and may take up to two years. Personally I think the current H-1B quota is more than adequate if it were not used so heavily by a small number of companies, who account for the vast majority of applications. The most urgently needed reform is to not only streamline the permanent residence process, but to also give more agency to H-1B workers, to for instance self-petition for permanent residence status based on a number of factors. This will reduce the natural 'pull' to employers for temporary workers, and even the playing field between temporary and permanent residents.

    1. Re:temporary vs permanent visas by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      This! Except for:

      They're not so great for either the temporary workers or other potential competitors in the labor market, because they are tied until the sponsoring employer *may at its discretion* apply for permanent residence status. Note in this case success is by no means assured, and may take up to two years.

      Two years? If you're a lucky one, I suppose that's true. I'm looking at about 4 years right now, and I know some guys from India for whom it's more like 6, and I believe even that's not the worst.

  18. Solution - Let Americans apply for H1-B status by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems if they want to play that way they should allow Americans to apply for the H1-B status before foreigners.. let them compete on a level playing field

    1. Re:Solution - Let Americans apply for H1-B status by PPH · · Score: 1

      I don't think you want that. The property of an H1-B worker that is most attractive to industry is the ability to throw them out of the country should they get uppity and start asking for raises.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  19. Summary? by Duncan+J+Murray · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or a collection of fullstops, dashes and capitalised consonants?

    1. Re:Summary? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's trash. The job of a writer is to assist the reader in a smooth information exchange. This article summary is like dragging your eyeballs over cloven razerblades.

  20. Critical to the tech community? by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    Not so much. Critical to the _investor class_ maybe? But for anyone in tech this is the end of what's left of their careers. How are we suppose to compete which borderline indentured servitude?

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Critical to the tech community? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're supposed to suck the dicks of the 1% while they "trickle down" their pee on your head.

    2. Re:Critical to the tech community? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      How are we supposed to compete with borderline indentured servitude?

      Simple - be self employed.

      I'll wait for the inevitable answers about how hard it is to start a company, and tax implications, and inability to count on income since it depends on the economy.

      But, if you watch something like Shark Tank, you see an endless stream of actual small businesses that are somehow creating a market for a product that don't have any reason to exist - other than there is a market for it. Someone had a product, found a market, and started making money.

      That's the American way.

      That's how these companies started in the first place. In 1962 Walmart was a single store in Rogers, Arkansas. Exxon-Mobil was a gamble on a new (oil) industry that led to a Supreme Court decision to split Standard Oil into 34 companies. I could go down the Fortune 100 list, but you could do the same.

      How do you turn a chain of five-and-dime stores into a world-dominating $400+ billion p.a. super company? Luck, experience, grit, and probably more stuff. How do you decide to turn a produce company into an oil producer? Insanity, I suppose.

      Shark Tank shows that business is alive and well. We don't have to work for them - we can compete with them. Not with the H1-B, but with the company itself.

      If you can't compete with the company, and you can't compete with the indentured servant, then you must defend this question: In what way other than to the investor class are you valuable?

      If you develop software, but not ideas, and I don't develop ideas so I'm in the software part, then how are you valuable as something other than a replaceable part? I specifically reference Heinlein's "Time for the stars", where the irreplaceable are specifically replaceable. A cog in a wheel.

      I earn above the median wage because I'm awesome, but I am not among the rich. I'm trying to compete with developers, not with indentured servants. And not with the people who created my job. The latter have my thanks, much as I will complain day to day.

    3. Re:Critical to the tech community? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      And 77% of all self-started businesses fail within the first ten years - not shut down - fail. Even at that, self employed people, on average, make less money than those employed by businesses owned by others. And this is what you promote as a strategic choice for peoples' careers? Not to mention that many people don't have the entrepreneurial skills necessary to successfully run their business (see the first report - incompetence and inexperience are the top three reasons for business failure).

      I thought probability of success figured into any proper decision calculation. You aren't a Republican by any chance, are you? Not being part of the "reality-based" community seems to be an indicator for that.

      --
      That is all.
    4. Re:Critical to the tech community? by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      ...You aren't a Republican by any chance, are you? Not being part of the "reality-based" community seems to be an indicator for that.

      All of the talking points seem to be there:

      • "... the people who created my job. The latter have my thanks..." = You should be grateful the Job Creators even gave you a job.
      • "Shark Tank shows that business is alive and well. We don't have to work for them - we can compete with them..." = Or you should be a Job Creator yourself, reality TV proves there is nothing to it!
      • "If you can't compete with the company, and you can't compete with the indentured servant, then you must defend this question: In what way other than to the investor class are you valuable?" = You can't dethrone a corporation by yourself, and don't like having you wages depressed by admitted servitude, then you are worthless...
      • "I specifically reference Heinlein's "Time for the stars", where the irreplaceable are specifically replaceable. " = reference to Libertarian fiction to bolster case.
      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
    5. Re:Critical to the tech community? by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      Oops! Make that reference to Libertarian juvenile fiction to bolster case.

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
  21. what else did y'all expect... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what else did y'all expect from that cunt, go watch the movie!

  22. It's al Greek to me by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    Who is Zuckerwit btw?

    1. Re:It's al Greek to me by rossz · · Score: 1

      He's the social media billionaire that went zombie and got blown away by Faith when she boarded his mega-yacht.

      --
      -- Will program for bandwidth
    2. Re:It's al Greek to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's a paper billionaire that will hopefully be poor and destitute after DotBomb 2.0.

  23. rire by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank u so much for this post its really help.
    rire
    blague
    chanson
    blagues

  24. stop dreaming by silfen · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Hey, Mark, MSFT just laid off 18,000 people; Cisco just laid off a bunch; MSFT just the other day closed its research center right down the street from you - filled with gifted coders and brilliance. Mark, there is a MOUND of studies showing NO shortage of STEM works in the US.

    If you mean that there is no shortage of people with STEM credentials, you are absolutely right. But most of those people are the product of a dysfunctional US educational system. They have fancy degrees but not the skills the US needs. US industry doesn't want them. The fact that there is a worldwide shortage of qualified STEM graduates is easy to see, since many other nations basically just rubber stamp work visas for skilled workers.

    And the idea that you can force American companies to hire American workers that don't meet their needs is ludicrous. What those companies are going to do is hire the workers they actually want overseas. And eventually, they are just going to leave the US altogether, by moving their headquarters abroad, by "inversions", or eventually by just getting acquired by overseas competitors.

    1. Re:stop dreaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And eventually, they are just going to leave the US altogether, by moving their headquarters abroad, by "inversions", or eventually by just getting acquired by overseas competitors.

      Then we should let them go wherever else they want while withdrawing the blanket of US military protection from those parts of the world. You will see how quickly they rush back to US shores begging for protection from the corrupt barbarians who want bribes, ransoms and cut off their heads when they refuse. These people need to be reminded of who pays to keep them and their children safe which is the ordinary citizens whose taxes pay to maintain the most powerful military on the planet.

    2. Re:stop dreaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you mean that there is no shortage of people with STEM credentials, you are absolutely right. But most of those people are the product of a dysfunctional US educational system. They have fancy degrees but not the skills the US needs. US industry doesn't want them. The fact that there is a worldwide shortage of qualified STEM graduates is easy to see, since many other nations basically just rubber stamp work visas for skilled workers.

      [citation needed]

      And not just circular references back to the lobbyist PACs. Show peer reviewed, independent studies that back this up.

  25. Mark Zuckerberg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He is in way over his head and making mockery of IT industry, and should step down from Facebook as unfit as the CEO, or someone should lead a boardroom coup oust him!

  26. stop dreaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let them. That's the real problem. These companies do not want to move overseas, probably couldn't sustain the model they have if they did so, but want to exploit the system by paying overseas wages with the advantages they get from being a US company. Let them go elsewhere, there are plenty who would take their place. Instead, they are taking ad money from companies selling in the US, or selling products to US citizens banking on the expendable income that is common here while hoping to lower their employees wages to that of nations where this expendable income isn't present. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Let them go, or let them pay what is expected in the nation they are selling to. I wish we would do the same with manufacturing.

  27. Stop bitching about your labor market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want access to awesome overseas talent, go overseas with your company.

    1. Re:Stop bitching about your labor market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. Go be a leech elsewhere.

  28. silly child. If you ask your parents. by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    They will gladly tell you that insurance rates have been going up for decades, and having to choose new doctors is something all grownups have to do on a regular basis.

  29. Pshha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My first thought was: If your workers are so fantastic, are so much better than the "just OK" workers that can be found in America, why does Facebook suck so many balls? Why have I more or less sworn off Facebook because of how utterly inane and narcissistic and, at least formerly, downright slow it is/was? If I heard that coming from anyone, I would think, "What an asshole." But coming from Zuckerberg, I think, "What a dumb asshole!" :)

    Note: it may not be slow anymore. A few years ago, it was slow as week-old constipated shit on an oldish computer I was using... that managed to run every single other website and application that I used just fine. This spoke volumes about how efficient the code was and about just how great his team really was. I am not and have never been impressed by Facebook. May it go the way of friendster and myspace. Hell, I remember when the chat alert sound would have a lag of like a second and sound fucked up. And I'd go into gmail and its chat (and sounds) would be seamless. There was some real rotten code in the middle of that beast, and I would be surprised if it wasn't still the case. I just have a fancy desktop now that can handle anything, so I don't notice. Oh, no, that's not true. I installed facebook purity and then Facebook stopped crashing my browser when it would try to autoplay the videos with another audio stream open. Lame-ass-program, Facebook. And just now, I realized this wasn't exactly Facebook claiming this, so I'm probably rambling, but close enough.

  30. Zuck can't be bothered training anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Used to be Storage Tech, IBM, Bell Labs, HP, lots of etcs, took the best-and-brightest from college and trained them to be the brilliant thinkers they needed for the future. So many sharp young programmers get stuck tapping mind-numbing code for games or websites, and never get the opportunity to do some productive work - you know, where the results matter. The offshore billions these CSs are warehousing, should be going toward in-house training and R&D not lining the pockets of the 1%, who pay virtually no taxes on unearned (or earned - HA! ) income.

    1. Re:Zuck can't be bothered training anyone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah but that was during a time when America manufactured things and corporations at least feigned caring about their workers. Nowadays we rate useless websites as multi-billion dollar companies.

  31. Maybe those who remember history should start... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...repeating it.

  32. Unreadable summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The summary gives me no clue what this article is about, because it is COMPLETELY FUCKING UNREADABLE. How is it that these people are getting hired for editor jobs, yet don't seem to have a rudimentary grasp of how to write readable summaries?

    How about:

    "Joe Green, head of the FWD.us Political Action Committee (PAC) has resigned, and will be replaced by Todd Schulte, according to an announcement from the PAC. Rumors suggest that Green was pushed out due to the organization's failure to produce results lobbying for tech immigration reform. The FWD.us PAC was founded by Mark Zuckerberg shortly after a Washington Post report described Facebook as having becom "legally dependent" on H-1B visas, which made the company subject to stricter regulations as a result."

    Or, if you want ridiculous click-bait:

    "Joe Green was Mark Zuckerberg's close friend and college roommate - and you won't believe what he's up to now!"

    Or, if you want something sure to catch the eyes of the super smart Slashdot elite conspiracy theory team:

    "Shady bazillionaire toady something something conspiracy something 99% other bazillionaire today, Obama hope change bus immigration bazinga!"

    I submit that all THREE of these alternatives would make for better reading. Slashdot, I humbly await your job offer.

    1. Re:Unreadable summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The summary is very clear.

      See, Zuckerberg and Obama are in cahoots with FWD.us and it's a big patronage deal, and Todd is the new Green. Obama's re-election campaign brought about big time PAC (Political Action Committee) money, and Todd (the new Green) is now in charge of FWD.us and he's pushing so-called 'Leadership Change' to the board. Meanwhile, Zuck the billionaire is pushing H1-B's because his PAC is at the helm of FWD.us so he'll Git-R-Done for the tech community.

    2. Re:Unreadable summary by Americano · · Score: 1

      The summary is very clear.

      I can only assume that you're cracked out of your skull if you think that ridiculous mish-mash of word salad is clear.

  33. Nope, you're wrong. by sethstorm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the specific case of Facebook, it is not about driving wages down. Facebook pays decent wages, even for Silicon Valley standards. It is about not increasing wages.

    If it's not (in any way) about wages, then there would be no problem for Congress to repeal the 1965 Immigration Act in its entirety, cancel all the programs enabled by it, and (via the market) actively/aggressively solicit long-term unemployed US citizens in their place - as regular workers. There are more than enough of them to go around to be not only qualified, but very well qualified. Unfortunately, citizenship in the US makes people expensive, even for hard-working, by-the-book immigrants that want to come to the US.

    Truth of the matter is, in the SF Bay Area, it is hard to be unemployed if you're a properly skilled tech worker, citizen, green-card holder or otherwise.

    Truth of the matter is that "properly skilled" can be redefined to exclude otherwise-suitable US citizens too easily. In the eyes of an H1-b/L1/etc. supporter, "properly skilled" is equivalent to saying "has proper fear of an employer". If you were to go to the extreme end of business-friendliness (which spawned the H1-b preference), the ultimately qualified worker is a slave. They cost nothing and are the easiest to dispose.

    That doesn't mean I condone the way that the H1-B program often is being abused today. I've seen abuse, and we'll always see that.

    Then get rid of what enables the abuse - every single guest worker program. After that, strict enforcement of immigration laws already on the books - SB1070 and similar laws show that it works.

    But this is only made possible due to the ridiculous limits on permanent resident visas vs the amount of H1-B visas, as I pointed out in this comment

    The only proper limit for all guest worker programs is 0. If you want someone enough, they'll take up naturalization where they can't be corralled between sponsor employers. It might make them incur business-unfriendly "costs of freedom" (by being able to choose their employer), but the market also functions to raise prices.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:Nope, you're wrong. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      You should try actually being a "guest worker" in another country sometime. Then maybe you'd see how completely full of crap you are.

      Med vänliga hälsningar från Stockholm,

      Z.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  34. as with Joe Green so goes American Tech. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Zucker is not just tossing Joe under the bus. He wants to pay 3rd world wages for the best trained worker Bangalore can produce (while producing 1st world profits, natch). Those pesky locals are grumpy about working 100 hour weeks, paying the mortgage on minimum wage, and eating more than rice and curry. So toss the locals, hire the foreign workers, pay them there, pay lower taxes there, collect revenue here, pocket the difference. Isn't American wonderful (if your are a billionaire)?

  35. Does Not Add Up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is something wrong here.

    There is a very dissonant disconnect with Zuck, O and much of the federalistas y centralistas in D.C.

    Eh comrades. Big O is not so BIG and not so O.

    Even Zuck. Just a little kerosene and a little gasoline will turn his house into a flaming inferno for him
    and his skank to die in. Just a few minutes, and apply duct tape to the windows for Godly measure.

    Haha

  36. Bus? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    I guess they were immigrating from Canada or Mexico.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  37. The current rule is a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    All this about making difficult to bring in h1b worker is useless. The whole point is to bring in someone that locally you can't find the talent. However, this core rule is often worked around. I remember a few years ago I over hear a slimy manager coaching my former manager about how to bring in a h1b they wanted. That a-hole told him that just tailor the job requirement around the h1b's resume. Evidently there is an equal candidate, but he is a local and they don't want to pay him at the local rate. So the slime told my manager as an example, given the h1b guy claim he has 5 years of c# experience, put that down as part of the job requirement even though we don't even use c# and would not have consider it w/o rewrite everything we have developed. However, given the local guy did not have C# experience, this gives justification. While at it, toss in SQL and other crap that the local guy's resume don't have. I decided right then to get the hell out and warned my friends within the group and outside the group not to join. Yes, they did hired the h1b and I left soon after. Most of people I warned also got out and in a way later I found out due to brain drain, it was decided that the group should move to a low cost geo. Oh the manager? Last time I saw him, he looked like crap and he is doing some sort of program management as an individual contributor. He couldn't understand why people don't want to work for him. The h1b guy hung around long enough to help the transition to the low cost geo. To be honest, I don't have any sympathy to the manager or the h1b guy who got caught in the middle.

  38. Actually, there's something always overlooked... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When social security was put in place it was based on the idea of an expanding job base with more and more middle-class Americans paying in each year to support retirees. Social Security is racing toward bankruptcy and if you are under 60 you will not get your promised benefits. One of the reasons the program is going to collapse is that people like Gates and Zuck and (and Apple and Google and friends) have depressed the pay-in to SS by many billions of dollars by suppressing wages by importing H1B users, outsourcing manufacturing, and under-the-table no-poaching agreements. Any company doing ANY of these things SHOULD by all rights be hit with a MASSIVE social security, workers' comp, and unemployment surtax... perhaps 25% of global assets and revenue ;-)

    Remember: ALL these actions are by VERY clever people who know EXACTLY what they are doing... these actions do not just depress the pay and benefits of the actual individual worker; they affect the "prevailing" "industry standard" wage in each job category and in all related job categories. If you simply slow the rate of increase in the wage of one engineer at Google or Apple or Facebook, you suppress the ability of the techs that work around him to ask for more pay and that in-turn affects the benefits for the lesser-skilled around those people. When wages fail to rise at the natural rate for programmers at Apple, all the programmers working at other firms in California find it harder to ask for wage increases. People who focus on the individual with the H1B and the individual he/she rplaced are playing "small ball" while the tech titans and the elected officials they buy are getting insanely wealthy playing a professional game... These guys are exactly like "big oil" (who scheme over pennies on the gallon - because that becomes millions of dollars when you consider the number of gallons being sold) in that even if they suppress pay or benefits by a very small amount for an individual, it becomes millions when you consider the total number of employees.

  39. Not just Indians by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time there is talk about H1-B, the "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS" crowd is very vocal. They put the issue as hiring a qualified american vs hiring a clueless Indian. However, there are many cases of hiring a clueless American vs hiring a qualified European caused by the current American work visa malaise as well which legitimately hurts the American companies.

  40. Re:silly child. If you ask your parents. by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

    They will gladly tell you that insurance rates have been going up for decades, and having to choose new doctors is something all grownups have to do on a regular basis.

    And in addition, if they've paid any attention, they will also tell him that the rates have increased both before and after the passage of the ACA because of government.

    I dunno about *your* parents, but mine saw the same doctor for decades, until he retired. Because government made it more attractive for him to retire rather than to keep his practice open.

    But hey, let's give government even more of people's hard-earned money and even more control over everything!

    "Thank you Sir, may I have another?"

    "Idiocracy" was a documentary. Slashdot posters prove it every day.

    Strat

    --
    Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  41. Re:get online jobs by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

    Sounds like she could easily be replaced by an H1b worker.

    --
    Time to offend someone
  42. Re:Actually, there's something always overlooked.. by Baldrson · · Score: 1

    Correct. Furthermore when you have gutted the demand side of the economy what emerges are phenomena like Walmart where lower consumer prices are achieved through a monopsony (the private sector form of the "single payer" holy grail socialized medicine seeks for the same reason) that not only pays its suppliers less, but also its employees less because as the jobs market contracts, there is nowhere else to work ultimately. Walmart also knows EXACTLY what it is doing when it trains its employees in the art of extracting government benefits from a decreasing government revenue stream.

    All of this wouldn't be so bad if the tax base were on net assets rather than economic activity as at least then the companies engaging in corrupt hiring practices --such as I witnessed during the huge ramp up in H-1b circa 2000 when I was told I could hire all the programmers from India for HP but not the single US-citizen specialist in the field that I needed -- will be dumped because the companies doing them will be put out of business by a more level playing field in the free market.

  43. What did you expect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  44. "Stealing" a job by phorm · · Score: 1

    I don't really agree with the whole "stealing jobs" thing, but some concern with these types of visas include

    * Foreign workers are at the mercy of employers
    Yes, even when they come here on a decent wage, employers often use the visa to push for unpaid OT, or to have them look the other way in the face of workplace violations
    * Investing in workers
    This is perhaps a bigger issue to me, and the issue itself goes beyond work visas etc. The relationship between companies and their employees is sour. Companies used to invest in their employees more, and in-turn they often got more loyalty. Except for some union situations, it's easier to get rid of employees and re-hire than to invest in training. If the foreign worker is more qualified that's as least something, but it would be nice if companies considered training existing employees or offering more education advancement opportunities. There's ignored value in keeping somebody around who knows the workings of a company, even if he/she is missing some of the technical merits for a position.

    However, I don't fault foreign workers for taking better-paying jobs in better-paying environments.If somebody offered me a 50% raise to work in a tropical country I'd have a hard time passing that up.

  45. It's not just the money! by david.emery · · Score: 1

    What keeps someone at a job that might pay less than he could get for hopping?

    1. Individual job satisfaction? (Yeah, laugh! That's a big part of the industry's problem! Proof: http://thedailywtf.com/ :-)
    2. Co-workers, the company, the location
    3. Benefits and incentives to remain

    I guess as a Boomer, these might be old fart attitudes. But at least for many of the people I've worked with, they're significant considerations. Salary alone has rarely been the primary reason engineers change jobs. That's well-documented, here's one reference that tries to summarize the research: http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/04/d...

  46. Re:Dissolution of the middle class!. YES! by bbsalem · · Score: 1

    So, how many of the 6 Million odd people who live in the San Francisco Bay Area could actually compete with you for a job? And if they could, are there enough positions to go around? The first answer is that very few of the people who live here could compete with you because for lots of reason YOU are a member of an elite. The second answer is that there really are FEWER positions available than the lying sacks of shit who run many of the companies here want to admit. The positions are so specialized because there are far more people pestering the HR departments of their companies for those few positions, AND, they are taking advantage of the law to hire off-shore "talent" whether or not those people are creative or productive. The demand exceeds the supply and for some segments of the industry hiring an idiot who does what he is told is cheaper than wading through all the supply to find a better match.

    Where this matters is that more and more you work in an ivory tower with the great unwashed baying at the gate and resenting you more and more because you say smug things like we hear here that belie the reality out there. I have been on both sides of the divide. I know what it is like to work on the inside and I know what it is like to be "out" like I am now. The reason I am out has to do with external factors that make me uncompetative, such as mounting physical disability. I was excluded during the dot.gone "recovery" which really wasn't. There is a big lie that Silicon Valley was like it was before 2004 or that it is pulling its weight, that it deserves to be revered any more as a job creator, even if it is a wealth creator; the number of people employed by the best capitalized companies is really quite small in number. I would like to see SV discouraged and the companies move away, like to Texas, as its impact on this area has turned largely negative. Only 1-percent'ers are benefiting and the rest of us are having to pay in higher property values and rents, and we pay more taxes because of the property pressures. I'd like to see many of the companies move out. The Party's Over!

  47. Re:Dissolution of the middle class!. YES! by sabri · · Score: 1

    YOU are a member of an elite

    No I'm not. I was forced out of San Jose because of the high housing prices. I'm not even going to try Palo Alto, Menlo Park or San Francisco. I'm way south of the Bay. Definitely not elite, even though I'd like to think of myself as someone skilled in network engineering.

    you work in an ivory tower with the great unwashed baying at the gate

    You could not be further from the truth. I encourage anyone, from the janitor to the security guards, to take an interest in computer science and network engineering. I remind them that I never took any classes that are relevant to my job. If I can do it, they can do it. So can everyone else who is interested. I got to where I am today because I threw Windows 95 from my PC and installed Linux. That led me down a path of systems administrator, network administrator to the JNCIE that I am today. My formal education did nothing whatsoever to get me here. Nothing 31337 about that.

    --
    I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
  48. Re:silly child. If you ask your parents. by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    feel free to leave any time. Of course the places that would take a self-entitled deadbeat like you don't have any infrastructure for you to leach off of so I guess we'll just have to listen to you whine.

  49. stop lying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been recruiting engineers for ten years. The American colleges are putting out fine candidates, they just want to be paid market wages and be treated legally. That is the only shortage. The US education system is only dysfunctional at the high school and below levels, but no one is putting H1s in unskilled labor.

    H1s will put up with abuse because if you get fired for refusing an illegal request you still get deported and your green card process gets reset, and the green card process takes several years. If you sexually harass that cute blonde American girl from WPI there's a nonzero chance you get sued and perhaps fired. If you do it to the cute blonde Russian girl from Moscow you probably get away with it.

  50. How many slaves do you have? by NewYork · · Score: 1

    How many slaves do you have?

    USA: We have no slaves. We abolished slavery in 1862.
    China: We have no slaves. We abolished slavery in 1906.
    India: We have 800 million slaves. We call them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_caste
    Zuckerberg: I've 1280 million slaves. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook

  51. Albert Einstein and Linus Torvalds by NewYork · · Score: 1

    H1B was originally intended for extra-ordinary professionals like Albert Einstein and Linus Torvalds and NOT for http://sammyboy.com/showthread.php?98021-Companies-ruined-or-almost-ruined-by-imported-Indian-labor-%28US%29

  52. Dollar hegemony by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Tell your regime to FIX https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_hegemony and H1B issue will be fixed automagically.

  53. Post hoc ergo propter hoc by NewYork · · Score: 1

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_hegemony leads to abuse of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1b

  54. Re:Nope, you're wrong by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    You should try actually being a "guest worker" in another country sometime. Then maybe you'd see how completely full of crap you are.

    That doesn't disprove the issues in the US. All that it does is show other guest worker programs, where similar contempt exists.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  55. You're illogically applying Entitlement Mentality by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    So entitlement mentality (in this case, an arrogant disregard for the residents around you) is OK if you have a measure of success, but not if you don't?

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.