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IBM Solar Concentrator Can Produce12kW/day, Clean Water, and AC

Posted by samzenpus on from the all-in-one dept.

Lucas123 writes IBM Research and Switzerland-based Airlight Energy today announced a parabolic dish that increases the sun's radiation by 2,000 times while also producing fresh water and air conditioning. The new Concentrator PhotoVoltaics (CPV) system uses a dense array of water-cooled solar chips that can convert 80% of the sun's radiation into useful energy. The CPV, which looks like a 33-foot-high sunflower, can generate 12 kilowatts of electrical power and 20 kilowatts of heat on a sunny day — enough to power several average homes, according to Bruno Michel, the project's lead scientists at IBM Research in Switzerland.

47 of 268 comments (clear)

  1. OK by SpankiMonki · · Score: 5, Funny

    Bring this to Texas please. Do it now. Thanks in advance.

    1. Re: OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And power poles are ok?

    2. Re: OK by BenSchuarmer · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, which is why most power poles in the United States are filled with bullet holes.

    3. Re:OK by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 3, Funny

      .22? Can you not afford a real gun?

    4. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      > I can't understand what the heck people are thinking sometimes.

      That's because the some of us have evolved past "oh no big scary thing me get gun shoot it feel good"

    5. Re:OK by DexterIsADog · · Score: 4, Funny

      .22? Can you not afford a real gun?

      It's important that the round not exit the skull, but instead ricochets around to turn the brain into mush.

      It's just being considerate to the neighbors.

    6. Re:OK by sillybilly · · Score: 5, Informative

      Chill out dude.. the solar irradiation, called isolation (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...) is nowhere near the amount they claim, if 12 kW power average over the day is what they claim, for the amount of surface area their thing covers. I guess they mean 12kWh, not kW, kilowatt-hour, not kilowatt, which are two different beasts. Even that, at 5 cents a kWh, 12 kWh comes to 60 cents of electric power a day. Their contraption looks like a couple ten thousand dollar thing, and the economics are simply not there. Let alone the maintenance cost of a moving thing, that has to track the Sun accurately across the sky, it could be miscalibrated, or motor breaks down. The cheapest thing with solar is massive massive land area at like 8-15% efficiency, with a flat nonmoving panel, that might cost a couple ten bucks a square meter, long term. 80% collection efficiency might be great on a space station or satellite that needs to get lifted off this planet with expensive rocket fuel, but it does not make sense down here if it costs $10,000 for a few square meters, the price needs to drop to like $10-$40 per square meter, and these guys, like Mc Hammer says, just can't touch that. The maximum amount of solar irradiation hitting the planet is 1kW/square meter, and 12kW would be 3x4 meters, at 100% efficiency, a human being being around 6ft=6*12 inches=72 inches=72*2.54cm/in=182.88 cm, or 1.83 meters tall, in comparison. Looking at the guy next to some of their devices, it's not 3x4 meters area, though others look big enough, but who cares if it breaks the bank simply on pouring the cement foundation for it, let alone the tracking system, compared to some slanted panel you toss out there, without a concrete foundation, and you don't care if it breaks down because it can be thrown away and replaced cheaply. Solar power is all about economics, and that means not much fancy stuff. Nuclear has the energy density plus it does require the fanciest of fancy things you can throw at it, but solar is simply too thin energy wise to invest a lot of money into a small collection surface area, because even if you get every last bit of it, it's still not that much. Massive land area, like cheap real estate available in deserts, is what's needed by solar. Wind can allow farming side by side, and real estate land area requirements are not that big. If anything, semitransparent thin film covered glass solar is the future in nondesert places, that allows a greenhouse to still make it in its semi-shade, plus all the glass covered buildings and nonglass rooftops, though cleaning them can be an issue on roofs.

    7. Re:OK by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Good thing we have Slashdot to save us from getting excited about hi tech stuff. I mean, just off the top of his head, the OP has taken apart thousands of man hours of work and cut to the chase. Fine work.

      Less space than a Nomad, no wireless. Lame.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re: OK by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      What about neighbor's houses? Shoot them up, they're ugly and block your view of all the flat stuff that's on the other side.

    9. Re:OK by Bengie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      According to the article, it's 40 square meters, and the Sun gives up a max of 1.3KW per square meter, which means it has a maximum of 52KW output at 100% and a clear sky. 80% would be about 41KWh per hour. If you assume 3 good hours, that's over 100KWH per day or $5 of $0.05/KWH energy. Almost $2k per year.

    10. Re:OK by Crazy+Taco · · Score: 2

      According to the article, it's 40 square meters, and the Sun gives up a max of 1.3KW per square meter, which means it has a maximum of 52KW output at 100% and a clear sky. 80% would be about 41KWh per hour. If you assume 3 good hours, that's over 100KWH per day or $5 of $0.05/KWH energy. Almost $2k per year.

      The economics still aren't there. A clear sky isn't enough. You won't get the sun's max in North America due to angle of the sun, especially in fall or winter. Even in summer, the angle in most parts of the country is such that you wouldn't get the max. And, in most parts of the country you also have a lot of clouds and rain (desert southwest being the exception), and you also have a fair amount of severe weather that could damage the thing. I'd be surprised if you get half of your $2k per year figure.

      So figure this thing can be built for 20k. And you manage to save $1k a year. It will take 20 years to pay off, and it probably won't last that long. So it's certainly interesting and might even be applicable in select places in New Mexico or Arizona, but in places like Minnesota, it has minimal practicality from a financial perspective.

      --
      Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
    11. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      um... the AR-15 fires .22

    12. Re:OK by tsa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The world is bigger than the US you know.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    13. Re:OK by swillden · · Score: 4, Informative

      um... the AR-15 fires .22

      No, it doesn't. Oh, the diameter of the bullet is very similar, but it's longer, heavier and moving much, much faster and therefore carrying an order of magnitude more kinetic energy. Of course I'm comparing to the ubiquitous .22 LR, but the comparison doesn't change much if you step up to the .22 magnum, and the difference is even larger if you look at the .22 short.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re:OK by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Only if you stick the gun point blank to someone's head. otherwise a .22 won't penetrate the human skull.

      Don't bet your life on that.

      First things first, let’s see what percentage of observed gunfights ended in a fatality for the person on the receiving end.

      The graph is pretty clear on this: .22 caliber firearms are just as deadly in a gunfight as any other handgun caliber. In fact, it beat the average (far right). Surprisingly, every caliber that begins with a 4 (.40 S&W, .45, .44 Mag) performed worse than the .22 caliber firearms in terms of putting the opponent in the dirt for good.

      http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...

    15. Re: OK by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

      Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    16. Re:OK by Khyber · · Score: 2

      "The average power of the sun per square meter on the earth surface is just ~165W (because there is the night, seasons, bad weather and so on) by the way. "

      Yea, source? I'm calling bullshit.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    17. Re:OK by Minwee · · Score: 2

      One can generally buy a hundred rounds of .22LR for the cost of two or three rounds of .223 ammo.

      Assuming one can *find* said .22LR.

      Chet in Goodsprings usually has some, or you can try the gift ship inside the giant dinosaur statue in Novac.

  2. Cubic litres by Darktan · · Score: 5, Funny

    The system is capable of producing up to 1,600 cubic liters of water per day

    Either the author is an idiot, or his universe has more dimensions than mine.

    1. Re:Cubic litres by crioca · · Score: 4, Informative
      I'm pretty sure he's an idiot, or at least doesn't understand the difference between increasing something and concentrating something:

      a new parabolic dish that increases the sun's radiation by 2,000 times

      Nope.

    2. Re:Cubic litres by slinches · · Score: 4, Funny

      It must be the higher dimensionality thing since he successfully converts that to 350 cubic gallons (imperial, no less) a bit further along.

      Alternatively, the water produced by this process is cubic in shape which would make it difficult to use with traditional plumbing systems.

      --
      Knowledge Brings Fear
    3. Re:Cubic litres by khallow · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hopefully, they'll use this power for good. Else increasing the sun's radiation by 2000 times is going to mess up the finish on my car.

    4. Re:Cubic litres by BringsApples · · Score: 2

      I was going to comment basically the same thing. Imagine Mercury's surprise.

      --
      Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
  3. 12kW/day? by viperidaenz · · Score: 5, Informative

    Is that 12kWh or 12kW/24h which is 288kWh

    W is a unit of power, not energy.

    1. Re:12kW/day? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      Hmm, TFA also says the collector can produce "1600 cubic liters per day" of H2O.

      So I suspect very strongly that the author hasn't a clue what he's talking about as regards this device....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:12kW/day? by MattskEE · · Score: 5, Informative

      It could also be 12kW peak, which with typical sunlight variation over a day would work out to around 60kWh per day.

      Most of the time I see a non-technical article about solar with a kilowatt figure it's the peak power available from the cells, and as a first estimate you can multiply the peak solar power by 5 hours to get the daily output.

    3. Re:12kW/day? by bunratty · · Score: 2

      3 editors, but they spend only 12 editor-seconds per story.

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    4. Re:12kW/day? by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      It is 12kW peak according the TFA.

    5. Re:12kW/day? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to the article:

      "can generate 12 kilowatts of electrical power and 20 kilowatts of heat on a sunny day "

      (implying peak performance)
      and later in the article:

      "still generating electricity with a more than 25% yield or two kilowatt hours per day"

      25% is 2kwh, so full yield is about 8kwh per day. This would suggest that 12kw probably happens rarely and very briefly.

    6. Re:12kW/day? by MattskEE · · Score: 2

      Yes, it's a very crude estimate, and more of a summertime number too here in the US.

      In the US I would refer them to PV Watts which will take examine a database of historical solar data and tell you how much daily energy to expect through the year for different types of setups, even including solar panel fixed angle or angle tracking systems. But it will not take into account your point on the effect of diffuse light on concentrated systems.

    7. Re:12kW/day? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Informative

      *sighs* yes, it produces 1600 CUBIC LITERS of it.

      To explain (for the slow), liters are cubic decimeters. A cubic liter would be decimeters raised to the 27th power.

      Note that we don't actually have twenty-seven spatial dimensions available to produce cubic liters in....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:12kW/day? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sorry for nit picking but a cubic liter is a decimeter to the 9th power. L^3 = (dm^3)^3 = dm^9, not dm^27.

      Not that this helps those of us constrained to 3 (or 4) dimensional space.

    9. Re:12kW/day? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Funny

      Per cubic story.

      FTFYFTFYFTFY

  4. Re:Besides by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

    Sure, it can also cook dogs unit they're hot.

  5. 47 square yards? by HaeMaker · · Score: 2

    Really? 47 square yards. Who uses "square yards" as an area measurement? Took me all of two seconds to find out this is 423 sq ft, but still...

    1. Re:47 square yards? by nickovs · · Score: 2

      That is of course "acre feet", not "ache feet". Bloody auto-correct!

      --
      If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
  6. link to a genuine source, not this shitty article by supernova87a · · Score: 5, Informative

    My head is about to explode with the level of pure units stupidity by this article's author. He should be banned from the profession of writing...

  7. Found the IBM link. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is a link to the IBM release: http://www.ibm.com/ibm/responsibility/corporateservicecorps/solar.html
    This confirms a power output max of 12 kwel and 20 kw of heat from the device, so they are talking power rates here.
    Here is another link to more info: http://www.research.ibm.com/labs/zurich/dsolar/product.html

    Note that the dimension given are in the metric system, and the author of the article botched the conversion, going to square yards instead of square feet.
    It is 10 meters high with a 40 m diameter dish.
    Of course I would like to see what wind loading a 40 m dish would take, in terms of thunderstorms and the like.

    1. Re:Found the IBM link. by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      Wind loading... why not just put it on an axle and let it spin to make even more kW per day and possibly even more cubic liters of water!!

  8. Re:Please fix the kW/day in the title by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's the first thing I saw. "generates 12KW" and the big red BS flag pops up. They do, deeper in the PR, say something about 2KWh per day electrical. But one look at this thing and I can't see how it can come close to cost of production of normal solar panels rolling off a production line, nor make up for the difference with its supposed synergistic design.

    I doubt many of these ever "see the light of day". At best, some third world niche.

  9. Pretty innovative...easy to mass produce. by Scottingham · · Score: 4, Insightful

    TFA is pretty poorly written, but the pictures are pretty awesome. IMHO the biggest innovation here is the use of those circular mirrors veruses some custom curved mirror that pretty much all existing parabolic-type solar arrays had used. These can be mass produced super cheaply so replacement is more about fixing individual components versus chucking the whole array. They are also likely able to fine tune each mirror to guide the sun towards the center the best. I wonder if they could actively change via computer control. The actual PV section is also pretty smart, as it is a relatively smaller footprint than unamplified PV arrays. Hopefully that'd translate to few materials and lower costs. These always bring up more questions though...like: What about stray reflections? Could they blind people or melt cars if placed in a parking lot (like the example given in TFA) What is the lifespan of those solar arrays if they're getting blasted with such high amounts of light. How fast would they fail if the coolant system ran out? Would it fail catastrophically?

  10. *SIGH* Units FAIL by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    God, just be done with it and convert it to horsepower per barn. That was good enough back in the day. Damned kids.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

  11. Desalinisation by steveha · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The article is pretty terrible on the details. It seems that this CPV device is intended to be built near the ocean, and use salt water for cooling; the water can then be run through a desalinization system.

    The hot water can then be used in an attached desalination system that creates drinkable water by passing itwater[sic] through a Gortex-like membrane.

    According to Wikipedia there are several desalinization processes available that use heated water and a membrane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desalination#Desalination_powered_by_waste_heat

    The article is vague on how the CPV system provides cooling, but the CPV system produces heat as a byproduct, and it is possible to use extra heat for cooling. There are refrigerators that run on propane, with no motors. (There is a sort of pumping of coolant that relies on gravity.

    There are a lot of places in the world that get lots of sunlight, are near salt water, and could use more fresh water. So this sounds like a good idea, but it isn't going to be installed everywhere.

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  12. Sources by TubeSteak · · Score: 2

    The UK press release is more informative.

    https://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/40912.wss
    http://www-03.ibm.com/press/uk/en/pressrelease/44972.wss

    There's also a video of a TED@IBM talk (which I haven't watched)
    http://fora.tv/2014/09/23/Solving_the_Energy_Crisis_One_Sunflower_at_a_Time

    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  13. Re:Building codes by rebelwarlock · · Score: 2

    Lucky for you, this stuff is nice and shiny, so it makes a good substitute for tin foil.

  14. Dimensional analysis please. by evo2 · · Score: 2

    Put off by the title. "12 kW on a sunny day" means something "12 kW/day" has nonsense dimensions.

  15. The Facts from IBM scientists on Sunflower by IBMResearch · · Score: 5, Informative

    Glad to see so much interest on Slashdot for our sunflower. I'd like to address a few misunderstandings and share with you how YOU can test one of our systems in your home town. 1. The standard commercial system will be available in 2017 for both heat and electricity, the water desalination will come later. 2. This presentation explains the science behind the sunflower and how it can also provide cooling: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/pdf/... By means of a thermally driven sorption chiller, cool air can also be produced. A sorption chiller is a device that converts heat into cooling via a thermal cycle applied to a liquid or solid sorption material. Adsorption chillers, with solid silica gel adsorbers and with water as a working fluid, can replace compression chillers, which place a burden on electrical grids in hot climates and contain working fluids that are harmful to the ozone layer. Although absorption (liquid sorption) systems are already available for combination with the HCPVT system, they provide less cooling output compared to low-temperature driving heat for the adsorption (solid sorption) systems under development at IBM. The systems can also be customized with a transparent back for urban installations. 3. This presentation highlights the regions and the commercial applications: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/pdf/... 4. Here is a YouTube video showing the prototype in Biasca, Switzerland http://youtu.be/JVB9_3IKIAE 5. The news was announced at a TED conference in San Francisco on Tuesday. You can watch the presentation here: http://fora.tv/2014/09/23/Solv...