Developers, IT Still Racking Up (Mostly) High Salaries

Hold on a minute by ranton · 2014-10-20 04:17 · Score: 5, Funny

How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages? I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.

--
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

Re:Hold on a minute by bluefoxlucid · 2014-10-20 04:22 · Score: 1

I find more amusing that some software developers are making $104,000, and there are more of them than managers making $200,000, therefor there are more software developers in the $103,000-$203,000 range than there are managers in said range.

--
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Re:Hold on a minute by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 04:30 · Score: 5, Interesting

It fits just fine, the question now becomes, "What would the wages be without them there as a controlling factor to suppress them?"
Nice attempt to sound smart while acting like a shill though. Unless you think companies like Infosys don't exist though, then enjoy living the dream.
Re:Hold on a minute by mc6809e · 2014-10-20 04:40 · Score: 2

And if the numbers for lawyers and physicians are any indication, the highest software developers are probably making their money in medical software or regulatory compliance software.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 04:42 · Score: 1

What do you want exactly? It's a job that requires just a bachelor's degree, and sometimes not even that. And you already make 3-4 times what a teacher with an advanced degree does, or a nurse.
Re:Hold on a minute by asliarun · 2014-10-20 04:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

I find more amusing that some software developers are making $104,000, and there are more of them than managers making $200,000, therefor there are more software developers in the $103,000-$203,000 range than there are managers in said range.
Software development, like (i guess) medicine, law, finance, etc., values expertise, skills, experience, and deep analytical ability. More so than many others where analytical ability is less valued. Besides, this leadership skills, client management skills, and project management skills are also valued, but they are equally valued in other industries as well.
That is, IMHO, we see the pattern we see. Highly skilled software developers, like highly skilled financial analysts/traders - transcend traditional salary and "perceived value" bands, and can often make far more money than even very senior counterparts in their company. However, conversely, other counterparts - i.e. software development managers with well rounded analytical and managerial skills are also very well regarded and paid accordingly.
There really is no reason why one has to feel snarky about either of these options. One can feel snobbish about individual skills (and being a non-manager), just as one can feel snooty about being high up in the corporate chain. And both positions are boorish, IMHO. Pride about individual skills is fine, and good, but do remember, there are very highly skilled craftsmen and blue collared workers and armed forces personnel by the thousands who get paid diddly squat compared to what software and financial guys get paid. We just got lucky and are enjoying the ride in the gravy train - and all because of the completely messed up way in which the market works (and assigns relative value to skills).
Re:Hold on a minute by Thanshin · 2014-10-20 04:45 · Score: 4, Funny

I knew I should have been a cyborg lawyer programmer. But I was afraid of ending up just doing cyborg lawyer maintenance.
Re:Hold on a minute by Rinikusu · 2014-10-20 04:49 · Score: 1

Depends on where you live, maybe. I can see wage depression here in Los Angeles. I'm loathe to go to SFO simply because of the sheer amount of douchebaggery that's up there, but then again, we have Hollywood here. Might not be much different.

--
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Re:Hold on a minute by cyberchondriac · 2014-10-20 05:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

1) Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric? There are good teachers and bad teachers.. even lousy teachers, there's nothing that special about their profession compared to many others. They are not beneficent deities, shaping our future via our children, though the rhetoric would have you believe that. It's just another angle for the whole, "think of the children" routine.
2) My sister-in-law is a teacher for a high school in NJ, and makes over $80k a year. And that's for 9 months out of the year. I just don't see public school teachers who belong to the NJEA doing all that badly. Private catholic school teachers maybe, but public teachers in a union have it pretty good around here.

--

Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
Re:Hold on a minute by SurfsUp · 2014-10-20 05:34 · Score: 1

How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages?
It depends on your definition of "our". Maybe try thinking "we geeks" instead of "me and my 319 million dear friends in the glorious US of A".

--
Life's a bitch but somebody's gotta do it.
Re:Hold on a minute by jedidiah · 2014-10-20 05:35 · Score: 1

Wages have been stagnant for awhile now. They might be an improvement on a Wal-Mart greeter but they seem to have not improved much in some places in the last 10 or so years.
Inflation is slowly eroding the apparent advantage.
Plus SFO and NYC are crazy expensive places to live. You just need more there.

--
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Re:Hold on a minute by afidel · 2014-10-20 05:42 · Score: 1

And you already make 3-4 times what a teacher with an advanced degree does, or a nurse.
In what world? I make less than 150% of the average for a teacher with a masters or an RN in my part of Ohio and I'm pretty highly compensated (technical manager at a larger company) with over 15 years experience in the field. If someone in IT is making 300-400% of those positions then they're either a complete rockstar at a tech firm with tons of free cash or those positions are woefully underpaid in that part of the country and that should probably be fixed.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Re:Hold on a minute by bluefoxlucid · 2014-10-20 05:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I was more interested in the wide and volatile range chosen. $100k is considered a big line to cross; to cross it twice is an immense step. It is as if we compared people making $20,000-$60,000 and found that more McDonalds workers are in that range than small business accountants--with McDonalds workers making $22k on average, and accountants making $58k.

--
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Re:Hold on a minute by nine-times · 2014-10-20 05:44 · Score: 1

I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.
That is lucky. Apparently, you're also very good at accepting straw man arguments, or else your own post would be troubling.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 05:46 · Score: 3, Interesting

I didn't say that were that important, just that being a teacher requires an advanced degree and they are paid a lot less than programmers. And they make a good example because no one can say that their jobs are pointless or don't contribute to society like they would if I had said, "what about the MFAs/liberal arts PhDs". In fact, what I was trying to say that there is nothing special about programmers. Why do they deserve to make 3-4 times what other professions that require similar hours, and equivalent or higher education, make? And your sister might make that, but the average salary for a teacher in the US (across all levels of experience) is close to $50k.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 05:49 · Score: 1

I'm just going by the numbers in the article, that salaries in the $100-200k range are common for programmers. And the average salary for a teacher in the US is about $50k. Even with conservative numbers, it is still at least 2x the salary on average, which is very substantial.
Re:Hold on a minute by mooingyak · 2014-10-20 05:54 · Score: 2

And your sister might make that, but the average salary for a teacher in the US (across all levels of experience) is close to $50k.
Going to quote a bit selectively from various spots for a second here...

My sister-in-law is a teacher for a high school in NJ, and makes over $80k a year.

If those high salaries are in Silicon Valley or New York, though, they might not seem as high as half the same rate would in Omaha, or Houston, or Raleigh.

Emphasis mine.
If the highly paid programmers are skewed towards certain high cost of living markets, then it's fairer to compare salaries against other professions in those same markets, and not nationwide averages.

--
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Re:Hold on a minute by lgw · 2014-10-20 05:55 · Score: 1

Brilliantly put - thanks! Software development is a world community, with people joining us from every nation in the world that has a credible CS program in any university. Far from being a race to the bottom, salaries remain high, and most devs these days live someplace where the money they spend in turn does wonders for the local economy (and local tax base).
Maybe it's just from high school in the 80s, but I'll always think of my community as "us geeks, who stand together against the jock menace".

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Re:Hold on a minute by lymond01 · 2014-10-20 06:09 · Score: 1

1) Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric? There are good teachers and bad teachers.. even lousy teachers, there's nothing that special about their profession compared to many others. They are not beneficent deities, shaping our future via our children
Yes. Yes, they are. I would argue that there are three groups of people who make the most difference in a child's future: their parents, their friends, and their teachers. If we spent more money on assuring only good teachers are in our schools, we'd be in better shape. $80K is a good salary, but it's not like that across the board.
Re:Hold on a minute by geekoid · 2014-10-20 06:17 · Score: 1

Degrees have never, and will never equate to salary for any industry.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Re:Hold on a minute by asliarun · 2014-10-20 06:19 · Score: 1

I was more interested in the wide and volatile range chosen. $100k is considered a big line to cross; to cross it twice is an immense step. It is as if we compared people making $20,000-$60,000 and found that more McDonalds workers are in that range than small business accountants--with McDonalds workers making $22k on average, and accountants making $58k.
Got it. Sorry, I misunderstood the point you were trying to make. And you are correct, of course.
Re:Hold on a minute by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 06:27 · Score: 3, Insightful

There certainly is something special about programmers - market demand. Every business in the world is becoming more and more dependent on using computers in their never-ending quest for productivity gains. Who is it who knows how to make those computers do what businesses want them to do? Programmers. Should the people who know how to provide those productivity gains be compensated with a share of said gains? Absolutely. Or did you think that businesses have some special dispensation from God that should give them this thing they want (e.g. more profits) without paying for it?
You seem to have the idea in your head that people should make what they "deserve", as if there were some almighty agent who says, "This person should make this much and no more but give that person a raise". If there is such a thing then it is called "the free market" - suck it up.
Re:Hold on a minute by __aaclcg7560 · 2014-10-20 06:37 · Score: 1

I'm loathe to go to SFO simply because of the sheer amount of douchebaggery
SFO != Silicon Valley
Forget SFO. Come to Silicon Valley. One recruiter told me that Silican Valley companies have to pay more in salary since all the young hipsters are heading for SFO.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 06:55 · Score: 1

The whole point of my post was to counter the guy that said he would be making more money if not for H1Bs. Tell that guy that there is such a thing as the free market, and he should suck it up when programmers can be hired cheaper from other countries. You are either pro market economies, and you should shut up about immigrants who will do your job for less money, or you are not, in which case why do programmers deserve more money than other jobs which provide similar societal value.
Re:Hold on a minute by __aaclcg7560 · 2014-10-20 07:04 · Score: 1

I take the express bus ($140 per month) and rent a 475 sft studio apartment for $1313 that I lived in for the last nine years. Neither traffic nor real estate is a big deal in my life. If you live a modest lifestyle and forget about keeping up with the Jones, Silicon Valley is quite affordable.
My relatives has a five-bedroom million-dollar home in Gilroy (an hour south of Silicon Valley). The living room is bigger than my apartment, the wet bar bigger than my kitchen. Very obscene. Having a BBQ while a mountain lion watches from the other side of a 20-foot tall chainlink fence can be nerve whacking.
Re: Hold on a minute by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 07:14 · Score: 1

It's what you do with whatever knowledge you have. Some knowledge is worth more. Some things can't be learned easily. Try teaching a teacher programming. Good luck.
Re:Hold on a minute by Tablizer · 2014-10-20 07:20 · Score: 1

Let's say you were right. If companies can comb the world for the top 10% of IT talent (skipping the 90% you say are junk), then roughly 90% of the IT work in the USA will be from those cherry-picked foreigners.
Thus, the 90% should die in the street? (Since by the same logic, the Walmart greeters and burger flippers will also be cherry-picked from abroad.)
Perhaps this mentality is why income inequality is increasing.
I'm I following your view correctly? Feel free to clarify.
Maybe as a society it's better to value jobs over stuff rather than torture and discard 90% of the population so that 10% can have $5 lawn chairs. That's a political choice, but at least voters should know what they are up against. Some conservatives claim "trickle down" works (rich spending trickles down to poor), other conservatives don't care if there is no trickle-down and want a hard-edged Darwinian meritocracy, Ayn Rand style.

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:Hold on a minute by shaitand · 2014-10-20 07:23 · Score: 1

The H1-B Visa holders are the ones who are making those high wages now.
Re:Hold on a minute by digsbo · 2014-10-20 07:42 · Score: 1

Thus, the 90% should die in the street?
He never said they should die in the street -- that's a BS characterization -- the implication there is they will get shuffled to the unemployment roles until such time as they get a different job and a lower wage. It's not unreasonable to say they should be paid less if they're producing less. It IS a global market, and if I'm less productive than a guy from Hyderabad, what is it about my geographic location that entitles me to 4x the pay?
Re:Hold on a minute by shaitand · 2014-10-20 07:46 · Score: 1

"I didn't say that were that important, just that being a teacher requires an advanced degree and they are paid a lot less than programmers."

The type of degree required for the job really isn't relevant. It's true, IT generally doesn't actually require a degree. But there are plenty of people working in IT with degrees, bachelors and masters degrees abound. The people who have them aren't generally any better at the job. If anything they generally have however much time they wasted on slow university learning subtracted from their years of experience. Things that universities dedicate entire courses to are material IT professionals are expected to pick up during the process of using that material to single handedly deploy a project due in 4-6 weeks. Or even figure out on the fly to resolve a problem with a 30 minute SLA. Rinse, repeat, over and over again.

The amount of money you wasted to be taught largely irrelevant material really really slowly and usually in such a manner that you are unable to actually apply it in unique ways to solve real problems shouldn't be a factor in what you make. IT is the oil that keeps a profit making machine running, so they get a piece of the profit left after the leeches (aka sales, senior management, stockholders, etc) take off their chunk.

Teachers generate zero profits. Everything they make is a charitable donation except at for profit institutions. Below university level they serve two functions, one is to be a babysitter, the other is to teach more or less the exact same material from a textbook over and over again, year after year. In a grade school or high school those might be the same textbooks for 10 years. Yes what they do is important but to be a highschool teacher you need to be able to read and comprehend the material in one subject at the grade level of the class being taught. There is no reason they SHOULD need an advanced degree. Anyone who got an A in the course in question is qualified to teach it.

Even some university courses aren't much different. Learn the latest textbook, comprehend it, regurgitate. The books just tend to cycle out more often but they only have to learn the differences.
Re:Hold on a minute by shaitand · 2014-10-20 08:05 · Score: 1

"If the highly paid programmers are skewed towards certain high cost of living markets, then it's fairer to compare salaries against other professions in those same markets, and not nationwide averages."

This is what everybody repeated when I lived in a more rural and lower paying market. It's not really as true as I was led to believe. It's even less true as time goes on. Things cost about the same in Home Depot, Walmart, and when buying from Amazon. Cars cost about the same, gas costs about the same, education costs the same, most everything costs about the same with the exception of housing and that isn't nearly so big a hit if you work in the city then live in suburbs like most people.

In rural Illinois you'd pay $500/month mortgage on a reasonable 3 bedroom home in a safe middle class neighborhood, in Dallas you'd pay maybe $700, in Albuquerque you'd pay $800, in Miami you'd pay $1200. So, the biggest gap there is $700/mo. That's $8,400 a year. You might pay up to $200/mo more on utilities (and that would be a massive and unlikely swing) so that is another $2400. $10,800 difference. If you are getting paid $50,000 a year in Omaha for a job I get $100,000 a year for in Dallas you most definitely are NOT making equivalent money after factoring cost of living. Not even close. You will have dramatically less disposable income.

On the flip side, you don't have to be nearly as good at what you do to stay employed in Omaha. There isn't nearly as much skilled competition.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 08:10 · Score: 2

Anyone who got an A in the course in question is qualified to teach it.
That's the kind of attitude that leads to terrible teachers. It really is not that easy. What do you think they do for two years in graduate school? Pedagogy is not a simple subject, and just because you know the material does not, in any way, mean that you can be an effective teacher. Also, if you think passing the course, or even excelling at the course, gives you the necessary content knowledge to effectively teach it, you are terribly mistaken. To be a really good teacher you need to have mastery of the entire discipline so that you understand where every class fits into the overall tableau. Not to mention the simple case of a student asking you a question that's not in the textbook (which is most of them).
Re:Hold on a minute by mooingyak · 2014-10-20 08:28 · Score: 2

In rural Illinois you'd pay $500/month mortgage on a reasonable 3 bedroom home in a safe middle class neighborhood, in Dallas you'd pay maybe $700, in Albuquerque you'd pay $800, in Miami you'd pay $1200. So, the biggest gap there is $700/mo. That's $8,400 a year.
I paid around $1300 / month to rent a 2 bedroom apartment roughly 30 miles east of Manhattan. Was a decent but not great neighborhood. And this was 10 years ago. Mortgage + taxes for a decent sized house in NYC suburbs can easily run you over $3k / month. Now your biggest gap is $2500 / month, or over $30k a year. Other expenses add up as well. I've often joked that the nice thing about being a tourist from the NYC area is you barely notice how much you're getting gouged for food at tourist traps. It's a comparatively small markup.

--
William of Ockham had no beard. The most likely explanation is that it was chewed off by squirrels every morning.
Re:Hold on a minute by aztracker1 · 2014-10-20 08:33 · Score: 2

It's even more broad than that... if you look at housing, even renting in/near LA, San Francisco, New York, etc... it can be much more than that to live there. Just the difference in rent between where I am in Phoenix, and the area in SF I was looking at is about 25-30k/year difference in rent alone. Let alone restaurants and the like. Sure, large chains will be very similar in pricing for common goods, but the cost of food and housing are a lions share of expenses, and can vary dramatically.

--
Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
Re:Hold on a minute by wrook · 2014-10-20 08:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

There is a big difference between teachers and programmers. I know because I've done both jobs. Teaching is the more difficult one to do well. Good programming requires rare skills and an ability to concentrate more than most people can imagine. Good teaching does not need any unusual technical skill. The material you are teaching is really quite easy compared to what programmers have to contend with. The tricky bit is turning around lives that have been destroyed by circumstance and incompetent parents. Excellent programming requires a top notch mind and a devotion to learning. Excellent teaching requires a damn near miracle of people skills and good judgement.
Here's the kicker. If you staff your programming team with poor performers, chances are (sooner or later) your business will die because of them. The complexity that bad programmers add to a problem when they are coding eventually becomes so heavy that you just can't move forward. If you staff your school with poor performers, the students still graduate. The schools still operate. In fact, you can cut the budget of a school just about as far as you want, driving out any teacher that cares about money. The students still graduate. The school suffers in that it becomes a center for incarcerating delinquents, but the students still graduate. You just keep lowering the standards and society pays the hidden price.
A gifted programmer can name his price. A gifted teacher? Gets lost in the shuffle. His only reward is what he makes of it.
Re:Hold on a minute by shaitand · 2014-10-20 08:58 · Score: 1

"Pedagogy is not a simple subject, and just because you know the material does not, in any way, mean that you can be an effective teacher"

The vast majority of teachers do nothing more than follow along with a textbook. Some paraphrase the material, some simply assign it as reading. Then they'll assign the questions at the end of the chapter as homework. Perhaps they'll have some handout assignments from the teacher version of the text. ANYONE can do that provided they themselves understand the material.

"To be a really good teacher you need to have mastery of the entire discipline so that you understand where every class fits into the overall tableau."

Who said anything about good teachers? But understanding where each class fits in is simply a matter of having worked through the material a few times. Teach the same text book two or three times and you'll have it all memorized and know where every class fits in. You might change it up a bit, skip things, alter things. At that point you are an expert. None of that has anything to do with advanced degrees. The fact that you are "qualified" to teach literally any course with any masters degree regardless of the relevance of your major is proof of that.

"Also, if you think passing the course, or even excelling at the course, gives you the necessary content knowledge to effectively teach it, you are terribly mistaken."

Who said anything about teaching effectively? That has little to do with most of the schools in the US. It means you had the ability to read and comprehend the material. Which means you could do so again and regurgitate that material for students.

"Not to mention the simple case of a student asking you a question that's not in the textbook (which is most of them)."

Read above where I indicated understanding the material, which an A student has done.
Re:Hold on a minute by weiserfireman · 2014-10-20 08:59 · Score: 1

Part of what determines pay is
1. how difficult is it to find qualified people
2. does the position help you make more money, or is it an expense
Software developers help companies make more money. It is the Add in Value-Add. They are the equivalent of the machines in a machine shop. Without them, what is the point in being in business. If you are a software company you pay what you need to pay, to recruit and retain the best developers you can.
Teachers work for a government agency. It won't turn a profit. The agency collect tax dollars for existing and teachers are an expense. There really isn't any competition to recruit the best ones. People pay lip service to the idea of recruiting the best ones, but they really don't. Education wise, it compares to nurses and architects. Benefit wise, it is one of the best in the country. Some parts of the country have trouble recruiting new teachers. But others don't . A school district will never pay more than required to have a teacher in the classroom, talent be damned. In fact, I think school districts would rather hire fresh young faces out of college, and pay them starting wages than experienced master teachers who will cost them 2x-3x as much.
Re:Hold on a minute by ranton · 2014-10-20 09:01 · Score: 1

I've always wondered why software companies don't open a branch office somewhere besides the 10 highest cost of living areas in the USA to hire people cheaper. Why do all the companies try to poach the same few programmers who want to live in Silicon Valley? There's a vast, untapped talent base that are good programmers but don't want to live in big cities.
The reason is that there really isn't a vast untapped talent base that are good programmers but don't want to live in big cities. There is a small and dispersed talent base that are good programmers but don't want to live in big cities.
Many, although not all, of the difficulties a company has to deal with with off-shoring development also exist when hiring remote teams in Oklahoma. And the talent simply is not there even if you put in the effort. Talent tends to gravitate around universities, or at least the largest city near good universities (people may go to school in Urbana-Champaign or Ithaca, but will likely move to Chicago or New York after college).

--
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Re:Hold on a minute by weiserfireman · 2014-10-20 09:03 · Score: 1

The chart didn't say that those kinds of wages were common for programmers.
It said for people in the $100-200k salary range, programmers were common.
there is a big difference. $100k+ jobs aren't "common".
Re:Hold on a minute by witherstaff · 2014-10-20 10:58 · Score: 1

For tech oriented startups location ends up being a big deal. You have to appeal to investors and being in the middle of a cow pasture is a deal breaker. Also from a population percentage there are not as many angel investors around to get something even going. Then staff like having entertainment options that big cities can offer.
There are a few incubators in some of the smaller cities that are still running. Offhand I've read of them in Iowa, Philadelphia, there's even one in Detroit. Not high cost areas. Not the easiest place to attract funding or talent.
Re:Hold on a minute by Ryanrule · 2014-10-20 11:12 · Score: 1

wages should be even higher. thats how.
Re:Hold on a minute by BringsApples · 2014-10-20 11:29 · Score: 1

Why do teachers always rank as an all important metric?
Not that I think they're all important, but they have a significantly higher level of involvement in the local state of things than you appear to be giving them credit for. There are good and bad teachers, true, but the over all significance of their job is one of the most important in any society; certainly up there with police, fire fighters, city workers... (if you don't think that these jobs are more important than programing, then you're fooling yourself)

I agree that the old "think of the children" has been used in many incorrect ways, but that doesn't mean that it's not a valid statement. When it comes to teaching children the difference between "do" and "do not" it's extremely important that the teacher be informed, and able to inform in a way that applies to each kid - this isn't as easy as it seems like it should be. However having a care about this, makes the difference between people growing up as civilized people, capable of getting along with others, and barbaric people incapable of almost anything that doesn't involve them being given something.

--
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
Re:Hold on a minute by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 11:49 · Score: 1

The fact that you are "qualified" to teach literally any course with any masters degree regardless of the relevance of your major is proof of that.
Just to clarify, that is only the case for elementary education. In middle school and up you have to have a degree in the subject (or at least something specific like " education") and pass the subject Praxis in order to be qualified to teach it.
Re:Hold on a minute by Gorobei · 2014-10-20 12:51 · Score: 1

Software developers help companies make more money. It is the Add in Value-Add. They are the equivalent of the machines in a machine shop. Without them, what is the point in being in business. If you are a software company you pay what you need to pay, to recruit and retain the best developers you can.
Most software developers are not in pure software development companies. They are in large companies doing something like fortune-500 stuff or selling ads (Google) or moving goods (Amazon.)
Very few companies think "let's hire more developers, they add value!" Hiring a developer is a last resort when the tech you have doesn't do what you need. It's like needing to hire a lawyer - you don't want to do it, but it's the cheapest way to achieve your goal.
Re:Hold on a minute by ediron2 · 2014-10-20 14:09 · Score: 1

Well put. As long as we insist that the most viable metrics are economic, things won't improve. Quality can be shaved, paychecks can be squeezed, headcounts can be reduced, pollution can be diluted, teachers can be dissed... all introduce hidden costs.
The only great teachers I had that stuck with their crappy paychecks were second incomes into households (a working spouse), retired military (so they also had a pension), and a couple of magnificent lunatics that knew they were getting screwed but cared too much about teaching to step away. Kudos to every one of them, but like that bad 'Karma' remark by Microsoft CEO Nadella, they deserve better.
Re:Hold on a minute by luis_a_espinal · 2014-10-20 15:16 · Score: 2

The guys getting 250k a year from Google are basically the SF version of high-end guys making 120-140 a year here in FL. Same take home and everything.
Bingo. This was my #1 reason I forego the idea of relocating from SoFla to the Valley. One thing that I would add is that said programmer in Tampa can buy a *real* house in a decent school district as a head-of -household with with a stay-at-home spouse. In San Francisco, forget it. The equivalent programmer could only afford a whole in a wall, or have to have his/her spouse work in the same field just to be able to buy a *real* house in a good school district.
Denver, Dallas or Seattle are much better options to relocate, money-wise.
Re:Hold on a minute by luis_a_espinal · 2014-10-20 15:24 · Score: 1

That would be fair to say, if we (Americans) were free to emigrate to the countries that H1-Bs are being brought in from. We're not. The markets for labor and capital are both far from free (see 'capital controls' regarding the later).
There is some truth is that H1-B influx puts a damp in job hunting. But, from experience, if a programmer feels constantly threatened by that influx to the point of seeing his salary (or even employment opportunities) nosediving, I would question said's person's skills.
The real good engineers in India either come here already in scholarships or transition very quickly from H1-B to resident status. And these are not the majority. The bulk of H1-B are just average/below average (with a good chunk being just atrocious coders) with very little work experience (most of it limited to web development), facing cultural barriers in communication and delivery of work.
This is not a diss or intended as an insult to them. It is just a function of many things that affect their society (and I suspect that the quality of work will improve over the decades.)
If you (the generic "you") are threatened by that, by the current quality of work presented by offshore/H1-B teams, then you are replaceable and possibly not that great at software/IT. Don't blame them. Blame your skills.
If you know your shit well, you will have no shortage of $$$ and work. That is a fact. Do the type of work that cannot be easily offshored/replaced/commoditized, and you will be fine.
Re:Hold on a minute by senatorpjt · 2014-10-20 15:31 · Score: 1

There are probably a lot of programmers in big cities who want to get out. There are a lot of appealing things about a big city - if you're 20 years old and single. People outgrow clubbing and "entertainment" and sometimes want to start families. Then again, nobody in SF would hire anyone over 30 - we won't work 80 hours a week on salary just because the place has a Foosball table and free soda.
Re:Hold on a minute by russotto · 2014-10-20 16:14 · Score: 1

In rural Illinois you'd pay $500/month mortgage on a reasonable 3 bedroom home in a safe middle class neighborhood, in Dallas you'd pay maybe $700, in Albuquerque you'd pay $800, in Miami you'd pay $1200. So, the biggest gap there is $700/mo. That's $8,400 a year.

In suburban NJ you'd pay $2000. Plus another $1000 in taxes. In Silicon Valley you can double or triple that mortgage payment. You just haven't included the highest-priced markets.
Re:Hold on a minute by JustSomeProgrammer · 2014-10-21 05:39 · Score: 1

I have a 1 bedroom in Manhattan which when my brother walked in he laughed about how small it is, but honestly it isn't a bad size. I pay $2600 a month. Food is roughly 2x as much here as it is back home in Pittsburgh as well. True Home Depot's prices aren't that different, but I don't shop every month for Home Depot stuff. Food and rent I do. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not bitching. I'm just pointing out that there are markets that are much higher cost of living than you expect. And driving into New York City is a bit difficult to say the least.
Re:Hold on a minute by Bengie · 2014-10-21 06:31 · Score: 1

With the strength of five gorillas! But, since you're that strong, if you try to pet a kitten, you'd crush it.
Re:Hold on a minute by Meski · 2014-10-21 16:49 · Score: 1

Why is this making me think of chair-throwing?
Re:Hold on a minute by mgcarley · 2014-10-22 05:10 · Score: 1

[nitpick]
You can't transition from H1-B to resident/green-card.
H1-B is a non-immigrant visa and is not a "path to immigration". It has an expiry date and AFAIK is not renewable. It does not entitle the holder to many things that someone on an immigrant-path visa would get, such as a drivers license or SSN (though due to driving laws, many states have a "temporary" drivers license, valid for up to 3 years for those on visas including but not limited to H, L & J).
The genuinely good immigrants come to the US on something like an E or O visa, which, among a couple of other categories, *are* considered a path to a green card.
[/nitpick]
It's a big status thing when your company relocates you to the US (even on a temporary basis), but it doesn't necessarily mean you're any good. I say this as a native-English speaking white male who just so happened to come to the US (I'm not on H1-B) after living in India and some other countries before that.
I definitely do not feel that India(ns) present any realistic competition when it comes to my work, partly because I'm reasonably good at what I do and partly because I'm not in software.

--
Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
Re:Hold on a minute by beastofburdon · 2014-10-22 06:38 · Score: 1

Your teachers are extremely lucky. Starting salary for teachers in West Virginia is around 20-25 thousand, and it doesn't go up quickly either. There are people working for McDonlads that make more than our teachers.
Re: Hold on a minute by beastofburdon · 2014-10-22 06:41 · Score: 1

My computer science teacher in high school didn't even know how to program. She could follow the teaching book enough to give us assignments, but anything that was not an example in said book mystified her.

How many really make $140k ? by Rigel47 · 2014-10-20 04:23 · Score: 2

It seems like there are a slew of jobs for people making $80 - $120k with a small sprinkling of jobs between $120 and $140k for very senior and skilled people. But how many true "developers" make more than $140k?

Re: How many really make $140k ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 04:25 · Score: 1

Every senior developer in silicon valley should make more than 140k. It is all cost of living.

The Chart by tquasar · 2014-10-20 04:25 · Score: 1

Seems the entire chart is not displayed.

Where should I apply? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 04:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

$39,000 per year as a Computer Programmer/Analyst here. If you were ever thinking of going into local government just to "get your foot in the door", DON'T. You might not have a leg to stand on.

Re:Where should I apply? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 04:38 · Score: 1

You should put your resume up on /.'s owner dice.com .
Re:Where should I apply? by MightyYar · 2014-10-20 04:52 · Score: 2

Depending on where you are employed, government jobs also give you a pension that would be worth around $1 million if you had to buy it as an annuity.
I assumed a retirement age of 55 after working for 30 years to get your full pension. I assumed your salary would not increase over time and that the annuity would track cost-of-living. I assumed half-salary upon retirement, for life, with a spousal benefit upon your death. These assumptions are very conservative and probably seriously understate the real value of the pension, especially if it includes a health benefit.

--
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Re:Where should I apply? by ErichTheRed · 2014-10-20 04:56 · Score: 1

" If you were ever thinking of going into local government just to "get your foot in the door", DON'T. You might not have a leg to stand on."
I agree that state/local/federal government salaries are lower compared to the private sector. But one thing I've been thinking about after almost 20 years in private employment is the enviable job security. I now have 2 little kids, and it's a very different calculus when you're talking about a young single guy vs. someone who has all these responsibilities now. In the public sector, there's very little uncompensated overtime, you have a union that fights for yearly nearly guaranteed salary increases, and you most likely don't have to worry about your job being offshored. I live literally right next to a state university, and am always debating on whether to take the 20-30% pay-cut, basically cashing in my chips and taking a job that I can most likely keep until I retire. (Funny thing is this -- suitable positions only open up once in a great while, chiefly because people are choosing the stable route, so I only get to debate this topic once every 7-10 years or so!)
Things are different for everyone. Some people choose travelling 300+ days out of the year as IT consultants making triple my salary. Some people work for non-profits for a pittance because they care about the cause. And some people choose stability. I think that's another thing driving a lot of the variation in salaries.
Re:Where should I apply? by Chris453 · 2014-10-20 06:04 · Score: 1

"In the public sector, there's very little uncompensated overtime, you have a union that fights for yearly nearly guaranteed salary increases, and you most likely don't have to worry about your job being offshored
You must be talking about state/local governments. Federal workers have been getting vilified by the congress critters at every opportunity and in the past 4 years we have gotten 1 pay increase (of 1% - whoopee!). Unfortunately the cost of living has been going up every year so in effect we have less buying power. Congress continues to compare Apples to Oranges to justify paying federal workers less. An example would be comparing an entry level employee in the private sector to a position in the government that requires a Master's degree and 20 year experience. No joke, Ryan did just that. The job security is great, but things aren't as rosy as you think on this side of the fence.
Re:Where should I apply? by Nexzus · 2014-10-20 06:45 · Score: 1

I work at a regional government (analogous to county) in western Canada, not a programmer, but in IT. Our programmers start off at about $68,000 per year. The municipal governments are similar (a gentleman's agreement to avoid poaching/hopping ship)

--
Karma: Can only be portioned out by the Cosmos.
Re:Where should I apply? by MightyYar · 2014-10-20 06:58 · Score: 1

Then indeed that sounds like a low salary. Except that those states without pensions also tend to have low costs of living, so what do I know?

--
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Re:Where should I apply? by Ryanrule · 2014-10-20 11:15 · Score: 1

if you have a few years under your belt you can take your skills into consulting and triple your wage.

Which Managers? by Thanshin · 2014-10-20 04:30 · Score: 1

One information I'd be most interested in is "What did the those managers do before managing, by salary range."

To answer questions like:
- Is it "better"* to become a manager after already having a high IT salary? Or to start from the bottom as a manager who's studied essentially management.

*: "Better" in monetary terms, of course. Obviously being a manager after having been in IT makes one a better human being; morally and intellectually superior to other kinds of manager.

Re:Which Managers? by Tablizer · 2014-10-20 07:36 · Score: 1

Or to start from the bottom as a manager who's studied essentially management
Oh Gawd, those are often the worse: idealistic, clueless about the domain, and experience-free

--
Table-ized A.I.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 04:34 · Score: 2

That's not really the point though. $100k+ for an undergraduate degree (if that) is no pittance. In fact, it puts you in the top 3% in the United States. Not the vaunted 1%, for sure, but certainly no reason to complain.

Clearly.... by Quinnadad · 2014-10-20 04:40 · Score: 1

...I'm employed at a bargain then. My salary of 40k w/benefits and company car must not measure up to their standards.

--
"Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me." - Pastor Niemller

Re:Clearly.... by lgw · 2014-10-20 06:02 · Score: 3, Informative

If you develop software for $40k, you should be looking. If you're willing to relocate and aren't fresh out of school, you'll certainly double, maybe triple that. All the big companies are hiring now. Make sure your resume is visible on LinkedIn (and maybe that Dice site, I guess) - I know my team is searching the nation for anyone qualified and willing to relocate, and we're not alone in that!

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by hibiki_r · 2014-10-20 04:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's precisely because of that fact that you see some silicon valley companies open up show in middle america, when they can get the senior people for the $120-$130 range

Uneven distribution of talent? by ErichTheRed · 2014-10-20 04:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

I'm in systems, not in dev, but the two groups have similar payscales. Dev tends to get paid a little more, especially in positions that require a high level of skill. However, I've seen huge variations in salaries, quality of work environment and skill level of employee that contribute to some of the trends in the data. Offshoring and visa programs also do really cut into the low end of IT and development...we're having trouble finding good junior sysadmins simply because ITIL and stuff has killed any real learning that can be done on a helpdesk job in a large company.

I would think that the fact that devs are better represented in the higher bracket is due to a couple factors:
- If you're some "rockstar developer" working in a niche specialty doing stuff that only a few people know, you're going to be paid well. We're talking stuff like embedded systems, fields with crazy business requirements that only a few people understand, etc., not necessarily the latest buzzwords and fads.
- If you work in investment banking as a quant, you're going to be paid very well. Your life will most likely suck because you'll be working all the time.
- Companies who have outsourced a lot of their basic devs are going to keep their most valuable ones in house, so average pay will go up for them.
- Also, it's not popular to mention, but there is a HUGE market for consultants to parachute in and fix the messes that outsourcers and offshore dev teams have made. Those guys get paid very well indeed.

My advice to anyone who wants to work in IT is this -- there will ALWAYS be downward pressure on salaries. People who live within their means and save aren't going to be as badly affected by the shifts we're seeing. In systems, we're seeing this in the form of cloud computing taking away routine admin jobs or making them less lucrative. The solution for those who can make the shift is to move into a systems engineering and architecture job where you can tell the developers what's not going to work with their cloud implementation. I don't know what the answer is for development, but in both "career tracks" the bottom rungs are getting hollowed out and it's not good for long term succession planning!

Also, don't forget that those high salaries are offset by California and New York cost of living. I live outside of NYC, and my salary would be considered amazing in, say, upstate NY or the Midwest, but it's just comfortable here.

Re:Uneven distribution of talent? by Tablizer · 2014-10-20 07:29 · Score: 1

If you are making $80k a year, you should not have to bank $30k a year into savings in expectation of it spontaneously going to zero on a regular basis...
Welcome to IT: you get to do a high-dive off the fad board sometimes, but may land face first.

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:Uneven distribution of talent? by Erikderzweite · 2014-10-20 09:03 · Score: 1

I've been told once that the managers in the US love to have indebted employees as they will put up with all kind of crap being thrown at them.
You can't really force a dev to show up on the Weekends co clear the mess you've created if such dev is able to quit any time and has enough on his savings account to look for a more fitting job for at least a year without having to change his standards of living. And if a team loses a somewhat important dev in the middle of blowing the deadline then the manager is in trouble himself. So it should be basic logic to treat such a guy well.
On the other hand, someone who has to pay a loan for the house, for the car, for all the other fancy stuff he's leasing and lives from paycheck to paycheck will do anything to keep his job. No need to give him a raise, he'll be working anyway.
Re:Uneven distribution of talent? by im_thatoneguy · 2014-10-20 13:01 · Score: 1

My advice to anyone who wants to work in IT is this -- there will ALWAYS be downward pressure on salaries.
I think this is good for everyone, not just IT. I had a job on the side for 3 years that was paying buko bucks. I socked every dollar into stocks and launching a side business. Now all of my profits from my side business are gravy since I invested in myself and others. And long after that job is a distant memory I'll still be making money from those paychecks.
I see a lot of people get a really sweet job and instead of treating it like a lottery winning, they treat it like a permanent source of income. Then that sweet deal disappears and they've raised their living expenses so that they have to find a replacement or go broke.
My little windfall has helped me fully fund my retirement account and it's given me a side job that I could parlay into a full time gig to fall back on if I ever was completely unemployed.
The long term trend as far as I'm concerned is near complete unemployment. If you don't own capital in one of the large corporations who own the robots and get a share of their profits you'll be broke looking for a job. You can already see that today. People always complain about how companies only care about their stock holders not their employees. It's true. They'll happily fire you and hire someone for 1/10th the price overseas if it increase their profits. But those profits don't just evaporate, they go said shareholders. So if your company is going to outsource your job, you might as well profit from their increased profit margin.

nursing? really? by jehan60188 · 2014-10-20 04:45 · Score: 1

I had no idea nurses were so well compensated

Bad statistics by arielCo · 2014-10-20 04:46 · Score: 4, Informative

Telling me the composition by career of the top earners is as useful as telling me their composition by handedness - you're telling the story backwards.

Career-wise, it would be useful to tell us the likelihood of making each earning bracket *by career*.

--
This post contains no rudeness or derision of any kind. All arguments are friendly. Terms and exclusions may apply.

Re:Bad statistics by StripedCow · 2014-10-20 06:10 · Score: 1

In related news, most people earning over $1M through the development of an iOS app have the profession: software developer.

--
If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
Re:Bad statistics by nine-times · 2014-10-20 07:32 · Score: 1

Career-wise, it would be useful to tell us the likelihood of making each earning bracket *by career*.
Of course, depending on how you break it down, that might not tell you what you think it will. Like "Most likely to make millions of dollars per year" might give you top careers like:
* Heir to grandfather's fortune
* NFL Quarterback
* Billionaire philanthropist
* Lottery winner
Sure, with those careers, you're pretty much guaranteed to be rich. But what are the chances that you'll get one of those careers? If you wanted to try to plot your career path, it'd probably be better to look at the most common jobs that are most likely to pay well. So there are a lot of physicians making a lot of money. If you set out to become a physician, your chances of getting rich are better than if you set out to be a lottery winner.
Of course, there's another problem. These are the top earners right now, but we don't know what things will look like in 10 years. If you're 18 and trying to figure out what to do with your life, then being a physician would seem to be a great choice. Hypothetically, if there were medical breakthroughs in the next 10 years that completely cure all diseases and health problems, then you might find you get out of medical school without much of a career lined up.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by tjb · 2014-10-20 04:47 · Score: 1

Working as a FTE of Megacorp and making 140k+? Zero to few

????

At most tier 1 companies in Silicon Valley (Apple/Google/Facebook/Intel/etc.), pretty much every dev with more than 5 years experience will be making over 140K in salary + bonus + equity (likely far more, actually).

Confirmed.. by modi123 · 2014-10-20 04:48 · Score: 4, Funny

If those high salaries are in Silicon Valley or New York, though, they might not seem as high as half the same rate would in Omaha, or Houston, or Raleigh.

Confirmed - as a Nebraskan $207,000 appears high and desirable.

Particular Skillset? by HideyoshiJP · 2014-10-20 04:48 · Score: 5, Funny

"In other words, it seems like a good time to be in IT, provided you have a particular skillset."
Oh, I have a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career...

Re:How many really make $140k ? by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 04:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you consider that poverty level then there is something wrong with you. I don't care where you live, $100k is enough money that you don't have to worry about your day to day life. Maybe you can't buy a second sports car or live in that sweet downtown loft, but you won't have the kind of financial insecurity that the majority of people in the US do.

Midwest by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 05:13 · Score: 1

I am in the midwest earning slight below $100k working 40-45 hours a week as a team lead for software developers. I am not sure what this translates to in NY or California, but $200k will buy you a nice house on a quarter acre of land.

Re:Midwest by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2014-10-20 06:03 · Score: 1

Probably around $200k-250k per year. From what I can tell to maintain my current lifestyle with a similar wage to yours in one of those high expense areas would require that level of pay. I find it hard to believe that I would be able to afford a half acre plot with an ~1900 sq. ft. house with a back yard that backs up a 10 acre city park with playground and woods in any of those areas. This also neglects things like outdoor activities like hunting, fishing, and camping which I do a lot of and unless I am out in the boondocks of NY or CA (not where the high paying jobs are) I doubt I would be able to drive 15 minutes to do those

--
Time to offend someone
Re:Midwest by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 06:46 · Score: 1

I live in a major metro area in the middlest middle of the center of the middle of the midwest.
I bought a house in the suburbs. 2100 square feet of finished living space (2 stories), a full walk-out basement (probably another 700 square feet once I finish it), on a 9000 square foot lot. 4 bedrooms (2 are pretty small, though), 2 full/1 half bathrooms and a 3/4 rough-in (shower, no tub) in the basement.
$204k. The payments are substantial, but not uncomfortable, on my salary (between $50-60k).
Oh, and my commute is 12 miles each way. It takes 15 minutes in moderate traffic, and 25 minutes in heavy traffic.
There's not enough money in all of California or New York City to get me to move there.
Re:Midwest by lamer01 · 2014-10-20 08:22 · Score: 1

In NY Metro that is a minimum of $575K if you choose to not live in a questionable neighborhood. And, property taxes would vary from $8K (CT) to $20K (Westchester or NJ).

Re:How many really make $140k ? by ArhcAngel · 2014-10-20 05:25 · Score: 1

WOW! The fact that you missed the whole point of my comment (entitled E/W coast Millennials who think posting selfies on Twitter is worth 1/2 mil) and the insightful ranking means reading comprehension here is at an all time low. My post totally agreed with yours you just failed to grasp its true content.

--
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K

Re: How many really make $140k ? by HeckRuler · 2014-10-20 05:43 · Score: 1

Anyone looking for a $150K range senior developer/CTO with a specialization in TCP/IP routing and filtering technologies?
. . . In Davenport Iowa?

If you have ties to the area, and have the skill and experience for a high paying job, there aren't a whole lot of options available to you.

On the flip side, getting highly skilled professionals to move out to the middle of cornsville is also a little tough.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by __aaclcg7560 · 2014-10-20 05:45 · Score: 1

I know a guy who made so much money as a software developer that the accounting department had to call him every quarter to remind him to deposit his paychecks so they can close the books. (This was before direct deposit became widespread.) He lived a modest lifestyle that was a step up from his college days, bought few toys and invested his spare cash.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by afidel · 2014-10-20 05:51 · Score: 1

Hmm, I actually felt bad for the guy who ran the NYC office at my previous employer, he made $115k a year and to be able to afford a three bedroom with a yard he had a two+ hour each way commute to work. He was driving a ten+ year old car and barely managing to save enough to put his kids through school, his own retirement fund was essentially nonexistent. He wasn't wanting for food, but the same salary here in Cleveland has you living fairly well with much more wiggle room.

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

Re:Voter Recruitment Commissioned by NPR by Average · 2014-10-20 06:00 · Score: 1

Basically every H-1B->citizen voter is, leaving ethnicity/immigrant status completely aside, a college-educated, urban-area, younger voter. I'm not sure they vote much differently than anyone else checking those boxes.

Pffft by DaMattster · 2014-10-20 06:12 · Score: 1

I earn 72,000 as a regional truck truck driver and I have SO much less stress and NO on-call. I'm home on weekends and if my girlfriend's son has a school event, I can literally ask for one of my routes to take me by the school so I just park the truck and attend. If we want to do a family dinner during the week, I can also get routed to stop by the house. I think my girlfriend and her son like me more now that they see me less ;-) Leaving IT was one of the best life's decisions I've ever made. IT turned me into a monster. My girlfriend says I'm like a totally new and better person.

Re:Pffft by Erikderzweite · 2014-10-20 09:19 · Score: 1

You have interesting labour laws in the US. I am (as a software engineer) officially not allowed to work more than 10 hours a day. If I do so, the company is obliged to pay for the taxi home. It's kind of a tough rule especially if you get caught in solving a tricky problem on a regular basis :-) Work on the Weekends and official holidays is not allowed as well: I can't even get into the building without a special permission by the management. And we are basically forced to take vacations, 30 days per year.
It comes at a price, of course: the taxes in Germany are pretty high and the wages are somewhat lower. Still, wouldn't want to swap our system for the US's.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 06:13 · Score: 1

That's the way it is in DC, too; at $98K, With a 2-bed apartment in a mediocre neighborhood with an hour commute to work, a 7 year old car, and a minimal 401(k) (7.5%), I'm just barely in the black.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by geekoid · 2014-10-20 06:20 · Score: 1

Any that contract for 70 ot more an hour.

--
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Or you live in San Francisco by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 06:20 · Score: 1

...where subsidized "low income housing" can still easily cost $3,500 per month. A one-way public transit commute from KSFO to downtown costs almost $9. Throughout the US, health insurance that actually covers common accidents and/or illnesses throughout the year with a minimal deductible can cost more than $20,000 per year for a family of three.

Cost of living is the sole determinant of whether a salary is poverty-level or not, and a few of the major cities have that figure in a runaway ascent right now.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by nine-times · 2014-10-20 06:29 · Score: 1

It's not below the "poverty level", but $100k isn't exactly "rolling in it" if you're living in NYC. It's enough for a single person to live in a good apartment in a pretty good neighborhood, but you're not talking about a second sports car for a "sweet downtown loft". $100k is still in the range where you're probably just hoping your tiny Brooklyn apartment's rent doesn't go up, because if it does, you don't know where you're going to be able to move to.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by HeckRuler · 2014-10-20 06:32 · Score: 2

He's probably modded up, in part, because people disagree with your charicature of all young people as "entitled masses". Another part of his modding could be the obvious internal conflict in your post.

While the "entitled masses" on the E/W coast might find $100K to be poverty level, somehow that's comparable to $100K in Houston makes a comfortable living. Despite the fact that $100K is a comfortable living in all locations and those with a sense of entitlement will think it not enough in all locations.

In short, you can take your agism and tribe-ism and go fuck yourself.

Re:nursing? really? by lgw · 2014-10-20 06:35 · Score: 1

There's been a real shortage of RNs for over a decade now (there are various skill levels in nursing, but an RN is as much work as a non-specialist doctor, really). Supply and demand.

--
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.

Cyborg lawyer here by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 06:45 · Score: 1

As a developer who practiced law for 4 years on top of developing for 10 (currently developing again since Jan 2013) I can tell you that:
-the legal profession is mostly a wasteland. Getting a law degree and passing the bar guarantees you nothing but a pile of debt. Even if you're successful and lucky enough to land a rare biglaw job, the burnout rate is extremely high. And even if you excel, most firms are generally done with you after 10 years unless you're a rainmaker. But that isn't a problem for the vast majority of attorneys who didn't make biglaw are barely scraping by (doing the aptly named "shitlaw"). A lot of them end up working as public defenders and other low level government positions for 40-50k a year. And the competition for these positions is extremely stiff.
-there is extremely high demand for developers in the 80-120k range, even in places that are relatively far removed from the big cities. I'm rarely out of work for long and I have little difficulty bouncing around as much as I wish. And the salaries are always good.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by Rob+Riggs · 2014-10-20 07:03 · Score: 1

You can made decent money outside the big tech areas, in the smaller cities where quality of life tends to be higher. The trade-off is that you have to be willing to uproot and move to a completely different small city to chase other job opportunities. The demand for tech workers (and the commensurate pay) exists -- they just are not concentrated in a small area. But if you are unwilling to move (and your potential employer knows this), then they have a huge advantage when its comes to negotiating salary.

--
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause

History answers [Hold on a minute] by Tablizer · 2014-10-20 07:09 · Score: 1

How does this fit into my worldview where H1-B Visa holders are taking all of our jobs and lowering all of our wages? I'm just lucky I am easily able to ignore evidence that I don't like, or else this article would be troubling.

Simple. IT has proven to be highly cyclical based on past events. Good times today don't necessarily mean good times tomorrow. The H1-B program has no guarantees that the visa workers will go home if bad times hit.

The H1-B program is not based on any objective measurement of "shortage" and does not significantly respond to changes in demand. (I've personally lived through this after the "dot-com" crash.)

Further, it has harmed those trying to get into higher-demand IT specialties from glut IT specialties. Companies typically prefer younger visa workers to older citizen vying for glut transfers.

--
Table-ized A.I.

hum by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 07:11 · Score: 1

The truth is IT skills are less valued in the corporate world than in the non-corporate world(small businesses). Even someone working in Marketing department with not much skill but gets paid higher and respective more than any IT person. Does not matter if you work 12 - 16 hours a day you as an IT person are still seen as someone who does not contribute as much as the rest of the employees. It's especially relevant here in NYC they have something against IT workers.

In NYC, all it's boroughs, you were able to survive easily with $55k a year salary, but now, not so much since apartment rentals in all these boroughs have risen from $1200 to $2400 in the past 4 years. Even those crappy 1980's railroad room type apartments that i used to live in as a kid would cost $400 a month rent but now it's $2200 in areas like Wyckoff(crime ridden area in the 80's and early 90's). Food going up, gas still expensive, you have state and local taxes, you are being ticketed left and right, etc...

The problem is not the 1 - 2% dollar(monthly, and no it has not lost 95% of value) inflation, it's idiots on wall street, banking industry, real eastate assholes, increasing product prices based on speculation and home increases based on the popularity of it's location bullshit. I't just feels like this country is in a deflation phase while there is no shortage of the dollar, it's just weird.

Re:hum by King_TJ · 2014-10-20 13:31 · Score: 2

I haven't ever lived or worked in NYC, but I'm not that surprised by what you're saying.
NYC is ground zero for brokers and bankers .... people who believe they essentially rule the world because they control the flow of the money. One of my best friends did I.T. for a large firm that supplies those Wall Street traders with some of their computer software tools. You'd think if they respected any I.T. folks, it would be guys like him. (Heck, his own DAD was a stock broker, so he had some experience in their world.) But no.... they treated him like dirt.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Rob+Riggs · 2014-10-20 07:11 · Score: 1

When someone says "Megacorp", they typically mean this. There are a few companies on that list that will pay that (GS, INTC, JPM, MSFT), depending on where you work. But the majority will not.

--
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause

incomperehensible by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 07:35 · Score: 1

Honestly, I was surprised at two things when I went from the public sector to the "private" sector. One, the pay is quite a bit higher. Two, the skill level is, if you can believe it, much lower. I can almost understand going with H1Bs. If your "developers" are going to dither over retarded camel-casing rules while churning out code full of SQL injection, unchecked exceptions, and VBisms by the truckload, why not buy the cheaper brand of turds? And organizations that retarded quite frankly deserve the misery inflicted by Dynamics and SAP consultants.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Iconoclysm · 2014-10-20 08:10 · Score: 1

It's not poverty level but $100k will leave you with very little in Washington, DC...you probably couldn't even buy a first sports car and the high cost of living means being out of work for even a few weeks could pull you under and force you out of the area.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Rigel47 · 2014-10-20 08:15 · Score: 1

That's a bad metric.. $20k of that would immediately get eaten by health insurance and other things companies usually provide.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by lamer01 · 2014-10-20 08:19 · Score: 1

HAHAHAHAHA, you are so sheltered....$100K barely gets you by if you wife, 2 kids, a mortgage, insane property taxes, insane state income tax, insane heating expenses. Try living in the NYC tri-state area with $100 and a family. You must be joking.

Re:Voter Recruitment Commissioned by NPR by Anonymous Coward · 2014-10-20 08:46 · Score: 1

Wish I had mod points. This is very true. In Silicon Valley there's a pretty strong streak of GOP-ism among the Chinese community, but I can't think of another nonwhite group that has really significant GOP representation. And if the GOP would jettison both the racism and the anti-science crowds, they'd have a shot with these folks. Unfortunately, they're doubling down on both - 'thug' has become the new dog-whistle term for 'scary brown person', and they're still arguing against natural selection and other evidence-based systems of knowledge, and while that's making them rock-solid among middlebrow- and lower-class older white people, it's alienating the younger demographic across the spectrum.

IT != Software Development by tjlee · 2014-10-20 08:50 · Score: 1

I've worked in many companies where IT is separate from R&D. The distinction is that IT is mainly about corporate computer infrastructure (how information technology is applied to support a business) and R&D is about contributing to the business' bottom-line. In cases where the company is a technology/software company, IT and R&D are most certainly separate departments. IT is usually considered a liability on the balance sheets whereas the latter is considered a profit center. Sure, some IT professionals dabble in writing software, but it's quite different from a company whose business is technology/software. I wonder whether the underlying data in the charts can be stratified further to reflect such a distinction. I would suspect that IT (liability side) salaries are on the lower end of the scale with some overlap in the middle, depending upon what kind of business it supports. Businesses in software/technology are more likely to pay a premium, thus filling out the higher end of the scale.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 08:56 · Score: 1

So why doesn't your wife have a job? I didn't say $100k as a household income for four was a lot, I said for one person's salary it was a lot.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by theendlessnow · 2014-10-20 09:28 · Score: 1

True $140K is not poverty... it's slap dab in the middle of the average middle class for households according to President Obama. And this is slashdot, so you can't argue with that since it has to be true.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by AuMatar · 2014-10-20 10:25 · Score: 1

First off, glassdoor isn't a representative set. Secondly, it counts salary only, not bonuses and equity that can be half of your take home. Third, it does averaging but doesn't drop out old days points- days points from 09 are horribly outdated, but included in their averages. Glassdoor is good for reviews, but it's salary numbers are junk.

--
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?

Re:Voter Recruitment Commissioned by NPR by Baldrson · 2014-10-20 10:39 · Score: 1

High income college educated whites vote Republican.

73% of Asian Americans voted for Obama in the last election.

If NPR can put even more college educated white techies out of work by importing even more Asian techies, they'll get more of existing whites voting Democrat and more immigrants who are known to vote Democrat even at high income levels.

--
Seastead this.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by cryptizard · 2014-10-20 11:51 · Score: 1

Nobody said anything about a family on a single income. I was talking about one person's income. It's still not poverty, but yes, as a household income that is not very extravagant. .

Where would you like the jobs? by LessThanObvious · 2014-10-20 13:18 · Score: 1

Silicon Valley and surrounding areas are too expensive as are New York and Boston and parts of Seattle metro.

Where would you [Slashdot readers] want to live if they pumped more tech jobs into the area? Is decentralizing the only way to get tech jobs in areas that don't have a crazy cost of living?

Re:How many really make $140k ? by ILongForDarkness · 2014-10-20 13:55 · Score: 1

You have to compare cost of living at the location of work. Sure you can commute but if part of getting that 140k is a 1.5hr commute each way then it really is more like 90k with overtime pay. So if I'm working downtown Manhattan and an 3 bedroom apartment goes for $4000 a month that is $48000 a year. Same thing in the middle of no where is maybe $12000 a year that is a $36000 after tax salary difference you need. Then comes food prices (usually higher) etc. There are exceptions but generally IT provides a nice comfortable lifestyle: you probably can have a corvette if you really want it but you'll have to sacrifice somewhere else, dido the extra nice house/appartment/alimony payments. We aren't rich because we can't have all 4 at the same time without worrying about it but we can get a comfortable mix of what we want and generally doing have to worry about how we are going to pay for that new gadget or night out at the pub.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by mattack2 · 2014-10-20 14:01 · Score: 1

Quality of life tends to be higher?

Wait, those other places have *weather* and I can't wear shorts all year round.. That's supposed to be higher?

Re:How many really make $140k ? by ILongForDarkness · 2014-10-20 14:09 · Score: 1

I had the same experience in Canada. Lived in Vancouver was making 10% more but renting a 10x10 bedroom in a shared house was about $100 less than I'm paying for my mortgage in a suburb of Toronto. West coast living is just crazy expensive. The lady I was living with was sharing a mattress on the floor of the basement with her 10 year old son. Probably not legal and how much longer could she do that before it would get really creepy for the both of them? I asked her why she didn't move out east were she'd make a decent living: "oh but the weather is so nice". It is like you are on vacation and you live like it (ie spend every dime you have and are constantly checking to see if you still have any money left before buying that coffee). At the time ~5 years back a one bedroom condo was going for over $1M. Even at 100k a year you'll have a hard time living like a toy factory worker in Ontario.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Slashdot+Parent · 2014-10-20 15:04 · Score: 1

I don't care where you live, $100k is enough money that you don't have to worry about your day to day life.

I agree if you're not married with kids, but if you are, then $100k could be a little tight in a few areas of the country (it'd be fine in most of the country, though).

To work through an example in a high-ish cost of living area, let's say you live in a $650k house, have one $35k car per adult, and a few kids. Figure a $3k/mo mortgage, $1000/mo car payment+insurance+maintenance x 2, $2500/yr for a dog, $400/mo utilities, $500 groceries (several mouths to feed), $1000/mo for kids' activities. Say you get to keep $70k of your salary after taxes, and you're already in the hole $10k per year.

But yeah, if you're just trying to support 1 person, then $100k/yr is plenty.

--
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock

Re:How many really make $140k ? by cryptizard · 2014-10-21 00:39 · Score: 1

That's so entitled it is ridiculous. Oh no, I can't live in a $650k house, I am so poor. You realize that a $100k household salary puts you in the top 20% of households in the US, ignoring any money your spouse might make. What are the other 80% of people doing to live? Yeah, yeah, some places are more expensive than others. But your Starbucks barista in your super-expensive city still lives somewhere. Your barber lives somewhere. And they have kids too.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Slashdot+Parent · 2014-10-21 01:02 · Score: 2

That's so entitled it is ridiculous.

I had a feeling that you might say something like this, but realize that you are directly contradicting yourself.

You first said:

I don't care where you live, $100k is enough money that you don't have to worry about your day to day life.

I'm sorry. You can't just say, "If you make 100k then you can live anywhere in the US and not have to worry about money," but when someone points out that there are certain places where 100k doesn't put you on Easy Street, you can't then scold, "Oh, don't need to live somewhere where 650k buys you a modest rowhouse, then."

No shit I don't need to live somewhere that expensive. That wasn't the point. The point is that 100k isn't enough for certain places. That's all I'm saying. That you're wrong that 100k is enough for every square inch of the country. It's not. It's enough for 95+% of the country, but not absolutely everywhere.

--
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock

Re:How many really make $140k ? by HeckRuler · 2014-10-21 02:02 · Score: 1

I simply have a certain living standard that I would like to uphold

And with your education, experience, and contribution to society, would you say you're entitled to that certain living standard?

Realize that you can take your statement, and substitute $10,000 or $1,000,000 and it can still hold true. It's more of a reflection of your own tastes than Silicon Valley.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by Rob+Riggs · 2014-10-21 02:16 · Score: 1

Any big tech area where you can wear shorts year round is a hell hole.

--
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause

Dreams for sale by bitterblackale · 2014-10-21 04:33 · Score: 1

"I wanna be the CEO of some company that sells stuff I know nothing about," said no kid ever. If you work in IT, chances are you're just money-making livestock for some CEO who couldn't do your job is the fate of the world depended on it. This is an upside-down economy, and I wonder how long it can possibly last.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by ArhcAngel · 2014-10-21 07:46 · Score: 1

The average home price in LA is over $500K. In San Francisco it is over $650K. In NY the median home price is over $350K. A nicer home in a better neighborhood in Houston is less than $300K. You can take your pathetic condescending attitude and shove it up your ass.

--
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K

Re: How many really make $140k ? by mattack2 · 2014-10-21 11:04 · Score: 1

Since you feel that way, great, stay away..

many lawyers make under 100k by bouldin · 2014-10-21 15:02 · Score: 1

I looked into a law degree a couple years back. You either get a Big Law job (starting at 125-135, with raises depending on what business you bring in, with many lawyers getting very infrequent raises), or you work for yourself (average was in the mid-70s).

A lot of things about the graph are misleading. There are *plenty* of people with law degrees who either cant find work as an attorney, scrape by in bottom-feeder roles (real estate and probate law), or work contract-to-contract.

Also, 103-200 is a huge range.

Re:How many really make $140k ? by Slashdot+Parent · 2014-10-21 15:49 · Score: 1

What the heck are you feeding your dog? Or are the annual dog license and vet visit insanely high where you are? And what are two kids doing that costs $6000/kid/year?

I'll say to you the same thing that I said to the other commenter: the basic premise is that if I make 100k/yr, I shouldn't have to compromise. It shouldn't matter what I feed my dog, and it shouldn't matter what activities my kids do. I shouldn't have to think about money, in the eyes of cryptizard, but clearly, if I made 100k and lived where I live, I would have to think about money. Maybe I wouldn't have a dog. Maybe my kids wouldn't do three activities, each. Maybe we'd economize somewhere else. But none of this matters.

To answer your question, my dog is old, and she has some health problems. She eats probably $20 worth of food per month and another $40 or so in medicines. Her annual vet exam is like $700 now, and when we leave town, we board her. And she's had some big vet bills in her lifetime, which I averaged out and included in my annual figure. It adds up. Dogs aren't cheap unless you put them down if they get a big health problem.

For activities, they each do a sport, an instrument, and a foreign language class. Nothing extravagant, but again, it adds up. Stuff is expensive.

And I'm not complaining. But... well... I also make more than $100k/yr, so I don't have to worry so much about money. But I'm just sayin', if you "only" make 100k/yr, and you live in one of the few really high-cost areas in the country, you're not going to be able to live worry-free, financially. You're going to have to make some compromises.

--
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock

Re:How many really make $140k ? by HeckRuler · 2014-10-22 03:30 · Score: 1

Holy shit, you're saying the AVERAGE home price is high in LA? Where hollywood actors live? And then you compare that to the median NY price? And then take a specific (yet generalized) example in Houston?

And somehow these values lend weight to the argument that a $100K is considered poverty level. Jesus christ dude, I don't think anyone is saying that there is variance in housing prices. It's the straw-man attitude to those prices and expected income that is making you look like a douche.

But seriously, if you're going to compare areas, at least use a consistent metric.

Re: How many really make $140k ? by AuMatar · 2014-10-26 14:09 · Score: 1

No, it doesn't. Math just doesn't work out. I don't even know startups out here that offer that little.

--
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?

Slashdot Mirror

Developers, IT Still Racking Up (Mostly) High Salaries

134 of 198 comments (clear)