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Manga Images Depicting Children Lead to Conviction in UK
An anonymous reader writes with this news from the UK, as reported by Ars Technica: A 39-year-old UK man has been convicted of possessing illegal cartoon drawings of young girls exposing themselves in school uniforms and engaging in sex acts. The case is believed to be the UK's first prosecution of illegal manga and anime images. Local media said that Robul Hoque was sentenced last week to nine months' imprisonment, though the sentence is suspended so long as the defendant does not break the law again. Police seized Hoque's computer in 2012 and said they found nearly 400 such images on it, none of which depicted real people but were illegal nonetheless because of their similarity to child pornography. Hoque was initially charged with 20 counts of illegal possession but eventually pled guilty to just 10 counts.
Now maybe we can finally move on to locking up those with pictures of people illegally downloading music or drawings of addicts using heroin.
Similarity to child pornography? Is there really someone so stupid that they cannot tell the difference between a cartoon drawing and a real child?
This is when people just go too far.. It's a f-ing drawing, it's not real..
This just tells me the people who made these laws are really in need of some psychotherapie if they think these drawings should be forbidden.. What's next, put people in jail just for what they are thinking?
thought crime
The laws against child pornography should be aimed at protecting children from exploitation, not in making morality statements. Cartoon drawings of children engaging in sex acts certainly indicate people with pretty sick imaginations, but no children are hurt in their creation or consumption. I have seen worse on walls in public washrooms.
Yeah, this is stupid. You can't sentence people for drawing and using a paper and pen, whatever the content of their drawing, or fapping it out to imaginary drawings that have no relation to any real person.
1984 would like to have a word with the UK. But then again, UK sentences people over tweets and facebook posts, so it doesn't surprise me.
Censoring art, whether you agree with the content or not, is a slippery slope towards thought policing, which is bad any way you look at it.
This also connects to the "violence in video games leads to real life violence" thing. So long as they don't stalk and harm real children (and some aren't even interested in real children but in drawings [you can't explain fetishes, fetishes just are],
they can fap to whatever drawings on paper they want and create whatever drawings they want.
Should Australia also ban many Renaissance statues and artworks, and those of ages before it, because they feature females with small breasts? ["Obscene media/art" portraying small breasts being disallowed or something in Australian law, some Ausia elaborate for me please].
So somebody who has never done anything wrong writes an offensive cartoon. How is this different than a cartoon depicting a murder, also offensive? In fact, what about all those Hollywood movies depicting murder? Should the writers of those movies go to jail as well?
We could also ban political contributions because that's like bribery.
In all seriousness I do remember an argument against this type of crap in congress that basically said this was a regulation of taste, and if you ban things that are similar to child pornography couldn't you also ban images of women with small breasts because they evoke thoughts of children? (paraphrase)
"There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
Let's do a thought experiment. Start with a blank piece of paper and some colored pencils. A person begins drawing a picture. The page begins as a completely meaningless object, and as marks are made on the page, it gains meaning gradually. A line on paper is not illegal, or at least it shouldn't be by any moral or ethical standard. Two lines, three lines, and so on. Each are probably completely innocent individually. If these scribbles were forming letters and words, they would be clearly protected expression, until they formed some kind of credible threat. At least, that's how I understand it.
But this isn't a written message, just a picture. A head takes shape. Eyes, nose, mouth, and hair. The subject starts to emerge. Still this is a legal drawing by any measure. Eventually enough marks are made on the page that the subject has context. Clothes, background... and actions. At some point the scene depicted by this collection of lines and smudges becomes forbidden. What was an figment of someone's imagination is now a very real crime.
How does that happen, and when? Who specifically does this law protect? Is the person who drew it a criminal, or is it only a crime when someone buys it? Is every viewer of the picture a criminal or just the ones who enjoy it? How do you tell which is which? What about the imagination that spawned the picture? Would the artist have been a criminal if they hadn't put their mental image to paper? I find these questions very difficult to answer in a way that makes sense for a society. Every seemingly obvious answer can lead to some very harmful laws.
But the main motivation is one of greater public good. A scribble that harms nobody is made illegal because by locking up the people who like the scribbles, they cannot remain free to eventually harm real people in the same way. It's a noble cause and perhaps an effective law (I have not seen proof one way or the other). However it is also disturbingly close to pre-crime. I'm not entirely comfortable with that.
"Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
While we're in the UK...
Percy: You know, they do say that the Infanta's eyes are more beautiful than the famous Stone of Galveston. ... What? ... from Galveston.
Edmund: Mm!
Percy: The famous Stone of Galveston, My Lord.
Edmund: And what's that, exactly?
Percy: Well, it's a famous blue stone, and it comes
Edmund: I see. And what about it?
Percy: Well, My Lord, the Infanta's eyes are bluer than it, for a start.
Edmund: I see. And have you ever seen this stone?
Percy: (nods) No, not as such, My Lord, but I know a couple of people who have, and they say it's very very blue indeed.
Edmund: And have these people seen the Infanta's eyes?
Percy: No, I shouldn't think so, My Lord.
Edmund: And neither have you, presumably.
Percy: No, My Lord.
Edmund: So, what you're telling me, Percy, is that something you have never seen is slightly less blue than something else you have never seen.
Percy: Yes, My Lord.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I have to wonder how the judge draws the line between something like this conviction and, say, the Simpsons Movie, where Bart is rocking some full frontal on the big screen.
There's a difference, for sure -- one is funny and clearly a cartoon, whereas one sounds like it's purposefully sexualizing children. So the conviction could be grounded in intent. But it's a hell of a slippery slope.
--------------------- -me, Crusher of those who are Foolish (don't be foolish)
That is not how the real world works. Here, there is the law of unintended consequences.
Sometimes the law results in good things - for example, the existence of internet porn has pretty much ended bestiality. Before the internet, farms had an estimated fifty percent bestiality rate. Around 8 % and 3% for the general population. After the internet, all of those numbers dropped like a stone. Why? Because a pretty picture of a girl is more satisfying than bestiality.
Why do I bring this up? Because outlawing behavior doesn't stop it. Some people are and and will be attracted to kids. You can't turn off sexuality (ask any gay man or lesbian woman from an anti-gay tradition). Better that they read manga than buy actual child pornography.
Just as we use a lesser opiate (methadone) to treat addicts, we should use Manga to treat others.
Manga looks to me like a great way to:
1) wean them off child pornography
2) protect real children from being hurt by the industry
3) slowly shift their sexuality from kids to something more acceptable.
This should be required treatment for people interested in children, rather than outlawed.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
No. In the U.S. cartoon images ARE protected by the First Amendment. This was decided by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2002. (Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, 535 U.S. 234 (2002)). Sometimes our Supreme court DOES get it right!
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
Commission a drawing of the man in question serving time.
"The case is believed to be the UK's first prosecution of illegal manga and anime images."
Except for the other cases involving the exact same thing and England that were also on Slashdot years ago. Seriously, England got famous for being the first country to crack down on it and 4chan and deviantart and other famous communities got pissed.
So the only men allowed in Australian porn are now fat men with big manboobs?
This is the same country that inspired 1984 and V For Vendetta, so it seems there's a long running propensity for criminal overreach.
Today's also the day that the guys responsible for prosecuting child pornography offenders stated that they lack the resources and would only prosecute the highest priority cases - leaving around 50,000 alleged offenders uncharged.
So that's up to 50,000 people that allegedly have images of actual child sex that wont be charged, and one person with cartoons that's been found guilty.
Fucked up situation indeed. Interesting that it's his second conviction for breaching child pornography laws without ever being found in possession of child pornography. And people wonder why I refuse to browse porn sites these days..
You joke but it creates a legal nightmare. What is "illegal" imagery and what is not? Whether the judge finds them "repulsive" or not? How do you determine the age of a drawn character? How realistic does it have to be? (ie: do stick figures count?) Is a sexual act/"nudity" required or is suggestive imagery enough?
By the ambiguity of the law/ruling something as simple as Sailor Moon could be illegal.
Just make sure the first picture you draw of your underage-looking manga pornstar shows her holding up her vehicle operator's license (or other gov't approved photo ID). Also, make sure to draw the ID so it indicates that she's legal.
do not read this line twice.
Like I said yesterday:
I've said it many times before, and will say it again. The UK is not what it used to be. It used to be the bastion of European freedom, the saviors against Hitler.
At this time, they're exactly the opposite. They're on the front-lines of oppression, limiting freedom of speech and monitoring online and offline behavior all in the name of "save the children".
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Someone who does not having a fictional outlet. Let them jerk off to cartoons and leave the real kids alone. Dumb fuck.
If no child is being harmed in the process of making such a drawing then it should be ignored. Sure, it's sick drawing them but the CP laws were created to protect children which are "starred" therein, not to protect some moral values. If the drawing is hyper-realistic than IMO the drawer should be investigated whether he or she had children "models" involved to create such a drawing.
- Creating CP should be illegal, buying CP — too. On this we may all agree.
- Downloading and keeping CP is at the very worst like not reporting a crime to the police. The question arises what to do with the possession of all the beheading videos then.
- Mangas, drawings and 3D renders should not be legally prosecuted.
I don't know of any science about the effects of CP-like imagery. I do recall reading however that the rapes go down if availability of porn increases. Which may be the case with pedos as well. Keep in mind though that the majority of abuses are done by the people living in the same household as the victim, not random strangers who saw some imagery on the internet. And that problem cannot be solved by making arbitrary things on the web illegal.
When I was living in Japan, a friend asked me to send him a copy of Inu Yasha volume 1 so he could give it to his daughter. She wanted to use it to help study the Japanese language. It was her favorite anime and she wanted to read the manga. I was about to send it to him and noticed that there is a scene with Kagome (the heroine) bathing naked. She's meant to be 14. Not wanting to get my friend involved in importing child porn, I ended up not sending it. It is a shame that a 14 year old girl can't read her favorite manga because there is a picture of a naked 14 year old girl in it. Laws are laws, though...
broke the law plain and simple
Appeal to law. Law != morality, so this is irrelevant. If your point wasn't to equate legality with morality, then your point was worthless, as everyone here already knows about this crappy law, so you don't need to tell them that the law was broken or that they can campaign for it to be changed.
Would you want someone doing this with your kids?
Appeal to emotion. Even if I wouldn't, that is no excuse for infringing upon a fundamental right like freedom of speech.
You're an authoritarian to the core.
Some of whom have been later convicted of sexual assault against the children they painted.
Some humans are murderers, therefore all humans are murderers. Nice hasty generalization, there.
Furthermore, freedom of speech > safety. Take your "Think of the children!" garbage elsewhere. Dailymail, perhaps?
There is a big problem with the number of paedos in this country, already the police admit there are just too many too arrest.
Fearmongering nonsense. For one thing, a pedophile is simply someone with a sexual attraction to prepubescent children; an individual pedophile isn't necessarily a child molester, and vice versa. You are using incorrect terminology.
Second of all, society is safer than ever before; you need only look at crime statistics. If you're scared of child molesters, then you should never get into a car again, as it's far more likely you'll die in a car accident.
I fond it odd that anyone is defending this on the grounds of free speech......
Why is it odd to defend free speech on the grounds of free speech? What's odd is people who want government thugs to have the ability to subjectively determine that certain content is unacceptable for subjective reasons and then have it banned. That should be frightening to anyone who cares about freedom.
Community can set standards
Sounds like tyranny of the majority to me. A good thing if you don't like individual liberties, but a bad thing otherwise.
But. The guy is weird even for a brit and if he is monitored until the end of his time, all the better.
Why is punishing someone who merely looked at images forever considered a good thing?
Is it just me, or does anyone else here think that the UK is seriously confusing the issue on why child porn is bad, and subtituting resolution for the victims of crime, with good ol' fashion morality, which is on the edge of a very slippery slope. Child porn is illegal to protect children from being exploited. Cartoon characters are not real people, and have no rights as such, and I'd really hate to live in a world where even the law cannot tell the distinction.
This is a slippery slope, because cartoon characters have no actual birthdays, so they have no actual age, and there is no distinction between an "18 year old toon", and a "13 year old one", or with any variant of non-human, or un-realities that cartoons depict, there is really no standards, and this can be construed to arrest anyone for any cartoon depiction of sex.
Lets call this what it is, a moral outrage, and not a real protection of anyone, child or otherwise. Someone went to jail for someone elses morality. This opens up the door for more morality based arrests.
Non-sexualized nudity with genitals not emphasized or even visible does not exactly qualify as porn. For instance, a painting of a mother bathing a small child is not kiddie porn.
I can't find the link - my Google-fu is apparently weak - but a couple of years ago a truck driver was arrested crossing from Canada into the US. Reason for the arrest: he had printed stories - fiction, not pics - describing sexual encounters with children. He was arrested for possessing child porn. I don't know what happened afterwards, and finding this online seems to be difficult, given the search terms needed...
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
Ephobephilia, exclusive or not , is ridicilously common (10 to 20% prevalence depending on the study). Pedophilia IIRC barely scratch the 0.2 to 0.5%. What is the difference ? Secondary sexual characteristic. See in some country people have been flagging teh attraction to underage male & female NO MATTER THE AGE as pedophilia. But the reality is that pedophilia has a clear definition is the attraction to a child which does not display secondary sexual characteristic. Ephebophiliac on the other hand are attracted to young postpubescent teennager which display such sexual characteristic (for example young 14 year old female girl with breast) but are not at all itnerrested into prepubere children , like a 5 year old.
The problem is that in some country like the USA people are mistaking one for the other. They accuse often ephebophiliac as being pedophiliac. They are not the same category, they ephebophiliac,e xclusive or not, are not even recognized as a pathology, only true pedophiliac are.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
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