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Interviews: Ask Adora Svitak About Education and Women In STEM and Politics
samzenpus writes Adora Svitak is a child prodigy, author and activist. She taught her first class on writing at a local elementary school when she was 7, the same year her book, Flying Fingers was published. In 2010, Adora spoke at a TED Conference. Her speech, "What Adults Can Learn from Kids", has been viewed over 3.7 million times and has been translated into over 40 different languages. She is an advocate for literacy, youth empowerment, and for the inclusion of more women and girls in STEM and politics. 17 this year, she served as a Youth Advisor to the USA Science and Engineering Festival in Washington, DC. and is a freshman at UC Berkeley. Adora has agreed to take some time from her books and answer any questions you may have. As usual, ask as many as you'd like, but please, one per post.
I know! I know! Ask her about her implication on the future best seller "Barbie: I, against all odds, can be a computer engineer for Amazon in Seattle"!
In your talk you said that kids deserve high expectations.
What help do you have to reach your high expectations? What should kids do who don't have the same help?
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
To what extent do you believe child prodigies are merely products of their environment?
[sarcasm] Great, so basically you're saying no women allowed, right? [/sarcasm]
Do you believe in microaggressions? Why or why not? Is a belief in microaggressions helpful or harmful? To whom is it helpful? Who should worry about microaggressions? Who shouldn't? How can someone be certain they are innocent of committing microaggressions? If someone is accused of something like committing microaggressions, are there two sides that must be considered, or only one?
STEM is such a big area. Where are the jobs???
Daughter just complete BS in Math in 3yrs and cannot find a job. Now, is user support line on how to fill out a health insurance website at $10/hr.
So what good is STEM student degree by a female, if their is nothing waiting at the other end??????
Dear Adora Svitak,
At 17 years of age, you do not have enough life experience to say anything of real importance about anything involving the greater issues facing society. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are or think you are. It doesn't matter how much of a rep has been manufactured for you by spinmeisters. You are simply too young to have any real perspective or ability to identify the machinations of those around you.
One of the most dangerous things in the world is for someone to believe their own hype. Don't make that mistake.
Incidentally, What Adults Can Learn From Kids ~ {null}, which is why society would function much more smoothly if the voting age were raised back to 25.
When are you girls going to get off your knees and fight back? You're as masochistic as the average voter. You're being abused because you let them abuse you. Stop it! Just stop it!!
what does some random 17 year old with rich helicopter parents have to tell us?
seriously...
all these "child prodigy" stories are bullshit and nothing more than advertisements for the parents
Thank you Dave Raggett
Hi,
I'm the "typical" white male in CS gradschool. My subjective view is that CS has one of the lowest number of women compared to other STEM disciplines. I'd estimate that typically there are about 5% tops in classes or at conferences. For various reasons I think that this situation is a shame for the community and society as a whole. What do you think can be done to improve this?
Thanks!
He has a point. Every story about women in STEM is plagued with posts trying to disrupt any effort to improve things. Typical arguments include:
- There is no problem
- Girls just don't like computers
- There is nothing we can do, women can already apply/read job web sites
- It's too late to do anything
- It's sexist because it discriminates against men
- It's a feminazi conspiracy to cut off my balls
The list goes on... All designed to make sure we don't gain any traction on this issue. The simple fact is that numbers of women in IT have been declining since the 90s, so clearly something has gone wrong. Fortunately there are easy ways to fix it, and they don't discriminate against men at all.
I used to think it was just ignorance, but now I'm starting to realize it's actually a campaign my misogynists to try and keep women out of IT for some reason. That's the only explanation for why so many people either say or vote up posts like that.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Hi Adora! Looking through any debate on gender issues is somewhat demoralizing, as there seems to be little focus on resolving the underlying issues. What do you think could be done to help people cooperate rather than yelling at each other?
I used to think it was just ignorance, but now I'm starting to realize it's actually a campaign my misogynists to try and keep women out of IT for some reason. That's the only explanation for why so many people either say or vote up posts like that.
I think it's neither. A lot of men simply don't care at all about how many women are in IT and react to the feeling that they are made responsible for it, while the vast majority are simple low level guys who have little impact on who gets hired and even less on who gets promoted.
What I don't get is why is it important? Even the immense majority of men were feminists, corporate managers would still be the only ones with the power to change the distribution. And whoever thinks corporate managers take their decisions based on what their employees think is naive or ignorant.
I'm not so sure I'd call it a campaign.
That implies ordered and rational thought, and some coherent strategy.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Do you support women in stem?
Do you support stem in women?
If it's good for the goose, is it good for the gander?
Copyright (c) 1990 - 2014 Dice. All rights reserved. Use of this comment is subject to certain Terms and Conditions.
After seeing my development job outsourced to India in the early 2000's during an IT slump, I have no compulsion to steer my daughter into STEM. I hope she finds a career that she grows into and does well, STEM or not.
STEM is in demand at this spot in history, but I've learned the hard way it's subject to fads, bubbles, age discrimination, H1B's, and outsourcing.
Please tell me, why push women into such risk?
I suspect it's lobbyists trying to get cheaper IT labor for their plutocrat bosses by flooding the market. Feel welcome to convince me otherwise.
Table-ized A.I.
...The simple fact is that numbers of women in IT have been declining since the 90s, so clearly something has gone wrong.
I do see your point, but to try and state that something has clearly "gone wrong" here is a bit difficult to swallow.
The entire IT industry has exploded in the last two decades. When looking at IT over the last 50 years, it has always been traditionally a male-dominated industry, much like many other industries that offer no obvious gender boundaries or blockades.
By comparison, we're not all up in arms when the demand for qualified nurses rises, and the statistics clearly show far more women are entering that field than men. Is there something "wrong" there too?
Shouldn't you be crying into your pillow and lamenting how having a tiny penis and a small brain has handicapped you and the world is against you?
Seriously, grow up and get a life.
Penis jokes, and then it has the temerity to tell someone to "grow up"... Further comment hardly seems sporting.
He has a point. Every story about women in STEM is plagued with posts trying to disrupt any effort to improve things. Typical arguments include:
...
- There is no problem
- Girls just don't like computers
Is it possible that either of these are true, even in a general sense? There are gender disparities in several fields. The median salary for nurses is $65,470, whereas the median salary for IT Technicians is $42,992, but you don't hear a whole bunch of FUD over the fact that 90% of nurses are females. And when it comes right down to it, nurses are far more valuable to society than IT techs. Meanwhile, oil rig workers, about 95% male, make on average $99,175. Why no big push for women in that field?
Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
How much credence to you give to the theory recently put forward in a recent NPR Planet Money piece, ascribing the absence of women specifically in the computing industry to 1980s media representation of geeks and computer worker lifestyles?
"When I was a teen, I thought I knew everything too".
ISBN Number" 0071111eleventy
It actually took me until fairly recently to be right about everything ;)
Do you think that they should have similar programs to get males into areas where they are typically underrepresented (nursing, etc.)?
- There is no problem
There is because women tell us they are interested in IT and STEM but get put off by certain behaviour or find systematic bias against them. Unless they are all liars I suppose.
- Girls just don't like computers
Why did there used to be more women in IT than there are now? The timescale (back to the 80s/90s) is too short to account for anything other than changes in society and in schools/jobs. Also, women tell us that they do find computers interesting.
So, I don't think there is any realistic argument that those two things are true. I'm not saying we will ever get to a 50/50 ratio, I honestly don't know and can accept that women may be less interested than men (statistically), but the fact that we can identify specific problems and know that in the past more women were in IT makes it hard to deny that there is a problem.
As for gender disparities in other fields, they are a problem too. Nursing is a good example, because there is a recognized lack of male nurses and a demand for them. Primary school teaching is another area where there is a severe shortage of males, and a concerted effort to correct the problem. Young children need male role models at school.
In other areas like oil rig workers, where there is apparently little to be gained by society from having more women there, the main issue is barriers to women who do want to enter the field. I have no idea if many women are interested in oil rig work... To be honest I'm not sure how many men are "interested" exactly, it seems more like an unpleasant job that you accept because of the money, but if a woman says she wants to be an oil rig worker and could become one on her own merits were it not for discriminatory hiring practices, lack of facilities for women on the rig, or the attitude of her co-workers then that would be a problem.
I'm hesitant to say it because I feel you are being genuine here, but your arguments are bordering on sophism. Do people really have such a superficial understanding of the issue that this kind of argument seems reasonable? Perhaps that's where we are at, and I'm not blaming you for it, but it's depressing that after all these years we can't even get to the basic definition of the problem without a lengthy explanation.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
So, what have you done to narrow the gender ratio in nursing? How about ballet? Primary education?
Yeah, that's what I thought.
I guess I misunderstood your post, or you misunderstood mine. I care about what she say because she is attacking manhood. Indirectly, she is attacking me, and forces me into the fight I would not have been drawn into normally. She is finding support, as her support grows, what I stand for is put more and more under attack. I just wanna be left alone, saving the damsel in distress in games, jacking on porn, and fucking around. Though, at some point, I have to stand my ground.
Oh, white knights and SJW's never fight for evil white heterosexual men, of course. That would be akin to supporting Hitler! How would their farts continue to smell so flowery fragrant if they were to dare demand equity in hiring in elementary education, or nursing, or the fashion industry?
I used to think it was just ignorance, but now I'm starting to realize it's actually a campaign my misogynists to try and keep women out of IT for some reason. That's the only explanation for why so many people either say or vote up posts like that.
Well, a favorite quote from most women is, "Oh, grow up." Women have made most jobs, well, jobs. Most guys in IT don't want to grow up and don't want to work at a job.
I believe that you are right in thinking that most people have a superficial understanding.
I don't care if I'm wrong. I only care about everyone obtaining something from the discussion.
The simple fact is that numbers of women in IT have been declining since the 90s, so clearly something has gone wrong.
There's the rub. You presume that a declining number of women in IT, even if true, is a "problem". Most people don't give a damn. They don't see it as a problem, merely a consequence of having the freedom to pursue whatever career floats one's boat. The quota mentality that you clearly possess is a consequence of the political dogma to which you subscribe without critical thought. Grow up. Freedom means people being able to make their own choices even if it leads to outcomes of which you don't approve.
>Why did there used to be more women in IT than there are now?
Because using a computer used to consist of sorting punch cards and entering tables of data into computers by hand.
When that was all automated all the computer girls were fired.
At 17 years of age, you do not have enough life experience to say anything of real importance about anything involving the greater issues facing society.
How perfectly appropriate that these choice lines should be posted by to Slashdot by an Anonymous Coward.
The timing couldn't be bettered as well.
We should certainly laud Mattel for deciding that 2014 is the year Barbie strikes out on her own as a career woman after 55 years and 150-plus jobs (including hating math and babysitting, with a welcome stint as a computer engineer in 2010).
But Entrepreneur Barbie reminds us that --- like every other ostensibly inspiring incarnation of the doll --- her main role is to look pretty and wear lots of pink.
In the end, both [Supermodel Barbie and Entrepreneur Barbie] are part of the same old problem. As 16-year-old feminist and former TED speaker Adora Svitak told Forbes' Denise Restauri this week:
''She encourages an unrealistic expectation of beauty grounded in narrow ideals --- whiteness, thinness, a lack of hair and an abundance of breast tissue --- instead of kindness, smarts, self-confidence, or athleticism.''
Mattel's Latest Affront To Little Girls: Entrepreneur Barbie [Feb 2014]
I have nothing against padded bras in general. But my immediate thought in the store was, Why the hell does a teenage girl need one?
The issue of the over-sexualizing of girls from an early age has come to the forefront with a recent news story about model Thylane Lena-Rose Blondeau posing suggestively for the cover of Vogue magazine. Over a series of photos, the ten-year-old is shown sprawled on leopard-print cushions, wearing a skimpy gold dress, stiletto heels, and posing heavily made-up, with rouge and lipstick. She's ten years old, yet she looks scarily adult in the photos.
By creating so many illusory images of physical perfection, whether on store aisles or storefront ads, magazine covers or TV shows, we speak more to the profit margins of companies than the self-esteem of today's girls. The unsaid message of that endless rack of juniors' pushup bras? No matter what size you are, it still isn't good enough.
Would You Buy This for Your Daughter? [Aug 2011]
As for gender disparities in other fields, they are a problem too. Nursing is a good example, because there is a recognized lack of male nurses and a demand for them.
There's a demand for male nurses?
And I'm assuming the reason for this "demand" is the same reason we're desperately searching for in IT, right?
There's not a single reason a male cannot or would not otherwise qualify to be a nurse, much in the same way a female cannot or would not otherwise qualify for a position in STEM.
And yet only ONE of those industries is up in arms about the gender imbalance, even when there's a clear demand in both?
Odd that no one seems to find this rather strange, or at least inconsistent.
1. Were you aware that the Barbie line includes dolls of different skin colors? How would you plausibly represent the diversity of skin color in a single example?
2. Where would you add hair to a Barbie doll?
3. How would you project kindness, smarts, and self-confidence from a doll?
4. You believe that Barbie has too much "breast tissue". Does this indicate you have a bias against women with large breasts?
5. You believe that Barbie is too thin. Do you believe this contradicts your assertion that Barbie project athleticism, which usually precludes obesity?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
How do you feel about contradictory laws that, while they customarily allow suffrage and personal accountability at the age of 18, restrict the consumption of alcohol or possession of firearms or other items considered "dangerous" to those age 21 or older? What about the contradiction of prosecuting those under 18 "as adults"? Do you feel that the increasing US state regulations placed on child labor, which greatly restrict or totally exclude teenagers from the workplace, are denying young people valuable life experience?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Why did there used to be more women in IT than there are now? The timescale (back to the 80s/90s) is too short to account for anything other than changes in society and in schools/jobs.
The argument that I hear for this is that "computer operators" in the 60s-80s were essentially secretaries transcribing paper information into a computer, and this form of IT became obsolete when someone realized that even the UPS guy can do data entry.
Yes clearly the logical conclusion is a massive global conspiracy and it's not simply that the rest of the world is increasingly fed up with idiots obsessed with trivial bullshit (in the words of Aayan Hirsi Ali). Clearly the problem isn't that IT and similar fields are textbook examples of exactly the kind of extreme hours and lack of work/life balance that women are empirically proven to be repelled by time and time again. Clearly it's got nothing to do with the ever more extreme fearmongering and disempowering rhetoric that's created an orwellian culture of fear. Clearly we shouldn't listen to women actually in the field who have repeatedly called bullshit on people like you.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
Women also tell us that people like you are con artists using fear to control women and inflammatory rhetoric to create a moral panic. Why should we listen to you and not them?
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
'pussy-whipped' implies he actually got some pussy.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There are gender disparities in several fields. The median salary for nurses is $65,470, whereas the median salary for IT Technicians is $42,992, but you don't hear a whole bunch of FUD over the fact that 90% of nurses are females. And when it comes right down to it, nurses are far more valuable to society than IT techs.
The male nurse point is a bad example because people do care about that.
There have been a lot of talk and even initiatives to improve the number of women in the STEM field. While I myself participated in assessments for young women to encourage them to choose STEM topics, I am less and less convinced that these initiatives are working. The main problem is that we do not really know why women choose other topics. True they have been asked what they want and why they have chosen this instead of STEM. However, this does not give us the root cause which pushed them in that particular direction.
The lack of female "nerds" cannot be the root cause, as they tend to study pharmacy or accounting. Therefore, it must be something else and we should start resarching to uncover the truth. However, I doubt that this will ever been done, because getting to the bottom of things is much more pain then fooling around and starting ineffective programs.
He has a point.
So, wait... you're going to get your troll in before the other trolls arrive? Yeah, that makes sense...
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Why did there used to be more women in IT than there are now?
You repeatedly answer that statement with "It must be due to misogyny/sexism!". What makes you so sure that that's the answer? That's a leap of faith usually made by creationists when making their god-of-the-gaps argument. Just because no one yet knows the reason does not mean that your proposed reason is correct. Did you even look for any study that might disprove the "regression to the mean" answer for this statement you keep throwing out? Yeah, I didn't think so.
Seriously, arguing this is like arguing with a creationist: you assume that your answer is correct, because, well, you just feel it! Anyone who asks for actual, well, evidence that your answer is correct get's called names. Well Done!
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Slashdot, will you please end the fucking obsession with feminist gripes.
Not yet. Slashdot thrives on controversial stories, pitting ideologies against science and reason. Remember when they used to post Florian Muellers every article on Sco? Or when they used to post creationist stories? Or that brief period when we had at least one LGBT discrimination story a week? Bitcoin, even?
Slashdot fully understands that creationist/feminist ideologies are subject to a wide range of debunking methods. So /. wins when they post the stories so that the majority will debunk the very obvious lack of logic while the minority get to revel in being righteous against the haters.
It's actually a win-win-win situation. Slashdot gets eyeballs, the ideological minority gets to feel that their axe is finely ground and the rest get to point out logical fallacies by the ton (thus getting to feel superior to that religious minority). A winning formula.
Perhaps a betting pool on what logic-less ideology gets bumped into the headlines next year this time? My vote goes towards the coming recession :-)
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
Very little. However nursing and primary education are largely viewed less prestigious areas within fields where the more prestigious subsets are male dominated to some degree. It's misogyny that made those "women's work" (it was the drudge work that the men trusted women not to fuck up). And a man who wants to do them is assumed to be inferior (too lazy/dumb to be a real doctor, or a pedifile respectively)
Ballet, is a a bit different as it's arguably prestigious at some levels, but again due to misogyny, it's only prestigious for women, and "real men" are expected to look on it with contempt because of it's association with femininity. Basicly it's the "male cheerleader" stereotype for adults. So again they enemy here is the assumption that feminine things are "beneath" men.
That particular logical fallacy is "Argument from Age".
The merit of her arguments is independent of her age, and she should neither be ignored not afforded extra consideration based on how old she is.
Yes, it's not like there's a 30-year-old organization dedicated to things like:
What's funny is, you're so myopic you don't realize that advocating for more diversity in these fields is so NON-controversial that people don't remark on it. Huge amounts of money and time are being poured into getting more men interested in nursing, yet whenever anybody suggests that a male-dominated field should intentionally try to be more diverse, there's this ridiculous shitstorm on "news for nerd" sites like this.
Oh, and here's the kicker:
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics...
Show me a study that supports the assertion that women in IT make more money than their male counterparts, I dare you.
He has a point. Every story about women in STEM is plagued with posts trying to disrupt any effort to improve things.
You're bitching on slashdot. Even if this place could muster up an idea that actually addresses the problem and has a hope of actually solving it, you're still bitching on slashdot.
All you did was prove his point. A 30-year organization supporting male nursing and they still have not affected change. Maybe that means more about human behavior and less about a gender equality. MAYBE it is true, less women are interested in computers than males. This may be something influenced in childhood, subtly through things like disney, but that certainly is not something you will solve, even in 2 generations.
P.S. every female engineer at my startup is paid better than me and that is okay.
Actually, they HAVE been effective - it's simply not a "solved problem." Male nursing has climbed from ~3% in the 1970's to a bit over 10% active nurses, with nursing schools now reporting somewhere males comprising between 13% and 15% of current enrollments. Trying to paint that achievement as "not affecting change" makes me think you have an axe to grind.
Conversely, in IT, the percentage of women has declined significantly from it's mid-80's peak, and surveys show that those women are - on average - being paid less than their male counterparts, whereas men in nursing can expect to make more than their female counterparts.
Since you don't seem to know the difference between "anecdote" and "data," I can't say that that surprises me.
None of which suggests that we shouldn't be *trying* to solve it today. In fact, if it takes as long as "generations" to effect the change, i submit that "immediately" is exactly the most appropriate time to begin making efforts to change things.
You are assuming that women want to join STEM professions, which if they see they are not represented in, might think twice about doing so. So no, the idea that "corporate managers" are the only way to solve this is clearly incorrect, overly simplistic, and ensures any problems (if they exist, which the data suggests they do) will continue. It's nothing to do with man-hating or feminazism, just trying to restore the balance a fair and equal society strives to attain.
In less than a year, you will be 18, and in the eyes of our society, you will no longer be a child. Are you looking forward to people no longer referring to you as a "child prodigy?"
He has a point. Every story about women in STEM is plagued with posts trying to disrupt any effort to improve things. Typical arguments include: - There is no problem - Girls just don't like computers ...
Is it possible that either of these are true, even in a general sense? There are gender disparities in several fields. The median salary for nurses is $65,470, whereas the median salary for IT Technicians is $42,992
OMFG, who the hell would want to work in IT for less than $42K a year? Because if $42K/year is the median that would suggest half of all IT technicians are getting paid peanuts. Unless you live in a low-cost, rural small city or town, less than $42K/year is very goddamned low nowadays.
Look, if it upsets you that much, post your address and I'll be glad to mail you a hankie. A nice pink one to go with your politics.