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Bad Lockup Bug Plagues Linux
jones_supa (887896) writes "A hard to track system lockup bug seems to have appeared in the span of couple of most recent Linux kernel releases. Dave Jones of Red Hat was the one to first report his experience of frequent lockups with 3.18. Later he found out that the issue is present in 3.17 too. The problem was first suspected to be related to Xen. A patch dating back to 2005 was pushed for Xen to fix a vmalloc_fault() path that was similar to what was reported by Dave. The patch had a comment that read "the line below does not always work. Needs investigating!" But it looks like this issue was never properly investigated. Due to the nature of the bug and its difficulty in tracking down, testers might be finding multiple but similar bugs within the kernel. Linus even suggested taking a look in the watchdog code. He also concluded the Xen bug to be a different issue. The bug hunt continues in the Linux Kernel Mailing List."
I'm not telling anyone, though. Linus was mean to me.
It is a Genuine Advantage!
You Lunix lusers!
I tried upgrading Ubuntu to Windows 7. It isn't working.
This was predicted!
Oh. And sure, when things crash and you fsck and you didn't even get a
clue about what went wrong, you get frustrated. Tough. There are two kinds of reactions to that: you start being careful, or you start whining about a kernel debugger.
Quite frankly, I'd rather weed out the people who don't start being
careful early rather than late. That sounds callous, and by God, it _is_
callous. But it's not the kind of "if you can't stand the heat, get out
the the kitchen" kind of remark that some people take it for. No, it's
something much more deeper: I'd rather not work with people who aren't
careful. It's darwinism in software development.
It is, they can and do.
I don't care why you're posting AC
The problem was spotted. It just wasn't fixed.
That's why having a bug is worthy of a news item.
The kernel with the above problems isn't in the 14.04 ubuntu repo, the latest kernel in 14.04 is 3.13 and is not having this problem. I'm sure it will be fixed soon.
It is... that is what they are doing right now. In comparison, Windows has had hard lockup bugs in every major version of the OS that I have used from Windows 95 to 7, and those have never been and will never be fixed.
The fact that this is even brought to the spotlight shows the miracle of open source.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Because the Linux mentality is "Does it compile? Then ship it."
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The last mail in the thread, dated the 26th of November, explains that the Xen bug was a Xen bug and that the lockup was something different and traceable once the chap experiencing the bug managed to get a kernel backtrace.
Trying to become famous by taking photos. Visit my homepage please.
What, do you think every line of code is triple checked before including in the kernel? Bugs happen, sometimes they are there a long time and sometimes they are very, very diffucult to fix. The newest open source stuff is not used in nuclear reactors or air planes or life support devices. What ever is used is hopefully more than triple checked.
So, what's your major malfunction? There is no perfect code, there are no perfect checks. Get over it.
This was a funny joke and you fucktards with too many mod points can suck a dick (as you usually do)
I thought open source software was supposed to be better because everyone could see the code and spot problems.
Too often when I find a bug (even investigate the actual reason as well as I can) and talk about it in a mailing list or bug tracker, it's just crickets chirping. No one stands up and properly takes responsibility of the issue. I very well understand that this might be due to lacking developer resources, but it still results in bad software.
I have started wondering if modern software is simply too complex to be developed in high quality with the resources (manpower and funding) that open source gets.
It's pretty simple. If you are not a programmer, and being able to script your OS is not important to you, find some other OS. Linux is not used because it's free, it's used because you can pound it into whatever shape you want.
Talking about "quality going downhill" is meaningless drivel. File a bug or fix it yourself. I think you would be perfectly happy with a Mac. Some people manage to use Linux without issues, but the key part about having a successful Linux experience is to get your hands dirty when you do have issues, instead of running away to some other distro or OS.
You have made some bad distro choices. I don't know what convinced you that Fedora, the ne plus ultra of bleeding-edge distros, would be a stable experience. You allude to issues with Mint, I am skeptical. I am even more skeptical of a Debian update installing systemd. Unless you're running Jessie (i.e. Debian unstable) systemd will not be the default init system, and it's extremely unlikely that you would notice that it was running unless you decided to start using systemctl on the command line. If you were running Jessie, news flash: it is unstable. Yes, it has been stable enough to be usable for a long time. Clearly there is a difference between "stable" and "mostly stable".
Really what it sounds like you did was to install stable and then add the Jessie sources. It's understandable; stable has really old versions of almost anything, and apt-pinning should theoretically keep things under control. In practice, I have found this to be the shortest path to needing a complete reinstall.
Your biggest single problem is blaming the software when the problem is between your keyboard and your chair. If you're going to do dumb things, accept some responsibility for fixing your mistakes. However, it does sound like you will be most happy in Mac-land. Linux will not miss you.
This is not unique to open source software. Closed source code also is complex, and lacks developers. Bugs that aren't reported by big customers are easily ignored.
This is good for open source.
it is that systemd thang
say no to systemd
do not put your hands up and do not say i am not resisting
you must resist
you must fight back
you must disable
you must destroy
fight the good fight
kill all that is evil
If you aren't paying, you are the product.
This bug has been plagueing it since the early 90s. Namely, that it sucks.
Who will fix that, because Torvalds is obviously not up for the job.
In my experience, closed source software comes with much less bugs to begin with. With OSS, even some essential features can be glitchy or partially implemented.
I have started wondering if modern software is simply too complex to be developed in high quality with the resources (manpower and funding) that open source gets.
Consider how your experience differs from commercial software. Most of the time there is no channel for reporting bugs unless you are a multi-seat corporate customer! And you statistically never get direct access to their bug tracker; yes I'm aware that some corps open those up but they are far and away in the minority.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Linux support in a nutshell: blame the user.
You must be an idiot then. Windows is "dumbed down" for idiots that can't think.
I don't want to switch to *BSD..... and buy a Mac.
So which is it? I got introduced to Linux because I had a Mac. I first started messing around with Terminal.app and it's gone from there. After a botch attempt at Linux on a generic laptop and hating having to deal with finding GNU Tools for Windows I'm thinking of going back.
It has a UI that "just works" and I don't have to dick around with settings. Even IPv6 is very easy to set up with a lot of brokers straight from the Network settings. But it also has gcc, clang, make, etc that makes life easier for doing development.
In my experience, closed source software comes with much less bugs to begin with. With OSS, even some essential features can be glitchy or partially implemented.
While I'd agree that much open source software is just hacked together and shipped when it does everything the developers care about, most of the bugs in our software (not open source per se, but our customers get all our source so they can modify it if they want) are caused by third-party, closed-source libraries that we use because licensing them was much cheaper than writing the same code from scratch. I haven't seen a single crash in a year that wasn't due to third party, closed source code.
And, financially, it still makes sense, because developing workarounds for their bugs is still cheaper than writing the code from scratch.
Can confirm it happens in 12.04
If the user is rolling their own operating system with a linux kernel? Yup.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
> First got into it ... because Linux was totally stable
If stable is your top priority, Fedora is approximately the worst possible choice. Fedora is essentially Red Hat Beta. If you want stable, the devel / beta branch is not for you. You'll probably be much happier with Red Hat or its twin, CentOS.
Also, you mentioned that you did an "upgrade" to Debian Unstable. You didn't mention any _reason_ for doing that. If stability is a top priority for you, don't upgrade just because you can, don't fix it if it aint broke.
Mac OSX may indeed be a good choice for you also. It is certified Unix and if you use the commondand line in Linux you'll find that day-to-day tasks are the same on a Mac. System internals are different of course, but bash, sed, awk, grep, and vim work just like they do on Linux.
So are you saying they failed your genuine advantage check?
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Check out Mint 17.1 Mate, it's about Ubuntu LTS (where you don't really need to leave to default repos for the most part) and still refining Gnome 2.
Linux is sadly stuck in endless cycles of waiting for better software and better drivers, that will never end even though we might find a (temporary) sweet spot sometimes.
There once was a cycle of well supported, just works, ever improving releases. Ubuntu 8.04, debian lenny, Ubuntu 10.04, debian squeeze (ignoring some debates about the 8.04 launch). I'd say Mint is about the same and the 17.x series is about staying on LTS with a bit more hardware support and desktop features/stability each time.
I love the assumption that this isn't happening in the corporate world.
It is. It just happens behind closed doors. Thus, patches.
those have never been and will never be fixed Or you have never really tried. I dont let them BS me.
I have had 3 bugs fixed from MS and 2 that were something I did.
I pay them 390 bucks (was 250 last time I used it). If it is a real issue and they fix it I get my 390 refunded. I also never had to pay them as I used my free incidents that come with every copy of windows I buy. Plus the 10 I get from MSDN every year. I think my company gets a few hundred every year thru their volume agreement.
They will even remote dial into your computer if you get the right guy and they will live debug it.
With open source I can crack it open and probably fix it myself. Taking time away from my other work to fix it test it and ride it thru to submission. With MS I pay someone to do that for me.
Basically it comes down to with MS they do not want you abusing them with misconfigured systems. They charge you for it. With open source you can run people around all you like and me culpa if it is a misconfig. MS is not dealing with competent people all the time. They are dealing with people where the idea of moving the mouse around is picking it up and holding it to the screen. They are dealing with opportunity cost and they charge you for it.
The fact that this is even brought to the spotlight shows the miracle of open source
Open source projects have their own 'never fixes' too. Mozilla has a few dozen that are locked out from public view. The Bash and heartbleed thing from earlier this year show that bugs can lurk in open source for decades. They are not the only examples too.
It is not 'better' or 'worse'. It is just a mater of cost. Either time or money. Its software. I use the hell out of both types.
Get an operating system whose kernel works. OpenBSD.
Seems to me this is exactly what is happening.
There seems to be a big chasm opening in the Linux world. Not to worry though, there is stable Linux out there. There are two forks of Gnome and a large variety of alternative desktops to choose from. You can still install Jessie without systemd and Devuan, Slackware, and Gentoo intend to keep that option open.
As for the lockup bug in TFA, in most projects, the kernel versions in question would be internal release only. The outside world would never see them. For example, my debian system is on 3.16 even when I enabled the backports repo.
The final bit, not all soft lockups are fatal. They are never a good thing, but they sometimes just indicate that something is taking longer than it was ever expected to and it needs to either be speeded up or broken into more manageable pieces so something else gets a chance to run.
Systemd rears it's ugly head...
So your claim is that the bug you are talking about is unknown? That you haven't seen it? My, that's quite a problem in logic, isn't it?
>But it also has gcc, clang, make, etc that makes life easier for doing development.
Also, Xcode makes life easy for doing development. Writing code in emacs or vim just seems like an exercise in masochism after you get used to a modern IDE.
ROFLMAO Give them more money for generic answers out of a script. Linux is for people who know how to think, Windows is for brainless idiots that don't know what to do except screw up an already screwed up OS.
OpenBSD assumes all bugs are security issues and treats them as such. They don't just sweep them under the rug for 9 years.
Have you ever compared enterprise class software (I also count Windows 7 Enterprise) with OSS Software? Windows does not even reliably support STR and resume. Using multiple monitors is a PITA.
Then there is Software like PTC Integrity which was made of pure Pain. Let's go on with DOORS and have also a look at Lotus Notes. Let's not forget all the Software a big company writes itself. Preferably in JAVA, which is - oh fun - next in this list.
Enterprise Software means Software which is so crappy and expensive an individual would _never_ buy. Enterprise Software is typically not OSS Software (at least I know none).
A couple of months ago I saw the entertainment system on a 777 reboot and noticed a 2.6 series kernel...
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Actually we can't be completely sure. How this thing works in Ubuntu, is that they chose the 3.13 kernel for 14.04, but they still selectively apply newer patches from upstream on top of that. See the most recent changelog. Of course they include only conservative bugfixes and no cutting edge stuff, which makes it unlikely that the lockup bug has slipped in there.
not graduate students who pose in front of a mirror daily and yell at people...
The difference is that Windows won't let you roll back to a version that is known not to have the lockup bugs.
#naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
So it may be a "bad" lockup bug in the sense that nobody knows exactly what causes it, but it's not "bad" in the sense that people should worry overly.
Why?
Dave Jones sees it only under insane loads (CPU loads of 150+) running a stress tester that is designed to do crazy things (trinity). And he can reproduce it on only one of his machines, and even there it takes hours. And it happens on a debug kernel that has DEBUG_PAGEALLOC and other explicit (and complex) debug code enabled. And even then the bug is a "Hmm. We made no progress in the last 21 seconds", rather than anything stranger.
In other words, it's "bad" in the sense that any unknown behavior is bad, but it's unknown mainly because it's so hard to trigger. Nobody else than core developers should really care. And those developers do care, so it's not like it's worrisome there either. It just takes longer to figure out because the usual "bisect it" approach isn't very easy when it can take a day to reproduce..
I'd say in general, stay away from the 3D accelerated desktops (all of them) if you aren't 100% sure you have the right graphics and driver. Better safe than sorry, then you only have to worry about the other issues.
Your time must truly be worthless much like yourself.
How does pointing that out improve Linux in any way?
So we should accept Linux's crappiness just because some of the worst case scenarios in commercial software are equally bad?
I thought the dream was that open source should be significantly higher quality than closed source.
This can only mean one thing: not enough systemd. systemd needs to expand much further and start replacing the Linux kernel itself to ensure this kind of thing won't happen.
Let us make something entirely clear. You sound like an idiot. '
Remote Dial' is not even remotely the correct term there and generally your statements felt like they are constructed from a pamphlet.
We can make the general statement that relatively complex software will contain laden bugs. The issue is not that bugs are present in the code, but rather how they are dealt with when they are identified. I think you will find most major bugs are handled by prominent community members and professionals alike with relative speed.
Secondly, you seem to be confusing paid support from MS with community support in linux. This is really an apple to oranges comparison and makes no sense. If you are in need of paid support then one of the major vendors generally provides this avenue. I've found it to be useful in the past and have had custom software shipped out to solve problems. Later, those fixes were pushed upstream after the vendor unblocked me.
The crux of the issue today is a bug was discovered and impacts newer kernels. I'm not sure any vendor is shipping this kernel with their stable product. It's nice that early adopters discovered the issue, but generally it's not impacting enterprise customers.
On the comment regarding fixing the bug yourself... I'm not sure what your point is there. It is an option to address the issue yourself, but there are generally both free and paid avenues depending on the popularity of the software. I find maintainers more then happy to address issues unless the software has entered EOL from the authors perspective.
You may have had a point in there somewhere, but it looks like you just rehashed several OUT OF PLACE arguments. Again, you seem like a fucking idiot.
If they hadn't written this crappy code, this wouldn't have happened.
So what?
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
What does the E in RHEL stand for?
Since I've got your attention & while we're at it, how about the second S in OSS?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Operating systems can be written by anyone who wants to, dumbass.
Have you ever compared enterprise class software (I also count Windows 7 Enterprise) with OSS Software? Windows does not even reliably support STR and resume. Using multiple monitors is a PITA.
Suspend and multiple monitors have always worked great in Windows for me. Under Linux, they have also worked fine in some machines, but I have also occasionally experienced serious problems with those areas. During recent times I have found out that even laptop screen brightness adjustment cannot be expected to work reliably out of the box under Linux.
> OS X may be stable but it has a short shelf life. You might find your hardware unsupported in 3 or 4 years
I don't know if that might be true of some iOS mobile devices or where that FUD comes from, but my six year old Mac from 2008 is going strong and I just installed an OS update. My employer wanted to replace it, but it's a quad core with16GB of RAM - more than sufficient for today's software. Bureaucracy said the budget had to be spent on computer equipment, so we upgraded one of the four drives to an SSD. The old RAID was fast enough, but I guess the SSD will save a few minutes per week. Later we used the budget to add a Macbook Pro. It will probably make sense to upgrade my desktop in 2015 or 2016, when it's seven or eight years old.
That's the perspective of a guy who isn't even paying for the upgrade. It's free to me, but if I can run the latest OS and multiple IDEs and browsers open on four monitors with no noticeable lag, why would I replace it?
RHEL is an entire distribution. Does this magically make every package inside "enterprise"?
I was referring to single tools and programs. Before you hit me with that "Windows is not a single tool" bat - it does not contain too much. Let's take usable entities instead of packages, software, tools, etc.
And that "doubled Software thing", it was kind of "finger intelligence", i.e. if your fingers type stupid things for themselves. I have another such example: Ever typed Touring complete instead of Turing complete? How about reading holocaust instead of localhost? ;)
With "air plane" he probably meant the mission critical parts of an aircraft.
Or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS Mate, without the Mint middleman ...
I think the answer to that one is "all over the map". Certain aspects of open source are done with excessive attention to niche functionality because there's either funding or the kind of geeky details that have nerds jumping all over it to implement. Other features, particularly features you'd use if you're a... less than tech-savvy user, tend to be ignored. Obligatory XKCD. On the bright side, it's not like code actually rots so the resource problem can be rephrased as how quickly does the environment change with new hardware and languages and libraries and standards and protocols and so on. Not to mention input paradigms like multi-touch versus keyboard and mouse. Eventually it has to slow down. PCIe has existed longer than any of the standards that preceded it. USB has lasted longer than than the standards that preceded it. H.264 has lasted longer than any of the standards that preceded it. Now we've got computers that can fit into the palm of our hands, how much smaller and different could they get? I guess sci-fi isn't out of ideas yet but if keyboard and mouse has gotten us through the last 30 years I expect touch to last longer and what follows touch even longer.
Another perspective is simply considering if the users' needs are going to rise infinitely, which I suppose is a special case of the above. Just because Photoshop continues to add features doesn't mean that people need photo editing of infinite complexity. It might simply be that once you've reached a certain level of functionality open source is good enough for most people on a fairly permanent basis. I know at least a few tools that I more or less consider "done", like just recently I installed Babaschess which was last updated in 2007, it's abandoned yet fully functional. I have QuickPar installed, which hasn't been updated since 2004 yet I also consider "done". With open source people like to fiddle with it but there as well there's software which has been essentially unchanged for years. The pace might be glacial at times but ultimately I think open source will win out. Just look at Linux/BSD, Windows is the only one with a homegrown kernel and I suspect that's mostly history. I doubt Microsoft would start writing another kernel from scratch today.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Funny, I'm moving in the opposite direction, but reach the same conclusion. Working with (most) modern IDEs just seem like masochism after you've used VIM.
The learning curve for vim is horrible. I can understand anyone who gives up before reaching reasonable productivity levels. Once you've gone through it, however, the IDEs are just no competition.
Shachar
This is but the price we pay for not dedicating an entire core to systemd. If systemd did not have to share a core with the other processes, then it would be free to seek out and steril...correct these trifling kernel issues and the ones responsible.
Wow, I must just be imagining running VLC on my Android tablet to play files on my NAS server. And Google must be quaking in their boots at the threat from Windows tablets and phones.
As for a few weeks of uptime supposedly being impressive, we reboot our Linux servers once a year, just because (or when we upgrade to a new OS release). I reboot my Linux desktop every few months because, by then, it's got a few kernel releases out of date. Damn it's a crappy OS.
Who's the middle man making the theme and wallpaper then.
Well, I'll certainly have to try it but if it's like the old days of totem player as default, "warning : do you want to install the mp3 codecs" and no flash plug-in, it's not my kind of thing anymore. On the other hand Ubuntu is excellent if you "roll your own" (between quotes as every installation of everything is brain-dead easy and automated) : use the pxe or netinstall installer, get the base command line system (that has most everything for such an environment) and add what you want. It's about a better debian. I only wish it had a clean state "ubuntu + lxde" iso as debian does, because I am not fond of what lubuntu does (theme and additional software)
I don't know if that might be true of some iOS mobile devices or where that FUD comes from, but my six year old Mac from 2008
Well, I guess if Yosemite runs on YOUR six year old Mac you must be right, and anything anyone else says must be FUD.
Then again, OSX March was released in 2013, and dropped support for early-2009 13-inch Mac Book Pros.
So, just to make it perfectly clear to you, they've ALREADY dropped support for a laptop that's a year NEWER than your computer, being dropped by OS that's already a year and a half old.
Mavericks (and Yosemite) also dropped support for any Xserve's older than 2009 (so server class hardware got dropped after just 4 years of support), and any mac mini's older than 2009 got dropped as well.
Millions of Macs from 2008s stopped being supported over a year and half a go. You got lucky.
And should I add, this is mostly about trivialities. I welcome you pushing Ubuntu LTS Mate. Even Ubuntu Unity has some qualities (seen friends running it on their own, it is made for the 1366 by 768 laptop)
Mainly because Windows 3.11 isn't supported on current hardware...
Since every bug this year needs to have a catchy name for the headlines, I propose we call this one "Davy Jones' Lockup."
So, what is then a bluescreen?
it depends on the open source project, and it is not always a consequence of the amount of development resources.
Some projects are more conservative, and consider squashing bugs, especially regressions, as very important, and that means that users of those projects get a stable base to work with. Primary example: the Linux kernel.
Some projects seem to be able to ignore both bugs and regressions for years. That means that the users of those projects are scared at every upgrade, and know that they cannot rely on it for anything important. Primary example: the wine project.
I feel they are really different tools for different things.
I would hate to do much of my Python scripting or fortran-barely-beyond-punchcards wrangling with an IDE, which in the first case would force me to setup hundreds of little "projects", and in the 2nd case would fight me every step of the way because nothing is really standard. Sometimes, all I want is a good editor, and for me, emacs is exactly this (and vim/sublime/ed/notepad.exe/whatever for other people - whatever floats your boat).
On the other hand, for large and reasonably standard structured projects, IDEs are great.
I was most recently using Debian, but my computer got messed up after I did an update and that SystemD thing got installed.
Yeah, Debian totally jumped the shark with Jessie. A bunch of stuff broke on my machine - I suspect it was systemd. Couldn't go back to Wheezy though - I bought a new MoBo, and Wheezy didn't even support the *wired* LAN connection out-of-the-box.
I haven't been happy with other developments, either. I used to love GNOME 2, but I tried GNOME 3 and it was like using Windows 8. It's just a bad and dumb experience.
I never even tried G3 - the screen shots and reviews were enough to keep me away. I switched to XFCE at that point, and I've been pretty happy with it. The file manager is only adequate - but then there are no really good graphical file managers in Linux, and I've learned to live with Thunar's limitations. (Dolphin came close to being as good as Windows Explorer when I dialled down the K-Bling - but that was back when you could still install a small part of KDE without getting stuck with the whole damned ugly fat-filled lot of pseudo-dependencies).
I don't know what to do at this point. I can't keep using Linux if its stability is crap, and the other major open source software is caca these days. I don't want to switch to *BSD. I don't like Windows at all. So I think maybe I'm just going to sell my computer, and buy a Mac.
Although I cringe at the thought of Apple and its walled gardens, I hear you and I feel your pain. The Linux landscape seems more homogeneous and less 'choiceful' than it did even a few years ago. But at least give Xubuntu a try before you decide to give up on Linux altogether. And FWIW, I haven't experienced any crashes at all, (fingers crossed), and my installation is as up-to-date as automatic updates can make it.
'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
And I've seen steward(esses) use iPads for work. So what?
Wow, a few weeks of uptime! My RHEL workstation - which sees a very varied use and high loads of loooong times, with lots of pheripals - regularly goes for months...
I've been a Linux user continuously through out that whole period, and I get what you're saying. For the last couple of years I've found Linux a lot less stable. Sometimes the culprit looks like the graphical environment/drivers, sometimes maybe not. But it's been really frustrating and I've not know where to begin hunting it down. Bug reports sure, but when your bug stays open for 18 months.....
There's an imbalance in development. Under windows, every hardware manufacturer does all they can to ensure their hardware is good - investing a lot of money in developing and testing the drivers. Under linux, the manufacturers usually don't care - aside from some server hardware, there just aren't enough resources to justify it from a business perspective. So development falls to three-man team on a side project, and sometimes it's down to community volunteers working from reverse-engineered specifications.
I have started wondering if modern software is simply too complex to be developed in high quality with the resources (manpower and funding) that open source gets.
It depends on scope of the project and who is interested in it. Most of the work in Linux now is paid work by companies that need Linux to do certain things.
Hence why the robots will take over.
FOSS, and now vendor s/w is heading towards a democratic model: bugs that get fixed are not necessarily the critical ones, but the ones that effect the most users. That's great cause it's usual the critical bugs are the ones that effects the most people. But nowadays, the critical ones are the most popular/branding ones, which are not necessarily critical.
Well, I guess if Yosemite runs on YOUR six year old Mac you must be right, and anything anyone else says must be FUD.
FUD is when people made false statements to try to prove their point. As an example of FUD, here's your statement:
Then again, OSX March was released in 2013, and dropped support for early-2009 13-inch Mac Book Pros.
I'm assuming you made an error and meant OS X Mavericks, not OS X March? Even if so, you're absolutely wrong. Mavericks and Yosemite can run on any MBP (Macbook Pro) from 2007 on. So, maybe you made a second typo and had really meant 2009 MacBooks (not Pros)? Alas, Mavericks/Yosemite (they have the same system requirements) will run on early-2009 Mac Books, as well. So, you're basically just entirely wrong. Here's the Apple support page if you don't believe me: http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT6412.
I do think it's worth noting that the Intel macs that are not supported are either 32-bit only or computers with 32-bit EFI. Mavericks and Yosemite are 64-bit only, so the 32-bit processors computers are out. Most of the Macs with 32-bit EFIs can easily run Yosemite, albeit not officially. I'm running Yosemite on my 2006 Mac Pro 1,1. It runs great and was very easy to install.
So, just to make it perfectly clear to you, they've ALREADY dropped support for a laptop that's a year NEWER than your computer, being dropped by OS that's already a year and a half old.
Nope. Apple has in no way "dropped support" for any laptops still under warranty or support contract. They merely do not support the older Macs with the latest version of the Operating system. The minimally supported systems are still at least 4-5 years old and 7+ years old in many cases (like my own). Works for me.
Mavericks (and Yosemite) also dropped support for any Xserve's older than 2009 (so server class hardware got dropped after just 4 years of support), and any mac mini's older than 2009 got dropped as well.
Apple dropped the Xserve entirely--they stopped selling Xserves and announced the end of the line, what, 4 years ago? Too bad, IMHO, but announced and expected.
Something like Apache?
No and no.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Are you guys going to complain about every but that shows up in every OS. This is basically the same speak I see at every windows release. Even IOS gets its share of flack. The simple fact is that if we waited for the code to be perfect for every OS release then, we would never see any OS releases. The mentality is not "Does it compile? Then ship it." it is "Does it work well enough to be useable? Then ship it." This is pretty much the global mentality for software development. We programers want to make perfect code for you, but that is not a simple task with all the hardware out there, and the problem that as more and more code is written it becomes harder and harder to debug. Please cut them a bit of slack. If you are going to poke fun at them please stick to design decisions, at least those are intentional.
Try doing that on a laptop with multiple suspend-resume cycles throughout the day. Linux continues to suck ass while Windows continues to kick ass. I'm currently looking at a 4 month uptime (I just close the lid when I leave office) on my work laptop.
Linux only works in situations where system admins have to babysit it or in embedded products where its stripped down and and kept far away from the user.
What the hell does Linux give the general user?
Indeed that is becoming the hot question.
Back in the day, Linux did give some benefits: it was clearly more stable, more secure, and faster than Windows.
Is that true these days? Is Linux these days unambiguously more stable, more secure, and faster than Windows?
Why should I use Linux at all, especially on the desktop?
So,
I guess he is human after all.
Go figure...
Hardlockup... Bluescreen...
Is there a difference?
Woooosh!!!
Got it?
And the others after you?
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
Something like Apache?
Point taken. I never directly thought about apache being "typical enterprise software". Of course there are more then (squid, trafficserver, postfix, Amanda, Bacula, etc.). Might be I missed that expensive and shitty factor here.
No and no.
Sounded stupid, right? That's what I said. Shit happens.
Both of my Linux laptops suspend/resume just fine, thanks.
And if you've not rebooted a Windows machine in 4 months, this means you're not running Windows Update and thus it's nearly certain that it's part of a botnet by now.
Suspend and multiple monitors have always worked great in Windows for me.
Resuming for me takes more time than rebooting until I have a usable desktop. Also some programs are not working correctly when resuming (Lotus Sametime, PTC Integrity).
Longest I ran this machine continuously was five days. Some days required as much as three reboots. My former company notebook ran Ubuntu and did not display
that behaviour at all. In fact I did not (re)boot very much.
Multiple monitors have windows popping up on any screen. Often I need to search for a stupid Window which "popped up" _below_ another one. So effectively it is hidden.
Well... there's no walled garden on the Mac side. Nevertheless I used to cringe at the thought of leaving Linux. Then I just got sick of dealing with all that crap of stuff breaking all the time, and I had better things to do than spend a whole night till 2am finding out why the latest update broke something. So I learned to stop worrying and love the Apple.
Well, has he tried it?
BSOD is an error trap screen. The kernel was going to die, the error was caught, the crees was displayed, and the system then halts.
Saying that the BSOD is not a kernel problem is possibly correct, but not certain.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
If you are using an overly verbose language with a lot of code you could automatically generate *cough* Java *cough* it is better to use an IDE. For everything else that is pure text entry Vim is superior.
Xcode is closely integrated with LLVM, Clang and Git not to mention the interface builder makes developing complex multi-frame interfaces a hell of a lot easier...is VIM even integrated with GCC or have any kind of version control? Emacs probably has most of that shit but still....it doesn't have the little productivity boosters like mouseover some library and get a popup of documentation etc. Why use 1980s tools for programming in the 21st century?
I'm assuming you made an error and meant OS X Mavericks, not OS X March?
Yes, Mavericks. Not sure what freudian slip caused that.
Even if so, you're absolutely wrong. Mavericks and Yosemite can run on any MBP (Macbook Pro) from 2007 on.
http://support.apple.com/en-us...
Ok, that's interesting.
Now Check:
http://support.apple.com/en-us...
"
MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid-2009 or later),
MacBook Pro (15-inch or 17-inch, Mid/Late 2007 or later)
"
They are explicitly excluding the early 09' and earlier MBP 13" with Mavericks, while Yosemite doesn't mention that.
Now I'm curious if its actually supported by Yosemite or not.
Most of the Macs with 32-bit EFIs can easily run Yosemite, albeit not officially. I'm running Yosemite on my 2006 Mac Pro 1,1. It runs great and was very easy to install.
I hear you, but being able to make it work, and it being supported are worlds apart. Apple dropped support for it. Its not pleasant being in that position, even if you can "make it work".
Apple dropped the Xserve entirely--they stopped selling Xserves and announced the end of the line, what, 4 years ago? Too bad, IMHO, but announced and expected.
People buying servers do not expect support to drop that quickly. Just because apple disco'd producing the line doesn't mean that support for the ones they did sell should end quicker.
Nope. Apple has in no way "dropped support" for any laptops still under warranty or support contract.
Nobody said they did. But many computers 4 years old were not being supported when mavericks came out. That's all the OP claimed, and all I confirmed.
Bottom line, with Apple once the apple care runs out, your guess is as good as mine whether anything that comes out thereafter will be supported on your system. It might be. It might be something you can shoehorn on yourself without official support. Or it might not be at all. That's not FUD.
I'm no saying other vendors or that OSS is necessarily better, but lets not put Apple on a pedestal and say that it IS better. Because its really not.
I went through this around 2007-2008 when after running Debian as a desktop for about five years on two desktops, my wife and I got tired of the breakage with every major update. While I was willing to put up with more, my wife got tired of me spending a few hours trying to sort things out on her desktop with every update -- often basic things like graphics driver stuff in a multi-monitor setup. Power savings never worked (I gave up on it).
What often drove updates was wanting to use the latest version of Eclipse or Firefox or other applications. My wife went first, going to a Mac Pro, and I followed about a year later. We're still using that hardware, although upgraded in various ways (memory, drives, graphics cards and monitors).
That said, Linux is everywhere and those years of working with it all the time have been very useful in maintaining servers (including in VirtualBox) and embedded hardware (NAS, routers, media, other) which generally face less updates that desktops. I feel Linux settled down to stability a couple years after that (driven in part by Ubuntu's widespread adoption) -- although it sounds like instability has picked up again. I feel that in general about FOSS -- maybe the old guard is getting bored or old or tired or busy or burned out and new people move to web stuff?
Of course now, my wife's Mac Pro from 2007 is not supported for an upgrade past Snow Leopard. Mine is, but I'm not sure if it is worth it yet. But, more and more, software coming out has a minimum of later versions. And there are no more Snow Leopard updates. And my wife's machine has a sporadic kernel panic or something once every few weeks or so. And mine has also been doing some lockups, although not recently after resetting the PRAM.
There were some big disappointments leaving Debian. I liked cut-and-paste under Linux where selecting something put it in the copy buffer. Mac is harder, including weirdness about having to menu click within the selected text to pull up a copy menu. Apt get was great (when stuff was compatible) and a sad loss to not have. Also, Mac's GUI design with a single global menu is just *terrible* on a multi-monitor setup, especially if the monitors are different heights; having a menu per application window like Linux makes so much more sense. I also don't like the fact that I could easily (without copyright concerns) virtualize old Linux setups, but you can't really do that with Mac OS X -- in that sense, all my work feels "contaminated" by copyright issues. That said, Apple Time Machine "just works" as a backup solution (ignoring the risks of having a plugged in backup hard drive in a worst case).
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
What does AMD have anything to do related to the text you quoted?
those issues with resuming are usually the result of bad 3rd party software or drivers. ironically the same shit that makes it misbehave in Linux too. The window popping problem is also an app problem, many give no consideration that they might be on multi monitor setups or that another window may be in front of them.
Every commercial software product I've worked on has had at least some level of unit testing, QA and UAT before it's considered ready for prime time. You'd be sacked for using, "Does it compile?" as your metric for it being ready.
as soon as I read "all the hardware out there" I knew it was bullshit
Apple dropped the Xserve entirely--they stopped selling Xserves and announced the end of the line, what, 4 years ago? Too bad, IMHO, but announced and expected.
You're server-ing wrong. Servers should be cycled out after three years, and they should only be non-RAID, non-redundant-power, non-ECC-Reg RAM, non-VGA, non-rack-mount Mac Minis. It's the Apple(TM) way.
Although I cringe at the thought of Apple and its walled gardens, I hear you and I feel your pain. The Linux landscape seems more homogeneous and less 'choiceful' than it did even a few years ago. But at least give Xubuntu a try before you decide to give up on Linux altogether. And FWIW, I haven't experienced any crashes at all, (fingers crossed), and my installation is as up-to-date as automatic updates can make it.
The whole thing has become too complicated and it makes hobbyists cringe. Not just the kernel, X, everything else. That's why you mostly see corporations funding the work. Maybe it was because it was funded by corporations that it became to complicated to begin with.
Remains to be seen if the efforts to replace X will turn out something that is actually simpler and better though.
Before the *-women groups (debian-women et al) became the focus, it was.
Now linux is just another garbage social justice movement and anyone not an SJW is kicked out (see: Ted Walther).
" They use
sophisticated unreleased high level tools which autogenerate C code. THAT is why the c "source" comes out looking like entries in the obfuscated (or underhanded,hah) C code contest.....because it was generated by a piece of fucking software, not your greasy ass heros."
Is this true?
Most software for linux was feature complete a few years ago, especially desktop software. It should be polished, kept at same version.
We should beable to install KDE 2, Gnome 1, etc and only bugs patched in them
Hah.
NVIDIA, AMD, and Intel do care. That's most of the hardware that matters today. Even Samsung uses Linux in their products a lot.
We used to make fun of MicroSoft for that.
Linux used to NEVER crash.
It sucks now.
Ever since they went from the stable/dev release cycle.
"Some projects seem to be able to ignore both bugs and regressions for years. That means that the users of those projects are scared at every upgrade, and know that they cannot rely on it for anything important. Primary example: the wine project."
Another example: Debian.
And hand Intel a monopoly? Careful there.
Table-ized A.I.
So why the fuck haven't they?
have you checked the children??
android and chrome OS are shaping up as windows alternatives. I just bought a powerful computer running chrome OS, and it only cost 160 dollars.
Good luck getting code into mainline past Linus with code that just compiles. Also for the uninformed, there is massive testing with automated booting on several different types of hardware. And that is only for the vanilla releases which no one should use directly, on top of that comes the distribution testing and patching.
Linux is for embedded, and for servers. It excels in both areas, and should rightly be admired for what it has achieved. Linux on the desktop though, is an exercise in futility. The reason is that a desktop user interface is at least an order of magnitude more complex and nuanced that writing a server OS. Not to mention the fact that building a coherent desktop user experience requires pretty solid leadership - something the Open Source community necessarily lacks.
Sorry guys, but that's just how it is. Carry on playing with your desktops, and your Unity and your Pulseaudio and all that. I'm sure it's fun, and I'm sure that I'd have been pretty into it when I used to write code as a hobby. But it's probably best if you just stop trying to pretend that what you're building is in any way comparable to either Windows or OS X.
I thought open source software was supposed to be better because everyone could see the code and spot problems.
It is the case: the person that merged the patch had access to this comment, and this person should have asked for details and maybe fixes before merging.
http://www.sonnettech.com/prod...
You're mounting that mac wrong.
Kde 2 may be a bit too far back. 3.x was fine. 4.x jumped the shark with Plasma.
The latter is not unlikely. Corporations seems to love policy management, and shit seems to have hit the fan with the into of policykit. A xml monstrosity delegating limited "root" abilities based on various criteria (like consolekit/logind "seat" status).
Never mind that whole debacle with Puleeaudio, that started with a simple set of usb headphones...
Automagical turtles all the way down.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
Which *could* be a bug in the kernel and that was highly believable a few years ago. More recently, not so much. BSOD are very rare except for hardware errors, driver errors and corrupt system files.
What's happening is Linux is catching up to where Microsoft was several years ago. Don't let the pretty skin and fast hardware running it fool you. It's still in a primitive state.
Computer support in a nutshell: blame the user.
It's accurate 99% of the time.
And it's really irrelevant to getting it fixed. If you're running Windows, go to Best Buy and ask them. Mac OS, go to an Apple store. Linux does not have either option. Especially if you stray outside the narrow realm of the well-supported, you can either be an active part of the solution or find a different OS. No one is trying to be mean or disrespectful by saying so, there simply is no alternative. This is more or less by design: almost all Linux projects will avoid anything that reduces the power of the experienced user. This doesn't always conflict with empowering novice users, but no one is going to lose sleep if it does happen.
Linux is my desktop. Directly and indirectly I contribute very little if anything to its development. For better or worse, Linux development is driven by the Android, embedded, server, and supercomputing sectors, not the desktop. If you come to Linux with the idea that it is desktop-focused and that you do not have any responsibility to debug or fix it when it breaks, please in all sincerity do yourself a favor and use a different OS. Linux may be stable enough for your use case today, but if you only know how to handle it when it's working perfectly, that 1-in-100 bug will cancel out every good experience you've ever had and then some.
That doesn't always happen, but for example, MATE is a fork of the GNOME 2 code doing more of less what you request.
weirdness about having to menu click within the selected text to pull up a copy menu.
Or right click if you use a regular mouse (I never could get the hang of Apple mice), or two-finger click/tap on a trackpad, or just Cmd-C.
Mac's GUI design with a single global menu is just *terrible* on a multi-monitor setup
Yosemite has somewhat solved this, but the menu in most applications is more of a lookup for the keyboard shortcut than something you actually use. In Yoseimite you get a menu and a dock on every monitor, and it's better, but it's not perfect. I do wonder about that top menu bar, but at the same time it's nice being able to glance to the top of the screen to see what application is active. And of course, it's really easy to hit with a mouse.
hard lockup bugs in every major version of the OS that I have used from Windows 95 to 7,
Well, Windows 95 & 98 sure - everything prior too. But I've not seen a lockup bug in Windows since then, and I use the damn thing every day at work. Hell, OS X locks up more than Windows, and I've only ever had that happen when I was doing bad things to the graphics driver while writing openGL code.
those have never been and will never be fixed.
The implication of this statement is that not only do you know what these bugs are, but you are able to reproduce them and are maybe even willing to share the details on them. I'd like to find out what they are, if only to cause my workmate's machines to lock up when they're out getting coffee...
Most of the time there is no channel for reporting bugs unless you are a multi-seat corporate customer!
Apple has a bug reporting tool, and one that actually gets responses too. If you use OS X Server you even get an email address for problems, and they even reply - it's astonishing. Most of the commercial software that I've actually bought (which is normally pretty cheap software to be honest) also had pretty responsive support. Now if you buy Microsoft software, or Adobe software, or whatever, then sure - they don't listen but they do collect crash reports & so-on (if you let them). I'm not sure that they qualify as 'most software' though, I suppose it depends on how you count it.
My Dell laptop that I'm forced to run Linux on is absolutely abyssmal at sleep/resume, or display off. I had to turn off all sleep/suspend/display off functions to keep the machine running. And Dell ships the goddamn thing with Linux. Apparently, also the only software in the Unix world that supports High-DPI displays properly is Opera. Everything else that I've run licks balls on a 3840 resolution laptop.
On the other hand, I plug my Windows laptop into the same docking station, and it remembers all 4 displays attached to it, all their configurations. When I switch to the other docking station, it remembers all 4 of THOSE displays and their configurations, and adapts everything perfectly for it.
I plug the Linux laptop into it's docking station, and it just stares at me like... "oh, ok, now what?" .. and then freezes when I tell it to find the displays.
Also, Ubuntu's login program can't even used the saved window configuration. My damn login screens in X are all sideways on my portrait mode monitors.. and then it loads the configuration after logging in.
The state of multi-display support, and laptop support in Linux is just as shit-tastic as it was 10 years ago, which was just as shit-tastic as it was 20 years ago.
And hand Intel a monopoly? Careful there.
Poor innocent Tablizer...did you really think Linux users or developers wanted a diverse ecosystem, the freedom to
choose what CPU and platform to use?
The goal was to serve corporate interests all along...tsk, tsk.
It is the other way around...Intel hands you a monopoly, partners with local schools, inserts itself in the stream of
taxpayer money.
The monopoly is already well underway...it is called "education for the global workforce" and has been underway for a long
time now.....independence was declared obsolete.
Where oh where have you been Tablizer? You are 30-50 years too late I am afraid.
They took the monopoly already, called it "workforce training" and replaced education and U.S. independence
in one fell swoop. And it was "conservatives" and "Republicans" who started the ball rolling...a planned economy is more
profitable and more efficient, you see. You don't have to worry about the idea that individuals have "souls" or any pesky
obsolete ideas like that.
They are just clay to be molded, pigeons to be trained, dogs to be fed the proper stimuli and grant money for pre-determined
outcomes.
The "monopoly" was already long-established, Intel is just one of many players in this scam.
There is a local public-private partnership "school" right around the block from me, "No Child Left Behind" is their excuse for treason and making the U.S. commiting suicide and turn its back on the "free market" (it is a little late for that, but bear with me).
Don't you see Tablizer? Communism is just MORE EFFICIENT and MORE PROFITABLE.
You partner with local schools, the taxpayer trains your workforce for you.
No need to ever give anyone a raise -- the taxpayer always has a fresh generation of slaves waiting for you, so you can
just retire the older workers anytime you feel like it.
Thank Dubya for bringing communism to the U.S. and following Reagan's lead. You see, it is more profitable for global interests to leech off of the U.S. tapayer.
Don't you love "Republicans" and "conservatives" who pretend they are all about "independence" and "self-reliance" but actually do the complete opposite and simply wish to control the market towards "productive aims?"
Look it up Tablizer, I dare you :)
Get an operating system whose kernel works like it's the year 2000 again.
FTFY
just in case your are not sarcastic.. . http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p...
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Nevermind agreements with "competitors" not to hire eachother's workers that every major tech. company was in on (see pando.com and many other fine news sources).
Don't you see Tablizer? The "monopoly" runs much deeper than you know :)
You really think consumers have any control, any power to vote with their wallets?
The economy is already theirs. The schools are already theirs. You take the minds of the children, you wrap your tentacles around the economy, go ahead and "boycott" all you want Tablizer.
Intel is not dumb Tablizer. This is ancient history by this point, following in the footsteps of major global entities since the dawn of time.
It is simply more efficient and more profitable to fix the market ahead of time. The "investors" love it. They win either way. Everyone else goes out of business automatically, guaranteed, if they do not partner up with the taxpayer money stream.
Did you really think Intel was going to sit by and let a market be free Tablizer? That is not how any major corporation works. There is no "compete" at that level there is "control" and "destroy all competition" and it is mostly coincidence and just a quirk of fate that a product happens to ship out the door, any service actually is performed, and so forth.
The goal is to make $$$ Tablizer. Where does a free market factor into that equation Tablier? It doesn't. It is a loss to them, something to be dismantled and destroyed.
Poor naive Tablizer, thinking you can vote with your wallet or that your actions have any effect whatsoever. Don't you know? Consciences were ruled out as obsolete long ago. We are just automatons to be molded and conditioned towards our master's aims. Meet the new eugenics, same as the old eugenics.
You could call it a "master race" that breeds out and filters out anyone opposed. It is anything but Darwinism or survival of the fittest, but hey, Red Hat, whose biggest customer is the U.S. military goes around telling everyone they are a "meritocracy" so you know.
This is pretty much "Division of Plenty (destruction and starvation of anyone opposed)" straight out of 1984 at this point.
What did you think would happen? This was all predicted long ago.The writing has been on the wall for a good hundred years or so.
Did you recall think destroying Hitler would change anything? The fundamental idea, is people are no good and must be "improved" and this cancer knows no age group, no gender, no religion, no philosophy, no race, no country.....it is simply more profitable that way, and best for business.
Really, where have you been the last 100 or so years? The monopoly is already well-established and entrenched.
The market was already taken long ago.....and in the U.S. it was "conservatives" and "Republicans" who spearheaded this treason.
Where are you going to run to to escape the U.S. communist claws? Russia? China? Just more of the same.
You really think your "boycott" was not already well-defended against ahead of time, for your own good?
Can you provide a link to the Devuan download page?
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
Intel already has:
- the U.S. economy (and its newly-defined "global" interest, against U.S. independence) in the palm of its communist
hands
- the souls and minds of the school children, conditioned to perform correctly so they have a "future" and a good "job" waiting for them
What do they care if you boycott them? Go ahead. You will die out, they will live on.
10,000 could boycott... they would be fighting against their best interests (i.e. what they have been conditioned and programmed to think is good for them, regardless of reality)....are you really going to run around and uncondition and deprogram people for your cause?
What did you think science and technology was about Tablizer? You are dealing with "social scientists" here. We have no souls, are just clay to be molded.
You are really up against what people have been taught is in their best interests, and their pocketbooks' ..... their minds are already all gone, deliberately re-purposed and conditioned towards a "peaceful" "global" brave new world. You are going up against much more than any "boycott" could possibly solve.
The "monopoly" is much further along than a mere boycott could change anything.
Boycotts only work in a free market, before the public and private sectors have merged.
You are far too late to "vote with your wallet."
They have unlimited taxpayer money on their side. You will lose no matter what, unless you have equal or more stolen public money on your side funding your cause.
Intel already beat you to that. This is basic communism 101 stuff. Try again.
They crossed the streams already Tablizer :) Did not heed the warning.
The world was already undone, sky already fallen. You have a lot of work to do if you wish to raise it up again,
rebuild a free market again, get back on track to respecting individual souls as worthy beings in their own right and light.
next time i have trouble getting to sleep, i will read your post and say thank you
"The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
No.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Let me repeat that. Conservative Republicans have embraced communism as more profitable.
Where you gonna run to?
The Democrats are no better.
What other country is out of the grasp of the U.S. ? What other country can compete with the likes and size of Intel + the U.S. government ?
Where you going to run to Tablizer? The streams, are already crossed.
Where do you expect to hide? Iraq? Canada? Australia? Germany? Britain?
Five Eyes has you covered. You really think your "boycott" will do anything?
That was already blocked. They boycott you, and you will starve and die. If you are in the U.S. you will naturally go under if you do not "fix" yourself and hop on the treason train.
Outside the U.S. you will just be sanctioned until you comply and see the light.
You going to hide in Russia? Launch a countermovement from your hotel room?
Monopolies are more profitable and more efficient Tablizer. That is what investors around the world want to see, they care not for how that is accomplished, how manty government or nations die in the process, how many taxpayers drown in the flames.
Really, "hand them a monopoly" ? it is far too late for that. They were "handed" or took it already, long ago.
Debian totally jumped the shark with Jessie. A bunch of stuff broke on my machine - I suspect it was systemd.
Well, that's a useful bug report.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Go to any college, around the world.
Not going into STEM or an "in demand" field? Have fun starving. Have a nice day Tablizer.
"Noones owes you a living" you see. Taxpayer money is reserved for "scientists" Tablizer,
not for the public.
Scientists deserve to eat, the public deserves to die if they do not agree.
Where oh where have you been Tablizer? This is like alternate reality, speaking to a ghost from the past.
Do you guys have "too big to fail" yet where you are from? Have you invented the steam engine yet?
Printing ASCII Supermodels on your dot-matrix printer?
Moved to 16 color VGA yet?
What is life like in Tablizer land ?
Mmm Raquel Welch. Yum.
Watch out Tablizer!
In the future, there will be plates, boatloads full of hot grits ...miles and miles of petrified statues.
I advise you to uncross the streams ASAP before it gets out of hand.
Every major superpower has jumped on the communist train. More profitable, more efficient, you see.
What are you boycotting? They took the whole thing already. Monopolies are state-run and granted by the State, don't you see.
In Soviet USA, rights are granted to you by the government, noone has any inherent God-given rights or intrinsic value whatsoever...just a blob of meat, a hunk of neurons, a mass of protoplasm.
Don't you see? Intel is one of the chosen ones, one of the lucky partners. They MUST succeed, or we will all starve because there will not be any jobs for the wonderful citizens around the world. Don't you see?
Intel MUST be propped up and made a monopoly, or the whole U.S. will go under, everyone will magically die.
"People can't eat cotton Milo, they'll get sick!" -- Yossarian
"They must! For the good of the troops!" -- Milo
Find a distro that lets you force what you want and upgrade what you need.
I have a Gentoo install that is 8-10 years old that I've just upgraded piecemeal as the needs arise.
Unlike the ubuntu install I have alongside it (mostly for when I need stuff *NOW* and I happen to not already have it installed on Gentoo), I can be a lot more forceful with avoiding package upgrades, and it in addition has a lot of multi-version work done to allow, for instance, AMD/Nvidia/Mesa graphics drivers all installed at the same time with quick and easy swapping between them (this is a power user feature since not remembering to switch them when you change drivers can lead to headaches if you haven't experience them before.), as well as gcc, binutils, python, and a dozen other packages, where you may have software expecting a default version of a scripting language or dev utility that wouldn't be available on a binary distro, since they tend to follow the 'moving target' development philosophy.
That said: Linux is just a tool in your toolbox, if it stops doing a good job at what you need, migrate your data or ensure filesystem compatibility and move to another OS. With the exception of the Gentoo box I've got through a few distro changes over the years, either do to hard disk upgrades (might as well try a different OS while I'm migrating partitions anyways), or do to annoyances with some feature changes (Redhat/Fedora/SuSE I'm looking at you!)
In the end Ubuntu had the best package support in Launchpad for the random stuff I'd like to install, while gentoo made it easy to work around the whole package mess with ebuilds, layman, and the ability to force things even if gentoo thought it would break things or cause dependency hell. While it might seem counterintuitive, many times it's provided more productivity than ubuntu, especially when I needed bleeding edge or legacy packages which otherwise weren't available.
In regards to the kernel upgrades: Keep backups of old versions when you upgrade, or if you have /proc/config(.gz) available, compile your own from vanilla or patched sources with the default distro config. In the case of gentoo, I still have 2.4 kernels available until udev forced a change (which by the way hosted support for 2.6 kernels before .18 or so. I forget the exact version that devfs was completely eliminated and the migration to udev forced.)
makes me remember when i had that persistent bsod when using a brand new ms certified nic with ms certified drivers on ms windows. i remember exhausting all options for support, from usenet to manufacturer forums, to no avail. but it worked like a charm on linux. yes, on that outdated, primitive and monolithic kernel.
Here but there's not much there yet.
Every commercial software product I've worked on has had at least some level of unit testing, QA and UAT before it's considered ready for prime time
"at least some" just isn't enough, if it were true at all (you can't tell for commercial software because you only have gratuituous statements like yours to back it). and i've seen quite a bunch of commercial projects going through qa and uat while missing severe bugs, even fundamental design flaws going unnoticed.
the antagony open vs commercial is a fallacy. there's only competent vs incompetent teams, and both happen in both scenarios. the only difference is that with commercial closed software you'll never know, but you will always get the same rainbow & unicorns explanation.
i've been using linux on the desktop for decades now. of the zillions of ui's available, i remember doing pretty well with either windowmaker, gome (2), xfce, never liked kde but there were always options. since the gome 3 fiasco i got into tiling window managers and realized i had never actually *needed* anything else.
so ymmv but for me particularly linux has the best desktop uis available today, period. ui is only complex if you want to get dumb peolple to do smart things, and that's just impossible, a chimera. windows and mac OS are a bloody testament to that, ffs.
code in emacs or vim just seems like an exercise in masochism after you get used to a modern IDE.
i have used probably more that two dozens of ides professionally in my life. there were some very cool tools, but they come and go. eclipse, which just rocked for years, is now a bloated monster. just an example, all of them dissapeared one way or the other.
then i returned to emacs, which i had tinkered with in my early years, and realized: this software was written before i was born, it runs on anything from a computer to a bread toaster, it has a solution for anything i as a developer might need, it is still in full shape today with a vibrant community and it will most probably continue running long after i am gone.
now i would feel like an idiot if i didn't stick to emacs. let's come back to this discussion after you have burned through your two dozen shiny ides.
Hey Linux fanboys, I have about a dozen Windows machines I use regularly, haven't had one lock up on me in at least five years.
Good old AAPL and M$FT Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Nothing innovative.
Yeah, your shareholders expect perpetual growth at 5% or more. Until the entire Universe belongs to AAPL or something.
The truth is - Linux is stable and secure as it has ever been*. I have been using it for the last ten years and I saw absolutely no need to go back to Windoze or MacOS. All the antics of you CORPORATE SLEAZEBAGS actively discourage me from doing so.
Very soon the Manic Growth Imperative will mandate I can only use AAPL printers, AAPL mice, AAPL-supplied music on a Macintosh computer, correct ? And if it is older than 7 years, SSL bugs wont be fixed - buy a new computer already, CONSUMER.
* dont expect it to be NSA-safe, though. They have penetrated everything popular, including Linux.
Linux had appstores anbd centralized Update before AAPL coined the term. We have sandboxing mechanism which are apparently still some kind of secret in the rotten Commerce-Wold of M$FT.
Let me repost this:
Good old AAPL and M$FT Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Nothing innovative.
Yeah, your shareholders expect perpetual growth at 5% or more. Until the entire Universe belongs to AAPL or something.
The truth is - Linux is stable and secure as it has ever been*. I have been using it for the last ten years and I saw absolutely no need to go back to Windoze or MacOS. All the antics of you CORPORATE SLEAZEBAGS actively discourage me from doing so.
Very soon the Manic Growth Imperative will mandate I can only use AAPL printers, AAPL mice, AAPL-supplied music on a Macintosh computer, correct ? And if it is older than 7 years, SSL bugs wont be fixed - buy a new computer already, CONSUMER.
* dont expect it to be NSA-safe, though. They have penetrated everything popular, including Linux.
Let me repost this:
Good old AAPL and M$FT Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. Nothing innovative.
Yeah, your shareholders expect perpetual growth at 5% or more. Until the entire Universe belongs to AAPL or something.
The truth is - Linux is stable and secure as it has ever been*. I have been using it for the last ten years and I saw absolutely no need to go back to Windoze or MacOS. All the antics of you CORPORATE SLEAZEBAGS actively discourage me from doing so.
Very soon the Manic Growth Imperative will mandate I can only use AAPL printers, AAPL mice, AAPL-supplied music on a Macintosh computer, correct ? And if it is older than 7 years, SSL bugs wont be fixed - buy a new computer already, CONSUMER.
* dont expect it to be NSA-safe, though. They have penetrated everything popular, including Linux.
...because you dont support the noble American Monopolist Companies like M$FT and AAPL. Your communism shows because your dont want to scrap your three year old computer. Clearly !
...and their Android Devices Support Your Argument, Mr Burson-Marsteller.
Break the news to Nutella already: The War Is Lost. Linux has won !
So you are a M$FT $hill and you have pulled an exotic scenario out of your a$$.
I'll raise those hundred of millions of no longer supported xp users against your PAYMASTERS. Those XP users were perfectly happy with their OS and they were forced into some randomly permutized system ONLY FOR NEW MSFT REVENUE.
Is a bunch of Sleazy Monopolists.
As said by several others, BSODs are an error message from the kernel, which has died (detected that something is seriously wrong, and stopped itself before it overwrites the file system or something like that) - just like a "kernel panic" on Linux or OS X. And yes, they usually come from hardware problems (regardless of OS), sometimes from misconfiguration (again regardless of OS), and rarely from programming errors (regardless of OS).
What you're saying is that Microsoft code is trivial, since all non-trivial code has bugs, unhandled or poorly handled special cases etc.
Microsoft did not create the NIC nor the driver, not their responsibility.
No, OpenBSD fully supports SMP nowadays.
Linux is an inconsistent mess.
I never said the Windows kernel didn't have bugs, it just doesn't have serious, system crashing bugs. The kernel halting itself due to faulty hardware or drivers is intended behaviour. The Linux kernel crash is unintended behaviour AKA a serious bug.
Then why does all open source software suck compared to their commercial counterparts?
No arguments, duly noted.
Now, if you think it'd be sensible to keep embedded systems like that on the bleeding edge, then you should definitely consider the nice bridges I'm selling, a real bargain.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
I write server code for a well-known storage company. We achieve high quality by having closed platforms, relying on a vast army of testers to find the bugs, and missing dates if necessary. Recently, however, we got rid of our test team, vastly reduced hardware, and went to a cargo-cult "agile" model where delivering what you promise in an iteration is more important than quality.
In short, enterprise development is no better, and across the industry it is going to get worse.
.....
http://lwn.net/Articles/430098/
Guess that destroys your pathetic atempt to lie. Seriously, my five year old tells better lies than stamping his foot and saying "NO!"
Proof:
http://koblents.com/Ches/Links/Month-Mar-2013/20-Using-Goto-in-Linux-Kernel-Code/
neither did Linux, but it works there ;)
Until your kernel randomly crashes :)
It "works" a few times. Maybe even 20 times. There is simply no chance it will work over a period of 4 months. X.org goes down more often than a drunken whore at bar.
And if you've not rebooted a Windows machine in 4 months, this means you're not running Windows Update and thus it's nearly certain that it's part of a botnet by now.
No, it is not certain at all. Getting infected is something that happens only when you install untrusted random software from the internet. 99.99999% of Windows users have never been, nor ever will be part of a botnet.
This laptop is used to control a bio reactor in my lab. I use it almost every single day. The software/hardware configuration hasn't changed since I plugged it in. Windows has been rock solid for me.
whoooooosh
obviously, but that doesn't mean everyone should. that's what the gp meant. critical or popular software should be written by professionals.
LOL you do not sound knowledgeable. there are plenty of ways to get infected. ever herd of remote code vulnerabilities? plenty others as well. you sir are lacking serious knowledge in the computer field. you know just enough to hurt you. good luck with your Swiss cheese windows box.
oh yea, screenshots of uptime
or it didn't happen. simply because we don't believe you. you are lying.
ui is only complex if you want to get dumb peolple to do smart things
And this attitude is part of the whole problem - not that having to use professionally-designed operating system UI's is a problem of course, but it's not free. I do very smart things with my computers thank you very much, but wrestling with their configuration to make them actually work does not number amongst them.
Nothing. Either I didn't have my glasses on or I was drunk. On balance I was probably drunk.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
EVERYTHING you do with your computers boils down to a) run programs, b) manage files, c) manage views. there is nothing more that you, as a user, can do with a computer, and there is nothing you can do with a computer that involves anything else but those things. how hard is it to design an ui for that?
it becomes complex the moment you try to invent ways to fool people into doing those things without knowing. why? the fuck should i know. you want to use a computer you better get familiar with those 3 basic functions, you start remembering where you store your own crap, and you don't need much of an ui anymore. anything else is wasting anyone's time, except making rich a few who know how to keep you ignorant.
Microkernels!
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company -- Mark Twain
Linux is fucking garbage.
Hey! That's my line!
EVERYTHING you can do in life boils down to a) taking actions b) saying words c) sleeping. There's nothing more that you, as a human, can do with your life.
Now, I'm not totally sure what point you were trying to make, and I certainly don't intend to discuss it with you any further, but a funny thing happens when you 'boil things down'; You lose what it was you were talking about in the first place. Boiled down to dust like that, nothing has any meaning, and discussion ceases to be possible or profitable for either party.
Just how much experience do you have? In my experience, expensive "enterprise grade" software such as Oracle, VMWare, WebSphere, Windows Server have a massive amount of bugs that causes crashes, unexpected behaviour, incompatibilities between minor point releases...and many go unacknowleged or unpatched by the vendor.
On the whole, the major open source projects quckly admit to and fix bugs and security holes when found.
OpenSSL a funny case of a corporation controlling and using the project for rubber-stamping FIPS approval with no concern for security. A very anti-open source model that now is getting the bleach.
well, you seemed to have a problem with my "attitude", and i'm not totally sure you understood my point in the first place. but since you don't intend to discuss any further it's kind of moot now. just fine.
If you're using Xen - which is a virtualization package. I've never run across Xen in the wild - in fact only at one job interview did they actually use Xen.
They are explicitly excluding the early 09' and earlier MBP 13" with Mavericks, while Yosemite doesn't mention that.
Now I'm curious if its actually supported by Yosemite or not.
Hmmm... that is interesting. I have checked, but I image some mackintosh forums would be the place to know for sure. In either case, we're talking about a less than one year difference, so not huge either way.
I hear you, but being able to make it work, and it being supported are worlds apart. Apple dropped support for it. Its not pleasant being in that position, even if you can "make it work".
Fully agreed--I wish Apple would have included the EFI compatibility shims. I think this--MacPro 1,1--is a perfect example of Apple doing something badly.
But many computers 4 years old were not being supported when mavericks came out. That's all the OP claimed, and all I confirmed.
Perhaps "many" for small values of many. The majority of all Intel mac models support the latest operating system, even post–Mavericks. The only exceptions are:
1) single core processors
2) 32-bit only processors / EFI
3) a very few unsupported graphics cards
Bottom line, with Apple once the apple care runs out, your guess is as good as mine whether anything that comes out thereafter will be supported on your system. It might be. It might be something you can shoehorn on yourself without official support. Or it might not be at all. That's not FUD.
Bottom line, with Apple once the apple care runs out, your guess is as good as mine whether anything that comes out thereafter will be supported on your system. It might be. It might be something you can shoehorn on yourself without official support. Or it might not be at all. That's not FUD.
Barring a few major architectural shifts (68k-PowerPC, PowerPC-Intel, 32-bit–64-bit), Apple tends to support computers for a long time. If you're unlucky enough to be an early with low-end hardware, you might miss out. This is true, and a valid complaint. This should not be over-generalized, however!
I do not believe it's fair to say OS X has a "short shelf life" as stated by the GP (unless meaning that new versions are released frequently).
I'm no saying other vendors or that OSS is necessarily better, but lets not put Apple on a pedestal and say that it IS better. Because its really not.
I would never say Apple is better than OSS in terms of support. The FreeBSD dev lists have been discussing some pty changes recently, and one of the mandates was maintaining jail support for FreeBSD 4 released in 2000. Other kernel options extend binary compatibility back probably to 20 years before that! You're not going to beat that. Apple certainly isn't going to even try.
FWIW, Yosemite runs faster on my 2007 macbook pro than Mavericks did (and I hated Mavericks).
Because no development model is 100% perfect.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
And, yet, critical hardware runs on Linux all the time, like most of the world's supercomputers...
Not the other dude, but before SP1, my windows 7 computer would reliably lock hard upon insertion of any never-before-inserted USB device. It would freeze before playing the dodonk device detection sound. After a reboot, that device would work just fine forever and ever. New USB thumb drive? hard lock. Is that an Xbox controller? hard lock. Switched to a wireless mouse? hard lock.
Cold booting with a new device in would make it sit at the pulsating windows boot logo until you removed the device, at which point it would continue booting. Reinserting the device in this case would still lock it the first time.
Nilux is gucking farbage.
makes as much sense as your post
> How does pointing that out improve Linux in any way?
It establishes a baseline for comparion.
On the other hand, you can simply avoid the offending kernel versions if you want. There's nothing forcing you to use either of these versions of the kernel.
Free software is developed out in the open with total transparency and no secrets. That means it includes the ugly bits that the rest of the industry usually gets to hide.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
As soon as I saw "captcha: illusion"
I knew what we where dealing with.
You are wrong.
One word: Chromebook
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
There's also d) create programs.
The simpler and quicker this is, the easier it is for you to do things that haven't already been pre-packaged yet.
People like to drone on about UIs and "design" but this is really just a fancy way of talking about turning the user into a slave to feed input into a device that really should be automating everything.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I managed to crash WIndows 8 by quickly unplugging and plugging in a USB mouse several times in a row. I'm sorry if anyone feels offended that I pushed the already slipped deadline for raising my expectations for Windows by about two or three more years into the future.
Ezekiel 23:20
My experience has been mostly positive. When I reported a crash in gfortran it was fixed in the next version. The same happened when I reported a code generation error for the closed source competitor Ifort. When I reported a memory leak in the WCS library in Astropy, the bug was fixed within a few hours. When I requested support for a new site in youtube-dl that was added the same evening. But I've had less luck with projects like Firefox, though I don't remember exactly what the issue was there.
> I was most recently using Debian, but my computer got messed up after I did an update and that SystemD thing got installed.
Debian stable still uses initd. The only way you get systemd is by running unstable.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
Doesn't happen here. Get a real mouse, not cheap crap.
The Microsoft HID driver and the Microsoft USB driver crash the system, and you blame the mouse? Does not compute. That's like saying that if I type on the keyboard too fast and the system crashes, it's my fault and not the OS's fault. Complete nonsense.
Ezekiel 23:20
Crap USB peripherals should not take down the system unless the user has also installed crap drivers that break things, in which case there's really not much to be done about it. When I connect a defective or rubbish device, I expect the port to cut power if there's a short, or the "Windows cannot detect this device" balloon or similar Linux console message. If the cord on a mouse is starting to fail, causing it to disconnect randomly, I expect either intermittent functioning, frequent BADONK noises, and maybe a console message about a port being disabled for some seconds due to a device bouncing.
Then again, it's possible that his USB host adapter is at fault, and not the mouse or any driver. This would be my guess if nobody else is able to reproduce the crash when plugging and unplugging devices.
Partially agreed. For overly verbose languages like Java, an IDE is really helpful. You can make some nice macros in vim, but you can't quite match with a good IDE can do. Still though there are times I save, close, and open in vim so I can efficiently do some wacky transform with regexes and macros.
For C though I just use vim all the way. And with a few plugins, it can become a pretty good C IDE.
Unlike an IDE, vim can be made to do just about anything. I've used it before to take an image of font characters in a grid saved as an ASCII .pbm and separate them into C arrays for each character in the font.