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It's Official: NSA Spying Is Hurting the US Tech Economy
An anonymous reader writes China is backing away from U.S. tech brands for state purchases after NSA revelations, according to Reuters. This confirms what many U.S. technology companies have been saying for the past year: the activities by the NSA are harming their businesses in crucial growth markets, including China. From the article: "A new report confirmed key brands, including Cisco, Apple, Intel, and McAfee -- among others -- have been dropped from the Chinese government's list of authorized brands, a Reuters report said Wednesday. The number of approved foreign technology brands fell by a third, based on an analysis of the procurement list. Less than half of those companies with security products remain on the list."
What the hell does McAfee do to earn money, why the hell it is still alive, and what makes it a key company? Seriously, what.
The Chinese government only wants their own backdoors in technology used internally, not ours.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
China has been looking for an excuse to do that for years now. They have their own "tech" with their own spying backdoors inside for decades now, they love control, and with this they will just be able to have even more control over their people.
That's interesting because terrorists have been announcing that one of their goals is to have an impact on the US economy.
Is the article's point saying that the terrorists have won?
The terrorists already won long ago when Dubya and a willing Congress shredded our civil liberties after 9/11.
If it's built there the Chinese government has access to it; even if it isn't brand name but "OEM." In this case, refusing to buy while backdating the tech is a good PR move that will play well with their populace; so there is no downside to this move.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
I figured they would have had done this a long time ago, especially with security-related products.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The terrorists already won long ago when Dubya and a willing Congress shredded our civil liberties after 9/11.
Thats okay, this guy will save us as soon as he gets in office...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAQlsS9diBs
If the indirect effects of limiting freedom leads to suboptimal option availability leads to poor economic performance leads to lower profits... if that convoluted chain somehow ends up resulting in more freedom I'm all for it. But the perfect world I go to sometimes in my dreams doesn't need that. In that world the government fears and obeys its people.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
And remember that this will not change. If you buy U.S brands of electronic devices, you WILL be spied upon. The U.S has long since stopped being a country to trust and rely on, and the U.S and its exported products are now something we should instead be wary of.
Oh, they were shredded before 9/11. 9/11 just made it so they didn't have to hide that fact anymore.
Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
... it's Snowdens fault for telling, not the NSA's fault for spying...
Oh, they were shredded before 9/11. 9/11 just made it so they didn't have to hide that fact anymore.
I'd say that they were frayed prior to 9/11, but that was Christmas.
One could argue that it's Snowden's revelations are hurting the economy. The NSA is supposed to be spying on foreign entities. No constitutional issues there at all.
Move manufacturing out of China... it's simple. They won't buy apple goods, move the 1 MILLION FOXCONN apple workers to a different country. That will get someones attention... quickly
Yes, it's Obamas/Democrats fault for doing anything but reveling in the power the previous administration gave them. That doesn't mean it's not Bush/Republicans fault for taking it to this level in the first place. Own it.
Hey look a frothing-at-the-mouth idiot. I didn't vote for Obama and I've called him out dozens and dozens and dozens on times, but thanks for the amusement. I get no end of laughs when I say anything about Dubya and his defense squad blows their stacks. Then if I call out Obama, even in the very same story at some other point, I get the same thing from the Obama defenders who then bash me and decry "But Bush!!". I don't buy into your partisan bullshit, little troll.
I'm thinking a ~Whoosh~ is in order... ;)
Remember, the alternatives suck also. The recent revelations are that most if not all countries are dirty liars when it comes to spying.
Table-ized A.I.
Nope, I understood the post. They were attempting to try to put words in my mouth as if I support Obama.
Bets on how long until an NSA apologist like Mike Rogers or Peter King issues a "blame the messenger" (Snowden) statement?
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
This is all about what happens when a certain agency or agencies are awarded too much self-determination. What happens is that they end up making decisions which come from narrow-mindedness i.e. inability to see the wider, long-term ramifications of what they are doing, but which, to be fair, are outside the scope of their own purpose.
The missing oversight and reigning in of excess is what, supposedly, the government should be doing, under guidance of the president. But which they haven't done due to to own fear of some major terrorist event which happens to occur on their watch.
Its takes huge courage to stand up to this juggernaut of influences. Who will do that? I don't see anyone in a real position of power putting up their hand. This whole saga will take a long time to play itself out - and the world will be a much more insular place because of it.
Similarly, it may not be obvious, but they're an insulating layer. (Yes, a layer of ice or snow in your roof acts as added insulation, keeping heat in until it melts away or slides off)
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
I like how they pretend that this was only just revealed to them when so many products by those brands are assembled in China, and the backdoors are installed at the factory (according to recent news). They knew this all along, so they're not doing this for security reasons. They're doing it so that US businesses will pressure the NSA to stop, and then if it succeeds, China will have the upper hand in espionage.
In every other conceivable respect, this isn't funny at all. It's just that they think we'll fall for that, and for the most part, we are. But neither these businesses nor the NSA will. The end result will be that China will start buying these products again and it will be spun to us as the result of some kind of breakthrough negotiation. I give it a year, but they might pull a headline grabber and make it happen sooner if it was primarily a bid for lower prices all along.
I hate to take the side of the frothing tard that the GP is, but the Democrats had 50-49 majority control of the Senate when the Patriot Act was voted on. It wasn't 51-49 because of the 1 seat being vacant due to Paul Wellstone dying the day the Patriot Act vote happened in the Senate.
Oops, wrong year since Paul Wellstone died in 2002. So it was 51-49 Democratic Control when the vote happened.
Each product spec sheet should include a list of all countries that will be spying on you as a result of your purchase. Then you can compare various models and decide who would make you most happy if they were to know everything about you. Customer transparency. Customer choice. Even Apple can get behind that!
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
I'm 100% in favor of strict NSA accountability, but it's wrong to blame the NSA as if they aren't at least partially working for the right reasons.
Blame hackers, oligarchs, and wannabe international gangsters first and foremost. The NSA must be held accountable with hardcore oversight, but we need law enforcement and defense.
Also, the tone of this article is weird, it seems to put China as some kind of arbiter of global trade ethics:
Cisco, Apple, Intel, and McAfee -- among others -- have been dropped from the Chinese government's list of authorized brands,
China's government is a totalitarian, freedom depriving monolith. The people of China are victims.
I see the angle, when we put spyware in tech like this there are consequences and it's probably overreach by the NSA, but TFA is criticizing from the wrong angle.
China is not a threat to us. That's the core misunderstanding. How many books, blog posts, articles by Thomas Friedman have there been about the "China Rising" nonsense? We don't owe China like a bank...they ***invested in the US*** by buying our bonds...you don't invest in something you are trying to destroy.
China's financial sovlency depends on the US's ability to honor our bonds. They hitched their wagons to our economy.
Also, China is a pollution wasteland. Human and chemical. Their disasterous one child policy has ruined the population balance of a generation and they have to run their city marathons in smog so thick it's visible at ground level.
I want the US to be a good influence on China. I want our policies to promote them making the right decisions for their people.
Thank you Dave Raggett
Anyone that WOULD stand up to this must have a strong core belief system that won't be swayed by earthly gains (a fundamentalist Christian, for example, or a strong environmentalist/humanitarian). But such a person would never be voted for by the public, because their strong beilefs would instantly disqualify them to voters of the other party. People with strong convictions will absolutely lose a presidential election.
Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
Ah, gotcha! Yeah, folks tend to assume that if you support Obama you don't support Bush and vice versa. In truth, more and more folks are realizing that both have played a pretty big role in eliminating civil liberties.
Technically speaking, 9/11 was just the excuse to go into hyperdrive. They were shredding liberties long before that.
The Joe Nachio/QWEST incident happened in March of 2001. (Where he was told to was told to do something illegal or else. He chose "or else", and just recently got out of prison.)
ECHELON is even older than that and predates Bush by a long way.
It's okay. You misspoke. It happens.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
China steals tech, and they want to develop its industries in all fields. Such as stealing wind turbine tech from American Superconductor, high speed rail tech from Japan, France, and Germany, and car tech from the major car manufacturers.
Well, what do you expect? Like a lot of Americans, they believe we stole the tech from aliens in Area 52.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I don't want to buy from most tech companies anymore either. interdiction, hard drive malware, you name it.
You're the one who dragged "Dubya" into this and tried to lay it at his feet.
I didn't lay anything at his feet beyond what he himself did. Which is that he and the Democratic-controlled Senate were complicit in shredding civil liberties after 9/11. I'm sorry that saying anything bad about Dubya makes you such a flailing tard. Not my fault that you're such a partisan twit.
Gotta love how the "BOOOSH lied, people died!" fools shut the hell up when confronted with "If you like your plan, you can keep it" or "If you like your doctor you can keep him" or "No more illegal wiretapping of American citizens" or "no more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime" or "no more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war" or, wonder of wonders, "NO MORE IGNORING THE LAW WHEN IT IS INCONVENIENT", like, say Obamacare deadlines or immigration laws...
I don't see how any of that applies to me since I don't and never did vote or support Dubya's or Obama's stances on surveillance. But that doesn't change the fact that Dubya is the president who signed the Patriot Act into law that provided the very powers that Obama abuses and extends.
Yes. I don't buy into the partisan bullshit. That's not to say there haven't been things both of them have done that I've supported but I don't play the "RAH RAH RAH! My team!!!" game that you seem to. I'm more than willing to call both parties out for their bullshit.
But for some reason you only offer criticism of "Dubya".
Yeah bad shit like the Clipper chip was being done under Clinton's watch and I never claimed that the only times civil liberties were shredded was during Dubya. But the "THE TERRISTS!!!" bullshit line to hyperdrive surveillance powers and shred liberties was done during Dubya's reign with the passing of the Patriot Act. But he is not the only one responsible for the reprehensible bill as there were plenty of Democrats supporting it.
Nope, I've provided plenty of criticism of Obama over the years on this site. Just because a single post only mentioned Dubya doesn't mean I support Obama.
Let's not be naive and think that China doesn't try just as hard to spy on the US as the US does on China. If Chinese etc firms have come to realize that the extent the NSA is able to spy on them is greater than they previously thought, Snowden is the reason, not the spying itself, of course.
Bad enough that NSA is hurting the US tech economy. What's worse is that they're spending our tax money to do it.
When the Ruskie's stated that the US would collapse from within they weren't kidding. Interesting that they fell victim to the same things, and that most are side stepping the issues created for the airline industries by the rest of all this bullshit. Terrorists's impact the US economy? They couldn't possibly compete with our own stupidity...
Well, who let them do it?
I guess the pain ain't big enough yet, I don't see many people hitting the streets with a "gimme liberty or death" yell.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Your points would be well taken if you were right.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Well, at least...
It's funny to watch the whole spiel from across the pond. I know, maybe it's the distance and the loss of resolution distance entails, but I can't really see that much of a difference between those two parties that you have. It's pretty much the same party to me, maybe with a strawberry flavor here and a blueberry flavor there, but slushy is slushy. The basic ingredients are the same crap, the rest is flavoring. Artificial flavoring.
But yet you see people bicker with an insane drive to ensure that THEIR side of The Party isn't to blame, it's ALL the other side's fault. I look at the whole mess and can only think that you're sitting in a swimming pool with a line splitting it off in the middle, with either side blaming the other one for pissing in the pool but neither even thinking about getting out and draining the water.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The fact that you can't see the faulty code in closed proprietary software doesn't mean that it has no exploits. You clearly haven't worked in proprietary software development teams and seen the incompetent vomit that goes into products.
Vulnerabilities are detectable by boundary testing and fuzzing just as easily in closed software as in open software, but in very stark contrast, in closed software there is no possibility of the community finding the faulty code and reporting it, so typically the vast majority of vulnerabilities never get fixed.
The initial bug rates per KLoC don't vary between closed and open projects. The difference is that in open software, bugs are rapidly found and eliminated, so you've completely misunderstood what you're seeing. The high rates of 0-day reporting show the process of fault elimination working rapidly in open source, whereas in closed software it's far slower and so the faults hang around far longer.
Maybe you should think a little about what it means before posting a nonsense conclusion.
9/11 tore down the last bits of restraint for sure, but you need to look at the War On (arbitrarily chosen based on historical racism) Drugs for the foundations. 4th Amendment? Gone. Due process? Turned into a bad joke by a overflowed court systems coercive plea bargaining and the horrendous situation with assett forfeiture not requiring even being CHARGED, much less convicted**. Cruel and unusual punishment? I'd say years in prison just for having a drug that's not alcohol/tobacco, and decades to life for selling it to other consenting adults, it pretty damn cruel. And it's the original cause for the shift to militarization and war-like mentality for the police, because the only way to enforce this law turns people and communities against the police.
Oh, and guess what the vast majority of PATRIOT Act powers are used for, and what the 'anti-terrorism' grant dollars buy... the largest category is by far drug crimes, with terrorism coming in dead last. Law enforcement was foaming at the mouth over all the post-9/11 authority, but it sure as hell wasn't because it helped them fight terrorism- it let them make even more money, through grants and forfeitures, and superior-pleasing arrests, by fighting more drug crimes.
**And it was not 'ended' or 'reformed' by Holder, worst case of wholesale swallowing of media spin ever; it merely made it a requirement to only forfeit under federal law if you make it a joint investigation, makes it no harder to forfeit under state law, or for the feds on their own, or really at all since all it takes is putting a feds name on the paper to say it's joint)
That's the problem with the political system isn't it, two main parties, both pretty similar, both sponsored by the same corporates. None of them I agree with, and if you vote for someone else, people will say don't do that its a wasted vote. It gives the perception of choice without actually providing you with one.
I say vote the way you want. I also say you should be able to vote no confidence in any of them. I don't know what you do if no confidence was significant, probably wouldn't make a difference but at least it would be embarrassing. At the moment if you don't vote they count it as you don't care, this way they can count it as you don't think any of them can run the country, and maybe take there egos down a peg.
... to affect change than the American citizen, because, well, money.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
A vote for a third party is effectively a "no confidence" vote. It certainly would be embarrassing if third parties summed up to a significant percentage of a vote.
The original Patriot Act vote was 98-1 (a Democrat being the only "no" vote)
When the Patriot Act was renewed in 2006, there were 10 "no" votes. Here are the senators who voted "no"
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Byrd (D-WV)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Jeffords (I-VT)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Murray (D-WA)
Wyden (D-OR)
No Republican voted against the Patriot Act, either time it was before the Senate.
This AF guy sitting here on this NIPRnet computer is staring at a big ol McAfee icon right now. Your base must be behind. The systems were upgraded to McAfee about this time last year to have a combined solution for several issues. It does AV. It lets the NOC know when you plug in one of those USB devices that were prohibited last year and also logs what CDs you put in the drive. And now it is leveraged to scan email to ensure that they have been signed, encrypted, and do not contain PII.
Either our 'intelligence' agencies are stupid, or they aren't working for us.
Every new item of information we have delivered to us by paths other than MSM show our systems to be totally corrupt. Smart bet says they are collecting all that info for themselves, to enhance their control. NSA's understanding of 'soft power' is blackmail.
I don't really trust my own government. What on Earth should I trust yours? Growing up, I generally thought of the USA as the good guys. Nowadays, not so much. I'm not sure there are any good guys.
linquendum tondere
"China steals tech, and they want to develop its industries in all fields. Such as stealing wind turbine tech from American Superconductor, high speed rail tech from Japan, France, and Germany, and car tech from the major car manufacturers."
It's only natural for a developing country to steal tech from more advanced countries. The US use to do it hundreds of years ago when they were still developing compared to Europe. It was only after they "caught up" and started trying to push ahead that they gave a fuck about patents/copyrights/trademarks/etc.
Well the 2016 election is on, I will vote 3rd party.
Get up!
"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
Since the US currently isn't ruled by Sunni clerics according to Sharia law, and you haven't been put in orange coveralls, placed in a cage, and then burned alive, I'm pretty sure the terrorists haven't won.
Pretty low bar you set there, eh? Outspoken civil liberty advocates being detained and intimidated at border crossings is a scary sign of the way things are headed.
That's not a "low bar," that is pointing out rubbish, the disparity between what is claimed and reality. You may need a taste of that yourself.
So you say there was a problem with one visitor of the 60,000,000 people that visit the US each year? That is "scary" as a "way things are headed" AKA a "trend." Do you think it will hit 2 in 60,000,000 soon?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Ever notice the name of the "Patriot Act" and what it said to the US people post 9/11 by challenging it without even having a chance to read it as it was rushed through with a sense of artificial panic? Pretty fucking blatant - vote against it and you are not a patriot. The name and tactics were a low, underhanded, and most definitely "unpatriotic" act of defecting on the flag and wrapping it up, then demanding respect for the flag despite what it contained. Yes it would be nice if somebody was strong enough to call it the way it was, but the blame really lies with the bully that defecated on the flag more than the weaklings that let him get away with it.
When I was growing up Greek migrants in my area effectively demonstrated the definition of working hard. I'll bet it was the same where you live as well.
Sometimes posts here just reveal far too much information about the poster and nothing at all about the topic at hand.
China is not overthrowing democratically elected governments, it is not drone murdering abroad or creating wars. Since I'm not in China, I take Chinese espionage over American any day.
I agree with you. The US Political system is in shambles right now because everyone believes that it should be a two party system. They are two sides of the same coin.
How do you think all of that new shale oil is moving around? No pipelines yet from those areas, so among many other things that it's a matter of using many trains. A couple of recent accidents with trainloads of oil should have highlighted that.
Say what you want (even though their aims were never to conquer the US), but their tiny little attack scared the US into giving up freedom and entering a war (or two) which caused nothing but fertile ground for more terrorists to attack the US. I'm sure if the terrorists were able to fly a plane into a building which would directly achieve that, and did so, they would have been very happy with the outcome. So yeah - while the terrorists haven't won, they certainly have some excellent allies in the US government.
The American government's response to terror was a pathetic Thatcheresque knee-jerk, and guaranteed more terrorism would follow, all for the measly price of civil liberties. Bargain!
Closer than the US by Abbott - when Putin turned up at the G20 the expected confrontation over the airliner didn't happen - Abbott instead quietly had a photo opportunity with Putin and Koalas then called the President of the USA a liar over fairly tame comments about the barrier reef.
However, odd diversions into irrevent sidetracks about terrorists aside, the NSA do not respect the constitution so legality does by definition not apply to the situation. They want to punish Snowden and don't care if it's done with reference to the courts or not - "justice" Chinese style.
" You clearly haven't worked in proprietary software development teams and seen the incompetent vomit that goes into products."
Bullshit, I do controller programming all day for massive hydroponic farms - I know what bullshit people can write. Part of my job is fixing said bullshit.
You're not apparently reading my words the proper way.
"in closed software there is no possibility of the community finding the faulty code and reporting it,"
Yea, that sure worked out well for Superfish, which is closed-csource. Less than 12 hours after it was broken there was a tool out to track and log anyone infected with Superfish released on GitHub.
"Maybe you should think a little about what it means before posting a nonsense conclusion."
Maybe you should do a bit more critical thinking, as very recent events have proven you utterly wrong.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
That may be the case, but how does that relate to spying level or depth? I don't see a direct connection.
By the way, China has shown aggression to neighbors over territory disputes over small islands and Taiwan.
Table-ized A.I.
how does that relate to spying level or depth
I can't imagine more depth than infecting the HDD's firmware, stealing the SIM cards encryption keys of common citizens, tracking my phone's movements, every conversation I have over the Internet (skype, email, messaging, etc), making fake slashdot copies to infect people, designating me "enemy of the state" for reading and supporting wikileaks.
There is no indication that the Chinese are doing any of those things to foreigners (they do read Chinese communications).
It is true that China has shown aggression to neighbors, but it is also true that they believe Taiwan IS China. I strongly disagree, since Taiwan has been independent for several decades. On the other hand, having billions in weapons pointing at China doesn't help much. It is hard to believe they should be nice and understanding neighbors to people who have military pacts with the US.
The NSA revelations and subsequent photo ops of the "secret installation" of "extra features" in Cisco kit was one of the big reasons my employer decided to spend a 6 figure sum on someone else.
The ironic thing is that the Cisco reps weren't trying to compete on price (more than 3 times as expensive), but pushing FUD about other kit having govt spyware on it - whilst I had the relevant Snowden files open on the desk in front of me.
Why attack the aside anyway? Is the actual point too hard to deal with?