Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Should I Let My Kids Become American Citizens?
An anonymous reader writes "Can you help me decide whether to allow my small daughter and son to become American citizens? I am American and my partner is Swedish. We have both lived in Belgium for many years and have no plans to leave. I became a Belgian citizen some years ago and kept my American citizenship. My partner has both her original Swedish and now Belgian citizenship. We are not married. Instead we have a registered partnership, which is common in northern Europe, confers most of the benefits of marriage, and raises no eyebrows. However, the American government does not recognize such partnerships, so in their eyes I am still single. Generally, children of American citizens abroad automatically become American citizens themselves at birth. But our kids fall under an exception. Male American citizens who live abroad and have children out of wedlock with a non-citizen mother do not automatically transmit citizenship to their children unless they sign an "affidavit of support" promising to support their children until the age of 18. If you don't sign before the child reaches 18, the child is not considered an American citizen. This has been upheld by two Supreme Court rulings (Nguyen v. INS and Flores-Villar v. United States). For legal beagles, the relevant statutes are 8 U.S.C. 1401 and 1409. (Read on below for the rest.)
The kids have Swedish and Belgian citizenship. We could go down to the American consulate and get American citizenship for them any time, but I keep putting off the decision and I am not sure I want to do it at all. Sentimentally I would like the kids to have American citizenship, but there is really only one practical pro to it: American citizenship would allow them to live, work, or study in America more easily, if they choose, when they get older. The cons:
- They would be immediately enmeshed in the U.S. tax bureaucracy, which would require them to file U.S. tax returns for life even if they never set foot in the U.S. This, as I know from experience, is a huge bother, even when you don't owe anything.
- Sometimes they would owe U.S. tax, though, for example for capital gains, unearned income, and in some countries self-employment income.
- My son would have to register for the draft.
- The decision, once made, is difficult to back out of: renouncing one's U.S. citizenship costs $2300 and a lot of paperwork.
- They can easily travel to the US for family visits as Belgian/Swedish citizens.
- There are lots of good universities in Europe. And if they really wanted to study in the U.S., it's not too hard to do as a European.
What do you think I should do? The clock is ticking, and I find it hard to choose between the evil of not being able to be American if they choose, and the evil of unjust, lifelong pursuit by the IRS. Here are two good relevant links.
Yes. They don't lose anything by becoming citizens (there are tax issues but they are pretty minor), and being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services. They can then decide which passport to travel on depending on what is most convenient. And they can then donate to American political causes if they want. On the whole the benefits outweigh the costs, and if it really does become an issue they can renounce citizenship later. However, you and they should talk to a lawyer about this first to make sure there aren't any special issues that might come up in your particular case. When in doubt, always go with real legal help not random people on the internet.
Why is 'the clock ticking'? You didn't mention their ages, but say that you have to make the choice before they are 18. Can't they make their own choice, long before their 18th birthdays?
The USA is going down the shitter fast. Don't burden and indoctrinate your children with American citizenship.
When they are adults, they can choose what they want to do.
You clearly already know the answer.
You have a long list of cons and the only "pro" is that you feel sentimental about it. With Northern European citizenship they'll never really have trouble going to the US if that tickles their fancy and they won't have to deal with filing tax returns or the draft.
No. Never.
I'm an Australian who has lived in a few countries and currently live in the US on a visa. I'd like to get my greencard, BUT NEVER CITIZENSHIP. The tax headache alone is NOT WORTH IT.
If the IRS ever changes its laws on citizens, then maybe, but that is not currently the case.
You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
It sounds like you've already made up your mind. I suspect that you can delay the decision until a year or so before the kids turn 18. Your son and daughter will no doubt have a few good ideas about what they'd like to do at that point and I'd seriously recommend allowing them to participate in the decision as near-adults.
Why is this here? How is any of this related to what Slashdot is supposed to be about? I'm usually pretty lax about what's posted on Slashdot, but this question should be posted on a forum somewhere else, not on a news site for "nerds".
It isn't doing you any good, and your kids will never have it.
Good for them.
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
They also receive the gift of being obligated to pay US taxes. They will love you for that.
No brainer. Earmark $2,300 for them now, set it aside, and when they're legal age they can decide if they want to file the paperwork to renounce their citizenship. Then when they're older they have a choice that most people never get a chance to have, at least not so easily.
>there are tax issues but they are pretty minor
You're kidding. Have you actually experienced them? The tax issues are mindboggling in their complexity because the US law is written for US institutions and concepts. Trying to work out how arrangements in any of 160 other countries with their own laws and institutions translate into American concepts is a minefield. Something that is simple in your country of residence becomes impossible in another. Accountants who are familar with both local and US tax law don't come cheap so many people spend thousands of dollars a year trying to get it right; all to pay zero tax because there is rarely any tax to be paid. But if you get it wrong the penalties are punitive, all because the US views citizens who have the temerity to live overseas as unpatriotic tax dodgers.
And the benefits? What exactly would those US consulate services be that are so valuable? I can't think of any.
I'd say: yes, do it, with your children's consent. No consent? Don't do it. Tell them at 16, they have to make a choice, and tell them what it means to them. Remember that twenty years in the future, many parts of the world will mature. Which one matures for them means having choices.
---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
I would disagree that the tax issues are pretty minor. The U.S. says it can tax all your income forever. Because of CISPA it is becoming extremely difficult for U.S. citizens to have bank accounts outside of the U.S. and the value of a U.S. passport over an EU passport is dubious. The largest reason I can see for obtaining U.S. citizenship would be if you were planning on moving with them back to the U.S. or if they were likely to seek employment in the U.S. in the future.
The first year or two in any given country is generally pretty difficult to figure out how US taxes work with them. Once that's done it doesn't become an issue after that. As for US consular services, one gets all the advantages one gets from having another country as backup when something is going wrong. Unrest in a country you are staying in and people need to be evacuated? The US has done that many times for its citizens in the past. It has helped other countries evacuate their citizens as well, but they generally have given priority to US citizens. Have legal trouble in another country? Having access to people from the embassy of the country with the big military helps. US citizens are in many places treated better as a result.
being a US citizen has a lot of advantages, like the support of US consulate services
And the disadvantages if they travel to hostile places, like being taken hostage and shot, just because you're American.
I'm not a citizen and I was forced to register and required to prove it at my next green card interview.
Yes if you are a male of 18 years of age you are required by law to register for Selective Service. Isn't it just strange, the way the feminist groups aren't fighting for equality and screaming about the total lack of gender-blind inclusiveness on this issue?
Clearly, "equality" means "I get the same privileges you get, but I definitely don't want the same responsibilities you potentially could be saddled with".
For all the hate the US gets on Slashdot, it's still the country of record. It's hitting the big time. Top finance jobs are centered in the US. Top technology jobs are centered in the US. The movie and TV industries are largest in the US. 9 of the world's 10 best universities are in the US. Sure, such jobs are available in Nigeria, but the best most and the most talented tend to work in the US, and you're limiting your kid's future by not allowing it.
I know so, so, so many Chinese people (both PRC and Taiwan, Malaysia, etc.) killing themselves to get their kids in the US because it has the best school and the top jobs. Not to mention, my wife's parents, several of my best friend's parents, etc. NOT doing it, when it would be easy to fill out paperwork, just seems like irresponsible parenting.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I became a US citizen in my teens and left when I was in my 20s. FACTA has made banking next to impossible. I'm legitimately thinking of ditching it at this point but I can't afford the fees (yes it costs money to renounce your citizenship). FACTA only screws over the low wage earning US citizens abroad, it does nothing but turn us into criminals while those it was meant to catch (rich tax evaders) are able to pay accountants and lawyers to navigate the laws both at home and abroad.
I've never filed taxes in the US, upon discovering that I had to submit a return I emailed the IRS and explained my situation. Their response was to threaten me with hundreds of thousands in fines for not complying AND not answering my question (which was "What exchange rate do I use when filing? Yearly average? Year end?'). Honestly, fuck the United States government.
A massive expense? When probably 99% of the people filing owe no taxes? If you have a regular salaried job, it takes approximately 30 minutes, as long as you're not a drooling moron, to fill in a 1040, a 2555, and an 1116 (Income statement, declaration of foreign income, and foreign income tax credit).
If you're in "the 99%" - and probability says you are - then you pay zero taxes to the American government each year, you simply have to spend 30-60 minutes filling out a form and mailing it. If you own a 40% stake in Facebook, yeah, you get hit with taxes. If you're working for even relatively good wages, chances are you won't owe a thing unless the foreign country you're in has REMARKABLY low tax rates - again, probability says that in Europe, you're not.
So yes, for the vast majority of people, the tax issues are very minor - a yearly hassle that doesn't even begin until after the kid gets a job paying more than ~9500 a year... and in return, you get all the benefits of an American citizenship. Which for all the poo-pooing being done here, let's be honest: nobody's lining up to illegally cross the border into Somalia because of all the great benefits they'll get there.
If your children are small and the deadline to sign the affidavit of support isn't until they're 18, as you said, wouldn't it make the most sense to simply put off the decision until:
A) They're nearing the age of 18, can weigh the pros and cons themselves, and can indicate their desire to you
B) There's an unanticipated but immediate use for it (e.g. war or natural disaster strikes Europe)
C) The situation changes such that the decision becomes clearer one way or the other (e.g. tax burden lessens, becomes harder for foreigners to work in America, etc.)
More or less, I don't see the urgency in making this decision now, rather than in a decade, and this sounds like the sort of decision that could very easily make itself for you if you simply give it enough time.
Remember that twenty years in the future, many parts of the world will mature.
We can only hope that that includes the US. :-)
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
no, I agree with jeremiah.
we have failed. we are a failure. some may not see it, but we will implode sooner or later and then, all hell will break loose.
there is NO plan for sustainability, here. we keep spending on wars and hostility and yet we let 'home repairs' go undone. for decades, now, we have done this.
we are the country of 'dumbing down'; we have the worst healthcare system in the world; we let people go homeless if they lose their jobs and can't find a new one quickly enough; we have crime rates that are astronomical; we have half of the country thinking the world is a few thousand years old and that half also denies science whenver possible.
we are no shining example of what a good country is, anymore. our politics are a mess, our spies are ruining WORLD WIDE security for everyone and we are the main cause of this kind of escalation.
don't even get me started on the work environment here. very little maternity leave, no paternity leave, a recent push for no sick time or vacation time (they lump it all together) and we also have the shortest amount of vacation time compared to all the modern countries. our corporations work the workers to death and then dispose of them, IF you can even GET a job in the US (h1b, yes! born here, sorry.)
there are many good things about the US, don't get me wrong. but if you are not already 'stuck' here, I would certainly NOT entertain coming here, moving here, doing business here and certainly not becoming a citizen here!
(of course, I expect to be added to some watchlist given my comments here. and that's yet another reason to avoid the US. you can't trust the US anymore. we don't even follow our own laws uniformly. if you are rich, you have all you want; if you are not rich, then a 2nd set of laws will apply to you).
don't. just don't. we used to be great. maybe we will again in the future, but right now, its a disaster here.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
If you want socialism, maybe you should move to sweden. Have fun with that 75% tax.
Personally, I don't see that any of these things as compelling practical advantages, given that the kids already have dual Swedish and Belgian (and therefore EU) citizenship. If they were Moldovan and South Sudanese, that'd be a different story. Or if they were citizens of a country from which getting a visa to enter the US might be difficult in the future.
But most importantly I think this is one of those decisions that you just don't make primarily on a cost-benefit basis. It's not like deciding to join Costco or subscribe to Hulu. Citizenship entails responsibilities. If you want your kids to shoulder those responsibilities and feel allegiance to the US then it makes sense to get them that citizenship come hell or high water. But given that they already have two perfectly good citizenships from two advanced western democracies with generally positive international relations worldwide, I don't see much practical advantage in adding a third.
Still, I wouldn't presume to give advice, other than this. The poster needs to examine, very carefully, that feeling he has that maybe his kids should be Americans. The way he expresses it, "sentimental reasons", makes those feelings seem pretty trivial, in which case it hardly matters if they don't become Americans. After all, most other Belgians seem to get along perfectly well without being Americans too. But if this is at all something he suspects he might seriously regret not doing, or if it nags him in ways he can't quite put his finger on, he needs to get to the bottom of that in a way random people on the Internet can't help him with.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I'd estimate the paperwork (including searching to ensure you are not ignoring legal obligations as a US citizen, occasional accountant/lawyer visits, etc.) to be on order of 20 hours a year. Less many years, some years you could spend 100 hours trying to make certain you are not breaking US law when you buy a house, are self-employed, etc.
Over 80 years, that's 1,600 hours. If you value your leisure time at $50/hours, than consider it to be about $80K worth of hassle to be a U.S. citizen. Add in $20K in lawyer/accountant fees over the years, and you could be looking at a total lifetime cost of about $100K.
Is it worth it? Well, if you're child chooses to work there, then it's easily worth it. But otherwise, probably not.
So, what you really want to decide (and only you can do so), is "Is the life-time option of working in the US worth $100K?"
Bullshit. I probably have the most complicated tax situation (being a citizen of one country, living in another, filing taxes in a third one and having significant US income without SSN) and US taxes were not a problem at all apart from understanding the tax forms. And regular expats won't even have to pay anything unless you earn more than about $200k and live in a tax-haven country like Singapore.
If it were actually this bad, people would be mass emigrating to other countries. This is what happens in other countries that are actual cesspools instead of imaginary cesspools. Where do they come? America, yup. If they can get it. Funny enough, it's a pain in the ass to do it legally.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Well, if they are almost 18, why don't you just let them decide for themselves? Explain the pros and cons, they should be old enough to understand. If you think they lack the maturity to make the decision, then they'll probably be better off without the complexity of filing American tax reports for the rest of their lives. Basically, don't do it unless they understand the consequences and want you to.
The US is doing quite well compared to Europe; Europe is imploding.
It really isn't.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Exactly; when what you get back is so much more valuable, it is worth it. Still, as an American, it is easy to get cynical about taxes when they've been redirected to burden the poor and working classes the most, let the rich off scott free, buy very little medical care, roads that are usually in disrepair, bridges that are falling into rivers in rush hour traffic, law enforcement that's losing its war with its own conscience, a bloated and demonstrably less-than-effective military, etc etc etc. We've grown accustomed to getting much less than we pay for.
By the time the children are grown Europe will be Muslim (because they're out-breeding your native populations). In the same time span the US will be a Spanish-speaking third world country or a tightly controlled police state. It's a losing proposition either way.
Best bet is to go find a small isolated island with no inhabitants and call it your home. It's a shame we don't have any space colonies to escape to yet.
The USA charges its citizens for evacuation, unlike all other countries in the world who also evacuate their citizens from trouble zones ..... for free.
These costs have bankrupted people in the past, leaving them wishing they had not been "rescued".
US citizens are becoming systematically toxic and are treated like shit as a result, especially by the financial system. FATCA is a completely insane law and has resulted in banks around the world terminating accounts and refusing to make loans just because someone is a US citizen or has a green card. And unfortunately what many don't realise is you cannot get out of US citizenship just by paying a few thousand dollars as the summary suggests. There is a crippling exit tax that forces you to pay tax on the assumption you just sold all your assets. It's a form of capital control, except one you cannot escape from due to the long arm of the US government. Even better, USA can decide that the citizenship revocation is invalid if they think it was done for tax reasons. They can just keep forcing you to pay taxes forever, if they want to. It's basically modern slavery.
My advice to the story submitter - don't do it!!. US citizenship is already dramatically worse than citizenships in other civilised countries and it's getting worse every year. In fact it's akin to a form of slavery. US citizens abroad have no functioning representation in Congress and they are routinely exploited as a result, citizenship based taxation being only one example.
Swedish and Belgian citizenship together is a perfect combination! Why would you want anything more?