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Obama Says Climate Change Is Harming Americans' Health

HughPickens.com writes: The Washington Post reports on new comments from President Obama, who says global warming isn't just affecting the weather — it's harming Americans' health. He has announced steps government and businesses will take to better understand and deal with the problem. Obama said hazards of the changing climate include wildfires sending more pollution into the air, allergy seasons growing longer, and rising cases of insect-borne diseases. "We've got to do better in protecting our vulnerable families," said Obama. "You can't cordon yourself off from air."

Speaking at Howard University Medical School, Obama announced commitments from Google, Microsoft and others to help the nation's health system prepare for a warmer, more erratic climate. Google has promised to donate 10 million hours of advanced computing time on new tools, including risk maps and early warnings for things like wildfires and oil flares using the Google Earth Engine platform, the White House said. Google's camera cars that gather photos for its "Street View" function will start measuring methane emissions and natural gas leaks in some cities this year. Microsoft's research arm will develop a prototype for drones that can collect large quantities of mosquitoes, then digitally analyze their genes and pathogens. The goal is to create a system that could provide early warnings about infectious diseases that could break out if climate change worsens.

304 comments

  1. wildfires? by ralphsiegler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe someone should tell the prez that the extent of wildfires is much less than pre-20th century levels

    1. Re:wildfires? by itzly · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That doesn't mean it's not a reason for concern.

    2. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 5, Interesting

      LA resident here. We're in a middle of a drought that's worse than the great depression dust bowl. My house is basically surrounded by kindling right now. the risk from wildfires is extraordinarily high. there were really bad fires last summer and there was a steady drizzle of ash onto the entire city. I would say that climate change is threatening my health.

    3. Re: wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Check out Siberia.

    4. Re:wildfires? by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1, Troll

      I would say improper diet and lack of excessive is more threatening than wildfires caused by climate change.

      Of note is that climate change doesn't cause wildfires, lightening does or more commonly people do.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    5. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You assume AGW is the cause for the current drought.

      Previous to the California "dry spell", climatologists were saying that AGW would make Calif WETTER, not dryer.

      Your claim is based on erroneous assumption.

      GIGO.

    6. Re:wildfires? by sycodon · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because Climate Change stopped the controlled burns and built houses in wildfire prone areas.

      And worse than the Dust Bowl? I'm afraid not.

      Most of California's problems are caused by California.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    7. Re:wildfires? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1, Informative

      LA resident here. We're in a middle of a drought that's worse than the great depression dust bowl. My house is basically surrounded by kindling right now. the risk from wildfires is extraordinarily high. there were really bad fires last summer and there was a steady drizzle of ash onto the entire city. I would say that climate change is threatening my health.

      You would?

      So, I gather you have some evidence that the current drought is caused by "climate change"?

      Last I checked, this drought is a "500-year drought" (which means that one this severe can be expected every 500 years, on average). Since we haven't got records going back to 1500 in CA, I'm not sure that we can call this drought a result of AGW....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You built a city in the frigging desert and now you cry because there isn't enough water to maintain all your imported foliage and millions of people even after you've drained every natural watershed in hundreds of miles over the past 100+ years?
       
      Don't talk to me about environmentalism until you clean up your own back yard!

    9. Re:wildfires? by BCtoo · · Score: 1

      What do you think happened before there were fire departments?

      There were a lot more wild fires and they burned far longer.

    10. Re:wildfires? by Nyder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      LA resident here. We're in a middle of a drought that's worse than the great depression dust bowl. My house is basically surrounded by kindling right now. the risk from wildfires is extraordinarily high. there were really bad fires last summer and there was a steady drizzle of ash onto the entire city. I would say that climate change is threatening my health.

      No, your stupid choice to live in a Hot area that has a history of water problems.

      I live in Seattle, I am not surrounded by kindling, it's nice and green around here. I choose to live in a place that doesn't have a rich problem And by rich problem, I mean have a small portion of the population wasting most the water, either on lawns, pools or stupid products like Almonds that use a large amount of water and give a better profit then real food.

      See I choose not to be a dumb fuck and live in a state that is going to fall in the ocean if it doesn't burn to death before then. And because I choose better then you, I am going to make fun of you for your stupid fucking decision. Granted we did a shortage of water this year, it's not going to affect me or my neighbors at all. Why? Because we understand that there are times when having a green lawn is stupid, mainly during water shortages.

      But whatever, you choose to live in LA and now you are paying the price. And by paying the price, I mean the rich are fucking you in your ass so they can use your tears to keep their lawns green.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    11. Re:wildfires? by itzly · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, this drought is a "500-year drought"

      How does one check such a thing ?

    12. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe someone should tell the prez that the extent of wildfires is much less than pre-20th century levels

      Because most forrest were cut down...

    13. Re:wildfires? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      the risk from wildfires is extraordinarily high.

      Drought lowers the severity of wildfires. Plenty of winter rain, means plenty of tall vegetation, which then dries out in the summer, and burns ferociously in the fall. The worst California wildfires have followed wet winters. The drought makes wildfires a year round concern, but the fires are less severe, and easier to control.

    14. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, we do have records going back to 1500 and even earlier. They're called "tree rings". The North American Drought Atlas collected tree ring data from across the US to understand tree growth patterns over the last 200 years. See, when there's a big drought, trees don't grow much and their rings are close together. When it's a good year the tree grows a lot and rings are farther apart.

      So yes, there's a historical record, and yes, this drought is really really bad. Also, this drought isn't over yet so we don't know how bad it will continue to be. The drought to-date is a 500 year drought, but by the time it ends, it could be a 2000 year drought!

      Obama's point is that the effects of climate change are being felt right now and are directly impacting human health. So while a warmer period (a couple degrees) doesn't necessarily hurt health wildfires caused by drought caused by climate change does.

      This point is extraordinarily relevant because it ties into the current EPA coal court case going on. The case states that EPA exceeded its mandate. EPA is supposed to regulate pollutants that harm people's health. The coal people argue that even if climate change is real and may have an impact in hundreds of years, CO2 emissions are not harming people's health today and so fall out of the EPA mandate. Obama is saying otherwise.

      -Andrew

    15. Re:wildfires? by Rinikusu · · Score: 2

      Our chicks > your chicks.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    16. Re:wildfires? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      See I choose not to be a dumb fuck and live in a state that is going to fall in the ocean if it doesn't burn to death before then.

      It's the wrong kind of fault for that.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re:wildfires? by LionKimbro · · Score: 1

      The Union of Concerned Scientists says that increasing wildfires comes from climate change.

      I'm going to go with the science, rather than Random Internet Guy.

    18. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last I checked, this drought is a "500-year drought"

      How does one check such a thing ?

      You read Tony Wazzup's blog.

    19. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Rodeo Clown says a lot of things and most don't mean shit.

    20. Re:wildfires? by bmajik · · Score: 2

      So I agree entirely with your sentiment, except I chuckled when you wrote that you live in Seattle.

      What's funny about that is Seattle is also full of rich dumb people that make dumb decisions.

      If you've done the Seattle underground history tour, you know that Seattle basically sunk into the sound long ago. The whole city history is replete with stories of stupid people that fought nature and lost.

      Recently, the highway 99 project comes to mind :)

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    21. Re:wildfires? by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Informative

      Tree rings, for starters. There are species of trees that have lived that long, at least one of which happens to be in California (look up the Bristlecone Pine - there are two verified trees that have lived well beyond 5,000 years and counting). It wouldn't be too much to take a core sample and do some checking. Relatively thin rings mean drought years, fat ones mean wet years.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    22. Re:wildfires? by ralphsiegler · · Score: 2

      Logic fails you and the person who made your link, many smaller wildfire of the present are nothing like the monstrous natural ones of the past.

    23. Re:wildfires? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      I grew up in Southern CA.

      It has three seasons...Winter, Rain and Mudslide season and Fire season.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    24. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sequoia can live a couple thousand years. I'm sure there are other plant records like this to show cyclic weather patterns.
       
      And just as a disclaimer, I'm not the OP and I'm not claiming that there is a 500 year drought cycle. I'm just presenting a possible way to find pre-recorded weather patterns.

    25. Re:wildfires? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It means it's a made-up problem. "Climate change is causing wildfires" is a red-herring: a lot of wildlife depends on fires to survive. Some tree seeds don't grow if they're not set fire to first; and the growth and spread of various species of underbrush rely on underbrush clearing every few years, historically done by wildfires.

      We have fewer wildfires now due to suppression efforts, which we've scaled back massively because we realized suppressing wildfires is a really fucking bad idea. Global Wargarbling isn't causing wildfires, isn't increasing the amount of wildfire pollution in the air, and isn't threatening people by mechanisms spawned from wildfires.

      This kind of spouting makes the President sound dangerously uneducated. We're lead to question more things: what is this lengthening of the allergy season, and how is it different from living in the South? Are we only concerned about half of the United States?

    26. Re:wildfires? by ralphsiegler · · Score: 1, Troll

      Calling a site run by a bunch of agenda driven bullshitists "science" is rather humorous, by the way

    27. Re:wildfires? by itzly · · Score: 1

      I don't dispute that there are regular droughts, but I'm wondering how that helps to find the cause of this particular one. I don't believe there's a 500-year clock mechanism somewhere that is responsible for triggering them.

    28. Re:wildfires? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Hey I like almonds.

    29. Re:wildfires? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That doesn't mean it's not a reason for concern.

      It may be a concern, or it may not, but the burden of evidence is on those who advocate spending public money. We have had a lot of alarmism about climate change, and while it has generated short term concern, in the long run it has eroded public support as the alarmist predictions fail to materialize. Advocates of climate change action should stop the shrill rhetoric, and focus on rebuilding their credibility. AGW is a serious problem, in my opinion, but we are failing to address it because the issue has been hijacked by people with other agendas.

    30. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      -1

      What part of "record drought conditions" did you miss? While it must be said that drought conditions in any part of North America are cyclical, the current trend is alarming in it's scope and pace. Ample evidence, in other words, of a very real "climate change". What used to work no longer does, but one can hardly blame one's choice of geography for that. So, those who have chosen to live there need to figure out how to survive with much less (and more expensive) water, or they move.

    31. Re:wildfires? by Bartles · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He's no uneducated, he's just anti-science.

    32. Re:wildfires? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Oh no, the third rule of AGW alarmism is that all changes due to AGW are very very bad. And doooon't you for geet eeet.

    33. Re:wildfires? by lactose99 · · Score: 1, Informative

      See I choose not to be a dumb fuck and live in a state that is going to fall in the ocean if it doesn't burn to death before then. And because I choose better then you, I am going to make fun of you for your stupid fucking decision.

      And the winner of the most insufferable little twat award goes to...

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    34. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who rated this a 4 insightful when it's more flamebait.
      Foul language, calling someone dumb should rate this comment as zero even though it makes a good point about having green lawns in a desert.
      Stay on point, here is someone living where you can actually see results. Next Australia where GW/CC is really starting to hit tinder stage!
      Washington state will gets it's share of problems in time, just wait for it.

    35. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't talk to me about environmentalism until you clean up your own back yard!

      Re-read the comment you replied to. Did he talk to you about environmentalism, or did you merely imagine it like some paranoid wacko? I saw a post where someone said the drought was a personal threat. He's probably right.

      It's sort of like how driving a car at 40 MPH is a pretty serious threat to your health, too. Interestingly, though, when people say there ought to be traffic laws to make cars safer so they don't crash into each other so often, I don't hear many people saying that instead of having traffic laws, we ought to have drivers "clean up their own back yard" by abstaining from unnatural speeds.

      I live in the desert in southwest USA (not California, but close enough) and your comment about our population having overtaxed the local natural resources is true. I won't deny it. Peoples' expectations about water in a desert is unrealistic. Things are only going to get more and more expensive, and people probably ought to move away to (literally) greener pastures. And by "people" I really mean "people who aren't me" because I fucking love it here.

      Just like you (probably, I hope) like where you are, in spite of the resource imbalances there too. No, I'm not calling you a hypocrit, just pointing something out: we're humans and we fight nature. FUCK NATURE. We make things our way. FUCK NATURE WITH A CHAINSAW. This is my planet, not Gaia's planet.

      Now, the problem I have with the hippies (a.k.a. Republicans) who are saying the droughts, global warming, etc are just a natural phenomenon or are still arguing that it's not man-made, is that even if they were right (though they're not), what they're talking about doesn't matter.

      Imagine we were having this conversation on a totally artificially terraformed Mars and the conditions were getting less desirable. Say the CO2 content of the atmosphere, which we had terraformed from 96% down to 0.05%, was rising and had gotten up to 0.12% and was still climbing. If some hippie Republican came along and "it's naturally 96% so I don't know what you're worried about, maaan. If you don't like it, move back to Earth," you'd punch him in the face, wouldn't you? Or you'd send him back to Earth. But what you wouldn't do, is accept the natural environment. Nor would you be even stupider and blame it on past generations (even if they deserved the blame) and therefore accept that you can't have Mars be YOUR WAY. No, you would fight. You would do something about the rising CO2 content before it got too toxic to human life.

      Just like 21st century Earthers want to do something about the rising temperatures and more volatile weather. Because they're humans -- real industrious humans, not hippie tree-huggers -- rather than all the previous stupid fuckwitted life forms who never even had any suspicions about what was happening in their reality. That's why we drive cars at 40 MPH or even much faster, instead of walking like some stupid fucking cheetah or goat or lizard.

      Get it, hippie? Now walk back to your Republican campaign headquarters.

    36. Re:wildfires? by itzly · · Score: 1

      It may be a concern, or it may not, but the burden of evidence is on those who advocate spending public money.

      If climate change is causing damage, it will also require spending public money to fix and adapt, and probably more because it means there's less time to take the proper action. By that argument, the burden of evidence is on those who advocate nothing is happening.

      Advocates of climate change action should stop the shrill rhetoric

      Most of them are very reasonable, but the over-the-top vocal ones are the ones that make the press. That's how it always goes. Drama sells papers. On the other side, there's also a very vocal group (with other agendas) that claim the world isn't warming because it snowed yesterday. It would be nice if all these extreme ends of the spectrum would shut up, but unfortunately, that's not going to happen, and we'll have to do with whatever we get.

    37. Re:wildfires? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have a solution for your CA home water issues.

      Ready? Stop voting for Democrat environmentalists.

      The science is in. If you divert millions of acre-feet of water to fulfill environmental regulations, you can't use that water for other stuff. If you stop building reservoirs and dams to store water while increasing water usage, you won't have enough water. If agriculture water prices went up enough that the agribusinesses used 12.5% less water, then every residential and industrial user in CA could use 50% more water.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    38. Re:wildfires? by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 1

      Tree rings from the coast mean nothing for Bakersfield. Relatively few microclimates have trees hundreds of years old. Tree ring size is a function of several variables, including sunlight, forest fires, temperature, crowding, disease, insect activity, and rainfall. Tree rings are a poor substitute for calibrated thermometers.

    39. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, yes, he did talk about environmentalism. He mentions climate change ("I would say that climate change is threatening my health.") and (TADA!) climate change is about environmentalism.
       
      I don't know if you're stupid or just a lazy troll but either way you fail.

    40. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd mod you down, but that's not the idea of discourse. Plus that mean's I'd have to log in...

      Your response provides nothing of merit, other than the suggestion to live somewhere else. The problem with California is that the land, for generations, has been given up to farming. The problem with farming is in the way that it has been practiced, which historically has been extremely water intensive. Farming in these areas makes use of open channels for irrigation and spray irrigation, which has a very low water efficiency (much of the water goes to areas that don't need to be irrigated/much of the water is allowed to evaporate).

      You can make fun of California for not restricting home water use (which is something that should happen), but home use is minimal compared to farming issues (90% is agricultural - http://pacinst.org/publication/assessment-of-californias-water-footprint/). As you pointed out, almonds are massively water intensive, but the truth is that meat and dairy production, some of the top agricultural products of California, are even more intensive. Milk and dairy account for almost half of California's water use (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/03/23/1372642/--Almost-half-of-the-average-Californian-s-water-footprint-is-due-to-consumption-of-meat-and-dairy).

      And yes, you can rip on California for exporting so much food, but that means that our consumption is making things worse in that state. California produces almost all of the country's almonds, apricots, dates, figs, kiwi fruit, nectarines, olives, pistachios, prunes, and walnuts. It leads in the production of avocados, grapes, lemons, melons, peaches, plums, and strawberries. California is also the second ranked producer of livestock products behind Texas (which has water issues itself...) So our consumption is making that state worse, not just the "rich people."

      As for living in Seattle - understand that you have it easy. Your climate is regular and wet, it never gets hot, it never gets cold. Your energy consumption rates are some of the lowest in the country because you don't need to consume excess energy heating and cooling. Your water comes from ample snowpack in the area, which is missing this year, so be careful, you may become the next California if the weather keeps changing.

      I say this as a sustainable design specialist, living in Seattle, and an omnivore. Quit throwing stones and start learning about the problem.

    41. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're claiming an inverse relationship between amount of catastrophic results and amount of proof needed to require action? That makes little sense.

    42. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The world is going to end today unless everyone deposits $1k into my bitcoin account. There's very little time to take action so the burden of evidence is on those who advocate nothing is happening. Please deposit your $1k now.

    43. Re:wildfires? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      If climate change is causing damage, it will also require spending public money to fix and adapt, and probably more because it means there's less time to take the proper action. By that argument, the burden of evidence is on those who advocate nothing is happening.

      By that logic, I hereby demand that the Blorks from the stealth planet Snicklefritz are invading human minds from their transmission stations in the Oort Cloud. Only $really_exensive_solution will solve the problem, and only I and my select group of cohorts can implement it.

      You have 6 months to provide evidence that I am wrong, or pay up.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    44. Re:wildfires? by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Deh climate change terrorrorists! Better sick gubbermint surveillance on them or put Bush back in orifice, he fix em good.

      How could this be played by big pharma through Obamacare? Are we going to have to watch a half hour long infomercial on a new pill that will fix the climate now?

      Realistically though, hasn't anyone noticed the decline of US west coast precipitation relational to the rise of industry in China? They are upstream on prevailing winds and jet stream and do lack emissions regulations. With all that acid rain they can sell new paint jobs on the cars almost weekly over there.

    45. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is so fucking true. Seattle is a shit-hole, with an embarrassing history replete with corruption, ass-hattery, and general dumb-shittery. I live in Seattle. I fucking hate this place.

    46. Re:wildfires? by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 1

      See I choose not to be a dumb fuck and live in a state that is going to fall in the ocean if it doesn't burn to death before then.

      LOL. You should learn a bit about the Geology in the area.

    47. Re:wildfires? by mean+pun · · Score: 1

      The difference is that there is well-documented evidence of climate change and its damage, and not of your made-up example.

      Also note that the announced studies are to learn more about the exact damage. Thus, there is reason to believe there is a problem, but not enough is known, so the studies are trying to learn more.

      To me this sounds like a pretty good investment of public money: useful science is done, and it is a defensive move against climate change. What's not to like here?

    48. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Union of Concerned "Scientists" is mostly non-scientist activists. So you are probably better off with a random internet guy.

    49. Re:wildfires? by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that if Rainier decides to blow its top, a good amount of the area around Seattle will be pretty fucked.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    50. Re:wildfires? by swillden · · Score: 2

      I don't dispute that there are regular droughts, but I'm wondering how that helps to find the cause of this particular one. I don't believe there's a 500-year clock mechanism somewhere that is responsible for triggering them.

      You misunderstand what "500-year drought" means. The 500 years is a mean interval between such droughts, not a fixed value. It doesn't mean there's some mechanism that causes a drought every 500 years, or even about every 500 years.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    51. Re:wildfires? by Dr.+Evil · · Score: 1

      "He's no uneducated, he's just anti-science."

      I can't help but to read this in a Cletus accent.

    52. Re:wildfires? by Thud457 · · Score: 1

      Do you even science bro?

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    53. Re:wildfires? by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Ok everybody, off to the Great NorthWest! We'll try to prioritize the first few million for you, but you'll have to handle the millions afterwards by yourselves.

      Lot's of humans like to migrate. Thanks for the invitation!

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    54. Re:wildfires? by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      I seriously doubt you're correct with your statement that pre 20th century wildfires are worse than what the world is experiencing now, unless you provide citations.

    55. Re:wildfires? by quantaman · · Score: 4, Informative

      You assume AGW is the cause for the current drought.

      Previous to the California "dry spell", climatologists were saying that AGW would make Calif WETTER, not dryer.

      Your claim is based on erroneous assumption.

      GIGO.

      Do you have citations for that? I did a search for agw predictions california rainfall and the first hit I got (and the only relevant one I saw) was an article about a 2005 paper predicting a very similar drought.

      It's only one paper and I have no idea whether it was widely accepted, but if you asked me a few years ago what AGW meant for California rainfall my very limited understanding would have lead me to say less rainfall.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    56. Re:wildfires? by ralphsiegler · · Score: 2

      So you dispute this statement? "While modern times have seen large wildfires, especially in California and Texas in the past few years, the worst fires ever seen in the United States took place over 100 years ago. "

    57. Re:wildfires? by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 3, Informative

      California is experiencing the worst drought (ever, perhaps). It is so bad, they are starting to ration water consumption. Scientific studies indicate climate change is real (unless you live in the USA), so in all likelihood the severe drought is an effect of climate change. And dry land causes fires easily. Ergo Climate change -> drought -> wildfires.

      How is that simple deduction a red-herring?

    58. Re:wildfires? by quantaman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It means it's a made-up problem. "Climate change is causing wildfires" is a red-herring: a lot of wildlife depends on fires to survive. Some tree seeds don't grow if they're not set fire to first; and the growth and spread of various species of underbrush rely on underbrush clearing every few years, historically done by wildfires.

      We have fewer wildfires now due to suppression efforts, which we've scaled back massively because we realized suppressing wildfires is a really fucking bad idea. Global Wargarbling isn't causing wildfires, isn't increasing the amount of wildfire pollution in the air, and isn't threatening people by mechanisms spawned from wildfires.

      This kind of spouting makes the President sound dangerously uneducated. We're lead to question more things: what is this lengthening of the allergy season, and how is it different from living in the South? Are we only concerned about half of the United States?

      Another interpretation is that particulates from wildfires were a major health hazard pre-20th century, but no one cared because there were a million major health hazards. Since then we've gained the ability to strike a proper balance between fire suppression and controlled burns for ecosystem management. But now climate change means dryer, less healthy forests that make fire suppression much more difficult. Thus wildfire pollution is becoming a larger problem than it has been for recent history.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    59. Re:wildfires? by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      out of interest, what makes the fires 100 years ago worse? the damage they caused? the amount of fires? the primitive technology to put them out?

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    60. Re:wildfires? by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't rule out that there have been some monster fires in the past that have been worse than anything we have experienced lately. But what I find hard to believe is that the total amount of burned m and CO2 released through fires was more 100 years ago than now.

      Why? Most fires are caused by people. Voluntarily or by accident. The U.S. is much more heavily and densely populated now than 100 years ago, and we have many more appliances, tools and ways to cause fires today than in the past. It sounds illogical to me that 220 million additional Americans didn't have an impact on wildfires in the USA.

    61. Re:wildfires? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I would take one of his outdoorsy chicks over one of your ditzy blond chicks any day of the week.

      Also, outdoorsy chicks tend to support themselves, rather than spending all your money like those CA chicks.

      In case anyone wonders, I am continuing a joke, not being serious.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    62. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spurious Correlations: http://www.tylervigen.com/

      Blamed on Global Warming: http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming2.html

      Is there a related logic fallacy at play here?

    63. Re:wildfires? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Empirically, we have fewer wildfires than historically; those we do have are less severe than historical wildfires. The worst wildfires come after a wet season, as there's more vegetative growth to dry out and catch fire. These are known.

      Your argument is that some theoretical connection between dryness and fire exists, and so there must be more fires now because there's a drought. You're ignoring the real facts, including counts of wildfires and the severity of those wildfires, as well as wildfire behavior.

      Someone also mentioned tree ring cores indicate a major drought every 500-ish years, so the current drought is probably the worst in about 500 years, but not necessarily the worst drought ever. 500 years is a long time, though.

    64. Re:wildfires? by budgenator · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Global climate trend since Nov. 16, 1978: +0.14 C per decade
      March temperatures (preliminary)
      Global composite temp.: +0.26 C (about 0.47 degrees Fahrenheit) above 30-year average for March.
      Northern Hemisphere: +0.41 C (about 0.74 degrees Fahrenheit) above 30-year average for March.
      Southern Hemisphere: +0.10 C (about 0.18 degrees Fahrenheit) above 30-year average for March.
      Tropics: +0.08 C (about 0.06 degrees Fahrenheit) above 30-year average for March.
      February temperatures (revised):
      Global Composite: +0.30 C above 30-year average
      Northern Hemisphere: +0.43 C above 30-year average
      Southern Hemisphere: +0.16 C above 30-year average
      Tropics: +0.01 C above 30-year average
      (All temperature anomalies are based on a 30-year average (1981-2010) for the month reported.) ....
      Neither Christy nor Spencer receives any research support or funding from oil, coal or industrial companies or organizations, or from any private or special interest groups. All of their climate research funding comes from federal and state grants or contracts.
      UAH Global Temperature Report: March 2015 – down slightly

      And just what do you suppose is driving this Climate change, it's hard to accept that it's temperature when there is so little difference in it.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    65. Re:wildfires? by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      It all started getting wacky after they sent women into space. Think about that!

    66. Re:wildfires? by MrTester · · Score: 1

      You are thinking only of where wildfires are a routine part of the existing ecosystem.
      Global Warming will expand the regions where wild fires are a threat. And when it does, it means its expanding into areas with lots of unburned undergrowth.
      Somewhere there is a bit of jungle or rainforest that is drying out and when that gets lit it will be an impressive burn.

      I live in Iowa. We have dry periods where we limit burning, but we never have massive wildfires burning out residential areas. But that could change.
      And now imagine the fallout of massive wildfires ravaging crops in the midwest.

      So yes it could cause wildfires (where they havent been an issue), increase the wildfire pollution in the air and threaten people by "mechanisms spawned by wildfires".

    67. Re:wildfires? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the Cascadia subduction zone, an earthquake there would drop a lot of buildings in Oregon and N. California too.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    68. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just gonna throw this out. I lived in SoCal in the 80s. There was a time then when there was a drought that caused water rationing. This one may be worse, but drought isn't unheard of in areas which have been known as deserts since the beginning of recorded history.

      Just saying.

    69. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the amount of money that has been funneled to the NSA had been spent on fusion research, we would have fusion now. No more fossil fuels (benefit #1) and enough power to desalinate the extra water in the ocean from glacier run off (benefit #2) and pumped back into the ground to rebuild the water tables (benefit #3) and channeled to dry areas via some big honkin' aquafers build by Americans (benefit #4)

      Or we could continue to fund domestic spying. What was I thinking?

    70. Re:wildfires? by Magius_AR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The difference is that there is well-documented evidence of climate change and its damage, and not of your made-up example.

      Not true. None of the claimed very expensive fallouts of climate change have come to fruition. So they remain mere speculation. Even if you can prove global warming is occurring, you can't prove the damage. For all you know, the beneficial outcomes could outweigh the negatives. It's all speculation.

    71. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paleoclimate data indicates that California and the Southwest have had severe droughts lasting decades and centuries in medieval times, well before problems from man made CO2 were alleged to have caused problems.

    72. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like most insufferable little twats, he isn't wrong.

    73. Re:wildfires? by DamnOregonian · · Score: 1

      Not arguing your core point, but it seems to me that a multi-century comparison of wildfire severity would be a ridiculously useless metric. A lot like a multi-century comparison of influenza mortality rates being used to prove that the flu is now less virulent.

    74. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then every residential and industrial user in CA could use 50% more water.

      lol wht?? and continue the depletion of centuries of ground water storage at an accelerating and unsustainable rate? I don't think you understand first order systems

    75. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I say this as a sustainable design specialist, living in Seattle

      So much for practicing what you preach.

    76. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is never appropriate to use slurs, metaphors, graphic negative imagery, or any other kind of
      language that plays on someone's gender, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion. Not only
      is such language inappropriate regardless of one's passion on a given subject, but any valid
      arguments that existed independently of such rhetoric should have been initially presented without
      it. Once a poster crosses this line, they should lose all credibility.

    77. Re:wildfires? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      What do you think happened before there were fire departments?

      Dalmations had to live in the streets, and suspender sales were lackluster at best?

    78. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 0

      Now, the problem I have with the hippies (a.k.a. Republicans) who are saying the droughts, global warming, etc are just a natural phenomenon or are still arguing that it's not man-made, is that even if they were right (though they're not), what they're talking about doesn't matter.

      Imagine we were having this conversation on a totally artificially terraformed Mars and the conditions were getting less desirable. Say the CO2 content of the atmosphere, which we had terraformed from 96% down to 0.05%, was rising and had gotten up to 0.12% and was still climbing. If some hippie Republican came along and "it's naturally 96% so I don't know what you're worried about, maaan. If you don't like it, move back to Earth," you'd punch him in the face, wouldn't you? Or you'd send him back to Earth. But what you wouldn't do, is accept the natural environment. Nor would you be even stupider and blame it on past generations (even if they deserved the blame) and therefore accept that you can't have Mars be YOUR WAY. No, you would fight. You would do something about the rising CO2 content before it got too toxic to human life

      OMG THIS THIS THIS. I cannot understand the argument over AGW. Tea partiers seem to think that because people didn't cause climate change, we shouldn't do anything to prevent/mitigate it. It's like saying if the waters are rising we shouldn't build a dyke because it's not our fault the waters are rising. well all that happens is that you get flooded, when with a bit of work you could prevent that.

    79. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 0

      actually because LA is on the west side of the fault and the majority of SF is on the east side of the fault, eventually we'll have a supermegatropolis of LASF.

    80. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      now it just has two seasons... dry with no fires (winter) and dry with fires (summer)

    81. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ha ha! You think the WSJ is a real news source!

      Bought by Rupert years ago, it's a sister company to Fox News, so I have trouble taking anything the WSJ says seriously.

      The facts in the article may well be true, but you need a better source if you want them to be considered seriously.

    82. Re: wildfires? by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      You think you're having to pay for it now?! Man, just you wait until the price per Kilowatt rises! Once the coal plants shutdown, you will surely pay for it then!!!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    83. Re: wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      CA gets a very small % of power from coal, so any cost increase from coal power plants wont' effect us. we will keep investing in NG and renewables.

    84. Re:wildfires? by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      At least when we say our chicks are hot, we mean they're fit and attractive. His chicks are just dumpy and wearing wool sweaters and struggling to pedal their vintage bicycles.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    85. Re:wildfires? by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      ... in the long run it has eroded public support as the alarmist predictions fail to materialize.

      Perhaps the problem is the hyperbolic overstatement of predictions by climate science denial leaders or even unscientific people on the alarmist side rather than the actual predictions of scientists. I find most of the actual scientific predictions to be on the conservative side.

    86. Re:wildfires? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      You're right, climate change doesn't cause wildfires. But it does exacerbate conditions that lead to larger and more intense fires.

    87. Re:wildfires? by riverat1 · · Score: 2

      You assume AGW is the cause for the current drought.

      Previous to the California "dry spell", climatologists were saying that AGW would make Calif WETTER, not dryer.

      Your claim is based on erroneous assumption.

      GIGO.

      A recent study by the University of Minnesota and Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute found that while the amount of precipitation wasn't unusually low for a drought the intense heat was. That causes increased soil and plant evapotranspiration leaving the soil dryer making the the worst drought in the past 1,200 years. The intense heat is easier to connect to AGW.

    88. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real issue is, there's no such thing as public money. There's only money that some people use the government as a means to hijack from their neighbors.

    89. Re:wildfires? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I saw a number predict things like a California drought. So your "none" doesn't sound true. Or are you saying that there isn't a drought in CA?

    90. Re:wildfires? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      I don't think you understand how little water is used in CA for household and industrial vs. Agriculture.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    91. Re:wildfires? by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      So it is bad form to play the terrorist card as uneducated? Maybe they should have thought of that in DC back in 2001 when they played it all the way through drafting the terrorist act being that they were all experts on the subject with that one experience, and of course changing our way of life to suit the existence of it (playing the wimp card and the cash grab card all in one play). Perhaps you are a politician and took it personal?

    92. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      htf is this not modded down as flamebait or trollish? Good work mods.

    93. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I predict that at some point today it will be 5:00 pm in (pick your time zone) and great consumption of alcoholic beverages will follow.

      Geologic history shows that there have always been droughts in So. Cal. since North America became North America.

    94. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to Michael Mann! One tree in Yamal is better than all the thermometers in the world!!!!

    95. Re:wildfires? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So all AGW predictions that are false. Except the ones that are true. And the true ones are obvious and would have come true without AGW. Is that the no true scotsman for AGW?

    96. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG THIS THIS THIS. I cannot understand the argument over AGW. Tea partiers seem to think that because people didn't cause climate change, we shouldn't do anything to prevent/mitigate it. It's like saying if the waters are rising we shouldn't build a dyke because it's not our fault the waters are rising. well all that happens is that you get flooded, when with a bit of work you could prevent that.

      Great point!!! BTW, you seem to be the ideal person to buy my slightly-used scarecrow, since you obviously are a dealer in strawmen.

    97. Re:wildfires? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Mudslides are coming.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    98. Re:wildfires? by Noah+Haders · · Score: 1

      Winter is coming! On Sunday!

    99. Re:wildfires? by Evtim · · Score: 1

      It's politics, pure and simple.

      Just another case where politics/business brainwashed people there is no problem. Now, because Nature cannot be fooled and laws of Nature cannot be broken, finally the powerful have decided to do something [because they are scared for themselves]. But the public does not buy it after so many years of lies.

      So, they are wondering how to sell the facts and they go for the most obvious - don't tell the whole ecosystem is in danger and billions of people already have troubles with water, don't tell about shortage of arable land [the rest being poisoned already by Roundup and the like] and so on [the list goes for weeks].

      Instead tell them it is about the most sacred thing in the world - the health of the Americans.

      This whole story is revolting. Thinking about the health of the people? After making them one of the sickest first world nations while spending quadrupled amounts of money compared to the rest? Really?

      Politicians are prostitutes; businessmen are evil [both facts are result of the system, which filters out such people and promotes them]. It boggles my mind that people actually expect pro active measures from governments and corporations. Those entities never lead; they follow, because the only thing they are concerned about is preserving the status quo [where they are on the top]. There will never be meaningful CHANGE about anything under this system. Get your heads around this fact if you want our civilization to survive and prosper.

    100. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You rich capitalist pig!

    101. Re:wildfires? by allcoolnameswheretak · · Score: 1

      It would be interesting to know how those temperatures were measured. The most common approach is measuring air temperature. Scientists have found however that the oceans act as a climate regulator for planet Earth and suck alot of heat and CO2 out of the atmosphere. Sometimes that heat comes back to the surface in bursts and sometimes it stays in deeper layers of the ocean. But the heat is never gone, it is simply in the water.

    102. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tree rings can't be due to water changes, Mann uses them as thermometers to make a hockey stick!

      So which is it, water or temperature? AGW crowd needs to make it's mind up as to how to use tree rings!!!

    103. Re:wildfires? by Troed · · Score: 1

      California is experiencing the worst drought (ever, perhaps)

      Not according to science.

      Through studies of tree rings, sediment and other natural evidence, researchers have documented multiple droughts in California that lasted 10 or 20 years in a row during the past 1,000 years -- compared to the mere three-year duration of the current dry spell. The two most severe megadroughts make the Dust Bowl of the 1930s look tame: a 240-year-long drought that started in 850 and, 50 years after the conclusion of that one, another that stretched at least 180 years.

      http://www.mercurynews.com/sci...

      Which of course makes me wonder why so many people feel it's important to claim otherwise.

    104. Re:wildfires? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The assertion is that is has and is. It hasn't and isn't.

      Your mom could buttfuck you with a dildo she used on a hooker and give you HIV.

    105. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually, if you look at the long term climate (more than the last 150 years), you will see that California is now coming down from a wet period, and returning to it's more long term 'normal'.

    106. Re:wildfires? by BravoZuluM · · Score: 1

      Except that the climate models predict a wetter California. California is a desert. The geologic...and visual record supports this.

      Climate change should be making it rain here.

    107. Re:wildfires? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can thank the IMF and globalization for that, consumption on our part is very small when you look at the numbers. the majority of the USA's gross ag product is shipped elsewhere.

    108. Re:wildfires? by Bartles · · Score: 1

      That's what I get for looking at the keyboard when I type.

    109. Re:wildfires? by david_thornley · · Score: 2

      The problem is agriculture. There is no other use of water in California that is anywhere close. Reducing agricultural usage by 1% would do much more than eliminating flush toilets entirely, and is a much more realistic and desirable goal. If agriculture used 12.5% less water, that would have a big impact. If California wants a 25% reduction in water use, though, agriculture is going to have to take a hit of about 25%.

      The other problem is that WSJ opinions and editorials have fallen in line behind Murdoch's party line, and no longer represent any sort of serious thought process. Sad but true.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    110. Re:wildfires? by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Doing the math another way, if you want the equivalent of a 25% reduction in home and industrial water use (what the State government is calling for), you need to reduce agricultural use by only about 6% to get that same savings in water.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    111. Re:wildfires? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      the NASA Aqua has on board a radiometer that measures the upward microwave radiation from molecules in the Earth's lower troposphere. these radiometers are calibrated against both an on-board platinum wire thermometer and the Cosmic Microwave Background. From these readings the temperature of the air can be calculated.

      Data are available as global, hemispheric, zonal, and gridded averages. The global average covers 97-98% of the earth's surface, excluding only latitudes above +85 degrees, below -85 degrees and, in the cases of TLT and TMT, some areas with land above 1500 m altitude. The hemispheric averages are over the northern and southern hemispheres 0 to +/-85 degrees. The gridded data provide an almost global temperature map
      UAH satellite temperature dataset Geographic coverage

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    112. Re:wildfires? by ralphsiegler · · Score: 1

      probably primative tech (for fighting and fleeing) and communication, so hundreds or over a thousand could be killed

    113. Re:wildfires? by Bathroom+Humor · · Score: 1

      That's the problem I have with alarmism. It's turning REAL issues into a 'boy who cried wolf' scenario, where facts are twisted, risks are overstated, harm is over-inflated, things are too immediate and too big to hold off any longer. That's not what a lot of people want to hear, especially when the evidence doesn't line up perfectly with predictions or claims. It makes them annoyed with the speaker, makes them lose trust, but most harmful of all, it decreases the willingness to accept and participate when real issues come up and sensible solutions are brought forward.
      Of course, some people will deny any science or topic regardless of how well-reasoned the argument is. They have someone telling them it is a scam and they don't care how much sense it makes. But still, alarmism hurts the perception of almost everyone, and It happens in everything from civil equality, climate change, poverty, etc to varying degrees. Real issues exist and should be handled with reason and compassion, but some people are constantly crying wolf over a fox, while others think that these particular wolves are imaginary altogether.

      I don't totally disagree with Obama in that the climate is warming a changing climate CAN definitely cause big issues (dryer forests mean it's easier to start a fire, even if there's less vegetation to feed it). And mosquitoes, while not totally dependent on tropical climates, do tend to stick around longer where it's warmer. Same for seasonal allergies. I support measures taken to monitor and eventually alleviate issues that arise. But if he frames things in a way that makes it seem more catastrophic than it currently is, it can just cause more disbelief than cooperation.

    114. Re:wildfires? by mcswell · · Score: 1

      > If climate change is causing damage, it will also require spending
      > public money to fix and adapt, and probably more because it means
      > there's less time to take the proper action. By that argument, the
      > burden of evidence is on those who advocate nothing is happening.

      As one of the suppliers of that public money, I disagree. I want to see evidence that my taxes are going towards a problem, not towards someone's pocketbook.

      And yes, I realize the irony of that...

    115. Re:wildfires? by mcswell · · Score: 1

      Tree rings from the coast mean nothing for Bakersfield... Tree rings are a poor substitute for calibrated thermometers.

      I thought this was about drought, not temperature? And for the state of California, not the city of Bakersfield.

      Ok, the borders of California are not necessarily where the drought begins/ ends, but still. We're supposedly talking climate, not microclimate.

    116. Re:wildfires? by mcswell · · Score: 1

      I live near The Other Washington (the one near Maryland), and I'll gladly change places with you. (I have lived in Seattle and its environs before, although I don't recall having fought nature.)

  2. Holy Fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is there nothing these people won't blame on Climate Change?

    1. Re:Holy Fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. They were actually blaming the Syrian civil war on climate change.

      The fact is, AGW is not the end of the world scenario leftists were hoping for, so they've had to invent reasons to scare the heck out of people just to have the crisis they need to pursue their social, cultural and political agendas.

      Simple as that.

    2. Re:Holy Fuck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is there nothing these people won't blame on Climate Change?

      If they don't keep flogging the reddish-brown spot on the ground where the dead horse used to be before it was pounded into the dirt, then they lose the justification for all of the increases in government regulatory power that require the 'dire threat' of anthropogenic climate change (remember when it used to be 'anthropogenic global warming' back before the 18-year pause in warming that the IPCC's climate models still can't account for?) to have any shred of justification for arrogating that power to the government.

    3. Re:Holy Fuck by erp_consultant · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bingo. This is nothing more than an excuse to pony up more money for research on "Climate change" or "Global warming"...or whatever the heck they are calling it now. Naturally, the Environmentalists and research scientists love this. Beats getting a real job I suppose...but I digress.

      These climate models that this is based on are complete rubbish. There are so many variables that you can make them reach any conclusion you want simply by changing the values you input. We can't even predict an accurate weather forecast more than 10 days in the future. How could we possibly predict what the weather is going to be like in 100 years? Or 50 years? Or 1 year? Or even next month.

      Don't take my word for it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/com...

      Have a read at that article.

      I'm all for conservation and having more fuel efficient cars and less pollution and all that. I'm all for preserving the forests and ice caps. But let's not pretend that "climate change" is to blame for every drought or hurricane.

    4. Re:Holy Fuck by weszz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When I read this... My first thought was he is planning to use this to tax everyone based on healthcare... Which isn't a tax unless you talk to the Supreme Court, then and only then it is a tax for not having health care that the IRS watches... (so it is constitutional)

      So if you aren't doing your part for environmentalism, will the IRS tax you on that as a healthcare risk someday?

      Sounds crazy I know, but just crazy enough for someone to try.

    5. Re:Holy Fuck by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      These climate models that this is based on are complete rubbish. There are so many variables that you can make them reach any conclusion you want simply by changing the values you input. We can't even predict an accurate weather forecast more than 10 days in the future. How could we possibly predict what the weather is going to be like in 100 years? Or 50 years? Or 1 year? Or even next month.

      Climate != Weather.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    6. Re:Holy Fuck by ckatko · · Score: 2

      Just because Green energy douchebags are making money off of a problem, does not mean the problem does not exist.

    7. Re:Holy Fuck by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Climate change certainly did contribute to triggering the Syrian civil war:

      http://www.scientificamerican....

      AGW won't cause a quick Roland Emmerich apocalypse, but there are definitely more interesting surprises in store if we do nothing...and you can blame them on whatever you want, it won't keep them from happening.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    8. Re:Holy Fuck by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      You'd better find a better article to base your thoughts on. I wouldn't hold up Christopher Booker as an impartial (or smart) commentator... e.g.

      Climate change ---- On climate change Booker is one of a number of strong critics in the U.K. press of the United Nations IPCC claims on global warming in the 21st century.

      Intelligent design ---- Booker has also argued in support of intelligent design, claiming that supporters of the theory of evolution "rest their case on nothing more than blind faith and unexamined a priori assumptions".

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    9. Re:Holy Fuck by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      These climate models that this is based on are complete rubbish. There are so many variables that you can make them reach any conclusion you want simply by changing the values you input. We can't even predict an accurate weather forecast more than 10 days in the future. How could we possibly predict what the weather is going to be like in 100 years? Or 50 years? Or 1 year? Or even next month.

      The difference between weather model and climate model prediction is like the difference between predicting one flip of a coin and the average of 1000 flips of a coin. You can't predict the results of the 1000th flip any better than you can predict the first but you can predict that the split between heads and tails will be right around 50%.

    10. Re:Holy Fuck by Troed · · Score: 1

      No, it's actually much much worse. Climate scientists create error bars on their projections by running models with different input parameters. They're not using the actual error variables from measurements and propagating the compounded error forwards in the calculations - which is how it's done in every other branch of science.

      If you do that, the projections become meaningless just a few years out. The climate system is absolutely nothing like the single variable coin flip.

      I'm very worried about the anti-science stance taken in climate discussions just because it doesn't lead to the preconceived result some hope to show (or even effect).

    11. Re:Holy Fuck by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      What you call error bars on climate model projections are more properly called confidence intervals, that is the range within which 95% of the weather is expected to vary. Since measurements are not used as inputs to climate models any measurement error is immaterial to them.

      Perhaps rolling dice would have been a better example than coin flips. A single flip or roll of dice is equivalent to weather, the average of many flips or rolls of the dice is equivalent to climate.

    12. Re:Holy Fuck by Troed · · Score: 1

      There's no scientific support - whatsoever - for claiming that there's an expectation of weather to keep within 95% of the "confidence intervals". A model is only as good as its inputs - and measurements (en masse) are what those inputs are created from.

      This is well known in all other fields of science, where claims of "confidence intervals" based on model runs would rightly get laughed out of all journals. The error bars of your measurements, inherit in all equipment, must be carried forward in all calculations.

      For some reason that's not done in climate science. I don't understand why - there's no difference between "climate equipment" and other forms of equipment.

    13. Re:Holy Fuck by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      What are these measurements you think are inputs to climate models? It's certainly not temperature measurements or precipitation measurements or wind measurements.

      It sounds to me like you badly misunderstand how climate models work. As much as possible they are physical models. That is they model the actual physics that combine to produce our climate. Measurements of the actual climate are only useful as something to compare model output against.

    14. Re:Holy Fuck by Troed · · Score: 1

      I understand the climate models very well. How do you think the input parameters to the models are derived?

      The parametrizations also involve numerical parameters that must be specified as input. Some of these parameters can be measured, at least in principle, while others cannot.

      - IPCC AR4 WG1

      The values used for parametrization are based on research that begins with measurements. Those measurements have errors - as in any other branch of science - yet those errors are not propagated through the calculations.

      Science thus says that climate models cannot do projections more than a few years out, until the combined error exceeds the projection range.

    15. Re:Holy Fuck by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The parameterizations in climate models are done to cover things that don't fit well with the scale* the models have to run on or things that are not well enough understood to put into code in the model. The parameterizations just basically emulate things we know about that can't be directly included in the code. Even though they are derived from measurements that have error it makes no sense to carry that error into the models because the parameters are only an emulation of reality. It would make more sense to just vary the parameters based on the measurement error for different model runs to see how that affects the output.

      * By scale I mean the grid size and time divisions they have to use due to the limitations of computer power.

    16. Re:Holy Fuck by Troed · · Score: 1

      No, there's no reason to treat error bars differently in climate science compared to any other branch of science.

      At least if climate science aspires to be a science. If it doesn't - then by all means pretend that measurement errors don't affect the reliability of the calculations.

  3. OH NO! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Life is dangerous! There are things out there that can kill you!

    This is just one of Obama's (or any president for that matter, this sort of thing is hardly limited to him) attempts at pushing some sort of agenda. In this case, trying to get people to care about climate change.

    Warning of the perils to the planet has gotten the president only so far; polls consistently show the public is skeptical that the steps Obama has taken to curb pollution are worth the cost to the economy. So Obama is aiming to put a spotlight on ways that climate change will have real impacts on the body, like more asthma attacks, allergic reactions, heat-related deaths and injuries from extreme weather.

    If he can't scare you with tales of the oceans boiling off or Florida turning into (more of) a swamp, then he has to do something else. Think of the children!

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    1. Re:OH NO! by itzly · · Score: 1

      This is just one of Obama's (or any president for that matter, this sort of thing is hardly limited to him) attempts at pushing some sort of agenda.

      Or any other person for that matter, this sort of thing is hardly limited to presidents.

    2. Re:OH NO! by hey! · · Score: 1

      A politician? With an agenda? Doesn't our socialist Muslim Kenyan president know that politicians aren't supposed to try to accomplish anything?

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re:OH NO! by g0bshiTe · · Score: 1

      If they truly want to make people take notice of climate change and that it is real, they need extreme measures that will never happen, pass law to ban burning of fossil fuels.

      You can not pass laws making a multi-billion dollar industry illegal.

      This is why we have the bastard that is ACA vs a nationalized system without the need for insurers.

      --
      I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!
    4. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In this case, trying to get people to care about climate change.

      And that is a good thing. If you don't understand that, then please jump off this planet, because then you are part of the problem.

    5. Re:OH NO! by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Life is dangerous! There are things out there that can kill you!

      I purpose a new EULA for all newborns. They must acknowledge that being born will be hazardous to their health. I just haven't worked out the recourse if they refuse to acknowledge it. I'm pretty sure they can't go back where they came from.

    6. Re:OH NO! by OhPlz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A nationalized system isn't the paradise you think it is. Just wait until you end up on a two year waiting list because your system is nationalized and there's no incentive for them to do any better, and you have no other options.

    7. Re:OH NO! by Nyder · · Score: 0

      Life is dangerous! There are things out there that can kill you!

      ...

      Yes there is, they are called Police Men. Cops. They have no problem killing you, mainly if you are running away or are black.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    8. Re:OH NO! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If the worst thing that happens as a result of AGW is allergies, then we're going to be fine.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A nationalized system isn't the paradise you think it is. Just wait until you end up on a two year waiting list because your system is nationalized and there's no incentive for them to do any better, and you have no other options.

      Riiight. Like no one was ever denied coverage by a health insurance company. Suddenly we'll have "death panels" and nameless bureaucrats, because conservatives are too stupid to realize we already had them.

    10. Re:OH NO! by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      I purpose a new EULA for all newborns. They must acknowledge that being born will be hazardous to their health. I just haven't worked out the recourse if they refuse to acknowledge it. I'm pretty sure they can't go back where they came from.

      ...and yet most men spend their entire adult lives trying to do just that.

      (wait for it...)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    11. Re:OH NO! by OhPlz · · Score: 1, Informative

      You could always choose another insurer, you could choose to pay out of pocket.. you at least have some options. In a nationalized system that's rationing care, you have no options. I'll take having a choice to not having a choice, thanks.

      Besides which, I don't know what kind of crap insurance you have, but I don't tend to have problems with claims. I can see a specialist within weeks whereas my not-so-far-away neighbors in Canada wait years depending on the specialist. I don't want that. You shouldn't either.

    12. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he can't scare you with tales of the oceans boiling off or Florida turning into (more of) a swamp, then he has to do something else. Think of the children!

      Mmmm.... Wildfire roasted baby back ribs.

    13. Re:OH NO! by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      You could always choose another insurer, you could choose to pay out of pocket

      Even if we went with the libertarian ideal of deregulation and lowered the bar to entry, no. That doesn't solve the problem of restricted access to care. What happens is that people who can't pay *still* get less care because no one will cover them.

      Paying out of pocket is right out because of how fucking expensive it is in the US to get health care.

      I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a Canadian style system. Mostly because the issues of waiting lists and such are largely bullshit.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    14. Re:OH NO! by Barsteward · · Score: 1

      some allergies are fatal...

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    15. Re:OH NO! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That is both true and irrelevant.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    16. Re:OH NO! by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Your point is both true and irrelevant.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    17. Re:OH NO! by Rockoon · · Score: 2

      Paying out of pocket is right out because of how fucking expensive it is in the US to get health care.

      Its expensive *because* people dont pay out of pocket.

      With insurance the cost of a broken leg and an emergency room visit is $63000, while the cost for the same without insurance is only $1300.

      The problem with the collectivist vision is and always will be tragedy of the commons.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    18. Re:OH NO! by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      I just haven't worked out the recourse if they refuse to acknowledge it.

      We've got no problem killing them only a few months earlier... so it just requires moving the line.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    19. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Urukagina's code has been widely hailed as the first recorded example of government reform, seeking to achieve a higher level of freedom and equality.[2] It limited the power of the priesthood and large property owners, and took measures against usury, burdensome controls, hunger, theft, murder, and seizure (of people's property and persons); as he states, "The widow and the orphan were no longer at the mercy of the powerful man".

      Despite these apparent attempts to curb the excesses of the elite class, it seems elite or royal women enjoyed even greater influence and prestige in his reign than previously. Urukagina greatly expanded the royal "Household of Women" from about 50 persons to about 1500 persons, renamed it the "Household of goddess Bau", gave it ownership of vast amounts of land confiscated from the former priesthood, and placed it under the supervision of his wife, Shasha (or Shagshag).[3] In his second year of reign, Shasha presided over the lavish funeral of his predecessor's queen, Baranamtarra, who had been an important personage in her own right.

      In addition to such changes, two of his other surviving decrees, first published and translated by Samuel Kramer in 1964, have attracted controversy in recent decades. First, he seems to have abolished the former custom of polyandry in his country, on pain of the woman taking multiple husbands being stoned with rocks upon which her crime is written.[4] Second is a statute stating that "if a woman says [text illegible...] to a man, her mouth is crushed with burnt bricks." No comparable laws from Urukagina addressing penalties for adultery by men have survived. The discovery of these fragments has led some modern critics to assert that they provide "the first written evidence of the degradation of women".[5]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urukagina

      It is the same trick over and over since literally the first recorded example. Somehow progress gets made though.

    20. Re:OH NO! by OhPlz · · Score: 1, Informative

      Depends which prices you're quoting. At many health care facilities, the amount charged to insurers is way higher than the amount charged to individuals if they don't have coverage. It's very difficult to say whether or not care is expensive because so many of the figures are bogus.

      The waiting lists aren't BS. The article you linked even says as much. General care you'll probably be fine with but many specialties do have long wait lists. My point is bigger than that though. If you nationalize it, you're stuck with the official waiting list. Right now, you can at least "shop around".

      Our system really isn't that bad. There are things that could be done to improve it, things that should have been done instead of the AHA. Making it all the domain of the feds is the last thing you want to do. They couldn't even launch a website with years of preparation. They can't even keep the Veterans Administration out of the news for any length of time. They'd have to prove competency in something before a majority of Americans are going to want more federal intrusion in their lives.

      My healthcare is between me and my doctor. Not the government.

    21. Re:OH NO! by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      Seventy-second trimester abortions it is then.

    22. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where does that happen? My parents are in Canada, and have never had to wait for health care. While my father-in-law was dying in the states and we had hospital officials visit us, just an hour before the last rights were administered, to discuss payment plans, my father got diagnosed with colon cancer, seen in days, treated for free, and recovered.

      I've yet to see a nationalized system that's as broken as the American system if you are not rich. If you're well off, it's great.

    23. Re:OH NO! by dave420 · · Score: 1

      If you are on a two-year waiting list, your problem is minor and definitely not life-threatening, and if it's really that important to you, you can spend the few hundred to get it treated privately. Not that your hypothetical is common. The outcomes in the US health system compared to nationalized systems in the rest of the western world don't agree with you. The incentives are that the health system is run by doctors, and they will strive to make the best service possible, again as we can see in other countries. You should also check how much money is wasted on insurance middle-men, and how they've driven up prices to the current ridiculous levels.

    24. Re:OH NO! by dave420 · · Score: 1

      With a nationalized system your healthcare would still be between you and your doctor, but the tab is picked up by the country. Currently your healthcare is between you and your doctor and your insurer, and you are paying far more than you should for the same treatment. If you're happy with that, then you really drank the kool-aid.

    25. Re:OH NO! by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 1

      With insurance the cost of a broken leg and an emergency room visit is $63000, while the cost for the same without insurance is only $1300.

      $1300 for a procedure that the rest of the first world gets for free? What a bargain.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
    26. Re:OH NO! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was talking to an insurance person fairly high up in a very large insurance company and I was told that our current system has about 50% overhead mostly because of complicated paper work from the many types of insurance companies, while medicare only has about 10% overhead because of the standardized submission process. In a nutshell, if all insurance companies charged exactly the same amount and submissions were done exactly the same way, making more than one insurance company pointless, we could reduce monetary waste by about 40%, effectively reducing hospital bills by about 40% on average.

    27. Re:OH NO! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      As opposed to the politicians who will swear for the next five hundred years that nothing's out of the ordinary as all the coastal cities flood? The atmosphere is warming up, as is the top part of the ocean. This will cause problems. Exactly what problems are debateable, and the proper course of action is extremely debateable.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    28. Re:OH NO! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One of the ideas behind the ACA is to create an actual marketplace for health insurance, so you can choose another insurer. Previously, we were pretty much limited to what our employers decided, not what we decided. As for paying out of pocket...have you had any major health problems in the US? Have you looked at the bill? Since you've got claims, if so you know what the insurance company winds up paying, and that's a better rate than you'll pay out of pocket. My heart attack was billed at about $70K, and it was really minor as heart attacks go. My out-of-pocket cost, when the dust settled, was $60. (Double coverage; my wife had family coverage to cover our son, and I had individual coverage from my employer.)

      In the meantime, I get the care I need pretty much when I want it. Life is good in the US when you have really excellent health insurance.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. Howard University by DarrinJWard · · Score: 1

    i went there, and i'm an idiot.

    --
    Please use SEOChat.com and ChatButton.com so i can install viruses on your users' computers
  5. Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate deniers. by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I know Obama is trying to call people to action, and is pulling the "Think of the children" routine. However...
    Making it a health risk is pushing it. And the climate deniers will point out to these dangers as proof the Climate Change is an invention of the liberals as a means to scare the nation so they can take away our rights.

    Yea it sounds stupid to me too... But for climate change, you should keep your expectations on a reasonable prediction, because if it doesn't hold true, then they are going to get you.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  6. Mosquitos by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Mosquitoes are not limited to warm climates, as anyone who has been to Alaska in the summer can confirm. If the government really wanted to do something about the illnesses these critters spread, they should re-authorize DDT. The "science" that led to the ban was junk, and tens of millions of humans have died needlessly because of malaria infestations which could have been prevented.

    1. Re:Mosquitos by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I wonder if some day we will look back at "global warming" the same way.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:Mosquitos by Megane · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As I understand it, DDT sprayed out in the open (swamps, etc.) is bad. But DDT that doesn't make it to water (spraying it on the walls of a third-world hut) is just fine. But no, we have to react as though just saying its name out loud once will kill a thousand birds.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:Mosquitos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But DDT that doesn't make it to water (spraying it on the walls of a third-world hut) is just fine.

      Until it rains on the hut and washes the DDT off into the ground water. Oops.

      I have a moron^H^H^H^H^H^H colleague who decided to come to work today with the NORA virus, and is bragging about how rotten she feels and what a dedicated worker she is. "It isn't airborn, so don't touch my keyboard". Right. And thanks for fondling the printer bitch, now a big chunk of the office is likely to get your bug. But if I complain, hey, I'm the bad guy.

      There are always more vectors for something to spread than any of us think of, whether its NORA, DDT, or whatever. Taking a careful approach isn't just the smart thing to do, it's often the only responsible thing to do.

    4. Re:Mosquitos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My local town near Chicago has already been 'doing something' about mosquitoes for years now. Every summer they spray every fucking street with some kind of insecticide, without even letting anyone know. Kills all the bugs for the rest of the season, but also lets lovely wafts of poison into your house in the dead of night if your windows happen to be open.

    5. Re:Mosquitos by quantaman · · Score: 1

      Mosquitoes are not limited to warm climates

      But the ones that spread malaria are.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    6. Re:Mosquitos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DDT advocacy. The slashdot libertarian nutjobs never cease to amaze me. Plenty of good science say its pretty damn bad for people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Effects_on_human_health let alone what it does to other very important creatures in our ecosystem.

    7. Re:Mosquitos by CaptainLard · · Score: 1

      Lets hope so! That will mean we won't be dealing with all the mass migrations and any other abrupt changes that humans tend not to deal with very well.

      Unfortunately its also impossible. First of all, people die of malaria but it is nowhere near the GP's 10's of millions (WHO cites 863k deaths worldwide as of 2008...not nothing but not a bullshit FUD number either). Second, while no link to cancer has been found, DDT does have wide ranging environmental impacts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT#Effects_on_wildlife_and_eggshell_thinning) so it behooves us not to spray shit everywhere for a relatively minor annoyance in most of the world. Third, the DDT scare started with one book that brought up the cancer question. Reports of dangers from human caused global warming are widely distributed among many 1000's of climate scientists dating back to the 1930's. Dissenting opinions are almost always found to have been funded by the oil industry in some way.

      So even without a crystal ball you can be sure that we will not look back at your QUOTE global warming QUOTE in the same way. The smart money is on a situation similar to the lead industry propaganda campaign of the mid 1900's.

    8. Re:Mosquitos by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Ok, so "some day" is apparently not today.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    9. Re:Mosquitos by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 1

      Malaria use to be a huge problem in norther climates before the widespread use of DDT. No reason it could not come back. Also, Malaria is not the only mosquito-borne disease. West Nile is a problem in temperate zones.

    10. Re:Mosquitos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone else posted on another post in the past... http://www.gocomics.com/joelpett/2009/12/13/

      Also, the real worry is if Microsoft starts weaponizing drones using mosquitos.

    11. Re:Mosquitos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably not. Just like we look back on the pundits and lawyers that tried to tell people that cigarettes weren't bad or by banning indoor smoking you were taking away 'freedom'.

    12. Re:Mosquitos by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      The science is settled like the aether, land bridges, dark matter and stomach ulcers.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    13. Re:Mosquitos by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Salt in the diet... Dietary cholesterol...

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  7. You can stop at "Obama says" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Has anyone ever heard him speak a truth?

  8. The Zero is Absolutely Insane by BCtoo · · Score: 0

    nt

  9. Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More tendentious propaganda. So many errors, it is hard to know where to start.
    "inevitable effects of a warmer, more erratic climate" - the earths temperatures have not risen in the past 10-20 years depending on which temperature series you look at. For the USA, we have USCRN (climate reference network -google that) with pristine non-urban heat island contaminated so there are no funky temperature "adjustments" which other measurements use to create the appearance of more warming. According the the USCRN, there has been NO warming in the past ten years, the duration of data collection so far.
    The climate is NOT more erratic, even the UNIPCC says there is not link from global warming to extreme weather events. Tornadoes are down in the US, and when is the last hurricane to make landfall in the US?

    Asthma? If you know people with asthma, you know cold air precipitates more asthma attacks. Most increases in asthma are from poverty, and unclean indoor air, not fossil fuel pollution in the air. The EPA shows that US air pollution is declining for most common pollutants like particulate, ozone, nitrogen oxides etc, so any increase in asthma is NOT from power plants, yet this is precisely where Obama wants to place his controls, which will make our power grid less stable and drive up the cost of energy.

    "infectious diseases that could break out if climate change worsens" - "could" pure speculation, again the UNIPCC says there is no evidence for this.

    And methane, another scare story. Methane levels in the atmosphere are in the ppb, and increasing more slowly than the alarmist computer models predict. See...
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2015/01/27/methane-deceptions/

    Those "strict limits" on vehicles and power plants will be very costly to America, all driven by a radical eco-agenda.

    1. Re:Propaganda by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every statement a moronic lie. Well done, not a single shred of truth anywhere. A perfect score of zero.

  10. LIttle Help by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I was checking my map for Margarita Ville and have come up dry. It should be somewhere around here (N.O.) but hell if I can spot it. I've stopped and asked at every roadside daiquiri stall I came across. Came here as last gasp.

  11. Nice to have a president with priorities by helixcode123 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Nice to have a president with priorities towards the well being of the citizens of our country, current and future.

    --

    In a band? Use WheresTheGig for free.

    1. Re: Nice to have a president with priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even "Massa" gave his slaves food and water.

    2. Re:Nice to have a president with priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what is Iran getting and using nuclear weapons going to do for global warming? I guess he is hoping for a nuclear winter to counteract it.

    3. Re:Nice to have a president with priorities by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be if we had one.

  12. allergies by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    First thought: Global warming is making allergies and asthma worse, yeah, because there's... more things growing...

    Ok wait, how is that a bad thing, again?

    (I have severe allergies and asthma. But I live in a time where medication for these conditions has never been more effective or had fewer side-effects. One pill in the morning, carry medications for emergencies, and I'm good. I'm not in a position to complain that the growing season is longer.)

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:allergies by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, Obama's smoking habit is statistically more likely to have impacted his daughter's asthma (his example) than global warming ever will.

      I guess there's no good having a boogeyman if you can't blame everything you've ever seen as a problem on it...

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    2. Re:allergies by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I've yet to find a good allergy medication without unpleasant side-effects or that diminishes in effectiveness over time as the body compensates. You cannot extrapolate your personal experience to all others. Despite what any Beatles tune says, I am not you.

    3. Re:allergies by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, Obama's smoking habit is statistically more likely to have impacted his daughter's asthma (his example) than global warming ever will.

      And smoking habit is George Bush's fault.

    4. Re:allergies by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      It's too bad James Hansen's original doomsday scenario -- the earth as an arctic wasteland -- didn't come to pass, then.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    5. Re:allergies by blackiner · · Score: 1

      I've yet to find a single allergy medication that even has an affect on me. Spring is awful. Cats are even worse.

    6. Re:allergies by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Cats are even worse.

      I find them absolutely delicious!

    7. Re:allergies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, cats are EVIL.

      And they cause me allergies as well...

    8. Re:allergies by bug_hunter · · Score: 1

      Except according to the article it's not that more plants are growing but that plants are in bloom for longer (which doesn't necessarily directly translate to more viable plants) and airborne ash causing asthma.
      The only thing that is said to be growing more are insects.

      It's fine to be skeptical of that information, but I wouldn't make a leap of "President says - allergies and asthma are getting worse" therefore "more things are growing and everything will be fine"

      --
      It's turtles all the way down.
    9. Re:allergies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And global warming is directly causing an increase in Cats?

  13. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by aaron4801 · · Score: 2

    But Obama only has another 20 months as President. Nothing is going to prove him wrong in that time, so he can say just about anything he wants, true or not. We live in a world of short news cycles, and even if he says this every day for the next year: as soon as it's out of the news, it's forgotten. There's simply no incentive for a politician to take any long-term stance that s/he has to stand behind.

  14. Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by BoRegardless · · Score: 0

    Smog harms people relatively quickly and we can & have proved that scientifically. So

    25% of LA Smog comes from China (scientifically proven), so where is Obama's concern for California's citizens health by insisting on rapid change in China?

    1. Re:Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by itzly · · Score: 1

      Why should China care about California's citizens ? If you want them to make rapid change, you need to offer something in return.

    2. Re:Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by Kadagan+AU · · Score: 1

      Can we offer them California?

      --
      This space for rent, inquire within.
    3. Re:Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smog harms people relatively quickly and we can & have proved that scientifically. So

      25% of LA Smog comes from China (scientifically proven), so where is Obama's concern for California's citizens health by insisting on rapid change in China?

      Thanks to the multi-billion (trillion) dollar carbon credit scam, your worries are baseless, as all those smog producers are carbon neutral. As for climate change.... tends to happen when your main star gets older and heats up >.>

    4. Re:Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Well, not bombing their country is a start. That's how America works, right?

    5. Re:Health? Where's the Prez on LA Smog? by radl33t · · Score: 1

      No need to insist China do anything, they are most rapidly greening economy on earth. They installed 40GW of wind and solar last year. Their 5 year plan will install as much wind and solar as the rest of the world combined (unless India grows serious about their plan).

  15. Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

    I have to applaud the focus on adaptation over mitigation. These changes are happening or likely, now what can we do to adapt. The other response of trying to drastically cut CO2 emissions to avoid or reduce climate change lacks two of the most important pieces of information required to evaluate it. How much does our reduction of CO2 emission mitigate future change, and what is the reduced cost of adaptation? Without knowing those two pieces, the decision to reduce CO2 emissions to 'save future dollars' is a blind guess, and there are a lot of much, much better reasons to reduce dependency on oil from places like the ME.

    I know someone is going to jump in and claim we DO know the impact of increasing/reducing our CO2 emissions in the future. I say that the current research papers confirm the opposite, even the IPCC's latest paper. We've done lots of modelling of temperature change, but have badly neglected the energy balance. You know, the actual energy in versus out of the atmosphere that is the ACTUAL greenhouse affect that CO2 functions on. Luckily we started measuring observations by satellite in the late 80s.The ERBS and CERES programs from NASA have given us direct measurements of trends in the overall energy balance at the edge of space. The most direct measurement of global warming that we can have. The summary from each program, has let us find a decade level average energy imbalance, and we've found it is in good or at least general agreement with energy levels measured via Ocean Heat Content observations.

    Here's the important bit though. As the IPCC's most recent AR has observed, the satellite measurements show that for the duration of the CERES project, there has been NO TREND in the energy imbalance. The earlier ERBS data showed the same as well. Our satellite measurements have shown significant and very steady trends in energy balance cycling monthly, but the average over the years and decades we've measured is just a steady and consistent average neither shifting noticeably up or down. Meanwhile, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere over that same time have climbed like nobody's business. All our models and expectation for X degrees of warming for so much CO2 kinda hinges pretty heavy on CO2 pushing up the energy imbalance. If it's not, and observations suggest that. We may not need to be so worried as some of the panic ridden crowd wants. That said, we DO still have an annual energy imbalance adding energy to the planet, it just has been adding as much last year, as it did the year before, on back through to 2000. Even though in 2000 CO2 concentrations were lower, the imbalance just hasn't changed. We are thus facing increasing energy(general warming), but thus far our direct measurements can't detect the difference our increasing CO2 concentrations are making.

    Before I get citation needed shoved down my throat, here's a peer reviewed journal article published in Geophysical Research Letters. It is comparing observed atmosphere energy imbalance to the CMIP5 model runs. It finds good agreement, but also makes the very notable observation that the energy imbalance trend is dominated by volcanic activity(ie NOT the CO2 levels that are higher than they've been in millenia). Full abstract:
    Observational analyses of running 5 year ocean heat content trends (Ht) and net downward top of atmosphere radiation (N) are significantly correlated (r~0.6) from 1960 to 1999, but a spike in Ht in the early 2000s is likely spurious since it is inconsistent with estimates of N from both satellite observations and climate model simulations. Variations in N between 1960 and 2000 were dominated by volcanic eruptions and are well simulated by the ensemble mean of coupled models from the Fifth Coupled Model Intercomparison Project (CMIP5). We find an observation-based reduction in N of 0.31±0.21Wm2 between 1999 and 2005 that potentially contributed to the recent warming slowdown, but the relative roles of external forcing and internal variability remain unclear. While present-day anomalies of N in

    1. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I have to applaud the focus on adaptation over mitigation.

      It seems to me like an uncontrollable compulsion to clap is some sort of psychological or physiological problem...

      I know someone is going to jump in and claim we DO know the impact of increasing/reducing our CO2 emissions in the future. I say that the current research papers confirm the opposite, even the IPCC's latest paper.

      We know that it will cause systems to be more chaotic, which will require more costly adaptation. That's reason enough for mitigation.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Adaptation is a form of mitigation.

    3. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      How much does our reduction of CO2 emission mitigate future change, and what is the reduced cost of adaptation? Without knowing those two pieces, the decision to reduce CO2 emissions to 'save future dollars' is a blind guess, and there are a lot of much, much better reasons to reduce dependency on oil from places like the ME.

      That not knowing what the future effects of increased CO2 goes both ways. It could be that they will be worse than what we currently think they will be as easily as it could be they won't be as bad. One fundamental principle of risk management is the less you know about what a risk entails the more value their is in avoiding that risk. Yes, it might cost a lot of money to mitigate future climate change but not mitigating could cost more than any amount of money can cure.

      Here's the important bit though. As the IPCC's most recent AR has observed, the satellite measurements show that for the duration of the CERES project, there has been NO TREND in the energy imbalance.

      Unless the energy imbalance is zero the temperature is still changing. Increasing CO2 does not necessarily cause a change in the energy imbalance number. As CO2 increases it retains more heat energy but since the Earth is hotter it also radiates more heat so the actual imbalance may remain the same.

    4. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      That not knowing what the future effects of increased CO2 goes both ways. It could be that they will be worse than what we currently think they will be as easily as it could be they won't be as bad. One fundamental principle of risk management is the less you know about what a risk entails the more value their is in avoiding that risk. Yes, it might cost a lot of money to mitigate future climate change but not mitigating could cost more than any amount of money can cure.

      Seriously? You are arguing the urgency of taking action is HIGHER the more ignorant we are?

      Here's the important bit though. As the IPCC's most recent AR has observed, the satellite measurements show that for the duration of the CERES project, there has been NO TREND in the energy imbalance.

      Unless the energy imbalance is zero the temperature is still changing. Increasing CO2 does not necessarily cause a change in the energy imbalance number. As CO2 increases it retains more heat energy but since the Earth is hotter it also radiates more heat so the actual imbalance may remain the same.

      If you are correct, and the increase to energy imbalance from pushing CO2 concentrations up cancels that quickly from the increased temperature(nearly within the year), then you are advocating for an even lower impact from CO2 concentration increases than anybody I know of.

      For reference, the actual data gives us the following pictures.
      From ERBS, the papers from NASA and others assessing the energy imbalance from it come up with an average annual imbalance from about '89 through '99, I forget the number but it's about 0.6W/m^2 depending your method of error corrections. That is the best guess for the imbalance each year from 89 through 99, with no real noted difference or trend in the time frame, so a flat line of steadily gaining energy. Meanwhile CO2 concentrations(Mauna Loa) in 1989 were 353ppm and by 1999 were 368ppm, so a 4% increase in CO2 made no detectable increase to energy imbalance. Same story for the following CERES program from 2000 through to today. The IPCC observed in AR5 that there is very likely NO TREND to the energy imbalance since 2000, yet CO2 has gone from 369ppm in 2000 to 397ppm in 2013. A 7.6% increase from 2000 to 2013 left no noticeable trend in the energy imbalance. Or more telling still the increase in CO2 from 1989 to 2013 was more than 12% while the energy imbalance shows us no observable trend in either satellite observation over that same time frame.

      So you could spend billions getting our CO2 concentrations back to 1989 levels and find that based on our satellite records, the energy imbalance wouldn't change a bit and we'd just have that much less money to spend on adapting to rising temperatures.

    5. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Adaptation is a form of mitigation.

      In IPCC parlance adaptation is used to reference measures to adapt to changes to the climate. The word mitigation on the other hand is reserved for efforts to reduce the actual amount of change that will occur to the climate.

    6. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      I know someone is going to jump in and claim we DO know the impact of increasing/reducing our CO2 emissions in the future. I say that the current research papers confirm the opposite, even the IPCC's latest paper.

      We know that it will cause systems to be more chaotic, which will require more costly adaptation. That's reason enough for mitigation.

      We know more energy will cause systems to be more chaotic. We don't know how much a given reduction in human CO2 emissions will reduce the energy imbalance. We don't know HOW costly the difference in adaptation is for that unknown change in energy imbalance. I'm not seeing a strong reason here to advocate for CO2 reductions over adaptation unless the CO2 reductions are really cheap, which no meaningful ones are.

    7. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      Seriously? You are arguing the urgency of taking action is HIGHER the more ignorant we are?

      Sure. If you know what the danger is you can figure out what to do to prepare for it. If you don't know what the danger is you have no idea how to prepare for it and it's probably better to avoid it. Simply assuming that if you don't know how bad something may be that it won't be that bad is like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

      If you are correct, and the increase to energy imbalance from pushing CO2 concentrations up cancels that quickly from the increased temperature(nearly within the year), then you are advocating for an even lower impact from CO2 concentration increases than anybody I know of.

      It sounds to me what you're talking about is the total forcing from CO2, not the energy imbalance. Your number for energy imbalance is about right, what I get from a 2012 paper by James Hansen, et. al is 0.58 W/m^2. But the the total additional forcing from human added greenhouse gases is about 2.9 W/m^2.

      As long as the energy imbalance is greater than zero the Earth will continue to heat up. If the energy imbalance remains the same while CO2 increases that just means the temperature the Earth has to reach to again have energy balance is higher still. If the Earth is getting closer to energy balance the number would be going down, not remaining the same.

    8. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      Seriously? You are arguing the urgency of taking action is HIGHER the more ignorant we are?

      Sure. If you know what the danger is you can figure out what to do to prepare for it. If you don't know what the danger is you have no idea how to prepare for it and it's probably better to avoid it. Simply assuming that if you don't know how bad something may be that it won't be that bad is like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

      If you want to argue for 'playing things safe' that's exactly my point. With what we currently don't know, we could spend billions on reducing CO2 emissions, and make little noticeable difference to future conditions. We could spend those same billions on dykes, irrigation and water management to deal with the warming that we DO know is coming. You seem to think we should gamble on being able to make a difference with reducing our CO2 emissions, I'm saying let's have some better info before risking wasting dollars we could really use to deal with changes.

      If you are correct, and the increase to energy imbalance from pushing CO2 concentrations up cancels that quickly from the increased temperature(nearly within the year), then you are advocating for an even lower impact from CO2 concentration increases than anybody I know of.

      It sounds to me what you're talking about is the total forcing from CO2, not the energy imbalance. Your number for energy imbalance is about right, what I get from a 2012 paper by James Hansen, et. al is 0.58 W/m^2. But the the total additional forcing from human added greenhouse gases is about 2.9 W/m^2.

      As long as the energy imbalance is greater than zero the Earth will continue to heat up. If the energy imbalance remains the same while CO2 increases that just means the temperature the Earth has to reach to again have energy balance is higher still. If the Earth is getting closer to energy balance the number would be going down, not remaining the same.

      You need to read more closely, the numbers for total radiation coming into the atmosphere and leaving are in the hundreds, and the net difference is near zero. The impact of greenhouse gases, like human forced ones are the 2.9 W/m^2 you reference, are but of a bigger whole. That is meaning without the 2.9W/m^2 from our human emissions we'd be facing a much bigger imbalance, but in the opposite direction around -2.5W/m^2. If gaining energy at 0.6 is scary, losing it at -2.5 should be even scarier, no? Might really be disappointed in a hundred years if we spend billions to drop temps 3-4 degrees for fear of them warming by 1 or 2.

      Reality would appear to dictate that our actual influence on the energy budget isn't nearly that extreme, as I've pointed out twice already. The entire time our contribution(forcing from human GHGs) has been rising steadily, the energy imbalance has remained oblivious to that, or at least hasn't changed to an extent that we have the precision to measure yet. More good news, if you look at the energy balance reconstructions and studies that have been done, the biggest historic forcings on the energy balance have been volcanoes. What's the good news? Well, the energy imbalance corrects itself back to were it left of in a very short time, and very close to were it left off, over and over again. That's pretty good evidence that natural forcings, like the poorly modeled and understood GHG known as water vapor, act heavily to drive the energy imbalance back to equilibrium when faced with an external forcing like volcanoes. That's good news because we can look for signals that those same natural forcings might affect CO2. We'd then expect to see an energy imbalance that doesn't run away in the face of continually increasing human GHG forcings... You know, exactly like what we are seeing.

    9. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      If you want to argue for 'playing things safe' that's exactly my point. With what we currently don't know, we could spend billions on reducing CO2 emissions, and make little noticeable difference to future conditions. We could spend those same billions on dykes, irrigation and water management to deal with the warming that we DO know is coming. You seem to think we should gamble on being able to make a difference with reducing our CO2 emissions, I'm saying let's have some better info before risking wasting dollars we could really use to deal with changes.

      Do you seriously expect future conditions to remain the same if CO2 in the atmosphere continues to rise and oceans continue to acidify? We may not know exactly what's going to happen but it will be very different than the relatively stable climate we've built our civilization on over the last 6,000+ years. Are you willing to bet the farm it won't be that bad?

      You need to read more closely, the numbers for total radiation coming into the atmosphere and leaving are in the hundreds, and the net difference is near zero.

      Yes, the insolation at the top of atmosphere (where they measure the imbalance) is around 1360 W/m^2. With a 0.58 W/m^2 energy imbalance the energy exiting the Earth is 1359.42 W/m^2. Doesn't sound like much but the area of the disk of the Earth facing the Sun is 128 trillion m^2 so the total imbalance is about 74 Terawatts (or 74 million Megawatts). A Watt is defined as 1 joule/second so that's 74 Terajoules/second. And that continues 24/7/365, it's going to add up.

      That is meaning without the 2.9W/m^2 from our human emissions we'd be facing a much bigger imbalance, but in the opposite direction around -2.5W/m^2.

      If that 2.9 W/m^2 dropped to zero then the energy imbalance would also drop to zero once the Earth was again in energy balance. It wouldn't go negative. If we just held the additional forcing at 2.9 W/m^2 instead of increasing it by adding more CO2 the Earth would eventually reach a new equilibrium (at a higher temperature) and the imbalance would drop to zero again.

      Reality would appear to dictate that our actual influence on the energy budget isn't nearly that extreme, as I've pointed out twice already. The entire time our contribution (forcing from human GHGs) has been rising steadily, the energy imbalance has remained oblivious to that, or at least hasn't changed to an extent that we have the precision to measure yet

      As long as the energy imbalance is greater than zero temperatures will continue to rise.

    10. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      If you want to argue for 'playing things safe' that's exactly my point. With what we currently don't know, we could spend billions on reducing CO2 emissions, and make little noticeable difference to future conditions. We could spend those same billions on dykes, irrigation and water management to deal with the warming that we DO know is coming. You seem to think we should gamble on being able to make a difference with reducing our CO2 emissions, I'm saying let's have some better info before risking wasting dollars we could really use to deal with changes.

      Do you seriously expect future conditions to remain the same if CO2 in the atmosphere continues to rise and oceans continue to acidify? We may not know exactly what's going to happen but it will be very different than the relatively stable climate we've built our civilization on over the last 6,000+ years. Are you willing to bet the farm it won't be that bad?

      I'm willing to rely on the scientific method and data collection to make best guesses at what impact it will have on the future. Then from that data making decisions that are sensible based on that data. Right now, catastrophe is strongly counter to observations and so your desire to panic is uncalled for. The cost/benefit of reducing our contribution is still very, very poorly known, but we do know that preparation measures are called for so we should start that before pouring dollars at 'solution' we know neither the cost nor value of.

      You need to read more closely, the numbers for total radiation coming into the atmosphere and leaving are in the hundreds, and the net difference is near zero.

      Yes, the insolation at the top of atmosphere (where they measure the imbalance) is around 1360 W/m^2. With a 0.58 W/m^2 energy imbalance the energy exiting the Earth is 1359.42 W/m^2. Doesn't sound like much but the area of the disk of the Earth facing the Sun is 128 trillion m^2 so the total imbalance is about 74 Terawatts (or 74 million Megawatts). A Watt is defined as 1 joule/second so that's 74 Terajoules/second. And that continues 24/7/365, it's going to add up.

      That is meaning without the 2.9W/m^2 from our human emissions we'd be facing a much bigger imbalance, but in the opposite direction around -2.5W/m^2.

      If that 2.9 W/m^2 dropped to zero then the energy imbalance would also drop to zero once the Earth was again in energy balance. It wouldn't go negative. If we just held the additional forcing at 2.9 W/m^2 instead of increasing it by adding more CO2 the Earth would eventually reach a new equilibrium (at a higher temperature) and the imbalance would drop to zero again.

      That's not how physics works. With a human contribution of 2.9 @/m2 and net imbalance when including natural forcings of 0.6W/m2, the natural system already has balanced all but 0.6W/M2 of our 2.9W/m2 contribution at current temps.

      Reality would appear to dictate that our actual influence on the energy budget isn't nearly that extreme, as I've pointed out twice already. The entire time our contribution (forcing from human GHGs) has been rising steadily, the energy imbalance has remained oblivious to that, or at least hasn't changed to an extent that we have the precision to measure yet

      As long as the energy imbalance is greater than zero temperatures will continue to rise.

      Correct, that's the 101 portion. The next question is at what rate should we expect the rise to be. From a constant energy balance as we've seen since 1980 in Sat observations we should expect a linear increasing temperature. If you go look at the IPCC's fifth assessment report, you can look at the models long term projections all the way to 2300 in Chapter 12. If you go to the section on energy budget, you can see where each of the

    11. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Dammit, Jim! I'm a risk management professional, not a climate scientist!

    12. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      That's not how physics works. With a human contribution of 2.9 @/m2 and net imbalance when including natural forcings of 0.6W/m2, the natural system already has balanced all but 0.6W/M2 of our 2.9W/m2 contribution at current temps.

      I think it is you who doesn't understand how physics works. The energy imbalance is a function of the change in forcing over time (dF/dT), not the forcing itself. If forcing didn't change the energy imbalance would be zero. That the energy imbalance isn't changing is just evidence that forcing continues to increase due to the anthropogenic rise in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

    13. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      That's not how physics works. With a human contribution of 2.9 @/m2 and net imbalance when including natural forcings of 0.6W/m2, the natural system already has balanced all but 0.6W/M2 of our 2.9W/m2 contribution at current temps.

      I think it is you who doesn't understand how physics works. The energy imbalance is a function of the change in forcing over time (dF/dT), not the forcing itself. If forcing didn't change the energy imbalance would be zero. That the energy imbalance isn't changing is just evidence that forcing continues to increase due to the anthropogenic rise in greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.

      The energy imbalance is NOT a function of change in forcing over time. The energy imbalance is the energy leaving the earth at the top of the atmosphere subtracted from the energy entering. Forcings are anything that works to change the energy imbalance over time. The energy imbalance doesn't care about how we model or measure the changes to the atmosphere and climate system. The physics it operates under is energy from the sun trapped in versus what is reflected or otherwise bled off. GHG's like CO2 all work to absorb that radiation and help decrease the radiation out number.

      Forcings, like our emissions of GHGs, work on the simple principle of increasing concentrations of gases that then absorb more energy. There are many calculations for what overall impact our emissions have had, one estimate as you say is a net contribution of trapping an additional 2.9 W/m^2. Subtract that concentration of gases we've contributed to absorb 2.9 W/m^2 and that much extra energy escapes, by definition. That moves the energy imbalance down by 2.9 W/m^2, by definition.

    14. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I think we're using two different definitions for forcing and researching the matter doesn't really clear it up very well. I was using forcing in the sense that the 280 ppm of CO2 that was in the atmosphere before the recent rise is a forcing and by adding more CO2 we've increase the forcing. A quote from a 2005 paper "Earth's Energy Imbalance: Confirmation and Implications". by James Hansen, et. al. supports this:

      The largest forcing is due to well-mixed greenhouse gases (GHGs)—CO2, CH4, N2O, CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons)—and other trace gases, totaling 2.75 W/m^2 in 2003 relative to the 1880 value (Table 1).

      Notice the paper says "2.75 W/m^2 in 2003 relative to the 1880 value" which implies they're taking existing natural forcing into account. But I can see where you might consider forcing to mean just that part that's over and above the exiting natural forcing that preexisted anthropogenic climate change.

      Also I don't think your math of subtracting the current anthropogenic forcing of 2.9 W/m^2 from the energy imbalance in valid. In the first place if the 2.9 W/m^2 forcing is relative to sometime in the 1800's then we've already realized a fair amount of the warming it caused so the energy imbalance is from only the part of that forcing that hasn't been realized yet, not the whole 2.9 W/m^2. To me that implies if the energy imbalance continues to remain the same over time then the forcing must be increasing to keep the imbalance going. Otherwise the energy imbalance would cause temperatures to eventually catch up to the existing forcing (natural and anthropogenic) reducing the imbalance to zero.

      The only way we could reduce the anthropogenic forcing of 2.9 W/m^2 is by reducing the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. If all we did was stop emitting CO2 the excess that we've added would remain and the anthropogenic forcing would still exist.

    15. Re:Adaptation versus Mitigation by BCGlorfindel · · Score: 1

      I think we're using two different definitions for forcing and researching the matter doesn't really clear it up very well. I was using forcing in the sense that the 280 ppm of CO2 that was in the atmosphere before the recent rise is a forcing and by adding more CO2 we've increase the forcing. A quote from a 2005 paper "Earth's Energy Imbalance: Confirmation and Implications". by James Hansen, et. al. supports this:

      The largest forcing is due to well-mixed greenhouse gases (GHGs)—CO2, CH4, N2O, CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons)—and other trace gases, totaling 2.75 W/m^2 in 2003 relative to the 1880 value (Table 1).

      Notice the paper says "2.75 W/m^2 in 2003 relative to the 1880 value" which implies they're taking existing natural forcing into account. But I can see where you might consider forcing to mean just that part that's over and above the exiting natural forcing that preexisted anthropogenic climate change.

      Also I don't think your math of subtracting the current anthropogenic forcing of 2.9 W/m^2 from the energy imbalance in valid. In the first place if the 2.9 W/m^2 forcing is relative to sometime in the 1800's then we've already realized a fair amount of the warming it caused so the energy imbalance is from only the part of that forcing that hasn't been realized yet, not the whole 2.9 W/m^2. To me that implies if the energy imbalance continues to remain the same over time then the forcing must be increasing to keep the imbalance going. Otherwise the energy imbalance would cause temperatures to eventually catch up to the existing forcing (natural and anthropogenic) reducing the imbalance to zero.

      The only way we could reduce the anthropogenic forcing of 2.9 W/m^2 is by reducing the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. If all we did was stop emitting CO2 the excess that we've added would remain and the anthropogenic forcing would still exist.

      The measure and notion of forcings as applies to computer simulations like the Hansen paper can be confusing when applied/translated to immediate conditions at a point in time. As you note in your quote, the 2.75 number is the impact from the total change in GHG's(not just CO2, nor just human emitted GHG's) from 1880 through 2003. Hansen later notes the overall forcing(not just GHG) from 1880 through 2003:
      The net change of effective forcing between 1880 and 2003 is +1.8 W/m2

      I'm going to reference the +1.8W/M^2 for my prior example, because Hansen does the same later so it's easier to verify against his own words. With a net increase in forcing from 1880 to 2003 of +1.8, and with a imbalance today between 0.5 and 1 we can work out what has already been responded to and what has not. For ease of use, let's pick(as Hansen does) a current imbalance of 0.8W/M^2. In that case, the planet has already responded to 1W/m^2 of the forcing and has 0.8W/m^2 to go. Alternatively to state it as I did earlier, if we returned our atmospheric conditions to 1880 but at our current global temperatures, we'd see the energy imbalance drop by 1.8W/M^2, or a net -1W/m^2, and we'd be forcing ourselves back to an 1880 equilibrium. Hansen says the same thing in different words in your article :
      This imbalance is consistent with the total forcing of +1.8 W/m2 relative to that in 1880 and climate sensitivity of +2/3-C per W/m2. The observed 1880 to 2003 global warming is 0.6- to 0.7-C (11, 22), which is the full response to nearly 1 W/m2 of forcing. Of the 1.8 W/m2 forcing, 0.85 W/m2 remains.

      That is all to say that forcings are just measures of changes to the green house effect from one time to another, mostly used in climate simulations as a means to test and understand the workings of the underlying system. If removing XX W/m^2 of forcing from a simulation instantly and with no other changes DOESN'T shift the energy balance the exact same amount, then the underlying basic physi

  16. Straw Man Avoidance by Jodka · · Score: 1

    The late jazz critic Whitney Balliet wrote, "All first-rate criticism first defines what we are confronting."

    With that in mind, perhaps the AGW alarmists would be willing to confront popular criticisms of their ideology, as opposed to making the usual straw man arguments.

    "Climate Change Is Real. Too Bad Accurate Climate Models Aren’t." would be a good starting place.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    1. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by Brett+Buck · · Score: 1

      But of course, if you dismiss climate models, there is *no evidence at all* for global warming. Just say it a religious or political movement and be done with it.

    2. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by itzly · · Score: 1

      Not that graph again....

      http://blog.hotwhopper.com/201...

    3. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by itzly · · Score: 1

      You don't need a model to see there's global warming. You can do that simply by making observations.

    4. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "Climate Change Is Real. Too Bad Accurate Climate Models Arenâ(TM)t." would be a good starting place.

      It's not a good starting place. Change is expensive. If climate change is real but the models aren't accurate, that's more frightening, not reassuring: because it means that more changes are coming, but we don't even know what they will be. That messes up the spreadsheets something fierce.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read your link. It's idiotic; not just wrong but also really, really stupid.

      The climate models are wrong because they mispredict the slope of the warming curve. What matters is the rate of divergence between the slopes of the empirical curve and the predicted curves. The choice of baseline is completely irrelevant and you are giving an argument about baselines.

      Your achievement here has been to further associate the AGW alarmist movement with stupid, disingenuous, argumentation. Everyone can now point to you and your link and laugh and say, "boy these AGW types are real dummies, too retarded to understand the difference between a slope and an offset. Why would anyone listen to such dopes?"

      So thanks for advancing the cause of debunking yourself a bit.

    6. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      The late jazz critic Whitney Balliet wrote, "All first-rate criticism first defines what we are confronting."

      With that in mind, perhaps the AGW alarmists would be willing to confront popular criticisms of their ideology, as opposed to making the usual straw man arguments.

      "Climate Change Is Real. Too Bad Accurate Climate Models Aren’t." would be a good starting place.

      That graph by Roy Spencer has a huge problem in that all of the traces he shows of climate model runs and the HADCRUT and UAH temperature series all start from the same zero point in 1983. In order to achieve that Spencer had to shift all of the graphed lines up or down so they all lined up at 0 in 1983. That is not a valid scientific technique and makes the whole graph bogus.

    7. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      That graph by Roy Spencer has a huge problem in that all of the traces he shows of climate model runs and the HADCRUT and UAH temperature series all start from the same zero point in 1983. In order to achieve that Spencer had to shift all of the graphed lines up or down so they all lined up at 0 in 1983. That is not a valid scientific technique and makes the whole graph bogus.

      You're not helping your side when you assert that the various models don't agree with each other or reality at any point since 1983. If the graph lines were shifted to match up in '83, that means that they didn't agree with each other then....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 1

      Um, no you can't. The entirety of human existence is insignificant in terms of geologic time. Much less the time since the invention of the calibrated thermometer or the deployment of the same throughout the biosphere. Then there is the problem of establishing causal relationships, since we all learned, or at least should have, in our first high school science class that correlation has zero probative value. There is nothing "simple" about the real physical world.

    9. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Where do the slopes diverge? They're practically on top of each other, unless you want to try the old "atmospheric vs. oceanic warming" argument...care for a go?

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    10. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      I think it's your expectation of what agreeing with each other means that needs adjustment. Based on my understanding of the limitations and expectations of climate models they agree with each other and with observations pretty well over the long run.

    11. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It means that more changes are coming" is only true if you assume the models are off in one direction. It could also mean that less changes are coming, if they're wrong in the other direction.

    12. Re:Straw Man Avoidance by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      "It means that more changes are coming" is only true if you assume the models are off in one direction.

      All the plausible models agree that changes are coming, they only disagree on what they are. So no, no that's not the case.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. Climate change poisons family of 8 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is the causality chain:
    1. Climate Change extorts inefficient electricity methods (solar and wind).
    2. Non competitive technology is sponsored by higher electricity rate.
    3. Unable to afford these rates the family of 8 uses gas generator.
    4. The event gets into the news.

    On the related note, without this nonsensical "renewable" fashion, we can have dirt cheap electricity. Cheap energy is the key to the host of other problems such as water shortages in California.

  18. so for the rest of the world... by nimbius · · Score: 1

    If you're outside the united states, it may or may not be common knowledge but our news media at the behest of our corporate interests have invested a considerable amount of time and effort into insisting climate change is a "controversy" with no clear proof of existance or scientific concensus. So our scientific institutions embarked on a bold quest to insist upon the public that it is a big deal and is being caused by human activity. That didnt go so well, and after considerably more campaign investment and push from large corporations our congressmen and senators as well as random members of state legal communities such as district attorneys began to directly target researchers and agencies conducting research into climate change in a break neck attempt to keep anyone from knowing about this or attempting to understand it. Florida for example has an unspoken rule by the legislature that climate change isnt to be so much as used as a phrase in reports, or media events. people have lost their jobs for it and researchers have come under prosecution for it.

    So Americans arent stupid about this, but we are easily influenced as our news agencies operate for-profit, and corporations know this. The important thing to remember is that this president, Barack Obama, is the first in a lineage of nearly a dozen to openly come out and say that Climate change is man-made, and is actually hurting people. He can do this partly because he cant run for another term, but also because its always been his position and for us, its kind of a big deal. Its hard to refute fox news or cnn, they'll always have their fanboys, but when the president says hes relying on NASA and science to make these statements, there arent many of us that have a problem with it.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:so for the rest of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, the state controls the news. The media is full of propaganda and false news. In the past (when that documentary was made) the state had to at least plausibly believe the propaganda they used against citizens but thanks to a 2013 amendment to the Smith Mundt Act the US government is free to use even completely bogus propaganda against its citizens. So, think about it a bit more with this understanding: Now, did the media up and decide to push the climate change agenda in news and fund the bogus research, or did the state do so?

      If you don't know about the depopulation agenda, then you should go educate yourself.

    2. Re:so for the rest of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ii9zGFDtc

      Merchants of Doubt is exposing what the media and dirty energy industry has been doing over the past decade or two to make this a political fight and delay, confuse, stall, and stop.

  19. Americans saying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama is full of shit and can go fuck himself.

  20. No! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No,it's dumb Americans who are causing Climate Change!

  21. Well let's do a quick check of the credentials: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm, undergraduate degree in political science, and Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law. Nothing about Obama receiving a natural science or environmental sciences. I doubt the guy even knows what the scientific method is, so sure I guess we should just take his word for it!

    I use to remember when they called these guys snake oil salesmen, but now I'm sure the media will be all falling all over themselves to get the next sound bite from this. I'm sorry but when you try to get a celebrity to be your spokesman for something they have no background in the subject matter, you just make your argument sound that much weaker.

  22. And IF GOP get's back in power this will be the ne by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And IF GOP get's back in power this will be the new pre existing condition. Hell soon the only doctor that cover all will be the ER and for the stuff they don't cover by law the jail / prison must step up.

  23. Unreal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Couldn't be from industrial waste and pollution. Couldn't be from lack of exercise poor education and nutrition. Preservatives and an ungodly amount of high-fructous sugars. No way! Corporations are all about the economy. Why they issues statements on social issues! Obama says so.

    Last month, Climate Change help created ISIS.

    Trust the government. They are busily killing people to preserve your right to consume products, from allowing Corporations to offshore labor and capital to produce higher profit margins to enrich a small minority. Who has a better record of mass murder than government? Nobody.

  24. Surrounded by dry kindling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It has always been surrounded by dry kindling. It is just before LA grew that kindling burned more frequently. Now it burns less frequently but more catastrophically, but burn it will.

  25. For anything you should keep it reasonable by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    Because if you start exaggerating and making shit up, it makes people listen to you less. The whole "boy who cried wolf" thing. If you keep saying doom is coming and it never comes, well then people are going to quit listening to you even if you are right one time.

    Also it leads people to question your legit, non-exaggerated points. I mean after all, if the problem you are talking about really is so bad, why the need to make shit up? Is it really so bad if you have to exaggerate what you say? If you exaggerated this thing, how do we know you aren't exaggerating more?

    The best thing is to keep it truthful. No, people won't always be interested in listening or in doing what you ask, but that's life. If you want to have any credibility long term and have hope of being listened to, you need to be truthful. Let people truthfully know the problems they will face and show them when they are facing them. Ya, it'll probably have to get to be a bigger problem before people fix it, that is how humans tend to operate.

    1. Re:For anything you should keep it reasonable by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Funny

      "If you like your allergies, you can keep your allergies."

    2. Re:For anything you should keep it reasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dont see that happening to Republicans and the blind haters of Obama.

      Remember death panels? did that ever materialize?

      How about Obama taking away all your guns? Did that happen?

      How about Obama and the Fed causing runaway inflation because of deficits and QE?

      How about how Benghazi was all a conspiracy? A subcommittee report (with Republican majority) said there was no evidence of wrongdoing.

      I dont think Fox News and conservatives have lost any credibility with all the crap they have been spewing.

    3. Re:For anything you should keep it reasonable by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Climate change has a larger population including a lot of more moderate people. It isn't just Right vs Left. There are a lot of people who are just sick of hearing that everything that we do is bad. Climate change evidence is only really shown in complex statistical numbers. Where I live this winter was cold, last summer was very mild.... There isn't smog and a lot of fresh air... It doesn't look like I am getting affected by it.

      Oddly enough Bush Jr. was the best president to slow down global warming.
      He caused gas prices to shoot way up, so people needed to find more fuel efficient cars.
      Threw the population into a great recession meaning people will not have as much access to burn carbon.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:For anything you should keep it reasonable by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Are you arguing in favor of people who disbelieve science because it makes them feel ashamed for living selfishly? Wow.

  26. Somebody didn't tell him the REAL data is out. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oops, somebody didn't tell him the REAL data is out and there isn't any concern.

    I suppose he has to keep the pony show going to keep up job creation even though the real science is emerging.

    Nice to have such a dishonest president, isn't it?

  27. Re:Cue in the Slashdot crowd. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1, Funny

    Actually, I make $75k/year and have a broad array of skills ranging from multiple IT disciplines to diplomatic, scientific, and psychiatric disciplines, so I'm definitely more qualified than politicians to comment on what climate scientists know.

  28. This is why climate change gets a bad rap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Every time you blame mismanagement of lands or confuse consequences of proliferation of human structures or cherry pick fluctuations of climate the more people tune out and stop listening.

    There can't be one nebulous term "climate change" that means any change regardless because that confuses the heck out of everyone and gives politicians way too much space to spew baseless nonsense and confuse people.

    Good example. Every year we are treated to leaders of poor south American and African countries bitching at the UN about the consequences of mismanaging their own lands while invoking the extremely convenient excuse "climate change".

    Enough political bullshit.

  29. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by RingDev · · Score: 1

    There's a moving picture going on and this conversation is focusing on 1 frame.

    The EPA is currently wrapped up in litigation over their legal authority to regulate CO2 emissions. One of the current arguments being put forward by the coal industry lobby is that even if AGW is real, it isn't having any immediate and measurable impact on the health of Americans. If there's no health concerns, then there's no reason fro the EPA to regulate.

    So the President goes out and makes a statement, backed up by multiple research papers (someone posted links above if you're interested in digging into them and debating their merit), that say that no, in fact, AGW/AGCC is having a direct impact on the health of Americans.

    Out of context, it seems like an odd thing to go on the stump about, but in the context of the EPA/coal industry court battles, it makes sense as the feds are trying to ensure the EPA retains it's legal authority to regulate CO2.

    -Rick

    --
    "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
  30. climate change will save us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What you're all missing is that the turmoil and hardships created by climate change are a natural consequence of the human race becoming to numerous and consuming too much energy. In that regard, the idea that climate change in harming people, perhaps even killing them should be considered a good thing.

    You could never launch an explicit pogrom to cull the human race back to manageable levels but if climate change will kill of the unwanted billions of unnecessary eaters and consumers then more power to it. The fact that only a select few who have the resources to weather (I made a funny) such an event is of little consequences in the larger picture of pruning the human race back to sustainable levels.

    So, carry on, human race, consume energy, fall prey to your own greed and die knowing that the world will be a better place once most of you are gone.

  31. The gov't cannot save us! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before we go about handing over our lives to the government so that they can save us from our inevitable doom that is AGW, let's think about how well the government has done in solving our problems before. A few examples:
    - War on drugs, trillions spent and millions in prison and people are still able to buy any drug they want
    - War on poverty, we still have poor people
    - Federal school funding, they more they spend the worse our schools get
    - Federal energy policy, an entire cabinet level agency devoted to making the USA energy independent and our reliance on foreign sources of energy has only increased

    We need to get the government out of the saving the world business and instead get out of the way of people doing what might actually solve the problems. We have people that tell us they can build nuclear reactors that can produce power, desalinate water, and even destroy nuclear waste from older reactors. All while being cheaper than current oil and coal. What is stopping them? Government regulation.

    I'm sure the first thing that someone will bring up is the evils of nuclear radiation. I'm not likely to convince everyone that new nuclear reactor designs will not melt down and explode like old designs so I'll take it from another angle. AGW is killing the world. Even if we have a Chernobyl level event which evacuates a 30 mile radius of area we'd be saving billions of people from the hazards of AGW. Put some nuclear reactors in the desert where they won't hurt anyone if their top blows and get some cheap energy to run desalination plants so California can drink clean water. We can choose between the inevitable AGW or the unlikely and much more manageable issue of nuclear reactor meltdowns and the radioactive wastes they produce. The meltdowns and waste won't even happen if we do it right.

    Which is it? Nuclear power or AGW doom? I guess there is a third choice, living like "Little House on the Prairie" but I like my air conditioning.

    1. Re:The gov't cannot save us! by PPH · · Score: 1

      Panic ensues. Among the bureaucrats, that is. It is beginning to look like carbon emissions and the resulting temperature rise are becoming uncoupled from economic activity. GNP is going up while emissions remain flat. Natural gas is replacing coal. The Chinese are getting fed up with smog in Beijing. Gas consumption is flat while people drive more and Big Oil can't keep the prices propped up. Etc, etc. And the big government looters have missed the bus. It has all been done by the free market. So the justification for Big Government programs is disappearing. And these people might have to go out and get real jobs.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  32. But we like unreasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most skeptics disagree with run-away Global Warming. Climate Change is not in dispute.
    Most skeptics don't want pollution we just don't agree that CO2 is a pollutant or that it is the primary driver of the climate.

    1. Re:But we like unreasonable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      false

  33. Possible Misinterpretation [Re:wildfires?] by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Perhaps another way to say what he did is that communities and their populations have gradually adapted to their local environment by either infrastructure, or by natural "filtering" whereby those who couldn't tolerate local conditions moved elsewhere.

    What climate change is doing is changing these "familiar" conditions and creating situations that didn't exist or were rarer before per given spot.

    It seems you interpreted his speech as claiming the total "mass" of climate-related problems is increasing. Rather, I interpret it as saying the kinds of problems are being shuffled around from their "usual" spot, catching more unprepared. The total number of cards is roughly the same, but the deck is being shuffled.

    Those used to dry weather may now have more floods. Those used to wet weather may now have more droughts. Those used to warm weather may now have more cold days. Those used to cool weather may now have more sweltering days. Etc.

    1. Re:Possible Misinterpretation [Re:wildfires?] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you add energy to a system it increases the activity in that system. Global warming means that the weather will exhibit more extreme behavior. Hotter hots, colder colds, longer droughts, more rain causing larger floods and yes this also means weather patterns shifting. One interesting element is that the changes don't seem to occur continuously but to take sudden jumps.

    2. Re:Possible Misinterpretation [Re:wildfires?] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And yet, while a nice theory, actual data of total cyclonic activity, droughts, temperature extremes, etc... demonstrates that your hypothesis is false. There is an interesting proof of this, but I can't seem to fit it into the margin...

  34. Rice fields in the desert by bradley13 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Most of California's problems are caused by California."

    This. There are droughts, and periods with lots of rain. That's nature, and has diddly-squat to do with climate change.

    As for the water problems: You do know that the Sacramento Valley is basically pretty arid, getting between 5 and 20 cm of rain per year. And yet, California has 2000 square kilometers of rice fields in this area, using 7 cubic kilometers of water per year for irrigation. Those are the back-of-the-envelope numbers I come up with based on the publicly available information. The almond groves are also reputed to use a whole lot of water, but I haven't run the number for them.

    You can't solve the rainfall problems easily, but if you want to solve the water-availability problems, it's easy: let water be bought and soid like any other commodity. Raising rice in the desert while crying about a water shortage is just brain-dead stupid, and only possible because the cost of the water is kept artificially low by government regulations and subsidies.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
    1. Re:Rice fields in the desert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spot on!!!

    2. Re:Rice fields in the desert by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      http://www.motherjones.com/env...

      California produces 99% of the US' walnuts and almonds, at 5 gallons apiece and 1 gallon apiece, respectively, in addition to a number of other fruits, vegetables, and nuts. Let me repeat that: five gallons of water for a single walnut. Enough water to sustain a person for 5-10 days in an area that is having its most severe drought in decades...in exchange for a single nut. Ridiculous.

      They didn't mention it in that article, but a few months back I saw a number related to all of this: 10% of California's water is going to almonds. Whether it's correct or if I'm recalling correctly, I can't say with certainty, but I remember being blown away by the research when I found it. Don't get me wrong, I love almonds as much as the next guy, but when your state is continuing practices that will be unsustainable in the immediate short-term, it's time to make some changes. We can live without our almond milk. They can't live without water.

    3. Re:Rice fields in the desert by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Add to this the fact that over 80 percent of our agriculture is exported to other nations, and 40 percent of what is left for us is thrown out....

  35. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    This may be the most relevant post in the thread. It all makes sense if you look at it this way.

    Not that politicians have to make sense...

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  36. Stress? by internerdj · · Score: 1

    I know a bunch of people whose blood pressure skyrockets whenever climate change is mentioned...

  37. All politicians are anti-science by alispguru · · Score: 1

    At least when the science doesn't unambiguously support the position they've taken to make their constituents happy.

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
    1. Re:All politicians are anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least when the science doesn't unambiguously support the position they've taken to make their constituents happy.

      At least when the science doesn't unambiguously support the position they've taken to make their campaign donors happy. FTFY

  38. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by TwoEyedJack · · Score: 1

    Congress, you know, the body that passes laws, has explicitly voted to prohibit the EPA from considering CO2 as a pollutant. What we have is an out of control power mad lawless bureaucracy.

  39. This is sure ruffling some tinfoil feathers by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    This statement is mussing the tinfoil of the denialists and other right-wing nutjobs...I hope he does this some more! Trolololol! >:)

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  40. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The problem is that it's a real problem and they're planning to abuse that for political gain. Sadly, these factors are not mutually exclusive.

  41. My lake is higher today than last year by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    Looking at my lake level data, my lake is 10.25" higher today than it was on this day last year. This has resulted in the death of countless vegetative organisms that used to enjoy a life of peace and harmony with nature near the former border of the lake.

    We must do something about climate change before more life is needlessly lost!!!

    1. Re:My lake is higher today than last year by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Before your lake floods the entire continent?

  42. Not as much as he has by FatherOfONe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He has hurt almost everyone in America far far worse than any environmental changes.

    --
    The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
  43. Obama said it... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This means that the left wingers will take it as gospel truth, and the right wingers will deny deny deny. So who is right? We need to elect a government of people who were born after computers were invented.

  44. Claptrap by jlgreer1 · · Score: 1

    More claptrap from this deceitful administrations.

  45. Re:Cue in the Slashdot crowd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, I make $75k/year .

    You big shot you.

    I remember fondly the time when I was making $75k. Every once in a while I'll eat a PB&J for dinner just for the nostalgia.

  46. You might want to recalibrate your slur by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rodeo clown is an important job.
    They divert danger away from cowboys that are temporarily knocked on their ass.

    lazy trolls make Santa so mad he could shit blood.

  47. Re:Cue in the Slashdot crowd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have zero qualifications, just the too-common IT mentality that you know something beyond sql or active domain trade school certifications. I acomplished those feats while in high school before pursuing my PhD in mechanical engineering with an emphasis on turbulent transport modeling, calculus of variations, and physical chemistry. I completed post doctoral experience in oceanic and atmosphere energy transport modeling, and I know earn 60-210% higher salary (2 years, private sector), consulting, enabling fortune 500 companies to mitigate the economic consequences of climate change, mainly by forecasting energy purchasing costs, energy production costs, and modeling (improved) asset and depreciation schedules and leveraging preposterously lucrative regulatory arrangements (financial "engineering"). My clients realize a payback on my talents that is measured in weeks to months, hence the massively increasing billable rates I eluded to above.

  48. Thank you, Mr President by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    "Americans' worsening health"
    can be added to http://whatreallyhappened.com/...
    (Go to the link to find links supporting every item here)

    A (Not Quite) Complete List Of Things Supposedly Caused By Global Warming

    Acne , agricultural land increase , Afghan poppies destroyed , Africa devastated, Africa in conflict, African aid threatened, African summer frost , aggressive weeds , air pressure changes , airport malaria , Agulhas current , Alaska reshaped, moves , allergy season longer , alligators in the Thames , Alps melting , Amazon a desert , American dream end , amphibians breeding earlier (or not) , anaphylactic reactions to bee stings , ancient forests dramatically changed , animals head for the hills, animals shrink , Antarctic grass flourishes , Antarctic ice grows , Antarctic ice shrinks , Antarctic sea life at risk, anxiety treatment , algal blooms , archaeological sites threatened , Arab Spring , Arctic bogs melt , Arctic in bloom , Arctic ice free , Arctic ice melt faster , Arctic lakes disappear , Arctic tundra to burn , Arctic warming (not), Atlantic less salty , Atlantic more salty, atmospheric circulation modified , attack of the killer jellyfish , avalanches reduced , avalanches increased , Baghdad snow , Bahrain under water , bananas grow , barbarisation , beer shortage , beetle infestation , bet for $10,000, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects , billion homeless , billions face risk , billions of deaths , bird distributions change , bird loss accelerating , birds shrinking , bird strikes , bird visitors drop , birds confused , birds decline (Wales) , birds driven north , birds return early , bittern boom ends , blackbirds stop singing , blackbirds threatened , Black Hawk down , blood contaminated , blue mussels return , bluetongue , brain eating amoebae , brains shrink , bridge collapse (Minneapolis), Britain one big city , Britain Siberian , brothels struggle , brown Ireland , bubonic plague , budget increases , Buddhist temple threatened , building collapse , building season extension , bushfires , business opportunities , business risks, butterflies move north, camel deaths , cancer deaths in England,cannibalism, cannibalism again , caterpillar biomass shift, cave paintings threatened , childhood insomnia, Cholera , circumcision in decline , cirrus disappearance , civil unrest , cloud increase , coast beauty spots lost , cockroach migration, coffee threatened , cold climate creatures survive , cold spells (Australia) , cold wave (India) , computer models , conferences , conflict , conflict with Russia , consumers foot the bill , coral bleaching, coral fish suffer , coral reefs dying , coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight, Cabbage Shortage , cost of trillions , cougar attacks, crabgrass menace, cradle of civilisation threatened , creatures move uphill, crime increase , crocodile sex, crops devastated , crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems , curriculum change , cyclones (Australia), danger to kid's health , Darfur , Dartford Warbler plague , death rate increase (US) , deaths to reach 6 million, Dengue hemorrhagic fever , depression , desert advance , desert retreat , destruction of the environment , disappearance of coastal cities, disasters , diseases move from animals to humans , diseases move north , dog disease , Dolomites collapse , dozen deadly diseases , drought, ducks and geese decline , dust bowl in the corn belt , early marriages , early spring , earlier pollen season , Earth biodiversity crisis , Earth dying , Earth even hotter , Earth light dimming , Earth lopsided, Earth melting , Earth morbid fever , Earth on fast track , Earth past point of no return , Earth slowing down , Earth spins faster, Earth to explode,Earth's poles shift, earth upside down , earthquakes , earthquakes redux , earthquakes redux 2 , Egypt revolt , El Niño intensification , end of the world as we know it , erosion , emerging infections, enceph

    --
    -Styopa
  49. Add single payer health care to the mix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Add single payer health care to the mix and you've got the perfect excuse for the government to legislate everything in the name of "health of the American people"

  50. Where's my raise?!? by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    If finding natural gas leaks is important enough to get Google involved, then why am I paid so damned little? I've been doing natural gas leak surveys for nearly 39 years. Google may be able to cover more territory, but I'd bet I'm better than they are. Underground gas leaks don't kill the vegetation (or even discolor it) for a while after they start. I can find them BEFORE they go that long.

    I've found tens of thousands of underground leaks and tens of thousands of above ground leaks, not to mention saving hundreds of lives along with preventing the accompanying property losses.

    You'd think as important as that is, I'd be making well over 100K per year, but I'm far, far below that.

    So where's my raise? Can I get a big Federal grant to pay me to do my job?

  51. Speaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans exhale more green house gasses than they inhale. Someone should remind the President of that before his press conferences. CC the Vice President on those memos too, please.

  52. So bored... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obama is blaming something else on climate change? Apathy rising...

  53. 0bama is an expert on all subjects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As we all know, Barry is a genius when it comes to health care as well as climatology. He's always the smartest person in the room and knows what's best for us. He don't need no stink'in Constitution!

  54. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

    It may well be a health risk, but I can't imagine it's #1 or even a distant #2 or in the top 5 either. (My guess is nutrition, amount of physical activity and mental/emotional stress level are top 3, far above all others.) Since it's not a top factor and certainly not an easily fixable one, why mention it? It's wasting everyone's time, including ours as we are posting here as a consequence instead of doing something useful. :-)

  55. Re:Over exaggeration = fodder to the climate denie by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    Too bad the Supreme Court said the Clean Air Act authorizes the EPA to regulate CO2.

  56. Bull$h!t! by gabrieltss · · Score: 2

    They couldn't get "Man made global warming" to stick with the junk science exposed on it. Then they thought they could fool people by changing it to just "Global warming", now they are calling it "climate change" It's all pushed by the same junk science and the same ultra rich that want your money by making you pay carbon credits/taxes to their "carbon credit bank". They are all just sounding gongs.... Hello Al Gore! We have your number mister criminal!

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
    1. Re:Bull$h!t! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only junk science is the 'science' coming from the Koch brothers and others like them that feel that they should be able to pollute at will without having to be responsible for their actions. Do you also believe everything else Fox News tells you?

    2. Re:Bull$h!t! by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

      Sorry your such a sheeple. But Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS ad nauseum are ALL full of cr@P! They only spew what the "elites" want you to hear. Typical liberal response..... Just remember the democrats and republicans are two heads of the SAME party. If you have your head up the democrat/liberal party your just buying right into their BS! Get your mouth off the crack pipe and maybe your mind will open up and you can actually start READING things for yourself. ANd of course you respond as an AC - the "C" in particular....

      Have a nice day.

      --
      The Truth is a Virus!!!
  57. Re: twat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i figure a$$hole would be the proper term.

    And this Nyder guy and his neighbors may want to start removing said kindling.

  58. My taco did not cool down as fast as expected. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh man it burns, it burns!

  59. Re:Cue in the Slashdot crowd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    [yadda-yadda...I'm the best thing since sliced bread...blah-blah]...hence the massively increasing billable rates I eluded to above.

    All those qualifications, fellow AC, and yet you still confuse eluded with alluded...

    Also, in many (most? all?) engineering schools, the students who can't cut it in physics, ChemE, pure math, or EE switch to the easier MechE so they can graduate on time.

    - T

  60. Of COURSE he does...81 percent of Americans believ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "If you like your plan you can keep your plan..."

    "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor..."

    "Not even a smidgeon of corruption..." While we have multiple spontaneous combustion of hard drives among IRS officials under investigation

    "Bowe Bergdahl served with honor and distinction..." So let's give up five of the Taliban's top leaders even though six people died trying to find the deserter.

    "Fast and Furious program was a field-initiated program begun under the previous administration..."

    In Banghazi, “We revealed to the American people exactly what we understood at the time...”

    "It was a demonstration about a video that got out of hand...and the guy who made that video is now in jail, 1st Amendment or No 1st Amendment...."

    “Transparency and the rule of law will be the touchstones of this presidency...”

    "Healthcare.gov is fixed and working..." Yeah, now it doesn't crash. It still can't connect people with insurance companies, though, and they are all guess at costs and subsidies...

    "We aren't taxing the consumer, we're taxing the health insurance companies..."

    “Too many Israelis ready to abandon the hard work of peace.” Just because they keep getting blown up by missles from Gaza. Wusses.

    "Obamacare will never subsidize illegal aliens..."

    "Obamacare will cut your health insurance premiums by at least $2,500..."

    "Illegal aliens will never be given free government benefits..."

    "Of COURSE we're checking the health of every "child" crossing the border, the sudden appearance of enterovirus d68 all over the country is just a coincidence..."

      "The individual mandate isn’t a tax!" Yeah? Supreme Court says it is, it was upheld — on the grounds that it was a tax.

    "The contraceptive mandate will never be used to divert Federal Funds to abortions..."

    "Religious organizations will not be required to violate their consciences..." Remember that unreligious organization the Little Sisters of the Poor?

    "Obamacare will implemented as specified..." Unless Obama sees fit to do otherwise...

    "Obamacare says no subsidies to people on the Federal Exchange - but we didn't mean that, even though we said it four times in legally-approved language in the actual text of the law itself and Gruber explained to everyone why..."

    "Gruber was not an architect of Obamacare..."

    “There have been no specific, credible allegations of misconduct by anyone on the White House advance team.” Even if the Secret Service found evidence that Jonathan Dach registered a prostitute into his room at the Hilton Cartagena Hotel shortly after midnight on April 4.

    "No one at the White House edited the Benghazi talking points to blame the attack on an Internet video..." until it came out that Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes had urged Susan Rice “to underscore that these protests are rooted in and Internet video, and not a broader failure or policy.”

    "I am categorically opposed to gay marriage..." Yeah, sure.

    "Around here we call them the JV team..."

    ‘Can I trust what the president says? That’s a yes-or-no question.” U.S. District Judge Andrew Hanen in response to having been lied to by the Obama administration when he discovered Obama went right ahead with executive amnesty despite swearing in court they hadn't, processing over 100,000 people.

    The president claimed in a speech in 2007 that the great civil-rights march in Selma, Ala., led to his conception: “There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma, Alabama, because some folks are willing to march across a bridge. So they got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born. So don’t tell me I don’t have a claim on Selma, Alabama.” He was in fact born years BEFORE that march happened — his parents were DIVORCED by the time of the march — but one can see how such mythology would appeal to a man with Barack Obama’s messianic pretensions.

    Shall I go on? I got hundreds more...and THAT is the TRUTH, bub.

  61. Tailpipe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The government is bribed to allow the auto manufacturers to exit the tailpipes on vehicles towards pedestrians on the sidewalk rather than out towards the opposite lane of traffic so the pedestrians breathe the pollution rather than the drivers.

  62. Irregardless of the cause by redlemming · · Score: 1

    Irregardless of the cause, the wildfires do pose health risks.

    Those who have been lucky enough to avoid one may not understand how much smoke exposure is possible here. During a fire, the roads can be completely jammed, forcing people evacuating to be exposed to high levels of smoke for many hours. Significant amounts of smoke can go right through the air sealing on cars: a good respirator for every family member belongs in one's evacuation kit if one lives in a fire-prone area. After the fire, the smoke can stay in the air at lesser but still potentially dangerous levels for months after the fire.

    Nobody really understands what health impacts these two different types of exposure will have, but for some people they could be serious. Just going to work means breathing potentially toxic air throughout the day for months at a time, since most workplaces will not have good air filtering (private residences can use air cleaners, which help quite a bit in my experience). This exposure can potentially cause long term lung damage.

    To make things worse, the smoke toxins may interact in a non-linear manner with other airborne toxins present in many workplaces. The cumulative health effect may be considerably greater than the exposure to any single toxin would cause. The safety standards for exposure to things like asbestos (common in many older buildings) almost certainly underestimate the danger thresholds because the standards did not take into account having multiple toxins present in the air at the same time.

    It is likely asthmatics and others with existing lung damage will be particularly susceptible to further lung damage.

    In all likelihood, though many people may be experiencing long-term work-related injury as a result of breathing toxic air in the workplace following wild fires, this will not be handled by existing laws that protect workers, or agencies such as OHSA. Rather then adding further fuel to the climate change debate -- basically political posturing that does more harm than good -- it would be nice if the president actually did his job and tried to do something about the potential problem of lung damage resulting from breathing toxic air.

    If we don't have good test and measurement equipment for determining the impact of fire-related toxins on the lungs, we should be researching what needs to be done to make that equipment. If we don't know how to medically treat lung damage, then we should be researching that. Given that entire communities are affected by this issue, it seems appropriate that the government should have some major role here, rather then relying on every potentially impacted individual paying for their own health care (and any research that may be required to fix problems).