Slashdot Mirror
Amid Controversy, Construction of Telescope In Hawaii Halted
An anonymous reader sends word that Hawaii Gov. David Ige has asked for a week-long hold in the construction of the Thirty Meter Telescope atop Mauna Kea. "After more than a week of demonstrations and dozens of arrests, Hawaii Gov. David Ige said Tuesday that the company building one of the world's largest telescopes atop Hawaii's Mauna Kea has agreed to his request to halt construction for a week. 'They have responded to my request and on behalf of the president of the University and the Office of Hawaiian Affairs have agreed to a time out on the project, and there will be no construction activities this week,' Ige said at a news conference. Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope on land that is held sacred to some Native Hawaiians. Scientists say the location is ideal for the telescope, which could allow them to see into the earliest years of the universe. Ige said he hopes the temporary pause in construction will allow the interested parties to have more discussions about the project. Native Hawaiian groups have been protesting the construction of the telescope since its inception last year."
The natives should have said something before the Mauna Kea Observatory was constructed in 1968. Making all this noise now is decades too late.
What could be more honoring, holy and sacred than a telescope peering out into universe?
Should not interfere with the advancement of science.
I was sad that I didn't get a callback when I applied for a job working on the software for this project.
Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope on land that is held sacred to some Native Hawaiians. Scientists say the location is ideal for the telescope, which could allow them to see into the earliest years of the universe.
Do these scientists work in a James Cameron film? Is there something about "sacred land" that makes an area better to see into the birth of the universe than plain old "cursed land"?
Not an Indian but they claim rights to the remains, this area you can't dig without hitting some ceremonial site (Washington State).
Posted to en.wikipedia.org yet some DRM prevents it from being included (ie creator of bust) http://tinypic.com/usermedia.p... and it's a damn statue.
all the land in hawaii is considered sacred.
it is an island, they buried people and constructed heiaus all over the place. there's only so many places to bury people over the course of a few hundred years. you can't swing a dead cat in hawaii without hitting something that is sacred to someone.
you ever been on the big island? no one ELSE is using the top of mauna kea for anything. it is one harsh place that can't grow weed or coffee... come get your sacred stuff out and let them build their telescope.
If you are reporting about a protest, you should, at the very minimum say WHY they are protesting.
This article totally fails to do that.
Some of us are assuming it is religious, but we don't know that. It could be a simple ownership issue - HEY THAT"S OUT LAND, NOT YOURS.
Or it could be some argument about light pollution rules preventing them from upgrading their street lights.
Look, I don't care if you disagree with the protestors, but if you don't clearly tell us why they are protesting, you are a failure as a reporter.
Oh just fucking kill yourself already, the world is full of "libtards" and it's only gonna get worse. Better end it now. Go on.
Look another one who thinks they will win in the end. Hint: Marx was wrong in all his historical predictions.
What could be more honoring, holy and sacred than a telescope peering out into universe?
Doing it while paying a suitably large bribe and paying Hawaiians. Hawaii is one of the more corrupt places in the country, and there's a lot of anti-white racism.
Although in this case it may just be an anti-science woman who doesn't conceive of herself of anti-science using her religion to justify her not wanting change to the environment. Like a Wiccan fighting your attempt to sell a public park. It's hard to tell without being involved with the local politics. So long as we give religion an elevated importance in our society, this is the crap we have to deal with.
"The irony is, backward looking is a part of the astronomy paradox, in that the farther out into space we look the further back in time we are looking, so making bigger telescopes to see farther in time, means we are moving farther and farther away from modern relevancy, actually."
http://kahea.org/blog/mk-vigne...
Just round up the natives and move them to another island. Send in the missionaries to show them the one true god(whichever it is this week), and progress will continue. ;p
Tell them with this instrument they will be able to look back in time at previous Spam (the luncheon meat) shortages and will be able to plan and prevent these shortages in the future.
Religion... keeping you down for millennia.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
This is more likely an expression of Hawiian nationalism which has been on the rise in recent years.
In some cases it has crossed the line into race hatred as the Southern Poverty Law Center noted a few years back.
And there are several independence groups. China has even offered to arm them.
And you see that like a bad thing?
USA stole the islands from natives by fraud and arms and now thay do want the independence back and that is a good thing.
Surely Kane, Ku, Lono, Kanaloa, Laka, Kihawahine, Haumea, Papahnaumoku, and Pele would be happy to see such a telescope constructed. The Native Hawaiians could use it to get a look at their deities.
The Hawaiian gods and goddesses
The stupidity of religion again stymies the advancement of knowledge and humankind in general! What a BLESSED day.
I think from now on, I'm going to start using the word "bless" in place of the word "fuck".
I can't blessing wait for the next time I hear someone sneeze...
Bless those motherblessers. Gods aren't blessing real.
Its easy to sweep this under the rug of 'religious plebs hate science' but there are other reasons to reconsider the telescope. The principle fresh water aquifer for Hawaii Island is on Mauna Kea, and there have been mercury spills on the summit; toxins such as Ethylene Glycol and Diesel are used there; chemicals used to clean telescope mirrors drain into the septic system, along with half a million gallons a year of human sewage that goes into septic tanks, cesspools and leach fields. theres not been talk of a plan on how to deal with this at all. Its also home to endangered species, such as the palila bird, which is endangered in part because of the damage to its critical habitat, which includes the mamane tree.
Good people go to bed earlier.
If you are a native of any kind, just start yelling that something is sacred, and nobody will be able to fight back against you.
Hate stuff being built near you? Just claim you can't build there because it is sacred ground.
Want something built, like a casino or giant housing development? Just claim the land is sacred and demand it back as 'sovereign' territory... so that you can build your casino.
You get to have it both ways!
it's not like the fucking americans settled on somebody else's homeland whilst exterminating... from the beginning... oh wait
Thirty Meter Telescope is constructing the telescope
Woah.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
Whoa. I didn't say it was good or bad.
I was just replying to the suggestion that this was the fault of "liberals".
Two wrongs don't make a right.
(But three lefts do)
I live in Hawaii and am excited for the new 30 meter telescope. There are currently 13 telescopes at the summit of Mauna Kea.
https://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/mko...
This project has been in the works for 7 years, The local population that is against the building of this telescope has had that long to protest, but didn't actually start protesting until the project was already underway.
From what I hear on my Facebook feed from my Hawaiian friends is that they oppose the building of this new telescope because they consider Mauna kea a sacred place, as well as the sheer size of this new telescope.
The summit is sacred to ancient Hawaiians, so much that a kapu (Ancient Hawaiian law) was made that only important tribal chiefs were allowed up at the summit. (Breaking Kapu usually meant death).
So in old Hawaii only a select few were allowed up on the volcano. I don't know why anyone is complaining. in new Hawaii anyone can visit the summit and see the majestic views of the island as well as some amazing star-gazing at night.
I don't speak up on Facebook even though many of my friends are asking me to sign a petition to stop the building of the telescope as well as protesting locally (I am on Maui). Its hard since most of my friends are not very techy or interested much in science. I keep my mouth shut since I fear I will be ostracized for speaking my true opinion.
Only complaint I have, I really wish most of these telescopes were open to the public. I have never had the opportunity to look through anything bigger than a backyard telescope and it would be amazing to be able to see what a thirty meter telescope can do.
Has what Marx proposed been tried on any scale larger than a hippie commune?
The last day of school has long been unofficially designated "Kill Haole Day," with white students singled out for harassment and violence. (Haole — pronounced how-lee — is slang for a foreigner, usually white, and sometimes is used as a racial slur.)
Hot damn that's some fiery racism.
There's always one idiot who falls back on the claim that Communism just hasn't been done correctly yet.
Maybe they need to kill even MORE people in order to get it juuuust right.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
that's not a serious question is it?
Let me tell you that the issue is far more complex and far more nuanced than any of the comments here unveil.
For some background, read this perspective from the Native Hawaiian community (http://www.welivemana.com/articles/sacredness-mauna-kea-explained?hc_location=ufi) and then also read this history from Harvard (http://www.pluralism.org/reports/view/21).
Mauna Kea is a flashpoint for Native Hawaiians because, as the Harvard report notes "it is also one of the most sacred places in the universe for Native Hawaiian people." Imagine putting an oil refinery inside the Masjid al-Haram or cell tower anchored in the Western Wall.
Sorry, no, you don't get to declare the entire top of the mountain that's the single best astronomy spot in the world, land you don't own or make any effort to maintain, as your cultural heritage location. The handful of spots up there that aren't a straight-up moonscape are already protected. Get over yourselves.
'sides, it's sacred as in the aborigines spun yarns about it while performing human sacrifice against enemies at the oceanfront heiaus scores of miles away laterally and 2 miles down. Not sacred as in lots of cultural events were actually held in the thin air at 13,000 feet atop the mountain.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
What an honor to have such an amazing piece of equipment peering back in time, to honor the history of their ancestors.
I've always said English was my second language. Had Romeo and Juliet been written in C, I might have understood it.
Has what Marx proposed been tried on any scale larger than a hippie commune?
No. Why is that?
It's certainly not because Marx's ideas are new, or because there aren't a lot of devotees of them. I posit that the reason it hasn't been tried at scale is that every attempt to scale it up breaks down as soon as you get more than a few hundred people.
Marx was a decent economist for his day, but had no understanding of human nature. An understanding of game theory, had it existed in his day, would have tremendously improved his ideas, I think. In addition, his economic theories have holes you can drive a 747 through, mainly because they seriously underestimate the knowledge component of labor, and the resulting impact of innovation, and completely ignore the value of organization. It's the latter problem that results in imposition of heavy-handed, centrally-controlled economies in all attempts to build communal societies at scale. Since Marx's structure eliminates any reasonable mechanism for self-organization of a dynamic economy, implementers try to paper it over with central committees. Unfortunately, central organization is not only horribly inefficient because the complexity of a significant economy is far beyond the comprehension of any group of humans, it inevitably creates powerful, self-interested elites. That generates resentment among the populace, which provokes top-down imposition of population control systems... propaganda, powerful secret police, etc. -- the hallmarks of the real-world communist state.
It's pretty obvious why Marxism can't work at scale, once you recognize the fact that collective ownership eliminates the ability of the economy to self-organize for efficient production. As long as the economy is small and organization is simple and obvious, it works. But beyond a few hundred people... it can't. Perhaps after we've passed the AI singularity, when all production is automated, and all organization of production as well, then communal ownership will work, and may even be essential. Or maybe not.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Kill more people, sort of like the US does with its drones on innocent civilians. Yep, way to go.
If they want to appease their gods, I suggest they throw themselves in a volcano.
The whole lot of 'em, just to make sure.
...it made the various Game of Thrones societies look like communist utopias. And according to Wiki, (Hawaiian word BTW), it was abandoned by Kamehameha in the 19th century. I'm all for protecting burial grounds and historic sites, but 'violating' prime real estate reserved for royalty in order to advance mankind's knowledge of the universe strikes me as a win.
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Typical case of religion obstructing the progress of science. Luckily in this case it is a minority religion that the local administration does not take seriously anymore. Imagine if that was a place sacred to christians, like the Mount of Olives, or to buddhists, like Sri Pada (also known as Sri Kanda). The poor telescope would never have a chance.
entropy happens
I may be wrong on this, but doesn't a US territory have to vote to become a state? Like the reason Peurto Rico isn't a state is because the votes for it have failed. So if that's true, then the natives, or at least some portion of them, voted to be a state. So even if the US did originally "steal" the islands, apparently the people that live there now don't mind.
I don't see what the problem with putting a Cell tower on the Western Wall is...
(assuming the cell traffic and geography require it).
As far as a refinery inside Masjid al-Haram, I'm sure there is no actual need for a refinery there as there are plenty of places in SA for a refinery that are not in the middle of Mecca.
Why are they always so mad?
We're we're basically splitting this country 50/50 with them.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Just imagine what would happen if they were independent with no aid from the US. No subsidies. No healthcare. No education. No military. No tax-free imports. Welcome to Micronesia, only poorer and less safe.
I work on one of the telescopes on Maui, where we also have similar problems with the Hawaiians.
The solution is simply to pay them more ransom money.
This has very little to do with Hawaiian religion and has much more to do with the Hawaiian Mafia.
It is *exceedingly* rare for Hawaiians to visit the summit for religious purposes. I've *never* seen it happen on Maui, where I live.
I have a co-work who has worked at the summit (5 days/week) for over a decade, and he has also *never* seen Hawaiians use the summit for religious purposes.
Unfortunately, when they Hawaiian organizations are given money, they spend it on lining the pockets of some of the higher-ups, who drive BMW's and live expensive life-styles. They give out high-paying jobs to a few people who go around to schools and "educate" children, however they don't spend the money on fixing up the island they've been given, building houses in the areas which have been exclusively reserved for them, starting businesses, or sending their kids to any of the Hawaiian schools. Basically they spend it on graft.
One of the amazing things is that we're starting to have public Hawaiian immersion schools, and they are among the best public schools in the state.
The odd thing is that most of the teachers and students aren't Hawaiian!
Hawaiian memes such as "Aloha" are very popular, but the Hawaiians organizing these protests are just out for more blood-money.
They don't seem to be practicing their own religion.
It's kinda sad.
This is the most likely reason. You see a lot of the same people protesting this as you see against a lot of other things (like geothermal power, biotechnology, tourism, ect.). They don't care what they protest, as long as they make some noise to draw attention to their cause of re-establishing the Hawaiian monarchy...with themselves as the new kings no doubt...and recreating the Hawaiian kingdom for people with Hawaiian blood. That, of course, is an inherently racist proposition. And I've snooped around those independence rallies before; I've seen these Hawaiian community leaders and independence activists play the race card in manners that, quite frankly, I think are unacceptable in an enlightened society.
They're people who live in the past, and play identity politics and pointless localism to enrich themselves by giving people something to hate on, no matter the cost (really, no different than you see in the South with those 'The Confederate States will rise again!' assholes). Of course, the Hawaiian nationalists don't care if this place goes to shit after they do as much damage as possible to achieve their goals, as long as they're the kings of shit mountain, and tough luck for everyone else, including no doubt their supporters who would then be in a much worse off position without the US and all the economic drivers the nationalists would like to see gone. It's really sad that anyone gives these assholes the time of day.
There's always one idiot who falls back on the claim that Communism just hasn't been done correctly yet.
If you use Marx's terminology then technically they're right, the farthest we've ever gotten is dictatorship of the proletariat, which is the phase before communism. Nitpicking aside, I agree with what you were trying to say, centrally planned utopias just don't match up with human behavior and so will never be a successful model.
Marx was a decent economist for his day, but had no understanding of human nature.
This would be more impressive if you talked about his understanding of human nature.
You mean the hallmarks of almost every single countries today...?
Previously their most sacred site in the Universe was located where Newark NJ is now.
love is just extroverted narcissism
The sooner humanity gets off this rock, the better. Leave it for those who want to dance around in animal skins and howl at the moon.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
No, that's just yet another right-wing talking point that is complete and utter bullshit.
The SPLC is a very progressive organization, and they call out racism and bigotry wherever they see it.
It's the same on almost all of the Pacific islands. Where I live, the US gave several million dollars for the local government to guild sea walls all to protect the locals from rising tides due to climate change. There have been no rising tides and not one wall has been build but lots of 54" TV have been bought as well as big-ass SUVs with tinted windows for the government officers and their families to cruise around in. Considering you can drive all the way across the island in 3 minutes at 35 miles an hour you have to really wonder......
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Also, the "Native" population only comprises about 5.9% as of the 2010 Census. There are more Filipino (14.6%) and Japanese (13.6%) alone. Various "white/caucasian" ethnic groups are about 25%. Even if you add in "Other Pacific Islander" to the Native column, it's still only 10% of the population.
Also crappy as that may be and have been, it should probably also be mentioned that the alternative was not "Hawaii lives happy and free and everything is perfect." It would have been being turned into a Protectorate or Possession of some other power - probably Japan. In the early 1920s the population of Hawaii was over 40% Japanese, and only 25% "Native."
Furthermore, Hawaii, unlike every single other exterior territory (excepting Alaska, which is very different from the rest) the USA has acquired, is now a state with full voting rights. Contrast this to Puerto Rico, Guam, the Marianas, American Samoa, etc... And let's not even get started on how much worse the native tribes in the various interior regions of the USA were treated.
While I do have some sympathy for the fact that the USA steamrollered the fuck out of lots of indigenous native populations, nevermind those it displaced to form in the first place, there do need to be limits.
Same for libertarianism. Works great on a small scale, on a large scale, someone's gonna' get robbed.
Hawaii was annexed by the US decades before it became a state. There was a vote for statehood, but the alternate choice was to remain a territory - independence was never on the table, and it may just be that those who voted considered statehood the better choice of the two.
This is a great example of Hawaiian culture struggling to survive. If people knew the beauty of Hawaiian culture they would think twice before shitting on the Mauna Kea protestors. Hula, Mele, Oli, Aina, Aloha, Ohana, Ho'oponopono, Ke Akua, are of more value than any telescope.
Hey, none of the Pacific Islanders are 'natives'
Just like all the others, they are all 'foreigners' --- their ancestors migrated from Vietnam / Taiwan / Indonesia / Papua New Guinea
This is a great example of Hawaiian culture struggling to survive. If people knew the beauty of Hawaiian culture they would think twice before shitting on the Mauna Kea protestors. Hula, Mele, Oli, Aloha, Olelo Hawaii, Aina, Mana, Ho'oponopono, Ohana, Ke Akua are of more value then any telescope.
Slashdot doesn't do complex and nuanced. We (well, most of us commentators and moderators, though not I) do simple and simplified - and insult and shit all over everyone else's rights, but scream like a toddler when one of our (usually self assumed) "rights" are so much as glanced at askance.
It doesn't seem wise to try to construct such a thing without people on side.
Its too easy to protest non violently after construction with mobile phone signals and halogen lights.
I lived in La palma for a while in Europe. People here are happy to have mobile internet service and mobile reception cut mid call to improve observation. You need that level of support.
If you can get support then you have to build on another territory. I know the USA has other territories similar. I would like to be able to quote where. AFAIK what stops this is that observatories also serve military purposes and that is something that limits where they can put these things. If this aspect was more honest though the hiding behind 'betterment of humankind' wouldn't work so well.
Slightly offtopic: I find the domes really beautiful. Its the curve. If only our cities were freer from the tyranny of straight lines a bit more we might all be a lot happier and productive
A blog I run for the wealth
If someone sincerely believed the ground to be truly sacred, wouldn't a telescope that helps bring enlightenment to all of humanity be one of the *best* possible uses of the land?
I live and work on the Big Island, and gbooch is absolutely right: this is a complex issue. The US government, religious leaders and corporate powers have shat upon Native Hawaiians for 150+ years, and it is natural to see resentment harbored to yet another massive development project occurring on sacred ground.
I would strongly suggest to those who dismiss their protests with blatant insensitivity to consider how they would feel if an enormous structure was erected right in the middle of their backyard. Analogies that come to mind are building a dam on the Grand Canyon or putting a new structure in the middle of Stonehenge.
Many of those who are protesting are intelligent and thoughtful individuals who feel like their voices were not heard during the application process. Those of us who do understand the scientific implications of such a project would be better served in trying to educate those on just how significant this instrument will be. The Hawaiian people were some of the best navigators in history--what better project to honor that history than the TMT?
Had the new Nation of Hawaii not become a US territory it would have been annexed by Russia, then Russia would have lost it to the Japanese in the early years of WWII. By 1960 Oahu would be covered with Sony and Toyota factories, and Waikiki would have that huge Ferris wheel that every other decent tourist attraction has.
Way to play the white shame card, Social Justice Paladin.
Red man speak with forked tongue. Build a straw man he does. White man denied building on tribal land. Tribe then build casino on tribal land. Learn to read, Walks With n00bs.
I wish the US Gov gave you guys money for education, or at least a spell checker. Or are you seriously stating that we gave them money to cover their sea walls in gold?
Since they opened the First Church of Weed in Indiana today, you should go ahead and register yours before the religious freedom act is repealed.
Your summary is racist stereotyping. You are bad and should feel bad for being bad.
Look another one who thinks they will win in the end. Hint: Marx was wrong in all his historical predictions.
Marx maintained that capitalist economies would always be able to out-produce communist ones.
science is my religion, saw aw yea
You've got to be kidding.
I've heard more than once from liberals and progressives that racism is impossible without power (and in their mind, only whites have power).
Jihadists kin Hawaii? The hell with people's dearly held beliefs! go extinct, dinosaurs!
Hawaii is my home, and the culture I was raised in. As it's still my home, I'm going to hide behind AC. Despite my being an outsider even among my own people, I love this place. Notwithstanding, there are tremendous rifts which will not heal anytime soon.
Lots of this can be traced back to plantation culture. There were entire families born into labor. Anti-intellectualism runs rampant in indigent areas, because of this memory. If someone is smarter, then they will elevate themselves above the equality of the others. They might be too good to work in the fields with the rest of us, so fuck em. In the local creole ("Pidgin") there are visible traces of this.
Hawaiians have gotten the short end of the stick a lot over the years. I'm quite staunchly an American, and I don't support some of their noisy fringe activists who crave radical action like secession. Still, the poorest areas of the island are the ones were Hawaiians represent over 40% of the populace, where they're about 10% elsewhere. I wish that we could urge more of their children into higher education, but it's discouraged even amongst their own families. High school graduations are celebrated with fervor and passion on the Leeward Coast, because that's as high as their parents ever aspire for them.
The telescope isn't the problem. Misguided anger is their problem. Researchers from the University of Hawaii are among some of the nicer people I've ever met, but they are a personification of the enemy. I hope that things go well for the astronomers, but I've seen a very small but vocal minority hurt other things that were good for our state.
Damn right-wing religious fundamentalists, always screwing things up. :-)
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
From what I've seen, the most sacred place to native Hawaiians appears to be the California hotel and casino in Las Vegas.