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Apple's Plans For Your DNA
An anonymous reader writes: MIT's Technology Review breaks news that Apple is working with scientists to create apps that collect and evaluate users' DNA. "The apps are based on ResearchKit, a software platform Apple introduced in March that helps hospitals or scientists run medical studies on iPhones by collecting data from the devices' sensors or through surveys." A source says Apple's plan is to enable users to easily share their DNA information with medical workers and researchers performing studies. "To join one of the studies, a person would agree to have a gene test carried out—for instance, by returning a "spit kit" to a laboratory approved by Apple. The first such labs are said to be the advanced gene-sequencing centers operated by UCSF and Mount Sinai."
"By using this application you agree to grant all rights to the usage of your DNA to Apple, inc, including, but not limited to, creating an army of clones in your image."
What can I say?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
...will be based on a database containing only rich hipsters?
seeing the likely phenotypes of potential children?
I give out my DNA all the time. As long as I don't have to pay child support, I am not concerned.
The guy with a mac.com email address nay-saying the cautious. Funny.
No surprise this asshole's homepage is slashdotted...
I can't wait for this info to wind up, either due to hackers, or other means in a public database:
1: Insurance companies will love it -- they now have more reasons to hike premiums or drop people.
2: It will be used by some companies as yet another quiet filter, ensuring some people's resumes always hit the round file.
3: It will enable Gattaca-like discrimination.
4: It will be used by some governments for mass arrests and genocide, similar to countries in the Middle East currently using DNA to test potential government officials for Jewish ancestry, and deny them that job if they test positive.
5: It will be used to deny services. Someone's family has a tendency for depression? No gun, knife, or camping equipment for them.
6: It will be used for more discrimination, especially with the advances in facial recognition. People can be booted to the back of the bus even if they don't look African American.
7: It can be used as a means of extending someone's criminal sentence (their genes show they have a tendency to being a felon, so lock them up.) Or just as a probable cause for searches.
When people's DNA winds up in a searchable database... I can't wait to be told that I'm not wanted at a local eatery because I had a native American ancestor 300 years ago.
Sure, until insurance companies and governments start demanding access to it.
You don't need to be much of a conspiracy nut to realize the potential for privacy invasion and abuse of this data is absolutely staggering.
There simply are way too few legal controls on how this stuff is used to safely make it as commonplace as that.
Essentially, corporations and the government will have massive databases of the DNA of pretty much everybody ... and it will be used to deny you service, in criminal proceedings because they can demand it, and who knows what else.
DNA samples on an iPhone is a hell of a way to get the fully distopian future and Big Brother .. because you can bet your ass that secret warrants will be used to force companies to hand this stuff over and then have it collated into one big giant database.
I don't care if it's Apple, Microsoft, Google, or anybody else ... this is a creepy idea which will have enormous implications to society.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
anything you say or do (or spit) will be used against you without approval by a court of law.
your life insurance just went up (or was canceled), gee I wonder why?
you medical coverage is going up $$, or was terminated, what a coincidence!
next product at Apple R&D is the iAnalProbe, lube not included!
because what could possibly go wrong, the info could never ever be mis-used or stolen.....
They aren't taking the DNA sample FROM the iPhone. You are mailing a sample of DNA to some lab which will link your SNP profile with your iTunes ID number.
Now, think of this for a minute. The ability to associate SNPs with buying proclivities. An "Apple gene", if you will.
Now folks, this is a marketing executives wet dream complete with hookers and blow.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
You can't actually take the sample on the phone - the idea is that you can get your DNA sampled, then the results get stored on your phone - which you can if you wish share that anyone who would like to have it after that, if you choose.
So it's pretty close in terms of value (because if a lot of people do this a lot of researchers could get quick access to DNA data instead of having to do it once per test). But it's not as widespread as direct collection would be.
I don't think I'd want my phone actually being the DNA collection point anyway as it would think I was some kind of human/cat hybrid.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Oh, man, that would make for an awesome dating app! Swipe right, and it renders your potential children.
This was my thoughts as well...
So you have a higher probability of getting this disease due to genes that we don't really understand yet... well the policy that covers that is more expensive or we refuse to cover you.
How bout we sell you a policy that just covers what you are predisposed for to save some money? Sorry, broken legs are not included in your policy...
This sounds like a HIPAA violation and apple may be for a big issue.
I bet they will patent all our genomes and then we'll be screwed: of course you can have children without paying us, as long as they are not rectangular with rounded corners and do not contain these 20 amino-acids in our list...
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Now the real reason for the iWatch comes to light, and why it won't work with tattoos. Can't contaminate the 1-point font, EULA-permitted DNA samples with ink, after all.
...to be used by Apple for violating their copyright on my DNA by, you know, being alive.
When is Apple Records going to sue again for violation of its trademark? Apple (Cupertino) is dipping ever more into the music distribution business.
Now we'll be able to use science to segment everyone into strata according to their usefulness to mankind!
I already know what Tim Cook wants to do with my DNA.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Perhaps they're getting their foot in the door regarding DNA identification, if (when?) they managed to get their mitts on a tiny device that can sequence DNA from breath/spit etc., they'll only need to combine that with their DNA database they've been collecting for years to create a commodity worth billions they'll be able to oursource to security companies for a tidy profit.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Last time I set it up, Android Play didn't need a CC. (Or maybe I set one up and then deleted it to make sure I never accidentally bought anything.)
I am, however, starting to consider getting a "throwaway CC" like I use throwaway email addresses. Enough places want a CC, and I would be nice to have an account where I know that ANY charges on it are unwanted (and should be challenged/reversed).
This is a bad idea, a really bad idea.
... I think the water temp just crept up a few more degrees. And the frogs just keep smiling.
I got into programming just as the web was really taking off (~25 yrs ago maybe), and I had such high hopes of what it would bring 'regular' people. Now, it's filled with ads, trolls, extreme corporatism, the commonditization of 'us' (our habits, our data, our everything), and just plain old crap (Kartrashians etc).
I think social media has turned us into oh-so-willing data givers, we're just happy to share freaking everything, for a coupon, a 'Like', or a thumbs up. Corporations couldn't be happier. My DNA info with Apple? FUCK THAT, I don't care how they spin it.
'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
So then they can store it in a database and, the next time you jaywalk, the hair you dropped will implicate you in a crime.
Sure, until insurance companies and governments start demanding access to it.
That's certainly something worth worrying about (it would really piss me off, that's for sure), but how does this make it significantly more likely? Who are they going to be demanding access from? The researchers? That's a huge no-no. People who happen to own iPhones with whatever accessory allows for DNA testing? How would they know?
No, the thing to worry about there is just that the general increase in ease of DNA testing and sequencing will lead to insurance companies deciding they need to have the genomes of all their insured on file. Once they decide that, it's possible that they would use a device like this to do the actual testing—or they could use any of the various other DNA testing/sequencing devices around.
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
And I say again, I'm glad I don't have children.
Work with.. as in "Carry a broom for a living" ?
The guy with a mac.com email address nay-saying the cautious. Funny.
So what? It seems almost like a person would be able to not have their DNA collected by not having their DNA collected. GO figure My guess is that people who want ot have their pulse constantly monitored, and all the other wonky things the Apple watch does, won't mind, and their is an opt out program called Don't Buy the Goddamned Watch.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
great
I might even buy the idevice if I get to spit on it to login
...I obey the laws of physics....
Sure, until insurance companies and governments start demanding access to it.
You don't need to be much of a conspiracy nut to realize the potential for privacy invasion and abuse of this data is absolutely staggering.
All part of the FEMA Death camp, black helicopter, chemtrail poisoned, gun stealin', Jack booted thugs, No Moon Landing, Ancient aliens, Mayan apocolypse, Roswell alien spaceships, Kenyan president, 666 tattooed on your forehead, doomsday preppers, new world order
It is always in Governments best interest to grind it's citizens under their hobnailed heels as much as possible. Makes the world run better don't you think?
I have a newsletter. And T shirts.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
lets ignore the fact that network and system security is a total fucking JOKE on compute devices these days.
wait, lets NOT ignore that. in fact, its more important than the 'good use' cases.
if there's any chance my med history info gets out to the wrong people (ie, most people are the wrong people) then this should never even be prototyped, much less implemented.
"hey, there's a car crash up ahead! should we just keep driving and hope we can get thru or do we go around it and avoid it?"
this is a car crash waiting to ruin lives. NO THANKS!
it would be funny - if it wasn't so pathetic - how stupidly we trust computers to contain our most sensitive info.
its similar to when I go to the doctor and they ask if I want to join their 'internet service' so that I can dialog with my doctor online and have him/her send med info to me over email. and each time I have to return the lecture to the supposedly 'smart doctor' that only a fool (or millenial..) would opt to have his most sensitive info sent over what is totally unsecured channels. and don't give me that "but its ssl!" bullshit. we all should know better than that, as geeks.
--
"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
Seriously? Something that's been billed as 'the next big thing in remote diagnosis' and we're fucking freaking out over it potentially sampling DNA?
Let's go full-on batshit crazy and take the obvious truth of what is CURRENTLY happening:
Since government off-and-on relies on polygraph which is sketchy science . . .
And the NSA has admitted to gathering metadata . . .
OH FUCK, they are CURRENTLY monitoring everyone's pulse to see if they're telling the truth when someone tweets that they just got some. We're all going to be outed as liars that only got an accidental boob brush.
God people are idiots.
cue the idiots who think DNA controls everything. it's just propensity to stupid lifestyle choices that make you sick
Obviously, the debug port is so that their new wrist strap can take skin samples and sequence your DNA right in the strap/watch!
It adds a new "layer" of "security" as well. :D
Well, "sharing" your location with your cellphone company (by simply leaving your phone on) makes it no longer private, why would sharing this with Apple be any different?
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
Unfortunately they already do this: http://reason.com/blog/2015/05/06/ancestrycom-hands-over-client-dna-test-r.
Just think, eventually doctor's might be able to tell you how a drug will work with you and not play the odds guessing.
Sure, until insurance companies and governments start demanding access to it.
That's certainly something worth worrying about (it would really piss me off, that's for sure), but how does this make it significantly more likely?
Because it is creating what amounts to a massive DNA database. Once that is done, it is essentially inevitable that the data will be sued by insurance companies, governments, advertising agencies, hackers, and other ne'er-do-wells. This is a disaster in the making.
Police forces have been trying and trying and trying for ages to get more people in the DNA database. There was a huge fight over this in England because police were conducting stop-and-frisks and then demanding DNA. The police have also tried "DNA for a dollar" approaches and offered money if you just turn over your DNA. Whatever it is this data seems to be insanely valuable to the police and we're not sure why.
If someone ever mentions "oh yeah, I hear Apple has some of that" you can bet they're going to try and get it. They'll subpoena for it, they'll hack for it, they'll set up sharing agreements with the NSA to get it, they'll hire random people to bombard with FOI requests for cash-payments to get it. Once that data gets out there's nothing you can do about it. You might eventually be able to change your SSN if you beg and plead enough (and pay enough), but you can't change your DNA. Once known they now know _a lot_ about you. They know things about you that you don't necessarily know about _yourself_. There are items on your medical record that _you_ are not allowed to know...
What's next? Breeding licenses? State-selected breeding programs? Demolition Man?
... does this company take me for?
Jack D. Ripper is concerned
Once you share it with a third party they don't need a warrant.
"...and their is an opt out program called Don't Buy the Goddamned Watch."
And if you don't want phones tracking your location then don't get a mobile phone. And if you don't want the police scanning your license plate then don't get a car.
-- "Oh. This guy again."
1) The potential for abuse and discrimination in employment and insurance is immense. Good luck proving that you were discriminated against. It is really hard to prove biases and judgments based on stereotypes. The GINA Act that the Americans seem to think will protect them, is full of loop holes. For example, GINA does not cover life insurance, auto insurance and a few other types. It only covers health insurance. Good luck proving discrimination even in case of the health insurance.
2) I see that most common people (even the otherwise smart ones not trained in genetics) seem to have a lot of trouble understanding the nature of genetic data, the interactions of variations, and its multiple functional interpretations. If a child in school is found out to have a SNP that according to even an unvalidated/dubious study, renders a 'proclivity to aggression', or 'a tendency to depression', or 'lowers learning abilities by x%', he/she will be discriminated against. Doesn't matter if he has ten other redeeming SNPs that nullify the effect, or even makes it better. Doesn't matter that there are complex epigenetic, metabolic and even microbiomic (from our gut microbes) interactions. There are unambiguous genotypes, but those are far and few compared to the vast ocean of genetic variation. And if a child has any supposed 'suicidal' variation, that's even more trouble for him.
As a society we are far away from being mature about genetic variation. Hell, we haven't even accepted our racial differences. Some day we will all grow up collectively to handle our diversity. Just like we have learned to ignore photos on facebook profiles. But with genetic data which is immutable throughout our lives, I don't see that day being anywhere near.
I have seen a couple of pompous types at genomics conferences who were bragging that they put up their data and their kids' data online. It's just stupid. Even apple, with all their supposed stress on security and privacy, I cannot trust. I say this as an iPhone and iPad user.
This. As a genomics researcher, I feel scared at the number of ways this data can be abused and misused.
1) The potential for abuse and discrimination in employment and insurance is immense. Good luck proving that you were discriminated against. It is really hard to prove biases and judgments based on stereotypes. The GINA Act that the Americans seem to think will protect them, is full of loop holes. For example, GINA does not cover life insurance, auto insurance and a few other types. It only covers health insurance. Good luck proving discrimination even in case of the health insurance.
2) I see that most common people (even the otherwise smart ones not trained in genetics) seem to have a lot of trouble understanding the nature of genetic data, the interactions of variations, and its multiple functional interpretations. If a child in school is found out to have a SNP that according to even an unvalidated/dubious study, renders a 'proclivity to aggression', or 'a tendency to depression', or 'lowers learning abilities by x%', he/she will be discriminated against. Doesn't matter if he has ten other redeeming SNPs that nullify the effect, or even makes it better. Doesn't matter that there are complex epigenetic, metabolic and even microbiomic (from our gut microbes) interactions. There are unambiguous genotypes, but those are far and few compared to the vast ocean of genetic variation. And if a child has any supposed 'suicidal' variation, that's even more trouble for him.
As a society we are far away from being mature about genetic variation. Hell, we haven't even accepted our racial differences. Some day we will all grow up collectively to handle our diversity. Just like we have learned to ignore photos on facebook profiles. But with genetic data which is immutable throughout our lives, I don't see that day being anywhere near.
I have seen a couple of pompous types at genomics conferences who were bragging that they put up their data and their kids' data online. It's just stupid. Even apple, with all their supposed stress on security and privacy, I cannot trust. I say this as an iPhone and iPad user.
What are the attack cases that you are worried about knowledge of your DNA enabling?
All the ones I can think of don't actually need your DNA as the DNA is more for identifying the presence of the phenoptye unambiguously so absent a DNA profile they'll juts default to using what information they do have to decide if you're black, or in poor health, and discriminate all the same.
So saying "no thanks" to any form of DNA database, because it could be used for discrimination is like saying "no tanks" to airlines because plane crashes are so dangerous, so you'll stick to cars instead.
Be honest: exactly what "dystopian big brother" scenario do you envision happening if the government were to end up possessing such a database? I can't think of one, since there isn't - so far as I know, please do correct me if I'm wrong on this - a gene for "terrorist," "libertarian," "conservative," "liberal," or any of a host of human behaviors that the *government* would actually give a fuck about. Is the government going to deny you the right to vote, because you have the BRCA-1 gene? Will they throw you in prison for daring to have a copy of the genetic code that results in male pattern baldness?
The idea that "genes" will somehow be some sort of master database enabling government abuse is ridiculous. Now, in terms of controlling people, however, the government having access to databases full of purchasing records, phone calls, travel patterns, etc. is absolutely cause for concern - and yet they have access to *every single bit of that* today, as long as they get a warrant. (And let's be honest - much of that requires zero warrant to begin with).
Now, "genes" may be a particularly potent "cost cutting" measure for medical insurance companies - "sorry, we won't insure you since you have gene such-and-such, or are a carrier for syndrome xyz." But outside of that? I'm really struggling to see any dark and sinister ending if government has access to my genetic code. Please phrase your answer in the form of a realistic, non-sci-fi scenario.
A statue of Steve Jobs with a wash mechanism to rinse off, contain and label each spit sample.
I know plenty of people who'd line up for it.
Do they want urine samples, too?
That's not creepy at all, Apple.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
For now, they're just going to go with the current test which is if you buy an Apple product, you don't have any sort of advanced brain genes of any kind.
Throw the political landscape changes in the US that can happen every 2, 4 and 6 years, and you REALLY have a problem! One year your relatively safe in the system, the next year, because of political shift in power, you are genuinely screwed!
Remember when they tried to revive Cobra Commander by stealing DNA?
I'll never forget the line from Gattaca.
"I belonged to a new underclass, no longer determined by social status or the color of your skin. No, we now have discrimination down to a science."
The movie is 18 years old now, and we are closing in on Andrew Niccol's idea faster than I would like.
"Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
I already spill enough DNA on my phone when I take long "bathroom breaks" at work anyways. I wonder if they can somehow roll STD testing into it, too.
"...and their is an opt out program called Don't Buy the Goddamned Watch."
And if you don't want phones tracking your location then don't get a mobile phone. And if you don't want the police scanning your license plate then don't get a car.
Catching on are ya?.
Then buy a homestead in Idaho, stash your guns and ammo, pray to Jesus, and if God smiles on you, you'll make it past the apocalypse, which will happen any day now, right?
Tell me of a cellular phone system that doesn't track you. It's inherent in the design, and will not ever work without knowing your location. No GPS needed. Only way it doesn't know you location is turned off and in a metal box, or completely outside of cell phone coverage.
And what on earth are you even using a computer for? You are simply not anonymous, you do know that don't you? All that is needed is a good reason to find you, and you will indeed be found. If your privacy is that important to you, I suggest you better chuck that computer right now. ParaSlashnoids suffer from the serious problem of not being born in the year 1200.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
In the future the human race will be divided into Apples and oranges. The masses will be the oranges, while the Apples will be the genetically sequenced elite with access to not just the latest medical technology but the biometric clearance to become part of the ruling technocratic class.
This. As a genomics researcher, I feel scared at the number of ways this data can be abused and misused.
But presumably you also know that it's now possible to sequence a person's entire genome from only a few drops of saliva - with a current cost of just a bit over $1,000 for 30X read depth. And presumably you also know that, at 3 billion base pairs, the human genome is almost incomprehensibly large. A typical person will differ from the reference genome at millions of positions.
It's a safe bet that there will be a few people out there who will obsess about one particular SNP or another - and who it would be best to keep your genome sequence secret from. But if they want your genome sequence it will be easy for them to get it - off a glass you used in a restaurant - or from your urine when you used the restroom.
But individual genome sequencing is also the biggest revolution in medicine since antibiotics and aseptic surgery. There are going to be a lot of people who would have either died in infancy or lived out lives of brutal disability who will soon be able to live normal healthy lives.
So you mean to say just by getting their sequence data you will be able to save people? We are so far away from that even now, that I won't even bother arguing with you on that point. For an average person the benefits of getting sequenced and storing their data on the cloud today (and for many more years) are simply not worth the risks mentioned by the GP. Unless you are a cancer patient with your life on the line.
Coming to your first argument. Just because you can take the trouble and find the information on a person doesn't mean that anybody will be able to do so. Perhaps someone who can physically follow the person can do that. But at least the person has to be individually targeted. It's not much different from being followed and watched. It can be done, but generally there is a big enough effort barrier that you won't bother with. And even if the sequencing becomes an awfully simple process one day (which it is not today), you can still target one person at a time and you have to be physically close to the target. Not so with this cloud storage and sharing. Yours is the same flawed argument that I've heard over and over about putting personal data online. Only, in this case losing control of this data is far more dangerous than losing a few 'dick picks' (to quote John Oliver on that last phrase).
So you mean to say just by getting their sequence data you will be able to save people?
There are a variety of well known genetic disorders (e.g. phenylketonuria) where eating (or not eating) the right things makes the difference between dying in infancy and living a normal healthy life. There are many other genetic disorders where treatments are available that can significantly improve outcomes. And things are likely to improve dramatically as more and more genetic disorders become better understood. Plus, once you know what you have, you can join up with support groups and even lobby the pharmaceutical companies to develop treatments for your disorder.
There's also the family planning aspect. In many cases, a child will have major health problems and other disabilities but it won't be clear whether the underlying cause is genetic. It's very useful to the parents to know whether any other children they would have would also be affected.
And even if the sequencing becomes an awfully simple process one day (which it is not today),...
It's not really all that hard today - just spit in a tube (e.g. Oragene OG-500), FedEx it (at room temperature - no ice needed) to a sequencing facility somewhere in the world (e.g. MacroGen in Korea), pay your $1000, and a few weeks later they'll send you a USB hard drive with your genome sequence on it.
Yours is the same flawed argument that I've heard over and over about putting personal data online. Only, in this case losing control of this data is far more dangerous...
How? There's all kinds of nasty stuff people can do if they have my bank account details - or even my home address. But what are they going to do with my genome sequence? Deny me life insurance? If lack of life insurance was the biggest problem I faced in this world I would be a very lucky man.
The guy with a mac.com email address nay-saying the cautious. Funny.
...and the ANONYMOUS COWARD using an ad hominem attack against them, based on User information. Funnier.
No, the thing to worry about there is just that the general increase in ease of DNA testing and sequencing will lead to insurance companies deciding they need to have the genomes of all their insured on file.
But, at least in the U.S., now that we have the ACA (a/k/a ObamaCare), there is less incentive for individualized "risk profiling" by insurance carriers, since things like "pre-existing conditions" can no longer be used to deny, nor "adjust" rates or coverage.
And speaking as a (now-insured) Diabetic who could not purchase private insurance under any reasonable circumstances under the "old system", because there was a chance I might actually need it, and for all its faults, I for one am happy to have the ACA.
Let me tell you, it was WONDERFUL to not have to fill-out 200 questions, just to have the insurance-carrier's system decide that it wasn't going to give me insurance (after collecting my health info and my credit card info), for the fact that I was a Diabetic (which was about the 10th question I answered out of around 200).
Hear hear :-)
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.
That's not an ad hominem. Try again, fanboy.
And they forget that back in 1200 communities were small and EVERYBODY around you knew all about you.
-- Cheers!
These days, genomic labs use custom panels, seeking information only for SNPs related to the study and voluntarily ignoring the rest. Apple would definitely not want to store SNPs related to "proclivity to aggression", but they might be interested to know if you can metabolize lactose. It makes a lot of sense for them to store some carefully chosen parts of your DNA in an iPhone (the less sensitive parts). Apple planned to replace the wallet, why not also the medical bracelet?
Decode your health
Sure, until insurance companies and governments start demanding access to it.
You don't need to be much of a conspiracy nut to realize the potential for privacy invasion and abuse of this data is absolutely staggering.
Gee, and yet you complain about a voluntary option instead of all the crap Googles knows about you just by scanning through the shit of people who know you. I present you: the one-eye-blind Paranoid!
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.