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Why Was Linux the Kernel That Succeeded?

jones_supa writes: "One of the most puzzling questions about the history of free and open source software is this: Why did Linux succeed so spectacularly, whereas similar attempts to build a free or open source, Unix-like operating system kernel met with considerably less success?" Christopher Tozzi has rounded up some theories, focusing specifically on kernels, not complete operating systems. These theories take a detailed look at the decentralized development structure, pragmatic approach to things, and the rich developer community, all of which worked in favor of Linux.

87 of 469 comments (clear)

  1. Meh by Anrego · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Amazed that neither the GPL nor the legal uncertainties surrounding BSD at the time (hey, remember those days!) were really focused on, but meh. I think like everything else that became wildly popular in spite of plenty of seemingly equivalent or better alternatives, it just came down to dumb luck and momentum.

    Somehow Linux got the ball rolling, people gathered around it, it gained steam, and here we are.

    1. Re:Meh by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      about 10 or 15 yrs ago, at least in the bay area, people WERE afraid of the linux gpl. I worked at many places that avoided using linux code in their products and we used any form of bsd we could.

      now, I never see bsd mentioned anymore in job ads. its ALL about linux.

      wonder what finally made the c-levels unafraid of linux? the gpl is still the same and we did have gplv2 and v3 back in the old days when bsd was 'the thing to use' for networking boxes.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    2. Re:Meh by sconeu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The GPL and BSD legal uncertainties may have been a part of it, but that still leaves us with the question, Why Linux and not HURD?

      HURD was also GPL and free of the BSD uncertainties.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    3. Re:Meh by itzly · · Score: 2

      There was no HURD at the time, and people got tired of waiting.

    4. Re:Meh by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Wait a second, HURD is done?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re:Meh by itzly · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not sure. Try sticking a fork() in it.

    6. Re:Meh by pla · · Score: 4, Informative

      There was no HURD at the time, and people got tired of waiting.

      As opposed to today, when... We still have no HURD, and people stopped waiting a decade ago?

    7. Re:Meh by danbob999 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      about 10 or 15 yrs ago, at least in the bay area, people WERE afraid of the linux gpl. I worked at many places that avoided using linux code in their products and we used any form of bsd we could.

      The success of Linux isn't because of it's users 10 or 15 years ago. It's because of its contributors 10 or 15 years ago (and today). And GPL attracts contributors while BSD push them into forking and keeping their local changes for themselves.

    8. Re:Meh by TWX · · Score: 2

      A friend of mine stared playing with FreeBSD, I started playing with Linux that I got on some CDs.

      We both had 486s. He found that he had better hardware support in Linux than BSD, so he switched to Linux.

      The early kernel compliation process (at least as far back as 2.0.0) was relatively friendly. One could use a text-based menu system that worked similarly to how the text-driven installation process for Debian works now, to pick the hardware to support, to pick if the kernel was to be modular or monolithic, and to pick architecture. This allowed novices to customize their computers even when they had no programming knowledge. It also helped that most distributions at the time packed competing projects in such that one could choose which windowmanager and could change between them relatively easily if one wanted to experiment.

      I think it really was ease of access for someone relatively computer savvy. It also helped that UNIX books (like UNIX in a Nutshell) applied too, so there was a lot of good documentation that worked for Linux too.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    9. Re:Meh by tristes_tigres · · Score: 2

      It's pretty misleading to state as fact that BSD license, which is more permissive than GPL, "pushes them into forking".

    10. Re:Meh by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think the main reason Linux grew like it did is Linus Torvalds himself. His attitude as a benevolent tyrant seems to have worked pretty well.

    11. Re:Meh by danbob999 · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's exactly by being more "permissive" that users of BSD software do not contribute back to the upstream project. GPL kind of forces them to do so (if they want to distribute their modified software, they have to release the sources, so you might as well contribute to upstream). It's part of the reason why Linux succeeded even though many BSD alternatives were viable at the time.

    12. Re:Meh by lactose99 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Plenty of users of the BSDs contribute their changes back. Yahoo and Apple are both rather giving in this respect. Part of the reasoning is that once you make your change proprietary you then have to effectively fork the code and continue all maintenance yourself. For infrastructure changes its simply easier to contribute the change back. If someone keeps one bit proprietary and submits ten other bits back as a result of keeping that bit proprietary I still consider that a win.

      --
      Fully licensed blockchain psychiatrist
    13. Re:Meh by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      That is refuted by the fact that BSD still works fine, and all the modern *nix software runs just fine on either.

      I've been using one or the other since before "10-15 years ago" and that was the case already then, and continues to be the case now.

      What people don't understand about BSD, and most open source, is that nobody actually benefits from users except the users themselves, and people selling services. Contributors mostly contribute for their own reasons, and *nix versions with low numbers of contributors are still doing fine.

      And click around on github if you think that BSD-licensed projects get less return contribution. License might be a factor determining what software people use, but the same person will usually contribute their changes back regardless of which license it is. Lots of high level languages use BSD-style licenses for everything, and they have no shortage of contributions. In fact those languages are the biggest areas of contributions. Look at CPAN for example, or Ruby gems.

      BSD operating systems get less contributions because there is less thrash. They're not cool or trendy, and they discourage rapid feature thrash, so they're basically useless for youths to use to "cut their chops." The code quality won't be high enough for them to get included, and there just isn't demand for "new" stuff at the OS level.

      Linux was already fully successful 15 years ago. It isn't any more successful now, because it isn't any more or less free, or libre, or available. We could already do "everything" other than run specific proprietary apps, something still true.

    14. Re:Meh by jbolden · · Score: 2

      That's pretty much how XNU (OSX) evolved. Microkernel with monolithic for some stuff. Though once in it gets harder to pull it out again so the movement has been mostly one way. My point was Hurd never made those compromises, so it wasn't a viable kernel.

  2. Re:Why Was Linux the Kernel That Succeeded? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    WTF do you guys even try to English?

    FTFY

  3. why no longer afraid of Linux? by mbkennel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    | wonder what finally made the c-levels unafraid of linux?

    time and nobody important being sued

    1. Re:why no longer afraid of Linux? by rubycodez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      HP and IBM acceptance and putting hundreds of millions into Linux R&D research so it could run on their x86-64 servers, midrange (e.g. ibm power systems and HP integrity mid range) and big iron (ibm mainframe and HP superdome)

    2. Re:why no longer afraid of Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      time and nobody important being sued

      Until CISCO at least. When that happened, the suits went nuts. Where I worked there was a huge initiative to make sure we weren't at any kind of risk of the same thing happening. Every bit of open source we were using was reviewed, a database was created, and a whole process for approving and tracking use of anything we didn't pay for was implemented.

      They became really paranoid about it. For awhile you'd have better luck asking for a piece of software that costs $10k than asking for a BSD licensed tool to do the same thing. It's cooled down now, but yeah, it was a real eye opener for a lot of management types.

  4. Stone soup by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 5, Interesting

    When I was a kid, i read a book called Stone Soup. It was about these guys that wanted to eat, had nothing but a pot. They put in some stones... called it stone soup.

    Eventually people got curious, and added things.. the soup became real. Going from water and rocks, to where real ingredients went in, and the stones just fell away. A seed, but then dropped when something real came.

    I always thought of Linus as a guy who managed the Stone Soup well. It wasn't specially good in .01 version. But he made people want to add to it. The GPL helped some. Linus chose that license, not as a "hey Im a zealot and you need to give me everything you write" but he thought "if people do cool things they need to let me see their cool things"

    That, and FreeBSD had a few handicaps. The biggest one was the AT&T lawsuit. Linus himself once said he'd probably not have bothered with Linux if BSD was clean. The second, BSD had a slower model of improvement. You needed to have the commit bit to do anything constructive. Meanwhile Linus (later Cox) took code from pretty much anyone that made sense. Third, BSD5 had a radical new kernel design that added a lot of complication for threading with little gain. DragonFlyBSD was forked because of this.

    So, IMHO, there were a few things... all of them dented (Free)BSD, and there really wasn't another competitor out there.

    1. Re:Stone soup by cant_get_a_good_nick · · Score: 2

      wow, thanks anonymous person... and I like Danny Kaye...

  5. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by rubycodez · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux is not a copy of Minix, the code is quite different.

  6. Snowball effect by steveha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not a big mystery. Linus released a primitive kernel that worked, at the right time, with the right license, and then diligently kept rolling up contributions and releasing the result.

    Expanding a bit:

    While the first release of Linux was primitive, it worked. People hungry for a free *NIX were able to grab it and run it. At the same time, HURD was a big research project; if you just wanted to run *NIX on your own computer, HURD was not at all ready.

    Linus released it at the right time. It was just becoming possible for large numbers of people to get the kernel from him, and to send contributions back to him. Something like Linux might not have worked at all before the Internet and/or BBSs; it would have been too difficult to send releases out and collect contributions of code.

    Linus used the right license. He has said that the choice of releasing under GPLv2 was the best decision he ever made. Arguably a BSD license could have worked as well, but many people have a fear that if they contribute to BSD projects, that evil companies might benefit from their work; with GPL they are comfortable contributing. Also, IBM contributed some code that uses IBM patents; because of the GPL, IBM knew that commercial entities wanting to use the patents would still need to license the patents from IBM. So Linux got the largest possible pool of contributors.

    And then there is the fact that Linus worked hard managing Linux. He collected patches sent by people and rolled them in. These days he writes very little code himself; almost all he does is manage patches. I'm not sure how much code he wrote in the early days, but I think his diligent application of patches sent to him helped Linux to become stable and useful.

    Given all of the above, Linux was a success, and success bred more success (the "Snowball effect"). People who just wanted something that worked could grab Linux as it worked better and better all the time; people who wanted to join an active project joined it as it was the most active project.

    If Linus hadn't released when he did, another project might have gotten the snowball momentum thing going and become the big popular project. But he did, and he worked hard to keep it going, and the result is the kernel that changed the world.

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    1. Re:Snowball effect by Marginal+Coward · · Score: 2

      It's not a big mystery. Linus released a primitive kernel that worked, at the right time, with the right license, and then diligently kept rolling up contributions and releasing the result.

      The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

      Then again, once time and chance happeneth, being wise, understanding, and skillful don't hurt.

    2. Re:Snowball effect by steveha · · Score: 4, Informative

      A few more comments to expand on the above.

      A project like Linux would not have been possible without the GNU project, most particularly the GCC C compiler. Commercial UNIX releases charged something like $2000 for a C compiler, but thanks to Richard Stallman there was a free C compiler for Linus to use, and Bash and everything else.

      Before Linux was released, MINIX was a popular choice for a free *NIX. But licensing issues tangled up MINIX: to build MINIX you needed to buy Tanenbaum's book, get the source code that came with it, and then apply all the community patches (which had to be kept separate purely for licensing reasons). If Professor Tanenbaum could have released the source to MINIX under GPLv2, and he or someone else had worked as hard as Linus did to collect and apply patches to improve it, maybe MINIX could have gotten the snowball effect going. (Note that MINIX was what Linus was running when he wrote Linux!)

      As others have noted, there was at least one BSD available around the time Linux got going, but there was the dark shadow of a lawsuit and the future of BSD looked uncertain. Linux had the advantage of being all-new code with no legal uncertainty. Absent the lawsuit, maybe BSD could have gotten the snowball going.

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    3. Re:Snowball effect by MrDoh! · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's it, it worked, and the license let it pop up on a few CD cover discs with no hassle. At the time, we were a SCO Unix house, solid, worked, no complaints but the cost wasn't trivial. Still, worked and worked well. Messing about we looked at other unix things, one was.. (going off memory now) MKS Unix I think it was. And... can't recall the other, some 99 quid one that was also rough around the edges. Now, Linux was free, no 'get in touch for commercial reasons' and within a couple of weeks, we got an updated version. The other cheapo unixes we looked at had problems and didn't look like they were being fixed quick. Loading up all our code, and doing a make... it worked. It all flippin worked. Was /really/ scary to see that the compiler was very decent, the headers all included, if it DID need any tweaks, they were so inconsequential that we knocked them out in minutes. Bosses were impressed, but worried about support, and that's why as a company we didn't go official, but all of us said "this is going to dominate one day, it works and works well". But overall... availability/cost was the thing that got us looking at it. Plus, compared to other unix versions, it felt very similar to SCO in it's layout at the time (at least Slakware did, Yggdrasil had better gfx support for the cards I had at the time (Trident...? maybe?) but Slackware was very familiar. Though I'd not have ever expected that one day I'd be lugging a phone around with me that ran Linux at it's core.

      --
      Waiting for an amusing sig.
    4. Re:Snowball effect by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 3, Informative

      - Red Hat, Novell etc on the software front.

      Backwards. Linux wasn't successful because Red Hat and Novell got behind it. Red Hat and Novell got behind Linux because it was successful. Red Hat was founded *after* the Linux kernel was first written and didn't become a big corporation until 8-10 years after Linux's first release. Linux grew Red Hat, not the other way around. Novell got seriously involved in pushing Linux even later.

    5. Re:Snowball effect by TopSpin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's not a big mystery. Linus released a primitive kernel that worked, at the right time, with the right license, and then diligently kept rolling up contributions and releasing the result.

      This is all true and important, but I think it's leaves out the really important part. Linus has good judgement in two critical areas; policy and people.

      You and many others are correct about the timing, license and Linus's willingness to accept contributions without preconditions, and that part of it accounts for the early days. But it could have gone so wrong later and it didn't.

      Had RMS been the shot caller Linux would be a curiosity today. People like him, while well intentioned, can't help but strangle babies in cradles in the name of their agenda. The kernel would be on GPL4 or 5 by now and about the only thing you might be able to use it for is a non-profit operation. The RMS mentality would have precluded set-tops, portables (binary blobs, DRM, etc.) the cloud and many other use cases. The best case would have been "for-profit" forks and then decline.

      Also, Linus doesn't suffer fools. Over the years there have been contributors that, while possessing some talent, were destructive to the process. Linus has reliably kicked them to the curb and kept them from ruining Linux development. It's a simple, unfortunate truth; some people don't play well with others and if they get a foothold in something they ruin it.

      These two aspects of Linus, good and firm judgement about policy and people, have ultimately been the most important because failure of either would have killed Linux long ago regardless of the early enthusiasm. That one person embodies the drive, talent and judgement to take Linux this far while protecting it from the bad ideas and fools that prevail is a small miracle.

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  7. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not sure I see your point. While the phrasing is perhaps a bit uncommon, there's nothing grammatically wrong with the headline.

  8. Author makes ignorant statement by rubycodez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    BSD did not in any sense fail or fizzle, it is ubiquitous in printers, network gear and other appliances. Funny Apple could take the Mach that GNU HURD mishandled and make a working core for their BSD variant. Stallman really does suck at leadership/management/implementation, idea man only.

    1. Re:Author makes ignorant statement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      "Funny NeXT could take the Mach that GNU HURD mishandled and make a working core for their BSD variant."

      There, FTFY.

  9. Re:WTF? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Funny

    cut them some slack. they're just doing the needful!

    --

    --
    "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  10. Re:Not heard of BSD by jfdavis668 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    386BSD wasn't available until 1992. Since Linus was making an OS to run on the 80386, he started his own in 1991.

  11. Easy by tsstahl · · Score: 2

    Slackware distribution. Drop the mic.

  12. I once asked Linus about this by GerryGilmore · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While working at Intel, we had a large Linux conference with Linus and a few other noteworthy OSS dudes. Afterwards, while we were all millng around, I found myself next to Linus Himself and asked this very question. My belief was that it was the GPL vs BSD license which forced all changes to at least be available for inclusion in the next version. Linux felt that it was more of a timing thing where Linux just kind of hit at the right time. Who really knows?

  13. Single case anecdote. by aussersterne · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I had been trying to afford a Unix installation at home as a CS student. All I knew was the Unix vendors. I was not aware of the social structure of the Unix world, various distributions, etc. I was crawling university surplus lots and calling Sun and DEC on the phone to try to find a complete package that I could afford (hardware + license and media). Nothing was affordable.

    I was also a heavy BBS and UUCP user at the time over a dial-up line. One day, I found an upload from someone described as "free Unix." It was Linux.

    I downloaded it, installed it on the 80386 hardware I was already using, and the rest is history. This was 1993.

    So in my case at least, Linux became the OS of choice becuase it had traveled in ways that the other free Unices didn't. It was simply available somewhere where I was.

    This isn't an explanation for why Linux ended up there instead of some other free *nix, of course, but by way of explaining the social diffusion of the actual files, I saw Linux distros as floppy disks around on BBSs and newsgroups for several years, with no hint of the others.

    For someone with limited network access (by today's standards), this meant that Linux was the obvious choice.

    As to why Linux was there and not the others—perhaps packaging and ease of installation had something to do with it? Without much effort, I recognized that the disks were floppy images and wrote out a floppy set. Booted from the first one, and followed my nose. There was no documentation required, and it Just Worked, at least as much as any bare-bones, home-grown CLI *nix clone could be said to Just Work.

    I had supported hardware, as it turned out, but then Linux did tend to support the most common commodity hardware at the time.

    My hunch is that Linux succeeded because it happened to have the right drivers (developed for what people had in their home PCs, rather than what a university lab might happen to have), and the right packaging (an end-user-oriented install that made it a simple, step-by-step, floppy-by-floppy process to get it up) while the other free *nix systems were less able to go from nothing to system without help and without additional hardware for most home and tiny lab users.

    For comparison, I tried Minix around the same time (I can't remember if it was before or after) and struggled mightily just to get it installed, before questions of its capabilities were even at issue. I remember my first Linux install having taken an hour or two, and I was able to get X up and running the same day. It took me much longer to get the disks downloaded and written. Minix, by comparison, took about a week of evenings, and at the end, I was disappointed with the result.

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:Single case anecdote. by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Funny

      and now, sun and DEC are both long gone and one of them, nearly entirely forgotton. (sad, I worked at both of those fine companies and was lucky to have had the chance to work at such places).

      linux is here, but vax and vms and alpha (and ultrix; I ran ultrix for a while) are all pretty much unknowns today.

      wonder how long linux still remain relevant? I don't see it going away, but then again, I said the same of sun and DEC (and SGI, lets throw them in there, too. yeah, I was there, too, lol.).

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  14. Licensing, mostly by swillden · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It was because Linux more or less worked, and people could use it and add to it because of the GPL. The competitors all had problems:

    * Minix was cheap but not free, and couldn't be redistributed with modifications. People worked around that by maintaining patch sets, but that was even more painful then than it is now (we have better tools now).
    * The BSDs were in a quagmire of legal uncertainty and competing claims. Nobody knew for sure if BSD was free or not, so everyone assumed it wasn't.
    * Xenix: Not free.
    * Microsoft: Are you kidding me?
    * SYSV: Not free
    * HURD: Didn't work, and had such an elegant architecture that it wasn't clear if it could ever work.

    That was the space when Linus Torvalds started hacking around (except HURD didn't even exist yet). If he'd been able to hack on Minix, he would have. But the license prevented it, so he took the opportunity to start his own. Lots of other people saw exactly the same situation and joined him in hacking on something that (a) worked, more or less and (b) they could hack on.

    It's not that Linux lucked out and the rest of the competition failed. There was no other competition that satisfied the requirements of being free and hackable. It was also important that Linus was an excellent Benevolent Dictator that gave people few reasons to fork. Actually, on that last point it's rather impressive that Linus is still in charge, even after it's become an incredibly valuable property, used and contributed to by lots of megacorps.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    1. Re:Licensing, mostly by swillden · · Score: 2

      Other than Xenix what do you mean by Microsoft

      Er, nothing actually. TFA mentioned "Microsoft's take on Unix", which I took to mean NT's stab at POSIX support, or maybe something else equally ridiculous. Looking at the article again, it actually says "Xenix, Microsoft's take on Unix". Not being more than vaguely aware of Xenix, I didn't realize it was bought by Microsoft and I took that text as two separate items in the list (should have paid closer attention to commas vs semi-colons).

      Also you forgot SCO if you are including commercial Unixes for 386

      Indeed. There I claim selective memory, driven by the massive stain on the Unix world left by SCO's successor-in-ownership, The SCO Group.

      Also one that gets forgotten about but was quite good in those early days was: Coherent

      I heard good things about Coherent back in the day, but never touched it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  15. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by rubycodez · · Score: 2

    Darl McBride has mod points, who knew?

  16. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by WWE-TicK · · Score: 2

    Why was this modded a Troll? Tanenbaum? Is that you?

  17. The kernel was tied to the culture by jbolden · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Fundamentally the BSDs and Linux were on par with one another in the mid 1990s. BSD386 was getting sued and that cost a year but it started ahead. Where Linux thrived though was it recruited from Unix users and Windows powerusers. Linux focused on the ability of Unix users the ability to run Unix at home, and focused on the ability for not particularly good system admins to setup servers. It aimed for ease of use. The BSDs conversely aimed to offer a Unix like environment for Intel/Western Digital Hardware; a free version of SCO.

    Then of course came the licensing issue. Linux was already ahead by 1997. But GPL allowed companies whose primary goal was not to sell software (or at least the software in question) to cooperate safely. It turned out those companies were larger supporters of free software than companies who were making extensions to base packages.

    I think the reason the Linux kernel was successful was that

    a) It was very good on par with the BDS kernels originally
    b) It was tied to the Linux culture.
    c) The GPL

    Linux culture beat the BSD culture. The GPL beat the BSD license. The kernel just went along for the ride originally, though of course it had to be good enough to not hamper Linux-OS. After the initial ride the commercial interest led to greater development for the Linux kernel than other kernels which led to it fitting more uses better and more commercial development and interest.... A self feeding cycle that does make the kernel a winning point for Linux-OS.

    1. Re:The kernel was tied to the culture by michael_cain · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Consider the following anecdote:

      Around 1994 or 1995 I was starting an applied research project that needed an oddball sort of network widget. I e-mailed Alan Cox, whose group was handling most of the Linux network staff at the time, describing what I was trying to do. I got an e-mail back the next day that was basically: "Sounds cool! Ethernet sockets might be able to do the job (draft documentation attached). If not, let me know and we can discuss the best place for you to add a hook to the IP stack." Ethernet sockets were sufficient; I had a basic version of the widget up and running after a couple of long weeks; it was impressive enough that mgmt let me run with.

      No way any of the other kernel projects were going to treat me that well.

  18. Thank AT&T lawsuit by Billly+Gates · · Score: 3, Informative

    We would probably be using FreeBSD by now.

    I know because I remember BSD and BSDi back in the 1990s in highschool for running BBSes. MkLinux I kind of heard of but didn't know exactly what it was until the late 1990s when Linux was the only OS.

    FreeBSD was the new myspace and momentum was on GNU/Linux at this stage. In tech you need to be at the right place at the right time. Linux was there when the world wide web became available to the public and BSD unix came out during hte exact same time.

    1. Re:Thank AT&T lawsuit by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      If I would have Mod points.
      FreeBSD was/is a good alternative to Linux. It was more mature... However AT&T legal stuff made it a little more risky to go in the direction of Unix. But Linux wasn't Unix, but it was enough like Unix to get the advantage.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  19. which begs the question.... by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

    Why was Sanders the Colonel that succeeded?

  20. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason why Linux eclipsed Minix is obvious, since Minix was never more than an educational tool. But why did Linux triumph over BSD? In the early 1990s, FreeBSD was considerably better, more stable, and had a more liberal license. Here are my theories:

    1. FreeBSD required a hardware FPU, at a time when many computers didn't have them.
    2. The AT&T lawsuit put a lot of uncertainty over BSD.
    3. The user communities were very different. Linux users were very open and helpful to newbies. BSD forums were hostile to anyone that didn't already know everything.

  21. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Lord+Apathy · · Score: 4, Informative

    3. The user communities were very different. Linux users were very open and helpful to newbies. BSD forums were hostile to anyone that didn't already know everything.

    I will go with this. When I reported a bug in the Amiga version of bsd that was causing issues in machines with 4mb of memory. The response from the bsd admins was "well get more memory." I'm intoning it politer here than they responded with too. I interpreted it as "fuck off", which I did.

    On the other hand the lead developer of the Amiga 68K kernel, I can't find his name, was very friendly in his emails to me.

    --

    Supporting World Peace Through Nuclear Pacification

  22. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "more liberal" license might be the problem. While the license for the actual code you get is quite liberal, it doesn't propagate. The GPL ensures that there is always more GPLed code, once you start out from a GPL base. The BSD license is in some way an evolutionary dead end, because it is so liberal that it does not guarantee its own propagation. If I want to contribute to a project and want a guarantee that in turn, I have access to the contributions of people who are using my code, I can't rely on the BSD license. A BSD license means that the only development you are guaranteed to get is your own development. Anything else is just by chance. Your code might be useful for lots of other people, but you stand empty. There is no ROI for your development work if you publish something under BSD license. If you publish the same code under GPL, and even a single other developer shows some interest and adds something to your work, you are guaranteed to get rewarded by additional functionality.

    --
    .sig: Sique *sigh*
  23. Re:The GPL by jcdr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Systemd is a collection of small executables each with a precise goal, in line with the UNIX philosophy.
    Do a "ls -alSrh /lib/systemd/systemd-* /usr/bin/systemd-*" if you want to verify this fact.

  24. My completely unbiased opinion by TeknoHog · · Score: 2

    Due to latitudinal issues, everything that happens in Finland is cool. For instance, our babies eat your marines for breakfast.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  25. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by mark-t · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1. FreeBSD required a hardware FPU, at a time when many computers didn't have them.

    For me, with a '386 at the time that I first heard of Linux, and with no fpu coprocessor, that was a key factor... although not the defining one, because I was soon going to be getting a '387 anyways. For myself, the deciding factor at the time was that FreeBSD did not support any sort of multiple OS system, where with Linux, I could boot from floppy which would then transfer control over to the hard drive after the kernel was loaded (or after lilo came out, even load the kernel directly from the hard drive), and leave my DOS partitions and the hard drive boot sector completely unaltered.

  26. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by steveha · · Score: 5, Informative

    Linux is not a copy of Minix, the code is quite different.

    Yes. Linux and MINIX are both *NIX-style kernels. But MINIX uses a microkernel design while Linux is a monokernel.

    Professor Tanenbaum famously told Linus "Be thankful you are not my student. You would not get a high grade for such a design :-)"

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/comp.os.minix/wlhw16QWltI%5B1-25%5D

    So anyone who claims that Linux is a "copy" of MINIX really doesn't know what they are talking about.

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  27. Re:The GPL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Systemd is a collection of small executables each with a precise goal, in line with the UNIX philosophy.
    Do a "ls -alSrh /lib/systemd/systemd-* /usr/bin/systemd-*" if you want to verify this fact.

    And how many of them are dependent on other systemd-* or multiple other systemd-* for functionality or require the systemd PID 1?

  28. Because Waterfall does not work by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 2

    At the heart of it, kernel development seems to always have been very YAGNI and agile, while all others were thinking about great concepts and not producing any real-life results.

  29. Re:The GPL by tristes_tigres · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Well, no it isn't. Those "small executables" can not function outside the systemd infrastructure. Moreover, systemd people keep trying to expand the range of software that will not build on non-systemd platforms. Please stop your shilling.

  30. Re:The GPL by tristes_tigres · · Score: 3, Informative

    Try "all of them"

  31. Re: Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Kishin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    He built a teaching OS, a cool ass distributed OS (Amoeba), a good WAN solution on top of it (Globe), and much later the self-healing UNIX-comcompatible Minix 3. That was all while he taught thousands of students how to build shit right. Andy is anything but lazy.

  32. Don't break user space! by duckintheface · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you read the Linux Kernel Mailing List http://lkml.org/ for a while, you will see why Linux was successful. Over and over again, Linus Torvalds over-rides the antics of his minions and explains to them (again) that the changes they made must be backed out because they break something that users actually need. Linux is elegant and beautiful, but not just because it's a work of art. Linux is the most functional piece of code in existence. It is the beauty of function.

    --
    "He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
    1. Re:Don't break user space! by amRadioHed · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Don't forget Mac's were at least as unreliable as Windows back when Linux was catching on. Mac OS X only beat Windows XP by a few months.

      --
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    2. Re:Don't break user space! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Monolithic kernel. You have a somewhat valid argument there. There are modules that I just don''t use, that are routinely compiled into the kernel. Simple solution: Compile it yourself, without the modules. Strip the kernel down to exactly what you need, and compile it native to get rid of all the 32-bit support. You're left with a monolithic kernel, of course, but the monolith is much smaller.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:Don't break user space! by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 2

      Monolithic kernel. You have a somewhat valid argument there. There are modules that I just don''t use, that are routinely compiled into the kernel. Simple solution: Compile it yourself, without the modules. Strip the kernel down to exactly what you need, and compile it native to get rid of all the 32-bit support. You're left with a monolithic kernel, of course, but the monolith is much smaller.

      But, but, but, then I have to compile it myself, do it myself? See, that is the root of my complains about monolithic kernels. Where is that damned violin when I need it :P

    4. Re:Don't break user space! by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 2

      Drinks kool-aid?

      Linux is a monolithic system. Not so great, read efficient in a distributed space.

      Reason Linux was successful:

      Timing: Everyone was fed up on FOSS OSes.

      blah, blah, piss, piss, diss, diss.

      Linux worked, Linux still works. You can and could submit changes and they would either be accepted or rejected. They are the reasons Linux is successful. Sure the piss on the furniture posters can point to obscure kernels that theoretically are "better" - but, ironically, they miss the point - it is the most widely used kernel. So all the reasons other kernels are "better", are wrong.

      Pointing to timing is like claiming that Google, eBay, Ffffacebook, and Amazon all succeeded because they were a better idea, or just the right timing - which is also bullshit or other good ideas wouldn't have failed. They all succeeded because they were "good" (not best) ideas, the timing wasn't terrible, and the projects controlled the engines that drove the projects (Open Source). Same reason Linux the kernel and various userlands, that bum weasels conflate as the same thing, succeeds. Google, IBM, and others "get it" (why re-invent the wheel when long-term support and testing are by far the biggest part of development costs?).

  33. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by squiggleslash · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think the AC was just confused as Linux's origins are related to MINIX, even if it isn't a clone or shares any code.

    From memory, Linux was Torvald's response to the fact MINIX remained a 16 bit operating system. Impatient, Torvald's created the Linux kernel presumably in part because he wanted to create a kernel, but in part to solve the missing 386 Minix issue.

    The two were related, but no code from MINIX was present in Linux. As an example, the original Linux file system was a re-implementation of the MINIX file system. Linux's ext family of file systems came later. Early Linux based systems ran the MINIX userland, but this was replaced early on with GNU. It was the replacement with GNU that meant Linux could legally leave the MINIX community and become the kernel of a standalone operating system.

    IIRC Linus's original announcement was on the MINIX mailing lists too.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  34. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I would add two more to that list.

    Distro size. Distros at the time fit on 3-5 high density floppies less if you stripped out some niceties. BSD took 20 and splitting it apart was not obvious.

    Download that over a 2400 baud modem. I did. Linux was done in a few hours. BSD took longer.

    Secondly XFree86 catapulted it to the top of the pile. A mostly working x11 stack? Yes please.

  35. Right place, right time. by Spazmania · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tozzi overthinks it in the article. The kernel succeeded by being in the right place in the right time and then continuously being good enough that there was insufficient reason for change.

    Linux, the OS not the kernel, was the first mostly complete Unix available on a college student's budget that would install on hardware the college student mostly already had. Right place, right time. Hurd didn't exist in any usable form, Minix and Solaris were $$ and the *BSD's didn't start to release for a year or two later.

    Fast forward four years and when those graduating college students met the Internet bubble, Linux was the server OS they knew. Right place, right time.

    Byeond that it was a game of, "don't eff it up." That's where Torvalds' pragmatism came in to play.

    --
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  36. Re:The GPL by tristes_tigres · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Aaand that is simply false. Why systemd shills won't just stop lying, I wonder?

  37. Re:The GPL by tristes_tigres · · Score: 2

    You are changing the subject. "The whole initscripts mess" may or may not work outside the init infrastructure. But each individual script will, which is precisely the point. On the other hand, none of systemd components will work outside systemd. So please stop your shilling.

  38. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by fisted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The only difference that results in (resulted in, it's getting better lately) is that BSD-licensed code gets used, while GPL'ed code doesn't get used, for commercial purposes. Furthermore, getting upstream to add your changes is cheaper since you no longer need to maintain them yourself, so companies still have good reasons to contribute back.
    The OpenBSD people's take on the matter is:

    People sometimes ask if it bothers us that our free work is put into commercial products. The answer is, we would prefer that our good code be widely used rather than have commercial software vendors reimplement and create badly coded or incompatible alternative solutions to already solved problems. For example, it is likely that SSH is a widely used protocol due to this freedom, much more widely used than if restrictions had been placed on how people used the OpenSSH code. If a free SSH solution was not available for vendors to use (in their multitude of rapidly developed products), they would have written or purchased some crummy off-the shelf version instead.

    Now, about

    If you publish the same code under GPL, and even a single other developer shows some interest and adds something to your work, and in turn decides to distribute that to others, you may get rewarded by additional functionality.

    FTFY. It's kind of important to note that as long as you don't plan on distributing your modified version (and in many cases, why would you?) , you're not required to, well, distribute your modified sources.
    Then, many modifications will just be horrible hacks to scratch some immediate itch, which you wouldn't at all want in your source base, so GPLing stuff is far from providing a guaranteed enhancement return, even if there is interest.

  39. Re:The GPL by jcdr · · Score: 2

    And what is precisely the point to have a initscript running outside sysv-rc + sysvinit? To have a simple script running? Whoow! Such a great feature.... Seriously, did you think that a machine running systemd is not able to run a simple script? The reality is that initscripts need sysv-rc to boot the machine.

    By the way, systemd is compatible with sysv-rc so what are you complaining about ?

  40. Re:The GPL by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Did you even know that almost all of the SysV init scripts call out to system-wide scripts? Try running SysV init scripts just by themselves, without having the monolithic SysV init directories in your path. You can't. Ever. Does one thing without dependencies my ass!

    For example on Fedora:


    # grep -r '. /etc/init.d/functions' /etc/rc.d/ 2> /dev/null | wc -l
    210

    This shows how little you understand the arguments you're making, and the commonly proposed solution of using SysV actually achieves it.

    The funny part, of course, is that with systemd the start/stop scripts/programs are indeed standalone in many cases, and the best practices will lead to that naturally. Most of the ones that require systemd only require it because they're using a compatibility layer that calls out to the old script.

  41. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by sg_oneill · · Score: 5, Informative

    No it wasn't that. Andrew Tannenbaum had no intention of using Minux as a general purpose OS kernel like people wanted it to be. He wanted it to be a teaching kernel and thats all. He didn't accept patches for the most part because he wanted it to remain simple enough for an undergrad student to completely understand (I know that because my WANG hard drive patch couldnt be accepted because of that very reason). Even patches to add networking where rejected.

    --
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  42. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The paranoia around the license might be something; the effects your describe is a misconception on your part, but it is a shared misconception, so it does affect people's behavior.

    However, what I think is most important was initial hardware support.

    FreeBSD and Linux got a different amount of users in the early times, when Linux had more low-end hardware support (IDE disks, missing FPU, low end network drivers by Donald Becker), and gained a lot of marketshare when the ATT lawsuit was happening.

    After that, Linux and FreeBSD grew at the same exponential rate for many years, with FreeBSD having the same marketshare. This changed around Linux 2.6. There are several things that happened around then which may account for the loss of FreeBSD marketshare. For example, Matt Dillon (FreeBSD VM system maintainer) helped Linux implement a VM system that worked about as well as FreeBSDs. This had been one of the major selling points of BSD vs Linux. There are also network effects that started being really significant for Linux, as Linux became bigger than all the other Unixes combined. And FreeBSD kept the port system very similar to how it had originally been developed in the mid 1990s, while open source became more intertwined. This made FreeBSD harder to update compared to many Linux distributions, and became seriously annoying around that time.

    Since many things happened around the same time, it's hard to pinpoint the exact reason for the divergence.

  43. Re:The GPL by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    His point is that 'init scripts' are only scripts......you don't need 'system V' or anything to run them; all you need is bash. Even systemd can run init scripts, or you can run them from the command line.

    However, init can't start the system without the scripts, so in that way systemV depends on the scripts, not the other way around. The point is trivial like splitting hairs, but technically true.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  44. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Snotnose · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Back in '94/'95 when Linux was new I asked Alan Cox a couple questions via email, which he replied. Made some changes to the driver to the ethernet chip we were using, he took those and thanked me. No experience with BSD so I can't contrast/compare.

  45. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by theArtificial · · Score: 2

    According to this by a near super majority the most popular license type on Github is MIT. Combining the BSD2 and 3 licenses makes the super majority of licenses extremely liberal.

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  46. Re:The GPL by phantomfive · · Score: 2

    The argument is 'splitting hairs' because it's getting at the wrong point. The problem with systemd isn't that the init scripts (or unit files) depend on systemd......it doesn't matter if sys5 init scripts can't run without sys5 scripts or whatever. No one cares about that.

    The point is that cron or apache or qmail can all be started with any init system. Systemd utils can't be started without a specific init system, which means logind (and by implication Gnome) can't be started without systemd. That is definitely against the unix way.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  47. Re:The GPL by fisted · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So on Fedora, there are (at most (*)) 210 occurances of init script sourcing one particular system V helper script which, judging by the name, defines common shell functions used by multiple init scripts. What exactly is your point here? The content of /etc/init.d/functions should be replicated 210 times in each of the respective scripts rather than being sourced? With that idea of good design, it doesn't surprise me you're a systemd proponent.

    Why do i have the feeling that your real intention was to make a casual reader believe that there were 210 "system-wide" scripts (whatever the fuck thats supposed to mean in this context, what is /not/ system wide at init time?) littered all over the place that the init scripts would depend on. Nice try.

    And after failing that hard...

    This shows how little you understand the arguments you're making

    which leaves me thinking about pots and kettles.

    (*) of course the actual command is a failure too, since that period is a wildcard and no boundary is given either. So even a comment somewhere in a script reading "# by the way, we would never source /etc/init.d/functions" would mistakenly be included in your already pointless measurement. For the record, a competent AC would have used

    grep -lr '^\W*\.\W\W*/etc/init.d/functions' /etc/rc.d/ | wc -l

    (note the -l) rather than

    grep -r '. /etc/init.d/functions' | wc -l

    Not that the result is anything meaningful.

  48. Re:The GPL by jcdr · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The point is that you compare a simple script with a systemd-* binary, complaining that you can't run any systemd-* binaries without the systemd infrastructure.

    What you fails to understand is that the equivalent of init scripts in systemd is not the systemd-* binary but a unit configuration file. If you want to compare a systemd-* binary, take a binary that provide the same kind of service. What you will find is that the usual code (or libraries) in the traditional service application is replaced by a more standardized API in the systemd-* application. For example, instead of depending on libdaemon, the application will depend on libsystemd. See https://github.com/systemd/sys...

    At the end systemd will reduce the number of dependencies required by the applications that use his API compared to an application that will try to provides the same features without the libsystemd API. From the architectural point of view this is a good move.

  49. Re:The GPL by dbIII · · Score: 2

    Systemd is a collection of small executables each with a precise goal

    To put Lennart's name on things that have not had his name on it before :)
    Apart from a tiny portion of the project devoted to starting things in parallel instead of sequentially (and done by people who didn't not seem to take race conditions seriously hence their shiny new binary logs getting corrupted into unreadability), it's a "solution" to a non-problem.
    I've had a machine this week not boot and lock up hard for hours because systemd hung the entire system trying to work out what a wireless mouse dongle was - it's nowhere near ready for serious use.

  50. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by metamatic · · Score: 2

    Yeah. I was there at the time, writing patches for the Minix kernel... Linus specifically wanted support for 386 protected memory and virtual memory. AST wouldn't do it, because it would mean Minix wouldn't run on 68000-based systems like my Atari ST. So Linus went away and hacked together his own 386-only replacement kernel over a weekend.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  51. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by metamatic · · Score: 2

    Please tell me how did BSD win from OS X using it as a code base. They don't give back, and attempts at cooperation ended up wasting some time of BSD developers.

    BSD got its automatic live self-defragmenting code from OS X. Then there's libdispatch/GCD, LLVM, and so on.

    --
    GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
  52. Re:The GPL by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

    And all of that existed with upstart, daemontools, many worked with inetd, and in general many other systems solved the same problem. Systemd's danger is its insistence on doing _everything_, including replacing logging, DHCP, NTP, and numerous other already working and well understood components. Its proponents have made clear that they intend to replace all of /etc.

    Discussing systemd as if it were only an init script replacement is missing out on why people are upset about it.

  53. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by savuporo · · Score: 2

    Mainly because Javascript and code on demand execution model. Javascript libraries with GPL are a non starter.

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  54. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm a bit surprised that anybody is puzzled about this because I thought it was obvious too. I guess it just goes to show that I'm getting old. For those who weren't around at the time, my recollection is pretty much exactly as you have it, but I suppose I can elaborate a little bit.

    1. The FPU issue was definitely important, but to be honest by the time the 486 became popular I don't think the Linux camp was tremendously bigger than the FreeBSD camp. I know that when I got a 486 I was torn between the two and actually was leaning towards FreeBSD because I used BSD at work. But I chose Linux because...

    2. The lawsuit is probably the most important issue. It was just enough of a swing to give momentum to Linux. I remember when the MCC distribution came out, it was more convenient to go with Linux than FreeBSD and I pretty much stayed there after that. My impression was that Linux was many people's second choice and that a lot of people were waiting to see how the lawsuit turned out. By the time it was over, Linux had such a good infrastructure that it was hard to think about switching. I think the first time I started thinking about switching again when when FreeBSD ports came out (which Wikipedia says happened in 94).

    3. The user communities issue is probably the most overlooked, but I think it is important. Personally, I don't think that there was *that* much to choose from between the Linux and FreeBSD people -- at that time if you were used to using some kind of Posix system you were already fairly hard core. You had to build the kernel yourself to support whatever hardware you had. I did that for years.

    Where you see the differences in approach is between Linux/BSD and HURD. I wanted to work on the HURD because I had done a project on Mach in university. My memory is hazy about the details, but when I approached the maintainer I was told in no uncertain terms that help from someone as unaccomplished as me was not welcomed. I really believe that Linux was so successful mainly because Linus just accepted patches (and even thanked people!). It was very, very, very easy to work on. That low barrier to entry attracted some really good people and things took off.

    It is something I that I have taken with me throughout my whole career, even when working on non-free software. It's easy to have an elitist attitude and to think that you must protect the software from the unwashed masses. You feel that you must restrict development to a few blessed people who you know won't screw everything up. Having a more optimistic strategy where you assume people are good actors until they prove themselves to be the opposite is much more successful -- especially for free software.

    Having said that, there are of course times when certain people exhaust even Linus's patience and I am impressed with how he chooses to draw the line. It is definitely something I wish I could get away with in my day job. Alas, those kinds of decisions are often not possible for me.

  55. Re:Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I was a CS student at UC Berkeley when Linux was first announced on Usenet... I also think that the ease of sharing a hard-disk with existing Windows installs, the initial focus on x86, and the familiarity of the basic DOS partitioning scheme were hugely important. The relative homogeneity of the PC platform also allowed a friendly community to bootstrap very quickly. By comparison, the "home team" BSD variants were already fragmented across many different CPU and system architectures, with much more specific hardware requirements or much more do-it-yourself work to bootstrap a new system.

    Even at Berkeley, it was easier to self-help via the Internet to install Linux, than to get local BSD zealots to help you bootstrap a personal BSD machine. So, a large number of my Berkeley classmates adopted Linux to actually do our class work on personal machines, while only the most masochistic of my peers were still using or trying to use *BSD. We used a wide variety of Unix flavors on the servers and workstations in school labs, but when we went home we often found that our little Linux boxes were just as fast or faster for doing our actual school work. It being Berkeley, the BSD users certainly supported each other and liked to deride Linux, but they were better at turning away new users than they were at BSD advocacy.

    The Linux community was already growing rapidly by the time we started seeing Linux getting ported to other CPU and system architectures. I had both a 486 PC and a DEC Alpha running Linux on my own LAN and connected to the Internet via SLIP before I graduated. Within a couple more years, people like me were now out advocating its use in companies, universities, and national labs. The truth behind the "Beowulf" cluster meme was also significant, as some small fraction of government funding was going into improving Linux by leaps and bounds instead of all going into the extravagant margins of SGI, Cray, Sun, etc. We quickly improved networking, commodity SMP support, and GPU acceleration that made Linux relevant in many high-performance tasks.

    Ironically, think about how the Android platform is now fragmented for many different phone chips and models with very different sub-communities, tools, and download sites. This is how the BSD variants felt back in those early days, while Linux was much more standardized and approachable! This is also the reason that I hope mobile platforms do not kill off the PC, as this seems a huge step backwards for future students.

  56. Re: Cuz Minix Dude Was A Old Guy by DamnOregonian · · Score: 2

    His statement seemed quite generalized with OpenSSH/SSL cited as an example.
    I personally don't partake in the license wars, but I don't think the success of any particular piece of software was tied to the license choice.

    OpenSSH is an excellent piece of software with lots of excellent people working on it, as is Linux. As to why Linux succeeded more than BSD? I couldn't say. I've worked in both of the kernels, and they're equally heinous (as kernels are usually wont to be)

    They've got their own lists of idiosyncrasies, and both do most things pretty damn well, and a few things each pretty damn excellently. I think it mostly comes down to the position of Linux grabbing the niche of Unix on commodity hardware before BSD had a solid offering, thus getting most of the developer mindshare. That kind of momentum is hard to compete against- because it's not easy working in multiple kernels. You get in a mindset that set of working knowledge that is highly tailored to the one you're working on.

    Switching back and forth has always been a pain to me from the coding aspect, and I've never paid a second of time thinking about the license. I'm fine with both license models, really.

    Disclaimer: I professionally work in the Linux kernel, as well as amateur kernel-level and below firmware hacking for embedded devices running many kernels. I've also done amateur work in BSD kernels.