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Gates, Zuckerberg Promising Same Jobs To US Kids and Foreign H-1B Workers?

Posted by samzenpus on from the you-get-a-job-and-you-get-a-job-and-you-get-a-job dept.

theodp writes: Over at the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg-bankrolled Code.org, they're using the number of open computing jobs in each state to convince parents of the need to expand K-12 CS offerings so their kids can fill those jobs. Sounds good, right? But at the same time, the Gates and Zuckerberg-bankrolled FWD.org PAC has taken to Twitter, using the number of open "STEM" jobs in each state to convince politicians of the need to expand the number of H-1B visas so foreign workers can fill those jobs. While the goal of Microsoft's 'two-pronged' National Talent Strategy is to kill two birds [K-12 CS education and H-1B visas] with one crisis, is it fair for organizations backed by many of the same wealthy individuals to essentially promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers?

33 of 249 comments (clear)

  1. heh by bigCstyle · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yeah, more stem workers = lower pay (supply and demand) I am sure this is all completely legit

    1. Re:heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      As an actual economist, I can safely say that your explanation of labor markets is 100% bollocks.

    2. Re: heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Your answer shows that you are "an actual economist" indeed!

    3. Re:heh by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 2

      No, it's only 50% bollocks. Labor markets do work like other markets.

      The important thing is: Employers often expand their business based on workers available, so supply creates its own demand.

      That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.

      So, if we only had 100 programmers in the US, they'd be paid better than pop stars. However, we wouldn't have much of a software industry, because most companies couldn't afford to hire a programmer at those salaries; they'd simply not use computers.

      On the other hand, if programmers were as plentiful as Mexican farm laborers or nannies, most small businesses and many households could afford to hire them to write custom software for them. The average salary of programmers would go way down, although the 100 programmers at the top would still be paid very well. And society as a whole would be a lot better off.

    4. Re:heh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Completely true.
      Let's give an anecdotal example to support this:
      Me.
      I am a glazier and ironworker by trade. Building large / institutional and commercial buildings is my experience and early background.
      I live in Edmonton, Alberta.

      In the 80's while running a commercial glass company, my hobby was mini and early personal computers.
      In the early 90's there was more demand for my skills in computing than in construction, so I opened a business supplying and manufacturing mass storage devices.
      In the mid 2000's I was faced with 2 crises:
      First off the fluctuating exchange rates cost us a lot of money.
      Secondly, the "Chinafication" of the industry killed off all the North American hardware companies.
      Including mine. I am sure that low labour costs had nothing to do with that..

      Fortunately for me, my original trades now pay over $60 per hour, due to guess what?
      Shortage of skilled labour.

    5. Re:heh by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.

      Except when it doesn't. "Supply increases volume" only when then suppliers _believe_ that there is a profit available, and excess supply often saturates the market. Otherwise, all the empty storefronts I see on one block on my way to work would be filled with active hair salons, unlike the three competing salons on that block that are all going out of business.

    6. Re: heh by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nope. Much like supply and demand doesn't much affect gasoline and milk, it also doesn't greatly impact jobs. This is so common there's even a term for it. Inelastic demand. What happens with many inelastic goods is not changes in demand, but removal of demand. When you raise milk by 5%, people still buy about the same amount. But if you raise the price by 500%, people will buy soy milk, or otherwise replace the good with one that's sufficiently similar.

      The same happens in jobs. People will move (though not nearly enough to satisfy most models), and employers will move. Jobs will be ended, and new jobs created. The changing of the job market will come before the supply and demand moves the job that much. Jobs will never pay below minimum wage, and never above their value for the company (excepting management). So supply and demand can't fully define the market for jobs.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    7. Re:heh by sjames · · Score: 2

      And then supply would collapse because nobody in their right mind would invest more in learning to program than they would ever earn actually doing it.

      Or, they would have their welfare cut off until they got a real job.

    8. Re:heh by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > There is no such thing as "excess supply of labor": if labor is cheap enough

      I'm sorry to contradict you, but _where_ are you getting this nonsense? "Labor costs" that drop below a sustenance level kill workers, and even prevent the workers from participating in the local economy. Between those two limitations, and all the others, one can certainly have an "excess supply of labor". It's especially apparent in seasonal farm labor when drought or blight ruins the crops, and it was certainly a problem for winter food supplies in harsh climates.

      Please, actually work as a farm worker, a fast food attendant, a cab driver, or try to feed a family on a minimum wage before you make such absurd claims,

      > The reason those store fronts are empty is because your town/city is keeping the cost of doing business high

      This is, once again, complete nonsense. "The town/city" is not keeping the expenses high as a matter of tax or licensing policy. There simply isn't enough street traffic to support so many vendors, especially when modern consumers so easily order goods online from around the world. And for the service industries, such as hair and nail salons, they need parking, foot traffic, and customers who can attend their salons when the businesses are open.

      According to your stated theory "That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.". It ignores the _caps_ on volume of business, caps due to capital supply limitations, due to available numbers of customers and frequency of service, and due to the minimum costs of keeping the workers alive.

      Again, I don't know where you're getting these ideas. They're refuted by the most casual reviews of economic disasters, such as the Great Depression in the USA, or famines such as the Irish Potato Famine or the mass starvations of North Korea of the 1990's. There was no "labor shortage", people would work for less than a survival wage or survival diet and starve to _death_ as they struggled to outlast the famines and poverty.

    9. Re:heh by sjames · · Score: 2

      We've seen right here on /. about various IT people being displaced by H1-Bs, mot supplemented with.

      If there was an actual shortage, we'd see ageism go away kinda like in the run-up to y2k where there was an actual shortage of skilled COBOL programmers and they were enticing people back out of management.

      We would also see the requires X years experience in X-3 year old technology requirements go away. We wouldn't see lawyers offering employers advice on how to taylor job postings to make sure they get an H1-B.

    10. Re: heh by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Uhh, have you been paying attention to oil prices and the reasons for the decline?

      Commodities are not magically insulated from the law of supply and demand.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    11. Re: heh by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      Did you miss the countless headlines about OPEC increasing production for the stated purpose of lowering prices?! Quite successfully I might add. Conservation is a red herring, incidentally, whatever improvements we make with technology are more than offset by third world development (*cough* China *cough*)

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  2. For the Needs and Pleasure of the Wealthy by ohnocitizen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Its hard not to be cynical when this is how the wealthy use their influence in a society that actively caters to them. I'm glad Slashdot keeps reporting on these issues, and I hope we will support and punish as appropriate candidates who oppose H1B. I hope we will have our own movement and do our own work in as many different social avenues as we can to defeat attempts to make things harder for us for the sole reason of lining the pockets of the wealthy more than they already are.

  3. Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If Gates and Zuckerberg have their way -- all US tech workers will compete directly with foreigners for their jobs. In the words of FWD.us "Major Contributor" Lars Dalgaard:

    "Nobody's going to hold you up and carry you around...If you're not going to work hard enough to be qualified to get the job...well then, you don't deserve the job."

    And part of WORKING HARD ENOUGH is WORKING CHEAP ENOUGH.

    Remember kids -- you got give us MORE FOR LESS if you want to make it in today's Globalized Economy. Just being a US Citizen doesn't mean you deserve to work in the US. Why should we "Carry You Around" if we can import workers willing to work for the equivalent wage they'd get in Bangalore while working in San Jose and will even offer to CARRY US AROUND the corporate campus in Rickshaws and Litters in their off hours?

    This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future

    1. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by Njorthbiatr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's strange that businesses oppose raising wages. It's like the prisoner's dilemma and everyone wants to screw everyone else over.

      Look, you'll pad profits for a short while (maybe), but in the long run it's detrimental to the entire economy since the bulk of the population ends up with less spending power. If corporations were forced to pay their workers fair rates everyone would benefit.

    2. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By that time he's had his stay, pumped the stock value and received his golden parachute. Why should he give a fuck about anything you mentioned?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think it's time we teach our kids valuable skills they'll need in the future. How to hold and use a rifle. How to tie a hangman's knot. How to spot a manager trying to blend into the crowd...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by fermion · · Score: 3, Interesting
      15 years ago many tech workers screamed the libertarian anti-union songs about how a new economy, not based on old rules like profit and loss and robber barons, would create a magical world in which workers and bosses were equal, and all would be fairly treated, and no governement intervention would be required. Then the bubble burst and people lost jobs and workers had to pay huge taxes on stock incentives that were now worthless and everyone started crying about H1B taking their jobs, just like the lowly auto manufacturer workers. It became a time where there was less difference between a tech worker and bluer collar worker. They were all semi-skilled workers

      Here is the thing. Apple, Facebook, MS, are all employers just like any other employer. They want to acquire employees at the least cost. They want to pay the least they can. they don't want people to leave. If this can happen with local employees, that is great. They are cheaper to acquire. But local employees know how much it costs in the US and can leave at any time. That means they cost most in the long term. It would be one thing if local employees could be contract, but the courts have said they can't if they don't have control over the schedule. It would be one thing if local employees could be tied to a job, but courts has awarded money for anti-poaching schemes.

      So what is an employer to do. H1B is a good solution. Workers don't know how much the cost of living is, and is likely to be willing to live a much lower standard of living for a certain amount of work. Workers are much harder to poach. Workers are much less likely to complain about an employer violating the laws of the US.

      So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees. There are not enough US kids who are willing to do a days work that also have mad technical skills. And no, it is not wrong to encourage US kids to go to school and learn the latest technical skills. Even if they do not use them directly, and really many college graduates don't work in their field of study, these skills are useful not matter what. It is also wrong to live in a country where we think that workers do not have a right and need to organize in cartels just like employers do.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    5. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 2

      And yes, on the corollary, I should be able to go to China and India and compete with the local kids for their jobs. Unfortunately their draconian regulations make it extremely tough to do so, even if the language barrier is not an issue.

      --
      New Economic Perspectives
    6. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by I4ko · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Your post would have been funny if it was not informative. But alas it is. And this is exactly why I as a foreign H1-B holder am planning to leave the US. If you make it so bad, that I get a batter deal back at home, I have no reason to even want to come, especially not planning to have and raise children in what the US has become, but people are only now starting to realize. The sad part is.... after almost 6 years, thinking clearly through it, I already had a better deal back home and I wasted my best years for nothing. Even being a farmer in China, a worker on an oil rig in the sea, or a shepherd in New Zealand now seems preferable than being a H1 in US; and those are not easy jobs. You know, some place that does not thing only for the profit and for the price of the stocks at the next quarter board meeting. Publicly traded companies are the doom of all. No public company would do something out of pride of a job or a product well done or out of idealism. If it was a private one, perhaps 1 in 10000 would still care about the product, the service or the society they are rending it to.

    7. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees.

      Yeah it is because it's unethical. I want cheaper workers, but I'm not going to sell my ever living soul to get them.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    8. Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America by I4ko · · Score: 2

      Any they don.t give a flying donkey's ass about the long run. All the care about is the next quarterly board and stockholder meeting. You know, they care to look good in front of the people that employ them, and hang on long enough to negotiate the next golden parachute.

  4. Re:Its the same issue either way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "The issue is lack of skilled workers"...

    You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."

  5. Re:Theo, about your rhetoric by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.

    Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.

  6. I always wondered about that by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2
    Why on earth are we trying toteach coding to everyone, and obliterating the the sexual discrimination in STEM, only to have no jobs for the newly trained US citizens?

    Seems like getting more people trained in the art of making buggy whips and sealing wax.

    --
    The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    1. Re:I always wondered about that by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      So we no longer have to pay engineers like they produce anything meaningful. Just because it takes brains to do that job doesn't mean they have to earn more than burger flippers, ya know?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:I always wondered about that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wouldn't worry. The truth is that you can't train someone to have an aptitude for something. There's a strong undercurrent of positivism in modern educational dogma: "You can be anything you want!" The sad truth is: no you can't. Everyone has certain aptitudes and certain potential. The current initiatives like code.org will turn out people who can put a few things together, follow recipes they find online, etc. But at the end of the day, it won't increase the number of people who have an aptitude to excel in the field. Also, there's the interest factor. Some people consider software development tedious and boring. These initiatives won't change that.

    3. Re:I always wondered about that by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't worry. The truth is that you can't train someone to have an aptitude for something. There's a strong undercurrent of positivism in modern educational dogma: "You can be anything you want!" The sad truth is: no you can't. Everyone has certain aptitudes and certain potential.

      Isn't it odd? Seems like a person having a talent for something is somehow bad today. But today we seem to believe that anyone can be Einstein if only we apply ourselves.

      That kind of thinking might even be part of the problems that some young people have with depression these days. When they try and fail the you can be anything you want mentality has only one person to blame - you. Well sorta, but I don't want to get in that issue again.

      The current initiatives like code.org will turn out people who can put a few things together, follow recipes they find online, etc. But at the end of the day, it won't increase the number of people who have an aptitude to excel in the field. Also, there's the interest factor. Some people consider software development tedious and boring. These initiatives won't change that.

      I liken it to one part of my work, which is 3-D animation. I've had people tell me they want ot learn how to design objects and "do 3-D". It usually takes about 15 minutes for them to remember something else they had to do.

      It's similar to coding in that it takes a metric ton of attention to detail, and doesn't happen at all like they envisioned it. Most people are simply not focused enough - and that isn't an insult. I had an helper once who had some attention span issues. He could do some awesome things when you didn't drive him out of hisrange. I was happy to have him there.But he wasn't ever going to do coding or 3-D work.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  7. Get rid of him by koan · · Score: 2

    It's as simple as not using Facebook, I know, I know... you're "trapped" on it now because you were stupid enough to use it in the first place.

    Zuck: They "trust me"
    Zuck: Dumb fucks

    -Mark Zuckerberg

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  8. Re:H1-Bs rock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    You have no idea what you are talking about.

    Bay Area hiring manager. New average college grads are paid $100K+ - H1-B, F1, or US citizen.

    If ARE you in the Bay area getting paid 40K then look for another job, today. Those H1-Bs are **PORTABLE**. You can get another job as easily as anyone else, just gotta drop a FYI form into the mail moving the visa to the new employer. You can change employers immediately, you don't even need to wait for the change of employer form to be processed (just make *sure* it is filled out properly). The H1-B is not indentured servitude, you can compete for jobs with everyone else.

    The H1-B does affect supply and demand, but not in the way you people all think. The supply is global. If there is no local supply. The demand moves offshore.

    You know what happens when I try and try and try and fail to hire enough developers in the Bay area (for anywhere from $100K to $500K+ depending on experience)? The project gets done anyway, but the work gets moved to Canada or India or China where the visa issue doesn't restrict my ability to hire.

    I'd rather relocate those people to the Bay area - pay them competitive local wages, have them pay local taxes, spend money in the local economy etc. But becuase of visa caps I can't do that. Having a distributed team across timezones causes a *lot* more problems than simply paying a competitive local wage. If I apply for a H1-B for them they have about a 30% chance of being picked in the lottery each year. I can't run my business with that level of uncertainty, so the jobs go offshore!!! I fail to see how that is a good outcome for the US.

    Where the H1-Bs *ARE* badly badly abused is by Indian outsoucing companies, not by places like Microsoft. It gets abused in two ways:
    1) They will bring in one barely qualified person as a local contact on a H1-B visa. That person will interact with the client and send all the work to be done overnight in India.
    2) They will bring in barely qualified workers, train them (to replace expensive US workers), then send them back to India to continue for less money. The way the visa laws are written - the the visas are only for TEMPORARY workers - all but encourages this!!!

    Tightening up on the above two would seriously improve the H1-B situation for legitimate US companies. It's not the current requirements, but the job should be for an *ongoing* position, not just temporary. If you've got a history of using H1-Bs for short term contracts then no more visas for you Mr off-shoring company.

  9. Blame HR demands by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

    When they boss around IT managers with need +10 years experience in html5 Android development the only hits are Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience in Bangalore then what are you going to do?

    Then HR screams raise the caps!! No qualified workers exist and pass it off to the mbas

    --
    http://saveie6.com/
  10. Re:We just need more talent! by techno-vampire · · Score: 2

    Why would we go to that expensive effort if we didn't need too?

    Is it possible that you're setting the bar too high and expect too much, too soon from your new hires? Remember, if you want people to stay with you and not jump ship quickly, you need to expect them to grow into the job because if they can already do everything you need, they're not going to be interested in what you want, they'll be looking for new challenges and new things to learn and they'll leave as soon as they find it. I don't know if this applies in the slightest to your situation, but judging only from what you've written here, it looks like a possibility.

    --
    Good, inexpensive web hosting
  11. Re:H1-Bs rock by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

    Why do slashdot posters always quote salaries in the bay area?? Good on you if you are in the bay area or can move to the bay area, but most people are:
    1) not in the bay area, and
    2) cannot move to the bay area
    There is such a thing as family obligations and local ties to community. One hotspot in the US is not good enough.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.