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Gates, Zuckerberg Promising Same Jobs To US Kids and Foreign H-1B Workers?
theodp writes: Over at the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg-bankrolled Code.org, they're using the number of open computing jobs in each state to convince parents of the need to expand K-12 CS offerings so their kids can fill those jobs. Sounds good, right? But at the same time, the Gates and Zuckerberg-bankrolled FWD.org PAC has taken to Twitter, using the number of open "STEM" jobs in each state to convince politicians of the need to expand the number of H-1B visas so foreign workers can fill those jobs. While the goal of Microsoft's 'two-pronged' National Talent Strategy is to kill two birds [K-12 CS education and H-1B visas] with one crisis, is it fair for organizations backed by many of the same wealthy individuals to essentially promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers?
Yeah, more stem workers = lower pay (supply and demand) I am sure this is all completely legit
Its hard not to be cynical when this is how the wealthy use their influence in a society that actively caters to them. I'm glad Slashdot keeps reporting on these issues, and I hope we will support and punish as appropriate candidates who oppose H1B. I hope we will have our own movement and do our own work in as many different social avenues as we can to defeat attempts to make things harder for us for the sole reason of lining the pockets of the wealthy more than they already are.
or don't act surprised when we accommodate our needs from the foreign hordes.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
"Nobody's going to hold you up and carry you around...If you're not going to work hard enough to be qualified to get the job...well then, you don't deserve the job."
And part of WORKING HARD ENOUGH is WORKING CHEAP ENOUGH.
Remember kids -- you got give us MORE FOR LESS if you want to make it in today's Globalized Economy. Just being a US Citizen doesn't mean you deserve to work in the US. Why should we "Carry You Around" if we can import workers willing to work for the equivalent wage they'd get in Bangalore while working in San Jose and will even offer to CARRY US AROUND the corporate campus in Rickshaws and Litters in their off hours?
This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future
"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...
You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."
Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.
Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.
Comes to timing. The K-12 CS students are not going to fill the vacancies advertised today, but they might fill the ones advertised in 4-15 years time, reducing the need for H-1Bs at that time
Seems like getting more people trained in the art of making buggy whips and sealing wax.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.
Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.
You forgot the supply part. Coding training is the new English major, and any parent who doesn't want a 35 year old cellar dweller in their house should probably try to talk their chilren into som eother career choice.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
The issue is lack of skilled workers - either training workers in the same country or hiring workers having such education from another country will solve the issue. As an employer, I hire either and don't care which, and would suspect most businesses including MS and Facebook are happy to find skilled workers either way.
If you'd renounce your citizenship and move to one of those other countries you'd get cheap labor.
Please?
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
It's awesome for me, as a startup founder. The American workers typically want between 130k-160k but the foreigners (mostly here on student visas) are happy with 40k. So I can hire 3 or 4 foreign engineers for every 1 American engineer.
We need to greatly expand this program so employers can create more jobs.
Cheap labor is what we need!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's as simple as not using Facebook, I know, I know... you're "trapped" on it now because you were stupid enough to use it in the first place.
Zuck: They "trust me"
Zuck: Dumb fucks
-Mark Zuckerberg
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Huh? What ivory tower do you live in?
Production cost only affect one part of the decision process: Whether or not a product gets produced. If the production cost is higher than the possible sales revenue, it will not be produced.
The price of a product is entirely dependent on the spot where it's possible to maximize revenue. Price never has, and never will, be affected by production cost, unless cost pushes against the price to the point where profit becomes zero. Then, and only then, cost will push the price upwards or the product is discontinued due to being unprofitable (in its most literal sense, being unable to profit).
Dropping costs have never caused prices to drop. Never. All lower costs ever did was increasing the profit margin until someone came along and decided to make do with a lower profit margin. Then, and only then, prices dropped. Competition is what drives prices down. Lower costs only mean more profit.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
As long as the jobs actually go to the kids in the end, I see no issue with the companies covering their bases.
After all, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the training programs are actually going to entice a significant number of kids to enter STEM careers. There have always been science classes and science clubs, yet the percentage of people pursuing STEM careers has always been relatively low.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
As a CEO, you want cheaper labor and more labor choice. The "side" impact to society of getting that is of no concern to the CEO if it doesn't affect the bottom line. And there is almost no penalty in spinning the truth to get it.
Table-ized A.I.
Yes, and when did that start? Before or after Intel finally had a competitor for the CPU market (well, one where the CPUs weren't just kinda-sorta-pretty-much-but-not-quite compatible)?
Name ONE SINGLE instance where you can't immediately trace it to stiff competition. Ram and storage are both dirt cheap, due to a lot of suppliers. Even SSDs are rather cheap, despite being the latest and greatest development in the area. In the CPU market you only have two suppliers, and you will notice that the prices reflect that. GPUs you have nVidia as the leader with ATI doing its best to keep up, and the prices show it.
But maybe you could explain to me the price development of de-facto standard software in various areas. You might notice that these prices actually went up with time rather than down. And that there is more often than not no sensible competitor in sight. Or who'd you suggest is a viable competitor to Adobe (be it Acrobat, Flash or Photoshop)?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yes, they are playing a shell game, and you the routine, the house always wins.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
When they boss around IT managers with need +10 years experience in html5 Android development the only hits are Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience in Bangalore then what are you going to do?
Then HR screams raise the caps!! No qualified workers exist and pass it off to the mbas
http://saveie6.com/
Never?
The machine I'm typing this on cost less than the computer I was using twenty years ago. And has many times the memory, mass storage, and processor speed.
So MUCH better machine for rather less. Sounds like a price drop as a result of dropping costs to me. Or are you asserting that terabyte hard-drives are just as expensive as they were twenty years ago? Ditto 4gig of RAM, etc...
So, provide your interpretation as to the reasons for my current laptop to be cheaper than what it replaced, that doesn't include lowered costs....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
>>> "promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers" ??? I think people have this confusion that if somebody takes a Software Dev job on an H-1B, that that means they are taking a job an American would have otherwise. Maybe in some regions of the country? But in my experience there are WAY more openings for highly talented engineers than there are people qualified to fill them. I'm a Sr. Software Dev working for a $1bil company, growing 30%+/year, and I can say - one of our biggest velocity killers is our ability to bring on qualified people fast enough. Believe me - we would hire more Americans if there were more qualified ones applying! There are plenty of 'programmers' in the U.S., but the ones who actually know what they are doing are very difficult to find and keep! So it makes total sense to expand training in the U.S. while seeking talent elsewhere at the same time...
Coding training is the new English major,
That's not a bad analogy. Increasingly, the white collar job market is viewing basic training in programming to be an essential skill, and it's the responsibility of the applicant, not the employer.
I'm trying to imagine the people in Human Resources doing coding.......
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...
You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."
I'm not sure it's that simple. Sure, one business could pay double the market rate and steal employees from the shop down the street
but that only gets you so far and IT is already paid at about double the rate of most industries so the people who can do it already are
doing IT and it doesn't matter if every employer doubled the amount that they are willing to pay tomorrow if there are no more employees
left. I think that's the reason that facebook, etc... have all the other perks. They are trying as hard as they can to recruit people and
I don't know of anyone who has turned down a job with either google or facebook because the pay was too low or there wasn't enough
perks.
Sure, it's a little costlier than a full blown slave at a Chinese Apple phone factory, but be assured, it's only a temporary setback until we can get indentured servitude for student loan defaults back on the books.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
I trained to be a IT professional.
All ways good in my working career until I hit 40 after that it was much harder to get a job.
If your training is only good for 20 years of work, the pay has to go way up.
Employers want cheap slave labor, not workers with wisdom, families, and an outside life.
This is my opinion based on what little I know and understand of the rumors and lies Thanks, Randal
I have discouraged my children and most others that I know in IT / Software are discouraging their children from pursuing CS / IT degrees. While there are plenty of jobs, there are few careers.
I laugh at inappropriate times.
No need to renounce citizenship, we already use workers overseas - they are getting the jobs that could be in the U.S. We're paying $200K for workers in the U.S., have of which can't produce anything useful and we have to let them go within a year, compared to $20K in Romania with a higher success rate.
You can tell this is true, because he posts using his real world name, provided a link to his company site advertising the positions to be filled, complete with the locations, duties and salary offered as well as a detailed overview of the working environment and conditions. Oh wait, he didn't do any of that, guess he's lying.
That puts the lie to the skills argument.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
in business. I think that was the Grandparent's point. You can do anything to anyone when it's "Just Business"...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
The specific jobs that are listed today won't actually be there by the time the 10 and 12-year old American kids graduate from college. By that time, it could be that even the technical skill sets employers are hiring for will be different.
They were hoping you'd be bright enough to figure that out.
Maybe Gates and Zuck are saying, "Look, American companies have all these IT jobs they've been trying to fill, preferably on US soil. We need more talent! Homegrown talent would be great, otherwise, we'll need to bring them in from outside."
This!!! I work in a recruiting company for technical jobs, and more often than not, people with the required skillsets are not Americans, but more often than not Indians, and some Chinese and Russians thrown in. Client needs someone who knows SAP ABAP or Oracle Primavera or SalesForce.com or SharePoint... I do a search on the job boards, and find few Americans available for any salary. It's not the money: it's more that fewer Americans are into IT, maybe due to the perception - rightly or wrongly - about such jobs getting offshored.
Anyway, companies like Microsoft, FaceBook and even other companies in other market segments - Wells Fargo, Walmart, FedEx, et al - require these very skills. Not just a generic 'programmer' or 'software developer' or 'software engineer', but people who are SMEs in the tools or platforms they already have. Why? Because that's where they have sunk their cash, and if they have to get people with different skills, there's a good chance that they'd have to sink new cash into other tools that the new hires are familiar with. So they look all over the US for programmers who are either citizens or permanent residents, and when they don't find them here, they either try to get someone abroad here on an H1B (maybe due to the need to interface with clients here) or ask someone in Bangalore or Moscow or somewhere else in Eastern Europe to do it. Yeah, they want it done cheaper, since that cost ultimately gets transferred to the client, but more often than not, the issue is not getting it done cheaper, but getting it done in the first place.
The idea of getting US kids to develop such skills is a long sighted one - so that instead of having to bitch about how there are no jobs for them when they grow up, they are ready to take such jobs when they grow up. As others have pointed out here, there are skills that foreign programmers just don't have - a primary one being the ability to communicate seamlessly with Americans. So it's not that if they develop skills in things like SAP or Oracle, their jobs will suddenly be replaced by 10 people in Elbonia (and to this day, I have rarely seen any SAP consultant - American or H1B - come cheap). One thing is true though - unlike in the 90s when developers were very mobile between jobs due to the opportunity to rake in a windfall, that won't be happening anytime soon, if ever. But not due to a price disparity between American and foreign workers.
Given how specialized and difficult recruiting is these days, I wonder how long will recruiting be a low skill job? I have seen plenty of people from other disciplines get into recruiting. Far from being an HR drone job, it's now a very high stress job, given that recruiters have targets to fill, and they'd tend to lose their jobs if those ain't met. Also, given how specialized the searches are, recruitment is becoming as segmented an industry as engineering or other high skilled disciplines.
Sez one AC to another.....
We should be able to hire anyone we wish to fill jobs we have to offer from anywhere on earth they may currently live IFF they can fulfill the job requirements are are willing to abide by our laws. That is the only stance consistent with freedom and rationality. A potential hire is not better or more deserving of a job just by virtue of being an American. I have worked in software in Silicon Valley for 35 years and there are deep problem finding qualified software engineers. Companies I have been at have lost good talent due to visa snafus and quota and time limits.
So stop pretending that H1B visa holders are a threat to some supposed right you have to a job you do not otherwise qualify for. And don't bring out that they work a lot cheaper. In all cases I was involved in the visa holder was being paid the same as other workers in the position.
Enough with the economic nationalism already. Ask yourself this: Why do kids born in America deserve higher wages and better jobs than immigrants? Are the immigrants not human too? In response to all of this "progressive" weeping over the loss of american jobs to globalization, I would just respond that this same globalization has pulled far more humans out of poverty than any aid program ever has or will.
The problem is that the unemployed American is not even being considered for the job when they do apply. The job requirements are carefully set out so that only the Infosys-style company will have an employee that meets the criteria. There's all kinds of backroom shenanigans going on here, and as usual, the average citizen is the fool at the card table who is being taken.
We all know the situation is bullshit. So we bitch, and send each other links to articles. As if that will fix the problem.
Situation-1:
Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
IT Worker: guess I have no choice.
Situation-2:
Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
Entire IT staff: you try to pull that bullshit, and we all walk out right this minute!
Manager: okay, you win.
There is not much to understand they just want to create hordes of low-paid employees. The rest is just bullshit talk.
Why are they paying for their mortgage in the first place? If you cannot afford a home, rent one.
Economics does not work that way.
A decrease in the labor supply (a supply curve shift to the left) will cause a shortage, with an increase in required wages to meet equilibrium. If what you and the guest workers said was correct about shortages, then wages would go up - not down.
An increase in the labor supply (a supply curve shift to the right) will cause a surplus, with a decrease in required wages to meet equilibrium. This is what really is happening, since there is an increase in the labor supply beyond what the equilibrium will support.
Geopolitical interference with developed nations like the United States, such that citizens are purposefully and systematically excluded from selection, is a valid explanation.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
If you actually controlled for admissions criteria, which no current ranking system (especially PISA), the US would be much higher.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
A potential hire is not better or more deserving of a job just by virtue of being an American.
Given that the American has more freedom than the typical guest worker (or their home country), that alone is enough justification.
Companies I have been at have lost good talent due to visa snafus and quota and time limits.
There was even better talent that was right in the US. Unfortunately, you weren't willing enough to work with US citizens in good faith.
So stop pretending that H1B visa holders are a threat to some supposed right you have to a job you do not otherwise qualify for.
Then stop with the unrealistic requirements that are designed solely to disqualify US citizens. The citizens are qualified, especially those that are asked to train guest worker replacement, you just have an anti-citizen bias. Your best bet would be to prepare to accept the idea that US citizens are qualified.
The guest worker program has never been about freedom; it has been about making an end-run around the Constitution's provisions prohibiting slavery and indentured servitude.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Enough with the economic nationalism already.
Not going to happen as long as there's an effort to oppose US citizens. No sense in taking envious jabs out at the modern-day Roman Empire just because you live on the wrong side of it.
Why do kids born in America deserve higher wages and better jobs than immigrants?
The US has a higher degree of personal freedom not present in nearly all the offshoring destinations. In every sense of the word, businesses in this environment hate freedom.
Are the immigrants not human too?
Guest workers are not immigrants. Before you ask, mine came to live long, prosperous lives as citizens.
I would just respond that this same globalization has pulled far more humans out of poverty than any aid program ever has or will.
The vast body of evidence would point to a large wealth transfer that penalizes freedom.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Given that your over 30 and clearly want a living wage and a 40hour work week. We have decided to get an H1B visa worker in here to learn your job and move it to a communist country. There they work for rice and we only need to wrap nets around the building vs giving you a pay raise. Its what the stock holders want and of course I'll get a huge bonus for saving expenses for the company.
Hmm, Faced with this scenario, what smart American would want to be a Computer grad. Basically only the hardcore guys will want to suffer this, the rest will go on to a business degrees.
Yes, wages do go up when you restrict the supply of software developers, I never disputed that. What I'm pointing out is that it also means fewer software developers and fewer software companies.
What you have failed to explain is why that is good for anybody. Even if you buy into the protectionist b.s. that it is the job of the US government to cause prices on software to rise so that software developers can live in luxury, how does that benefit America as a whole? How is that any different from crooked Wall Street traders demanding special treatment and bailouts from the US government?
And those 20,000 employee Microsoft fired are doing what now? Fuck off you ignorant troll.
Unlike Capitalism, Globalization is Zero-sum WITHOUT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...
Casteism
How many companies make Ram, Storage? How much does Ram and Storage cost? Compared to earlier?
How many companies make CPUs and GPUs? How much do they cost? Compared to earlier?
How many companies make operating systems (suitable for average desktop work)? How much do they cost? Compared to earlier?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
And these billions are ill-gotten why, exactly? 'Cos Microsoft charged hundreds of $$$ for every copy of Windows, Office, et al instead of giving it away for free, like the Linux guys do? Well, even RMS is okay with people selling software - he just wants copyleft rights to be a part of the package.
With 92 million people out of work I can guarantee you they can easily find anybody they want to work for them relocate for them and work extra hours. But of course if you want to pay half or less than that you have to go outside the country and that is what they're doing. it is even worse than offshoring at least then you have to watch your actual job leave not simply be replaced by someone who just flies in and takes it.
Most of those 92 million are not qualified. If you know of a GOOD programmer out of work
and is willing to work for double or even triple minimum wage then please contact me as I
will hire him on the spot. Many programmers with a 4 year degree are paid on par with
doctors who spend 8+ years in school.
I'm not saying that h1b1s aren't being abused to save money but good employees in IT can
still find jobs that are paying considerably above what most other professionals make as
well as at least 4-5 times what you make on minimum wage. A good programmer can
easily make double what many non-IT people with masters degrees make.
yeah, that will not happen.
Likewise, I'm trying to imagine coders using the shoes people wear, the purses and Italian suits, and the font on their resume as job qualifications.
Really, IT anf HR are just about opposite ends of the spectrum of human interests.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Disney not two weeks ago fired their IT department and replaced them with H1B workers. They just didn't want to pay American salaries to American workers. The arguments is over.
RAM prices stayed high long after production costs dropped. It took government action - overseas, I recall- to punish the collusion and price-fixing and force the prices to drop. There ain't no such thing as a free market.
Disney not two weeks ago fired their IT department and replaced them with H1B workers. They just didn't want to pay American salaries to American workers. The arguments is over.
Disney has plenty of money but to give you a view from the other side:
We're a small business (less than 20 employees) and we've had this
discussion more than once. I have no desire to outsource but our IT
budget can barely afford to hire American programmers. Sure, we would
love to pay everyone six figures but the money just isn't there. To make
matters worse, our competitors have already outsourced their IT. We pay
our office staff above market wages at 30-40k per year but we just can't
afford to pay our IT the 80k plus required when everyone else is at 40k.
It's got to the point where it's hurting our growth as we just can't find
programmers willing to work for what we're able to pay (60k) and we are
considering what it would take to outsource our IT.