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British Politicians Delete Negative Wikipedia Descriptions Before Election

EwanPalmer writes: The Wikipedia pages of dozens of UK politicians had references to sex scandals, fraud and opposition to same sex marriage removed in the run up to the UK general election. Dozens of MPs had negative aspects of their online biographies removed or altered prior to the election in a bid to make them more electable. The changes include several instances of MPs' expense claim scandals being removed, as well as details of arrests and the use of 'chauffeur-driven cars.' The edits were made using computers with IP addresses registered from inside Parliament.

73 of 121 comments (clear)

  1. Re:bunch of naggers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    You assholes re-elected the torie menace David Cameron, and he is going to COMPLETELY destroy your country.

  2. Surprised those edits weren't reverted by rockout · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've noticed in the past that most of those white-washing edits, especially when they're done by anonymous IPs, tend to get reverted by registered editors, so that the white-washing isn't that much of an issue.

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    1. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      So you took the same thing away as I did, that there are no pimply, greasy, reversion hounds with axes to grind that have bots looking for changes? That's pretty odd for Wikipedia.

    2. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even if they were immediately reverted, that the edits were done is a cause for concern on its own basis.

      Me, if I were a politician, I'd tell my staff to have NOTHING to do with any Wikipedia pages on me EXCEPT post comments to the talk page clearly established as being from them, and requesting any errors or clarifications be made. Well, I suppose commenting to BLP or other places would be ok too.

      But that's why I'd never be a politician, I'm too honest and earnest.

    3. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Politicians are in such a bubble these days and are so self-righteous and self-involved I wonder if the actual office holder even has Wikipedia on their map. Here in the US we have politicians that proudly say they don't use email or have never used the web. It wouldn't surprise me if many staffers receive no guidelines at all about their online usage, and if they do it might come ignorance of how the Internet works.

    4. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by squiggleslash · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think there's a sense of defeat amongst most Wikipedia editors right now, that if they revert the removal of sourced, no-BLP-problems, negative information from Wikipedia, they're going to end up in a fight that leaves them banned for "edit warring" or "incivility" by admins and arbs more keen on the appearance of dealing with conflict than on resolving real issues with off-site organizing of vandalism and harassment.

      I wouldn't recommend anyone get involved in that hole for a while, and as such I reluctantly discourage anyone from reading Wikipedia for anything but the least controversial articles - unless they're also willing to put the work in and examine page histories, checking references, etc.

      --
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    5. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by mwvdlee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's an issue in that these politicians are wasting the precious time of honest, taxpaying volunteers.

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    6. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by RDW · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Me, if I were a politician, I'd tell my staff to have NOTHING to do with any Wikipedia pages

      Personally, I'd have my staff whitewash my opponent's page, then leak that somebody had done this...

    7. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by rockout · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, that may be true if an editor gets involved in a protracted edit war with another editor. For anon IPs, such as the ones doing the edits described in the summary, it's trivial to revert the edit, and if anon IPs continue to remove sourced material, the IP addresses tend to get blocked for a few days, or a week, or a month, depending on the individual circumstances surrounding the edit war. An administrator is going to back a registered editor over an anon IP pretty much every time, so there's no danger of getting banned.

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    8. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Add to it that there's a history of edits, and it may be valuable to actually analyze the history on the pages that can contain controversial information.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    9. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by umafuckit · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's what happened...

    10. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Nah, you pay someone to deface his page with slander and lies, and have your staffer fix it immediately and release that you have no connection to such underhanded tactics as to spread ....insert reference to slander and lies.

      That way, you have a legitimate reason to speak your slander and lies, while making it someone else's fault; and take credit for being fair.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    11. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      "If you can think of a simpler way, I'd like to hear it."

    12. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by AntiAntagonist · · Score: 2

      There have been some Congress critters caught having their aides edit their wiki pages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...

    13. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Well, that may be true if an editor gets involved in a protracted edit war with another editor. For anon IPs, such as the ones doing the edits described in the summary, it's trivial to revert the edit, and if anon IPs continue to remove sourced material, the IP addresses tend to get blocked for a few days, or a week, or a month, depending on the individual circumstances surrounding the edit war. An administrator is going to back a registered editor over an anon IP pretty much every time, so there's no danger of getting banned.

      Wouldn't it just be easier to build in a delay of all edits from anonymous IPs?

      --
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    14. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      I've noticed in the past that most of those white-washing edits, especially when they're done by anonymous IPs, tend to get reverted by registered editors, so that the white-washing isn't that much of an issue.

      Unless the reversion takes place after the elections in which case the scumbags have accomplished what they set out to.

      Any politically sensitive pages should have editing delays and open review for some time (two weeks?).

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    15. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by earthminion · · Score: 1

      These days it won't even be staffers who will fix it, it'll be PR companies and they most definately do know a lot about Wikipedia pages etc... They'll know for example that if you change it before an election, it'll most likely take time to be fixed, so it'll only show back up again after an election. So gives them the effect they want. Whitewash before the election, then next election, play the same game again.

      It is a problem because a lot of people won't see the truth in time, then will forget it by the next election.

    16. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by rockout · · Score: 2
      Maybe. It would be even easier to just ban IP edits entirely. Of course, that's not the idea that drives Wikipedia -

      Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

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    17. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by ckatko · · Score: 1

      Wikipedia has had lots of high profile problems lately, like when they refused to let the author of a book, correct the Wikipedia entry about his own book. BUT, he could write a blog post, and then LINK to that post, and it'd be okay because it's somehow more verifiable.

      It also has lots of problems with hardcore progressives / gender warriors (::cough::slashdot owners::cough::) going ape-shit on all of the gender-related articles and reverting, censoring, and forcing out anyone who disagrees with the people who squat on those pages. So the highest user council on Wikipedia eventually had to ban them from editing those articles. At which point, the progressives cried censorship!

      Wikipedia has passed its high point of reliability, now that people realize they can control it for their political agendas.

    18. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2

      Even if they were immediately reverted, that the edits were done is a cause for concern on its own basis.

      I'm more concerned with voters who decide based on info on wiki pages. A sad state of affairs if it really makes a difference.

    19. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by tsotha · · Score: 1

      It's a question of timing, though. Most voters don't think about politics much, so even just a few hours at the right time could be critical.

    20. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Yes and...that's why I suggested a delay.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    21. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      It is a problem because a lot of people won't see the truth in time, then will forget it by the next election.

      This is only a problem for the three people who vote based purely on what they read on the candidate's Wikipedia page.

    22. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Maybe. It would be even easier to just ban IP edits entirely. Of course, that's not the idea that drives Wikipedia -

      Surely different types of information can have different levels of protection. eg a page on Pythagoras Theorem should pretty much be lock in now, I can't imagine much changing there, whereas the latest football season scores will expect to be updated in an ongoing basis.
      We have media blackout laws 4 days prior to an election, I can't see why relevant political pages can't be locked during this time.

    23. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Those voters are at least making an attempt to research their choices in some objective manner, rather than listening to both (or all of) the sides flinging attacks, promises, and lies. On many political issues, I wind up not knowing what's correct and what's not until I do my own research or find somebody else I trust who's done the research.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    24. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by rockout · · Score: 1

      This is obviously the wrong place for that suggestion, mainly because Wikipedia has an excellent system in place for any user to submit a suggestion of that nature. If you cared enough to take the time to do it, you could end up starting a discussion there and if enough editors agreed with you, that type of major change might actually happen. I encourage you to take part and start the process.

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    25. Re:Surprised those edits weren't reverted by rockout · · Score: 1

      They do, in fact, have different levels of protection for different types of pages. For examples, biographies of living people are afforded far more protection than an article, on, say, the World Trade Center. However, when it comes to topics like the Pythagorean Theorem, the encyclopedia tends to err more to the side of openness, rather than lockdown, and trust that the community will revert any vandalism-type edits, thus also allowing easy access to anyone that has anything of substance to add. The whole idea is to make it simple for anyone to edit.

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  3. Last minute voting researchers? by rmdingler · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Sure it's scandalous, but mostly because candidates with this many flaws are still running at all.

    Access to information is the greatest threat to rule of crooks and despots, which is why it is frowned upon in so many closed counties.

    In the West? Chances are very few people will be reseacrhing online inside the voting booth. Do your homework before election day.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

    1. Re:Last minute voting researchers? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 1

      In the West? Chances are very few people will be reseacrhing online inside the voting booth. Do your homework before election day.

      You'd be surprised at how many people bring their smartphone into the voting booth with them for some quick wikipedia lookups.

    2. Re:Last minute voting researchers? by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      Sure, but the celebrity of politics would be an advantageous pulpit from which to defend the slander.

      Of course, if someone with enough wealth and will decided to deface my reputation through search engine modifications, it would be difficult for me to defend myself.

      It would also effect my livelihood only negligibly. There is some middle-of-the-herd shelter in anonymity.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    3. Re:Last minute voting researchers? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      People without serious flaws are likely to lack serious virtues as well. We want to select people who will be good in their office, not the ones with the most innocuous youths.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  4. Obilg Orwell by seven+of+five · · Score: 5, Informative

    'There is a Party slogan dealing with the control of the past,' he said. 'Repeat it, if you please.'
    '"Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past,"' repeated Winston obediently.

    1. Re:Obilg Orwell by LeadSongDog · · Score: 1

      The response to this is simple. LOCKSS. Many archives (not all online) in many jurisdictions limits censorship to countries running Great Firewalls, which have their own problems.

      --
      Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
    2. Re:Obilg Orwell by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      So you point us to a book of propaganda?

      It is a good example of someone trying just what you describe.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  5. Re:bunch of naggers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Note: The general people in the UK don't vote for the Prime Minister - they vote for their local Member of Parliament (MP).
    The MPs collectively vote for the Prime Minister.
    So 'You assholes' is presumably only referring to the 650 (minus the Sinn Fein folk) MPs?

  6. British? by aglider · · Score: 1

    And you think politicians from other countries will keep their "negative" details? Ah!

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    1. Re:British? by rockout · · Score: 1

      You're right, of course. This article only deals with British politicians, though. I've reverted anon IP edits to American politicians' pages myself; mostly it's just simple white-washing stuff that, once you add it to your watchlist, becomes really easy to spot and maintain.

      --
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  7. That's not very British, is it? by cloud.pt · · Score: 1

    With all the talk going on around UK's adult content policies, it was only natural to remove some social-centric articles which directly impact on public opinion. It just doesn't seem like the British thing to do, does it?

    Well, I guess the way they are heading, any censorship is good censorship. Might as well make it a totalitarian state sooner better than later. How anyone in there is outraged that the EU is eye-browing such policies, that is the actual surprise... But then again, who would want freedom of speech, when freedom of speech can have such influence on these fascists jobs? It's understandable that state entities such as the parliament are editing wikipedia. Wouldn't you do anything it takes to keep your salary? Especially if such censorship action happens to coincide with your political view? Man I know I would. If my first name was Adolf and my last name rimmed with shittler I definitely would.

    1. Re:That's not very British, is it? by Richard+Kirk · · Score: 1

      Aah, but the British thing is also to make a cock of it. The British had their own eugenics movement back in the thirties. It had people Marie Stopes disowning her daughter because she wanted to marry someone who wore glasses, because that would 'pollute the race'. It was a bunch of very ordinary looking people pretending to be the master race, while falling over their own furniture. A properly organized nation would be a lot worse. Makes one proud, it does...

  8. Re:bunch of naggers by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The alternative being a weak Labour government with its balls firmly in the Nats hands.

    If there was ever an election that was a choice of the lesser evil, the 2015 UK general election was it.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  9. The edits aren't the problem by Iamthecheese · · Score: 2

    The root of the problem is people using Wikipedia as a research resource in its own right. It's very helpful for uncontroversial facts but horrible for anything even slightly politically charged. Wikipedia is filled with power hungry POV pushing scum in denial. The solution isn't to fix Wikipedia, it's far beyond fixing. The solution is to take anything you read on Wikipedia with a whole shaker of salt. Do real research.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:The edits aren't the problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And what source do you suggest that isn't politically charged? Wikipedia is of course far from perfect but with the audit logs it is the one source that completely details the evolution of the article on a particular subject. If you think an article has been tweaked to show a certain viewpoint you can always look at past versions to see how it has been changed and by who.

    2. Re:The edits aren't the problem by jodido · · Score: 1

      a. 99 percent of wikipedia users don't know there are audit logs let alone are willing or interested in wading through them. And audit logs don't tell you anything about prejudices or points of view. b. Wikipedia is pretty good for science stuff. The further you get away from science the worse it gets in terms of reliability.

  10. Re: bunch of naggers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The US voters have had the dilemma of having to pick the lesser of two evils for awhile now. It's all downhill from here. May God have mercy on you.

  11. Re:Well... by fremsley471 · · Score: 1

    Sorry for feeding the troll, but this site:
    http://www.transparency.org/cp...

    says 14th lowest out of 175 countries.

    Not the very best, but certainly the odds are that you are in a country that is more corrupt.

  12. Re:bunch of naggers by jeremyp · · Score: 2

    I'm not convinced we got the lesser evil though.

    --
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  13. Re:bunch of naggers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That should read "37% of you assholes re-elected the torie menace"

    Hurrah for first past the post, truly the most democratic of systems.

  14. So they're campaigning on the Streisand platform by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    that usally goes well for anyone using it.

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  15. Re:bunch of naggers by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

    First of all, I'm not British, so I only meant this as an outside observation. I'm Canadian, so certainly well versed in the realities of Westminster politics.

    Second of all, as much as Cameron may be far from ideal, I don't think he's any kind of Palpatine. As much as anything, he's been delivered the fruits of the Labour meltdown in Scotland which began in 2010 and now appears to be permanent.

    I do think that the specter of a Labour government reliant on the SNP disturbed a good many English, and I think there are reasonable grounds to argue that, for England, the idea of a Devo-maxed Scotland still able to push English MPs around on matters of largely English concern demonstrates fundamental inequities. And before we all forget, it is Labour, as much as anyone, who created this dilemma by dealing with the Scottish question, and going out of its way not to deal with English question.

    At any rate, British voters had their chance to pick a new electoral system that would have made the ability of any party to form government with less than even a 40% share of the popular vote far less likely. They rejected that. Coupled with what looks to be a permanent break with Labour in Scotland, and the phenomena of UKIP actually stealing more Labour votes than Conservative votes in the North, the Tories probably have a good chance of repeating the 2015 election again, providing they don't go completely off the rails. And that will moderate them as much as anything. Their first majority in 23 years is not something they're going to be keen to throw away on a pack of Thatcheresque exploits.

    --
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  16. Deal With it. by sycodon · · Score: 1

    If anyone can put anything in, then anyone can take anything out.

    Deal With It.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re:Deal With it. by rockout · · Score: 1

      The article IS dealing with it. It's exposing the fact that staffers for these candidates are white-washing pages. Not sure what you're so angry about.

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    2. Re:Deal With it. by sycodon · · Score: 1

      "Exposing".

      What's to expose? People did what people do in Wikipedia all day long.

      People are acting as if this is a big deal and somehow improper. It's just as proper as people putting information in that may be inaccurate or biased.

      Wikipedia is a poorly controlled free for all and no one should be surprised or upset when stuff like this happens.

      It's a great big So What?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    3. Re:Deal With it. by rockout · · Score: 1

      Probably because even though it's rarely practiced in reality, we'd like to think our elected leaders are held to a higher standard of honesty than the random population typing away edits at home. This article at least sheds SOME light on that behavior when it's coming from a place we'd rather see it not come from.

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      I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
  17. Question... by sycodon · · Score: 1

    Is anyone ever held accountable for libelous information in Wikipedia? Has there ever been any lawsuits over false information?

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  18. Re:Amazon e-book rewrites and pulls by Gramie2 · · Score: 1

    Using Calibre and certain plug-ins, it's not hard to covert e-books to DRM-free ePub format. Of course, if you live in the Land of the Free that runs afoul of the DMCA, but that's your own problem.

  19. Re:bunch of naggers by samjam · · Score: 2

    No, in the UK you vote for a candidate, not a party, and the candidate may be independent of parties.

    A party candidate may choose to leave his party after the election and this does not trigger a by-election, he retains his seat.

  20. List the pages, please... by dpbsmith · · Score: 1

    ...you don't get blocked for edit-warring until there have been three successive reverts. If there's a handy list of the affected pages I'd be glad to hop in and revert a few of them, and then bow out and let someone else hop in if needed.

  21. Re: bunch of naggers by St.Creed · · Score: 1

    So... fascism was caused by choice anxiety then? I'd never have guessed!

    --
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  22. Re:Well... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

    First of all, that's the "Corruption Perception Index"; that is, it is an index of how corrupt people believe their country to be, not how corrupt it actually is.

    Second, "corruption" means different things, from illegal bribing of low-level bureaucrats, to legal lobbying, rent-seeking, and even academic-honors-in-return-for-favors for high-level politicians.

    Nobody has any good objective data on how "corrupt" different countries are objectively by different measures. I suspect, there is little bribery, but a great deal of rent seeking in the UK.

  23. Re:bunch of naggers by ckatko · · Score: 1

    The AC brings up a good point. You bastards never give us a break when we have to decide between a giant douche and a turd sandwich, so why should we give you one?

  24. Re:bunch of naggers by Pax681 · · Score: 1

    You assholes re-elected the torie menace David Cameron, and he is going to COMPLETELY destroy your country.

    Scotland didn't vote for them...yet we have to suffer them.. in fact we firmly rejected the westminster parties... 56 seats to the Scottish National Party.. 1 seat labour, liberal and tory.....

  25. Re:Well... by fremsley471 · · Score: 1

    Apologies for the ignorance, what is 'rent seeking'?

    Understand it's a perception index. Anything better out there?

  26. Re:bunch of naggers by Pax681 · · Score: 1

    The alternative being a weak Labour government with its balls firmly in the Nats hands.

    If there was ever an election that was a choice of the lesser evil, the 2015 UK general election was it.

    LOL.. said like a true daily fail reader!!!

  27. No guarantee on the Leader by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    That's moot. They vote for the party, which is a vote for the leader of the party.

    There is no guarantee that the leader of the party will remain the same. In the past the prime minister has changed between elections e.g. Thatcher, Blair etc. In fact even during the election there is no guarantee that the party leader will actually be elected: it is theoretically possible for a party to win the election and then have to find a new leader because the one they had lost their local seat. This certainly happens with the smaller parties: UKIP's leader did not get elected in the recent election even though others of his party did.

  28. Re:bunch of naggers by Zumbs · · Score: 1

    According to bbc, only 37% of the votes cast were for the tories. Blame the British first-past-the-post system for giving absolute majority to a party supported by only 37% of the voters.

    --
    The truth may be out there, but lies are inside your head
  29. It's not Wikipedia which sucks... by Anonanonaon · · Score: 1

    Humans are the problem.

    Knowledge sources can only be built through networking efforts which actively strive for truth at all cost, self-police of its membership, values multiple viewpoints in the understanding that one person is powerless to perceive reality in its totality, and is prepared to take ego hits as members put truth and knowledge ahead of personal whimsy.

    The human world at large is a cauldron, or more accurately, a crucible evidently designed to purify human psyche and spirit. The action of heating and cooling through explosive action and reaction, serves to burn away the impurities over time and allow the desired qualities to slowly crystalize.

    The world is a machine. A system. A soul mill.

    As it happens, there is a regular and huge amount of low grade human "material" being poured in. Low grade human materials have yet to figure out the core challenge of apprehending and accepting objective reality as it stands, that there is a universe outside of and independent of the self, and that lying at the top of one's lungs, (and keyboards), is ultimately an act of nihilism.

    Those that don't learn this, vanish, and those that do, eventually have it burned away.

    Wikipedia is open to the whole of the the grist, so it cannot help but be a useless source of noise on any sensitive subject. Essentially, it allows the spiritual equivalent of tantrum-throwing children the same editorial power as wizened elders. How can that possibly become a reliable reservoir of pure knowledge?

    This is self-evident and it is surprising that the project for an open encyclopedia was even attempted. It was doomed from the start to be exactly as we see it today.

    Yet it serves an object purpose. It was and continues to be an amazing experiment which teaches people the necessity of being vigilant and focused and humble in their search for truth -if they at all want it.

    Conversely, it also demonstrates the ultimate futility of trying to control the universe by lying; though this is a more selective lesson which is lost on the liars.

  30. Re: bunch of naggers by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

    Except that by the time I get to vote in primaries, the nominees are often already chosen. The real way to have lots of choices is to live in New Hampshire and Iowa.

    It is indeed like a runoff election that is executed very very poorly.

    The winner take all system for awarding electoral votes has caused us to only have a few "swing states" that actually matter.

    Not to mention the fact that the parties now control the debates (rather than a nonpartisan organization like the league of women voters). They get to decide who is allowed to participate in the debates. They often change the criteria in order to specifically exclude/include particular candidates.

    If you are a 3rd party or an independent candidate, good luck getting anywhere near a debate run by democrats and republicans.

  31. Re:bunch of naggers by magpie · · Score: 1

    I still don't get the problem with the SNP, they are a leftwing progressive party and would be a good fit with labour (might even remind them that they are suposed to care about people who are worse off). They might also have made the UK less so utterly london centric.

  32. Re: bunch of naggers by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you think that a choice between Dems, who have shown themselves to be centrist, fiscally responsible and more likely to support the working class than not, and the gop, which has become a raft of radical nutjobs who want to waste the country's money on foreign wars while reducing taxes on the wealthy effectively bleeding the middle class to death... is the lesser of two evils, then you are just plain silly

    Keep in mind, who put the right wingers on the Supreme Court which upheld corporate money as 'free speech' - The GOP
    Who put us into two foreign wars with no long range plan resulting in trillions in debt and thousands of dead Americans - The GOP
    Who left our guard down while ignoring repeated warnings and allowing the 9/11 attacks on their watch - The GOP
    Who deregulated markets and created a boom/bust scenario resulting in the largest recession in 80 years - the GOP
    Who reduced taxes on the wealthy resulting in deficits and long term problems like a rotting infrastructure - the GOP

    And just to balance the scale, who recovered from the last two Bush-driven recessions - The Dems

    If you think that is the choice between two evils, then you are drinking the gop cool-aid and need to wake the fuck up

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    Wherever You Go, There You Are
  33. Expected, not a shocker! by Contract+Gypsy · · Score: 1

    Coming to a Clinton near you!

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    Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
  34. Re: bunch of naggers by tsotha · · Score: 1

    I feel sorry for you if you actually believe this.

  35. Re: bunch of naggers by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

    Don't just put me down, provide a logical counter argument

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    Wherever You Go, There You Are
  36. Re: bunch of naggers by Tyrannicsupremacy · · Score: 1

    And all of them are selected based on their fealty to jews. Just search any recent american potential presidential candidate's name plus "wailing wall" and you'll see most of them kissing the "ring" so to speak.

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    http://i.cubeupload.com/T6cyLu.png