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Windows 10 RTM In 6 Weeks

Billly Gates writes: Ars Technica has the scoop on a new build with less flat icons and a confirmation of a mid July release date. While Microsoft is in a hurry to fix the damage done by the Windows 8 versions of its operating system, the next question is, is ready for prime time? On Neowin there's a list of problems already mentioned by MS and its users with this latest release, including Wi-Fi and sound not working without a reboot, and users complaining about tiles and apps not working in the new start menu.

290 comments

  1. Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The beta should go on for at least another year.

    1. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's why it'll be free to upgrade to for a year.

    2. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of marketing, what's with this "RTM" term? Why not just use "FS", as in For Sale. It's like when standard end users use the term SKU. It's so fucking stupid.

    3. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTM is not used in marketing and is an internal term signifying the final release after testing.

    4. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because RTM means "release to manufacturing", not "for sale". They are not the same thing.

    5. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by v1 · · Score: 1

      what's with this "RTM" term?

      I'm going to have sooo much difficulty not auto-translating that to "RTFM" when I hear or read it...

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    6. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by exomondo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Speaking of marketing, what's with this "RTM" term?

      RTM is Release To Manufacturing.

      Why not just use "FS", as in For Sale.

      Because it's Release To Manufacturing, not For Sale.

    7. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Rob+Y. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's free to upgrade for a year, because they need it to become the new 'standard' - fast. They need people writing apps that'll run nicely on the mobile version. And, if the rumors are true, they're planning to make up for all those free upgrades with a hefty OEM price for new computers (isn't it nice to be able to extract Monopoly rates when you need it). $109 OEM for the home version, $149 for Pro. Makes Chromebooks look better and better - not to mention Linux loaded on your old PC.

      Not to say that'll keep people from buying laptops with Win10. Unless somebody sells the same hardware with Ubuntu for $100 less...

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    8. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      It's not free if you only have XP or want to build/buy a new computer.

      And at 109$USD for an OS alone, it's really expensive.

    9. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by unixisc · · Score: 1

      The beta should go on for at least another year.

      I don't know about another year, but I do think that as of now, it's still not ready. Some apps crash a lot in my tablet, and some refuse to even start - notably Skype. Steam also crashes quite a bit. Also, in improving the desktop experience, the tablet experience has gone bad - sometimes, apps just disappear and one has to do a swipe to get the task screens. They do need to debug some of their back-ends.

    10. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by unixisc · · Score: 1

      SKU - Stock Keeping Units - is actually a useful concept during inventory management. You have parts that are slightly different in build that you want to be able to segregate in case of custom purchases or returns, but you don't want to segregate it at the front end w/ general customers, since they are interchangeable w/ other units of a slightly different build (may have been built in a different location or factory, or in case of semiconductors, a different lot, et al). SKU numbers are numbers that you then use internally for your own purposes, but you don't let that percolate outside to where it gets known by customers, potentially making them more fussy about replacements.

    11. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by damnbunni · · Score: 2

      Pricing OSes is hard to do. There simply aren't very many commercial OSes out there to get a price on.

      AmigaOS 4 had a price drop from 125 euro to 30 euro not long ago. Solaris is about $1000. I can't easily find the price for AIX, but several years ago it was up in Solaris territory. Apple doesn't sell OSX on its own (the price is baked into the hardware.) eComStation is $290.

      Operating system prices seem to be either 'free' or 'who the hell knows'.

    12. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Teckla · · Score: 1

      $109 OEM for the home version, $149 for Pro. Makes Chromebooks look better and better - not to mention Linux loaded on your old PC.

      Yikes, that's expensive. If all the Pro features were available in the base version, then maybe... but, sheesh.

    13. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, my bet is that RTM in this case means "Rush to Market".

    14. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Whiteox · · Score: 2

      I got my Windows 10 offer this morning on one of my Win 7 machines. I am a bit reluctant as there is nothing wrong with the current install and it runs a small server as well. I can always reinstall 7 I suppose.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    15. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      The beta should go on for at least another year.

      That's why it'll be free to upgrade to for a year.

      That's what other partitions are for.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    16. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be poor. I live in China earning RMB and even with the weaker currency I wouldn't call it expensive given the nature of the product and how long it can be used for. Again, I say, you must be poor.

    17. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obvious lie is obvious, everyone knows they only have pirated copies of Windows in China!

    18. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by GoddersUK · · Score: 1

      I've always assumed it dates from the days when they actually had to send it off to the factory to be turned into CDs? (Also the origin of the term "gold copy"?)

    19. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by mwvdlee · · Score: 2

      I understand MS wants to make Windows 10 a subscription model.
      I wonder if that means this free upgrade will be suddenly start asking for subscription money (i.e. turn ransomware) in a year.

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    20. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      $109 OEM for the home version, $149 for Pro

      Those have been the standard prices for years. Larger OEMs get big discounts, and I doubt that will change.

      What will be interesting to see is if they keep the free version for small devices. Currently Windows 8 is free for most devices with a screen less than 13". There are a lot of cheap but fairly reasonable spec tablets making use of that now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In this case RTM may be the unofficial launch date as well, as in people on the preview programme will get it immediately and others may be able to get their upgrade versions at the same time. It could be a few months more until a full public launch, to allow time for physical copies to be made and OEMs to prepare their products.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    22. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of marketing, what's with this "RTM" term?

      RTM is Release To Manufacturing.

      True. Typical Microsoft affectation though. It's not manufacturing if all you're doing is copying DVD's and marketing.

    23. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um...no it's not. If you are living with your mom, and need to borrow some money from her, let me know.

      If you do not value your time (as apparently you do not), then sure, go with a chromebook or Linux on desktop. You must be another broke millennial.

    24. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody wants Linux, give it up.

    25. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OMG a whole $150 for software you use every day, all the time. That's like two months of cellphone service or three tanks of gas or half a day of work.

      How can people spend soooo much money on their operating system??!!!

    26. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I can always reinstall 7 I suppose."

      Not too sure about that: When I upgraded my XP (for free) to Windows 7, I couldn't install the XP-version anymore.

    27. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      If I purchase Windows 10 Pro for the system I have now, and then I decide to upgrade the system in a year can I use the same version of Windows 10 Pro on the new system?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    28. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      Pricing OSes isn't hard to do - Microsoft's been doing it for decades. And the price has been largely coming down - just like the price of everything else in computing. For a while there, Windows prices went up - but that was when the monopoly was riding high. And back then, they were providing a lot of new functionality. But the functionality plateaued with XP. How else can you explain how many systems are still running it - even now that it's unsupported. The new bells and whistles in Windows 8 (and 10?) are tied to the new Metro API's that don't have enough apps to make a difference. So desktop OS's have become a commodity - and are priced accordingly.

      And ever since Linux provided a viable alternative, the prices have been falling. For netbooks - and now any small-screen Windows device, the going OS price is $0 - the same price as Android, OS/X and Linux. So it's not a question of $109 being too expensive - it's just that a desktop computer OS is now a commodity that doesn't need to cost half as much again as the hardware it runs on. Same should be true of word processing software (face it, the only component of MS Office that gets used by the majority of people that buy it) - but lingering (overblown) fears of incompatibility have held the line there.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    29. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Rob+Y. · · Score: 1

      That may be true. Few enough people even know about Linux to qualify as wanting it. And yet... millions of people are buying Linux desktop devices in the form of Chromebooks. You may not think those are viable - and for your purposes, they may not be. But the definition of what a personal computer does is changing pretty quickly, and for a sizeable (and growing) part of the market, an Internet terminal is basically what their PC's are being used for. So, yeah, that portion will probably buy Chromebooks - or a Windows equivalent (Microsoft's not dumb). And Linux loaded on a cheap desktop (or an old XP machine) provides much the same functionality. No, not for those of you who need Windows and all the apps written for it, but yes for all those who just need something to get them access to the internet.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    30. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by __aanbvm4272 · · Score: 1

      Everyone does not have a few hundred dollars in their wallet Mr Starbucks. I'll wait for a used or damaged unit that I can fix to get the OS for free. That is unless MS starts charging a yearly license. Then its linux for the masses. My POS winXP uodate should last until 2019 and there will be plenty of Win10 machines being thrown out by then! I paid $20 for a dealer to instal Win98SE and that's the LAST time I bought windows other than a reinstall copy for $10.

    31. Re: Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck are you talking about? You couldn't reimage the drive backup you made (you did make one, right?) before you upgraded? You couldn't format the drive and start fresh?

      Sorry, but your attempt at FUD isn't going to fly here.

    32. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly right. RTM == gold. They still have to have some discs pressed for retail box sales and also need to allow OEMs time to preinstall it on their systems. With the latest news of general availability being July 29th, that gives them a couple of weeks from the rumoured RTM date to public release.

    33. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The discs need to be manufactured.

    34. Re:Marketing-driven deadlines by exomondo · · Score: 1

      It also gets released to the manufacturers of new PCs before release.

  2. Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Windows might have a couple of years left but unless they release source code under an open/free license there's no way it will continue to be an option.

    1. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For all non-IT people and most IT people, the only value of open source is in reducing costs. It's basically a race to $0 income where open source software is augmented with closed-source management tools or extra paid services to build other revenue streams.

      I'm personally into OSS since almost the start, but from a business perspective Microsoft will continue to do just fine unless they screw up big time in some other way.

    2. Re:Open Source Windows by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Windows might have a couple of years left but unless they release source code under an open/free license there's no way it will continue to be an option.

      So wait, what percentage of the desktop market does Windows have? And what percentage of the source code does its closest competitor provide? You're off your anonymous, cowardly nut.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Open Source Windows by westlake · · Score: 1

      Windows might have a couple of years left but unless they release source code under an open/free license there's no way it will continue to be an option.

      The Anonymous Coward also said there was no future for MS Office 365.
      LibreOffice for the win.

      Linux holds a 1.5% share of the desktop in the Net Applications stats, little changed since the dawn of time.
      Win 8/Win 8.1,14%
      Desktop Operating System Market Share

    4. Re:Open Source Windows by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Oh please coming from a long time linux and freebsd user.

      The costs to fly consultants to fix broken IE specific sites like SAP, java applets that look for XP and crap out on other platforms, wine bugs, lack of AD support for lockdowns, and help desk Temps to sort through the angry users, documents created with Libre office looking funny to potential clients with Office, are pure madness to consider! Don't give me the garbage about how users were supposed to save as .docx with no macros. Many are drooling idiots who will want to reprimand your ass for ca using this etc. Wine config? Yeah good luck with a 1,000 users including HR who have a weird java applet where people don't get paid if an error arises ;-)

      I am not saying this as a troll. Linux has it's uses for specialized servers.

      But if people wanted to be freed they would have last decade. Windows is reliable now since NT came and gets shit done

    5. Re:Open Source Windows by trparky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Windows is reliable now since NT came and gets shit done

      Other than the fact that the system contains legacy code that's chock full of security bugs dating back to the early 1990s. Supporting legacy software is why Microsoft can't change and in the end, it's going to kill them. Other companies that are smaller and more agile will kill Microsoft.

      Microsoft sees the writing on the wall, they know that the end is near. You can see that in how they are making apps for the iPhone and Android devices. Things like Office, OneNote, Skype, Outlook, OneDrive, etc. They aren’t making these apps for other platforms just for the sake of making them available, they are making them available because they need to or they’re dead.

      The computing industry that we have today is not a Microsoft dominated industry anymore and Microsoft knows it. They sat on their desktop monopoly for too long and the rest of the industry flew past them while they were sleeping.

    6. Re:Open Source Windows by trparky · · Score: 2

      More and more people are choosing to dump the traditional desktop and go with mobile devices such as tablets and smartphones. Most people don't have a need for the traditional desktop anymore, most can get by with an iPad or some other Android-powered tablet.

      Windows 8 and by extension Windows 10 is a last ditch effort for Microsoft to hold onto some semblance of relevance in today's post-PC world. Unfortunately for Microsoft, Windows 8 was a flop and by extension Windows 10 will be a flop because nobody wants a Microsoft anything these days. Microsoft and by extension Windows used to be a household name, now it's not. The name on everyone's mind now is Apple with their iPad.

    7. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, supporting legacy software is why Microsoft is so successful. Nobody wants to buy a new computer or new OS only to find that their programs no longer work. This is the same reason why x86 is pretty much the only game in PC, server and supercomputer CPUs, because they are backward compatible and they are fast.

    8. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And good riddance to those people.

      Back in the 70s, 80s and most of the 90s, the only people who owned PCs were the technically minded, which includes programmers, engineers, graphics artists, musicians and hobbyists. Sometime around the late 90s and early 00s a huge influx of laymen and noobs jumped on the bandwagon because they wanted access to the internet. Now those same laymen are leaving for consumption devices such as tablets and smartphones while the techies will still have real computers.

      Basically, the PC world is returning back to what it once was, which is a positive change.

    9. Re:Open Source Windows by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      More and more people are choosing to dump the traditional desktop and go with mobile devices such as tablets and smartphones.

      And most people don't care if they can get the source to what runs on it. You can't get all the source code to iOS either, so my point still stands. I care, but most people don't care, so it's still a dumb thing to say (AC comment above.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:Open Source Windows by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Just b'cos Linux is garbage doesn't mean that a potentially open source Windows has to be. It would still be in Microsoft's control in terms of updates, just like nobody outside Google or Mozilla can update Chromium or FireFox. Advantage of an open source Windows could be that in future, somebody might just choose to stay w/ version 10.x instead of upgrading to 10.y, and decide to maintain that 'fork' themselves in-house, since it's only for in-house use. Doesn't mean that you'll suddenly get non-working drivers, or that nVidia cards will stop working w/ your PCs under Windows. Remember, Open Source != GPL, and Microsoft can use any license, including something they write themselves, to release this.

    11. Re:Open Source Windows by unixisc · · Score: 2

      The computing industry that we have today is not a Microsoft dominated industry anymore and Microsoft knows it. They sat on their desktop monopoly for too long and the rest of the industry flew past them while they were sleeping.

      They were not exactly sleeping. They saw the emergence of tablets & phones, and Windows 8 was their attempt at it. It would have been fine, had they not insisted on also forcing it on laptops and thereby forcing laptops to become touch-screen devices. By doing that, they were forced to totally revisit that w/ Windows 10. Had Microsoft left Windows 7 alone, maybe replacing only the kernel, and instead, released Windows 8 just for tablets & Windows Phone 8 just for Phones, they'd probably have had more traction w/ Mobile App vendors. But since they were so busy fixing Windows 8.x on their desktop, both iOS and Android progressed miles ahead of them. I don't see them ever catching up, unless Apple or Google do something really screwy to their own platforms.

    12. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lawlz amirite>

    13. Re:Open Source Windows by vilanye · · Score: 1

      Microsoft's problem is that it forgot its core business and somehow thought that Apple and Google were competitors.

      Its core business is not and never will be home consumers, yet they have blown billions chasing them while leaving its core business hanging.

      It is plain stupidity and envy.

    14. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft makes far more money from sales to home users than to businesses. Home users are and have been Microsoft's core business since MS-DOS 1.0.

    15. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More and more people are choosing to dump the traditional desktop and go with mobile devices such as tablets and smartphones.

      No they are augmenting their desktop/laptop with tablets and/or smartphones. There is no significant shrinking of the desktop/laptop market.

      Windows 8 was a flop and by extension Windows 10 will be a flop because nobody wants a Microsoft anything these days.

      You say that but the evidence demonstrates the contrary. Windows 8, and its free update 8.1, even taken separately both have more marketshare than desktop Linux has ever even come close to. Every year there are pronouncements by people like you and the "year of the linux desktop" people that Microsoft is dying and will be gone soon and every single year you are proven wrong again. People said it with ME and they were wrong, people said it with Vista and they were wrong, people said it with 8 and they were wrong and now you are saying it with 10 and you are wrong because you have the same nonsensical reasoning all the other naysayers have.

    16. Re:Open Source Windows by will_die · · Score: 2

      Nope, going by revenue from a few years ago, rough calculations which is why not at 100%.
      8% came from entertainment/devices so home
      70% from servers and offerings only available to businesses or similar.
      20% from windows and windows live so both home and business.

    17. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What specific technologies did they invent that caused them to "fly past"?

      Android and IOS are largely devices that facilitate messaging and entertainment. They suck at bulk data entry, and at even the most rudimentary data analysis tasks.

      What has changed is BYOD and "Open Office" concepts which have largely been determined to be abject failures by incompetent managers so vein they are unable to understand how their employee's work. The Media has largely emulated that vanity, in a desperate attempt to stay relevant in a sea of misinformation and intentional lies. The Market has fed it with plenty of capital.

      Linux is built around the philosophy of doing one thing and doing that thing well; windows is built around the philosophy of being able to do everything and thus has about 6 generations of shims; the registry, WMIC, WBEM, DDE, and so forth; holding things together. It's gotten so kludgy that the new languages like Powershell conveniently forget how to do basic things the old languages did because they that one thing is hard to do. Try mounting printers based on group membership in Powershell. PITB.

      I Still have issues getting a phone to connect to wireless, mount a printer, and print a pdf document to it. What the F!@#!@#?

      Microsoft had a failed core bread-and-butter business get hammered for a good chunk of revenue by a specialized device and they responded by emulating instead of innovating. This time around they're going to innovate, we'll see what they come up with.

    18. Re:Open Source Windows by Graymalkin · · Score: 1

      For the past twenty years Microsoft's two major sources of income were Windows and Office. One is an operating system to make the computer go and the other is software to let people do something with it.

      Windows is mostly tied to the sales of x86 computers. PC sales peaked in about 2010 and aren't likely to get back to that high point. That doesn't mean Microsoft is doomed. They're doing the smart thing and porting their software to growing platforms.

      This means the market for Office can explode. Not only do they keep their position on PCs but can expand it to iOS and Android devices of which there are billions.

      Office on iOS and Android means there's a bridge between the Microsoft dominated world of the PC and the mobile world where they have an inferior position. This reinforces their desktop position because Office remains the de facto standard in business, even when their mobile devices don't run Windows.

      Microsoft isn't alone here. Adobe, Autodesk, and plenty of other traditional software houses are looking to extend their reach to mobile platforms. Mobile isn't necessarily replacing the traditional desktop but is growing independently.

      --
      I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
    19. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am not saying this as a troll. Linux has it's uses for specialized servers.

      That would be why Linux/unix has far more users on office machines (Mac/Chromebook/tablets), mobile (Android), embedded (pretty much everywhere - more users than everything else combined), supercomputers (99.7% of the top 500) etc. etc. While windows is still technically on top on the desktop (and highly visible because of it) it's already lost overall.

      But if people wanted to be freed they would have last decade. Windows is reliable now since NT came and gets shit done

      Actually, no it doesn't. Everybody's rightly scared of viruses and malware, wondering why their desktop is dog slow, wondering why it's all so complicated and as a result they're trying to find alternatives. One of the reasons why mobile and tablets are so popular is by comparison they just work. If Microsoft wants to regain users they have to solve their usability problems but they'll find that difficult with their hyper-competitive bureaucracy. Windows 8 is unpopular largely because of poor usability - not reliability, not compatibility, not appearance but slowness, pointless and counter-intuitive to existing windows users "charms", poor menu organization, pointless new set of icons, slow transition effects, unsolicited and irritating advertising in the app store etc.

    20. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Damn, you are stupid.

      99% of home "sales" are OEM sales that were massively discounted, not retail sales. Retail Windows sales is an insignificant part of MS's revenue.

      Its prime profit center is selling to businesses and more specifically the server room and it will always be so.

      PC sales for home are dwindling because the average user can do everything they need to on a tablet and MS fails hard in this market. The only reliable home PC market that they have left is the gamer market and Valve is trying to break that.

      XBox is a huge money sink.

      Windows phone has failed, every time.

      That stupid home server of theirs failed.

      They simply fail when it comes to selling to home users and always have. Even when PC sales were increasing year after year, people just bought the machine and didn't know or care what Windows was, they still don't. Just like they don't really know what an Android tablet is or what IOS is.

    21. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol you are a fucking idiot there are only a couple thousand business but billions of home users

      you fail

    22. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PC sales for home are dwindling because the average user can do everything they need to on a tablet and MS fails hard in this market.

      Sales are not dwindling though and that is precisely for the reason that this idea of the "average user" being somebody who just requires a web browser is completely wrong. Yes the majority require a web browser but that is common to the average user, not the only thing the average user does.

      XBox is a huge money sink.

      But it is hugely popular and they are in it for the long haul, these sorts of things require a large upfront investment.

      Windows phone has failed, every time.

      It might not be anywhere near the dominance of iOS and Android but that doesnt mean it is a failure, in fact it has a larger slice of the smartphone market than Linux has ever had of the desktop market.

      They simply fail when it comes to selling to home users and always have.

      Then how do you explain the XBox and the growth in Surface and Lumia? They even charge for XBox Live over the free Playstation competitor PSN and still command nearly half the console gaming market.

    23. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck?

      Big business pay MS millions of dollars a year.

      MS is a company that makes the bulk of its money selling to the enterprise.

      You MS cock eaters are really fucking stupid.

    24. Re:Open Source Windows by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows phone has never had more than 2% of the global market, ever.

      Linux desktop is unmeasurable. There are countless desktops that started out with Windows installed but were promptly wiped after purchase, yet MS considers those MS "installs".

      Much like they consider a shared host running windows but each website on it is counted separately.

      The Xbox has never made a single penny in profit.

      It has been what? 15 years? It is still losing money.

      The Surface? It is a total failure and MS is running away from that crap as fast as they can, which is why they are rushing Windows 10 out.

  3. Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by nickweller · · Score: 3, Informative
    1. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can I run autocad on it?

    2. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    3. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by slugstone · · Score: 0

      Is that all the problems with a Linux desktop? Glad to know, because I do not use autocad. :-)

    4. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Wine will never be a serious option for anyone but the enthusiast user.

      There is still no true active directory competitor on the enterprise.

      The list goes on.

    5. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Informative

      I answered the questions as asked. It's not the fault of the Linux community that Autodesk does not offer a native version.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    6. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      Obviously not. Running stuff through wine is fine for casual use, but it is not good enough for performance sensitive software like autocad. I am sure that's why anon listed it.

    7. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Autocad is not the typical application most people want to use on a desktop machine anyway. Most people just want to read their mail, browse the internet and write and send CVs, and for that Linux is perfect. I installed Debian on a friend's machine (no knowledge of linux whatsoever) and after almost a year I haven't heard a single complaint. He doesn't know or understand what it is he is using but it works and that's enough for him.

    8. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      No, but it is a good reason why linux is not chosen for desktop use by most people. It would be nice to see, though.

    9. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not the fault of the Linux community that Autodesk does not offer a native version.

      It might be the Linux community's fault. They have not made the platform an attractive choice for Autodesk.

    10. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are correct, lack of commercial software is definitely hindering the adoption of desktop Linux. That said, perhaps if enough AutoCAD users took that 20-50% performance hit on a temporary basis and just switched, Autodesk would finally release a native version.

      What's keeping me on OSX is Adobe Creative Cloud; taking a performance hit isn't an option for me as CC simply does not run under WINE. If Photoshop, Fireworks, and Illustrator weren't industry standard applications used by my clients, I'd use alternatives; however, I need files my clients send me to look exactly as they intended when I get them open and I need files I send my clients to actually open correctly for them, so I'm stuck using what they use. There are a number of threads, thousands of users, clamoring for Adobe to release Linux versions of their apps and, despite promises to do so for the past several years, it appears it is all for naught.

      You AutoCAD users should count yourself lucky that you actually have the option.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    11. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by epyT-R · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, I think autocad was used as an example and not as a complete list. The point being that most people expect to be able to run whatever software they need on their machines. Since most of their time is spent interfacing with proprietary software stacks at work/school and for hobby/entertainment use, linux is of limited utility. Sure, linux is fine for web browsing, but so is everything else. There's actually quite a bit of useful software out there in OSS land, but the unfortunate reality is that software is not usually the industry standard. It's certainly possible to use linux as a desktop for personal use and be productive, in fact, much more possible than it was a few years ago, but it does not replace systems that do run industry standard software like autocad/adobe/etc. Most users don't care what os they run, they just want access to the software they need to run.

    12. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're not going to do that. Their goal is to turn out complete projects ASAP and get paid. Certified acad drafters command high premiums so companies who employ them are willing to spend thousands on workstations. No one is interested in crippling that for politics.

    13. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Then we live with the status-quo, knowing full well that it is not going to change.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    14. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? Have more applications. How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? ***ERROR: Infinite loop detected.

      By that logic, nothing new should ever be successful.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    15. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      What does your post have to do with the question I was answering?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    16. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo

      If only, ah, the user video demonstrative ah, could use in English, ah sentences it will be being well!

    17. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Autocad is not the typical application most people want to use on a desktop machine anyway. Most people just want to read their mail, browse the internet and write and send CVs, and for that Linux is perfect.

      Windows does all that and also runs AutoCAD.

    18. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Kjella · · Score: 1

      It's not their fault that I can't play GTA V either, but it's a pretty good reason to stay on Windows. I have used WINE quite a bit back when I tried to run Linux and really half the problem with it is the same as with overclocking, if it's buggy now is it the application or the emulation? And what do you do if there's a bug somewhere in the bowels of WINE that nobody will support? Playing around with it on my desktop where it's my time on the line is fine, I wouldn't rely on it in a business setting.

      Same goes with lack of drivers, proprietary protocols, proprietary file formats and whatnot it's not anybody's fault. It's still a pain in the ass for anyone trying to use Linux where the de facto standard is something else. That said, with mobile and tablets there's a whole lot of non-Windows code being written out there, I wonder when Google will get serious about an Android desktop. Or at least something more widely targeted than Chromebook.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    19. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why bother then? Easier to just use what came with computer which is Windows.

      Mate is a fork for the now obsolete gnome 2 4 years ago. I left linux 4 years ago because of nonsense like 5 his realizing gnome 3 made it game over.

      Why would someone want to be free of Microsoft? It just works and is stable now. It ain't 1998 anymore where you could make a case since Windows now has an NT kernel

    20. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      The correct answer is Linux is a kernel, not a distro. And distros ate getting better, and the desktop environments are getting better.

      I counted two obvious bugs in that demo, one that the presenter apparently stumbled on. A single distro does not really refute a generalization, and one with obvious presentation issues definitely does not succeed.

      It is progress.

    21. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Mate is a fork for the now obsolete gnome 2 4 years ago.

      Your definition of obsolete seems to ignore the part where it still works better on older hardware than Gnome 3 / Unity / etc... Not everyone needs or wants a high-end graphics card, most of which require a noisy little fan that when it fails makes your video card go "pop".

      Also, newer isn't always better.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    22. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows is a legacy platform. People write software for Linux and OSX.

    23. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope. They just need superior platform. The users will come.

    24. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Altrag · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You do realize that "enough AutoCAD users" just doesn't exist? Most users, especially those who are using the software for their work, don't really give a rats ass if they're using a "FOSS" system. Most of them probably don't even know what that acronym stands for never mind what it means.

      Most users only care if the software works, and works with as little effort as possible. End of story. Just like most people don't really pay attention to the cleanliness of your kitchen as long as the food tastes good and doesn't make them sick.

      Of course we have government food inspectors to ensure that your kitchen is clean and that your employees wash their hands and whatever. Something similar might be interesting for software development but would be a lot more challenging as there's not really any globally correct best practices like there is with food prep (and of course there's the political aspect of empowering government over business practices, which never goes over well in the US even when its demonstrably beneficial never mind a situation like this where its somewhat questionable.)

    25. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Khyber · · Score: 2

      "Two items are occasionally highlighted at once."

      So? I still see that AND I see shit like two icons being blended together moving between windows on Windows.

      Glitches happen on EVERY OS, professional or not.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    26. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Kjella · · Score: 1

      How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? Have more applications. How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? ***ERROR: Infinite loop detected. By that logic, nothing new should ever be successful.

      The magic you're looking for is called "investments". I can't run an ad hoc burger shop from my home kitchen and make that a viable business by selling one burger, then two, three and so on. I'd have to find a location, get furniture and equipment, supplies, utility services, permits and staff so I can keep stable business hours and so on. On day one I'm in a net negative and I'll pretty quickly need a big turnaround to cover running costs and make a return on investment. The software business is the exception here where many have started with nothing and just written code without any real investment except time.

      In practice that's how it is for many software projects too, if you want to launch an AAA game you can't write a little, sell a little and so on. You need to hire lots of people, give them enough time (= money) and make a big splash selling for more than you spent. Or something boring like accounting software, if you can't do the tax forms right it simply won't sell. That's generally how the world works, people want to buy finished products not buy the book while it's written or the movie while it's filmed. But that investment requires a return on investment.

      Which brings us to open source, which sucks at that. Service and support is almost purely a "What have you done for me lately?" business, if it's the kind of software you'd buy support for in the first place. You have Kickstarter and other crowdfunding schemes, but you have no idea what and if anything really is going to be delivered at the end of the day. And there could be a lot of bad blood if someone does the heavy lifting while someone else gets paid off for exposing the functionality. Cooperation and money generally don't mix well. So that is why I think open source is often caught in this Catch-22, it's not that it's impossible to get out of but you'll get no reward for making the effort.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    27. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people dont run AutoCad so you are 100% full of shit.

    28. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Notice how all of the versions of AutoCAD listed there are ancient versions? Also notice how the most recent versions tested all have a status of "garbage"?

      Sorry, try again. Then afterwards, let me know if Wine can run the latest versions of Illustrator, ACDSee, Premiere, Vegas Pro, Avid Media Composer, Pro Tools, FL Studio, 3ds Max, LightWave 3D, Visual Studio, Crysis 3 and Elite: Dangerous.

    29. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Why would someone want to be free of Microsoft?

      Better question: Why is it still an A/B choice in the day and age of virtual computing? It's not like you even have to deal with the hassle of dual booting anymore. I run Slackware as my native OS, use it for >50% of my daily tasks, and still have the option of firing up Windows in a VM when the need arises.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    30. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until they realise their sound, video, networking and/or other hardware doesn't work correctly. Or until they try to install a piece of popular or professional software or they buy a game and wonder why the hell it won't work. That's when Linux gets dropped like the sack of flaming shit it is and Windows is installed.

    31. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It might run under Wine for now but a future release will break it and nobody will accept bug reports to fix Wine to get it running again. Just look at how many programs on WineHQ AppDB used to be rated Platinum and with current Wine versions are now just Garbage. Look at how many programs broke when upgrading from Wine 1.1.24 to 1.1.25 due to the changes in memory management - programs that could no longer reserve a fixed memory area for themselves all bit the big one.

    32. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy, make a stable platform. Right now, all linux distros including DE's are unstable, buggy, and updates easily break things and this is on a daily basis. The stability problem is caused by too many inexperienced amateur programmers getting involved with FOSS and who don't understand regression testing. They fix(not really) one thing but create hundreds of other bugs as the result and this just keeps going and going and I doubt autodesk or adobe would be able to keep up with all these changes on a daily basis. Then you have the gpl which enforces open source no closed source regardless if a developer is embedding gpl code into their own closed source proprietary product.

    33. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because running stuff in a VM is shit for performance and compatibility. I'd like to see how well your emulated Windows environment runs any non-trivial program or game.

      If you want multiple OSes, then multi-boot is still the way to go. These days with Windows booting in less than 10 seconds it's not a big deal.

    34. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Windows is a legacy platform. People write software for Linux and OSX.

      ...and then you woke up.

    35. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like when windows sort of "hangs" and you grap a window and move it over the screen to "draw" on it.
      it leaves "traces" behind and looks sort of like a springboard effect.

    36. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The majority of Americans don't use productivity apps(office, photoshop, maya, 3d studio max, ect..) or game but they pretty much use their computers to web surf, watch movies, and listen to music. They are also moving towards android phones which does everything for them and leaving behind those large, clunky, power consuming, loud computers.

    37. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      It's not the fault of the Linux community that Autodesk does not offer a native version.

      Well it's a chicken-and-egg problem: Why would Autodesk or Adobe or Dassault or whoever go to the effort of porting to a platform that has no users? And what would they get out of expending all that effort of getting their users switching from Windows to Linux? The desktop Linux community needs to make Linux a compelling alternative so it gets users, it needs to be innovative, a leader rather than a follower. People developed for the iPhone/Android platforms because they were a disruptive market-changer from the Blackberry/Palm/Windows smartphone incumbents, if they had copied the incumbents nobody would have been interested.

      The desktop Linux community needs to innovate and provide users some really compelling thing that draws people away from Windows and OSX, even monumental mistakes (Window Me, Windows Vista, Windows 8 or OSX dropping support for semi-recent hardware) that have been almost universally panned, have not driven people to Linux so it is clear that hoping for Microsoft and/or Apple to fail for desktop Linux to succeed isn't going to happen.

    38. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? Have more applications. How do they do that? Have more users. How do they do that? ***ERROR: Infinite loop detected.

      By that logic, nothing new should ever be successful.

      No you're just not being imaginative enough. You think Apple looked at the tablet market and thought "well we could make a tablet but nobody would make applications for it because it doesn't have any users"? No they created an innovative product that appealed to end users, people started using it and developers started developing for it. People don't have to switch to Linux in one go, if Linux can offer innovation such that people justify buying a Linux system in addition to their existing computer then that will be enough for it to gradually gain users and applications. The problem is it offers no such innovation.

    39. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Most people just want to read their mail, browse the internet and write and send CVs, and for that Linux is perfect.

      If that's actually all you want to do then it doesn't matter what operating system you use so people will just use the incumbent, any system is perfect for that, even a tablet with a bluetooth keyboard is perfect for that.

    40. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You mean why bother answering explicitly asked questions with explicit and accurate answers when the trolls will come crawling out of the woodwork the moment you do? I asked myself that very same question recently and the answer I came up with is that you guys are really fucking entertaining. Why wouldn't I want you replying? I just find it amusing how many of your kind can't discern food from bait.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    41. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean why bother answering explicitly asked questions with explicit and accurate answers

      No he means why bother running it on a platform on which it is unsupported (and most of the more recent versions dont work well at all). Yes you can get some (maybe even most) of your applications to work on Linux through Wine but what is the point when you could just use Windows where you know they all work?

    42. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You do realize that "enough AutoCAD users" just doesn't exist? Most users, especially those who are using the software for their work, don't really give a rats ass if they're using a "FOSS" system. Most of them probably don't even know what that acronym stands for never mind what it means.

      You do realize that I'm a Mac user and not an FOSS advocate? Using your "anti-advocacy" tone with me is unnecessary and counterproductive. Additionally, I think you meant "enough AutoCAD users who can afford the temporary loss of productivity"; if a sizable percentage started using Linux, Autodesk would have to respond with a Linux version before a competitor did (or, and I know this is unlikely, but it's certainly not impossible, before a FOSS CAD application ate their lunch).

      Most users only care if the software works, and works with as little effort as possible.

      Which is why I'm a Mac user. For me, a well configured Debian install would be less work, but lacks some of the software I need in my daily work; the reason OSX is more work for me is that a lot of the command line utilities have subtle differences from their Debian counterparts and I do manage a considerable number of Debian servers, so "just get used to the Mac way" simply isn't an answer. It's still less work than Windows though, and similar enough that I can be comfortable managing the system without having to wonder where Apple moved this or that configuration option in the GUI, if they even implemented a GUI for it at all.

      In short, not only do I get your point, I highlighted it in my own post. Likewise, as in my example, if the Adobe Creative Cloud users who have been asking for a Linux version slowly started switching to Linux (which, for us, would mean switching to alternative image and media editing tools and breaking compatibility with the tools used by our peers), Adobe would have to respond by releasing a Linux version or simply lose that business. There would also be the risk of one or more of those tools supplanting Adobe's application(s) as the industry standard.

      I'm not saying it could, or even should happen, just that it's what would need to happen in order for Adobe (despite their promises a few years ago) or Autodesk to actually develop for Linux.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    43. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      It works perfectly fine for everything except DirectX gaming. I don't think you need to worry about Call of Duty in your office environment. There's a difference between a VM and emulation, just so you know.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    44. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      It's not their fault that I can't play GTA V either, but it's a pretty good reason to stay on Windows.

      I never said it wasn't, I was merely pointing out that I accurately answered the question that was asked and setting straight what I thought was the root cause of epyT-R not understanding that right out of the gate.

      Playing around with it on my desktop where it's my time on the line is fine, I wouldn't rely on it in a business setting.

      Me either, and I was not advocating that anyone could. The question posed was "Can I run autocad on [Linux]?" and the answer was "Yes." Nowhere was it specified that it had to run flawlessly (though that's generally what a "gold" rating means) or be suitable for business use, nor was it suggested that either of those were the case.

      Same goes with lack of drivers, proprietary protocols, proprietary file formats and whatnot it's not anybody's fault.

      Well, huh, it would seem that lack of drivers is the manufacturer's fault; if they don't want to release a driver they can release a spec and someone else will write the driver. If they release the spec and no driver gets written, then there's a lack of interest in the hardware, which is the fault of poor product design which, again, falls the the manufacturer. Proprietary protocols and file formats are the fault of the people implementing them; release the spec and the problem goes away.

      I wonder when Google will get serious about an Android desktop.

      Never. They have Chrome OS for that.

      Or at least something more widely targeted than Chromebook.

      Never. They have Android for that.

      It would be a shame for Chome OS to become more Android-like or vise-versa. Please, please, please don't ask for that. I know it sounds great at first, and I've considered wanting that, myself, but then I thought about it for a while and remembered what happened the last time someone tried to combine their Mobile and Desktop OSes. Plenty of people use Windows 8; nobody actually likes it.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    45. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Well it's a chicken-and-egg problem

      Indeed, it is.

      Why would Autodesk or Adobe or Dassault or whoever go to the effort of porting to a platform that has no users?

      I wouldn't say that desktop Linux has no users. Linux workstations are not uncommon in a multimedia (audio/video) production workflow. In Adobe's case, thousands of users have participated in threads on Adobe's own forums, asking for a Linux version, to which they replied several years ago that they were working on it, soon followed by, more or less "ha ha we lied, now fuck off". It seems that a large and vocal group of your users begging you for it is a damn good reason.

      And what would they get out of expending all that effort of getting their users switching from Windows to Linux?

      Who says they have to make their users switch? Autodesk, Adobe, and Dassault all develop for Windows and OSX, they didn't pick up one platform and drop the other. If they've got a large number of users asking them to support a platform, they won't have to expend any effort making any one switch; making it possible is a different story as they'd have to actually build and release for that platform, which of course is not trivial. But to insinuate that they'd have to make anyone switch is just silly.

      I do, more or less ,agree with the rest of your post, though.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    46. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      "nothing new will ever be successful" is pretty much how it actually plays out, at least as far as operating systems are concerned. Windows stays on top because of application support, period. They've always maintained backwards-compatibility with their OSes from like 15 years prior. The last time they didn't was DOS, where they had no previous OS. At that time the market was entirely different: there wasn't much to be backwards-compatible with and any exclusive apps on a competing platform were easily duplicated.

    47. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Following the format of your reply, so as not to confuse you:

      I was answering the question that was asked (and not advocating for anything at all). Yes you can infer that I was advocating for some (maybe even most!) people to use WINE but what is the point in reading so much into a simple, one word answer when you could just use logic and know that I was only answering what was asked?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    48. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You basically just made the same point I was making. It is the person I was replying to who wasn't being imaginative enough. As for the innovation offered by Linux, well, it's a kernel; it's up to the individual distros to offer some form of innovative user experience. I won't say I find anything Ubuntu offers all that innovative, personally, but my mother sure took to it. She does keep a Windows machine around for gaming, but for general use she prefers Ubuntu because it does a much better job of staying out of her way than Windows does. Perhaps I don't find that innovative because I was an avid Windows user long before XP started popping up system bar notifications about every little thing the system did; not that was innovative. It wasn't good, but it sure was innovative.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    49. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Notice how all of the versions of AutoCAD listed there are ancient versions?

      I'm not an AutoCAD user and have no clue what the current version is so, no, I did not notice that.

      Sorry, try again

      No need, the question didn't state a version, it just asked whether or not AutoCAD could run on Linux. The answer I gave was accurate.

      Then afterwards, let me know if Wine can run the latest versions of Illustrator, ACDSee, Premiere, Vegas Pro, Avid Media Composer, Pro Tools, FL Studio, 3ds Max, LightWave 3D, Visual Studio, Crysis 3 and Elite: Dangerous.

      Wow, it's like you think I'm advocating for Linux here. I'm really not, I was just answering a simple "yes or no" question. I answered it with a simple (and accurate) "yes". Read the rest of the thread and you'll see that I mention Adobe's tools (two of which are in your list) specifically as a reason that I'm not, personally, a desktop Linux user. As for FL Studio, I've got it running right now; the downloader doesn't work and the Vorbis codec needed to be installed manually just like with previous versions, but it works well enough. I do have a dedicated Windows machine that I use for any real use of FL Studio but it runs well enough in WINE on OSX to dick around with it when I'm sitting on the couch, if I don't need the rest of my gear.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    50. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Huh, I wonder if that's why I wasn't advocating for WINE as a solution but, rather, just answering the question another /. user had asked?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    51. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      And, at the end of the day, this whole thread started because I answered "yes" to a simple "yes or no" question. Not advocating that it was a good idea, or that it would be reliable, or that anyone should do it, just that yes, it can be done.

      Jesus, you'd think I just drew a cartoon of Mohammed or something. I was just answering a simple question, not trying to start a holy way.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    52. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Holy war. Silly typo.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    53. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say that desktop Linux has no users.

      Ok well relatively few of their target users use Linux.

      In Adobe's case, thousands of users have participated in threads on Adobe's own forums, asking for a Linux version

      Well it's a cost-benefit analysis, if there are indeed thousands of users that aren't existing Windows/OSX customers then maybe it is worth it. Seems as though it isn't.

      Who says they have to make their users switch?

      Nobody, but obviously the reason for this supposed demand is from users wanting to use a Linux version rather than a Windows/OSX version so how does that benefit the vendors?

      If they've got a large number of users asking them to support a platform, they won't have to expend any effort making any one switch

      Targeting/porting to another platform is a huge expense! What do they get from their existing customers in return for this? Or are you suggesting there is a significant amount of people who are not currently users that will become users if they support that platform?

      But to insinuate that they'd have to make anyone switch is just silly.

      I didn't, but obviously some of their customers will switch from one platform to the other. What do these companies get out of that?

    54. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by weilawei · · Score: 1

      I often run into this.

      If you answer a simple question with a simple, factual answer, and someone complains that the answer isn't to their satisfaction (barring factual errors), it indicates that that person has an axe to grind. These people are clueless shits and/or trolls. Either way, it's a waste of time talking to them.

      Plus, many people seem unable tell a statement of fact from one of opinion. Over the years, I've informally asked people if they ever had to do an exercise in school asking them to distinguish between the two. The vast majority of people I've spoken with have said that they did not. /anecdote

    55. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      If they've got a large number of users asking them to support a platform, they won't have to expend any effort making any one switch

      Targeting/porting to another platform is a huge expense!

      I think you missed the second half of my sentence there, which says exactly that. That's not making the users switch, though.

      But to insinuate that they'd have to make anyone switch is just silly.

      I didn't

      Maybe I misinterpreted, but that's how I read this:

      And what would they get out of expending all that effort of getting their users switching from Windows to Linux?

      obviously some of their customers will switch from one platform to the other. What do these companies get out of that?

      Well, if their customers are looking to switch, it's because they've found some other tool or application on the new platform that they are wanting to use (or are already using) which, likely, means they have one machine for each platform. That means the customer now has an incentive (not needing to own and maintain two machines, or move files between them) to replace the application that does not work on the new platform. What the companies get out of developing for the new platform their users want to run on is some amount of safety against being replaced by users who no longer want to (or can) support multiple systems just to keep using an old vendor's software.

      In short, yes, you may have my money already, but will you get my money for the next version?

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    56. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's twice in a row I screwed up quotes. I think I need to call it a day. I'm sure you'll all have plenty for me to respond to in the morning.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    57. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      You basically just made the same point I was making. It is the person I was replying to who wasn't being imaginative enough.

      Well no, the person you were replying to said:

      "It might be the Linux community's fault. They have not made the platform an attractive choice for Autodesk."

      You introduced this loop of the need to get applications as the way to get users, whereas I think he's right that the development community needs to make it an attractive platform for developers in some way. Maybe that means ease of porting applications or some incentive to grow the userbase despite a lack of major application vendors offering their products for it.

      As for the innovation offered by Linux, well, it's a kernel; it's up to the individual distros to offer some form of innovative user experience.

      Yes well in the context of this discussion "Linux" in comparison to "Windows" means "desktop Linux distribution".

    58. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      These people are clueless shits and/or trolls. Either way, it's a waste of time talking to them.

      I'll agree that it's pointless to talk to the clueless, but the trolls can be damned entertaining at times. At any rate, the question was rhetorical; I actually quite enjoy baiting the trolls and leading them on until they tire themselves out. I actually find it quite relaxing (especially when they insist that I must be getting all worked up over things).

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    59. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I see. I actually find it simpler to develop for POSIX systems than for Windows and, despite being a Mac user, most of my development is done for Linux systems, so maybe I don't view it as an unattractive platform to develop for. That probably colors my perspective somewhat and certainly explains why I didn't see yours. Mind you, most of what I develop is CLI-based or has a very minimal GUI, so I may feel differently about Linux if I had to rely more heavily on GUI toolkits. Of course, all of this ignores that the reality of this thread is that I answered "yes" to "can I run AutoCAD on Linux?" That is a factual answer and I never insinuated that it was a good idea. And yet here we are.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    60. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but I need to worry about professional 3D modelling software and other DirectX accelerated programs in my office.

      VMs still emulate hardware, just not the CPU.

    61. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the second half of my sentence there, which says exactly that. That's not making the users switch, though.

      Read it instead as providing the option for users to switch, it is exactly the same amount of effort in porting the application. Or are you saying this is not about existing users and purely about new users?

      Well, if their customers are looking to switch it's because they've found some other tool or application on the new platform that they are wanting to use

      And this new tool obviously doesn't work on the existing platform, so the question is who feels more threatened? The user is likely to put pressure on both vendors and see who caves first.

      In short, yes, you may have my money already, but will you get my money for the next version?

      Well the competition is a long way from viable so the question is whether the "new tool or application" on Linux is not available on Windows/OSX with no viable alternative as well?

      You can't really say whether what they are doing is right or wrong without knowing whether this supposed demand (which I'm not even sure there is much of) exists, whether it is driven by new or existing users, what is the reason these users want to use Linux and whether there are enough to form a viable market for a Linux version. Based on the current actions of almost all the major vendors it would seem the values here do not add up to a viable business case.

      Even if you take major fierce competitors with extremely expensive applications - here's just one example - like Creo, Solidworks and Inventor you will find that none of them do a version other than for Windows, this really does suggest there is no viable market for it, if there is then why is nobody going after it? In fact PTC even dropped Linux support for Pro/Engineer because there were so few users it wasn't even worth them maintaining that version.

    62. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hasn't happened since XP. DWM took care of that long ago.

      Linux, on the other hand, still has ton of glitches. In 2015, LOL!

    63. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Of course, all of this ignores that the reality of this thread is that I answered "yes" to "can I run AutoCAD on Linux?" That is a factual answer and I never insinuated that it was a good idea.

      Ok but surely you can see that is a pretty disingenuous answer can't you? I'll grant you the question is probably too open-ended but look at the link you posted, the most recent version it says runs is 3 years old and the most recent version it says runs better than "garbage" is from 7 years ago.

      Based on that data no reasonable person is going respond with an unequivocal "yes" to that question, given there are some serious caveats and limitations.

    64. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Again, I never said it ran well, or that recent versions ran. Hell, I looked, saw a couple "gold" ratings, and said "yup, it runs", that's good enough for a yes. It wasn't worth my time to look any closer than that for what amounted to a joke answer to an obviously joke question. The ensuing holy war sure has been entertaining, though.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    65. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look at the link! This is why Linux gets such a bad wrap: idiots like you giving daft responses like that. So the person asking the question comes back and tells you it doesnt run and you response is going to be what?

      'Well you asked if autocad would run, you didnt ask if the latest version of autocad would run in a capacity equal to or at least comparable in level of functionality and stability to how it runs on Windows'

    66. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Here is the information from the link:

      Version Description Rating
      2000 Release 15, Version 15.0 Gold
      2000i Release 16, Version 15.1 Silver
      2002 Release 17, Version 15.6 Silver
      2004 Release 18, Version 16.0 Platinum
      2005 Release 19, Version 16.2 Garbage
      2006 Release 20, Version 16.2 Gold
      2007 Release 21, Version 17.0 Garbage
      2008 Release 22, Version 17.1 Gold
      2009 Release 23, Version 17.2 Garbage
      2010 Release 24, Version 18.0 Garbage
      2011 AutoCAD 2011 Garbage
      2012 The 2012 version of AutoCAD Garbage
      R13 Release 13 Silver
      R14 Release 14 Gold

      Now based on this information what would be your response if a friend of yours asked "does AutoCAD run on Linux"? Would it just be "yes"? Because quite clearly we can see that anything after 2012 (R13 and R14 are late 90s) there is no information for and anything after 2008 has a rating of "garbage". So the question really is are you genuinely a fuckwit or are you just acting like one?

      Unless you have an agenda then the answer is obvious to any reasonable persion: Unless you want to run a specific version 7 years old or older then no it will not run in any reasonable capacity.

    67. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Again, I never said it ran well, or that recent versions ran. Hell, I looked, saw a couple "gold" ratings, and said "yup, it runs", that's good enough for a yes.

      Well that speaks volumes I suppose.

    68. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by vilanye · · Score: 1

      The NVIDIA 900 series doesn't turn on its fan until it hits 60C and when it does turn on it stays at a low and quiet RPM.

      It is nice having a quiet but still powerful video card.

    69. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by vilanye · · Score: 1

      Most people don't use Autodesk. That is a very niche market.

    70. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like someone who has never worked in an enterprise environment. Good luck running a functional AD domain forest on pure linux servers.

    71. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your answer was both wrong and dishonest. You could clearly see that no recent version of AutoCAD works in Wine, yet you lied and said it worked anyway.

    72. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Nowhere was it specified that it had to run flawlessly (though that's generally what a "gold" rating means) or be suitable for business use, nor was it suggested that either of those were the case.

      Have you run it yourself? Because what I found with WINE was that although they promised to stop breaking things every ten minutes, every release has a pile of new regressions and a lot of stuff reported as gold won't run at all. It's been a while since I bothered to mess with it, though, and I just went ahead and paid for Windows 7.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    73. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Certified acad drafters command high premiums so companies who employ them are willing to spend thousands on workstations

      It's not just that; they're not running a bunch of other stuff on that workstation, or if they are, it's a bunch of other Windows software. Either way, the cost of the Windows license is peanuts compared to the cost of everything else. If you've got an Autocad license and a bitchin' machine to run it on with a big, pissed-off monitor, the price of Windows is lost in the noise.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    74. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You think it's just about user numbers?

      No, it's about creating a desktop platform that's not a POS first.

    75. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, it's like you think I'm advocating for Linux here. I'm really not, I was just answering a simple "yes or no" question.

      People see you as advocating for Linux because you gave a yes/no answer to a question which demonstrably --- based on the evidence you provided --- does not have a yes/no answer. You understand the difference dont you?

      Now since you are the one that posted the evidence you know it isn't yes/no or black/white yet still provided a deliberately disingenuous answer which is precisely what desperate apologists and/or trolls do.

    76. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      The NVIDIA 900 series doesn't turn on its fan until it hits 60C and when it does turn on it stays at a low and quiet RPM.

      I did not know that, thanks!

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    77. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Yes, volumes of context for the portion of my comment that you failed to quite.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    78. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      No, I haven't run it my self. I answered a question lacking proper constraints with an answer based on no constraints. If I had a Linux desktop sitting around and a couple of hours to track down one of the "gold" versions and the version of WINE that was used to get that "gold" status (this is listed, by the way), I might have, but really it was a stupid question so it got a stupid answer. AutoCAD is a niche application; a desktop application need only be able to run general purpose applications in order to gain wide use (see Chrome OS), workstation apps like AutoCAD most often run on workstations, not your typical consumer desktop (which is woefully under-powered for that purpose in any serious capacity). That Windows happens to be both a desktop OS and a workstation OS is coincidental to this point; we're not talking about Linux on the workstation here. Try to remember the days before Vista, when Microsoft offered a distinct workstation OS and you'll see what I'm getting at.

      At any rate, there's a huge gap between "yes, you can" and "yes, you should" and I'm impressed that so many people are jumping it so easily, without any direction whatsoever.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    79. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      No it's ok, I read what you wrote, I can see you have changed your mind from "I gave a factual answer" - to a question that clearly does not have a binary answer - to "I was just joking". Whether you were being stupid or acting stupid doesn't really matter.

      In any case the point from where I picked up the conversation still stands that Linux is an unattractive prospect for most developers and most users and to change that requires innovation, this is how all new platforms disrupt the status quo.

    80. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Huh, interesting... "Can I [x]?" questions, lacking any other constraints, actually do have binary answers. Yes you can or no you can not. "[How|When|Where|Who|What|Why" can I [x]?" on the other hand...

      If it is possible to grab some version of AutoCAD and run it on top of some version of WINE on a system running some version of the Linux kernel then, yes, you can run AutoCAD on Linux. If the poster was looking for a more specific answer, perhaps that should have been specified in the question; as it stands, my answer is factually correct in the context of the question, as stated. That said, yes, it was a joke. A factually correct joke.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    81. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      And this new tool obviously doesn't work on the existing platform, so the question is who feels more threatened? The user is likely to put pressure on both vendors and see who caves first.

      The tool was obviously compelling enough to prompt the user to set up and maintain a second workstation to use it. In that case, the user is more likely to replace and abandon their old toolchain if they no longer want to (or can afford to) maintain a multi-platform workflow.

      When your customers are happy and you're the industry standard, your competition doesn't even bother trying to take them from you. When your customers start looking for alternatives, you can bet your bottom dollar the competition will kick development into high gear and build the features they need.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    82. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      The tool was obviously compelling enough to prompt the user to set up and maintain a second workstation to use it. In that case, the user is more likely to replace and abandon their old toolchain if they no longer want to (or can afford to) maintain a multi-platform workflow.

      But this scenario doesn't exist. That's why there's not even an example of it, that's why in the real world example I gave what happened is the exact opposite of what you're saying.

    83. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Huh, interesting... "Can I [x]?" questions, lacking any other constraints, actually do have binary answers. Yes you can or no you can not. "

      Ok well I just tried to run AutoCAD using Wine and it didn't work, so you're wrong, the answer is no.

    84. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You're right, it doesn't exist today. It's called a hypothetical scenario. Honestly, if these companies want to take that risk it's fine by me, I'm not invested in any of them; I'm just setting myself up to be able to point and scream "I TOLD YOU SO!" when it happens. Maybe it never will, but it's certainly not impossible.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    85. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't disagree with that. Though it is what the "Year of the Linux Desktop" crew have been saying for nearly 20 years.

    86. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Personally, as an OSX desktop user who maintains a Windows machine for few Windows-only tasks (mostly platform testing) and more than a handful of Linux servers, I'm torn on the whole Linux desktop issue. On one hand, it would be nice to be able to use the same OS and tools on my desktop as I use on my servers; on the other hand, while the quality of the Windows desktop did increase substantially when Microsoft merged their desktop and workstation/server platforms into a single OS, the workstation and server platforms have suffered ever since. All the eye candy and "let me do that for you" user-friendliness gets in the way of managing a server in any sane fashion and I'd really rather not see that in my server distros. That said, even Ubuntu maintains separate desktop and server distributions, limiting that kind of crap to the desktop, so it might not be all bad.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    87. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      workstation apps like AutoCAD most often run on workstations, not your typical consumer desktop (which is woefully under-powered for that purpose in any serious capacity).

      Today's machine has orders of magnitude more horsepower than the machines Autocad was used on back in the day, but Autocad's basic functionality does not require orders of magnitude more horsepower. AutoCAD is not an especially demanding application; the amount of number-crunching involved pales compared to gaming, video editing, or other common tasks.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    88. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That you point out similar flaws from Windows does not still make Linux any better.

    89. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Spoken like someone who doesn't understand the difference between a workstation and a server.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    90. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Do more than 0.5% of Windows users care about CAD software?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    91. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The problem here for Linux is that MS Windows is usually good enough in most respects, and is unmatched in running software designed for Windows. An engineer might think of his computer as something he runs Solidworks on, and which does email and web surfing and stuff like that, and while the engineer likely knows the OS on the computer the engineer likely doesn't care. The proper way to select a desktop system is to decide what you want to run on it and build it from that. (That's why I run Linux, but I'm not exactly mainstream.)

      Linux does great in situations that don't specifically require running Windows-specific software.

      The question is what Linux can offer on the desktop that will appeal to lots of people, because at this point it's a numbers game, and Linux has to attract dozens of millions of people who want Linux-compatible software. Unfortunately, I have no idea what Linux can offer here. It's a good OS for people with very limited needs, and some people with unusual needs, and for situations where the OS does make a lot of difference, but software written for Linux that gets popular will be ported to Windows, to hit the mass market, and so there's no real incentive for the average user to use Linux.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    92. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Linux does great in situations that don't specifically require running Windows-specific software.

      But even then there's little reason to not just use Windows, that's the point. Linux needs to offer something to people other than extreme niches and the lowest common denominator use cases. If in fact you only need email and web browser (though I don't think that's a huge market) then any operating system - even tablet ones - is fine.

      It doesn't even need to be software-based, it could be a new hardware formfactor which a desktop Linux vendor could be first to market with. Like you have the iPhone and iPad which of course were followed by Android. And even the Surface and convertible Windows laptops but where is the pioneering innovation on the desktop Linux side? Desktop Linux is still just the operating system you shoehorn in later when the hardware is old.

    93. Re:Linux Mint 13 (Maya) MATE desktop demo by exomondo · · Score: 1

      ...of course Erwin Schrödinger gave us the thought experiment as a way to explain this lack of a binary answer to those whom it was not obvious many decades ago.

  4. Re:King Frosty, First of his Name! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hail, O Lord who created piss in thine own image.

  5. This one won't be ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    until it's in version 10.2 early next year.

  6. I kinda liked the icons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with them? just need some getting used to.

  7. There's no confirmation of the release date. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This synopsis is in error. The article linked does NOT confirm the release date, only still says it's a rumor.

    1. Re:There's no confirmation of the release date. by Mashiki · · Score: 2

      True on that. They just released 10130, but considering they're entering the tuning, tweaking, stabilizing phase, it's probably close to the final build. I'd say august-september, but july isn't unreasonable.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    2. Re:There's no confirmation of the release date. by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Newegg has it available for pre-order and set for an August 31 release date.

      http://www.newegg.com/Product/...

      Following Microsoft's usual pattern, you can expect RTM to be at least 6 months prior to general availability. So yeah, I think mid July is a likely time period.

    3. Re:There's no confirmation of the release date. by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      I just got a reservation notice for Win10 from Win8 itself. So it must be pretty close.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    4. Re:There's no confirmation of the release date. by Damnshock · · Score: 1

      Release date July 29th 2015

    5. Re:There's no confirmation of the release date. by Frescard · · Score: 3, Informative

      The confirmation is on the linked-to Microsoft blog: Hello World: Windows 10 Available on July 29

  8. If Micky$oft sold wine, instead of software... by rstanley · · Score: 1

    They would have to say:

    "We will sell ALL wine before it's time!"

    Borrowed from a Paul Masson Ad from the 70's!

  9. Windows Me Part 2 by Great+Big+Bird · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If this prerelease set goes "to market" within the next six months, it will be Windows Me all over again. A performance worst than Windows 8, they might just go down a little more.

    1. Re: Windows Me Part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Possibly, but since it's free to upgrade to for Win7-8.1, they'll rope in a lot more unsuspecting sheeple.
      I just can't get into this post-Windows store OS world of theirs. I don't use onedrive for anything important, yet its baked in and un-removable to Win10. Same with all the other 'necessary' apps that have to stick around in the file system in case a new user signs on, so they can present a stock/homogonenized appearance.
      The only thing looking better at this point is Windows Server 2016 Tech Preview 2, where at least the only crapware pre-installed is the store app.

    2. Re:Windows Me Part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fitting. MS has decided rather than make every second OS version good they will skip the good ones altogether.

    3. Re:Windows Me Part 2 by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      I don't think so. Vista was the pre-Win7 as Win8 is the pre-Win10.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Windows Me Part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. As much as I dislike Win 8.1 and 8, this is even worse. It's like 8.x but with more metro crap, an even worse menu, more ugly flat monochromatic windows, even less desktop-oriented. I don't care if it's free, there's just no way we're gonna run that!

    5. Re: Windows Me Part 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So shut it off and go on with your life. With multi-terabyte drives being the norm, don't tell me you are seriously concerned with disk space.

      I have entirely disabled the Windows Store and Modern UI on my Windows 8.1 computer also.

    6. Re:Windows Me Part 2 by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Have you actually tried the preview? Performance is good, usability is fine, it's a worthy upgrade from Windows 7 in most respects. The way MS has finally started listening to feedback is quite surprising too.

      As much as we love to hate Microsoft operating systems, Windows 10 is actually okay. It's going to be the next 7, the next good release that everyone updates to.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Windows Me Part 2 by Great+Big+Bird · · Score: 1

      I definitely have used it. I had to stop and start using windows 7 (this is all in a virtual machine on a newer mac) due to work a few weeks ago. I believe Windows 10 will be great — and I may even switch to it. However, I felt that it is not quite ready yet — and it is my experience that software as complex as this never quite reaches stability in two or three months. If I am wrong, I will be pleasantly surprised. It is my intention to upgrade my mother's Windows 7 machine to Windows 10 once I am satisfied with its stability —a month after release would likely give me reasonable feedback.

  10. Tiles and Apps don't work? by tompaulco · · Score: 2

    Tiles and Apps don't work? Well, that is at least some good news. Hopefully applications and the start menu work, though.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    1. Re:Tiles and Apps don't work? by deviated_prevert · · Score: 1

      Tiles and Apps don't work? Well, that is at least some good news. Hopefully applications and the start menu work, though.

      As it stands how and what you chose to remove or the start is completely up to you. You can pin applications that you use frequently and leave the ones that you don't in the "all programs" choice. Start in 10 is a huge improvement over the layout of any previous version of windows. You can remove excess baggage from the task bar on demand as well and this improves startup performance.

      All of the craps that require a tile that talks to the internet like; news, sports, weather, store, onedrive can easily be removed from the start. So can edge and IE 11 is actually quite good for a change and you can still set it up old school. Edge with was called Spartan for some stupid reason is decent with HTML5 and you can ditch flashplayer and use the net just fine the same as Chrome or Firefox.

      As far as hardware compatibility goes well My old semi pro but really great M-audio 24/96 delta soundcard is still supported by a windows 7 64 bit driver from Avid that works fine even though it is unscircum.... (OOPS) unsigned by Microsoft.

      On a long in the tooth government discard 2009-10 Lenovo core two duo 8400 with intel onboard graphics and a display port out Windows 10 ten boots from a spinning Sata2 7200rpm HDD to full user access without indexing the hell out of the drive after I login and does on average in 30 seconds from cold boot. People can dis Microsoft for many things but they are wrong if they think this is not a version of Windows that is decent, they have actually been listening this time. Somewhat.

      --
      This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
  11. MS Paint by nmb3000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I hadn't seen them laid out so clearly before, but now that I have, all I can say about the original Windows 10 icons (middle row) is oh my god.

    Seriously, what happened here? When did we go completely off the rails and let pea-brained designers start throwing this kind of bullshit around, calling it "modern" and "clean". No shit it's clean -- that recycle bin probably took all of 30 seconds to draw with the Line tool. No, faster probably, since they were just pulled out of the Windows 1.0 archives.

    I look at those three rows of icons and truly cannot fathom why someone would ever choose (especially) the second or third rows. They're low contrast, simpleton drivel that doesn't even do a good job of representing the objects they're trying to depict. Whoever created them should be fired, along with the manager that approved them.

    In fact, Microsoft would be well-served by firing the whole damned "UX" group and replacing this new-age cargo-cult mentality of user interface design with a scientific approach of usability studies and research. You know, that thing they used to do. Let Google and Apple waste their time with that hipster crap if they want to -- normal people and business just want to get shit done and you don't get off on the right foot to do that by making all your icons indistinguishable pale pastel blobs.

    --
    "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
    /)
    1. Re:MS Paint by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Seriously, what happened here?

      What happened is that Microsoft decided to design icons which would be visible at a variety of resolutions.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:MS Paint by BronsCon · · Score: 0

      So they went back to basic, low-color icons. I'm not disagreeing with their decision; in fact, I applaud them for it. I would, however, like to point out that those of us who complained when they moved away from that style in the first place were essentially told to shut up because the new high-color icons were better in every way. Now that we've spent the past decade telling everyone that high-color icons are better, it does feel like it's time to revert and tell them all they're wrong for having listened to us for the past decade, doesn't it?

      Derp.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    3. Re:MS Paint by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not exactly. Microsoft's "theme" now is flat UI. A lot of people think that means it just looks clean and simple (like what Google has been doing since...forever,) which is wrong. Flat meaning there's no sense of depth. So no shadows, no overlapping, no gradients, no sense of 3d whatsoever. The only differentiation between UI objects is a solid color change.

      Having a flat UI is easy to scale. But IMO it is very uninspired.

      GP says it's a hipster design that Google and Apple have been doing. Apple yes, Google no. Apple did copy Microsoft, however that was after Microsoft really badly learned from (but did not copy) Google. Microsoft dropped the skeumorphs Google doesn't use flat UI's. For example, open up chrome, and notice a gradient over the button bar, notice how the tab corners overlap, etc.

      Google's new Material Design specifically includes both overlapping objects and shadows. Simple in appearance? Yes. Flat? No. But it still scales to different resolutions just as easily as a flat UI.

    4. Re:MS Paint by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Oops made an editing mistake in that second paragraph. Oh well.

    5. Re:MS Paint by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2

      What you describe is skuemorphic design which objects mimic real world objects which is the old way of doing things.

      Look at the candy buttons and leather in the address bar to see why the art professors decided not to go this route anymore.

      With flat the design possibilities are endless as you can make the gui in a way you want and the user can focus on content-consumption and work. Not glass and depicting what a tiny pic of something like a skuemorphic button means. Think of Stop signs? They are simple colors and text.

      I am not saying I agree with this. Just reprinting what I read on art blogs. FYI it was Google that started this. Not Microsoft. The search is soo basic but is powerful underneath

    6. Re:MS Paint by jones_supa · · Score: 0

      It seems that Microsoft has learned to make a stable, fast and secure OS, but at the same time they have let the user experience and graphic design departments to rot.

    7. Re:MS Paint by Sevalecan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps normal people and businesses in general just want to get shit done... But it seems like the hipsters always end up running the show. Somehow companies like Microsoft see that as innovation. After all, trying to enforce Metro on 8 was pretty much a hipster move. Not very good for usability or familiarity in my experience. Then masses of people trying to get shit done had to inform the hipsters at Microsoft that this was a really dumb idea. It's different so it must be good!!!!!!!

      Honestly I don't care much about the icons though. Metro was much more annoying. My problem is I don't really know of a good way to change to a different theme for windows. I prefer the colors and contrast of Windows 7 and the previous versions. Instead, Windows 10 TP comes default with funky colors. I don't want a purple desktop. I'm not a 12-year old girl. Reminds me of the Windows XP Fisher Price interface, except that was less annoying, AND you could change it back to windows classic. I'm aware you can change colors, but I've not had good success finding a clean set of colors that have good contrast without hurting the eyes. I don't want to have to spend time coming up with a theme that doesn't look stupid. And maybe I don't care for flat-mode.

    8. Re:MS Paint by snowgirl · · Score: 2

      Most, I hate the Sparta icon... it's white, with no contrast border... which makes everything that is assigned to it being the default program, show a white globe on a white background... it's like, "way to go, Microsoft!" followed by a slow clap.

      "clean" "modern" design... which will never work decently on all backgrounds... you know... like good logos, and designs...

      --
      WARNING! This girl exceeds the MAXIMUM SAFE standards established by the FDA for BRATTINESS
    9. Re:MS Paint by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, exactly. They want the same UI everywhere, from a phone to a 4K display. Which is stupid, but exactly their stated plan.

      If it seems uninspired to you well, that was not part of the plan.

      Adding shadows and other indicators becomes tricky when scaling, given different potential backgrounds and contexts, so they went to the lowest common denominator. Obviously Google and Microsoft chose different paths, but yes exactly planning for a unified interfac is what caused Microsoft to fuck things up starting with Windows 8 and aalmost anything 2012 or later.

    10. Re:MS Paint by Tailhook · · Score: 5, Insightful

      art blogs

      Uh huh.

      Art blogs.

      Pretty much do exactly the opposite of anything advocated on art blogs and you're going the right direction.

      Google ... started

      The latest Android has icons are so abstract they are effectively meaningless. The clock looks like a pie chart; they can't even suffer the hour tick marks that might assist in conveying "clock." The "text" app is a huge left double quote — so out-of-context that it has no association with the concept of "communication." The Google Drive icon is a three color triangle that bears zero resemblance to any sort of storage concept. Basically you must read the label of every icon and slowly try to associate these pictorial abstractions to their actual purpose. In reality users are just memorizing the locations of these meaningless icons, and if you were to rearrange their locations they'd be totally lost.

      It sucks. It's stupid. And I'm 100% certain there is a cabal of "art" fucks behind it.

      Think of Stop signs

      No. Don't think of Stop signs. Stop signs aren't trying to convey an association to anything. You can't buy and eat a box of "stops." Many, many road signs use useful pictographs to convey things; a vehicle skidding due to ice; immigrants hand-in-hand running across a road, the silhouette of a bounding buck.... GUI icons need to convey association; storage, trash, communication, people, news, dates and times, etc.

      Trying to boil all these things down to abstract vector art is idiot.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    11. Re:MS Paint by rasmusbr · · Score: 2

      Microsoft's Metro interface design predates Google's Holo interface design by several years. Holo was probably greatly inspired by Metro.

      With that said I don't think you can blame flat user interfaces on any one particular company. It's just a fad. Microsoft's flat UI looked ugly when Microsoft unleashed it back in the 00's. Give it five more years and it will look ugly again, ugly and dated.

    12. Re:MS Paint by nmb3000 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What you describe is skuemorphic design which objects mimic real world objects which is the old way of doing things.

      Yes and no, I think. I don't think icons generally get classified as skeuomorphic since they just represent targets or classes of entities. Another poster mentioned the Android clock icon -- I don't think the Windows 7 date/time icon was made to resemble another material or object -- it's just a pictogram that clearly presents the idea of a calendar or clock. Compare that to the Android clock icon. I suppose that sort of looks like a clock if you already knew what it was, but it's certainly not clear. In my view that icon has failed at expressing any clear idea and is therefor a failure. Which one do you think a new user would more quickly identify as the way to bring up a date/time widget?

      Compare this to one of Apple's absurd interfaces. This day calendar program is clearly trying to emulate a physical day calendar, complete with leather stitching and yellow lined legal paper. This is what the current trend has pushed back against, and that's probably not entirely a bad thing. You can take emulation like this too far, and Apple almost certainly did with their suite of apps.

      But I don't think the current "UX" trend has as much to do with a severe over-correction to skeuomorphs as it has to do with flat, near monochromatic designs being a lot simpler to scale and make look uniform on a wide variety of screen sizes and pixel densities (as others said). It might be easy but it looks like shit and is about as usable.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    13. Re:MS Paint by nmb3000 · · Score: 1

      You can't buy and eat a box of "stops."

      Ha ha, loved that.

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    14. Re:MS Paint by Shados · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The design and usability field in general is going to hell. Once upon a time, people actually sat down, did usability studies, thought about how humans deal with computers, how our eyes, ears, and hands work.

      There was strong science behind some of these user interfaces, how the icons were shaped, how things were worded... It wasn't perfect mind you, but people tried.

      Today, so called "usability specialists" are generally only interested in how shiny and pretty things look. It sucks.

    15. Re: MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hotdog stand FTW

    16. Re:MS Paint by trparky · · Score: 1

      Secure? *chuckle*

      Are you trying to make me laugh? Because you're doing a good job of it. Microsoft and Security hasn't gone together in... ever. Windows has more security holes in it than Swiss cheese has holes. It's only been used by the masses because they had a stranglehold on the market because of their PC monopoly.

      But things are changing and not for the best in the land of Microsoft. Microsoft is quickly losing relevance in today's post-PC market in which people no longer want PCs, they want a shiny tablet which more than likely will have an Apple logo on the back. Face it, Microsoft is dying and they know it. Proof is in the fact that Microsoft is putting Android and iPhone first for apps like Office, OneNote, Skype, Outlook, OneDrive, etc. They aren’t making these apps for other platforms just for the sake of making them available, they are making them available because they need to or they’re dead.

    17. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's only one adequate representation of time, and that was taken by an NTP client years ago: http://www.mingham-smith.com/tardis.htm

    18. Re:MS Paint by raind · · Score: 1

      They can be changed by the user yes? It would suck that you would have to though.

      --
      Get up!
    19. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      immigrants hand-in-hand running across a road?

      Is there such a traffic signal?, how do you know they are immigrants, painting the signal brownish or with a darker shade of white?

    20. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holo is the old style. KitKat is where Google ripped-off Microsoft's flat look. Apple also ripped off this design for the new Mac OS and iOS.

    21. Re:MS Paint by darkain · · Score: 1

      A good read (something Microsoft should study)

      The section "The Start Button: Up and Running in Seconds" is something in particular that is really important that just isn't explored in modern UX/UI design, sadly.

      http://oyvind.servehttp.com/wi...

    22. Re:MS Paint by deviated_prevert · · Score: 1

      Perhaps normal people and businesses in general just want to get shit done... But it seems like the hipsters always end up running the show. Somehow companies like Microsoft see that as innovation. After all, trying to enforce Metro on 8 was pretty much a hipster move. Not very good for usability or familiarity in my experience. Then masses of people trying to get shit done had to inform the hipsters at Microsoft that this was a really dumb idea. It's different so it must be good!!!!!!!

      Honestly I don't care much about the icons though. Metro was much more annoying. My problem is I don't really know of a good way to change to a different theme for windows. I prefer the colors and contrast of Windows 7 and the previous versions. Instead, Windows 10 TP comes default with funky colors. I don't want a purple desktop. I'm not a 12-year old girl. Reminds me of the Windows XP Fisher Price interface, except that was less annoying, AND you could change it back to windows classic. I'm aware you can change colors, but I've not had good success finding a clean set of colors that have good contrast without hurting the eyes. I don't want to have to spend time coming up with a theme that doesn't look stupid. And maybe I don't care for flat-mode.

      Get yourself a wheel with the complimentary colours and pick the drab shades in compliments to the highlighted edges. What happens is the eye does not strain to compensate for the differentiation of the compliments. Instead your eye focuses on the field faster and there is a less jarring effect. This is essentially design eye pablem technique instead of jarring candy effects and is how designers manage to keep their interior designs from annoying prospective customers with jarring visuals.

      That was the problem with the red jabbing designs of Win8. When you snap back to the start screen tiles your brain just goes "WTF are you doing?" with this sudden flash of a square box full of sudden choices that I must now consider. It jarred the shit out of users and slowed them down to say the least. At least Windows ten has changed that pile of bullshit. It is actually quite easy to use without having to be so called intuitive by poking you in the eye with the choices you have to make. Cortana search works to an extent for those who do not have a clue. Voice command makes the OS usable for the visually impaired but is not an essential part of the GUI. They are listening to users this time around and are creating an OS that is user friendly enough with all the essential stuff still there for the user that knows how to do things like use and create active directories, format remote volumes, manage data connections etc.

      Microsoft is late to the party listening to the core user base but it does seem as if a dose of laxative was give to the stagnant design teams and there was a major shake up in the BSOD Microsmerf yes man culture that prevented innovation at Microsoft during the Ballmer era.

      --
      This message was not sent from an iPhone because Peter Sellers really was a deviated prevert without a dime for the call
    23. Re:MS Paint by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Adding shadows and other indicators becomes tricky when scaling, given different potential backgrounds and contexts, so they went to the lowest common denominator.

      How so? Gradients, shadows, and overlapping objects easily scale. Gradients are just a simple single or multi-variable algebraic equation which looks the same at any scale. Shadows are just creating a penumbra, which is done with a simple unsharp formula, which is less than trivial for modern CPUs to calculate in real-time. Overlapping objects is simple clipping.

      Even doing these at an absurdly high resolution, such as 16k, is rather simple. And there's no need whatsoever to customize them on a per-DPI basis.

    24. Re:MS Paint by DocHoncho · · Score: 2

      Today, so called "usability specialists" are generally only interested in how shiny and pretty things look. It sucks.

      Haven't you heard? Shiny is out, flat is in. Shiny is so old school ugly skeuomorphism bro. The new flatness is like, clean and modern. Like some wise old designer dude said, "A design is good once you've taken everything away; it's perfect." So true man, like less is more and stuff!

      --
      Celebrity worship is a poor substitute for Deity worship and costs more to boot.
    25. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The signs are well known.

      http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/mexico/20050410-9999-1n10signs.html

    26. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm no apple fanboy (don't own anything apple), but My God, that Calendar program on iPad looks really really cool. That design works really beautifully and conveys the different icons and areas really well!

      What the hell happened to design, why did it go so badly wrong so quickly in this advanced era of computing and 3d rendering?!
      The entire flat-ui / metrial design crap is ruining ease-of-use and simplicity!!

    27. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hear, hear. I'm sick of 'flat' design too. The "UX" idiots wouldn't know a good user interface if it bit them in the bum. What was wrong with the Windows 7 icons? Why change things that don't need changing?

    28. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you can't resize Windows 7 icons? Try again. They are made with vectors, and could easily be resized to ANY size on any device, if Microsoft wanted to set up that functionality (i.e. provide the original vector information with the icons, then the OS just generates bitmaps from them at the required size, ONCE, when you first install Windows on that device. It isn't rocket science.)

      The new 'flat' icons exist because designers are generally assholes with no talent, who blindly follow OTHER designers, hence we have 'trends', because the majority of designers are talentless and can only COPY others.

    29. Re:MS Paint by stooo · · Score: 1

      >> normal people and business just want to get shit done

      People who "just want to get shit done" use linux these days.

      while(true);do shit; done

      --
      aaaaaaa
    30. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The funny thing about the Google icon is it could look like a clock if they made the face one solid colour and shortened the hands a bit, maybe even removing the seconds hand.

    31. Re:MS Paint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you like superficial bling in your OS, at the expense of performance and productivity. I like mine to be simple, fast and stay out of my way.

      Besides, you do know you can theme Windows any way that you want, right? So why are you whining?

    32. Re:MS Paint by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Compare this to one of Apple's absurd interfaces. This day calendar program is clearly trying to emulate a physical day calendar, complete with leather stitching and yellow lined legal paper.

      Regardless of what is "cool" or not, it is usable.

      My questions is: Why is there only ONE TRUE WAY?

      I mean, even if they offer a default which demonstrates their ONE TRUE WAY, why can't they have other themes... or allow us to build our own themes? It would be nice to be in control of our interfaces instead of having someone else decide that we need to use the ONE TRUE WAY. *sigh*

      I am used to being disrespected by programmers and the people who manage them. Let it continue while I seethe quietly in the background.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    33. Re:MS Paint by Life2Death · · Score: 1

      Dude, I think we should get married. Your thoughts on here are part of what I came here to say. Its not just the icons, its the whole OS that is like this. They used to give a shit about the experience, now they dont.

  12. The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Win ME was awful. Win XP was generally considered serviceable. Vista was a disaster, even had to Microsoft execs complaining about it in public. Win 7 was OK (although no XP). Win 8 is, well, Win 8. The trend was becoming apparent and people expected Win 9 to be acceptable again. So Microsoft decided to skip Win 9 and jump to Win 10 and have a back-to-back disaster with Win 8.

    1. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wonder if this is another way of saying that Microsoft rushes out one OS to market, way before its ready. Then releases the next OS with these issues resolved (costing the client to spend more money to upgrade to something that works) . The next OS is rushed again too quickly. Requiring the client to pay out again for the next OS that works just. Add infinitum.

    2. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Win 7 was really Vista SP1. I'm amazed that so many "tech" people are fooled by a changed standard configuration, some band-aid services and few fixes.

    3. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by BenJeremy · · Score: 1

      Vista was a disaster, but Win7 is basically Vista matured.

      The reason Vista was a "bad" release had more to do with loopholes being plugged up (API calls that didn't care about missing security data structures suddenly needed them for example) and session separation breaking some apps that relied on multiple processes. The new signed driver architecture also made Vista seem horrible... but the same driver architecture worked fine with Windows 7, because by that time, manufacturers had caught up and were releasing pretty seamless 32- and 64-bit signed drivers.

      Some of Vista's "lumpiness" was also the result of answering critics' complaints about security in the OS. Again, Win7 didn't change much.

      Win8, on the other hand....

    4. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Shados · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of Vista's issues came from 3 fronts:

      1) Shitty hardware that never should have been sold with Vista

      2) the videocard drivers (there's stats about how nearly a majority of crashes and instability issues came from early Nvidia drivers)

      3) OEMs trying to quickly patch up/upgrade XP machines to Vista, but not doing it properly. For example, Dell would sell boxes with a ton of incompatible software and Vista slapped on top. That was a nightmare. ie: machines sold with versions of Nero that hosed Vista. You just had to upgrade it and things went fine, as the compatible version had been released months before. Why did the OEM bundle the old version? Who knows!

      If you built your own machine, installed the OS yourself, and used video and sound drivers that actually worked (which was hard in the first few weeks/months), it worked perfectly fine. Since thats not how most people got Vista though...it just crapped out in everyone's face.

    5. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yip. Vista was good on new hardware that met the requirements. It was still a big slow and sluggish compared to XP, but not 'bad'.

      Part of the problem is that Microsoft wanted to make the minimum RAM requirement 1GB, but all of the OEMs squealed because they couldn't make PCs with those specs at a profitable price point. So Microsoft came up with the "vista ready" badge, where the specs were to meet the OEMs price points but the PCs didn't actually perform acceptably.

      In hindsight, the OEMs probably screwed themselves out of more money than if they'd just marketed that Vista was a 'premium product' and so the base PCs that supported it were simply more expense than the legacy XP ones. Instead, they gave Vista a terrible reputation, which likely depressed PC sales for the next several quarters.

    6. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you're just trying to be funny, but the real reason they skipped Windows 9 is due to the number of shitty programs out there (including Oracle Java) that do Windows version checking by looking at the display name of the operating system instead of the Major.Minor.Revision.Build numbers: they would consider "Windows 9" to be in the same family as "Windows 95" and "Windows 98" and do even more braindead things than they usually do.

    7. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Part of the problem is that Microsoft wanted to make the minimum RAM requirement 1GB, but all of the OEMs squealed because they couldn't make PCs with those specs at a profitable price point.

      Part of the problem is that Vista is a turd even if you have 2GB, while Windows 7 runs just fine on 1GB and great on 2GB. They really boned Vista badly, and they never fixed it. Even fully service-packed, performance is poor compared to Windows 7.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vast majority of Vista's issues came from 3 fronts:

      1) Shitty hardware that never should have been sold with Vista

      2) the videocard drivers (there's stats about how nearly a majority of crashes and instability issues came from early Nvidia drivers)

      3) OEMs trying to quickly patch up/upgrade XP machines to Vista, but not doing it properly. For example, Dell would sell boxes with a ton of incompatible software and Vista slapped on top. That was a nightmare. ie: machines sold with versions of Nero that hosed Vista. You just had to upgrade it and things went fine, as the compatible version had been released months before. Why did the OEM bundle the old version? Who knows!

      If you built your own machine, installed the OS yourself, and used video and sound drivers that actually worked (which was hard in the first few weeks/months), it worked perfectly fine. Since thats not how most people got Vista though...it just crapped out in everyone's face.

      Pretty much agreed, although performance wasn't really all that great until SP2, but on adequate hardware, it did perform decently if not well. Also don't forget all those shitty printer drivers. Many SHIPPING printers were still using drivers using the Win95-era spec, even though a new type (called "Type 3") was established with the release of Windows 2000 (you read that right, Win2K). The Win95-era spec was kept around, though officially deprecated, for compatibility's sake through XP (even though it had stability and security issues), but was finally jettisoned in Vista. And thousands of cheap $20 inkjets no longer worked, and everybody blamed Microsoft.

      I hate on Microsoft as much as the next guy. But Vista... no, the biggest thing Microsoft got wrong with Vista is they failed to force entirely separate corporate entities to get their shit together via magical mind control means. Windows 7 really wasn't much different at all from Windows Vista with a decent default configuration, stable drivers, and a few years worth of old crappy hardware replaced with shiny new hardware in the intervening time.

    9. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got Vista pre-installed on a Gateway, the first OEM computer I ever purchased, the others I built myself. I had no real problems with it except for a corrupted display after a suspend/resume, but more recent drivers fixed that. I also had no trouble with Windows ME on 4 different machines, though I took the extra steps of disabling system restore, Windows management, and a few other extras. I actually found Windows ME to be much more reliable than 98, which had a tendency to boot with drivers that have mysterious gone missing. I still haven't found a single person that could tell me exactly what problem they had with Windows ME that was actually related to the OS. They just parrot what everyone else said about it. I think the biggest problem with Microsoft Operating Systems is people. They are really clueless. The average user still doesn't understand the concept of a shortcut, how to make one or how it relates to the original file. In China, where I've lived the past 5 years, people have a habit of right clicking on the desktop and selecting "refresh" before doing anything. Sometimes more than once. They believe it makes the computer faster or prevents problems. It's really sad.

    10. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the "good" versions of windows (xp, 7) were only "good" because they weren't horrendously offensive. They didn't impress anyone. They didn't stem the bleeding to Mac. At least since XP nobody lined up outside shops to buy them. They didn't rush to get a new computer.

    11. Re:The real reason they skipped Win 9 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL @ the "bleeding to Mac". Macintosh has what, 4% of the market?

      Yeah, that sure is a lot of bleeding, leaving Windows with a paltry 90%+ of the market.

  13. Fewer, not less by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fewer icons. Not less.

  14. Make me nostalgic by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 1

    For the Atari ST.

    You're just not hipster enough for it.

    1. Re:Make me nostalgic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Amiga was better

  15. Just port the lastes DX to Windows 7 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and be done with it... or better yet, XP.
    Listen to your actual customers and not some tween "target group".

  16. Not even mildly interested... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It won't co-install on hardware that runs Linux.
    Micro-soft should just continue to support XP.
      'nuf said.

  17. Win10 is far from ready by rwwyatt · · Score: 1

    Most of the SSLVPN software still doesn't work. Cisco AnyConnect SSL, JunOS Pulse, Dell Mobile Connect. There are problems with the functions key on certain units. Windows 10 is as about as usable as Windows 8 at the beginning. A test period should include support for critical applications such as VPN software.

    1. Re:Win10 is far from ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter, the NSA backdoors work fine tho!

    2. Re:Win10 is far from ready by Shados · · Score: 1

      To be fair, all of those VPN softwares are pieces of shit and barely work in a perfect setup.

    3. Re:Win10 is far from ready by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, all of those VPN softwares are pieces of shit and barely work in a perfect setup.

      Totally agree. Why the fuck would any enterprise serious about security accept Cisco replacing the operating system's built-in Gina authenticator? That puts them in a man-in-the-middle position to sniff all user authentications and authorizations, not just those needed for VPN access.

  18. Make it the same, just add driver support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Update DX, update device drivers, fix security issues, and maybe optimize here and there. Stop trying to create a new desktop paradigm, or some kind of kiosk mode where the PC is there as a way to load apps onto your tablet.

    Give me a desktop that works and get out of my way. Hi, PC-BSD.

  19. Yep, riding Win7 until EOL in 2020 by Irate+Engineer · · Score: 2

    Windows 7 EOLs in 2020. I really hope MS gets their head out of their ass by then and makes a sensible release that doesn't make the user base miserable. We just want the stable productivity back we had on XP/7 please. A lot of us are still working on desktops (and will be in 2020) and, guess what, it is work that we can't do on smartphones.

    --

    Left MS Windows for Linux Mint and never looked back!

    Vote for Bernie in 2016!

  20. How do I XP it ? by dargaud · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Genuine question here: I've been using Linux for most things for the past 15 years. For exactly 3 programs I still need Windows, so I run XP in a virtual machine. But I've been warned that the next versions of my progs won't support XP anymore, so I'll have to jump to Win10. Since I don't give a shit about any of the 'advancements' that have occured since then, how can I remove all the gimmicks and simplify the Windows user interface to make it like XP, simply ? Is there some Win10 to XP converter to keep me from trudging through endless options and shitty tweaking downloads ?

    --
    Non-Linux Penguins ?
    1. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My agency does not use win8, but we sometimes must provide support for it. Classic Shell is the savior. It allows you to forget Metro and use the OS.

      Hopefully if needed, Classic Shell will also be an option for win10.

    2. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows XP? Fuck you. Newer versions of Windows have task bar pinning and grouping, window snapping, auto selecting everything but the extension on file renames, WDM, and more and more. Grow a pair of balls and a brain, grandpa. Only stupid motherfuckers who've never known better STILL prefer XP.

    3. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      jump to windows 7, not 10.

    4. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Genuine question here: I've been using Linux for most things for the past 15 years. For exactly 3 programs I still need Windows, so I run XP in a virtual machine. But I've been warned that the next versions of my progs won't support XP anymore, so I'll have to jump to Win10. Since I don't give a shit about any of the 'advancements' that have occured since then, how can I remove all the gimmicks and simplify the Windows user interface to make it like XP, simply ? Is there some Win10 to XP converter to keep me from trudging through endless options and shitty tweaking downloads ?

      Honestly, don't. If you've been running XP all this time, the most consistent move you could make is to jump to Win7. Win7 isn't exactly XP, but it's decently easy to make it simple. And it's so insanely popular (so close to its end of life, and still Microsoft's #1 operating system) that programs will support it for a very long time, well past its end of life.

      I know you've probably been reading that Win10 undoes every insane design decision that went into Win8, but, to be honest, it doesn't. It undoes the most insane ones, sure, and I can see a path forward to a day when using Windows will maybe within a few years stop being a complete pain in my ass, but it's not there yet. You are obviously too conservative to live on the bleeding edge, so don't. Just jump to Win7 and camp there for a few more years while the dust settles around 10.

    5. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you neeed it for 3 programs, I do not understand why you care much for the Windows GUI itself at all.

      Install th eapps, pin them to the taskbar (that was a new feature in Vista, but look it up, it is really nce), and you need not use much of the Windows GUI ever again.

    6. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err, first of all, calm down retard.

      I'm an web-app developer, and I have a laptop with Win8.1 and work desktop with Win7, and home pc with WinXP - and I STILL prefer XP by FAR!

      Win7 ruined the interface in too many places, including Windows Explorer and countless issues like horizontal scrolling, etc. Basically Win7 and especially Win8 have taken away many of the customisation options that many people used to personalise their working space. Not to mention that Win7 requires about a gig of RAM just for caching or what-ever, and WinXP only requires about 300mb!
      Oh and countless benchmarks show that XP performs better in gaming benchmarks and also uses less power and is battery-efficient on laptops as compared to Win7 (even with its advanced power options).

      Even my wife and parents still prefer WinXP even though they've been forced to upgrade to Win7.

    7. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you switch to Win7, just remember to disable many of the useless services, because that thing is a beast which uses almost a gig of ram on default install! (Compared to 300mb for XP).

      Also, install "Classic Shell" which will fix many of the ui disasters in Win7 and allow you to customise the ui to a certain degree better.

    8. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, run Win7.. It EOL's in 2020, you'll have 5 years for MS to call their proctologist to remove their head.

    9. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any "tweaks" you apply to it to make it work like XP are going to break any programs that won't work with XP anymore, so my advice is to just suck it up and use it the way it was built.

      I swear, you people are just fucking lazy. It's a tiny (in the grand scheme of things) adjustment to a UI. Learn. If you don't use your brain, you're a waste of my oxygen and you need to die off quickly.

    10. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, a whole gig of memory! That is sooooooooo much.

    11. Re:How do I XP it ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, no shit. I mean a whole gig of RAM must cost something exorbitant like $10. I need that money to buy lunch at McDonald's today or maybe a six-pack of high-grade beer like Pabst!

  21. Wi-Fi and audio not working? by ericloewe · · Score: 1

    Sounds like they're damned near ready to release Windows 10.

    My Surface Pro 3 (so not random OEM PoS) often needs a reboot because its sensors crapped out when the thing woke up from sleep. Wi-Fi is a semi-stable solution that could use some serious polishing. The keyboard frequently gets a key logically stuck, which isn't fixable without a reboot and precludes any productivity (try doing *anything* with CTRL held down and you'll see what I mean).

    In all seriousness, I hope they decide to polish first, release later for a change

  22. Oh boy... by plazman30 · · Score: 1

    My company has decided to skip Windows 8.x and go to Windows 10, but they want to start testing and rolling out a few months after the RTM lands. If it's still not pretty solid my life is going to become miserable.

    1. Re:Oh boy... by unixisc · · Score: 2

      Most companies I think would have done that. I haven't seen a single company that's moved to Windows 8.x.

    2. Re:Oh boy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is not pretty solid, they will not roll it out until the problems are fixed. Why would they roll out something creating lots of extra work for themselves?

    3. Re:Oh boy... by plazman30 · · Score: 1

      If they deployed Surface Pros, then they went to Windows 8. We have a lot of people at work that WANT Surface Pros instead of laptops, but instead we give them a Yoga 2, with Windows 7, which is an awful experience.

  23. how about some past bugs fixed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have reported the same bug for win 7 win 8 win 8.1 and it is still not fixed in the preview. Many others have also reported it. Yet no fix is forthcoming.

    If you have an mp3 with TXXX tag media player will corrupt it.

  24. PC-BSD support by unixisc · · Score: 1

    I've had some issues upgrading to PC-BSD 10.1.2, but the setup I have currently is fine. Just that I want to update some of my packages, but that comes as a part of the complete system upgrade. Not too enthusiastic about doing a pbi something on the CLI

  25. the next question is, is ready for prime time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is is it?

    Slashdot, where editors go to drink coffee and surf the web.

  26. Windows legacy 'baggage'? by unixisc · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But one can argue that Microsoft does not fully support legacy software. For instance, I have an Adobe Acrobat 6.x that I had bought. It worked fine under XP, but never even installed under Windows 7. The argument is that one has to upgrade to Acrobat 7 or later, but why would one pay new cash for a software that they've already bought, and which works? Just b'cos the new version of the OS no longer can support it?

    Those arguments aside, if Microsoft doesn't support all past software, why is it throwing the kitchen sink at legacy support? In Windows 7, they already had the right idea - Virtual PC and XP Mode. Just extend that here in Windows 10. I never saw the reason for Windows 10 to have a 32 bit version at all. There are a lot of old computers that just won't go to Windows 10 - maybe because their motherboards can't have more than 512MB of memory, maybe because their outdated peripherals manufacturers only maintain but no longer support them, etc. So Microsoft could have made Windows 10 a 64-bit only OS, and then installed on it Virtual PC, w/ free VMs for 8, 7, Vista, XP, 2000, ME, NT 4.0 and 3.5. That way, people w/ legacy needs can be supported in software, while the main OS itself would allow MS to innovate more. And somewhere down the road, they could even include a Windows 10 VM in the package.

    Speaking about 32-bit Windows 10, my Winbook has 2GB of RAM and 32GB of flash storage (C:\), and doesn't come in a configuration w/ 64GB. Having a 64-bit only version would have made them support a 64-bit OS, and at the same time, avoid having any upgrade/support issues. Put the minimum requirement at 4GB of RAM, and make the basic OS recognize up to 64TB, so that manufacturers don't put stupid low limits like 32GB. That way, there would also be no question of the OS being able to upgrade from 8.x to 10. I've seen some Winbooks w/ 1GB of RAM and 16GB of storage: those will NOT be upgradable to 10. So why have them, particularly when 8 sucks?

    1. Re:Windows legacy 'baggage'? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      The only reason that the 32 bit version exists is so that people have an upgrade path for their existing XP/Vista/7/8 32 bit installation. You can't upgrade from 32 bit to 64 bit, it has to be a re-install.

      I wish they had decided to just ditch x86 as well, but at least all new machines are shipping with x64 now.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Windows legacy 'baggage'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But one can argue that Microsoft does not fully support legacy software. For instance, I have an Adobe Acrobat 6.x that I had bought. It worked fine under XP, but never even installed under Windows 7. The argument is that one has to upgrade to Acrobat 7 or later, but why would one pay new cash for a software that they've already bought, and which works? Just b'cos the new version of the OS no longer can support it?

      Which is more likely the fault of Adobe than anyone else. Microsoft made a fairly clean break with XP in regards to preventing programs doing dumb things that they should never had been allowed to do in the first place (put DLLs in windows folders, prevented programs from writing to sensitive locations etc).
      There were a ton of programs that did this and worked fine on XP but broke on Vista and later. This was the correct decision to make tho.

    3. Re:Windows legacy 'baggage'? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are still a lot of Atom processors out there that are 32 bit only. Especially in the low end tablet segment. Microsoft isn't willing to give up on them just yet.

    4. Re:Windows legacy 'baggage'? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Not to mention for some reason Intel won't release 64 bit Windows drivers for a lot of the graphics chipsets that come with the Atoms. So you have to run 32 bit Windows. Or Linux.

  27. Linux marketshare by unixisc · · Score: 1

    I expect the Linux numbers to go down, thanks to the outcry over systemd. Don't be surprised to see FreeBSD/PC-BSD conquer a lot of this market.

  28. Rush at your own peril by vilanye · · Score: 1

    Two failed OS's in a row will not be bode well for their current stock price or their future existence*.

    They really need to go back to their core business and leave consumer devices to those with a slightly greater clue.

    MS should have sold Azure instead of waste time with Windows 8, Windows Phone, etc.

    "Azure in a box" would be a huge hit in the enterprise, ya know MS's actual business.

    The only benefit of not selling it is that it helped force MS to open source a few things to get help porting it to Linux since ~20% of Azure customers are running Linux on it.

    I am still amazing to me that some businesses are willing to give up some control of their data to a untrustworthy third-party(not just Azure, but any "cloud" provider) to save a few bucks on IT.

    *MS won't die obviously, but they are in danger of turning into IBM. Big, slow, bloated and pretty much irrelevant outside certain niches.

  29. New Egg Nonsense. by westlake · · Score: 1

    if the rumors are true, they're planning to make up for all those free upgrades with a hefty OEM price for new computers (isn't it nice to be able to extract Monopoly rates when you need it). $109 OEM for the home version, $149 for Pro

    To the uninitiated:

    The New Egg retail price for single copies of Windows 10 in OEM packaging for the "system builder" isn't the dirt cheap wholesale price paid by Dell, HP or Lenovo for the mass-market OEM Windows system install.

  30. I don't care what they say... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's still Windows 9. The thin-as-gruel excuse that computers would confuse it with Windows 95 or 98 or 98 SE is just that, an EXCUSE. They could have called it "Windows Nine" and avoided any possible confusion. Also, internally, within the software, it's got a version number that's independent of the number associated with it for marketing purposes, Windows 95 was actually Windows 4, (FOUR) etc. They just want to catch up to real operating systems that have higher numbers, like OS X 10 that is nearing 11 already, or any of the Linux distros, many popular ones of which are in the teens.

    That's why they're so desperate with the "Surface", and "Windows "Phone"", hahahah... they know as more people do more computing tasks using Unix/Unix-Like OS devices, (like Android, (based upon and wrapped around a Linux kernel,) or on iOS, (which is underpinned by similar architecture as OS X, specifically, BSD) even if they have pretty, fancy interfaces over them, they're all leaving Windows behind, as are their users, formerly trapped in a recurring nightmare from which they could not CTRL-ALT-DEL... WITHOUT THEM. :-)

    They want people to ignore the fact that Windows was only ever a compromise slapped over the top of an inferior OS, (DOS) that was a rip-off of CP/M which was itself a slimmed-down, handicapped, even retarded implementation of UNIX, that was only ever necessitated because the IBM PC was too slow, too small, too weak, and too generally sad and pathetic to have a prayer of running a real computer OS like UNIX, (which is what all the big-boy computers were running,) when it came out. Now that even a CELLPHONE is powerful enough to run Unix, or a Unix-like or Unix-descended operating system, we simply don't NEED Windows anymore, and most people old enough to have enough money to sink into something like an expensive system, are also old enough to remember the nightmare, or are smart enough to have learned from those of us who have gone before.

    ABORT, RETRY, IGNORE, FAIL?

    Fail, Microsoft. Fail.

    I can't wait to read about how this (whichever it is,) will be the last version of Microsoft Windows. I think two or three more at the outside, unless they start shooting them out like Firefox updates, and that will be it. What a joyous day it will be.

    Things could have been different. NT could have been a Unix, they could have opened things up, but noooo-oo-ooo-ooo-oo...

    Some people think computer users don't want to be freed from the hegemony of Microsoft. I think they're too tired, but as they die, or migrate away, they won't be replaced like during the boom-times when Microsoft had the power to hold a monopoly. Now their power is waning, manufacturers of computers and components aren't making locked-down-hardware only in terror that Microsoft will consign them to ash-heaps for supporting or shipping other OS's. Apple and all the Android computer manufacturers are encroaching on Microsoft's turf, as are a few GNU/Linux PC makers, and all together, one glorious day, sometime soon, they will eat Microsoft's lunch, then feast on their corpse.

    Bon Appetite!

  31. Re:epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Pikoro · · Score: 1

    APK, will you just give it a rest already. Nobody's going to install your shitty software. The world has moved on. You've already been debated point by point on why your system is worse and you couldn't refute any of the rebuttals made without it sounding like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting "la la la".

    Give it up already.

    --
    "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
  32. Re:epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just edited my hosts file to block him.

  33. Are you sure? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just got a thing on my Windows 7 desktop systray telling me I could download the 3gb installer right now. Looking at twitter, it looks like tons of others have just gotten this in the last few hours.

  34. Windows 10 for previewers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have pc without license (Ubuntu and Windows 10 preview only), so I wonder how much I much I am going to pay, if i want to upgrade to full version of W10, when it comes RTM.

  35. Chromebooks - boo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Makes Chromebooks look better and better.

    Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING makes Chromebooks look better. Worthless pieces of shit.

  36. I don't know what any of that shit it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I run windows 7, still don't know what pinning stuff to the taskbar actually does - and frankly I don't give a fuck. I can do everything I want to do and my PC looks like Windows 95.

    And I like it that way. you nigger.

  37. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus.:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  38. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus.:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  39. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus.:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  40. Do you have to activate it in the first year? by necronom426 · · Score: 1

    If I download it in a two months, do I register it then when I download it to get the free upgrade, or do I actually have to activate it on my PC? I doubt I'll want to install it as I've only been using Win 7 for just over a year, but I might want to download it this year and install it at no cost in about 5 years.

  41. Still expensive for a hobby builder by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The whole reason I got Windows 8 was the $37 introductory pricing. I'm surprised it isn't going to have pricing similar to that for Windows 10 at start. Also compared to the entry level hardware you can buy, it can actually cost more than anything else on the machine! A 3Ghz dual core, 4GB RAM, 500GB HD, case, PSU and motherboard for ~$204... +$109 for the OS... WTF!?

  42. Re:King Frosty, First of his Name! by strikethree · · Score: 1

    It is amazing at how consistently these frosty piss postings occur. Even if someone were paid to do this, they would not be as reliable as "Anonymous Coward" at producing these posts.

    After all of these years, I just HAVE to ask: What is the motivation?

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  43. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus.:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  44. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus.:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  45. epyT-R why'd you "Run, Forrest: RUN" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: From http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

    Your "DNS lookup" b.s.?

    1st: Hosts exceed SLOWER remote DNS lookup (Exploit ridden by Kaminsky redirect flaw & 99.999% of ISP DNS != patched vs. it!) - how?

    I avoid DNS putting WHERE I SPEND 95%++ ONLINE TIME @ TOP OF HOSTS via 30 favs!

    2nd: AdBlocking gains speed!

    BOTH exceed remote DNS lag indexed lookup post query/turnaround on resolution (do the math binary search) over 3++ million records w/ a most efficient blocking format = better load + internal parse & no bloat in hosts cached in LOCAL RAM via 2 kernelmode subsystems (diskcache & ip stack = no usermode context switch overhead like Windows' faulty w/ large hosts files usermode dns cache service) vs. remote DNS for utmost in speed, efficiency + reliability (my program keeps hardcodes current) vs. downed DNS too.

    * Hosts = MORE SPEED + EFFICIENCY & ease of maintenance (via http://start64.com/index.php?o...) versus:

    1.) Remote DNS & hosts do so w/ less resource use + added on app complexity/room for breakdown & exploit w/ added CPU & power use w/ a local setup DNS (worse if separate system) + complexity of deny rules vs. hosts simple entries

    + vs.

    2.) "Almost ALL Ads Blocked": Hosts are far more efficient doing more w/ less vs. AdBlock's BLOAT & regex complexity vs. hosts simple entries. Addons add overheads layered over slower browsers in usermode increasing messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode (run some addons concurrently see what I mean). Addons do more added I/O operations + consume more memory & create CPU overuse + complexity (regex vs. hosts entries) bolted-on in SLOW usemode vs. hosts in PURE kernelmode via a high cpu serviced layer of ops by IP stack. Addons = easily detected by native browser methods + clarityray shuts 'em down (hosts aren't).

    APK

    P.S.=> + Hosts != bribed (like AdBlock/ABP NOT DOING THE 1 JOB IT HAD by default)... apk

  46. Prove it Pikoro (you punk)... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You've already been debated point by point on why your system is worse and you couldn't refute any of the rebuttals made" - by Pikoro (844299) on Sunday May 31, 2015 @11:26PM (#49812367) Homepage

    Where? Prove it + prove me wrong here http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    * Good luck stooge - you need a miracle!

    APK

    P.S.=> Funny you can't, eh? No more than you can SHOW & PROVE some fool here on /. has validly technically proved ANY of my points on hosts files wrong, stupid - Go for it (can't be done dumbass & you know it)... apk

  47. Debate this Pikoro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can adblock do 16 things hosts do for speed, security, & reliability:

    1.) Protect vs. malicious sites/servers (beyond malicious ads: See 2-10 next)
    2.) Protect vs. fastflux botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    3.) Protect vs. dynamic dns botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    4.) Protect vs. DGA botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    5.) Protect vs. downed DNS (adds reliability)
    6.) Protect vs. DNS redirect poisoned dns
    7.) Protect vs. trackers
    8.) Protect vs. spam
    9.) Protect vs. phishing
    10.) Protect vs. bandwidth caps
    11.) Get you past a dnsbl
    12.) Keep you off dns request logs
    13.) Speed up websurfing by adblocks & hardcoded fav. sites
    14.) Work on ANY webbound app (think stand-alone email programs) multiplatform.
    15.) Give you easily texteditor controlled data for the above
    16.) Do all that & block ads (better than addons) more efficiently in cpu cycles + memory usage

    * ANSWER ="NO" to each above on AdBlock doing it as well or at all!

    APK

    P.S.=> AdBlock does FAR less than hosts do & FAR less efficiently - hosts do MORE w/ less + Hosts start w/ the IP stack before REDUNDANT inefficient addons BEGIN to operate (as 1st resolver queried):

    AdBlock's SLOWER than hosts: http://superuser.com/questions...

    AdBlock's 4++gb & 100% CPU usage flooring inefficiency -> https://blog.mozilla.org/nneth... + ClarityRay defeats it + it 'souled-out' & is crippled by default paid off to not do its job http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/... & ABP too http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

    AdBlock adds complexity/room for breakdown/exploit + from a slower mode of operations (usermode = more messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode).

    For the BEST hosts file?

    APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-2 32/64-bit -> http://start64.com/index.php?o...

    MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus http://www.av-test.org/en/news...

    ... apk

    1. Re:Debate this Pikoro by Pikoro · · Score: 1

      Referring to this thread where you got put down.

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
  48. Polish for Free ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you know that after learning Polish you are going to be very well prepared to learn Russian which can be very practical even in the US, now you can learn Polish for free on Skype through http://preply.com/en/polish-by-skype

  49. LMAO - I came out on top there! apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: DNS does use more power, moving parts for exploit & breakdown + it adds complexity too (not only in those more moving parts in programs (vs. a single file in hosts), but also in deny rules tables for it vs. hosts' easy internal format) AND remote queries to DNS ARE SLOWER than locally queried hosts files (with your favorites where you spend MOST OF YOUR TIME ONLINE @ the TOP of hosts) in their resolution turn-around time.

    * There's MORE there that make my subject true, but that tiny sampling above will do nicely to make my point there...

    APK

    P.S.=> You fail again as usual, lol... apk