Slashdot Mirror


Fabs Now Manufacturing Carbon Nanotube Memory, Which Could Replace NAND and DRAM

Lucas123 writes: Nantero, the company that invented carbon nanotube-based non-volatile memory in 2001 and has been developing it since, has announced that seven chip fabrication plants are now manufacturing its Nano-RAM (NRAM) wafers and test chips. The company also announced aerospace giant Lockheed Martin and Schlumberger Ltd., the world's largest gas and oil exploration and drilling company, as customers seeking to use its chip technology. The memory, which can withstand 300 degrees Celsius temperatures for years without losing data, is natively thousands of times faster than NAND flash and has virtually infinite read/write resilience. Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs using DDR4 interfaces. NRAM has the potential to create memory that is vastly more dense that NAND flash, as its transistors can shrink to below 5 nanometers in size, three times more dense than today's densest NAND flash. At the same time, NRAM is up against a robust field of new memory technologies that are expected to challenge NAND flash in speed, endurance and capacity, such as Phase-Change Memory and Ferroelectric RAM (FRAM).

67 comments

  1. Reminds me of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    HP Memristor... Is there any connection?

    1. Re:Reminds me of by msobkow · · Score: 1

      Not really. They're manufacturing their devices; all HP ever seems to have done is talk.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    2. Re:Reminds me of by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Well to be fair, according to TFS, this company has done nothing but talk since 2001, almost 15 years now. Now it's finally got something ready for production.

      How long has HP been talking about memristors? I don't think it's been this long.

      I wonder how this (now proven) technology stacks up against (not yet proven) memristors in terms of density and speed.

    3. Re:Reminds me of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did Microsoft name their "Team Foundation Server" after "The Fucking Summary"?

    4. Re:Reminds me of by msobkow · · Score: 1

      The first I heard of memristors was in the mid '80s. I don't recall if it was HP or someone else ballyhooing them, though.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    5. Re:Reminds me of by sillivalley · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ah, before HP did memristors, they also worked on FERAM -- that program continued with Agilent.

      HP/Agilent are quite good at these breakthrough technologies -- do a search for the Champagne Optical Switch -- that was another one that was going to take over the world.

      But they have had some successes -- the FBAR filter/diplexer was (and still is) a big deal, in the news recently as some individuals were arrested for trying to set up an offshore source...

      FERAM (and the phase change stuff) have been the technology of the decade -- for a couple of decades now.

      One of the issues with FERAM is some of the dopants needed are considered contaminants by most folks, which makes it difficult to use someone else's fab... You want to run WHAT through my fab???

    6. Re: Reminds me of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last I'd heard, HP was delaying their launch of memristor-based chips because their fab, Hynix, was concerned it would eat into their existing market. They could have had them on market in 2012-14, but that got pushed back to 2016-2018 because reasons.

    7. Re:Reminds me of by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They didn't. They named it after the "Three Finger Salute" as a tribute to the stability of the software.

    8. Re:Reminds me of by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      The first I heard of memristors was in the mid '80s.

      Memristors were first discovered in 2007, so you did not hear about them in the 1980s, except maybe as a theoretical concept.

    9. Re:Reminds me of by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      that same wikipedia article says that they were "Invented" in 1971 (in the same sense this stuff was invented 2001).

      it's just that 2007 hp announced they had made a "prototype" of sorts using some physical phenomena known since 1960's.

      seriously, I've quite taking hp seriously on the subject already due to them talking like they have a fabrication process in place when they don't.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  2. Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    About this fabulous Carbon based tech that will never go further than lab experiments. Just like every other fancy tech we hear about every year.

    1. Re:Please, tell me more by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Indeed.... either that, or it will be priced so stratospheric that it doesn't have any chance of catching on in the home computer sector.

      It will be news when it's available and affordable.

      Until then, it's not really any better than vaporware.

    2. Re:Please, tell me more by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Until then, it's not really any better than vaporware.

      Just because something's too expensive for cheap-ass home computer users doesn't mean it's "vaporware". There's a lot of other sectors in the computing market that can afford more.

    3. Re:Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This tech already arrived at Earth from another star system according to Ben Rich(CEO of Lockheed Inc)

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    4. Re:Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If we can rapidly adapt the tech to:
      • A) Weapons use
      • B) Porn use

      We should see it widely used in other fields soon thereafter.

    5. Re:Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until then, it's not really any better than vaporware.

      Just because something's too expensive for cheap-ass home computer users doesn't mean it's "vaporware". There's a lot of other sectors in the computing market that can afford more.

      NO, at this stage it really is just vaporware. They are still in design phase, when they say they are fabbing them they are really just developing prototype chips for testing and are still years and years away from production even for the expensive end of the market. It seems likely this will make it to market eventually, but it is by no means guaranteed as they don't have a product yet.

    6. Re:Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The comment is clearly a reference to "available and affordable".
      While this might be vaporware there are plenty of technologies that aren't available and affordable without being vaporware.
      A particle accelerator at the LHC size is neither available not affordable, yet it is clearly not vaporvare.

      A memory that is specified for 300 degrees without memory loss has it's uses for some sectors. If it is guaranteed to work it might be cheaper to build a fab to manufacture a couple of hundred of them than the alternative solutions.
      Think a situation like Fukushima. If there had been components specified for a high radiation environment no-one would have thought twice about spending a couple of millions extra on a robot to get more accurate reading from the reaction. That doesn't mean that the components would be available to you or affordable.

    7. Re:Please, tell me more by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      I am getting tired of all the nano that nano this, it's going to change the world. Been reading about it for fucking years and nothing has come of it. I AM sure it will change things if all the pie in the sky promises come true, but I am still waiting to see it actually hit the market or actually change the world I live in.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    8. Re:Please, tell me more by Muad'Dave · · Score: 1

      Not sure if you include all things 'micro' in your general derision, but MEMS devices have revolutionized some areas of electronics, particularly sensors. I bet you've got a MEMS-based accelerometer in your phone right now, and possibly a MEMS-based programmable oscillator.

      If you have sleep apnea or asthma, your therapy device might contain a MEMS-based flow sensor.

      --
      Tiller's Rule: Never use a word in written form that you've only heard and never read. You will end up looking foolish.
    9. Re:Please, tell me more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think that memory stability is the bottleneck in making hotter porn. Weapons may be the better bet here.

  3. imagine an iphone by alen · · Score: 0

    of those

    terabytes of data in my pocket

    1. Re:imagine an iphone by hitmark · · Score: 0

      Costing just as many dollars...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    2. Re:imagine an iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, 2 dollars for 2 terabytes?
      Sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

    3. Re:imagine an iphone by dixonpete · · Score: 1

      HP was claiming it could put 100 TB of storage on a cell size device.

    4. Re:imagine an iphone by M8e · · Score: 1

      No, 2 TeraDollars.

    5. Re:imagine an iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So when do we get devices at the magnetic theoretical limit of 10,000 gig bits per square inch?

    6. Re:imagine an iphone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, 2 TeraDollars.

      When you're offworld, you can just call them EarthBucks like the rest of us.

    7. Re:imagine an iphone by stigmato · · Score: 1

      Burma-Shave.

  4. Stupid nitpick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Schlumberger isn't an exploration and drilling company, it's an oilfield services company. They don't drill the oil themselves, they sell technology, data and engineering services to people who do.

    1. Re:Stupid nitpick by mlts · · Score: 2

      They also tend to know what they are doing, so this does give some passing credibility to this project.

      I've seen a lot of things come and go, be it Tamarak's holographic storage, InPhase's holo storage, bubble memory, digital paper, optical tape drives, and so on. Since this has actual companies signing on, this appears to be more than just hype.

      Time will tell though. Lots of innovations have been announced and discussed, and lots have wound up long forgotten.

    2. Re:Stupid nitpick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schlumberger is interested in using the devices, that says nothing about if the device exists or actually works.

      And don't assume that one guy that works at Schlumberger indicating interest in something as significant. *ANY* company would be interested in using the described devices if they work and are reasonably priced.

    3. Re:Stupid nitpick by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Schlumberger is interested in using the devices, that says nothing about if the device exists or actually works.

      Schlumberger is primarily interested because of the high temperature capabilities for "down hole" applications, where it can get hotter than an oven. That is a niche market that conventional devices don't address.

    4. Re:Stupid nitpick by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      You have to be careful though because I've seen a lot of companies over the years say "Giant Corporation X is testing our product." And what that means is that someone at Giant Corporation X said "yes I'll take a sample and evaluate it." That doesn't mean they are investing any serious resources in integrating it into their roadmap. I've even seen it used when all they had was an informal meeting over drinks only to have a press release pop up "Company Y working with us!"

    5. Re:Stupid nitpick by boristdog · · Score: 1

      Schlumberger has a bunch of divisions, they aren't just oilfield. A friend of mine works in their IT support division, he's contracted to do IT security for a hospital.

  5. RIP MRAM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    MRAM we hardle knew ye besides in chips of a few megabytes' size.

  6. fast R&D by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    " has been tested at 300 degrees Celsius for 10 years." geez... was this really necessary? Couldnt they just make it and ship it in real products instead?

    1. Re:fast R&D by narcc · · Score: 1

      It would have taken less time, but the engineers kept bursting into flames...

  7. Don't forget HP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't forget HP is also in the game and betting big on it's flawed Memristor technology.

    1. Re:Don't forget HP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HP is betting big on it is memristor technology?

  8. Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 5, Informative

    The summary says "Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs using DDR4 interfaces."

    TFA says:

    Nantero doesn't plan on producing its own NRAM drives, which will initially be marketed for purposes similar to solid-state drive (SSD) gum sticks or internal memory boards. But it will license its intellectual property to companies to develop their own product. Nantero's engineers are still in the process of creating chip designs for the memory wafers.

    (emphasis mine), which is, err, umm, the exact opposite of "Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs" (or even "Nantero plans on creating gum stick SSDs").

    As for what's being fabbed:

    "So those fabs have been and are indeed producing large numbers of wafers and chips," said Greg Schmergel, CEO of Nantero. "They are sample chips/test chips in preparation for mass production, which requires the product designs to be completed."

    Schmergel said it will likely take a couple more years before NRAM drives begin rolling off production lines.

    so, whilst this is better than "we've constructed a 4-bit chip in the lab and, yes, it does reliably store 4 bits of data", let's wait a couple of years before we get too excited.

    1. Re:Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Funny

      let's wait a couple of years before we get too excited.

      I am in a constant state of over-excitement. This story doesn't even move the needle.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    2. Re:Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs? by Metabolife · · Score: 1

      I'm excited already. 2015 is the year of NRAM, OLED monitors, Linux desktops, and BTTF hoverboards.

    3. Re:Nantero plans on creating gum sticks SSDs? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      I am in a constant state of over-excitement.

      Contact your doctor if you have a "state of over-excitement" that lasts longer than four hours.

  9. Thank goodness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Personally I can't wait for unreliable, slow, power hungry block based storage (e.g. HDD/flash/SSDs) to just go away.

    Yet as much as I can dream and be encouraged by compatibility with existing process.. I'll only believe its real when I can buy it.

    1. Re:Thank goodness by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's wrong with block based storage? Do cache lines of 64 bytes bother you too?

      As for speed, go with IBM or Violin memory if flash is too slow for you.

  10. Just in time by nvm_my_comment · · Score: 1

    To use with my quantum computer, powered by nuclear fusion reactor.

  11. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What Nanterro is doing is prima fascie fraud, trying to capitalize on non-technically-literate investors.

    They've done virtually no research since its foundation in 2001, but I constantly see them on semiconductor engineering conferences pitching to investors with something like "hey, we have a fab reaby solution, we just need few more millions you can give us to commercialize it".

    1. Re:Hmmm by HiThere · · Score: 1

      So you work for their competition, then?

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Hmmm by Goldsmith · · Score: 2

      No, he probably just goes to nanotechnology conferences. Nantero does have a pretty well earned reputation for spending a lot of money on not a lot of progress. Read TFA, they're claiming all this stuff in the summary is just "a few years" away, not actually here. This all has to do with Nantero closing another round of funding today not any technical milestones. It is unfair to pick on Nanotero though. There were a generation of Silicon Valley nanotech companies who all did the same thing. Nanotero has actually been very frugal and responsible compared to most of them.

  12. It's great and all... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    I think AMD is going to beat them to the punch with HBM and module stacking and is coming out on their next gen videocards, especially since DDR5 is just starting to roll out to the PC market for generic modules. It'll be a hard slog for them to push it in anywhere unless it's price competitive, or it's in highly specialized devices at least in the short term. I'd say 10 years before it rolls out to the general public, for public use. And they'll probably be bought up by someone else in the short term.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:It's great and all... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HBM isn't nonvolatile....

    2. Re:It's great and all... by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      HBM isn't nonvolatile....

      Neither is DRAM.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    3. Re:It's great and all... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This story is about non-volatile RAM made from carbon nanotubes, as a flash replacement that's as fast as DRAM (hence your confusion?).

      AMD adding a few through-holes to some memory chips so they can stack them is neat and all, but it's not even the same league as this stuff, and it's not relevant to the future of the NVRAM markets at all.

      I'd say ten years before this basic distinction rolls out to the general public. No, wait, even my brother in law gets that a USB stick isn't like a DDR stick.

  13. rule of thumb: 2 years away by Tyrannosaur · · Score: 1

    three times more dense than today's

    So according to Moore's law we are about 2 years away from having these in everyday electronics?

    Ps /. Mobile is really broken. I had to spoof a desktop browser to post this. Current vrowser: opera mobile 29.0

    1. Re:rule of thumb: 2 years away by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I use mobile firefox and noscript turning javascript off. I also have slashdot set to "classic" mode (I remember whenSlashdot 2.0 got as much whining as Beta). Works like a charm.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:rule of thumb: 2 years away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So according to Moore's law we are about 2 years away from having these in everyday electronics?

      Number of transistors in an IC, that is what Moore's law (or observation) is about.

      These are not transistors so Moore's law does not apply. Perhaps you would like to make a Tyrannosaurs law that claims something similar for nanotubes in an IC?
      I suspect it will be attributed to someone else since misusing Moore's law hardly is original.

    3. Re:rule of thumb: 2 years away by Tyrannosaur · · Score: 1

      I don't know why I am replying to an AC troll...

      NRAM has the potential to create memory that is vastly more dense that NAND flash, as its transistors can shrink to below 5 nanometers in size, three times more dense than today's densest NAND flash. .

      from the article

      Each NRAM "cell" or transistor is made up the network of the carbon nanotubes that exist between two metal electrodes. The memory acts the same way as other resistive non-volatile RAM technologies.

      If it looks like a transistor, and it acts like a transistor.....

      Someone thinks there is only one type of transistor... Transistor Types

      Transistors have been redesigned many times. Oh look! It's happened again!
      Carbon Nanotube Field-effect Transistor

      Unless your argument is that memory isn't an IC?

  14. Will this make for a single memory space computer? by swb · · Score: 2

    One where there is no differentiation between "disk" and "RAM"?

  15. Interesting process by drhank1980 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Looking at the pictures in the slides this looks very similar to a carbon nanotube memory process I worked on at my last job (we might have even been licensing some of the IP from these guys). We were looking for a way to shrink our microcontroller die by moving the EEPROM cells up into the metallization stacks. An additional benefit to this memory was that we would be able to increase the EEPROM memory size 2x (with a second layer of cells) with the addition of just 5 more masking layers and almost no increase in die size.

    The process I worked on was nowhere near volume production when I left; but I do know we did have completely functional die with carbon nanotube memory. The one part of the process that was most challenging was dealing with the carbon nanotube spin on process. It took forever to get the right thickness uniformity and once you had it at the correct thickness you were rewarded with a material that had filled in your lithography alignment structures to the point they were almost worthless for the next patterning step. It was pretty cool tech to work on, I am glad it looks like somebody is getting it to work.

  16. Re:Will this make for a single memory space comput by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It does seem to be one of the many technologies claiming to be able to do so. Still looks to be a long way away if it's possible.

  17. That's funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought FRAM made air and oil filters, not computer memory. I suppose this will help us all to remember to do routine maintenance. That or routinely rotate our mouse balls and change our computers' oil.

  18. one third the size, nine times the density by renergy · · Score: 1

    The density of data stored in plane goes with the inverse square of the element size (just a quick remark)

    1. Re:one third the size, nine times the density by boristdog · · Score: 1

      Yes, thank you. That was bugging the crap out of me. 3x feature shrink = 9x more devices per area.

  19. American idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "has been developing it since,"

    Since when?

    "creating gum sticks SSDs"

  20. Interesting, but... by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

    ... this will translate into a product that I can use in less than 20, 30 years? Or will become another of the military toys we civilians will never know are there?

    --
    Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
  21. Interesting quantum effects may come into play... by vikingpower · · Score: 2

    ... if you raise the operating temperature a couple of hundred Kelvin, then quantum docoherence and environmental scattering are going to play a role, meaning that information held in any one of the cells may simply vanish by "leaking" into a coupled environment. A little bit of thermal background radiation is enough to set such processes into motion.

    --
    Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace