Slashdot Mirror
How Does Musk's Government Funding Compare To Competitors?
Rei writes: We recently discussed an article in the LA Times complaining about how Elon Musk has built his corporate empires — Solar City, Tesla Motors and SpaceX — on the back of government subsidies. However, how does the funding compare in context to various competitors? USC professor Greg Autry breaks it down, noting among other things that SpaceX's competitors have benefited from decades of tremendous government money and a launch monopoly, while the Volt receives — on a percentage basis — 2 1/2 times greater subsidy than a Model S, and was developed on the government's dime.
Sure, he has no clothes himself, but being naked is a sign of status.
while the Volt receives — on a percentage basis — 2 1/2 times greater subsidy than a Model S, and was developed on the government's dime.
Maybe that is because a Model S costs 2.4 times that of a Volt. On a per vehicle basis they are almost the same.
Elon Musk has alot of fans and fanboys. Government helped him out thats cool better then all those start-up's and solar turds that died that took all that money 4 years ago. but i think people would like musks cars and ideas if they where more practical to more people. most his cars wont see mass usage for along time. they are cool and they make for good youtube videos and car magazine reads. but intill tesla has a car that will travel long range its just a toy for someone with a bmw or benz all ready siting in garage . i dont see the cheaper model 3 being any better ..seeing how used volts sell for 11k-16k . tesla isnt bad just its not for travelers or common people ..its a apple watch with wheels
No one cares how he compares to competition. There are two broad groups of people on this:
1) People think it's fine for the government to subsidize some industry.
2) People who think the government should not subsidize industry.
The people in group #1 think it's good that the Tesla and Volt got government funding. The people in group #2 oppose funding of both Tesla and Volt. So a study like this will change no one's opinion (and from the author's writing, it is clear that is what he's trying to do).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
.
For instance, General Electric is always whining about taxes, yet pays a small percentage of revenue in taxes. It's an example of a corporation that is focused on taking, not giving.
So if you want to complain about excessive government subsidies, don't just look at one industry.
lololol trolled hard
You can read the whole article (and you should), but here are some nice excerpts.
FTA: On the electric car front, the Chevy Volt is the most significant U.S. competitor to Musk's Tesla Model S...
Meanwhile, Volt was developed during Uncle Sam's bailout of "Government Motors" with $30 billion. That's more than six times the number that got Mr. Hirsch so worked up! Though GM touts that they've "repaid" the government, Treasury reports that the government lost more than $11 billion on that dubious deal.
The Model S is not comparable to the Volt. The Volt is a plug-in hybrid (not an EV) cludge to meet the requirements of a bail out. The Nissan Leaf is a better comparison and it blows the Model S out of the water in its effects on the market. But, the author wants to hamstring a stronger comparison by requiring that the company be American.
Additionally, a bail out deal and subsidy are not comparable. A bail out deal your mom throwing you a few hundred bucks because your business failed, rent needs to be paid, and you have to go visit her to pick up the check. A subsidy is your mom throwing you a few hundred bucks to start up or expand your business. One's there to save your as with some nominal requirements and the other is there to help you profit. Musk has taken both for Tesla.
FTA: The most polite response I can offer to the critics is: Get over it. Find something more productive to do than condemning success. If you insist on continuing to carp, do your research first and hit the right targets. Otherwise you will continue to sound jealous and misinformed.
Wow, internet tough guy, huh?
Oh, and this isn't the only time this guy has white-knighted for Musk. He's actually a bit of a fanboy, so don't let his professorship lull you into a false sense of academic separation:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/... "Disclosure: Dr. Autry currently owns Tesla stock."
https://twitter.com/gregwautry
https://www.facebook.com/gregw...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/re...
I'm getting a little sick of the slovenly Musk worship on this site. It's worse than the way 99% of Slashdotters used to drop to their knees anytime Steve Jobs whipped his dick out. Like Jobs, Musk could take a shit on stage and most of your pathetic fanboys would be fighting each other for the privilege to touch it.
Touch it? Hell, they'd fight to eat it.
There's a storyline going on right now.
Musk is frequently portrayed as a great symbol of free enterprise. Someone likely got sick of this and looked into how much government money Musk's companies were receiving. That in turn generated this particular response to point out the fraction of government money that Musk's companies received compared to competitors.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
1. Elon Musk is the Alpha monkey in Silicon Valley has has a bunch fanbois trying to ape his success - notice how quickly one gets modded down by those baboons.
2. Billionaires and corporations hire PR firms to manage their image. And to keep them in the public eye. Also, part of the PR firms' job is to Troll websites like this and counter anything and everything that runs counter to their message. It can be a fun part-time job when you can get it. It doesn't pay that well and can get boring - especially when you get into a flame war with someone who knows what they are talking about.
That was a good explanation of what is the point of this story. I have an analogy for such cases: defending someone who kills kittens, by claiming others did the same before and/or in a greater extent - o.k., maybe a bad analogy, but "a great symbol of free enterprise with government's money" is an oxymoron in any case!
Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
The reason we use government funding to incentivize things is because we as a public want people to do/build/invent/fix those things and are willing to pay for that to happen.
So Elon Musk comes along and says he will and then he does. And then we pay him what, as a public, we planned to pay (via those incentives) to whoever did them.
Seems like everything is going according to plan, for all involved, and that we're lucky enough to have found something of a one-stop-shop for incentivized work that few others are willing to take on, but that seems to really move the needle on tech progress for something other than consumer electronics gadgets.
Win/win all around. Smells like right wing paranoia and demagoguery to me in here.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
I see a lot of people reacting as if all funding is just a governement subsidy, but if the government is paying you to launch something into space for them, that is not a subsidy. A subsidy is when the government pays money either to the company or the consumer to reduce the price of an item.
Therein lies the problem. A comparison of lavish subsidies among various companies rather than responsible subsidies with some strings attached. Currently massive amounts of tax payer dollars are hemorrhaging from capitol hill.
If we get low cost to LEO and baseload batteries out of Musk's efforts, then he is making much better use of any government money than the government is.
He's possibly the most creative, intelligent, thoughtful, forward-thinking person on the planet. For so many reasons. Your knowledge of him must be minimal.
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Like Jobs, Musk could take a shit on stage and most of your pathetic fanboys would be fighting each other for the privilege to touch it.
Of course I would. I'd sell it on ebay. I know a lot of people who would pay for that sort of shit.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
This is Slashdot, not Reddit. We lust after Woz here.
Musk is changing industries, big ones. From finance (Paypal, I know, it does suck, but alternatives are few and far between), solar, battery, electric cars, and space flight.
Jobs was a pioneer of computing but ended up a design specialist (good function and things like rounded corners).
I am a fanboy or no one. But I have to respect Musk as he doesn't talk about things, he does them. Richard Branson probably wishes he was Elon Musk...
I appreciate all of the Slashdot stories referring to Musk's activities. I don't actively seek out such information, but Slashdot provides it. And you certainly can't make an argument that the stories' topics aren't Slashdot fodder. Musk is a technical innovator of the highest standard, I don't believe anyone compares to him at this moment in time.
In conclusion, skip the story if you don't give a shit. That's what I do and I don't find myself needing to criticize or complain about story topics.
BlameBillCosby.com
He's possibly the most creative, intelligent, thoughtful, forward-thinking person on the planet. For so many reasons. Your knowledge of him must be minimal.
Tell me, when you typed that, did you give him a handjob with your right hand and type it with your left, or vice versa?
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
I'm sorry, when I read your first sentence I was expecting some rant about how we're being lazy about our worship of Musk. Not how far we'd go.
We need more Idols! More sacrifices! Fancier golden alters! ;)
I like the idea of the Model S, would probably have to buy a leaf. I've looked at electric motorcycles.
I don't read AC A human right
You cannot lay the $11B lost by the government at GM's feet.
GM underwent a debt-for-equity swap. This happens when the debt holders feel the company would be better off with less debt and if they convert the debt to equity (ownership) they can share in that improvement.
Once the debt-for-equity swap occurs, it is on the shareholder to decide whether to hold to break even (or make money) or to liquidate the equity at a loss. The government decided for political reasons to take the loss. If the government had held longer they would have made money instead of losing it. But does this mean it is GM's fault that the government lost money? No, not any more that it is Apple's fault if you sold their stock before it went up.
Ford also had huge debt and executed a debt-for-equity swap during this period.
Say... if this guy is so against condemning success why is he condemning the Volt? How can he tell others to be above dishing out criticism while banging the drum himself?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
They're all just hopping he's gonna finally bag Dagny Taggart.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
You're right. People aren't appreciative *enough* of him.
Let's see. Creates the best car ever, creates rockets for fun and as insurance to potentially save humanity by going to Mars, going to create rockets at least half the price as competitors, and potentially 100x cheaper, wants to save the Earth from CO2 and is beginning to do it, amazing engineer, helped create Paypal (when it was good), open-sourced patents, envisaged design for hyperloop, building the largest battery factory ever made by an order of magnitude or more, wanted to originally research supercaps (great area to study!), cares about quality rather than just money. Put every last penny he had at his own cost in order to save Tesla and SpaceX. Speaks frankly during interviews.
No one like him.
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Is Elon's shit carbonfiber-reinforced and Li-Po-powered? 'Cause if it is, that *might* just be a turd that I want to read about...
Is Elon's shit carbonfiber-reinforced and Li-Po-powered?
Of course it is dude, he is Elon, that is his super power, and he is using his rocket propelled shit when he takes a crap on bad guys.
'Cause if it is, that *might* just be a turd that I want to read about...
You read it here first!
Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
news doesn't just happen it has to be crafted :)
He's currently working on advancing battery technology, making practical electric cars, and lowering cost to low Earth orbit, among other things. If we can get any of the three out of it, it'll be worth all the subsidies he's gotten.
He does things with tremendous geek appeal, and he's gotten some things done while making credible efforts at others. I think he's going to get to routine recovery of Falcon first stages, and that's huge. He's working on restoring US ability to send people to orbit.
He's the most interesting geek around.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
What a crock. You're trolling, right? There can't be anybody so worshipful of dude who is spending off his PayPal fortune.
The Tesla isn't the greatest car ever by any measure that most people would acknowledge.
Rockets for fun?? Save humanity? Save the earth from CO2? Oh, and he spends every penny on his adventures to save mother earth.
Get your head out of the dark dude.
Envy is pathetic. The government offers incentives and leftists bitch because someone is smart enough and driven enough to capture those subsidies for his own ends. The answer is simple, remove the subsidies. Do that, and I'm pretty sure Mr Musk or others like him from of the productive classes will adapt and find some other way to achieve their vision. If space X can achieve its goals of cost to launch a pound into orbit, society will have been greatly advanced in ways that Nasa has failed to accomplish after 50 years and untold billions spent.
Motorbikes are so fuel efficient (and cheap) that it's pointless going electric.
But we also have voting, and the voting public chooses leadership, often in part on the basis of precisely the use of policy to incentivize behavior with government funds. Tax breaks for specific kinds of behavior being the most common of these.
This gives the public two ways to encourage people ot do/build/invent/fix things; one for individual choices, and one for collective goods, presumably (though people don't often think in these ways) to avoid tragedy-of-the-commons situations.
You were never asked per se, but you are a member of said voting public if you're complaining that Musk is being supported by you tax dollars. In such cases, you may or may not have a beef, but we're beyond complaining about Elon Musk there and into the basic tensions of democratic governance, which really isn't all about whether Musk is a good guy or a bad guy, but about whether you like collective goods or not, and if so, what system you prefer for choosing them.
That's political science, political philosophy, and/or the fringe of sociology, but has little to do (once again) with this particular article.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Dude, your comment is so misinformed. Do some research, you act like Elon's some internet fortune playboy who just happened to throw some money at a few projects. He's actually a work-aholic engineer who spent his 100M+ Paypal fortune (that he earned from, ya know, creating and selling PayPal) starting two companies in industries no one expected him to succeed in. Both companies are arguably the most innovative in their fields.
"Best car in the world" - Subjective, but it's not crazy that people would think that. It's a production sedan that seats 7 (5 + 2 children), goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and has a 17 inch touchscreen. Oh, and uses zero gas, sells as fast as they can make them and is paving the way for cheaper electric cars. I could go on, but everyone has their own opinion of "best". So I'll just cite some of it's achievements: it won Motor Trend car of the year, got 99/100 (highest score ever) from consumer reports and received the highest safety car of any car ever tested (seriously, look it up). You might not like the car, but contrary to what you claim, there are a lot of measures that say it's an amazing car.
Rockets for fun / saving humanity - Musk put the fortune he earned into launching a Mars rocket that would convince NASA to fund Mars exploration. Frustrated, he eventually decided to start his own company. He's always claimed the purpose of SpaceX was to make humanity an interplanetary species. It's also the most innovative space launch company in as long as anyone can remember. They're basically turning science fiction into reality... re-landing rocket stages, seriously!
Spend every penny - There's a lot of truth to this too, he poured all his PayPal fortune into SpaceX and later Tesla Motors, to the point where he had to borrow money from friends in 2008. By all accounts, these companies were both close to failing, permanently in 2008. Only his final investments and hard work kept these companies from going under. Go read about it.
Well, yes.
I mean, not killing kittens, but, for example, speeding in a car on the highway. Everyone does it, and we use everyone doing it as why we do.
It shows the hypocrisy of those whining about "Eco friendly" businesses getting government aid whilst being absolitely silent about non-eco businesses getting even more.
Lastly, didn't you notice? Others get more. It's like when you're stopped by the police for a broken light and you ask why they're not going after real criminals.
Or, it could just mean that speed limits are usually grossly underposted.
It's all about the revenue!