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Intel Skylake & Broxton Graphics Processors To Start Mandating Binary Blobs

An anonymous reader writes: Intel has often been portrayed as the golden child within the Linux community and by those desiring a fully-free system without tainting their kernel with binary blobs while wanting a fully-supported open-source driver. The Intel Linux graphics driver over the years hasn't required any firmware blobs for acceleration, compared to AMD's open-source driver having many binary-only microcode files and Nouveau also needing blobs — including firmware files that NVIDIA still hasn't released for their latest GPUs. However, beginning with Intel Skylake and Broxton CPUs, their open-source driver will now too require closed-source firmware. The required "GuC" and "DMC" firmware files are for handling the new hardware's display microcontroller and workload scheduling engine. These firmware files are explicitly closed-source licensed and forbid any reverse-engineering. What choices are left for those wanting a fully-free, de-blobbed system while having a usable desktop?

193 comments

  1. rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Q: What guarantee do we have that these binary blobs don't contain root kits?
    A: None.

    This really isn't acceptable. :(

    1. Re:rootkit? by BlueStrat · · Score: 5, Funny

      Q: What guarantee do we have that these binary blobs don't contain root kits?
      A: None.

      This really isn't acceptable. :(

      Aw, c'mon! It's not like the NSA would risk vital US infrastructure, foreign trade, and financial/military/corporate/individual security by deliberately compromising the security of widely used operating systems, software, and/or encryption!

      That's just crazy talk.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    2. Re:rootkit? by CaptainJeff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The same guarantee that the microcode running in the GPU itself doesn't have any rootkits. Or that the microcode in the CPU itself doesn't. Or the rest of the chipset. etc.

    3. Re:rootkit? by Bengie · · Score: 0

      I think there should be an anti-trust case.

    4. Re:rootkit? by WaffleMonster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Q: What guarantee do we have that these binary blobs don't contain root kits?
      A: None.

      This really isn't acceptable. :(

      This is madness. They own the hardware. If you don't trust the vendor they can still screw you in hardware. Your fucked either way.

      I don't recall people bitching about CPU microcode or any of a dozen subsystems in a typical computer which run on closed proprietary firmware.

      I actually think this is something we should be encouraging more of. What is dangerous is systems downloading firmware from onboard field upgradable roms because attackers have leveraged these vectors to destroy gear and persist ownage even after compromised systems have been completely wiped.

    5. Re:rootkit? by kthreadd · · Score: 1

      Q: What guarantee do we have that these binary blobs don't contain root kits? A: None.

      This really isn't acceptable. :(

      Would you feel better if the CPU/GPU came with the firmware preloaded? I agree that it's not ideal but the code is not loaded into the kernel, it's loaded into the hardware by the kernel.

    6. Re:rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Aw, c'mon! It's not like the En Essay would risk

      Someone could do it for them. Wasn't it clever what Sonny did with audio CDs?

      As for reverse engineering, I hear that it's not only not banned, but required, on Mars. At least that's what the friend who bought a section of it for $1 says.
      He believes that to do well, EVERYTHING must be recyclable on Mars. He reminded that some instances may not go over to well. He wouldn't say what, but instead replied with a query:

      Q: What's the difference between a Vagan and a member of ALEC?

      A: Vagans never consume human flesh.

      Do you know where your source is?
      http://pub-db.com/google-analy...

    7. Re:rootkit? by Megol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are you aware that Intel (and AMD) have binary blobs combined with strong encryption and cryptographic signatures loaded into their processors? That those blobs can change execution behavior of individual instructions with essentially* no way to detect them? Those are called microcode updates and even if you disable loading new versions of microcode in the BIOS they are delivered with a standard one in onboard ROM.

      (* statistical analysis using several processors of the same stepping running in identical systems but with different microcode revisions may work, no guarantee though)

    8. Re:rootkit? by Pinky's+Brain · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Between UEFI and SMM I consider x86 a rootkit, period.

    9. Re:rootkit? by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Someone could do it for them.

      Well, yeah?

      That's kind of the way they typically accomplish these sorts of things, is it not? It's not like you get the compromised software/encryption tools/etc directly from some NSA server farm in Alexandria, VA. Sorry if I assumed everyone took that as a given.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    10. Re:rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. I hope I can buy some non x86 based hardware soon.

    11. Re:rootkit? by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      Between UEFI and SMM I consider x86 a rootkit, period.

      Very much this, along with the microcode/hardware issues noted above.

      Pretty much, if you don't want it snoop-able, don't put that data on or connect it to/through a commercial consumer computer, especially if it/both is/are not air-gapped from the internet.

      The old ways are best. Sneakernets, dead-drops, OTPs for a few examples. The hugely increased reliance on the compromise of digital communications and computer system/network technology and the funding they've necessarily curtailed in other areas as a consequence is their weakness. In large measure they have 'hitched their star' almost exclusively to digital surveillance & control.

      The intelligence services, with the concentration mainly on the digital world, have far fewer personnel and smaller budgets these days for the old human-resource-intensive sectors of domestic intelligence work to tie up doing time-consuming boots-on-the-ground tasks like actually following/trailing multitudes of individual subjects for any extended time and/or tasking personnel to weeks/months/years of ongoing residential/urban surveillance of multiple thousands of individuals/small groups. It's a numbers game.

      It's simply a matter of if/when enough people feel things have gotten bad enough that actually taking action to defend their civil rights is better than the alternative.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    12. Re:rootkit? by kthreadd · · Score: 2

      There's several to choose from. ARM, POWER, SPARC, just to mention a few.

    13. Re:rootkit? by Guy+Harris · · Score: 2

      You cross 9 roads and come through unharmed.

      So you think about the tenth like "it's just another road... I crossed others before and nothing happened".

      But this one is different: this is the one that will kill you.

      And this is the binary blob that will spy on you. If you can prove it's not, JUST DO IT.

      Can you prove that the microcode running in the GPU isn't a binary-blob-in-Flash that will spy on you? What makes these binary blobs special?

    14. Re:rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This is madness. They own the hardware. If you don't trust the vendor they can still screw you in hardware. Your fucked either way.

      Wrong. I would own the hardware; they just manufactured it. That's is still a distinction that matters, albeit, barely.

    15. Re:rootkit? by Copid · · Score: 4, Informative

      Exactly. I get a very strong feeling that a lot of people don't know what they're talking about here. There are "binary blobs" that are actually drivers or libraries used by drivers that get executed on your workstation's CPU and there are "binary blobs" that are just microcode that run on your graphics card / wifi NIC / sound card / whatever. I'm not in favor of the first type, but the second type is really not a big deal. Very few nontrivial chip designs exist these days without some sort of microcode.

      Nobody gets upset about the microcode that lives in ROM in the hardware, but if you have a driver that loads the microcode, suddenly everybody loses their shit. Microcode is *everywhere* and it's very rare that you ever get to see it.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    16. Re:rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remember's Intel foray into DLC upgrades to their CPU's?

      http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/18/intel-wants-to-charge-50-to-unlock-stuff-your-cpu-can-already-d/

      "this $50 card -- and sure enough, Intel websites confirm -- that lets you download software to unlock extra threads and cache on the new Pentium G6951 processor."

      On one side, proprietary firmware blobs tend to be more secure in the sense of hiding any flaws that may be exploited to "root" the system since drivers tend to run privileged. On the other side, proprietary blobs hide bugs and "malicious" or "cheating" being done by the driver. Think about MSI cheating, and selling cards that will burn out substantially quicker: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/MSI-GTX-660-670-overvolting-PowerEdition,18013.html

      But I think the benefits outweigh the risks. In a completely "secure" environment, you wouldn't be using these proprietary blobs in the first place. In something that is used as a desktop for games, this allows the driver developers to produce one blob that works on any platform. That's a win for Linux.

    17. Re:rootkit? by CBravo · · Score: 1

      No, you mix two arguments. You can still publish a signed copy of a further perfectly open process. And only the signed copy will be accepted.

      --
      nosig today
    18. Re: rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I guess he means they own the hardware design. You just own a piece of silicon that contains an instance of that hardware design.

    19. Re:rootkit? by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I think the reason reverse engineering is forbidden is because of Intel's new DRM scheme:

      https://www.virusbtn.com/virus...

      Which by the way, among other things, this new DRM scheme would also allow malware to completely hide itself from not only AV software, but you as well. And in a perfect world (i.e. if SGX works as intel plans) nobody would be able to remove any malware that uses this.

    20. Re: rootkit? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      UEFI isn't exclusive to x86. Some ARM platforms use it, and it actually originated with Itanium.

  2. mandate? by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They aren't "mandating" anything. You buy their product, and they provide some closed source software with it that you need to get some of the functions. It sucks, but it isn't a "mandate".

    You might want to consider letting it not bother you too much, though. After all, these chips have been full of proprietary code in the equivalent of ROM for a long time. The fact that some of it is migrating into RAM doesn't really change things very much.

    If you really don't like loading proprietary blobs from RAM, use embedded processors; they usually don't do that because it wouldn't work very well in their environment.

    If you really want to run a "fully-free, de-blobbed system", you need to get an open source processor and an open source motherboard.

    1. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In all fairness, I've bought many Intel processors. Never once have a bought Intel graphics!

    2. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you really want to run a "fully-free, de-blobbed system", you need to get an open source processor and an open source motherboard.

      Or, we can just reverse engineer it anyway and pry it open. Fuck 'em! Please release all hacks anonymously to avoid the damn cops. This is all being done because the authorities want everything locked down. Powerful computers in the "wrong" hands are a big threat to them.

    3. Re:mandate? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 0

      If anything this is actually better for people who worry about privacy. As long as you live in a jurisdiction where reverse engineering is allowed you can now disassemble the blob and check that it isn't screwing you with a backdoor or something.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re:mandate? by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      The thing is, you're likely to want to in the future. With the most recent generation, Intel's Integrated graphics is actually better than AMD's best APU graphics.

      http://www.anandtech.com/show/...

    5. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, I think the reason is that a lot of the performance is in the software, not the hardware. So if Intel releases an open source version of the blob, they are afraid that their rivals copy their work. Another reason could be that they've licensed the solution (hardware along with software blob) from another company and the license forbids them from publishing anything about it. Or some combination of these reasons.

      But I'm all with you on the reverse engineering bit. I know about the DMCA in the US but I don't think RE can be stopped everywhere. Go for it.

      .

    6. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which isn't saying much. iGPUs are still shit compared to a real graphics card.

    7. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another reason could be that they've licensed the solution (hardware along with software blob) from another company and the license forbids them from publishing anything about it.

      Or the NSA has begun distributing some GPU-based spyware. And they don't want any users to RE the firmware and ask why their graphics card is forwarding all their e-mail to servers in Utah.

    8. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need the blobs. Without them, you loose some functionality - but you can still get your word processing done. The bios boots without blobs, the early part of any OS runs without the blobs - you still get the error messages when the root mount fails and so on.

    9. Re:mandate? by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

      Pointless unless all you want is one, maybe 2 screens on your box. Until they put the Intel chips on a card in is a non starter in my book.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    10. Re:mandate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      They aren't "mandating" anything.

      They are virtually a monopoly, certainly a cartel. Different rules apply.

    11. Re:mandate? by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      You seem to be massively underestimating the performance of modern (or even decade old) integrated graphics.

      Modern IGPs will run GTA5 at 60fps. They will happily let you connect 3 4k monitors and run them at perfectly fine refresh rates. They will let you do basically anything you want, except for run very high end games at very high end detail settings.

    12. Re:mandate? by pjbgravely · · Score: 1

      You are right, I haven't looked at any really modern mother boards, my 4 year old board has one DVI output, So I put in 2 video cards so I can have 4 screens, my next box I will limit to 3 video cards, 5 seems like overkill. I just looked at an expensive MB with Intel graphics , it had 2 screen capability.

      --
      Star Trek, there maybe hope.
    13. Re:mandate? by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      It depends on how serious you are about gaming. I have fifty-odd games in my Steam library that work on an older AMD APU, and it can also run Starcraft 2, Call of Duty: Black Ops 2, and a few other mid-tier games. Sure it gets crushed by an Intel CPU and dedicated GPU, but it's good enough for me and my kids.

    14. Re:mandate? by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      You don't even need an expensive one. Any one that supplies a DisplayPort port will let you hook up 4 monitors straight away to that (daisy chaining ftw).

  3. Choices by OzPeter · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What choices are left for those wanting a fully-free, de-blobbed system while having a usable desktop?

    How about don't use these new systems? And keep on using what you have used in the past?

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    1. Re:Choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...or since they're apparently so insistent on a "truly free and open system" they should go right ahead and design their own cpu, motherboards, bus and memory interfaces, graphics and get it manufactured as one offs.

      I find it hilarious when you get all these kooks coming out of the woodwork going wah, can't fix bugs, wah can't add features, etc. Then ask them exactly how many bugs that they have personally fixed, how many features that they have personally added, etc. SPOILER: Usually you're met with resounding silence or yet another strawman.

    2. Re:Choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, Richard Stallman.

    3. Re:Choices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about don't use these new systems? And keep on using what you have used in the past?

      The problem is, a pc rarely lasts more than 5-10 years. The motherboard or power supply simply fails. Also, you may want a new PC for reasons other than the GPU. Faster CPU, faster memory, recent SSD technology, 4K display, low-power tech . . .

      So at some point, anyone will need a new PC. Currently, you go blob-free by buying the cheaper models that don't have the newest stuff. It'll be interesting to see if there will be a way in the future.

  4. Why would I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As long as the firmware blobs are readily available, why would I care that my drivers have to push the blobs to the device to get it to function? I just want to be able to use the hardware, which the driver+blob framework provides for me.

    From a practical perspective, I don't find it surprising that the efficient operation of the video hardware requires custom coded binary firmware because the graphics cards are more like embedded computer systems than video cards today. The companies developing these cards pour a lot of resources into the development of the hardware in these embedded computation devices and they have a right to protect their investments by not showing the rest of the world how they did it (after all, there is a reason that developers are generally among the most highly compensated individual contributors in a company - they are paid that money because the things that they produce require high levels of skill and lots of labor and therefore have intrinsic value - giving away intrinsic value for nothing is a sure-fire way to go out of business).

    1. Re:Why would I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go away!

      Fucking shill!

      If it can be reverse engineered, that is what will shall be done. Hopefully anonymously so they don't get caught.

    2. Re:Why would I care? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      The problem is if a blob isn't compatible with the open source kernel, then you have problems either license wise or by non-functioning software.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    3. Re:Why would I care? by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      I thought that the point is that the new blobs are basically the equivalent of the firmware that's already in the hardware, and that there's an open-source driver in the kernel. So, we'll be stuck if there's some bug in the blob that we'd like to fix but can't, but the interface between the kernel and the blob would happen in the driver. Or do I have something wrong?

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    4. Re:Why would I care? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Go away!

      Fucking shill!

      If it can be reverse engineered, that is what will shall be done. Hopefully anonymously so they don't get caught.

      Correct me if I am wrong, but, what I got from this is that you do not have any idea what you are doing and that having the source is completely meaningless to you.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    5. Re:Why would I care? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      binary blob just means they're licensing the shit now because they can't make it work otherwise and the licensing deals forbid open sourcing it so other gpu companies can't look at it and steal stuff from it or RATHER the other gpu companies can't so easily look and see what's used that's under patent by them.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    6. Re:Why would I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be an idiot. Having the source would be wonderful, but without access, other methods must be employed.

  5. This matters because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    ...you care about modifying the display microcontroller and workload scheduling engine. I'm a proponant of open-source (open and free) software/firmware, but if your concern is that you can't wish open and free firmware from a company that is not open, then you are just like a Bible Thumper wishing your beliefs onto other people.
    Final thoughts:
    1) You have a problem with paying for the firmware, but not the hardware.
    2) You are concerned that Intel's new processors will be "unusable" if not "de-blobbed."
    3) You have too much time on your hands if you are concerned about being able to modify display microntroller firmware.
    4) Even if documentation was publicly available, you probably don't have the skills to modify the display microntroller and workload scheduling engine....you sound like the Bible Thumper type.

    1. Re:This matters because... by Immerman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I'm inclined to dismiss binary blobs as largely innocuous in most scenarios, you are oversimplifying things considerably.

      1) Just because *I* don't have the time or interest to modify display firmware, doesn't mean I'm not in a position to benefit from *other people* doing so. Witness the entire Linux infrastructure, which owes its existence to the fact that the software stack of the time was NOT locked down, and critical hardware was all reasonably well documented.

      2) The binary blobs are themselves dangerous - driver software is typically running with very high security clearance, and you have absolutely NO idea what is going on inside those blobs. Couple that with the fact that we now KNOW the NSA (and presumably other organizations as well) have actively recruited several major companies to collaborate in compromising the security of commodity hardware, and we're in the position of being completely unable to trust ANY binary-blob software in a security-critical scenario. Since Intel was pretty much the go-to option for decent(ish) fully open-source display accelerators, that alone validates a subset of the original question: What are our options now if we want a modern desktop that can be be audited for security?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:This matters because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      At this point you may have to keep your new computers on their own network that is not attached to the Internet. Use the older computers where such a security audit is necessary and only allow them onto the Internet.

      Besides binary blobs as security problems, we also do not know everything we need to about the rest of the hardware in the system. Anyone that can acquire computer hardware from the last 15 years and Internet access for less then a day can get a system up and running with tools to compile software with. That's a pretty low barrier to entry, especially considering you can teach yourself to program for free with books from the city library. Sure, they are old, but its still coding.

      Can't do that with hardware. Even if you can learn how to model and design hardware, you still need access to a fabrication factory to make your parts. This will cost a lot, especially if your first design isn't perfect.

      We're screwed for the time being.

    3. Re:This matters because... by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      The binary blobs are themselves dangerous - driver software is typically running with very high security clearance, and you have absolutely NO idea what is going on inside those blobs.

      The hardware is dangerous typically running with very high security clearance, and you have absolutely NO idea what is going on inside those transistors.

      Couple that with the fact that we now KNOW the NSA (and presumably other organizations as well) have actively recruited several major companies to collaborate in compromising the security of commodity hardware, and we're in the position of being completely unable to trust ANY binary-blob software in a security-critical scenario.

      I KNOW there are devil worshipers operating in the world so I am "completely unable to trust" ANYONE because they may be a devil worshiper.

      Without specific information what you KNOW is FUD.

      Since Intel was pretty much the go-to option for decent(ish) fully open-source display accelerators, that alone validates a subset of the original question: What are our options now if we want a modern desktop that can be be audited for security?

      Before the very same proprietary firmware was burnt into silicon. The only difference "now" is less ignorance.

    4. Re:This matters because... by Immerman · · Score: 2

      Compromised hardware though is (potentially) far more limited in its invasiveness. The CPU and motherboard chipset has fairly unrestricted access to the entire system and must be trusted, but pretty much everything else must go through those, and generally through the OS as well, which limits the amount of nefarious activity it can get up to (or at least makes it considerably more difficult, one would hope). For example, the firmware on the video card itself will have a difficult time gaining unrestricted access to RAM, hard drives, user input, network traffic, etc. At least if the OS is even moderately restrictive about DMA activity. The CPU-hosted driver on the other hand will, in most current OSes, be running with such elevated privileges that it will be trivial for it to gain such access.

      Or so I understand it. I'll freely admit it's been a long while since I paid much attention to such details.

      And of course it also raises the question - if you can't trust Intel's binary blobs in the driver, how can you trust their CPUs and chipsets? In that context I'd say their fully open video drivers were more valuable as a good example to their competitors than as true security. Though I suppose it is much easier to retroactively compromise existing hardware at the driver level, and it would likely require far fewer people to be complicit than hardware/microcode compromises would.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    5. Re:This matters because... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Not really. See my reply above: http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:This matters because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4) Even if documentation was publicly available, you probably don't have the skills to modify the display microntroller and workload scheduling engine....you sound like the Bible Thumper type.

      Actually, I have the skills. I admit I probably won't be using them for this though. Still, there are hw hackers out there who improve on open-source drivers all the time, and I benefit from that. I am pretty sure that some of them would be able to improve on "blob sw" if they had the chance - a chance in the form of documented hw and source for those blobs. And no, competitors could not benefit from such source, because this source is highly hw specific. The competitors might benefit from knowing the exact transistor layout and production methods of a competitor - not from knowing the boring details of firmware driver software. Intel's firmware will only ever work for specific Intel hw.

    7. Re:This matters because... by raxx7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless the system has an I/O MMU, the hardware devices and any firmware they may be running have unrestricted access to RAM.
      I/O MMUs were almost exclusive to server chipsets until some time ago.
      Nowadays they are more common (spurred mostly by virtualization needs) but not totally universal yet. Intel likes to disable the feature in the K CPU models (which have unlocked frequency multipliers for better overclocking options).
      I don't keep track of the status of phone/tablet SoCs but if I had to hazzard a guess, I'd bet most of them don't have an I/O MMU.

    8. Re:This matters because... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What you say is bullshit. As someone who installed NetBSD in the 90s and have also used many different GNU/Linux versions in the past, my experience is simply that the opener a system is, the better. I've seen and had to fix countless problems with systems who have proprietary drivers and binary blobs. That just sucks. What is not open cannot be fixed by someone, and companies tend to not fix things properly.

      If you haven't made this experience, then must be exceptionally lucky or are about 8 years old. The opener the better. My 2 cents.

    9. Re:This matters because... by buckfeta2014 · · Score: 1

      Not every Intel K has it disabled, in fact, Haswell only has like two...

      --
      Buck Feta. You know what to do.
    10. Re:This matters because... by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      The binary blobs are themselves dangerous - driver software is typically running with very high security clearance, and you have absolutely NO idea what is going on inside those blobs.

      Well, on thing that might not be going on inside those blobs is "running on the CPU". The Intel download page for the firmware says of the GuC firmware:

      GuC is designed to perform graphics workload scheduling on the various graphics parallel engines. In this scheduling model, host software submits work through one of the 256 graphics doorbells and this invokes the scheduling operation on the appropriate graphics engine. Scheduling operations include determining which workload to run next, submitting a workload to a command streamer, pre-empting existing workloads running on an engine, monitoring progress and notifying host SW when work is done.

      and of the DMC firmware:

      DMC provides additional graphics low-power idle states. It provides capability to save and restore display registers across these low-power states independently from the OS/Kernel.

      The first of those sounds as if it runs on the graphics processor - the host submits work to the GPU, and it schedules the work to be done. The latter of those sounds as if it might run on the graphics processor as well, saving and restoring the display registers from within the GPU.

      So this might not be running in the driver at all; the driver might just be loading that firmware into the GPU.

    11. Re:This matters because... by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

      My experience is that the most reliable systems are closed source proprietary systems, because the development teams are well paid and well motivated. For example look at the systems used by wall street traders, hospitals, etc These systems are really really mission critical and are almost all closed-source software packages that come with extensive support and cost big money.

      But if you've never worked with large enterprise systems, you can be forgiven for your ignorance

    12. Re:This matters because... by Samizdata · · Score: 1

      I ran into something like that with one of my netbooks. I forget the exact Intel video chip set, but they had outsourced it to another company. Said company had no interest in either opensourcing the driver or Linux support beyond REALLY slow. They were so anti-opensource, Intel didn't even have the data from the company for them to create a Linux driver.

      --
      It's not the years, honey, it's the mileage. - Colonel Henry Walton Jones, Jr., Ph.D.
  6. Why this presumption that you need 3D acceleration by msobkow · · Score: 1

    I don't understand this presumption that you need 3D acceleration to have a usable desktop. There are plenty of older style cards that will work just fine with desktops that don't require 3D acceleration.

    You may want 3D acceleration and you may want to play games, but that isn't required for a "usable desktop."

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  7. So by Greyfox · · Score: 1

    Has anyone kickstarted a completely open source video card yet?

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure. I need 5 million backers paying $1000 each. Can you get that for me?

    2. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has anyone kickstarted a completely open source video card yet?

      Yes, I'm aware of at least one.
      https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/725991125/open-source-graphics-processor-gpu

      Unfortunately, no one wanted to fund an open GPU that was well behind the curve. :/

    3. Re:So by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no need for such money. If you want an open-source card, do an old design like "plain framebuffer" or "VGA-compatible". Of course, you won't be running anything 3D on that - but you could to word processing & coding.

    4. Re:So by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Graphics_Project. My recollection is they eventually put out an overpriced, underperforming card, and in the following 5 years progress has passed them by.

      I think that the work required to make a competitive GPU company would cost far beyond $1e9, and just isn't going to happen until several years after semiconductor technology becomes stagnant, if ever.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  8. The good, the bad, the ugly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Unfortunately we're seeing a wave of new hardware that is dependent on proprietary software, integrating digital restrictions, and undermining users security. That's really bad for everybody regardless of how you feel about the ethical side of the the issue. Without the code games can't be optimized and bugs can't be fixed. There will be those who argue you don't need the binary blobs- but the truth is we do need these pieces short of an all perfect bit of software. Sometimes even the all perfect bits need tweaking. ath9k-htc firmware is a perfect example of this. The firmware wasn't buggy- but some USB controllers that people were using these chips with were. Changing a single line of code enabled people to use these chips on computers they otherwise wouldn't be able to use them on.

    The good news is X86 is dead. The bad news is there is still a lot of work to do in order to introduce a truly free non-x86 computer and its unclear if there will be enough support from the community when the time comes to actually make it happen.

    There are many people on the internet paid to agitate and make things difficult for those actually making progress. If have an interest in keeping our systems free or making the more free I welcome your comments. Otherwise go away. Your not contributing anything useful to the conversation.

  9. Re: Intel is for luddites. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's some case of OCD fella.

  10. Looks like they just gavea reason for Broadwell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like Broadwell might be the last x86 cpu I buy (2nd hand of course).

    By the time I need to replace it AMD will be gone and ARM should have taken over a good segment of the population, so Intel can smell me later.

  11. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Informative

    That would be because any modern operating system (including most linux distros) uses 3D acceleration on a graphics card to put windows on a screen.

  12. Move To France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Be a conehead. Use that telex machine thing. Be a pepper. Go for it. Be all you can be. Aim high. Jump in a lake. Just not a skylake. Partake of toe jam and jelly not found in any store. Worship his holiness.

  13. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by msobkow · · Score: 0

    If you can run a given desktop with an SVGA driver, then you do not "require" 3D acceleration to use it.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  14. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > If you can run a given desktop with an SVGA driver, then you do not "require" 3D acceleration to use it.

    Your dictionary pedantry adds no value and in fact obscures the issue. You should feel no pride in subtracting from the convseration instead of adding to it.

  15. Artificial hardware vs software distinction by iamacat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If the same blob was included in chip's ROM, nobody would think it's different from before right? The only difference here is that Intel is saving some money by not having a flashable ROM in the chip and instead having host OS provide the same blob on each boot. It's not like Windows driver gets a better blob or accesses some secret features not given to Linux developers.

    If you are interested in open source hardware this is not in. But open sourcing all code running on main CPU is a significant step in itself and has many practical advantages (like being able to run/write whatever OS you want).

    If community has done more with existing open hardware contributions like OpenSparc, I think we would see many new ones.

    1. Re:Artificial hardware vs software distinction by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      The only difference here is that Intel is saving some money by not having a flashable ROM in the chip and instead having host OS provide the same blob on each boot.

      With the new approach, it looks easier to fold malwares in unexpected places

  16. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by raxx7 · · Score: 1

    For such a short post, you've got plenty of wrong things.

    You assume that this is only about 3D.
    Now I don't know about Intel's plans but with the open source driver without the firmware blob, I can't even get my AMD card to work at more than 800x600.
    No mode settings (screen resolution), no power management, no video decoding, no accelerated anything: neither 3D nor 2D.
    Without the firmware blob, it's just an expensive power hungry 800x600 dumb frame buffer.

    And there are _not_ plenty of cards out there.
    Intel, NVIDIA, AMD (and Matrox) are the only choices if you want to buy new hardware. With Matrox not being present in the laptop market.
    Intel was the last of the these which did not require a firmware blob.

  17. Only kinda sorta by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Intel's latest gen APU hangs with AMDs, but it's also almost twice the price, and that's before you factor in that the AMD board is cheaper and they tend to have better combos on Newegg. I can get a 7850k with a good board and 8 gigs of ram for $236 bucks. The equivalent i5 setup is going to be $450.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Only kinda sorta by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      I can get a 7850k with a good board and 8 gigs of ram for $236 bucks. The equivalent i5 setup is going to be $450.

      $450? Hahaha. No. For 285 bucks you can get an i5-4460, and ASRock B85M-HDS mobo and 8GB of RAM from Newegg.

    2. Re:Only kinda sorta by Desler · · Score: 1

      You must have purposefully picked some expensive i5 CPU and expensive mobo to hit that price. You can get an i7-4770, an ASUS Z87-A and 8 GB of RAM for just under $450.

    3. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For some reason AMD fanbois always tend to choose the most expensive Intel CPU and compatible mobos in order to try to overinflate the difference between two companies. When in reality you can get an equivalent Intel-based system for at worst maybe 10-15% more not the ridiculous 2x claims they try to make.

    4. Re:Only kinda sorta by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 0

      The equivalent i5 setup is going to be $450.

      Just to point out even more how this is false, Newegg has a combo of the most expensive i5 CPU that they sell that has the CPU, mobo and 8 GB of RAM and it is still just under $400. As I expected, you were basically either making up that price or you purposefully tried to pick expensive parts while using a Newegg combo for the price you got for the 7850k. And that i5 CPU in that combo is way faster than the 7850k.

    5. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You guys are all missing the point. We all know Intel CPU is faster than AMD CPU, and that AMD has had better day.

      AMD's APUs have to date had faster graphics and Intel's integrated graphics have lagged behind. The grandparent points out that the brand new i5-5675c narrows that gap or exceeds AMD integrated graphics performance.

      Just the i5-5675c is going to go for $276 in quantity initially. Predictably, like any rational vendor, Intel is going to charge for the privilege of using this new silicon with good integrated graphics for awhile. So the equivalent i5 setup is indeed going to be more than the 7850k setup with RAM that costs the grandparent $236.

    6. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, he did. He picked the i5-5675c, just released at an OEM price of $276. Which is the part that actually outruns the AMD APU integrated graphics.

      The i7-4770 is nice and a much faster CPU, but the integrated graphics (Intel 4600) will not outperform AMD APU.

    7. Re:Only kinda sorta by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, it doesn't "hang with" AMD's latest APUs, it's about 40% faster in terms of graphics performance and roughly 100-200% faster in terms of CPU performance, all while consuming roughly half the power.

      If that's not worth twice the price, I don't know what is.

    8. Re:Only kinda sorta by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      There's a $230 or so combo for the 4460 and mobo.

    9. Re:Only kinda sorta by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      They said "equivalent" not "outperform". You've added some sort of qualifier that the original person didn't to try to inflate the price.

    10. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AMD:
      AMD A10-7850K, 170$CAD
      GIGABYTE GA-F2A68HM-H, 59$CAD
      8GB DDR3 1600 (2x4GB), 70$CAD
      Total: 299$CAD

      Intel:
      Intel Core i5-4460, 220$CAD
      ASRock B85M, 85$CAD (the HDS is listed as possibly discontinued).
      8GB DDR3 1600 (2x4GB), 70$CAD
      Total: 375$CAD

      Two thirds of the difference in price you cited is the i5-4460 vs the 7850K. There is no comparison between these CPUs in non-graphics performance, as the i5-4460 whips the 7850K, repeatedly. The remainder is CAD26, which is not nothing, but not a game changer like the OP's fantasy numbers.

    11. Re:Only kinda sorta by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Uh... that doesn't have the Iris Pro GPU you dope.

    12. Re:Only kinda sorta by Narishma · · Score: 1

      He's talking about the latest i5 with Iris Pro GPUs that came out this week. The older ones aren't competitive with AMD's APUs in terms of integrated graphics performance.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
    13. Re:Only kinda sorta by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      rsilvergun picked the 7850k, Lunix Nutcase picked the i5-4460. I simply checked the prices on NewEgg.ca

    14. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the 4460 uses the HD4600 graphics, NOT the precious Iris Pro that is being mentioned here that can actually manage to beat AMD's APUs.

    15. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intel couldn't reach "equivalent" until Iris Pro, which outperforms. So once again, Intel doesn't provide an equivalent part and you must pay an inflated price to get more than you might want. That's life.

    16. Re:Only kinda sorta by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      and then you'll be wondering why it's not playing the games it was supposed to and then you notice it doesn't have the gpu you thought it had.

      intel gpu's have always been two years+ old performance and they've been saying it'll be comparable to low end amd/nvidia gpu's "next year" for about 15 years. that's not a joke. the same fucking marketing promises were made about the 950 etc..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    17. Re:Only kinda sorta by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      If you work in the technology industry, there's a really good chance the price gap is not a major headache to you. For the 80% of the American population that has an income half of ours or less, it's a big deal. And for example I have four kids who frequently fight over access to the house computers. The difference between $300 and $450 (or whatever the hell the difference is for this Intel chip with APU-crushing integrated graphics) adds up when you're buying multiple machines.

    18. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have to justify being blind cheapskates somehow.

    19. Re:Only kinda sorta by phorm · · Score: 1

      Do you have anything to cite on those stats?

    20. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can get the 3.5 Ghz i5 for $5 more...

    21. Re:Only kinda sorta by vilanye · · Score: 1

      Does anyone who actually needs graphics performance use the integrated graphics in any CPU?

    22. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's talking about the latest i5 with Iris Pro GPUs that came out this week. The older ones aren't competitive with AMD's APUs in terms of integrated graphics performance.

      Except it isn't just about GPU performance. Benchmarks only get you so far, but an Intel Pentium CPU (Dual Core (don't even think it's hyper threaded) with Integrated HD Graphics - not even Iris) from around 2012 could play just about any game better than my Quad Core (higher clocked - though that's hard to compare directly) AMD A-10 APU, despite every benchmarks saying the AMD was better for gaming. Silly me, I believed them.

      They forgot to mention, that even the lower end Intel CPUs are on par or better than what was some of the best Notebook APUs AMD had out back then - which were simply no match for even higher end i3's never mind i5 or i7. You see the A-10 was comparable to a low end i3 in CPU performance, theoretically, but I don't even think it's that good. It can't even reliably play 60FPS 1080p HD Video, while that lowly Pentium blows through that stuff. His notebook still costed 1/2 the price of mine. It had a Platter Hard Drive while I upgraded mine to a fast Intel SSD. He had half the RAM mind had (has since upgraded). But in every game, he was getting like 10 FPS more than me just based on his better CPU performance, and some games were playable on that cheap laptop while they were clearly unplayable on my more expensive laptop. We're talking about a clear average 10+ FPS advantage in favor of the Intel laptop.

      Which is why I will never buy a Notebook with an AMD APU in it, and instead go for an Intel CPU even if it's a lower end model, because Intel has that much of a lead in CPUs. With their GPUs getting so good, it's a no brainer. As a fairly casual gamer, you get better performance with Intel, and your machine doesn't become worthless nearly as quickly as with AMD.

      AMD is nice if you want to buy/build a gaming rig (Desktop) and will put one of their higher end CPUs in it and pair it with a discrete GPU. I cannot recommend anyone buy a Notebook or All-In-One with an AMD APU if they just want to do casual gaming. The performance level is not not there and it's not worth sacrificing that much performance to save $100-200. You're better off just waiting a bit longer while you save up the extra cash and go Intel, instead (something many people seem to be ignorant of... you can WAIT and SAVE UP a bit more cash and get a better performing machine, you don't have to buy it NOW, Lol).

    23. Re:Only kinda sorta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You guys are all missing the point. We all know Intel CPU is faster than AMD CPU, and that AMD has had better day.

      AMD's APUs have to date had faster graphics and Intel's integrated graphics have lagged behind. The grandparent points out that the brand new i5-5675c narrows that gap or exceeds AMD integrated graphics performance.

      Just the i5-5675c is going to go for $276 in quantity initially. Predictably, like any rational vendor, Intel is going to charge for the privilege of using this new silicon with good integrated graphics for awhile. So the equivalent i5 setup is indeed going to be more than the 7850k setup with RAM that costs the grandparent $236.

      The problem is that in most cases, the GPU is not the bottleneck when it comes to performance, the CPU is. So while it was okay for Intel to lag behind AMD in GPU performance until they got it right, AMD being so far behind in CPU performance has really given them a bad reputation.

      Everyone knew AMD had better Integrated GPUs than Intel, but no one could tell because overtime they tried to play a game on it it ran worse than it did on the Intel box due to Intel's superior processors.

      It's why you often get better gaming performance on dirt cheap Intel Laptops than on upper mid range AMD Laptops. Their CPUs are poor, and there's only so much you can make up for that with a better GPU.

  18. "forbid any reverse-engineering" by GNious · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "These firmware files are explicitly closed-source licensed and forbid any reverse-engineering."

    Forbidding any reverse-engineering? I guess Intel will not be released this in Europe then.

    1. Re:"forbid any reverse-engineering" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess that the blob will never be part of the guts of an LGPL licensed piece either.

    2. Re:"forbid any reverse-engineering" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't need to be released in Europe. I can import one for my personal reverse engineering fun and profit.

    3. Re:"forbid any reverse-engineering" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? It just means that restriction will have no legal weight in Europe.

      Assuming you are an adult, if your parents forbid you from going out and getting drunk there are no legal repercussions from doing so.

      Intel can forbid whatever the hell they like, but they can't necessarily enforce it.

  19. 5M backers @ $1000 each? Maybe by davidwr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe, but you'll have to have an awfully attractive proposal and back it with heavyweight talent that already had a good reputation for delivering the goods.

    For example, if a major video card vendor went belly-up for reasons not related to their tech (i.e. for plain old poor business practices) and their best coders banded together and started a kickstarter with a goal of $5B above and beyond the $1B they were personally tossing into the pot, they'd get my attention. But then again, they probably would be looking for traditional venture capital funding rather than kickstarter-type funding.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  20. Why do people even care about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If it weren't for the fact that these binary blobs are updateable, no one would care. For example, your hard disk certainly has a "binary blob" in the form of its firmware, but because the OS isn't able to update it, no one cares and happily ignores it. However, the moment someone releases a hard drive where the OS can supply the binary blob so that the hard disk firmware is easily updated, the open source community will immediately reject this new device even though the only difference between it and the old device is that the old one, in the event of a firmware bug, could not be updated and simply remained unreliable for the lifetime of the device.

    Indeed, that's probably what is happening here. Intel likely had such code in their cards all along, but previously the code was in a non-reprogrammable ROM. Now they've decided to add a new feature to their cards to allow bugs that are discovered in this code to be corrected, and everyone is simply going to complain about it. They were happy when no one could access the code and fix the bugs, but now that Intel can do it, they're not willing to accept not being able to do it themselves as well.

    It's rather silly. Just imagine if the card could accept a binary blob, but refused it if it didn't match cryptographic checksums in the hardware that cannot be updated. It would be effectively the same as if the firmware were stored in a ROM in the hardware itself in that no one would ever be able to modify that code, but you can still bet that the open source community would be up in arms over not having access to the source code simply becase, whenever they can touch binary code, they're unable to accept the fact that they don't have the source to that binary code.

    1. Re:Why do people even care about this? by Svartalf · · Score: 1

      So long as I'm using the blob and the device using it can still function in perpetuity, meaning that it's effectively firmware for the hardware and I can copy it ad-infinitum and expect each generation of the driver and code associated with the device to work with THAT particular blob, I'm am "fine" with it.

      It's still a problem, but it's so minor compared to closed drivers, etc., that I too question it being that much.  Needs to be noted.  Needs to have people aware of it.  Then we move on.  I'd love to have fully open HARDWARE as well as software, but that's not always the case, now is it?

      --
      I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    2. Re:Why do people even care about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Posting as AC since I'm under NDA.

      Why is this any different than older Intel Gfx?

      Since forever, you have had a VGA BIOS as a binary blob for the integrated graphics included in your motherboard's BIOS. There is a pretty strong possibility that the VGA BIOS for Broadwell and earlier has this same microcode blob included in it. The only difference is that breaking it out and making it part of the driver package makes it more easy to update. Updating the VGA BIOS requires a BIOS update, which needs to be compiled and distributed by the OEM that made your computer. This enables updates to come from Intel directly, which is going to get you bug fixes and Gfx performance improvements faster than before.

      The only real difference is the blob is now more visible.

    3. Re:Why do people even care about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry to tell you that the firmware in your hard disk is in fact upgradeable from the OS (how do you think it is updated otherwise?). Yes, I have done hard disk firmware upgrades. :)

  21. You pass the Turning Test Re:Move To France by davidwr · · Score: 1

    I can't tell if this was written by a computer or a person smoking something while reminiscing about pop-culture references from the past few decades.

    If you are a person, what are you smoking and where can I get some?

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:You pass the Turning Test Re:Move To France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are efforts which have been under way for a few years now to design a free software friendly laptop from the ground up by people within the community. It's getting close to being finished and ready to promote as a solution to the X86 proprietary bit problem. The first version will not require any non-free bits, but there also won't be 3D accelerated graphics. At least not without a non-free bit. This sounds like a problem, but only a small one. The laptop will be upgradable to a newer generation via a card hosting the CPU/graphics/memory that can support 3D acceleration using 100% free drivers/firmware. While there is a problem with current non-x86 3d chips thats changing. Also some issues regarding Allwinner not releasing code have been resolved. Th situation wasn't what the community thought and someone has gotten to the bottom of it within Allwinner.

      As far as x86 being dead it's not a matter of smoking anything. It's a matter of non-x86 solutions getting more powerful, being cost competitive, and a marketing being flooded with non-x86 devices. Everything from Chromebooks to tablets. Neither of which are a good solution right, but none-the-less, that's coming. There are lots of distributions supporting the non-x86 market today.

      There is also an issue with 802.11ac wifi. Fortunately there are companies stockpiling 802.11n chips specifically for the free software and GNU/Linux community so we should be good for a few years. You can even get 802.11n M.2 wifi chips now. ThinkPenguin's made those readily available in Europe and the United States, and pretty much any 1st world country as well with a decent postal system.

      Hopefully all this gives us enough time to come up with a solution to the problems at hand. There are potentially solutions to the 802.11ac issue if all else fails- but they aren't the most desirable. Design, implementation, and manufacturing costs, and the like.

    2. Re:You pass the Turning Test Re:Move To France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also some issues regarding Allwinner not releasing code have been resolved.

      Ah, so they've cleared up all of these GPL violations? Otherwise, they aren't going to see a penny from me. I've been specifically avoiding SBCs based around Allwinner chips, and will continue to do so because I don't consider the company ethical.

  22. Hardware = Binary Blob too, so where's the prob? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Beta dribblers created the SYNTHETIC concern about so-called 'binary blobs' (or what Alphas call "drivers that work properly and efficiently"). It is a NON-ISSUE, especially when you remember that such software 'binary blobs' run of HARDWARE 'binary blobs'- hardware that contains the DIRECT MATHEMATICAL EQUIVALENT to software.

    Intel has been building NSA back-doors into its chips for years, and YES, in theory, if their hardware were 'open' there might be a chance of someone discovering the extent of the compromise. BUT open-source projects across time have suffered the scandal time and time again of having malicious code buried within for YEARS without discovery. Open source notably does not fix this issue.

    A software binary blob is considered by every Alpha as merely extending the proprietary CLOSED SOURCE hardware on which the software runs, and is thus of no issue at all. Intel has reached the point where it needs to extend BY LAW DRM functionality already present in the hardware, and also wishes its rapidly improving integrated graphics to at least compete with AMD and Nvidia. It no longer has an incentive to provide SH*TTY drivers in order to please beta dribblers.

    Idealism, far from being an 'ideal' pursuit, is broken BY DESIGN- which is why it is always sold to Betas by people creating anything BUT an ideal society. Decent, rational PRAGMATISM is the best hope in any situation, which means UNDERSTANDING the compromises, and ensuring they do not go too far.

  23. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Your dictionary pedantry adds no value and in fact obscures the issue.

    Well said. Being right is never a substitute for feeling righteous.

  24. #TRANSLATIONFAIL# Re:mod 30wn by davidwr · · Score: 4, Funny

    You have exceeded the limits of my universal translator, and that's even after I installed the Yodaspeak and Tamarian-metaphor-interpretation modules (side-note: the latter is huge, it has to incorporate the entirety of the Tamarian race).

    Then translator did make this out though:

    "Mod parent post down"

    "#UNCLEARCONTEXT# Operating System"

    "#UNCLEARMEANING# Possible reference to poster making many recent repeated arguments related to either the current topic of discussion, BSDI, or both, and a possible relationship between the current topic of discussion and BSDI"

    "#SPECULATIONCONTINGENTONPREVIOUSUNCLEARTRANSLATION# Possible insult related to the possible many recent repeated arguments mentioned above"

    If you will kindly let me know what additional modules I need to install in my universal translator, I will be able to understand you better. Thank you.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:#TRANSLATIONFAIL# Re:mod 30wn by Guy+Harris · · Score: 1

      If you will kindly let me know what additional modules I need to install in my universal translator, I will be able to understand you better. Thank you.

      The Markovian module (although, by comparison to Mr. Shaney's posts, that was, well, rather broken Markovian; perhaps it was published by the Dissociated Press).

  25. Open Source GPUs by Theovon · · Score: 4, Informative

    An open source GPU: https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor
    And its wiki: https://github.com/jbush001/NyuziProcessor/wiki
    And even some peer-review: http://www.cs.binghamton.edu/~millerti/nyami-ispass2015.pdf

    We could have fixed this problem a decade ago if the FOSS community had gotten behind the Open Graphics Project, but they're not as interested in FOSS-friendly graphics as they say they are. This is because most FOSS enthusiasts are more interested in gratis than they are in freedom.

    1. Re:Open Source GPUs by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Or maybe it's because building an open source GPU that is even remotely competitive is nearly impossible. Spinning your own silicon is very expensive and requires a lot of resources, like expensive closed source software. FPGAs and the like are not powerful enough. Even if you find a way to do it, the amount of research required to build something that even implements enough of OpenGL 2 in hardware to give half decent performance would prevent anything useful ever being released.

      It's the same reason why you don't see competitive open CPUs being used. The ones that exist are niche devices. It's not s lack of interest, it's the fact that it's impractical to develop one as an open source project.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  26. I've personally fixed bugs by Chirs · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I did kernel hacking for 10 years. I've fixed bugs in Ethernet drivers and helped document (and work around) hardware errata. I've also had to deal with trying to rebuild Nvidia drivers when the binary blob was no longer compatible with the latest kernel source. Having open-source drivers is key for those of us that actually *do* work on this stuff.

    1. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same here, though for me, it was ATA and USB HID devices. As a programmer, nothing annoys me more than running into bugs and thinking, "I could fix this in two minutes if I had the source," and not being able to fix it because I don't. I've fixed bugs in many other people's code on many occasions simply because they annoyed me.

      With that said, I've never seriously entertained touching a GPU driver; I think that might very well be the special hell that Captain Reynolds was talking about. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    2. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I did kernel hacking for 10 years. I've fixed bugs in Ethernet drivers and helped document (and work around) hardware errata. I've also had to deal with trying to rebuild Nvidia drivers when the binary blob was no longer compatible with the latest kernel source. Having open-source drivers is key for those of us that actually *do* work on this stuff.

      With each passing day the command-line (mostly) and webapps (for certain use cases) seem more beneficial. If companies choose to release closed source binary firmware instead of open source source code, they shall ultimately become irrelevant once again. I still remember when Hercules was the standard.

    3. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by Smallpond · · Score: 1

      I did kernel hacking for 10 years. I've fixed bugs in Ethernet drivers and helped document (and work around) hardware errata. I've also had to deal with trying to rebuild Nvidia drivers when the binary blob was no longer compatible with the latest kernel source. Having open-source drivers is key for those of us that actually *do* work on this stuff.

      This is different. nVidia drivers run on the CPU, so a change to the OS makes them, and your hardware, not work. This is firmware that runs on the graphics chip. When I want to run a totally different OS running on an ARM CPu, say, the blob will still work.

    4. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      As a programmer, nothing annoys me more than running into bugs and thinking, "I could fix this in two minutes if I had the source," and not being able to fix it because I don't.

      That's actually why the entire Free Software movement exists: RMS was pissed that he couldn't fix his printer driver because it was closed-source.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    5. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by FranTaylor · · Score: 2

      RMS was pissed that he couldn't fix his printer driver because it was closed-source.

      He wasn't pissed because he couldn't fix the printer driver, he was pissed because Xerox wouldn't fix it. If Xerox had accepted his bug report and fixed the bug, he wouldn't have gotten mad in the first place.

    6. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I've hacked on GPU drivers. These days the command submission part is pretty simple, most of the driver is the compiler that generates optimised code for a processor that's highly optimised for a fairly narrow set of workloads. The firmware, on the other hand, is an entirely different thing. This is closer to CPU microcode than a driver. It's likely written to a one-off architecture and is likely to be completely rewritten for the next revision.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:I've personally fixed bugs by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      That actually doesn't sound too horrible, but then again, I enjoy writing parsers, so take that with a grain of salt... or an entire salt truck.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  27. So, intel 3D graphics tech finally got good enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was wondering how long it would take for intel to develop a 3D graphics team to compete with nvidia, and AMD. The ATI & AMD merger was back in 2006? Now, intel feels their 3D tech is good enough for commercial use, be worth copying, and tell the niche open source world to piss off. Interesting that the number of 3D tech companies has gone up. There's ATI/AMD, nvidia, intel, imagination tech/MIPS, ARM/Mali. I wonder how much longer nvidia will hold out alone.

  28. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    I thought that people were using Linux to get rid of windows? /duck

  29. ARM, here's a moment to shine .. by dotron · · Score: 1

    With the increase of low-power devices moving towards desktop usage, and ARM already have opened up their GPUs, albeit under specific license, it looks like a clear path for Open Source today.

    1. Re: ARM, here's a moment to shine .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure what ARM core based products you are compiling kernels for, but I'm dealing with five different A7 and A9 chipsets right now and all of them have blobs for GPU. Many have blobs for the entire multimedia feature set to include cameras as well.

    2. Re:ARM, here's a moment to shine .. by Narishma · · Score: 1

      Don't hold your breath. ARM is just as hostile to open source as the other GPU vendors.

      --
      Mada mada dane.
  30. Mandate open firmware, awesome idea. by jovetoo · · Score: 1

    Yes. Mandating open firmware, awesome idea. Because we want to need X different compilers compiling code for Y different cpus/mcus running Z basic OSses just to compile our kernel and use our hardware. It will make our lives so much better. Why not just mandate that those embedded cpus must run Linux themselves?

    Perhaps it makes sense to differentiate between binary drivers for Linux (bad) and binary blobs running on the embedded hardware taking to opensource drivers (ok)?

  31. No OpenBSD graphics drivers then? by AbrasiveCat · · Score: 1

    OpenBSD has been pretty strict about using including binary blobs in their distributions. I would think this requirement by Intel would leave Open out. Sigh..

    1. Re:No OpenBSD graphics drivers then? by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of drivers in all "free" operating systems that are pretty much "binary blobs" for example the drivers for raid cards. they were written using a NDA documentation. joe blow does not have access to these documents (including errata) and has no ability to make any changes to the driver without potentially introducing terrible bugs.

      So whine all you want about "free software", the simple fact is that every "free" operating system is full of this type of unmaintainable "blob" code.

      Tell me are they strict about running on computers that are stuffed full of binary blobs at the factory? what about the firmware on your video cards? the firmware on your ethernet cards? it's all 100 % closed source and it all has hardware-level access to your data so it's just as untrustworthy as a binary blob you downloaded from Intel.

  32. Okay, a really, really silly question - by Bookwyrm · · Score: 1

    Has anyone found out *why* Intel is doing this?

    What springs to mind maybe they're using code from a third party (i.e. video codecs, HDMI/DRM management, etc.) and *that* third party is not open source (for whatever definition of 'open' you prefer.)

    If, (let me stress again, if) that's the case, then providing Intel with an open source solution that works better *might* resolve the issue.

    1. Re:Okay, a really, really silly question - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it would be very unlikely that Intel includes externally licensed code in ther product without thinking very hard about the consequences.

    2. Re:Okay, a really, really silly question - by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      3-D hardware developers are very jealous of their high-paying jobs and they want to keep the "secret sauce" to themselves so they can maintain their stranglehold on the market. They will only allow their code to be released in binary form.

  33. This might be an improvement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What did the previous versions do? Was the equivalent code baked into the hardware? It seems to me that the change here is to a runtime loaded secret firmware instead of factory loaded. If that is the case (and it might not be), then this seems slightly more open really. Remember: this is firmware: there are lots of places fully out of end user control you can put it, but they opted to let you have control over loading it. It would be much better if they released the source for it, and their custom compilation tool chain used to produce it (I bet its not compile anything like normal c kernel code) and the source for that tool chain, but there is no way they want to support third parties trying to use their tools, much less hand all their firmware tooling and the source of that over to the competition. The prohibition on reverse engineering is kinda nasty though, but at least you have access to it where you didn't before.

    And really, at least they provided them in a way we can use. That much better than some companies who do the same thing, and then prevent you from actually using their hardware due to the issue.

    So I'm not going to hate Intel for this. I already hate them for lots of things, but I need some more details before deciding if this new offense is worthy of my of reasons to hate intel list.

  34. Support Open ISA for CPU and GPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The solution to this is to make an open source counterpart.

    There is already work under way to create counterparts to CPU-ISA's:
    http://opencores.org/or1k/Main_Page

    http://riscv.org/

    And there is also already work under way to create counterparts to GPU-ISA's:
    http://hackaday.com/2014/08/19/open-source-gpu-released/
    http://gplgpu.com/

    MIAOW: An Open-Source GPU Design Based On AMD's Southern Islands
    http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTgyNTE
    https://github.com/VerticalResearchGroup/miaow

    The OpenGPU Project
    http://opengpu.net/EN/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=144&Itemid=132
    http://opengpu.net/EN/index.php

  35. As if you will be allowed to do that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Manufacturers are eyeing changing the blob when there are problems, mistakes in the blob, this will happen.

    Not to mention in the near future manufacturers want to sell you everything as a service, a limited renting time would be mightily appealing to encode in the blob.

  36. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by beelsebob · · Score: 2

    Being technically correct is never a substitute for understanding that you're completely wrong when applied to the pragmatic normal solution.

  37. Reverse engeneering.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't forbid what is in the law.

  38. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by olterman · · Score: 1

    It might be an API thing. Drivers will switch to 3D API support, making 2D even slower (and less tested?) than it used to be (i.e. "emulated"). There used to be 2D cards for desktop, I don't know what the support is now, less what it will be in the future. Not "unusable desktop" for 2D cards but stuff such as Gnome 2 will be better for older HW.

  39. Re:5M backers @ $1000 each? Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This sounds like an outstanding reason to help a major vendor go belly up.

  40. see what happens with intel when AMD is out of the by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    see what happens with intel when AMD is out of the way they jack up prices and cut back on stuff first's cutting back on pci-e lanes in $350-$400 cpus now open source what is next locked boot loaders? What to boot linux you need to buy a $250+ (1 cpu) $400-$600 (2 cpu) server boards or the top of line $300-500 gamer boards

  41. Highly-selective zealot outrage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The opposition to "binary blobs" has long been used against Nvidia video cards and some network adapters, but it has always been a bit of a joke. The people foaming at the mouth over blobs have happily confused two entirely separate issues, probably for their own ideological reasons.

    Sufficiently complex systems involve trade-offs between hardware and code; a WiFi vendor could, for example, make different chips for different parts of the world hard-wired for the locally-mandated frequencies, OR make one chip that can be programmed with microcode in a blob to meet local regulations. Another example is the programmable logic in so may systems; manufacturers can make a single PCB that can support different options and system configurations based on a different fuse pattern load - a binary blob whose differences from a microcode binary blob are insignificant. By making one chip or PCB and shipping these blobs, we all benefit from more-optimized mass-production, better quality, and lower prices. Many of the machines we all use contain such blobs but often where most people are not looking - like in patterns programmed into FPGAs and CPLDs, or updates loaded into CPUs to patch their microcode. Why scream about such blobs when the alternative would be a hard-wired chip that could be every bit as malicious or buggy?

    I get the complaints about binary blobs that execute on the CPU at runtime along with the OS and apps and which may even link to the kernel in some manner, but a blob that is guaranteed to have been created by the designer of the hardware and will be uploaded into a device that is thus configured to serve as a peripheral is no less deserving of trust than it would have been had the designer simply burned those bits into a device at the factory. Until I see open-source purists screaming over the bits (whose source they cannot see and change) in the microcode of a CPU and the FPGAs in their systems, and for that matter whining about the fact that they cannot see-and-change the source schematics for all the ICs (given that these in many instances are doing things that could have been implemented with simpler hardware plus code) in their systems, I simply cannot get all worked-up over the blobs video chip vendors provide which must be uploaded onto their chips.

     

  42. Right, but that's apples and oranges by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    the i5-4460 can't hang with AMD on GPU performance. So you'll have to plunk down $100 bucks to close that gap. 4690k does much better, but it's also much pricier. Also the ASRock is kinda garbage, and you'll take a big performance hit for basing your machine around that. For $236 I get a good quality Asus mobo for a 7850k. Now, your 4460 absolutely spanks the 7850k as a cpu, but if you're counting your pennies it's a wide gulf...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Right, but that's apples and oranges by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I got the 4690 non-K for $230

      Hardly "much pricier"

  43. Damn you, Intel by russotto · · Score: 1

    Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

  44. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by msobkow · · Score: 1

    You can run the SVGA drivers with virtually any modern 3D card. If you're that paranoid about the BLOBs, you have an option. How is that "wrong"?

    It's not like Intel, AMD, or NVidia are going to start publishing the source code for their BLOBs just because you're paranoid about their contents.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  45. Open source has won... and then we lost by caseih · · Score: 1

    While I feel the outrage over this move is probably overblown, it does vindicate the fairly extreme positions in regards to free software held by Richard Stallman. Basically the watered down idea of free software, called "open source", has taken off and really win the world over. Even Microsoft is embracing open source. Everyone sees the benefits. The problem is that they see that it can benefit their existing proprietary models quite well. So for example Microsoft, while being more open to open source and interoperability is as proprietary and closed as ever before.

    Intel too has embraced open source and Linux, but the philosophy of free software is only embraced to the extent that it will help their business.

    In the end then open source software has both won and lost. It hasn't changed the corporate attitudes like some of the earlier visionaries wanted. I fear we're all the losers here. This move by Intel confirms that to me. In this modern post stallman world, open source is mostly a way to placate the masses. And it works well. And is quite profitable.

    1. Re:Open source has won... and then we lost by raxx7 · · Score: 1

      This isn't a step back for open source; it's just staying the same.

      Despite the great success of open source software, which I'm using to write this post, the underlying computers where this software runs have always been proprietary hardware implementations with some proprietary firmware blobs (eg, the BIOS) stored somewhere.

      The fact that some companies have moved from hardware to on-board firmware stored on EEPROMs to firmware which needs to be uploaded by the driver isn't a real change , as long as the license allows it to be freely redistributed.
      It is not an ideal situation; it would be better if this firmware was open source. But it's not anything new or different.

    2. Re:Open source has won... and then we lost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Even Microsoft is embracing open source. Everyone sees the benefits.

      Microsoft (and others) see the money. Nobody in the corporate world give s a crap about the benefits.

  46. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by beelsebob · · Score: 1

    You can run the SVGA drivers with virtually any modern 3D card. If you're that paranoid about the BLOBs, you have an option. How is that "wrong"?

    It's not - but it's not practical in the context of any modern operating system's demands from a graphics card.

  47. Nonvolatile memory on package by tepples · · Score: 1

    a WiFi vendor could, for example, make different chips for different parts of the world hard-wired for the locally-mandated frequencies, OR make one chip that can be programmed with microcode in a blob to meet local regulations.

    Third option: include a small block of PROM in the chip package to store the region-specific parameters.

    Another example is the programmable logic in so may systems; manufacturers can make a single PCB that can support different options and system configurations based on a different fuse pattern load - a binary blob whose differences from a microcode binary blob are insignificant.

    The differences are insignificant technically but significant politically. Microcode stored on a nonvolatile memory in the CPU or chipset will work with whatever operating system is loaded. Microcode stored in volatile RAM works only with operating systems whose publisher has licensed the microcode.

    1. Re:Nonvolatile memory on package by FranTaylor · · Score: 1

      what an awesome way to enable undetectable malware

  48. Which jurisdiction's law? by tepples · · Score: 1

    Anonymous Coward wrote:

    You can't forbid what is in the law.

    Which jurisdiction's law were you talking about? In the United States, there is no right to reverse engineer. In the European Union, there is no right to immigrate from the United States.

    1. Re:Which jurisdiction's law? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the US there is a law that prevents me from copying things, but not from reverse engineering them. If they paid me to sign the EULA it would be binding, but they didn't pay me. So fuck it.

  49. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

    It's perhaps not "wrong" for a certain restricted definition of "Useable", but it is for the "pragmatic normal solution". If you bought a graphics accelerator, it's almost certainly not because you wanted to be restricted to the VESA driver. If it was, you probably would've stuck with the hardware that you already had, which was also capable of running as VESA. The definition of "useable" that you're using basically excludes anything beyond text and static images. You're making a strawman argument. Your "solution" addresses a reduced problem, rather than the problem that the rest of us are trying to solve.

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  50. Re:Hardware = Binary Blob too, so where's the prob by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What the flying fuck is the "alpha" "beta" crap that you're talking about? You don't seem to be talking about the software development process. Nor do you seem to be making a reference to Brave New World, so I'm kind of at a loss. The nearest I can see is that you're using "beta" as a pejorative label for people who disagree with you and "alpha" as a laudatory label for those who agree with your position. Since the strength of your argument seems to rely on denigrating others, I've got to say: You aren't adding anything useful to the discussion.

  51. Back to Nvidia by DMJC · · Score: 1

    well, so much for that experiment. Back to NVIDIA. I'll take performance/closed blob over crap performance/closed blob.

  52. Upload and forget by aNonnyMouseCowered · · Score: 1

    "The binary blobs are themselves dangerous - driver software is typically running with very high security clearance, and you have absolutely NO idea what is going on inside those blobs."

    Then why not rewrite the (opensource) driver so the only thing it does is upload the binary blob to the graphics card? Then you're back to present behavior, a graphics card that runs closed-source microcode. Has anyone performed a security audit of any of today's top desktop CPUs?

    The idea solution would be nothing less than building your own openware CPU/GPU.

    1. Re:Upload and forget by Immerman · · Score: 1

      *If* the binary blobs are only executed on the GPU then that would seem reasonable to me. And I suppose that might be the case - it would save a few nickles worth of flash or ROM on the graphics chip, which could be relevant for budget-oriented GPUs. Usually though, when you hear of binary blobs in a driver, they're running *as part of the driver* - aka on the CPU, NOT the GPU.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  53. Binary Blobs? by Snufu · · Score: 1

    Yes, I tend to see things as black or white. And yes, I could use more exercise. But I'm working on it.

  54. Intel AMT/VPRO/VT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Intel AMT/VPRO/VT

    Hardware backdoor/spy (vnc server, remotely reenableable, also bus spy)

  55. F__k you, zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you have any idea how much it costs to license proprietary toolchains for embeddable microcontrollers and DSPs? The companies getting lambasted in the headline innovate on a competitive cadence, which necessitates using 3rd party IP. Everyone wants Moores law to keep enabling sweeter gaming experiences at cheaper prices but few seem willing to accept the necessity of embeddeding third party IP to enable that reality. If some billionaire out there wants to buy up Tensillica and their ilk and open source their IP we would all be thankful but until then shut up and deal with the realities of a free market economy.
     
    RMS can eat bowl of [redacted] for all I care.

  56. Critical distinction between HW & SW: user fre by jbn-o · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If the same blob was included in chip's ROM, nobody would think it's different from before right?

    Yes, we would think it's different because it is different. When the functionality of that blob is in a ROM chip or circuitry, nobody can update it, including the proprietor, without hardware modification or hardware replacement. When the functionality is in software or any kind of reprogrammable device, the question becomes who is allowed to run, inspect, share, and modify that code. This is an important ethical distinction that the developmental philosophy of the younger open source movement was designed to never raise as an issue because that movement wants to pitch a message of cheap labor to businesses.

    All the questions of software freedom enter the picture because you're dealing with software now. All the issues that the open source movement was designed not to raise (older essay on this topic, newer essay on this topic) the older free software movement raised over a decade before the open source movement began.

    If this code were distributed as Free Software to its users, this could be great news for all of us (even the majority of computer users who will never fully take advantage of these freedoms because they're never going to become programmers). Programmers can accomplish wonderful practical benefits like putting in interesting features, fixing bugs, learning from the code, all while being friendly with others by giving or selling services based on improving that code, and helping to keep users safe from malware all along the way.

    If this code is distributed as non-free user-subjugating software (a.k.a. proprietary software), the proprietor (Intel in this case) is the only party who can inspect, share, and modify that code. And users (regardless of technical ability) are purposefully left out of controlling their own computers, which is unethical.

  57. Oh no - not a "Forbidden Action"! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who CARES if they forbid reverse engineering? Do it anyway.

  58. You entirely miss the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ALL ones and zeros, whether they are CPU code, GPU code, FPGA fuse maps, microcode patches, or even the database of a circuit board layout are now merely the binary expressions of human-readable source code and the dividing lines between static logic, malleable logic, and executable code have blurred so severely as to be essentially irrelevent. I personally trade-off hard logic, programmable logic and software all the time in designs to meet cost/performance requirements. I do not care if it's C code or VHDL code.

    I find it amusing that there are people so myopic (or so willfully ignorant) that they think there is still a significant difference and get all upset about not having the source code for one binary blob but never even mention all the other blobs.

    Yes, malicious code could be in a blob intended to be executed by a GPU, but a binary blob loaded into an FPGA could just as easily contain a small micro and executable code and even implement an alternate NIC or other I/O device or even non-volatile memory to store stolen data for later harvesting etc

    The POINT is that if the blob is from the hardware manufacturer and is properly signed then you should trust it and upload it to the hardware. If you do not trust the particular vendor then you are an idiot to be using their hardware even without any binary blobs because they could easily have stored malicious bits in the device before they sold it to you. In fact, (and this will be unpopular in Linux-land) this is a good argument for some forms of binary signing and DRM... as we go forward it may only be safe to load DRM-protected encrypted and signed blobs.

    BTW: your PROM idea is dumb; It offers absolutely nothing while pretending to be an alternative. Why would you trust the vendor to burn the blob into a PROM but not trust the vendor when he gives you the very same blob and tells you you can upload it from Windows or Linux or BSD etc????

    The whole point of an uploadable blob is that it's pre-built and tested and can be uploaded to the hardware rather than being tightly-coupled to, or even actually being, code executing on your main CPU and probably as a component of a device driver tied to a specific version of a specific OS.

    1. Re:You entirely miss the point by tepples · · Score: 1

      Why would you trust the vendor to burn the blob into a PROM but not trust the vendor when he gives you the very same blob and tells you you can upload it from Windows or Linux or BSD etc????

      Because several hardware makers have refused permission to include the required blob on operating system install media and distribute the blob from the operating system's non-free driver repository.

  59. Where is the open source hardware mfgr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aren't we rapidly approaching the day when we can just 3D print our own motherboards, chips and all, and just use open source hardware with our open source software?

    Written on my iPhone 5S

  60. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 1

    Thought maybe he was Tamarian......

    --
    Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
  61. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by msobkow · · Score: 1

    The "pragmatic" solution would be to stop bitching that the BLOBs are proprietary and to just use what is made available to you.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  62. UEFI by FithisUX · · Score: 1

    I thought UEFI was about loading these blobs, not the OS.

  63. Re:Hardware = Binary Blob too, so where's the prob by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He seems to be 14 and/or very stoned, and defo very confused about where the part that's just inside his own head ends.

  64. I consider reverse engineering EULAs... by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

    I consider reverse engineering EULAs to be non-binding. As there are no considerations in such a contract nor does it have a reasonable duration for the contract or any option to cancel the contract. (at least most reverse engineering clauses I've read, there may be exceptions out there)

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:I consider reverse engineering EULAs... by ledow · · Score: 1

      Reverse-engineering is often allowed anyway if it's for the purposes of integration and compatibility.

      Hence Samba can happily reverse-engineer things, no matter what the Windows licence says. They can't TAKE CODE (i.e. you can have been tainted by seeing the Windows source) but reverse-engineering from a binary is another matter entirely.

      And just because a contract says something's not allowed, it doesn't mean anything unless a court agrees. 99.9% of the time, it would never even get that far. Yes, it's a pain. Yes, nobody wants the expense or the risk. But just because the Facebook EULA says you have to hand over your first-born does NOT make it legally binding, even if you provide to the court notarised proof that you specifically agreed to it for that exact clause alone.

      Contracts are the bottom of the pile when it comes to law. The rest of the law takes precedence over them.

  65. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

    A compositing display server saves a lot of CPU, by just doing the rendering and rasterisation of windows once and then alpha blending the resulting windows. You don't need to redraw for expose events, you just composite the results. This saves even having to bring the background applications into the cache (or into RAM if they're swapped out). Within an application, you can get the same benefit, caching the rendered results of (for example) a complex data-driven view and not having to do a load of queries of a model object because an overlapping view needs redrawing.

    The down side of this is that you end up doing a lot of compositing. Sure, you can do this on the CPU (and a modern CPU is fast enough to do it on the vector unit reasonably fast), but that consumes a lot more power than doing it on the GPU.

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
  66. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

    Since when are we setting the bar so low? We had a usable desktop two decades ago, if you're willing to just toss out modern features. We also had "usable cars" and "usable airplanes" fifty years ago, but I'll bet you'd prefer to fly cross-country in a modern Boeing 777 than an old turboprop, right?

    Incidentally, there's really no such thing as "3D acceleration", with the possible exception of support for geometry-specific functions on the more modern cards. Much of the power of modern GPUs is dedicated to drawing pixels (a purely 2D operation), with many tiny programmable processors running in parallel used to make it happen. All the "3D" stuff is simply a transformation from world space into screen space, and then that's where most of the work happens. Modern desktops rely on hardware acceleration for all sorts of things nowadays. You really don't want your CPU to be wasting it's time performing pixel blending operations, especially with today's large, high resolution screens, sometimes several of them per computer.

    Naturally, games are what drives the high end capabilities (some consider playing videogames part of being "usable", believe it for not), but many other applications benefit from ubiquitous video hardware acceleration. One example that comes to mind is medical imaging. A laptop that can visualize engineering plans is another potential application. Even web browsers benefit from hardware acceleration.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  67. seriously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this really even slashdot worthy? This is just more Linux people whining about how un-fair the world is. This is exactly why Linux will stay a hobbyist OS.

  68. Never Forget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A heap overflow in the nvidia binary blob driver was discovered in 2006, the advisory released with a poc.

    That vulnerability would allow someone to execute code as root simply by having a user view something otherwise innocuous that would allow definition of fonts, e.g. a website.

    http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1971

    1. Re: Never Forget by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course this doesn't mean something like that will happen again, but closing down source makes assessing security holes a bit more difficult.

  69. Re:Why this presumption that you need 3D accelerat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your "options" without using the binary blob are threefold:

    1. Don't buy any Intel iGPU hardware beyond the Broadwell generation. Eventually this strategy will fail, because your hardware will become obsolete or fail, and replacements will stop becoming available. Even if you buy the highest-end Broadwell iGPU, this iGPU will *quickly* be overcome by the forward-marching momentum of system requirements in every application sector that's in any way related to graphics. Even webpages are now requiring way more rendering horsepower than they did 5 years ago, with dynamic elements and canvases all over the place.

    2. Upgrade to a CPU beyond the Broadwell family, but don't use GPU hardware acceleration. The vast majority of modern desktop environments require some form of OpenGL. Running OpenGL on the CPU is ridiculously power-inefficient, slow, and leaves less headroom for other CPU-bound tasks, even if you use a heavily optimized software renderer like mesa llvmpipe. You could use a desktop environment that does not require any OpenGL, but then you are severely restricting your options. And your webpages will still render at a pathetic speed, severely degrading your user experience. Additionally, since the display controller code is in the blob, you will probably be limited to heinously low resolutions, and may not even be able to use certain types of display connector (e.g. HDMI).

    3. Use another vendor/supplier of graphics hardware that has open blobs. Currently, none exist that I am aware of -- at least, none that are fast enough to support even a basic OpenGL 2.1 desktop with texture_from_pixmap.

    Considering that there are very valid and reasonable concerns about what could be contained within firmware on the system -- bugs?, (unintentional) security vulnerabilities?, backdoors?, NSA? -- and that the experience is severely degraded and limited without the firmware, any reasonable person would conclude that you are NOT being reasonable by saying that the options of either (a) not using the blob and suffering the consequences or (b) using it and accepting the risks, are acceptable.

    I fundamentally disagree with the assertion that you can have a usable desktop without 3D acceleration, mainly due to the enormous performance gains and power savings of having your desktop backed by a GPU. On a laptop on battery power, CPU rasterization makes it almost useless, reducing the battery life by a huge margin.

    When there are no other options on the market for something, and all of the available offerings have firmware that provides a credible threat to privacy and security (plus the inability to fix any bugs that are encountered), it is NOT reasonable to say "take it or leave it".

    However, on a more personal level, I think most of the outrage about this issue is not that Intel has done this, but that *Intel* has done this. Intel has long been considered to be a friend to those looking for fully open systems free of firmware, especially in regards to their iGPUs. This "about-face" leaves that niche who consider the firmware blobs to be unconscionable with no other options, besides sticking with already-released products that will quickly become obsolete (optimistically, they might last you 10 years before it's high-time to replace them).

  70. Re:Hardware = Binary Blob too, so where's the prob by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, it's pretty cute that you contextualize this technical/philosophical computer-security debate into your apparently-psychologically-important "Alpha/Beta" dichotomy, but I wonder if you aren't actually getting at an interesting Core Idea -- the psychology of ineffectual complainers ("Betas", in your consummately immature formulation), versus those who recognize the shape of reality as a current fact, and combine A) working within reality and B) moderately altering reality in places to further their goals (your "Alphas").

    You're not necessarily right about Idealism across the board, though. Sometimes, it is a sincere effort by expert participants who perceive an Ideal Reality we have an obligation to strive for... but it needs to be leavened by pragmatism, as you note. Cognitively grasp your goals and don't needlessly reject valuable compromises as inherently evil.

  71. Decryption as consideration by tepples · · Score: 1

    They paid you by authorizing the decryption of the software from the installer package pursuant to 17 USC 1201(a).