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The Real Scars of Korean Gaming
An anonymous reader writes: Professional e-sports have been slowly but steadily gaining a following in the U.S. over the past couple of decades, but in South Korea, it's already arrived as a popular form of entertainment. An article at the BBC takes a look at the e-sports scene there, which is generating huge salaries for the top players, but also injuries and insular lifestyles. It's growing more similar to traditional pro sports all the time. From the article: "A scar, half an inch wide, stretched from just above the elbow and up over his shoulder. 'Our company paid for full medical expenses, so he had an operation,' explained his coach, Kang Doh Kyung. [He] is the best player in StarCraft and has won everything in this field and is still going strong.' Repetitive strain had injured Mr Lee's muscles, deforming them and making surgery the only option to save his illustrious career."
next up: all the gambling tricks.
How is it any less of a sport than, say, chasing a ball around on a field?
You certainly use your body, just not all of it, but mostly just your brain.
How does that make it not a sport? Oh, because sports is running around smashing into other big dudes and getting drain bamage instead of using your most powerful organ?
Okay. Whatever you say, champ.
Pulling a trigger is, throwing something a little bit is, hitting each other in the face is, walking is, going downhill on a plank is, ...
What the fuck isn't a sport nowadays and if it still takes a good amount of skill, why act as if its completely stupid? Its not like the cyclist has something to do at the end of the finish line, he is an idiot for spending so much energy getting there fast. Why is playing a skillful game not an acceptable sport? Because its digital and might require a little less muscle than some other sports?
The new United Fascist Front is not a child's game. It is real and it is here!
The thug underclasses which pollute our culture must be eradicated and reeducated. No more will the hard working subsidize the thug's murderous lifestyle. No more will moral society lend a hand to the thug.
The thugs of this country and the world will be steamrolled out of existence and out of their ashes a new Fascist state will emerge. Efficiency at the detriment of the thug, we will rise as the one world power.
Once in power, the one fascist party will set up reeducation camps around the country for the thug. They will be rounded up and put to use.
Those with the best hope will be properly reeducated as productive members of society. Those too indoctrinated into thug culture will be put to work and eventually liquified.
Our estimates state that we will be able to run our empire's power infrastructure for 30 years by anticipated undesirable thugs.
From Boston, New York, Los Angeles, to elsewhere the thug will be rounded up with no where to hide.
Join the cause join the fascists.
Society's advancement will stand on top of the bones of the weak.
Wolf Bearclaw Hitler II
Can Mr. Lee fly around the world delivering lectures on free software? He's allowed to be picky.
Pulling a trigger is now a sport?
Need to understand if "sport" involves physical exertion.
when i think of "sport" i think of athleticism. Swimming, baseball football
Competitive chess is a game not a sport IMO and video gaming would fall into the same category as chess.
not knocking the skill, just not sure sport is the right word
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
How is Linux more than of an operating system than, say, MS-DOS?
I think they call that flying a drone.
The only way this is "sports" is if one looks at the french word for leisure that the English word "sport" and "sports" as a form of outdoorsmanship or athleticism is based on. To my view, a degree of physical exertion outside of the realm of using a computer or video game system is necessary. Beyond that it's just gaming. Admittedly competitive gaming with a rather ridiculous degree of third-party interest, but still gaming, not sport.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
It not ENTERTAINING athleticism. Sports are just as much about spectacle as athleticism at the high levels. I dont like watching sports, or 'esports' but i love athleticism, and esports have none.
Good-bye
Adding to the list: racing, horse racing, falconry, and golf.
Depends on what that trigger is attached to and how that object is being used.
A trigger attached to a rifle for hunting, in some peoples definitions, is sport, or has been considered such. Some would exclude hunting but would allow for target shooting. The term sportsman is often applied.
Pulling the trigger attached to a pistol-grip soldering iron, or a reciprocating saw, or a drill doesn't count. Neither does pulling the trigger on a firearm in the commission of a felony.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Sports also involve accuracy and reactions. I also think of race car drivers as athletes due to the long mental focus and physical accuracy required (though the drivers prior to power steering and brakes were bigger athletes). On the other hand I don't consider it the same type of athleticism.
Like people who fly airplanes vs those who program UAVs. There are similarities and there are differences. Both do fly however.
It has been for a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylp2p0pipQo
They use the term esport to differentiate from traditional sports. Clearly it's what would be categorized as a competitive game, like poker, chess, and other competitive games, and not a sport, which historically differed from a competitive game via athleticism.
In that sense, would you consider bowling or golf sports? Certainly neither are what most would consider athletic. It's more or less a meaningless distinction, though.
Yeah brakes were such a huge game changer for auto racing.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
he meant power steering and power brakes. I knew what he was getting at.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
No. Competition does not equal sport: I've heard professional chess players do weight lifting, but chess and StarCraft competitions are not a sport. There isn't the mind-body involvement demanded by traditional sports.
How does clicking a mouse cause RSI? Besides, these injuries have been preventable since the 1980s. Such injuries say more about the stupidity of the e-competitors than the authenticity of the 'sport'.
Is this a case of a bad 'work' environment, the usual cause of RSI? A dedicated e-competitor should be using equipment like the Space mouse, dedicated to high-speed input.
Can Mr. Lee fly around the world delivering lectures on free software?
That depends on how long until a game's publisher makes the news for using copyright to stop "public performances" by a league that the publisher doesn't like. An article by Kyle Orland mentions that Nintendo has already shut down Smash Bros. tournaments, and Capcom routinely requires royalty payments to hold Street Fighter tournaments. Once more publishers adopt that practice, e-sports leagues may have to move to developing games for distribution under a free software license.
watching e-sports is just as boring as watching other sports - i fast-forward over it when watching Good Game just as i fast-forward over sports during the news. fortunately, GG only wastes a minute or two on it every few weeks, while the news wastes 10-20 minutes on it every night.
playing sport and video games can be fun. watching other people play is fucking tedious.
An opinion not shared by a huge number of people.
I don't know, look at Babe Ruth. If you saw a picture of him and didn't know who he was, would you think he's a baseball player, or someone who sits on his ass all day playing Counter-strike? If he's a sports hero, fuck it, Starcraft can be in the Olympics.
So Golf ain't no sport?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Then I took an arrow to the wrist.
Etymology of the word sport says it comes from disport, or 'leisure'. By that meaning, electronic gaming can be considered sport just like physical sports, but both lose claim to the term in professional setting, where the game is no longer leisure.
Another interpretation is that it comes from various words meaning 'competition' or 'struggle'. Those origins allow for 'professional sports' to not be a paradox, but in no way disallow e-sports, where the struggle is just as real as in physical sports.
This explains why e-sport jocks still make fun of nerds, like real jocks but without a coach to tell them what good sportsmanship is.
He still had a skill that translated into a physical activity though. He was able to hit a baseball probably best of anyone of his time.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
All of them at least require being outside (some sports like sumo or basketball are inside but make up for it by being physical).
I would not call these things sports, not even e-sports. They're gaming competitions, nothing more than that. There is some contention about whether or not chess is a sport, but everyone at least agrees it's not an athletic event. Playing music is not a sport, even though it for some instruments it takes more athleticism than golf. If any nerd ever deserved to get a wedgie, it would be those e-sports competitors who should be first in line.
As for his injury, if the medical expenses were all paid, then why does that scar look so bad that even a medical internist would be ashamed of it?
Bobby Fischer was on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 1972.
This seems like an almost reasonable definition until you encounter the millions of people who seem to insist that golf is a sport. Or bowling.
So is weightlifting, ping pong, darts, or golf a sport?
Bobsledding, target shooting, archery?
Rubiks cube?
What about furniture movers, and garbage men - there's athleticism involved there.
My point is - it's a gray line. There's some sort of athletic skill - hand/eye coordination involved and reflexes that is needed to play.
Don't worry.
Gamers, in general, use the term 'e-sports' in a purely derogatory manner.
Not very sporting...
So what about things like skeet shooting? Or ski shooting, a sport where being the fastest and fittest doesn't necessarily mean you're going to win? What about car drivers who do very little physical movement, like any other motor sports?
There are sports about strength, sports about speed, sports about the reflexes, sports about the mind, and sports which muddle all of the above.
No, e-sports are not sports, nor does anybody want them to be. There's no benefit to professional gaming to have it classified as a sport, and nobody in the professional scene cares if you call it a sport or not. "e-sports aren't real sports" is addressing an argument that nobody in the pro scene has ever made or would ever care to make. This wouldn't happen so much if it was referred to as just "competitive gaming" instead of e-sports.
twas but a joke
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
I draw the line at mechanical ability. If video games required none, you or I could probably compete just as well as anyone else on the stage, but that's clearly not the case, especially if you've ever played some of these games. Just because these individuals have limited their athletic prowess to the hands does not put it in the same realm as chess even though it's closer to it than it is to rugby.
To further make the point, are bowling, golf, darts, billiards, or auto racing sports? None of them require much in the way of athleticism, yet they are all considered sports and have professionals who can make a living engaging in them. Which of those, if any, are also on the chopping block?
Forgot to say accuracy
If they stopped pressing every hotkey on the keyboard just to increase their e-peen APM, even though they do nothing half of the time... Switch between Command Center and barrack... 200 in a minute... wow, you so pro... serves no purpose... doesn't make the cooldown any faster...
O well if its popular it must be good.......
Good-bye
Oh, because sports is running around smashing into other big dudes and getting drain bamage instead of using your most powerful organ?
I don't think that most of the activities I perform with *my* "most powerful organ" count as sports. Uh... huh huh huh.
Oh... you meant the *brain*?
Button mashing is not a fucking sport. And it's not worth anyone's time watching for a second.
It would be if electroshock was involved...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Which matches my own style of humor but being slashdot it is often hard to tell a joke from a smack on the head ;)
Don't forget synchronised swimming http://a.abcnews.com/images/US...
And these guys can click a mouse like a moo fo
Or even better http://www.goodasyou.org/good_...
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
In pro gold there are no carts, and you have to be able to drive a ball ~450 yards or whatever. Good luck.
In pro bowling you need to take a 16 lbs ball and fling it 60 feet, at 22mph, while imparting 600 rpms on the ball. Then repeat it 250 times over the course of a match. And make sure each shot is+/-1 inch of target. Again, good luck.
That, I suppose, is the disconnect. The definition of sport (when it related to gaming) is "to amuse oneself". Chess is a sport if the players are amused. Video gaming is sports if the players are amused. And basketball is a sport so long as the players are amused.
How many injury and/or operations does a usual sports player get in the course of his/her career? Basketball players, football players (both American and European), tennis players, skaters, swimmers, runners, etc, ALL suffer injuries over their career and not surprisingly some of them are repetitive injuries from practicing the same motion over and over. Where's the outrage over those? Where is "The Real Scars of American Sports"?
Heck, even *office workers* suffer RSI for using the mouse for too long!
Oliver.
Who decides what's good? Do you have a website/newsletter so you can tell us?
High level bowling is definitely a sport. It is 250-ish bicep curls with a 15 or 16 lbs ball. At the pro level you're playing >15 games in a row.
The best one is 'Cyber-Athlete'. I got to go join the CAL GG CS:GO server...GG Guysh, GG...GG.
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
Yes, yes it is.
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
Most 'sports' will leave the participant in better physical condition (i.e. healthier) than if they weren't engaged in them. E-Sports fails on that point alone. Get up, and walk around once a day. We weren't built to live on a chair. The business world has a monstrous amount of RSI related injuries for the same reason; Form & Function, yet we disregard both.
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
Nope. Golf is a game, not a sport.
It not ENTERTAINING athleticism.
I spend more time being entertained watching starcraft than watching football.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
i mean thats cool and all...but button mashing is now a sport???
It's an e-sport. E-sport is a different word than 'sport' and it can mean something different.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Moo fo, is that another term for a cow fuker?
Let's cut the crap. All those similar competitive GAMES require a similar mind set. Greed, an ability not to get mindlessly bored doing the same thing over and over and over ad infinitum, an inability to achieve anything beyond that (otherwise they would) and of course a total willingness to publicly lie about the virtues of products they are paid promote. 'Er' yah, three cheers for that, why, seriously why?
Hey, I think you just described a career! Well, marketing anyway.
Or 3 on 3 basketball. Have you seen some of the guys playing that?
I'd love to see this get popular!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5TQSKmS3o Chess Boxing!
Played football in high school. Smashing people is fun. Still made a 1590 on the SAT.
Sports jocks are natural winners. Computer gamers are natural losers trying to win at something fictional.
+1 if you agree.
you don't just mash buttons in these games, the strategy and teamwork required to even play the esports games is higher than any physical sport there is, sure it's not physical, and it's not artistic either like say figure skating, and it's hard to argue that golf is very physical, you just take a swing and walk a bit, but it is extremely deep in the strategy and decision making required, it's not just mashing buttons like some console game
Playing a drum kit for two 1.5 hour sets and then a 45 minute set closer is definitely work. I do not know if it should be called a sport (though you can compete - see rudimentary drumming for instance or a drum corps, drum line, etc) but it sure as hell is work.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Neither does pulling the trigger on a firearm in the commission of a felony.
I dunno... That could be the most extreme sport there is. Hypermode? Play it in Texas.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Play a woodwind, or be a singer, there's a whole lot of breath control required which means staying in shape.
"To further make the point, are bowling, golf, darts, billiards, or auto racing sports? None of them require much in the way of athleticism"
Formula 1 drivers are subjected to quite high forces, and require excellent physical condition to avoid injuries / unsafe situations.
for anyone who wasn't sure who Lee Young-Ho was.
I swim for fun, not for competition. As does the majority of people in the world.
It's harder to play at baseball without coupling it with the game.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Linux is a heavier abstraction for running software, so in that sense Linux has more operating system to it than DOS.
But by using that measure, Java/JVM is more of an operating system than Linux. A far more complete abstraction for running software.
Not sure how far we should drag your analogy around, but we can start beating the dead DOS horse at any time.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I think (just as you indicate) most people really have no idea about the physical demands a Formula 1 driver has to endure. They have to be ridiculously fit. Most normal people would not stand simply riding along for a single lap at race conditions.
Now, since bowling, golf, dart and billiards *are* indeed classified as sports, I can't see why professional (and indeed, non-professional as well) gaming involving coordination, motor and thinking skills to a very high degree should be classified as anything but.
As far as I can tell, the only reason it's even a question in the first place is due to the stigma (yes) associated with computer games, from a historical perspective, as something non-serious.
Still waiting for that stigma to finally die the fuck out.
Nope. Golf is a game, not a sport.
As an obsessive and compulsive new golfer, I agree with this.
Now, off to bed so I have a good game tomorrow after spending past 2 evenings at driving range, doing back yard chipping this afternoon, and having played a game 2 days ago.
"To further make the point, are bowling, golf, darts, billiards, or auto racing sports? None of them require much in the way of athleticism"
Formula 1 drivers are subjected to quite high forces, and require excellent physical condition to avoid injuries / unsafe situations.
When race drivers go for a drive to get exercise, I'd consider driving a sport (despite the motor-sport moniker).
I'm not saying the drivers aren't fit, just that they use sports to get fit so they can drive competitively.
IMHO, etc.
Good point. I imagine they are really working to keep the music at the same level the entire time too. I have done lots of singing but mostly backup or just a few songs in a set. So, yeah, I am not too tired after that.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
that's quite funny in an article about a stress injury requiring surgery happening to a player of the sport.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Most 'sports' will leave the participant in better physical condition (i.e. healthier) than if they weren't engaged in them. E-Sports fails on that point alone. Get up, and walk around once a day. We weren't built to live on a chair. The business world has a monstrous amount of RSI related injuries for the same reason; Form & Function, yet we disregard both.
No.
Both 'sports' and gaming have physical benefits if you engage in it sparingly. On a competitive level football players, boxers, runners and competitive gamers all retire with permanent damages, more or less severe depending on how hard they strained themselves to become the best.
See subject "Forrest" & this -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...
Aren't people hating on the e-sport label the very reason behind it being called an e-sport? Let me expand on that a bit;
I personally couldn't care less about how we label the competition. I specifically look at following "Dota 2/CS:GO players or teams" or whichever game they play.
This whole nonsense about e-sport makes me think that people who weren't happy with or couldn't understand why some people would call themselves "pro-gamers", would argue that they could play X and Y game very well and should be labelled as pro-gamers themselves (think your average Joe playing something on xbox/ps). I could play football (not the american kind) quite well and I never in my life thought about calling myself a pro footballer.
I think that kind of affected the people with influence/money/connections in the professional gaming community to think about validating the gaming in the eyes of the clueless(and sponsors) and coming up with the e-sports crap. I doubt anyone who genuinely enjoys computer games and watches other, way more skilled people play games, needs to have a fancy name for it. It is gaming/pro-gaming or just plain playing computer games and that's it. If you cannot take it for what it is and have to start calling it something else or hating on it, then you should probably just not pay attention to it.
I wonder how we'd categorize competitive masturbation...
Indeed, golf am not no sport.
So racing is only a sport when professionals do it. If you take your car to the track for some casual fun racing, you're not engaging in sport because you're not a pro and it won't be uncomfortable. Got it.
In that case they don't have sports at school, either.
[He] is the best player in StarCraft and has won everything in this field and is still going strong
i mean thats cool and all...but button mashing is now a sport???
I'm not sure why that was modded "Troll" but, any activity, certainly any game, that people are willing to spectate will be called a "sport". From the OED:
sport, n.1
[Aphetic form of disport n.]
I. 1.I.1 a.I.1.a Pleasant pastime; entertainment or amusement; recreation, diversion.
It's only recently (last hundred years) that we've come to associate the word "sport" more with physical exertion, as in team sports and Olympic-type sports.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
imagine the io is redirected to and from the physical world
Not knocking the skill, just not sure sport is the right word
That's always a good excuse to consult the dictionary! The OED, for instance, has an extensive entry on this word. TL;DR: It's the right word.
If you're gonna make up your own definitions, you're always gonna have to qualify them everytime you use words in your own idiosyncratic way.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
When race drivers go for a drive to get exercise, I'd consider driving a sport (despite the motor-sport moniker).
I'm not saying the drivers aren't fit, just that they use sports to get fit so they can drive competitively.
Which differs for other sports like soccer in which way exactly? If you don't have basic strength, agility and stamina you will not be able to play soccer effectively. Basic training comes before training with the ball or actually playing a match for soccer players too. I see no difference in the case of competitive driving.
I think you don't understand the physical fitness required. I might understand that hopping on a F1 is not feasible, but hopping on a competitive 2-stroke 125cc go-kart is. Most newcomers last a couple of laps before they are completely exhausted.
When race drivers go for a drive to get exercise, I'd consider driving a sport (despite the motor-sport moniker).
I'm not saying the drivers aren't fit, just that they use sports to get fit so they can drive competitively.
Which differs for other sports like soccer in which way exactly?
Playing soccer is exercise in and of itself, that's how. Of course, elite players work out so they can play soccer (etc) better, but the game itself is excellent exercise, hence it's a sport.
I think you don't understand the physical fitness required. I might understand that hopping on a F1 is not feasible, but hopping on a competitive 2-stroke 125cc go-kart is. Most newcomers last a couple of laps before they are completely exhausted.
While I don't necessarily disagree, I still don't think many (anyone?) goes for a drive for exercise, and if they do, then I'm pretty sure a coach of some sort would tell them "You're doing it wrong. Drive for practise; play sports for exercise, stamina, cardio, strength..."
I've been around billiards and played billiards all my life. I love it. And I would not consider it a sport. It is a game. Games can require a measure of physical skill and still be games.
Here's as close as I can come to proof: take money out, and leagues, and "pro" anything out. Did it ever occur to you while playing Pac-Man that it was a SPORT? Are you going to a billiards match, or are you going to shoot a GAME of pool? Give me a break.
:::The Spear in the heart of the Other is the Spear in the heart of You; You are He - Surak of Vulcan:::
Playing soccer is exercise in and of itself, that's how. Of course, elite players work out so they can play soccer (etc) better, but the game itself is excellent exercise, hence it's a sport.
Then competitive driving is a sport too since it's excellent exercise by itself too. Of course serious racers work out so they can race better, but competitive driving itself is excellent exercise, hence it's a sport. Actually some competitive motor racing sports are among the most physically demanding sports in existence.
While I don't necessarily disagree, I still don't think many (anyone?) goes for a drive for exercise, and if they do, then I'm pretty sure a coach of some sort would tell them "You're doing it wrong. Drive for practise; play sports for exercise, stamina, cardio, strength..."
I know a lot of people who use go-karting as a way to train their stamina, cardio, strength and have fun. Other kinds of racing sports are typically much more expensive, so you are unlikely to do them exclusively for "exercising", but go-karting is relatively affordable.
Most coaches would tell you you're doing it wrong if you play soccer as exercise too and they would be actually technically right: without the proper physical preparation it's pretty easy to get injuried. Actually exercise is not the reason most people play soccer anyway: they do because they enjoy playing it, not because they want to exercise.
Wow I really like Chess boxing. I would love to see that gain popularity!
See subject "Forrest" & this -> http://tech.slashdot.org/comme...
Most 'sports' will leave the participant in better physical condition (i.e. healthier) than if they weren't engaged in them..
Yeah, like the brain damage you get in boxing, or American Football? Or all the great ways you can bust a knee in any number of sports. Seriously watch an interview with a retiring sportsperson some time when they discuss their injuries - I saw one not long ago with a cricketer (Cricket right, how dangerous can that be?), not a young guy but you wouldn't have called him old, apart from all the broken bones and sprains and twisted this and that he described how when he woke in the morning he was so stiff it took him half an hour to get out of bed with assistance from his wife. A little RSI is nothing.
How is it any less of a sport than, say, chasing a ball around on a field?
Hemingway: 'There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.'
I really don't get bullfighting, but the point is that a sport has to involve (a) physical prowess and (b) a serious risk of dying. Traditional "field sports" like hunting, shooting and fishing fail by this second measure, as billiards fails by the first.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
To further make the point, are bowling, golf, darts, billiards, or auto racing sports? None of them require much in the way of athleticism, yet they are all considered sports and have professionals who can make a living engaging in them
As people have noted below, you're wrong about auto racing, but the others are all games, not sports. Being able to make a professional living out of something is irrelevant. Antique dealers and bricklayers aren't sportsmen.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
yes. yes it is.
I guess that really depends on whether speed or endurance is the chief feature.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
when i think of "sport" i think of athleticism. Swimming, baseball football
Just to be clear - when you say swimming are you also counting "falling off a cliff gracefully" and "underwater dance"?
Let's cut the crap. All those similar competitive GAMES require a similar mind set. Greed, an ability not to get mindlessly bored doing the same thing over and over and over ad infinitum, an inability to achieve anything beyond that (otherwise they would) and of course a total willingness to publicly lie about the virtues of products they are paid promote. 'Er' yah, three cheers for that, why, seriously why?
So, exactly the same as the National $SPORTSNAMEHERE League Associations!
OK, seriously - there's a reason the majority of sports stars retire into obscurity. Worse for college athletes, who get cheated out of an education so they can Play In The Big Game.
e-sports are probably in a better place right now, since there's not enough money involved yet for it to turn into a puppy mill for geeks in the way the jocks get chewed up in sports.
It is better that tax payer funds are only used to promote participating sports and not spectating sports. Why should people pay to subsidise sports advertising.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
You've obviously never been good at Starcraft. I'm a skinny guy, but I break out into sweats when I'm playing a fast-paced game! It's not so much about strength, but endurance, concentration, and accuracy. I know people might not understand it, but don't write off progamers just because you don't get it.