Surveillance Court: NSA Can Resume Bulk Surveillance

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Surveillance Court: NSA Can Resume Bulk Surveillance

Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday June 30, 2015 @02:08PM from the two-steps-forward-two-steps-back dept.

An anonymous reader writes: We all celebrated back in May when a federal court ruled the NSA's phone surveillance illegal, and again at the beginning of June, when the Patriot Act expired, ending authorization for that surveillance. Unfortunately, the NY Times now reports on a ruling from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which concluded that the NSA may temporarily resume bulk collection of metadata about U.S. citizens's phone calls. From the article: "In a 26-page opinion (PDF) made public on Tuesday, Judge Michael W. Mosman of the surveillance court rejected the challenge by FreedomWorks, which was represented by a former Virginia attorney general, Ken Cuccinelli, a Republican. And Judge Mosman said that the Second Circuit was wrong, too. 'Second Circuit rulings are not binding' on the surveillance court, he wrote, 'and this court respectfully disagrees with that court's analysis, especially in view of the intervening enactment of the U.S.A. Freedom Act.' When the Second Circuit issued its ruling that the program was illegal, it did not issue any injunction ordering the program halted, saying that it would be prudent to see what Congress did as Section 215 neared its June 1 expiration."

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The founding documents present a path... by msauve · 2015-06-30 14:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, â" That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
1. Re:The founding documents present a path... by zenlessyank · 2015-06-30 14:56 · Score: 5, Interesting
  
  Unfortunately, I am too poor to make the trip to Washington D.C. to help replace the government. I am also unarmed. My vote is weightless, as it cannot fall on either side of the fence given. I hear so much grumbling in the wind. I have heard it since the '70s. 40+ years later, NOTHING. Riots where people destroy their own neighborhoods is not what I want to sign up for. Seems if say, like 60,000,000 of us show up in Washington D.C. then maybe we can rip out the old fence and put up a new one with sides that mean something. Slavery is alive and well in the USA. We are slaves to our own greed. And selfishness. And fear. And hate. And Government. And the Government Minded. But I believe these are treasonous words in this police state, and I fear I may end up in Gitmo. SO... I retract all that was previously stated and label this for "entertainment purposes only".
2. Re:The founding documents present a path... by cayenne8 · 2015-06-30 15:13 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  What is this?
  "One Court to Rule them ALL?"
  And here we were thinking the Supreme Court was maybe throwing a bit too much weight around making laws up.
  I guess SCOTUS is just not secret enough, and FISA is.....
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
3. Re:The founding documents present a path... by cold+fjord · 2015-06-30 15:16 · Score: 1, Troll
  
  So are you thinking constitutional amendment, constitutional convention, a vigorous letter writing / lobbying campaign, or ... cough *armed insurrection* cough?
  Is the straw that broke the camel's back for you Citizens United, Obamacare, gay marriage, NSA collecting phone records, or warm beer?
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
4. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-06-30 15:18 · Score: 1
  
  Good luck getting people to "abolish" this. I don't exactly know too many people willing to literally assault government offices, prepare to repel the National Guard response, and proceed to carve a path to the White House over any of this. Even the gun nuts who worship the 2nd and have the means of doing this wouldn't be able to pull that off.
5. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-06-30 15:39 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  No it is not. People on slashdot like to post stuff like this as if it is even remotely likely.
  The majority of the American people are sufficiently well-off that there is no way in hell they are going to risk their lives rebelling against the government. It doesn't matter how egregiously the government betrays us...so long as we live in relative comfort we will accept it and come back for more.
  I suspect that the most defiant act you are taking is to post derisive comments on slashdot, and possibly download a few files in violation of copyright law. Most of the "revolutionaries" in America are right there with you, buddy.
6. Re:The founding documents present a path... by lhowaf · 2015-06-30 15:44 · Score: 2
  
  I don't think the Declaration of Independence is considered a founding document. More of an uncoupling document. The problem isn't the Constitution - it's the asshats we keep sending to Congress.
7. Re:The founding documents present a path... by ganjadude · 2015-06-30 15:46 · Score: 1
  
  oh dont get me wrong, I say the same thing you just did many many times. but with everything that is happening right now, im just saying its not impossible, just highly unlikely.
  
  I wouldnt be upset personally thomas jefferson said it needs to happen from time to time....
  
  --
  have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
8. Re:The founding documents present a path... by currently_awake · 2015-06-30 17:03 · Score: 1
  
  If there is one thing judges hate, it's having someone question their authority. Having the secret spy court declare that everything is fine will not go down well with that lot.
9. Re:The founding documents present a path... by MobSwatter · 2015-06-30 17:04 · Score: 2
  
  No it is not. People on slashdot like to post stuff like this as if it is even remotely likely.
  The majority of the American people are sufficiently well-off that there is no way in hell they are going to risk their lives rebelling against the government. It doesn't matter how egregiously the government betrays us...so long as we live in relative comfort we will accept it and come back for more.
  I suspect that the most defiant act you are taking is to post derisive comments on slashdot, and possibly download a few files in violation of copyright law. Most of the "revolutionaries" in America are right there with you, buddy.
  Maybe you are making reference to the 1%? What of the undocumented unemployment rates? Betrays us? They betray themselves as they print money every six months just to keep the governments doors open. The more I compare what I hear in the US with what I hear from Putin, the more I make the distinction that the voice of reason is over there and though I don't agree with the way he is trying to rebuild the USSR involving the Ukraine, I understand why he is doing it, and his haste in doing so. When it comes to being communist I'd have to say the way things have panned out in the US, the shoe is clearly on the other foot. At the time of the fall of the USSR, they faced the same things the US is facing now and rather than attack their own people they shut down their government, this is a clear difference between their government and this one. These are the things that I drew the conclusion to offer him what my family was working on pre 1964. Even if there were to be regime change in this country, there is no way to reverse the damage done to it, and what that damage will result in.
10. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Loki_1929 · 2015-06-30 18:05 · Score: 1
  
  I am also unarmed.
  Whose fault is that? Pick up something used and cheap. Start interacting with local firearms communities and someone will probably give you something if you're that bad off and then take you to the range to show you how to use it. "I am unarmed" is the battle cry of those who've long laughed at the Second Amendment. If that's you, fine; stop laughing and get involved in some communities.
  
  --
  -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
11. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-06-30 19:37 · Score: 1
  
  Judges can be impeached. This judge is too compromised, whether through fiscal means or by a profoundly limited understanding of the world, to perform the duties of his in proper fashion.
  Impeach the sonufabitch.
  
  --
  Will
12. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-06-30 19:50 · Score: 1
  
  It seems pretty damn absurd to go to those extremes when this judge could be handled by impeachment. Push your legislators and political action groups in that direction. Any judge can be impeached if he appears to be failing to apply the laws of the land in his decisions. This guy is clearly doing so.
  I doubt that it would even be necessary for the impeachment to be successful. I think just a loud enough call to take this guy out of his office and invalidate a bunch of his recent decisions would shine a bright enough spotlight on the situation to get all the cockroaches scurrying for cover.
  
  --
  Will
13. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-06-30 20:01 · Score: 1
  
  Not really interested in getting Sodomized by the Lord.
  Wow. Never really thought of it that way before, but that is certainly a powerful way to express my feelings about the whole God and Country mess.
  I object to any God who wants to sodomize me or anyone around me, even if only in token and not in deed. I favor the Great Rite in deed, or in token when that is more appropriate.
  
  --
  Will
14. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-06-30 20:04 · Score: 1
  
  The direction action in this case is to call for the impeachment of the FISA judge. Whether that was successful or not, it would shine a light on the cockroaches and get them to scurry for cover.
  
  --
  Will
15. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-06-30 20:06 · Score: 1
  
  Impeachment of the judge is the better route. Much less messy, and more sure to bring a favorable change.
  
  --
  Will
16. Re: The founding documents present a path... by erikkemperman · 2015-06-30 20:12 · Score: 1
  
  Wait, are you suggesting the Confederate flag be repurposed as a symbol for freedom-loving people? I mean that in the true sense of the word, which implies opposing these secret spy programs, not the security theater perversion.
  Yeah, somehow I don't think that will fly.
  
  --
  Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
17. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Demonoid-Penguin · 2015-06-30 21:14 · Score: 4, Insightful
  The majority of the American people are sufficiently well-off that there is no way in hell they are going to risk their lives rebelling against the government. [...]
  Lives? I disagree - though not seriously. Let me try:-
  The majority of people living in the countries represented by FiveEyes believe they are millionaires in waiting. They blame:-
  
  "illegal immigrants" (people fleeing the countries they are at war with - who now work the jobs they are too good to do)
  "disruptive technology" (business that threatens the businesses that profit from the many wars their countries are involved in - run by liberals and others that understand things as a result of effort they're too lazy to exert)
  "moral degeneracy" (anyone that don't toe the line they plant their noses on hoping to impress the powers that be)
  the "welfare state" (that which seeks to redress the imbalance that "they" hope will one day soon be unbalanced in their favor - "that single mother lives in government housing with her four kids on almost $1000 pw - I wish I got that much to watch tv all day")
  for the fact that they are not already millionaires.
  What they want is to be conspicuous millionaires (spend like there is no tomorrow), and celebrities (worshiped like they worship other celebrities). They want the fruits of technology and instant knowledge without effort. Holidays in foreign climes where life is cheap, financed by credit serviced by revenue from winnings and speculation guided by others. Angry, scared (of losing what they don't have), and insane (as a consequence of believing in diametrically opposing impossible things) they cower like whipped dogs before the same authority they wish to be.
  No surprise then that most retreat to worship at the altars of entertainment, superstition, or conservatism - the three pillars of denial.
  So much typing. It should be easier (someone else do it for me).
  Now rise up and rebel you, you, - other people. Some one (else) needs to kick some arse.
18. Re:The founding documents present a path... by BlueStrat · 2015-06-30 21:45 · Score: 1
  
  {Darth Vader voice}
  "We will crush this 'rebel alliance' and destroy all who oppose the Empire!"
  {/Darth Vader voice}
  Strat
  
  --
  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
19. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Demonoid-Penguin · 2015-06-30 21:48 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Good luck getting people to "abolish" this. I don't exactly know too many people willing to literally assault government offices, [...]
  When the citizens of a country attack the citizens of the same country peace and enlightenment won't be the result. Replacing one corrupt government for failure to look after your interest is how likely to result in another government that will look after your interests?
  Repeat after me - "I will not outsource my problems and expect the ability to blame others is acting responsible in anyway". People will always lie to you - the problem is not the lying it's the failure to check facts. If history shows anything it's that shooting your own people (and that includes the police and the army) does not improve anything for the majority.
  The reason governments abuse power is because they can - regardless of the political model or party, they will. Periodic cleansing is a requirement - do it via the ballot box but that process is meaningless unless you think a little harder and realise that the solution is meaningless unless you reduce the scope of government power asking less of the government.
  Demanding either by show of force, signatures on pieces of dead tree, or marches does nothing (good) of lasting effect. Instead of demanding, stop asking. Don't ask for employment stimulus or better roads, or better education. Do it yourself.
  History also show that ain't gonna happen either - you'll all follow the next person that promises to lead you to a better life (if you lay down your lives) or provide you with better representation (if you'll just back their candidacy). Outsource responsibility, outsource responsibility, rinse and repeat. The cycle of rise of civilization followed by overthrow by the stupid, the greedy, and the poor - who destroy that which they wish to inherit, leaving future generations to wonder who built that great civilization now lying in ruins - and why did they build it in the middle of the desert when now only illiterate sheep and goat herders wander.
  Wake me up when you all plan on breaking the cycle of history. Until then doing the same old shit over and over is unlikely to result in a different outcome
  Hint, the North didn't liberate the slaves of the South - they now work the LSP, formerly the Angola Plantation, run by descendants of the original "freeman" - and kept populated by the descendants of the original rollers - now judges and police. Lest that sound too focused on the USA - the situation is little different in any of the FiveEyes countries (different dog, same leg action). The "elected" leader of the Eureka Stockade joined parliament and sold out his supporters, aborigines, Kanacks, the Irish, etc, etc, and the Scots still occupy the same economic positions they did when every Australian "revolution" fizzled (didn't the USA used to have a "Revolution" day??).
  Of course it [insert label for those on the shitty end of the stick here] is "their" fault. Poverty is a choice right?
  Replacing a judge with another judge is just playing a game where those with power write the rules (and some of them make all those guns).
20. Re:The founding documents present a path... by StikyPad · 2015-06-30 22:18 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Soo, you want to replace a democratically elected government because you disagree with the electorate? Because your individual vote didn't outweigh all of theirs? How is that better? That sounds worse to me.
  Keep in mind, I'm on the side of strong civil liberties, but I don't think that can be accomplished through tyranny. If people know they're right, and they're dedicated to making change, and convince others, then change can happen. See the decriminalization of marijuana as one of the most recent examples. Or gay marriage. It may take a generation, or even two, but it happens. As Churchill said, America always does the right thing -- after trying everything else first.
  This is more about expectations. It seems that you expect things to change quickly and decisively just because you see them a certain way. That expectation seems unreasonable to me, even if I agree with the way you see things. Maybe I will have to deal with intrusive government surveillance for the rest of my life, but prior generations have had to endure worse. I'll do what I can to change minds and votes, but I don't expect it to happen overnight. That's not how society works.
  
  --
  https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
21. Re:The founding documents present a path... by sjames · 2015-06-30 23:22 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Or the NSA compiled a very special Dossier.
  Congress made it clear they did not authorize bulk surveillance by the NSA.
22. Re:The founding documents present a path... by sjames · 2015-06-30 23:26 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  I doubt there will be outright rebellion at this point, but a lot of lesser rebellions will take place. Even some corporations are deliberately messing with the NSA these days. Respect for federal authorities and police at all levels is falling fast. No armed insurrection or anything, just a bunch of "We destroy all records every 24 hours", "Gee officer, I didn't see anything", "Smile for the camera officers", and "the next version will feature built in encryption".
23. Re:The founding documents present a path... by sjames · 2015-06-30 23:31 · Score: 1
  
  Is it a democratically elected government or is it "democratically elected" like they did in the USSR?
24. Re: The founding documents present a path... by IMightB · 2015-07-01 00:47 · Score: 1
  
  Your vote is not worthless, just vote for someone that doesn't have a D or a R next to their names. Also don't vote for dynasties. It only worthless when you vote for the status quo
25. Re:The founding documents present a path... by jgriffith325 · 2015-07-01 00:57 · Score: 1
  
  This. We've got too much to lose to fight with guns. Fight with technology. (shameless plug) I just started a company to build encrypted Android communication apps that don't leak meta-data, and I don't store PII anywhere. First one is called Mom Says.
26. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2015-07-01 01:06 · Score: 1
  
  I have already contacted my congress critters. Unfortunately Senators Klobuchar and Franken seem to support these unconstitutional actions with their vote on the USA FREEDOM Act and don't seem to like our freedoms. I have also contacted my Representative John Kline but his is of similar mind in these cases and seems to be even more supportive of these actions in general. Since I am not in either Keith Ellison's or Tom Emmar's districts they really don't want to hear from me but they were both against this bulk data collection and may be sympathetic. Below is the body text I sent off to Senator Klobuchar, Senator Franken, and Representative Kline both in paper form and in e-mail. I specifically mention their votes on the USA FREEDOM act so depending on how your congress critters voted you may need to change that part if you just do a copy paste.
  
  I am writing you today to encourage you begin the process of impeaching Judge Michael W. Mosman on the FISA court who ruled that the NSA may continue the bulk data collection on American citizens. This action was already ruled illegal by the US 2nd court of appeals. Furthermore with the passage of the USA FREEDOM act, which you should have voted against, further clarifies that bulk data collection by the NSA of Americans data is not allowed and will be ended. This still ignores the fact that the US constitution is very clear on on the issue of bulk collection of data in that the government may not issue general warrants, or perform searches without reasonable cause. How is it reasonable that everyone in the United States might be considered a terrorist?
  
  --
  Time to offend someone
27. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-07-01 01:11 · Score: 1
  
  Thanks for the wording.
  
  --
  Will
28. Re:The founding documents present a path... by pla · 2015-07-01 01:17 · Score: 2
  
  Soo, you want to replace a democratically elected government because you disagree with the electorate?
  
  Did you even read TFS? The electorate fully agrees with him. Congress mostly agrees with him. The 2nd circuit agrees with him.
  
  ...And yet, we still have these asshats in FISA blatantly saying "to hell with all of the above, fuck 'em even harder, NSA!".
  
  Yeah, we have a problem here. And the "democratically elected government" ain't it.
29. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Will.Woodhull · 2015-07-01 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  Here is the wording that I am using. After reading yours, I've appropriated some of your phrases.
  
  I am one of your constituents.
  I am writing you today to say that it is time for you to begin the process of impeaching Judge Michael W. Mosman on the FISA court who ruled that the NSA may continue bulk data collection on American citizens. This action was already ruled illegal by the US 2nd court of appeals. Mosman claims that the ruling does not apply to him. However whether it does or not, it is clear that he is allowing the NSA to violate the ending of bulk collection of data that was mandated in law by Congress: he is an accomplice to a practice that Congress has determined to be an illegal activity.
  At this point there is no other way but an impeachment proceding to clarify whether a judge can override laws passed by Congress, which on the face of it is in blatant violation of the Constitution.
  I am urging my contacts to also request impeachment of Judge Mosman, and to encourage others to do the same.
  Thank you for giving this matter your attention. I look forward to seeing the initiation of appropriate action.
  
  --
  Will
30. Re:The founding documents present a path... by magusxxx · 2015-07-01 01:35 · Score: 1
  
  "I told him his name was in the book," - Elliot Ness (Kevin Cosner in The Untouchables.)
  
  --
  Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
31. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-07-01 01:46 · Score: 1
  
  The majority of the American people are sufficiently well-off that there is no way in hell they are going to risk their lives rebelling against the government.
  I think you are wrong about this. Very wrong.
  Reality check: http://npc.umich.edu/poverty/ (have a close look at those thresholds.)
  http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/threshld/index.html
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States
  So if in 2014 a single person made less than $12316, they are considered to be in poverty. If they made $12317 they are not considered to be in poverty. Can you live on $12317 a year?
  "In 2013, the official poverty rate was 14.5 percent ... In 2013, there were 45.3 million people in poverty."
  http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/
  Given the thresholds being so low, you can rest assured that the majority of the US population is working their asses off to just barely survive. There will come a breaking point eventually.
32. Re:The founding documents present a path... by doug141 · 2015-07-01 01:58 · Score: 1
  
  ...so long as we live in relative comfort
  About that "we" and "relative," I believe it was in the book Collapse (by E.O. Wilson) that he observed civil wars are started when the warrier-aged males in a society experience a decrease in living standards.
33. Re:The founding documents present a path... by swillden · 2015-07-01 02:31 · Score: 1
  
  The electorate fully agrees with him.
  This is completely untrue. The electorate is pretty divided, and whether you can find a majority depends which poll you look at, and which week. The fact is that there is a significant part of the electorate that thinks bulk surveillance is fine because they have nothing to hide and it keeps us safe. That they're wrong on both counts doesn't change their opinion, or their votes
  
  Congress mostly agrees with him.
  And yet they passed the USA Freedom Act which, although better than the PATRIOT Act, still authorizes way too much surveillance. And in the process they failed to do anything to curtail article 702 of the FISA, which is the basis for the FISA court's ruling -- as was completely predictable before passage of USA Freedom. The argument is that while article 702 authorizes only surveillance of foreign people, the court considers it perfectly reasonable for the NSA to hoover up ALL the data and then figure out later what they can and cannot look at. This all comes back to the NSA's choice to define "collect" as "look at", since the law hadn't defined the term.
  Congress had a perfect opportunity to define "collect" as "collect", and chose not to.
  
  Yeah, we have a problem here. And the "democratically elected government" ain't it.
  The problem is fundamentally the electorate, which isn't sufficiently convinced that bulk data collection is a bad thing. If 80% of the voters wanted it shut down, enough to make it a major election issue, it would be shut down. But as is Congress knows that with a slim majority (at best) concerned about data collection, if they shut it down and then Something Bad happened the voters would turn on them like a rabid dog.
  The system isn't perfect, but it is basically working as intended. We just need to convince more of our fellow Americans that surveillance is bad.
  
  --
  Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
34. Re: The founding documents present a path... by CanHasDIY · 2015-07-01 02:46 · Score: 1
  
  If you don't think tyranny can accomplish anything good, why do you promote democracy, aka "tyranny of the majority?"
  
  --
  An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
35. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Maritz · 2015-07-01 02:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah but the important people have money, so it's OK.
  
  --
  I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
36. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2015-07-01 04:48 · Score: 1
  
  Fell free to, no complaints here, especially since I am not a very good word smith. I just want more people to get active with their elected officials since so few do.
  
  --
  Time to offend someone
37. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Coren22 · 2015-07-01 05:11 · Score: 1
  
  Egypt is a goo example seeing as how they have been prosecuting people as terrorists for supporting the other party.
  
  --
  APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
38. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Krishnoid · 2015-07-01 05:29 · Score: 1
  
  I retract all that was previously stated and label this for "entertainment purposes only".
  Great! I hope you took a photo with you standing in front of whichever government building you put that sticker on ... oh wait, sorry, I misread the antecedent. My bad.
39. Re:The founding documents present a path... by jgriffith325 · 2015-07-01 10:28 · Score: 1
  
  No. I've been too chickenshit to show my code to the world. But If people are actually interested, I'll clean it up and put it on github.
40. Re:The founding documents present a path... by Demonoid-Penguin · 2015-07-01 12:27 · Score: 1
  
  oh dont get me wrong, I say the same thing you just did many many times.[...]
  I don't think you got what I said at all (fantasy is part of the entertainment pillar dude). And you're rationalizing your apathy.
  Jefferson, for all his failings, never said revolution was a novel reaction that breaks the cycle. No system is perfect and requires constant review. He certainly never said "endless revolution equals freedom". At some point even a passing review of world history should give credence to the idea that replacing leaders is not the solution to the problem of leaders failing to represent them (like we're all in nappies needing to be fed).
  If Jefferson was alive today I suspect (hope?) he'd be suggesting people get off their arses and do something more constructive than lighting torches, loading guns and blaming others for their own fates (like, oh, maybe - represent yourself, don't fucking outsource responsibility). Or maybe just face-palming, it's just a guess.
  Actually - it's possible in this "ooh shiny thing" world he'd be wandering the streets searching for a bottle of cheap wine and muttering to himself about a world full of un-self-educated people with the attention span of a goldfish on speed in a crowded shopping mall.
  Note: I could be joking. Who knows?
41. Re:The founding documents present a path... by jgriffith325 · 2015-07-01 12:29 · Score: 1
  
  Agreed. Not using an open source license, cause I don't know enough about all the different licenses (yet). But, here is the source for the server side. Doesn't prove all my claims, but does show no ip logging and no PII on the server. I'll have to put the app up too, to prove I'm doing end to end encryption between devices. This is the code I'm running in prod now (minus a couple of server specific redactions). It's quite simple, I think. https://github.com/jgriffith32...
42. Re:The founding documents present a path... by KGIII · 2015-07-01 14:45 · Score: 1
  
  Can you live on $12317 a year?
  Could I live on that amount? Absolutely assuming I did not pay property taxes. Would I want to live on that amount? Not a chance in hell. I am in a position where I am able to say I have everything I need. I could live on that amount but I really would not want to. I would need to greatly reduce my expenses but I could. I was pretty poor, comparitively, when I was younger. I managed then and could do it again but I would not be happy about it.
  
  --
  "So long and thanks for all the fish."
First Post? by Patent+Lover · 2015-06-30 14:15 · Score: 3, Funny

Hello, Mr. NSA? Hello?
1. Re:First Post? by msauve · 2015-06-30 14:19 · Score: 1
  
  FCK THE NSA.
  
  --
  "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
2. Re:First Post? by Dwedit · 2015-06-30 15:00 · Score: 1
  
  Leave Frederico Caldeira Knabben out of this.
LOL, wut??? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · 2015-06-30 14:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

Like they ever stopped?
Law in America by Dan+East · 2015-06-30 14:24 · Score: 2

Law in 21st century America: appeal until you find a court with a judge willing to (re)interpret law in your favor. Happening almost every day lately.

--
Better known as 318230.
1. Re:Law in America by BlueStrat · 2015-06-30 21:59 · Score: 1
  
  Wonder what the NSA has on Judge Mossman?
  Maybe he doesn't want himself or loved ones to end up like Michael Hastings.
  Strat
  
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  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Knew it was too good to be true. by amxcoder · 2015-06-30 14:30 · Score: 2

I called it back in May! The government doesn't want to get rid of their shiny new toy, they spent too much money on it, and it gives them too much power to just let it die.

They're basically stating their new unofficial motto is "You can have my surveillance powers when you pry it from my cold dead hand!".
1. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by GoonDuIO · 2015-06-30 14:40 · Score: 1
  
  Frankly, I wonder whether they even know how to utilise what they have collected. Granted, blackmail and all but really with the all bureaucracy and other baggage, I wonder even whether utilising those data would be worth all the trouble. It seems to be a really bad case of the hoarder's mentality.
2. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by Fire_Wraith · 2015-06-30 15:08 · Score: 2
  
  The Surveillance Court (the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the one that does the FISA stuff) is supposed to be one of the checks on the various agencies, and perform relevant oversight/provide rulings. Assuming that we believe that the current system has failed to properly restrain those agencies from doing things they shouldn't, it really should come as no surprise that the Court continues to rubberstamp the same stuff they approved before.
  
  One other interesting note - all the judges on the FISC are solely appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, without any confirmation or oversight by Congress required. I don't know if all of the current judges were picked by John Roberts or not, but considering that every Chief Justice since the act of Congress that created it in 1978 has been a conservative (Republican), that may tell you something about the mindset of the FISC. It's certainly not a place to find diverse opinions.
3. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by dunkindave · 2015-06-30 17:05 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  One other interesting note - all the judges on the FISC are solely appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, without any confirmation or oversight by Congress required.
  While Congress does not get any oversight of the appointing process itself, the Chief Justice can only appoint the judges from the pool of US District Court Judges. This means the judges on the FISA Court were first nominated by the President to become District Court Judges, and then confimed by the Senate, so there was some congressional oversight in terms of who could be appointed.
  
  I don't know if all of the current judges were picked by John Roberts or not, ...
  The FISA judges serve for seven years, and Roberts has been the Chief Justice since 2005, so yes, he picked all of the current judges.
4. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by cold+fjord · 2015-06-30 18:04 · Score: 1
  
  ... considering that every Chief Justice since the act of Congress that created it in 1978 has been a conservative (Republican), that may tell you something about the mindset of the FISC. It's certainly not a place to find diverse opinions.
  So in your mental map of the universe you wouldn't find a justice appointed by a Republican president voting for something like ... say .. "gay marriage" or Obamacare? Perhaps even casting the deciding vote? There may be a gap between your thinking and current events / history.
  
  ...it really should come as no surprise that the Court continues to rubberstamp the same stuff they approved before.
  If the court found it legal before what would have changed? Nothing. Easy decision for them.
  You should probably look into the question of the court forcing the Justice Department to alter applications for warrants. That is far more common than outright rejection. Applications for those warrants are inches thick. Do you think they like to redo them? Do you think they'll just slap some nonsense together just to see if they can slip by? If you think that you probably don't have any insight into the legal system, or the professionalism of judges and lawyers as officers of the court. Why would those jobs be highly competitive and credentialed if you can just slap some nonsense crap together and get by?
  
  --
  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
5. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by StikyPad · 2015-06-30 22:37 · Score: 1
  
  They don't. It's a huge problem (no pun intended). It's been one of the impetuses for "big data," but there hasn't been a single plot disrupted so far. Targeted surveillance is the only way to get effective intelligence. Mapping phone numbers and/or communications to specific phones, and from phones to individuals is far from trivial on a mass level, although it's usually possible with targeted efforts. Dragnets only work if you don't care who or what gets caught up in them.
  
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  https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
6. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by AHuxley · 2015-06-30 23:15 · Score: 1
  
  The good part is people now know understand the junk encryption, the junk hardware as shipped, the software that is wide open to governments as designed.
  People also have the option not to buy or support the big bands that have failed to secure their expensive systems over generations and decades.
  Everyone can see the digital Berlin wall and who funded it and supports it.
  Return to the number pad, number station, support people and buy from brands that warned generations of users.
  The "toy" is a digital key to most big brand servers sold and installed globally.
  The vast illegal domestic surveillance network keeps it funding and contractors but the rest of the world will just route around the junk standards.
  
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  Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
7. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by GuB-42 · 2015-07-01 00:51 · Score: 1
  
  Additionally, there are many people paid to do this. And these people want to keep their jobs.
  And you don't want to piss off people who know all of your secrets. Just look what a single guy with apparently good intentions can do. Now imagine dozens of Snowdens with less pure intentions...
8. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by DarkOx · 2015-07-01 01:06 · Score: 1
  
  Applications for those warrants are inches thick. Do you think they like to redo them?
  The is about the oldest game in business dealings and legal ranging. You toss together a huge pile of largely irrelevant material to "support" your argument, banking on the other guy deicing its to hard to go thru it all or if he can't connect the dots (because there really are none) he must be stupid and won't want to admit it.
  No I am sure they don't want to redo a warrant, I am also sure if one comes over that is an inch think its 98% or more BS.
  
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  Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
9. Re:Knew it was too good to be true. by cold+fjord · 2015-07-01 01:33 · Score: 1
  
  I strongly suggest that you don't test your theories in court, get a lawyer.
  
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  much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re: Above Congress? by bill_mcgonigle · 2015-06-30 14:31 · Score: 4, Insightful

not sure if serious ... CIA people have been in the Whitehouse since 1980, out in the open (it's debatable before then). They spy on Congress, have their own secret kangaroo courts, and carry out overseas executions all admittedly. One could suppose that there's nothing worse behind closed doors but that would be generous towards spies. Who doesn't really think they're blackmailing anybody in Congress or other high elected office?
Politics remains the entertainment arm of the military-industrial complex. After all, people would be mildly non-plussed to learn that they were secretly ruled by spooks and banksters.

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Re:Above Congress? by Bartles · 2015-06-30 14:40 · Score: 1, Insightful

Haven't you been paying attention? The president is above congress. The supreme court is above congress. The irs is above congress. The state department is above congress. Hillary clinton is above congress. All of the government is more powerful than the people who directly represent you. Peon.
Re: Above Congress? by TheCarp · 2015-06-30 14:40 · Score: 2

> Politics remains the entertainment arm of the military-industrial complex. After all, people would be
> mildly non-plussed to learn that they were secretly ruled by spooks and banksters.
It is all Bread and Circuses. The whole system is really great in a way. We have a diffuse democracy at all the low levels, feeding up in a pyramid scheme to a few people at the top. The total resources of 300 million people is taxed and at the disposal of under 1000 elected people...
You almost couldn't ask for a better situation for playing global games for profit.

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"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:Above Congress? by ganjadude · 2015-06-30 14:52 · Score: 1

well, this will be a big talking piece for the presidential hopefuls. So far it looks like Rand Paul and Bernie Sanders are the only 2 who are on the side of the people when it comes to this.

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have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Re:Above Congress? by Patent+Lover · 2015-06-30 14:54 · Score: 1

Unless Congress passes a law reigning in such power which they haven't done since 9/11.
Re: Above Congress? by msauve · 2015-06-30 15:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

"The total resources of 300 million people is taxed and at the disposal of under 1000 elected people..."

...at the Federal level.

And that's the fundamental problem - the government which should have the most influence, and over which the electorate should have the most control, should start at the local level.

We're supposed to be the United States, but the Feds have used the supremacy clause to take over almost everything with real significance, ignoring the 9th and 10th Amendments, which are treated as an inconvenient speed bump.

IMHO, the biggest problem with the Constitution is that the Supremes should really be under the direct control of the States, instead of the Feds deciding what the Feds can do.

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"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re:Above Congress? by ganjadude · 2015-06-30 15:04 · Score: 1

and the president (sitting and previous) hasnt???? smh

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have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Corruption is it's own reward by Anonymous Coward · 2015-06-30 15:55 · Score: 2, Insightful

Did anyone actually expect the government to stop?
1. Re:Corruption is it's own reward by cfalcon · 2015-06-30 18:05 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  It will take it being a serious campaign issue at the federal level for it to stop- and that's just the first step. Every toll road has a toll for X years. Then after X years... it keeps the toll. Every time, no one can turn the tap off. As a nation, we voted in a guy who was gonna close gitmo. 8 years later, still gitmo. As long as the red and blue teams can keep dangling the threat of losing personal freedom if the OTHER team gets in, it's essentially impossible to get policy level things changed.
2. Re:Corruption is it's own reward by Drakonblayde · 2015-07-01 00:58 · Score: 1
  
  Every toll road has a toll for X years. Then after X years... it keeps the toll. Every time, no one can turn the tap off.
  That's actually not entirely true. Georgia State Road 400 was a toll road. It was supposed to keep it's toll for 20 years, expiring in 2011. However, Governor Purdue and the State Road and Tollway Authority voted to extend tolls until 2020.
  However, despite the above extension, Governor Deal and the SRTA decided to end tolls. In December, 2013 the toll plaza's on GA 400 collected their last tolls.
  So while they did get a couple extra years of toll collection out of it, they did actually turn it off like planned.
  Now, I don't think that they were entirely altruistic about it. It happened after they put in the toll express lanes on I-85, and alot of Georgians used GA 400, but alot also avoided it because of the tolls. I-85 is a little more difficult to avoid, and when you're stuck on the I-85 parking lot, that 2 bucks to use the express lane becomes alot more appealing.
3. Re: Corruption is it's own reward by IMightB · 2015-07-01 01:01 · Score: 1
  
  We wouldn't want to vote for the wrong lizard, now would we.
Re: Above Congress? by Ichijo · 2015-06-30 16:31 · Score: 1

the government which should have the most influence, and over which the electorate should have the most control, should start at the local level.

Like an HOA?

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Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
Re: Above Congress? by ubeatha · 2015-06-30 17:43 · Score: 2

I' think you're very close with that idea but I'd replace military industrial complex with corporatism. The same corporatism that inhibits change on climate issues, industrial imprisonment, campaign finance, banking reform, etc. There was a time when we could equate what was good for our corporations as good for our countries but this time has passed. We need to stop being distracted by media chaff and start acting in the interest of our communities and individuals.
Turn it on them by GrahamCox · 2015-06-30 18:24 · Score: 1

Surely it wouldn't be beyond the collective wit of the internet to set up a parallel surveillance system targeting judges, politicians and others involved in dismantling these freedoms. After a couple of months of having their every private movement made public I suspect they'd change their outlook.
1. Re:Turn it on them by BlueStrat · 2015-06-30 21:34 · Score: 4, Interesting
  
  Surely it wouldn't be beyond the collective wit of the internet to set up a parallel surveillance system targeting judges, politicians and others involved in dismantling these freedoms. After a couple of months of having their every private movement made public I suspect they'd change their outlook.
  Quite a while back I posted a comment suggesting a smartphone application that allows people to take a snapshot of a government official/bureaucrat/judge/LEO/agent as well as officials/employees of NSA/NRO/CIA/etc private contractors and upload it and location/time and other relevant data to a website in a non-5-eyes nation where facial recognition and data-mining software could analyze it and make that information and analysis publicly available. Track all their travel, associations, purchases, everything possible.
  Strat
  
  --
  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
2. Re:Turn it on them by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2015-07-01 01:28 · Score: 1
  
  What we should be doing is filing FOIAs for all data collected on our elected officials. So in this case I should file a FOIA for Representative John Kline, Senator Amy Klobuchar, Senator Al Franken, and President Obama. There would be a legitimate reason for the electorate to know who their elected officials associate with, besides it is just the meta data so no big deal or at least that is what I keep being told. Also there shouldn't be any national security issue with receiving this information as these people aren't terrorists and there shouldn't be an ongoing investigation that would be compromised.
  
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  Time to offend someone
3. Re:Turn it on them by BlueStrat · 2015-07-01 19:09 · Score: 1
  
  What we should be doing is filing FOIAs [nsa.gov] for all data collected on our elected officials.
  
  I think it would better drive home the point if elected officials have to file an "FOIA" with the citizens for *their* data and plead their case, humbly, with hat in hand.
  Strat
  
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  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
4. Re:Turn it on them by BlueStrat · 2015-07-02 11:42 · Score: 1
  
  advocating siccing agents of evil on innocents
  Yes, I and many others realize the government considers the people they are allowed to govern by consent of those very same people "agents of evil" if they do not give up their civil rights without push back
  
  Your entire diatribe is based on false assumptions and strawman arguments.
  NSA IRS CIA
  
  Neither myself, nor anyone in my particular agency, has anything to do with violating any U.S. person's civil rights.
  You work for the government. At this point so much of the government is corrupt and has assumed powers it does not have that it's highly likely the agency/dept. you work for should not exist in the first place.
  
  same persons you wish will murder my family.
  I don't wish anyone murdered. I want your activities and associations brought out into the sunlight, as it needs a thorough disinfection. The people most likely to "murder your family" work for the same government you do.
  
  none of which changes our responsibility to protect you
  I'll take my chances, thank you very much, as it seems to the government to be a free license to remove liberty, privacy, and civil rights. Please STOP.
  Strat
  
  --
  Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Hey FISA... by buckfeta2014 · 2015-06-30 21:18 · Score: 1

Fuck you.

Sincerely,
Everyone in the world who isn't American

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Buck Feta. You know what to do.
1. Re:Hey FISA... by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · 2015-07-01 01:19 · Score: 1
  
  Hey not all Americans are for FISA and we do try to stop the shit they do. Problem is that too many of my fellow Americans are too apathetic to help out even if they do dislike these things. Then there are the people who believe it actually makes them safes since the government is doing something and support it but not real strongly who sadly are probably the majority.
  
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  Time to offend someone
Re:Eh, spies are gonna spy. Nobody fuckin' cares by Demonoid-Penguin · 2015-06-30 21:58 · Score: 1

But, it's something to talk about. little late maybe, but it helps me forget about my bunions, which really aren't that bad, I just need to wear big shoes, so I have to be careful on small stairs, but they have non-skid soles, so that's a plus...
Of course talk alone won't change anything. We need to get some t-shirts printed and organise some car boot sales. Let's form a committee and fix things.
Where'd you get those shoes? I'd need a government subsidy to buy the really non-slip ones. My bunions are giving me hell.
Against all enemies, ... domestic... by Anonymous Coward · 2015-06-30 22:17 · Score: 1

âoeI, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.â 5 U.S.C. Â3331
Seems we need every government employee to re-read their oath of office and actually DO SOMETHING!
Re:FISA court by sjames · 2015-07-01 00:15 · Score: 1

I'm fairly sure gay marriage wasn't decided by the FISA court.
Re: Above Congress? by Holi · 2015-07-01 00:41 · Score: 1

We tried that with the Articles of Confederation. A weak federal government was found to be a failure.

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Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
Re:FISA court by cold+fjord · 2015-07-01 00:57 · Score: 1

I'm pretty sure the judges that rotate in for FISA court duty don't hate the US, but I like your bucking of the Slashmind conspiracy ideas.

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much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Re: Above Congress? by TheCarp · 2015-07-01 01:12 · Score: 1

"Found" by who excactly? Just because the people who didn't like it considered it a failure?

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"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re: Above Congress? by CrimsonAvenger · 2015-07-01 02:04 · Score: 1

CIA people have been in the Whitehouse since 1980, out in the open (it's debatable before then).
Debatable? The CIA works directly for the President. Always has, even when it was the OSS (run by a personal friend of the then-President, in case you were unaware).
If the President didn't want them doing something, they wouldn't do it.

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"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Re: Above Congress? by Cytotoxic · 2015-07-01 02:46 · Score: 1

Interestingly, HOAs do have the most scope and reach over your life (if you choose to live there). At least as pertains to your home life. The control how long your grass is, where you can park your car on your own property, what kind of toys you can put up for you kids in the yard, who can come over to your house, when and for how long.... they can be very intrusive. They can even have approval over the sale of the house when you decide to leave.
Pretty much just about anything they'd like can be in the HOA contract you agree to when you buy in. I live in HOA central down in south Florida. They are so pervasive that several of those weekend radio shows that are mostly advertisements for professional services are dedicated to HOA legal advice (both for homeowners and for HOA boards). I've not seen that elsewhere, but it seems to be a pretty hot topic around these parts. They have full slates of callers looking for solutions to perceived HOA abuses or homeowners who are resisting HOA mandates. On the few occasions that I've caught a few minutes, the legal experts seem to advise that "the HOA is going to win so just pay up" most of the time.
NSA Should Be Jailed by BrendaEM · 2015-07-01 04:19 · Score: 1

If the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights is the supreme law of the land, and that law has been broken, then those responsible should be arrested and jailed.
If this were 200 years ago, people would be grabbing their rifles from under their beds.

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https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
Re:NSA = No Sales for Americans by Coren22 · 2015-07-01 04:43 · Score: 1

As opposed to Chinese products which are assuredly compromised?

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APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
The system works! by Krishnoid · 2015-07-01 05:38 · Score: 1

No longer must we live under the disingenuous denials of a domestic surveillance program's existence. It's now been properly approved by a court.
That's good, right? In all seriousness, though, does it sort of count as progress?
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Re: Above Congress? by ArylAkamov · 2015-07-01 08:24 · Score: 1

Agreed, HOAs are shit.
If you're bored, there's a pretty entertaining story about an HOA who decided to put parking boots on cars that didn't display a rear-view mirror tag.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/sho...
If you've got some time to waste it's pretty funny. TL;DR is:
1. dude lives in complex with HOA
2. after a couple years of living there HOA decides to contract parking enforcement
3. company contracted are parking nazis and boot car
4. dude dolleys car with boot into garage, calls cops
5. company dumbfounded, calls state troopers, troopers side with car owner
6. hilarity of magnanimous proportions ensues...
Comment removed by account_deleted · 2015-07-01 11:17 · Score: 1

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