Depression: The Secret Struggle Startup Founders Won't Talk About

mattydread23 writes: In May, Cambrian Genomics CEO Austen Heinz committed suicide. The news stunned friends and family, and sparked a conversation about the growing problem of depression among startup founders. Some estimates say 30% of startup founders suffer from depression, but many are reluctant to talk about their struggle for fear of alienating investors and employees. This feature by Business Insider includes conversations with a friend of Heinz, plus many investors and other startup founders who are starting to talk about the problem and figure out how to make things better.

Comments

LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Privilege white people committing suicide? I'm playing my smallest violin in sympathy.

Re:LOL

[sexconker]

Seriously, if you have enough cash and connections to even think about starting a company, or even doing one of these new-fangled "startups", then you're better off than 95% of the country and better of than 99% of the world.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Financially.

Re:LOL

[Midnight_Falcon]

As someone who lives in San Francisco and is around these type of people, yes, they are doing far better financially. Many of them even lose touch with folks earning average amounts. They ask me why I still live in a one bedroom apartment, and then I inform them the average of $50k/year in rent is well more than half most engineers' post-tax income; and they still don't seem to understand.

The culture of Silicon Valley and California in general is to sound positive all the time and avoid the negative -- people would much rather say nothing or offer platitudes than say "no". This forms part of the problem leading to depression -- everyone is "fake" and say things for political reasons, constantly on social networking talking up their accomplishments and that of their company. Of course, most of it is smoke and mirrors. Also the tech scene can be very pretentious and it takes a lot to "keep up with the Joneses" and stay in the social circles they prize. It becomes too much for many and they become depressed and fade away, replaced at their companies by the VC board. And some willing 20-something then comes and tries to fill their shoes and the cycle repeats.

No one wants to hire a depressed person. No one wants to go on dates with a depressed person (well, at least not many people -- negative/depressed dating site profiles don't get many replies). So, they conceal it until they break with full knowledge that when they break, they'll simply be replaced or their company will simply fail.

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[jeffmflanagan]

>Financially.

Correct. Clinical depression does not give a crap about how much money you have in the bank, though not having to worry about being homeless is a plus.

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[Darinbob]

There are people without the cash but which do a startup anyway. The trouble is that some people think start ups are mainstream, the thing you're supposed to do. There's an absurd mythology around the entrepreneur and that if you're not one of them then you're just a loser. So they mortgage their homes and take a chance that has worse odds than any Vegas gambling table. Or if they don't do that they may be in a startup later in life and learn that their retirement options are vanishing because they decided to be paid in worthless options rather than cash. And as the article puts it, their life style becomes horrific; long hours, constant stress, no family life. At a real job you can take time off, you can even change jobs to get away from the stress. But if you're part of a startup core team then you can feel that you're stuck there. More work, less pay, fewer options for change, but some people stick with it because they believe in the myth.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

You only know about the small percentage of startups that succeed. Most fail within a year. The failure rate is 80% within 18 months, by some estimates. Privileged? Those that succeed may have better backing, or just a better idea, and those founders usually go on to do well for themselves. But let's not forget the risks and pitfalls they had to navigate to get there.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

One limitation of the study (more of a failing really), is that it surveyed an anonymous group of entrepreneurs. The researchers had no way to tell the gender, race, or any other demographic of the participants.

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[faway]

lots of startups are started by privileged Asians and some are even started by women.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

That's on spot.

Depression is self manifested. Another Red Herring of Silicon Valley... really.

Socially awkward MBA/sales guys and nerds together running one city (San Jose). MBA's over sell, nerds have too much ego. Both want competition. With the lack of diversity, it's a man's world in the valley and guess want? Who's got the biggest thing is the law of the land--the thought of failure (not failure itself) is what causes depression there.

That's why some VC mentors promote failure--it solves the depression problem and still keeps optimizing, which is technology. problem is that failure != cash in the economies of the world.

Founders need to drink the koolaid, but also know that working at the bike shop is OK.

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[faway]

I can attest that startup founders are living in a fantasy bubble. they have very little empathy and they will throw anyone under the bus except of course other founders.
I really detest such heartless jerks.

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[Skarjak]

People don't off themselves because they're bored. You have to be a colossal asshole to have no empathy for someone willing to go that far. Your first instinct is survival, breaking that requires serious pain and hardships.

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[Berkyjay]

This is why depression is so misunderstood.

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[drinkypoo]

You only know about the small percentage of startups that succeed. Most fail within a year. The failure rate is 80% within 18 months, by some estimates.

That's over twice as good as restaurants. Let's not forget that anyone running a startup with their own money has already failed. You need at minimum three people for any startup: the techie, the schmooze, and the lawyer.

Re:LOL

[davester666]

Of course, you do have to worry about becoming homeless...

Re: LOL

[JockTroll]

Of course they would. Why, do you think you're too important to be thrown under the bus? Face it, the only limit to the number of people that can be thrown under a bus is how many that bus is capable of squashing. They're nostly nerds anyway so nobody really cares. Heck, I'd throw their whole fucking families under the bus. Then I'd throw the bus drivers under the bus as well. And then I'd drive the bus.

Re:LOL

[goose-incarnated]

Seriously, if you have enough cash and connections to even think about starting a company, or even doing one of these new-fangled "startups", then you're better off than 95% of the country and better of than 99% of the world.

Robin Williams was in the upper 99.99999% of individuals in terms of financial well-being. He still got depressed.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't mean you can't get depressed. Funnily enough people who have the feedom to do whatever are very prone to depression, it's like they aren't really needed or something. I guess they know they are basically useless, just being and using things they didn't deserve, a sort of existential crisis which leads to depression. Life with a ferrari and new shiny things can be VERY empty and hollow. Even more so if you thought having wealth would make you happy, and when you don't automatically feel happy no matter how much you have it causes a conflicted mental state.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

as someone who is outside that california reality bubble - for most of us competitors, employees, suppliers, government constantly screwing you over is very wearing - it really feels like a warzone - and often with low low margins.

being an employee is the easy option 99.9% of the cases

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this modded troll?

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical Ignorant attitude. So much so: I'm not even mad...

I have been diagnosed with Dysthymia(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysthymia). I recently had a major depressive episode that lasted ~11 months. For someone with Dysthymia this is called "Double Depression" because you go from a constant "mild low" to pretty much scraping along the bottom.

Despite being informed about my medical condition, I couldn't get in to see a psychiatrist for nearly a year.

I spent almost that entire time traveling Europe with my wife. I now have a large collection of photos with me forcing a smile in front of landmarks most people are never privileged enough to see in person. The fact that I was unhappy when I knew I had so much to be grateful for just aggravated the situation because it layered guilt on top of the knowledge that I was "broken"(when unmedicated).

After calling something like 20-30 psychiatrists and a trip to the ER, I was finally able to get an appointment to talk to a psychiatrist 4-5 months later. He gave me a new prescription and I feel completely normal again. I'd even say I'm happy now, despite living much less comfortably now than when I was depressed.

If someone has diabetes you don't tell them to "walk it off" if they go in to insulin shock. The fact that a disease involving serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine is treated that much differently is kind of sad. People think because they can feel sad-to-happy at 3-7 means that someone who lives at 1-5 long term is "imagining things" when they say they're depressed.

You don't imagine being dehydrated, but telling someone who is vomiting from dehydration they just need to run a marathon and then they'll get some water is about as useful as telling a depressed person to wake up early, get some exercise, and "eat better".

People who are medically depressed need treatment. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy cannot be relied on as the only solution for patients who are severely ill. To suggest otherwise or to discriminate against people suffering from an illness based on financial privilege is just bigotry. Money doesn't buy happiness and their relative net worth to your own doesn't make them any less of a person deserving of good health. Compared to the kid dying of malaria in the 3rd world, all of our plights would be otherwise meaningless. Fortunately, someone who lives at "3-7" might be able to delude themselves in to believing that using that mental image as a guilt trip for anyone unhappy in the 1st world is somehow helpful or therapeutic instead of neurotic.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

Very true, and you would think that people with sufficient intelligence to start up a company (which is hard work, obviously), would have the intelligence to be able to find out how to be happy.

I did it simply by reading the book 'Stop thinking and start living'.

Re:LOL

[TheRaven64]

Why is this moderated troll? Depression is not the same as just being depressed. It very often doesn't have a rational trigger.

Re:LOL

[BVis]

Because depressed people are just whiny jerks who need to snap out of it. /s

Re:LOL

[bre_dnd]

Are you sure? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...

Re:LOL

[goose-incarnated]

Are you sure? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new...

Yes. From your link - " he had spent much of his life battling alcoholism, drug abuse and depression". So, yeah, he may have been depressed and poor when he died, but he was battling depression all along even when he was worth 75 million pounds. There were many times in his life when he was both rich and depressed.

Re:LOL

[bluefoxlucid]

Depression is so misunderstood because people with depression insist that they have an invisible disease they can't magically get over, and drug companies pander to this by hooking people on Xanax and Zoloft. In developed countries--outside of third-world United States--we routinely treat anxiety and depression with great success: drugs might handle the most serious symptoms up-front, but cognitive therapies provide the long-term changes. Essentially, a licensed psychiatrist talks to you a bunch, and trains you to GET OVER IT.

More specifically, a great deal of mood-driven and mind-driven mental disorders are caused or controllable by mental behaviors. You can improve on ADHD by training your executive functioning system to employ better self-monitoring, initiation, and inhibition, which gives you firm control over your attention system (this also makes normal people smarter); on the other hand, developing a habit of procrastination and distraction by immersing yourself in TV, video games, and Facebook will create ADHD-like behavior, which you can train out in the same way. Anxiety and depression, similarly, require training your self-monitoring and initiation systems to recognize negative thought behaviors (neurosis) and adjust them by limiting mood decay; we have also observed individuals falling into depression from high-stress, leading to anxiety, leading to depression. These major mental disorders can stem from internal issues or external pressures; in either case, the patient can only manage them by self-driven mental behavior management.

Small-business owners of course face a lot of stress. It's no surprise they become depressed and suicidal.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Coward]

This response is precisely why people who suffer from depression do not talk about it or seek help.  There are too many people who think "depression" is "being sad," and they should "just get over it."

Saying, "I'm depressed," and suffering from depression are not remotely the same thing.  There are sad people who do not have depression, and there are people who have depression who are not sad.  Depression can keep you from feeling sadness as easily as it can keep you from feeling joy.  It is not rational.  It can be triggered by life circumstances, but it is not a response to them.  Being better off or worse off has nothing to do with it.

It's like saying, "Seriously, if you have enough cash and connections ... then what business do you have getting cancer?  Suck it up."

Re:LOL

[quantaman]

Seriously, if you have enough cash and connections to even think about starting a company, or even doing one of these new-fangled "startups", then you're better off than 95% of the country and better of than 99% of the world.

By your comment I take it that you care about nothing but money?

Re:LOL

[Berkyjay]

Yup, that's usually what people who don't suffer from clinical depression usually say...."GET OVER IT". It's just purely academic isn't it? Because in the real world we can all just "retrain" our thought processes and mentally force our bodies to produce the normal chemical cocktail that will make us happy. You think you have knowledge and it seems so logical to you. "It works for me so why not them?"

But you are correct in some things you said. You can absolutely train your body and mind to correct day to day anxiety and depression. But for most people with clinical depression it's a constant battle. Training the brain and drugs only temporarily correct these problems and so it's a constant struggle to maintain a level of happiness that most people feel day to day.

So please stop talking like you have the answers. You clearly only understand the problem on a superficial level and spreading your poor understanding off as informed opinion only makes it worse for those of us who can't just follow your simple solutions.

Re:LOL

[bluefoxlucid]

Yup, that's usually what people who don't suffer from clinical depression usually say...."GET OVER IT".

I'm in the 9% of people who can use SAM-e to move from a depressive state to a hypomanic state. I spent 25 years not realizing I was depressed because I never hit baseline; alcohol actually shuts off the depression hard, putting me in a normalized state. Very small quantities of alcohol.

I eventually learned, through introspection, that the trigger was simple: any small problem causing an emotional slip had a limited finite range. Once below the shallow floor, I would fall continuously: a minor negative emotion would make me feel slightly down, while a slightly-less-minor negative emotion became an infinitely major negative emotion. It ran down, down, down the rabbit hole, propelled by its own means, outside my own action and violently opposed to my own grip of enforcement. A small shot of alcohol arrested this process for days: one ounce of rum and such negative feelings produced only a finite-bound feeling of negativity, at least for the next few days.

When I realized what was happening, when I framed it as such, I put a stop to it. For a while, I would recognize when the negative emotions started rolling away on their own, when they had hit the tipping point and gone into the descent to madness; I refused to allow them to do so, swallowing a knot of vomit-inducing depression and demanding my mind function on a rational basis, being quite capable of understanding where the emotions should have stopped even when I had no control over them. The very act stalled the collapse, failing to stop it but not letting it fall so fast toward infinity, and perhaps not so far.

These days I don't have such anxieties. Constant vigilance has reprogrammed my own internal understanding of emotional events. The mechanisms moderating my emotions now eschew the amplification behavior entirely; likewise, I have trained myself to have quite advanced deep-set anxiety management, and so am resistant to general anxiety on a subconscious level. In that respect, at least, I stand head-and-shoulders above most individuals, among an elite group of persons throughout history who have trained themselves to respond well when faced with anxiety; a mere side-effect of correcting the mechanism causing my clinical neurosis.

I am now trying to re-train my executive functions, because I never functioned well at baseline. Extreme depression somehow provided a better mental working environment; hypomania was also good. Without anxiety, I feel lethargic--no drive. There was a price to pay, but I will install new habits. My pattern of procrastination is both my own fault and a matter of physical brain chemistry, and the cure to my clinical laziness is simply to get over it and force myself to build new, corrected habits; whining that I have some internal issue with my brain won't get anything done, although I recognize the root cause of non-anxiety pathological procrastination--laziness--as a similar pathology to depression.

Humans enjoy making themselves helpless. It is an ancient trick: become an invalid to make yourself feel important, so that others will sympathize with you, and so that you can criticize those who do not sympathize with you. I have always hated the attentions of others; I respond poorly to praise and sympathy, and have tended to show others how simple all things are, and to hide my own pains and upsets to draw less attention. Perhaps this made it easier for me; my peers, however, have escaped their long troubles of anxiety in much the same way, and those who have not prefer to simply ignore all their previously-depressed friends in the same way alcoholics ignore their former drinking buddies, consistently doing no more than complain that they have problems none of us can understand--claiming that, obviously, we don't have the same problems, because we got better, and they have not. They simply desire their pathos.

Re:LOL

[Berkyjay]

Ugh, then you are the worst kind of clinical depression sufferer. You found an out and you still don't have empathy for the others who haven't. Well bully for you. Do you think you're the only one who busts his/her ass to overcome this? Do you think everyone else is just wallowing in self-pity? I for one have been fighting my whole life. Sometimes I win a battle, sometimes it wins a battle. But the war is perpetual and it sounds just as perpetual for you. We all suffer from the same symptoms but we all react differently to treatment because each and every brain is unique. That's what makes mental disorders so difficult to treat.

"Humans enjoy making themselves helpless."

Bullshit. Some do, others detest feeling helpless. I think this is a mantra you tell yourself to enhance your own self worth. Your long as hell response detailing your triumph over your depression just reinforces this thought. But again, you lack empathy which greatly takes away the laudable accomplishment of escaping depression. They mean nothing because instead of saying "Hey this is the way folks, anyone can do it", you denigrate those who can't muscle their way out of depression like you did. Thus you enhance your own self worth by comparison.

Re:LOL

[bluefoxlucid]

Ugh, then you are the worst kind of clinical depression sufferer. You found an out and you still don't have empathy for the others who haven't.

I found a pattern, I found others following the same pattern, and I found international research showing that the pattern is known to science. I've also found that the scientific understanding of depression and its treatments are in the same class as the scientific understanding of global warming: while science has less than perfect understanding of either, it is those with a vested interest in denial who wholesale deny such things could possibly be real, in the face of all evidence and scientific consensus. They look outside and say, "See, it is cold! Climate change is not real!" and they say, "See, I feel bad! You must simply not understand how I feel!"

Bullshit. Some do, others detest feeling helpless. I think this is a mantra you tell yourself to enhance your own self worth.

It is a piece of scientifically-well-known psychiatric behavior. You will find respected medical literature at the heart of what has been called "Psychic illness in the need for attention and love"--how outdated a term, "Psychic"--to what is now explained as "Psychosomatic illness as a subconscious behavior to fill the need of self-importance". All humans require a feeling of self-worth to survive; all humans will become clinically depressed without a defining feeling of importance.

The mind can manifest physical illness, just as electromagnetic transmission antennas cause certain people to develop rashes, digestive problems, respiratory diseases, headaches, and other independently-observable symptoms of real, tangible nature, even though the transmitter is an unpowered hunk of metal producing no electromagnetic radiation. We have long studied this as a manifestation of the human need for attention, and refined that, eventually, into a need for an individual sense of importance; yet it becomes an opaque leap of logic to say a person may feel bad due to anxiety over a need for attention, a need to feel important.

It seems more logical to assume that a person may develop mental illnesses in response to a great injury of the psyche, damaging their sense of self-importance. Psychiatric literature has notated many defects in the operating brain when dealing with insanity; yet still observes that a great bulk of the insane show no physical trauma--that their mental state is wholly self-inflicted, a concoction of the mind causing changes in the brain's production of neurotransmitters purely by function of the brain, not by damage. The greatest proportion of the patently insane have developed delusions to comfort themselves in the face of extreme emotional trauma. What nonsense, then, is it to claim that such emotional issues would not cause lesser mental defects?

A human who suffers anxiety must come to terms with that anxiety. Persons with depression lash out at those around them for claiming it's all in their heads, fighting against the very idea that it may be their own fault; and why not? If it were their own fault, they would have to feel bad about it. They may not want to look helpless in the eyes of their peers, but they certainly want to feel that they've not brought this terrible suffering upon themselves by concocting an imaginative fantasy within the bosoms of their minds. They want to feel the weight of a terrible burden that was placed upon them, not of their own actions which they may remediate at any time.

you denigrate those who can't muscle their way out of depression like you did

It is simple technique, not brute force. You draw a stylized illustration in which a person's powerful brain--my great, super-genius-level intellect--hammers its way through the blockages and stands victorious upon the rubble of those things which thought laughably to impede it. The truth is the difficulties are an annoyance and nothing more: a person must first install a self-monitoring

Re:LOL

[Berkyjay]

tl;dr

I'm glad you found something that works for you. But regardless of all your babbel, you offer no room for sympathy and thus I offer no room for you or your ideas.

Re:LOL

[bluefoxlucid]

I'm glad you found something that works for you.

This is a good meta-study, diving into guesswork and hypothesis on mechanisms of depression. Here's some science. TL;DR: pills, long-term (24 month), have over a 3/4 relapse rate; cognitive therapy, discontinued after 4 months, show just over 50% relapse in total after 24 months. Initially, PILLS ARE EXACTLY AS EFFECTIVE, IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, AS COGNITIVE THERAPY. Exactly as effective. You can do absolutely no worse without drug therapy than you can by just talking to depressed people to make them feel better, and you do far better by talking to them and telling them how to get over it.

In a more recent CT -ADM placebo-controlled comparison, 240 severely depressed patients were randomized to ADM (n=120), CT (n=60) or a (pill) placebo control (n=60) treatment.

Big, randomized trial of people with ungodly hell depression (monopolar).

At the end of the 16-week treatment phase of the study, there were no differences in outcome between ADM and CT, with 58% of patients in both treatment groups meeting the criteria for ‘response’. Curiously, there was no indication that the two treatments affected different symptom clusters of depression: patients treated with either ADM or CT showed comparable rates of change of both cognitive and vegetative symptoms of depression.

Cognitive therapy (therapist nicely telling you how to get over it) is about exactly as effective in exactly the same way as taking pills. YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED NEXT!

In the continuation phase of the recent CT versus ADM study, patients who responded to 16 weeks of ADM were randomly assigned to either continue the treatment or change to a (pill) placebo condition. Patients who responded to 16 weeks of CT were withdrawn from treatment and allowed no more than three booster sessions (never more than one per month) during the first year of the follow-up period.

We took their meds away, and kicked all the therapy people out of therapy. Kept half the pill-heads on pills as a control, switched the other half to sugar pills, and didn't tell anyone.

As shown in FIG. 2, 76% of the ADM responders relapsed following medication withdrawal, compared with only 31% of the patients who had been treated with CT. Patients who continued ADM also fared better than patients who were assigned to the placebo treatment, with a relapse rate of 47% (which did not differ significantly from the 31% relapse rate in the CT group). After the continuation phase had ended, the patients who had not relapsed while on ADM were withdrawn from medication. Of these patients, 54% experienced a recurrence (the onset of a new depressive episode), compared with only 17% of the patients who had previously been given CT.

Like 3/4 of the pill-heads became severely depressed once we took the pills away; about 1/3 of the CT people had the same trouble. Half the people who stayed on pills relapsed, although in this study that's roughly equivalent (i.e. assume 47% == 31%): STAYING ON PILLS IS THE SAME AS QUITTING YOUR THERAPY AFTER 4 MONTHS. Of the pill users who didn't relapse, half of them relapsed after we took their meds away

Overall, just a hair under 50% of the patients who had CT for 4 months and then quit were, at 24 months, still cured. Just under 25% of patients who had drugs for 12 months came out of the 24 month period without having another depressive episode. Just under 10% of sugar pill patients were doing fine, no drugs and no therapy.

Drugs are facilitating: they provide you a baseline of feeling, which can help retrain your brain to behave in this new way by restricting its undesirable behavior. That can help; in the most extreme cases, drugs are *required*, because you simply can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps if your h

Re:LOL

[KGIII]

Wait, an apartment is over $4,150/mo in Silicon Valley now if you want a 2 bedroom? As an average?

I do not want to point out the obvious but, well, that is pretty friggen absurd. No, it is completely retarded. I realize it's THE MARKET® and all that but, seriously? Screw that. Get a camper van and shower at the YMCA. Save that amount of money and buy a better car, an alarm clock, and a house out in the suburbs.

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[Midnight_Falcon]

Actually the average rent for a 2 bedroom within 10 miles of SF (not even within SF) is $4,385 a month! SF has laws restricting campers now because so many people tried that -- most places good to park a camper have signs that say "No vehicles over 8" tall or 20" long." I owned a converted shuttle bus. :)

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[KGIII]

Restaurants have a failure of 160% at 9 months? I never knew. I knew they were bad prospects and I would never invest in them but they are doomed to a 100+% failure rate it seems.

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[KGIII]

Most people who "attempt suicide" are not attempting anything of the sort. If they wanted to suicide they would not have attempted it, they would have done it. There are many ways to kill yourself that leave little chance of failure. This is a good thing - it is unfortunate when someone commits suicide like they do. (I am a fan of PAS - physician assisted suicide.)

It has to really such to fail a legitimate suicide attempt. They are often physically screwed for life and still depressed. This is not a good state of mind or a good state of being. Hurl yourself off of a tall bridge if you must but do it at night when nobody can see you and save you. That whole cutting one's wrist or taking a fistful of drugs? That is not attempting suicide. That is trying to get help but being unable or unwilling to just ask for it - and maybe not being taken seriously (which is another issue). You are unlikely to kill yourself by cutting your wrists. If you do then you go up the street and not across the street. If you tell me that you attempted suicide then I expect your liver to not function, the side of your head to be a metal plate, or you to be paralyzed from a jump from a high place (or similar). I do not accept a few faded scars on your wrist. That's bullshit and detracts from those who actually do try to kill themselves.

You want to kill yourself? Get a giant rig and cram a bundle of heroin in there and bang it in a single shot. Do it far away from where anyone will find you. Screw the pathetic attempts with a bottle of over-the-counter sleeping medications and a six pack of beer. You certainly have problems, legitimate problems even, but you can not really say you tried to kill yourself. You tried to make it look like you killed yourself so that you got the attention you felt you needed. You want to kill yourself? Choke on a 12ga slug. If that fails to work you are either really shitty at killing yourself, a coward, or just damned lucky.

Again, this does not mean you do not need or deserve help. It just means you did not attempt suicide. You attempted to get attention. If you want to kill yourself then you will do it. Fear and commonsense stop you. If you overcome those then you will suicide just fine. Until then? Stop attention whoring after the fact and just admit you cried out for help in a manner that suited your needs at the time. Next time just use a phone.

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[drinkypoo]

Restaurants have a failure of 160% at 9 months?

No, they have a failure rate over 90% at 12 months, actually.

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[KGIII]

That is patently asinine. Also, I think you mean 8' and 20' as the ' is for feet and " is for inches. I retired and, for a while, I had an apartment while my house was being built and I kept that apartment even after that as it was a nice place to stay in town and I was a heavy drinker then. It was not a run-down apartment, just a single bedroom, and it was above average condition for the area. I paid 1/10 of that... This is, of course, Maine. I paid ~750/mo for a small house in Torrance actually but that was more like 25 years ago. Still, that is an insane amount for rent. I need to pay more attention. The rent is too damned high, indeed.

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[KGIII]

I am not sure that counts as twice as bad but, and this is the important part, I would have included the /s tag if I thought it was not obvious. It seems it was not. I would not, ever, invest in a restaurant - not even for a friend or a loved one.

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[Anonymous Coward]

8 inches tall or 20 inches long?

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[jfisherwa]

Correct. Clinical depression does not give a crap about how much money you have in the bank, though not having to worry about being homeless is a plus.

Except for when the money runs out and you are covering payroll out-of-pocket and taking on debt until the money is far beyond spent because you are responsible, and it just may come together next week or next month.. again.. and again. Then add depression.

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[grumling]

THE MARKET® should be building massive housing projects in order to fill a need for inexpensive housing. Why is that not the case? Maybe because the people who run the show like sitting on a very valuable resource (buildings), so they elect officials who put plenty of restrictions in place, such as height restrictions, "open spaces" or historical districts, in order to keep their resource scarce and expensive.

Not saying that in a true free market landlords might attempt to sabotage new entrants with other methods, but at some point someone would be able to break the cartel.

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[KGIII]

Honestly, I had not put much further thought into it but it seems you are likely correct. Perhaps someone should be looking into the planning board and the approvals committee? I wonder if there is a conflict of interest, taxation reasons, or if there is a straight up bribery system in place...

There could, I suppose, be actual laws that are in place that are not motivated by greed but prevent new housing (or renovations) projects from being started. I do not know and it is not my area of expertise.

There could be regulations about health, safety, or environmental impacts that may be a consideration but, honestly, it is probably grift and graft. Another could be some sort of zoning laws that made sense at the time. Stereotypical California would be prime for any one of these considerations.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

This might be helpful. A lot of it is anti-gentrification, rent control, NIMBY-ism, and other things that legally block people from building more. I don't think the landlords are really responsible for this.

Re:LOL

[KGIII]

That was a long read but interesting. It gives a nice, and different, view. That is, frankly, a dilemma that I am not sure how to solve. The people that live there should have the right to determine the growth and if that means a poor business growth climate then that is their choice. That is all I can come up with. I suppose you could say that people have a right to live and do business where they want but I do not feel that they should do those at the expense of those who already live there.

Re:LOL

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

I think people should be able to direct the growth of their neighborhood, but only so much; in a city like SF, with property values skyrocketing, landlords do have to raise rents by a lot, and while it sucks for the people who have to move, it's also partly their fault. It isn't an easy problem to solve, but it would help if people at least knew what's going on and accepted that if you block new construction, prices will go up.

Why talk?

[pubwvj]

Why talk about it? We're busy being optimistic. One must be very optimistic to be a startup (any business pretty much) or a farmer. The rest get 9-to-5 jobs.

Re:Why talk?

[TapeCutter]

Yep, extreme optimism is just as much a part of the illness as extreme pessimism, both extremes are disconnected from reality.

Re:Why talk?

[pubwvj]

It's a form of mania. It often swings between the extremes. The middle is no fun. Bye-bye polar. Some might consider it a fair price to pay for the highs.

Re:Why talk?

[AmiMoJo]

The kind of forced optimism that CEOs of startups often have to show is actually one of the things that causes depression. They have to live a lie, where they tell everyone that their shitty platform which does the same thing as five other shitty platforms is going to be the next Facebook.

Re:Why talk?

[pubwvj]

You seem very depressed.
You have a pattern of negative posts.
Would you like to talk about it?
Maybe Dr. Eliza v3.0 can help.

Re:Why talk?

[frank_adrian314159]

You like that, try bipolar Type II. No highs - just irritation and agitation - but the lows are just the same. That one really sucks.

Re:Why talk?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bipolar Type I is WAY worse than Bipolar Type II... Bipolar Type I features complete disconnects from Reality. Hypermania's "flight of ideas" and pressured speech doesn't even come close to the Casino-binges and Home Shopping Network problems of Bipolar I.

Re:Why talk?

[tehcyder]

It's a form of mania. It often swings between the extremes. The middle is no fun. Bye-bye polar. Some might consider it a fair price to pay for the highs.

The highs are just as bad for other people as the lows.

Re:Why talk?

[tehcyder]

The kind of forced optimism that CEOs of startups often have to show is actually one of the things that causes depression. They have to live a lie, where they tell everyone that their shitty platform which does the same thing as five other shitty platforms is going to be the next Facebook.

That's only a problem if you lie to yourself. Lying to others is just business.

Re:Why talk?

[gstoddart]

But, really, there has to be a degree of cognitive dissonance between the hope you'll do well and be super rich ... and the actual reality that, it's a tough slog, you might not get there, and you might have to trade away some equity to someone else to get there ... in which case your payout might not be as big as you hoped.

The difference between con-man and entrepreneur can be a thin line.

I've known a few people who fancied themselves the latter, but had worked themselves into such a feverish pitch trying to get there ended up as the former.

Sometimes people convince themselves things really are going to work out OK, even when completely unfounded. The human brain doesn't always like lying to itself.

Too much on plate

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect most of this has to do with founders wanting to keep control of everything instead of bringing someone else in to handle the day to day business side.

Re: Too much on plate

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, what percentage are control freaks?
I wonder what percentage are sociopaths?

Secret struggle...

[tlambert]

Secret struggle...

Thanks a hell of a lot. Now it's no longer a secret!

It’s chess, not checkers

[macsimcon]

The majority of startups will fail. You have to know that going in, that the odds are very much against you.

I just can’t BELIEVE the things that have gotten funding. Who “invests” $5M in a luxury watch site? I thought there were just a lot of bad ideas out there, but I think there are a lot of unsophisticated investors too.

Does anyone ever ask any serious questions? What happens if the government classifies Uber’s drivers as employeess, and not contractors? What happens if advertising on Twitter doesn’t generate enough revenue? What happens to revenue at Google and Facebook if advertising rates plummet?

I think the key to avoiding depression is to have a good idea from the start, not something that relies on advertising to make money. eBay. Netflix. Amazon. Of course, the last two come with other problems.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens if the government classifies Uber’s drivers as employeess, and not contractors? What happens if advertising on Twitter doesn’t generate enough revenue? What happens to revenue at Google and Facebook if advertising rates plummet?

If those companies aren't making any money, how can they have such high stock market valuations? Why are people paying a trillion dollars for an internet ad network that isn't even profitable? It doesn't make sense!

As for depression, most startups are based on "the internet". Look at all the nonsense that is splurted all over the internet every day. If you're trying to start a new company, you will be forced to deal with that. You can't let your startup be eaten by flamers, trolls, and people trying to push their own weirdo viewpoints. So you have to fight against that. All day every day. Who wouldn't be depressed?

The internet would be a lot better if its users would all grow up and stop posting so much crap. But it looks like there is no chance of that happening.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[Actually, I do RTFA]

I think the key to avoiding depression is to have a good idea from the start, not something that relies on advertising to make money

You're confusing "likelihood of success" with "likelihood of continued success". There were a lot of competitors to be eBay, Netflix or Amazon. Most startups will fail. Those that eventually succeed will often look like they are going to fail. Devoting 1/5 of your productive life to something that fails is pretty depressing.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[thinkwaitfast]

You are not your job. There was a movie about this.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a small company, and our competitors who failed didn't do what they said they would. Or they didn't do any marketing. Or they were just plain dishonest.

It really isn't as difficult as it seems, it is just more work than anyone can imagine. If I had known how much work it was going to be, I probably still would have started the company...I just would have been more depressed while I was doing it!

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[serviscope_minor]

I just canâ(TM)t BELIEVE the things that have gotten funding. Who âoeinvestsâ $5M in a luxury watch site? I thought there were just a lot of bad ideas out there, but I think there are a lot of unsophisticated investors too.

This is why it's depressing being in s startup. Let's say you've got a crack team of 4 co-founders and have not only come up with a good idea but built a product round it, sure it will get better in future but it works now. Let's say you're all grown-ups and actually considered the market before embarking on this and have found that yet there is a niche and a demand. Maybe you've even managed to sell a few units and get people interested, but now need money to grow.

So you go looking for invesment (well you maybe were all along) because you've just invested 4 person years for no pay.

And first you can't get any so you decide to look around at what is getting finded. And holy Jesus Christ on a moped what the ever living fuck who the damn hell ever though it was a good idea to fund those guys? So you have a product that's useful and there's still no competition and now the 25th selfie drone company, going into an already crowed area has just raised some insane amount. As has another facebook/uber wannabe clearly doomed for failure.

And then some moron of an "angel" comes along who decides that a 500% discount rate is what he wants so that if you ever do get VC funding, not only does he own the entire company, but he owns you, your childred and your children's children, your ever living soul and your pet hamster.

Meanwhile money is getting tight and you get back to pitching. Nada. But hey, Uber is now worth more than the combined annual revenue of the entire global taxi industry and then some.

Then these guys net $2,500,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

And now an app which does fucking NOTHING except send the message "yo" to people with the same app installed is valued at $3.3 per user? WHAT THE FUCK? You funded that and you won't fund me? Are you mad?

And that is, I believe, why it's depressing.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[KGIII]

I think the thread is full of people who have never owned a successful business of any size. That is okay and there are still some gems in here. However, it is important to look at the source. Some have obviously owned small businesses or single proprietorship businesses. They too have valuable insights based on their experiences but those experiences do not scale to even a medium size business very well. The source is important but there are some good views. Also, there is the adage of one never working harder than they will for themselves. Personally, I sold my business and retired which is a good thing because the boss was an asshole who seldom gave me a raise, made me work long hours, made me accountable for things I had no control over, and bonuses were nice but they were rare and inconsistent.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[Jastiv]

Marketing, you have to do it, even if you hate it. I found that out after recently starting a business.

Re:It’s chess, not checkers

[serviscope_minor]

Yes precisely. That's why one often needs the money to grow. You've found a niche and built a product. Now you need money to market because you're a tech guy and the "free" marketing you can do yourself isn't worth the money. This might even be part of your business plan.

The trouble is business plans are a reasonable thing from reasonable people. Anyone who thinks that a yo apps users are worth over three bucks each is not reasonable. But because one app in a million makes someone insanely wealthy, but gets all the press, everyone with money wants to fund dumb ass apps because they figure they'll be the next uber even if the app does nothing but say yo.

Oh and I saw some internet connected toothbrush got funding. Because social. The Facebook of toothbrushes or something. Or maybe the uber of toothbrush charging adapters. Who the fuck knows.

The world has gone completely mad, though some may assert it was never sane I the first place.

"Cambrian Genomics"

[mujadaddy]

Cambrian Genomics

...was he depressed that making dinosaurs was harder than he'd been lead to believe?

Re:"Cambrian Genomics"

[John Bokma]

No dinos in Cambrian, so no.

Re: "Cambrian Genomics"

[Anonymous Coward]

Truly.
They were told they had to start with trilobites and build all their way up to dinosaurs.

Re:"Cambrian Genomics"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why it was so hard.

Its even more depressing

[RickNolegalname]

When you learn that your name was copyrighted by the crown when your parents registered your birth and you dont have permission to use the name for anything. Everything you done so far has been in vain. Its illegal to use a legal name. Learn why at losethename.com

So what

[Etherwalk]

Seriously, if you have enough cash and connections to even think about starting a company, or even doing one of these new-fangled "startups", then you're better off than 95% of the country and better of than 99% of the world.

So what? You still have a problem to deal with. Doesn't matter if you're fortunate or driven or whatever to be in the position with the skill-set to drive a startup.

In serious circles (C-level employees, attorneys, doctors, academic faculty, anyone with a security clearance) psychological treatment is still heavily stigmatized. That's dumb. Psychological treatment should just be a fact of life--someone's getting treatment, that should be fine. If it's not, you encourage them not to seek treatment, in which case you have people with *untreated* psychological problems in positions of power.

If you have any pull in your org, you should be advocating for making these things okay. Not as a top priority, but as a significant one.

Re:So what

[Oligonicella]

Oh bull. Therapy is a throw away thing today. The stigmata evaporated along about the '80s.

Re:So what

[Etherwalk]

Oh bull. Therapy is a throw away thing today. The stigmata evaporated along about the '80s.

If you think I'm wrong, try slipping a reference to some condition of yours into every third conversation for a week and see how people react.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a LOT of stigma out there. That it isn't a serious thing and it is easy to get rid out any mental illness. Therapy is only a piece of the puzzle and isn't always helpful. Some people also need meds. Some need both. Some can mitigate problems with things like meditation, mindfulness and just spending less time in the environment contributing to the problem. But that isn't always possible. Some deny that there is a problem. A person can handle only so much stress no matter there financial level.

If " The stigmata evaporated along about the '80s" is true, we must be in the 70s.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Just like how racism doesn't exist anymore right?

Re:So what

[Lunix Nutcase]

http://www.mentalhealth.wa.gov...

Three out of four people with a mental illness report that they have experienced stigma. Stigma is a mark of disgrace that sets a person apart. When a person is labelled by their illness they are seen as part of a stereotyped group. Negative attitudes create prejudice which leads to negative actions and discrimination.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't have to think you're wrong. It's still well-documented that there is still a stigma. There are plenty of studies on this. To quote an article here:

A 2010 study in the American Journal of Psychiatry showed that Americans, between 1996 and 2006, developed a greater awareness of the neurobiological basis of mental illness and became more supportive of medical treatment. Despite that, the social stigma associated with mental illness is still significant— and in some instances, actually increased from 1996 to 2006, according to research led by Indiana University professor Bernice Pescosolido, director of the Indiana Consortium for Mental Health Services Research.

and

Those improvements in understanding mental illness, however, didn't help reduce the social stigma, researchers found. People were more likely to say they didn't want an alcoholic to marry into the family (up from 70 percent to 79 percent) or have someone with schizophrenia as a neighbor (up from 34 percent to 45 percent). Most in 2006 also said they were unwilling to work closely with someone who had schizophrenia (62 percent) or alcohol dependence (74 percent), and most thought people with either illness would likely be violent.

You sound like the typical white guy telling black people that racism doesn't exist.

Re:So what

[KeithJM]

Seriously though, try mentioning anything in every third conversation for a week (Did I mention my sunburn? I got a sunburn on Sunday. I went kayaking and got a sunburn. My sunburn was really bad. My sunburn is slightly better today. I thought by sunburn was better but it still hurts. My sunburn started peeling today). People will react pretty much the same way they would if you mentioned therapy in every third conversation for a week.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but either the illness manifests itself in behaviors that people notice, or people who are aware of it believe that the person who has a mental illness might manifest an issue.

It's sort of like having someone in your Army unit that you know is going to crack eventually. You don't want them covering your back. Or even to be behind you with a gun. Obviously, that's not your normal job, but people who have issues can have personality difficulties that make them difficult to deal with on a daily basis. You aren't going to want to deal with that, if you can avoid it, even if you're a normally charitable person.

Mental fragility is often the only real fragility that matters in a modern workplace. It's no wonder it is stigmatized.

Re:So what

[Jason Levine]

It isn't a psychological condition, but my son was diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome/High Functioning Autism. Since the diagnosis (aka knowing what we're dealing with and not just taking random actions hoping something works), we've made a lot of progress dealing with my son's behaviors and helping him be a more effective student in school. (He's crazy smart so before supports he wound up "dropping down" to normal. Now he's getting high 90's in almost all his classes.)

Despite all of this, my father keeps insisting that this is something he'll grow out of (you don't grow out of Autism), or that he doesn't really have it because he had a good accomplishment (no, going whitewater rafting doesn't mean you've been cured of Autism). My parents get even more defensive when I bring up that I think I'm an undiagnosed Aspie. (It wasn't diagnosed when I was young and all the signs fit how I've been for as long as I can remember.) They act as though my claiming that I am Autistic is an insult directed at them. (If anything, it's a testament to their parenting that I turned out well despite the lack of a proper diagnosis/supports.)

I'm sure people who deal with depression or other psychological issues encounter similar people. There are just some folks who think that just because it's a psychological issue, it's "all in your mind" and you can just try harder and make it go away. Suffer from depression? Just be happy! Having an anxiety attack? Just be calm! Do you have OCD? Just let it go. And if you get treatment for any of this stuff, these people will act as though you're weak for seeking help and not just taking it on alone. In truth, though, trying to take it on alone can be the worst thing to do. Get help. Get as much help as you need. Get professional help and help from family and friends. Ignore those people who try to act like you're just making it all up and can overcome it by just deciding not to have that condition. Those people should be tuned out and interacted with as little as possible.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

You're confused. The guy you are replying to is the guy who says there is a stigma.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting that you bring up growing out of autism, for more severe cases it's certainly true that you don't, but those who are more marginal, whose condition hasn't been picked up on, there's a chance that they'll have grown up and gathered enough coping strategies and reprogrammed their own behaviour enough that they're almost indistinguishable, to the untrained, from someone who grew up without any prominent ASD traits, and once autism is no longer in control of your life then surely, to some extent, you've grown out of it, even if it did a huge amount of damage to your schooling on the way. I'm not for a moment suggesting that this is the ideal, i think early diagnosis and support is essential in helping autistic children fulfil their potential and prevent them from struggling excessively whilst developing their coping strategies, but it's interesting to see how adaptable people can be.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

He said every third conversation, not every third sentence.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's turn the tables around a little: How can you expect these people to possibly understand how autism works, when either it is not experienced, or the reality has been denied or ignored for so long? It's not like they do have a reference point at all, and may be put off by the whole idea of something psychological. Keep in mind, while people often can face anything known, what we fear is often the unknown. To be honest: Before you learned what it was, would you act very differently?

What may help is to gently point to them what autism really is. Try to find websites that best describe the situation, and share that as a start. Share the great information, preferably with a humoristic twist, like this:
http://www.dudeimanaspie.com/2009/11/dude-im-aspie.html
http://www.dudeimanaspie.com/2012/04/dude-im-aspie-kids-edition.html

These also look good / practical (try to search out quality information that focus on emotions and relationships (rather than dry facts) = always a winner with humans):
http://www.wikihow.com/Relate-to-an-Autistic-Person
http://blog.penelopetrunk.com/2013/10/12/3-things-you-need-to-know-about-people-with-aspergers/

Some nuggets here as well:
https://otherlibrarian.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/how-to-talk-to-an-aspi-aspergers-autism-labels-stereotypes-and-strategies/
http://www.forbes.com/2010/08/03/asperger-syndrome-workplace-leadership-careers-autism.html

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing a shrink became chique decades ago, but being on brain meds is still regarded as making you a loon.

captcha: smallpox

Re:So what

[del_diablo]

> there's a chance that they'll have grown up and gathered enough coping strategies and reprogrammed their own behaviour enough that they're almost indistinguishable
Read that again, you wrote it, there is a special word there: CHANCE
The reality is that most never learn to cope, they only learn to cope partially.
So instead of having social peers to interact with, you have issues. And thats really bad.
It also means you stunt your social growth by years, if you ever recover.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

There is nothing wrong with your son. He doesn't have any syndrome. Patients with Autism can hardly speak, let alone get "90s" in all their classes. Your snowflake diagnosis to make your child "extra-special" is an insult to parents struggling with profoundly, permentantly, disabled offspring, an insult to your son whose natural condition wasn't enough to make you happy with him, and an insult to the intelligence of the rest of us who can see right through this ridiculous bullshit.

You are raising your son to be a sperg. Stop. You've done enough damage already. Get him a normal childhood in the time he has left. Otherwise he'll end up a mendacious, amoral, flake like you.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you sir.

Re:So what

[tehcyder]

My parents get even more defensive when I bring up that I think I'm an undiagnosed Aspie.

Gosh, I wonder why?

Re:So what

[tehcyder]

I think it's more interesting how many people self diagnose as Aspie's when there's actually nothing wrong with them at all.

If you've ever known any actual autistic kids, there is no way on earth you'd mistake them for someone who's just a bit shit socially.

Re:So what

[tehcyder]

Mod parent up.

Re:So what

[Anonymous Coward]

My sympathies (and compliments!) to you about your family.

The ability to step into another person's shoes is already difficult enough that it's made even more difficult when it comes to psychological issues. Consider, for example, color blindness and what it is like for you (assuming you don't have color blindness) to experience the world as a color blind person does. Look around right now and try to see your environment as red-green color blind; can you anticipate each impact? How much would you get wrong? Now swap out color blindness and make it a psychological compulsion--can anyone not already in its throes possibly relate to the intricacies of that?

We could say that it's a failure of imagination of the Tom Cruises of the world who have what we think of as half-baked notions of psychology, but that's not entirely fair because then we're just as guilty of inadequately putting ourselves in _their_ shoes. We don't have to agree with them to try to see where they are coming from and respect them as individuals with autonomy and blind spots (just as we ourselves have). Much easier to whip out our indignation.

There are a lot of dichotomies that fight tooth and nail against one another and lately it seems that these oppositions want to tear us all apart. Homosexuality vs. tradition. 99% vs. 1%. Minorities vs. institutions. Gender. Abortion. Vaxxers. Birthers. Triggers. The righteous feel self-satisfied with each of their victories just as the righteous on the other side of the fence entrench deeper with each defeat. Sartre said it best: Hell is other people.

If we all behaved as though each person is fighting a secret war that we'll never know about nor understand, and if we treated all people accordingly, the world would be a much better place.

Or we could take the Philip Larkin route (This Be The Verse) which ultimately leads to the extinction of our species.

Re: So what

[gunnarstahl]

I am 43, married, father of 2. Freelancer, software developer doing java in germany. End of last year due to some reasons I decided to go to a psychologist to find out whether or not I am an autist. Turns out I am. Asperger syndrome / High functioning autism. For me it was very important to get the diagnosis since it answered a question I had for 43 years: Why am I different and what makes me different.

For my parents and siblings this is a different story. they think that since I have a job, make decent money, know how to deal with my life and generally have not strange behaviours this 'being an autist' is just some of my strange ideas and eventually I will forget about it.

Even my wife from time to time has some trouble understanding all of that.

So i know how you feel, sort of. Simple advise from me: Grab yourself a psychologist who a: has some serious knowledge about dealing with adults on the spectrum and b: you can trust and then get your diagnosis. This helps a lot.

In a couple of weeks me second son (5 years) is due for his diagnosis...

Re:So what

[AgentElrond]

In my experience gaining those coping strategies and sufficient acting ability to fool most people is not the same as growing out of it. I have to process all of that consciously at huge energy cost, and always with the nagging awareness that there are a lot of things I'm just not catching, but I don't know what they are.

It also only extends to the most common social situations, as soon as I move outside that set things fall apart. The anxiety and stress that causes is crippling. I can get through it for short periods of time but it takes ages to recover and takes a big toll on work productivity.

I've also found that even genuinely supportive people can't understand what it's like - for most people the model "other people are basically like me" is good enough that they've never really had it challenged and simply cannot step outside of that even if they want to. So these days I never bring it up, spend the energy to emulate NT protocols for those social situations I can't avoid (mainly work) and avoid all others.

So functional? Yes, for certain values of functional. Cured? No.

Re: So what

[Jason Levine]

In my case, a diagnosis would cost money when our budget is tight. I already have my coping mechanisms so it wouldn't help me. My son's getting his help so a diagnosis for me wouldn't help him. I'm comfortable knowing that I have Asperger's without having the diagnosis.

At this point, a diagnosis would mainly be to show other people to quiet them up if they claim I'm just making it up. Quite honestly, there is a limited group of people whose opinions I care about. If $RANDOM_PERSON or even $RANDOM_FAMILY_MEMBER refuses to believe me until I get a diagnosis, that's their problem.

I do know others who have gotten the diagnosis in adulthood and more power to them. For me, though, unless I don't have to spend a lot of money on it (or unless money isn't that tight anymore), it's not going to be a priority for me.

Re:So what

[Etherwalk]

There is nothing wrong with your son. He doesn't have any syndrome. Patients with Autism can hardly speak, let alone get "90s" in all their classes. Your snowflake diagnosis to make your child "extra-special" is an insult to parents struggling with profoundly, permentantly, disabled offspring, an insult to your son whose natural condition wasn't enough to make you happy with him, and an insult to the intelligence of the rest of us who can see right through this ridiculous bullshit.

You are raising your son to be a sperg. Stop. You've done enough damage already. Get him a normal childhood in the time he has left. Otherwise he'll end up a mendacious, amoral, flake like you.

Autism is a spectrum and not everybody is the same.

I have an uncle who is profoundly disabled, like one-of-the-most-disabled-in-the-world-can't-speak-or-toilet-himself disabled, and it doesn't insult his parents or any of his relatives when another parent struggles to find the right care for their child's health. Doesn't matter if it's autism anywhere on the spectrum or a speech impediment or full-blown AIDS.

Re: So what

[Lost Race]

One of my aleph_null rules of life: "If the answer doesn't matter, don't ask the question."

Depression?

[slashmydots]

Depression? Who has time for that?! I've got customers out the door, tax forms to do, end of month accounting, interviews. You'll have to schedule depression with my secretary. Mornings are kinda tight for me though.

Not secret, not new.

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to have sociopaths in your world, they are useful when you need a brain tumor removed. "Normal' people don't wan't to cut on a child's brain but find one who can and will and they get the big office.

Other traits like Megalomania can be harnessed to make CEO's.
How much money do you need to be happy? If you need a lot, that might be a problem by its self .. unless you get it. Then you are a jobs creator instead of a screaming child named Steve Jobs.

There are lots of studies that have looked in to how many 'leaders' are high functioning sociopaths. Fighter pilots, sports stars, don't have to have a diagnosable illness to succeed but the measured percentage of them that do is higher than the mean.
Patton, Macarthur ... are clearly nuts but useful until they don't fit the local work available.
Neil Armstrong seemed balanced... Gene Cernan less so.. he just found a way to fill his needs as "the last man on the moon".. (most recent as he is often corrected).

The fact that a group like this has ancillary detrimental attributes seems expected, this is not not a sudden over looked needy minority.

Both the Navy and the APA disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh bull. Therapy is a throw away thing today. The stigmata evaporated along about the '80s.

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/nmcsd/nccosc/healthProfessionalsV2/reports/Documents/Stigma%20White%20Paper.pdf from the Navy says seeking mental health treatment is still heavily stigmatized in the military / clearance world and the American Psychological Association agrees with them http://www.apa.org/monitor/2009/06/stigma-war.aspx

Quite understandable.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

These people bet their lives on a very risky venture. They must have higher than normal anxiety. It is only natural. Most of the startups fail. A few succeed spectacularly and a few more give non trivial returns. But majority of them face the prospect of closing shop and getting into the daily grind, but five or ten years behind their batch mates. It would be depressing.

Also 7% being depressed in general population is definitely an underestimate. Till Obamacare came along some 40 million Americans had no access to healthcare. (Now that number is believed to be 25 million). Among the rest mental health screening is not covered for most of the lower end plans. Further given the taboo associated with mental illness even those with access do not get checked for depression. It is possible I myself would be diagnosed with depression, if I give the shrinks half a chance. Tech founders typically have enough resources to make it to college. They would get tested more than general population.

I think depression is more prevalent than assumed. And logically there are lots of reasons why most people, young ones more than others, should be depressed.

Re:Quite understandable.

[Anonymous Coward]

they did not bet their lives.

3 years of their lives and someone else's money

that doesn't make them gods among men

Bipolar Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Every startup I've ever known or been involved in has had amongst its owners a charismatic person suffering from one or another flavor of bipolar disorder.

I honestly think that bipolar and startup are related to one another. Well-adjusted people don't take such crazy risks.

Posting as AC to protect others' privacy.

Re: Bipolar Owners

[Anonymous Coward]

Replying to myself. "Well-adjusted" was an unfair characterization. I meant to say something more like "those without such issues."

Don't forget about burnout!

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't just depression. Burnout is a serious problem, too!

For example, today I read this awful description of burnout. In that case we have a programmer writing stuff like

I'm currently in a state where I litterally just can't write code. At all. I get dizzy, headaches, I've even cried a few times just at the sight of my text editor.

and

A little over a month ago, only 3 years into the project, I blew up. One day I woke up, sat in front of my computer and broke up in tears. Called the boss to tell him I couldn't work for a few days. To this day I still can't code. I'm not even sure I will ever be able to code again either. For now I'm looking at applying for Walmart for an undetermined amount of time.

That type of story makes me very sad. You know things are bad when an adult man is brought to tears, and is potentially never able to code again. This is a serious problem, but it goes completely unrecognized or unacknowledged so often!

Re:Don't forget about burnout!

[tnk1]

His mistake was simple. He decided to be irreplaceable because he didn't think anyone could do as good a job as he could. You can't do that. That never, ever works out well for you.

Now, a startup founder is a really important person for their company, of course. However, even they need to work towards limiting their workload, at least eventually.

There's no point to building a startup if you end up dead or broken at the end of it. If you see it coming, then you need to act to fix it. If you go with the idea that you work or your startup fails, then when you break down, your startup will fail anyway. That or if you do make a successful startup, but break down because of making it successful, congratulations, you've just defined Pyrrhic victory for the startup scene. You'd probably have been better off as a wage slave at the end of it.

Some people are driven to try and succeed, and the journey can be as rewarding all by itself, even with failure at the end. But if you aren't someone who can enjoy, or at least regard the journey as a rewarding learning experience, you should not be founding a startup.

Re:Don't forget about burnout!

[Anonymous Coward]

the only model that seems to work these days is 'build it in Bangalore', keep it running with investors, sales at a 90% margin, then try to sell it to an MBA fool in big corp Inc.

if it needs people actually delivering (OMG!) then yes he would be irreplaceable

Re:Don't forget about burnout!

[Anonymous Coward]

This reminds me of trading where 90-95% of traders don't actually make any money consistently. Part of what makes it hard is that even if you do make some money, you never know why: It could be execution (hopefully). It could be insight / prediction (usually doesn't work well in practice). It could be market timing (easiest after severe downturns). It could be sheer, dumb luck. Probably, it might be any weighted combination of these. Yet, most people think investing / trading is a very lucrative game, except when they try it for themselves, or they get lucky, which can lead to even bigger losses down the road since they then learn to take on too much risk.

Likewise, people hear of startup founders making huge success, and automatically think it's easy money. It isn't and you should never do a startup if you're not in for the learning curve, harder work than you've ever done before and truly want to pursue your own dream / vision, which in the end should benefit some form of customer to be sustainable. Is it something like 1/10 startups go bust in 1 year? At least the overwhelming majority fail. There too it can be any number of factors, both in your control and outside of all control.

So both is like playing roulette with your life and sanity. Actually, by learning to control risk, trading can in time become relatively safe and sane, although a lot less lucrative than most people imagine as drawdowns it into your earning-potential very quickly. Startups on the other hand is putting all your eggs in one basket, trying to make the shot.

Re:Don't forget about burnout!

[Anonymous Coward]

> You know things are bad when an adult man is brought to tears,

Boohoo! A privileged white cis opressor is brought to tears by his own patriarchy. Get him to play some video games! Shitlords. You just all hate women.

Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

What percentage of people who begin startups have a history of depression?

I know that some years ago a doctor quizzed me about depression.

• GP "Do you ever get depressed?"

• Me "Well... yes, sometimes" "Isn't that normal?"

  GP "It's not healthy" "Do you ever feel sad about events outside of your control?"

  Me "For instance?"

  GP. "Do events in other countries ever make you feel sad?"

  Me "Yes" "Seems normal to me that knowing other people are suffering doesn't make me happy"

The GP then tried to prescribe me Xanax - which just made me feel depressed (no - I never took Xanax). So I have a history of depression (there's more than that incident - I do have "black days" where I want to stay in bed and avoid the world). Whether that's serious or normal doesn't change the fact that I've started a number of successful new businesses, and as part of the process I've often neglected my diet, been extremely stressed, and suffered from extreme lack of sleep. Others with similar business history report the same thing - periods of optimism, energy and the feeling that the brain (and the mouth) are at their optimum, followed by periods when I get words wrong, struggle to get out of bed, feel mentally sluggish, and have difficulty believing things will "go well".
Clearly I haven't committed suicide, but was it the startups that caused the "depression" - or the "side-effects" of "depression" ("extreme" optimism and "energy") that "impelled" the desire to startup a new business venture?

My "suspicion" is that starting any new business involves mixed emotions. Losses loom larger than gains - and despite initial optimism there will always be periods of doubt. It kind of balances out, no ups without downs.

Anything new involves risks - and to many the risks appear larger as the involvement shifts from dipping your toes to taking a plunge. Terms like "bi-polar" and "manic" get bandied about when describing people who are successful at taking risks but I've seen little to show that's a result of starting a new/novel venture. Perhaps I'm too depressed to look in the right places?

Note: after the first couple of experiences the process is much easier to deal with as you can look back on previous occasions when it felt like the sun would never shine again - and know that good things, while often hard to imagine - are just as likely outcomes as the bad things that are much easier to imagine. That seems normal to me.

Re:Bad science?

[Bite The Pillow]

Before some armchair asshat brands you as bipolar, consider that depression is a natural result of effectively burning out the anxiety receptors/generators.

Too much stress, and you either lack the stress hormone generation, or you are desensitized to its effects.

Untreated anxiety results in depression. For some, that means a trip to the doc for some meds. For others, it means time to do something exciting, like start a new company.

Serial startups may be self medication. It may seem like you are coping well, but it may be a coping mechanism to make up for things you are missing.

At some point, and it may not be you in particular, but many in the same position will have something give out. Physical or mental health or something else, it doesn't matter. Basically anyone living in a first world country (by any definition) already has an abnormal life, and living on the edge is really just taking an extra chance. I suspect there is no real "issue" here other than people deciding that "toughing it out" is somehow "being true to yourself". The normal stressors of modern living plus the added stress of putting your life on the line, basically, eventually put people like you at higher risk.

If you wear sun screen, watch your diet, or in any fashion try to look after your physical body, but neglect your mental health, it seems you are willing to accept an abnormal life as normal, when it's not. To individuals, yes, but to humans in general not in any sense normal.

Re:Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

Before some armchair asshat brands you as bipolar, consider that depression is a natural result of effectively burning out the anxiety receptors/generators.

Thanks - but I've never been labeled bi-polar, or manic-depressant (well, once or twice). Over-enthuasiastic, yes, and also accused of "thinking too much" - neither of which labels worry me (nor smart-arse, especially considering the antithesis).

Too much stress, and you either lack the stress hormone generation, or you are desensitized to its effects.

Oh I stress. And I worry. But neither consume me. A certain amount of stress is good, and worry is just a sign that some risk needs to be managed - beyond that I'm not concerned.

Untreated anxiety results in depression. For some, that means a trip to the doc for some meds. For others, it means time to do something exciting, like start a new company.

Agreed - though I suspect the medical "solution" is the result of not properly addressing the cause. The few people I know who suffer from anxiety attacks also seem to have a lot of "issues" they ignore: money they owe; people they've fucked over; huge differences between the person they appear to be and the person they really are - and they believe "we" all live like that. It's my belief that when you bury major issues they pop back up in the night and drag their maggot infested corpses into your bed - which can't be healthy. Denial, guilt, and "I am not worthy" should be addressed or you build new ventures on a rotten foundation.

Serial startups may be self medication. It may seem like you are coping well, but it may be a coping mechanism to make up for things you are missing.

Maybe - self awareness is a bit like do-it-yourself eye surgery (tricky). Business is like physical challenges to me - a challenge that produces great satisfaction.

At some point, and it may not be you in particular, but many in the same position will have something give out. Physical or mental health or something else, it doesn't matter. Basically anyone living in a first world country (by any definition) already has an abnormal life, and living on the edge is really just taking an extra chance.

"Insanity is a sane reaction to an insane world" ~ some dead Scot.

I suspect there is no real "issue" here other than people deciding that "toughing it out" is somehow "being true to yourself".

Agreed - I suspect they (the people referred to in the cited article), lack the necessary balances required for a "whole" life. Real friends (what Neil Young called the people "who will tell you when you're pissing in the wind"), love, relaxation, regular exercise, healthy community involvement, rest and good food. Most importantly, a business plan that includes an escape clause - if I don't achieve x I will walk - and mean it. I've often found committing myself to the escape clause makes it redundant.

The normal stressors of modern living plus the added stress of putting your life on the line, basically, eventually put people like you at higher risk.

No argument there. Only that without risk there is few gains, life without joy is no life at all, and some become habituated to the joy of overcoming difficulties, likewise discovering their limitations. The trick - I suspect, is to take only risks that carry the sort of potential failure that you can live with. Calculated risks
I'll spare you the muscle, sinew, and bone analogies for when stress is good (it also requires rest, nutrition, and light stretching)..

If you wear sun screen, watch your diet, or in any fashion try to look after your physical body, but neglect your mental health, it seems you are willing to accept an abnormal life as normal, when it's not. To individuals, yes, but to humans in general not in an

Re:Bad science?

[sabbede]

Stress can be depressing, and creativity correlates with chronic depression. No surprise that depressed people could have a great idea to turn into a startup, or that the stress of doing so could express as depression. In the case of BiPolar disorder, that manic phase has obvious advantages for an entrepreneur, but people with BPD rarely consider themselves depressed.

As a personal note - excessive, semi-random use of rhetorical/grammatical tools like "scare quotes" also correlates to BPD. Combine that with starting a number of successful businesses during periods of high-energy, optimism and a sense of operating at a mental optimum, along with phases of crippling depression, and you've pretty much announced that you have BPD. I'll be the armchair asshat who says it - you just described the symptoms perfectly. No criticism, no shaming, I'm just going to recommend you repeat that to a psychiatrist.

Re:Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

Stress can be depressing, and creativity correlates with chronic depression. No surprise that depressed people could have a great idea to turn into a startup, or that the stress of doing so could express as depression. In the case of BiPolar disorder, that manic phase has obvious advantages for an entrepreneur, but people with BPD rarely consider themselves depressed.

And yet... I do freely admit to often having been depressed. Why do you sound like the childhood shrink who diagnosed me as hyperactive - while the very book he was quoting from noted that a key symptom was "thrive on lack of sleep". I like my sleep, always have.

As a personal note - excessive, semi-random use of rhetorical/grammatical tools like "scare quotes" also correlates to BPD.

Excessive? Semi-random? You don't read like much of a psychiatrist or a semiotician

Combine that with starting a number of successful businesses during periods of high-energy, optimism and a sense of operating at a mental optimum, along with phases of crippling depression, and you've pretty much announced that you have BPD. I'll be the armchair asshat who says it - you just described the symptoms perfectly. No criticism, no shaming, I'm just going to recommend you repeat that to a psychiatrist.

Yeah - you are an asshat. You sound like one of those "I have a problem but 10 visits to a shrink cured me - now I'm an expert in spotting the specks in other people's eyes" - but that's just my opinion, my partner says "hallmarks - but I wouldn't judge on so little information" (there's your semi-random "scare" quotes). Though I make no claims to psychiatric insights - I'll leave that to the suitably qualified with a few years experience (those that gain that same knowledge from treatment/therapy may just be delusional)

You'd think she might have noticed sometime in the last 26 years that I "might" be bi-polar? If I am bi-polar, and the people around me have failed to notice - I must be high functioning given my age and the lack of crash and burn in my history. But what do I know?
Personally - I suspect your "opinion" say little of me and speaks volumes of you.

Re:Bad science?

[sabbede]

Hey, I'm not trying to be a jerk about it. I'm just telling you what I see, take it or leave it.

But your use of scare quotes is still ridiculous.

Re:Bad science?

[KGIII]

You see a blurb of text on a screen without any additional factors and attempt to draw a meaningful conclusion, a diagnostic conclusion no less, based on that? That is akin to seeing my foot and telling me that you have concluded that I am an elephant.

Re:Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

You see a blurb of text on a screen without any additional factors and attempt to draw a meaningful conclusion, a diagnostic conclusion no less, based on that? That is akin to seeing my foot and telling me that you have concluded that I am an elephant.

I just looked up the manual - turns out he's right. The erratic use of scare quotes is proof of bi-polar. They look like bats "". Scary.

Re:Bad science?

[KGIII]

What was surprising and did not match the rest of my home-use experiences was that I get the same address every time. The one that remained turned off got the same IP address back after about a six week disconnect from the power that ran the router. That is what was different than my usual experiences. I typically would return home after a weeks vacation and find the IP address had changed when I powered the router back on. That was the expected behavior from what I had been conditioned to anticipate. Having it different, a static IP address, was a nice surprise.

I used to pay attention to my IP address because I would often connect from work to retrieve data that I did not bring with me. It was important that I use an IP-to-domain service that enabled me to just use a single URL to connect to my system and access my files. I would just update that information when my IP address changed and eventually found a freeware application that enabled me to just skip the manual updating. I think the service I used was dyndns and the freeware application is behind unwilling to power on neurons.

Re:Bad science?

[KGIII]

Ignore that. I had several tabs open and I am functionally retarded.

What I meant to say, to you, was along the lines of; Yeah. I found it a bit odd that they were "seeing" things in the other person's post. It was remarkable how much insight they could gather from those limited sentences. Their ability to grasp a person's mental health status with so limited information should be lauded and investigated as they truly can change the psychiatric medical field. I suspect they will get a Nobel Prize and be featured on the cover of both Time and Rolling Stone magazines. Also, the ladies will be impressed so they will further their genetic profile far and wide.

Re:Bad science?

[KGIII]

Ignore my other post. The actual reply is threaded below the nonsensical reply. The nonsensical reply, while a nice enough post and all, does not belong here. My gibberish knows no bounds and my inability to comprehend even simple things is unlimited.

Those are not the words you are looking for.

Re:Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

What I meant to say, to you, was along the lines of; Yeah. I found it a bit odd that they were "seeing" things in the other person's post. It was remarkable how much insight they could gather from those limited sentences. Their ability to grasp a person's mental health status with so limited information should be lauded and investigated as they truly can change the psychiatric medical field. I suspect they will get a Nobel Prize and be featured on the cover of both Time and Rolling Stone magazines. Also, the ladies will be impressed so they will further their genetic profile far and wide.

It's not psychosis - it's psychic abilities. Obviously.

Re:Bad science?

[sabbede]

Ever read something written by someone with BPD during one of the extremes? Reading case studies was a hobby of mine. They can be a lot of fun.

Re:Bad science?

[Demonoid-Penguin]

Ever read something written by someone with BPD during one of the extremes?

No - I don't believe I have. I've never put ants up my nose either. Guess I'm not very adventurous.

I did flick through a couple of pages of Shirley McLaine's "Out of my Tree" and that Dan Brown book once (I couldn't sleep) - do they count?

Re:Bad science?

[sabbede]

I don't know. Unless you're talking about the DaVinci Code, I haven't read either.

Ozzy Osbourne snorted ants once. He didn't recommend it, but he didn't specifically warn against it either.

Depression is not self pity

[TapeCutter]

Would you say a financially comfortable american with terminal cancer is 'better off' than 99% of the world? - Of course not. Same thing with depression, depression is not self pity, it is a mental illness that has fuck all to do with the size of your wallet. As Robin Williams demonstrated, sufferers are unable to endure living even when swimming in money.

I'm not having a go at you personally, most people who don't understand depression have your dismissive attitude. I suggest you try educating yourself on the subject because odds are you will encounter a loved one with depression at some point in your life and it's handy to know what to do after telling them to "cheer up" doesn't work.

As for TFA, I don't find it surprising that "start up" people have a high proportion of manic-depressives, the manic phase of the illness is characterized by extreme optimism.

Shameless plug for a good cause

Re:Depression is not self pity

[sexconker]

Would you say a financially comfortable american with terminal cancer is 'better off' than 99% of the world?

Yes I would.

Re:Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you!

BiPolar Disorder (manic depression is slang) is a very serious condition. Roughly 4% of the world's population is affected by BPD and Schizophrenia (Source).

My mother suffered from BPD. When she was off her lithium, the manic and depressive phases nearly tore our family apart multiple times. Personally, I've struggled with Depression a few times in my life even though financially, I'm very comfortable. Much of the last depressive episode was tied to the implosion of my last start-up. It's been a couple years since I exited that project and I'm only now reaching a point where I'm building my next new business. Fortunately, I have a fantastic support network and I'm not shy about seeking therapeutic help when needed because of my mother's experiences.

There is definitely stigma in many industries for mental health issues, regardless of how many years ago they were or current therapeutic activity. I don't talk about my mental health history in any professional context. There's no way investors would have faith in me or my business if they knew about the suicide attempts or other depression related history. As a multi decade survivor, I've learned how to read myself and my environment in a way that will hopefully help me live well for me and mine. It's also given me a keen eye for the signs of mental health issues in countless colleagues, coworkers and friends.

Our society is fucked up and currently configured in very unhealthy ways with those in control being disproportionately narcissistic (Source and psychopathic (Source), I don't expect anything to get better any time soon. Honestly, I'm glad our careers led us not to have kids, because this world won't be a better place for anyone in the bottom 98%.

Re:Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

I was suicidal as a young person, I know depression. I am now middle age, I've been through drugs, therapy, hospitals, psych wards, the gamet. You are giving yourself an excuse for remaining in your condition. At one point, I stopped giving myself an excuse, and took responsibility for my condition, and did something about it.

How to cure depression (yes, cure it)

Think about other people more than yourself. Do more for others than yourself. When you find you feel bad, consider who you feel bad for (hint, it's yourself). No one I have ever met is actually depressed because of someone else's condition. This reality (yes, it's a cold hard fact) is beginning place.

Do this for years (try 30 years for me) and you constantly work at this, never give up, always telling yourself you aren't going back to the dark places no matter how bad it is right now, do not let your self wallow, do NOT use excuses like "illness" to stop you. Do NOT listen to doctors and other depressed people about how you can't do this yourself. (you can)

The best part is that now that I have escaped, I will _never_ go back, and I do not need meds, I do not need a doctor to tell me whats wrong/right. I don't need confirmation from others to be happy. I do not _want_ any crutches to make it through the day. I even found it easier to quit unhealthy habits. (just quit drinking coffee, I drank too much as a programmer)

Extra stuff that helped. I started exercising in my late 30s. I did only 10 minutes a day of running, and it changed my life _entirely_. Tons of energy and life now. Stupid doctors, health and fitness trainers tell everyone all these ridiculous rules about how to exercise, and running (not walking) 10 min a day was all I needed.

But most importantly, help others. Spend real time doing something for other people, it will change your life.

Re: Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

Go back to being depressed and kill yourself, loser. Nobody cares about your whining. You were a heap o' shit when you were a scrawny little teenager good at nothing that everybody was making fun of and beating up, and you're a heap o' shit now that you're an unbalanced adult that everybody is laughing about behind your back. You're stuck at square one. Put an end to it already. Be a man once in your useless fucking life and kill yourself. Now.

Re:Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

Then you are delusional, or your priorities in life re vastly different from mine.

Re: Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are not doing well, and really need help, call a friend. Some one cares, you just have to find them.

Re: Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you and your My Little Pony friendship shit, you homofag. Just break a bottle on your head, slice your belly open with the shards and strangle yourself with your entrails. Loser.

Re: Depression is not self pity

[BVis]

lol u mad

Re: Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

You actually just brightened my day.

Re:Depression is not self pity

[tehcyder]

Much of the last depressive episode was tied to the implosion of my last start-up. It's been a couple years since I exited that project and I'm only now reaching a point where I'm building my next new business.

Wouldn't it be more sensible just to go and get a nice easy job somewhere, like the rest of us?

Re: Depression is not self pity

[tehcyder]

Fuck you and your My Little Pony friendship shit, you homofag. Just break a bottle on your head, slice your belly open with the shards and strangle yourself with your entrails. Loser.

Issues? Me?

Re:Depression is not self pity

[Anonymous Coward]

The article was not talking about clinical depression.

Re:Depression is not self pity

[Antique Geekmeister]

> Would you say a financially comfortable american with terminal cancer is 'better off' than 99% of the world?

Better off than at least 50% of the world, possibly as high as 90%. They have access to high grade medical care which has a chance of saving them, time to spend with their family, some resources to leave for their family's care, access to high quality painkillers, and an opportunity to do a few "final wishes" they might otherwise miss out on. I've had several friends die from cancer: while the end can be devastating and agonizing, their day to day life leading up to that end was often far better than the ordinary world citizen's life.

Limitations of study.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't really think much of the study that the Business Insider used to base its article on. It doesn't seem that entrepreneurs are any more susceptible to depression leading to suicide that are the rest of us, particularly men. I'll give the researchers credit for explaining the limitations of their study, though.

Limitations of the Data
The results reported herein are limited by reliance on self-report measures, vulnerability to
shared method variance, possible selection bias, comparison group characteristics, and study
design considerations. In light of these limitations, the current findings must be considered
highly preliminary.

Hey, just because the study is, in the words of the researchers who wrote it, "highly preliminary" doesn't mean Business Insider shouldn't write an article around it that takes its "highly preliminary" findings as set in stone.

Reliance on self-report measures: Perhaps the most important limitation of this study is the
reliance on self-report measures of personal and family mental health history, which may be
subjective, and will be limited by awareness of family concerns, understanding of psychiatric
terms, as well as willingness to describe potentially stigmatizing information [95, 96].
Accordingly, it will be critical for future research on this subject to include interview-based
diagnostic assessments.

Method: Research procedures were approved by the UC Berkeley institutional review board.
In this study, 242 entrepreneurs and 93 demographically matched comparison participants took
an anonymous on-line self-report survey to assess their engagement in entrepreneurship, and
their individual and family mental health history. Differences between the two groups, and the
first-degree relatives of asymptomatic members of both groups, were assessed for statistical
significance using chi-square tests and t-tests

I think I saw their questionnaire on SurveyMonkey one time...

"As someone who lives in San Francisco"

[Anonymous Coward]

There's your problem.

The sad part of our society.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a sad fact of our society that more money is equated with more "happiness" or well being.

When I don't have enough people time, I get depressed. And by people time, I mean close authentic relationships in person. Our society's demand that we work all the time is making us more miserable. Try to scale back? can't because employers demand more and more of our time. So it's the nose to the grindstone or unemployment. We can't have a balanced life anymore.

We as a society are consuming more booze and drugs and it's a symptom of our shallow all work and no play fill up the hole with stuff society.

Sermon over.

Re: The sad part of our society.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blah blah blah me me me whine whine whine. Shut the cakehole and back to work you lazy asshole, or I'll fire your butt so fast your haemorrhoids will catch fire and pop like crackers. I don't fucking care if you're depressed. Go home and set the house on fire, burn yourself and your worthless vermin family into cinders. I'll pass by to jack off on the smouldering ashes.

Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech.

[aussersterne]

This isn't just about startups, this is across U.S. society—there is zero work-life balance.

Sure, every other company proclaims how great they are WRT work-life balance, but it's pure bullshit.

During hiring (for employees) and/or funding (for startups), if you give any evidence that you will ever put anything before the company (family, health, whatever, it doesn't matter) in ANY way, or ever draw a line in the sand about hours/commitment at ANY number, you are totally noncompetitive/nonfundable (they won't use these words) and won't be hired/be funded. If there is any evidence in your CV, online persona, or history that you have ever done any of these things, you won't be hired/funded.

Even after employment/funding, you have to keep this up. Sure, you may be asked (or even pressed) to "slow down," but it's superficial. The moment you do, positive evaluations/promotions/funding dries up; there is a perception that you're "not serious," "not committed," "not a good risk," or simply "not as capable/investment-worthy" as those *other* supermen/women that work 100+ hours a week (at least) and always put work first.

Yes, they want you to take a break, take care of yourself, and balance your life. But hey, if someone else delivers more value or growth more quickly... Well, they'd be nuts not to go with them instead, and hope you stay healthy in the meantime, all the best.

So, in the interest of your self/family/relationships you try to build a career that precisely demands that in order to keep it, you destroy your self/family/relationships. Depression is easy to fall into when your life will fall apart no matter what you do.

Intelligence is part of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC because there IS a stigma once someone knows about my depression.

The search for knowledge has an unintended side effect. The loss of wonder. The loss of innocence. And for many the loss of hope. I see it everywhere I look. Urban professionals busy about their daily routine but never really happy. You can sense it if you look deep enough. I often long for the ability to wonder at the stars. Instead I'm compelled to explain the distance, mass, & composition of the stars to anyone else looking at them. I fully expect this post to get hammered by the know-it-alls but it won't make it any less true. If you're the type of person that enjoys telling children Santa, Easter Bunny, or Tooth Fairy aren't real you probably have some repressed depression.

Re:Intelligence is part of the problem

[sabbede]

My name is Matt, and I suffer from Major Depressive Disorder.

It sucks, but it's common enough that I don't feel stigmatized. Although it could just be that my Wellbutrin is doing the trick (so did Paxil, but the sexual side effects were intolerable. Ruined a relationship or two, which was depressing). That sense of being stigmatized could just be another way your depression is expressing itself.

Depression does seem to correlate with creativity though.

Re:Intelligence is part of the problem

[BVis]

That sense of being stigmatized could just be another way your depression is expressing itself.

Getting fired isn't your depression manifesting itself. Go ahead, tell me with a straight face that a majority of employers out there wouldn't fire your ass if they found out you were in treatment for depression. They may not even have a choice in the matter; their liability insurer could require it.

Re:Intelligence is part of the problem

[sabbede]

Well, it's been 0% of mine and I don't keep it a secret, so... Yes, I can say that with a straight face. Though a flash of disdain may briefly cross as I process the inanity.

Re:Intelligence is part of the problem

[BVis]

Getting fired for being in treatment is inane?

Re:Intelligence is part of the problem

[sabbede]

No, but suggesting that a majority of employers would do so certainly is. Even if it wouldn't expose them to costly lawsuits.

Because they found companies in their manic phase?

[Anonymous Coward]

And then they refuse to take their meds, because "it makes me less productive!"

Been there, done that, seen the resulting code tangle.

Possibly not only depression

[Anonymous Coward]

From my perspective, both personal and professional, the high achievers in tech and finance resemble bipolar spectrum disorder rather than simple unipolar depression. The highs are incredible, you can do anything, stay up all night, out-run the competition, think rings around your fellow workers, until you crash. Which can be weeks to months to years before the first real crash. At which point it becomes increasingly difficult to do anything until the next high. Eventually, the progression of the disease leads to darker and darker mindsets. Obviously not all high achievers are bipolar. But a lot sure look like it to someone who's been there.

Read "An Unquiet Mind" by Kay Redfield Jamison.

Fallacy

[Taco Cowboy]

Privilege white people committing suicide? I'm playing my smallest violin in sympathy

1. Not all startup founders are 'white people' and not all of them are 'privileged' either

2. Most of the startup founders do not commit suicide

3. Stress level for startup founders - no matter what kind of startup - is high, but this is natural, as the journey of starting up a new company (in any industry) is a rocky road filled with a mix of excitement / trepidation / frustration

As for the percentage of the excitement versus that of trepidation versus that of frustration largely depends on

A. The regional / global industrial environment in which the startup is involved with

B. The structure of the startup

C. The corporate culture of the startup, ie, the attitude of the close-knit of people working in the startup

D. The personality type of the founder himself or herself

I personally have involved in quite a number of startups and every single one has their own perculiar 'pain of labor' - and for each of the 'pain of labor', if the founder sees it as a 'challenge' it would be tackled with zeal. However, if the same 'pain of labor' is seen as 'trouble' then the thing could become a protracted problem for the company

The above is based on my own experience

YMMV

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[Bite The Pillow]

I have experience since 2002 with 4 different Fortune 150 or less businesses, and not once seen anything like this.

I *have* seen people saying "I'm too busy" and working exactly 40 hours, but you can't justify hiring more people when you are getting 90% of the work done in 40 hours. Maybe if you have more than 10 people to cover a single role, but even large companies tend towards smaller teams, perhaps with more managers than are necessary. So you generally don't have enough work to justify a new hire.

I also know people who worked at other Fortune 500 or less companies, at least 10 with enough detail to be sure that they have not seen anything like what you describe.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I do think you're in the wrong job market if you think this is bullshit.

Someone else delivers more value or growth, that's a problem with either your skill set or their desire to burn out. And I would not want to hire someone who looks like they will be a burnout in 5 years.

Go job hunting now, and get out of whatever network you are in, because you sound trapped by your own ignorance.

Oh now it's important?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about when these cockless motherfuckers fire people left right and center? No one cares about the depression of the unemployed or the homeless!

This only applies to...

[Anonymous Coward]

men who are startup founders.

Geez. I thought it was only me.

[tanstaaf1]

Commonsense would tell you than that the level of responsibility, risk, work-load and obsession assumed by a real entrepreneur would incline them to exhaustion, likely insomnia, and depression. But that's in retrospect. Initially there is the excitement and, when things seem to be accelerating, there can be a real buzz factor. But it sort of makes sense that the downside of the upside can be - and likely usually IS - as extreme as the buzz when things go well. In general, I think the average employee has approximately zero comprehension of the scope and sheer load and risk being borne by a typical entrepreneur under money and other pressures. And, of course, as "the leader" you can't exactly talk openly about the doubts, fears, and personal problems - many which can scarcely be articulated - going through your mind as you contemplate what happens if things don't turn out or if YOU, personally, don't find an answer to a particular challenge...while the clock ticks, the legal and presumed ethical responsibility goes higher, and the bank balance goes lower.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[udachny]

One has to do more than your average bear to build a business from the ground up, how is that a surprise in any way? If it were easy, everybody would be doing it and it wouldn't be discussed here right now. I started up my own businesses but always self funded / got a client for the product. To do that I put 10 years of savings and years of work on the line, that is not an easy thing to do. But if I were unwilling to do it myself, how could I ever expect somebody else to do it on my behalf?

It's because

[Anonymous Coward]

Your identity gets wrapped up in the success or failure of your business. The business is an extension of you.

Often times the success comes at the expense of your closest relationships so it's very much a situation with a high degree of emotional risk.

Bipolar - Manic Depression

[Norsys]

I have Bipolar and it really ruined my life. I'm alive, but what kind of life is it? I guess on the up side I'm better off than many people in third world countries.

30% of everyone

[Sigvatr]

I wouldn't be surprised if 30% of the general population is depressed.

"Success" is a defense mechanism

[Anonymous Coward]

As I depressed person, I identify the prevelance of depression amongst Silicon Valley entrepreneurs as something else: An instinct for survival.

I'm broken, and I know it. I've done a lot of work, and little else, and it has paid off.

I started, several times, to write a more elaborate account of that realization. But, I think I'll just leave it at that first line. Someone will understand and lot of people will not. And, being the Internet, someone whose ego tells them they're compassionate and good will say that another human being should be discarded because they have a bigger number attached to their name in a computer somewhere.

Depression subtypes

[foreverdisillusioned]

I disagree. Depression is not a monolithic thing, and while there can sometimes be clear-cut medical causes, other times there are rather clear-cut external causes. Perceptions of the outside world, in other words, affect brain chemistry. Money won't always give you the perceptions you need to be happy, but it's foolish and (I must say) slightly insulting to imply that it can't be a major factor, or even a primary factor.

I'm dealing with fairly severe dysphoric atypical depression at the moment (which is more common than typical depression. Which is typical of the hackneyed insanity that is modern psychiatry, but I digress) and while I'm sure there are a number of factors in my personality and my brain chemistry, I fucking promise you that it is nothing a large infusion of cash could not solve. My depression stems largely from my persistent inability to solve the problems around me (which of course becomes self-reenforcing as the bullshit piles up and the depression saps my energy), but 95% of those problems would be trivially solved if I could throw buckets of money at them. It would still take time and effort, but believe me I would be tremendously happy while heaving those buckets of money around and waiting. Indeed, during those periods in my life where it looked like my career was going places and I mistakenly believed I would soon have, if not bucketloads, then at least a reasonable amount of money, my depression was at an all time low.

Depression isn't monolithic in its causes or its effects. The DSM V doesn't even begin to scratch the surface, and it should be noted that psychiatry in general is tailored towards people who visit psychiatrists, i.e. people who at least have enough money to afford transportation and health insurance. That excludes me, and it excludes the majority of humanity who are living in the third world right now. So, instead of relying on the DSM or whatever pop psychology definition is trendy these days, let's consider how they define depression in animal models: giving up, not seeking out food, not trying to avoid an unpleasant stimulus... apparently because they have lost the will or belief that they can improve their situation. Translated to human terms in modern society, this positively screams "money." And anyone who disagrees has almost certainly never been poor.

Re:Depression subtypes

[RuffMasterD]

Being poor sucks, but being poor != depression. Depression doesn't discriminate based on wealth. Rich people have have problems too, just like the rest of us (family feuds, marriage problems, bills, poor health...). Having no job could lead to depression, but depression could just as likely make it hard to find or maintain a job. And you might find that having bucket loads of money doesn't solve all your problems the way you hope it will. It just pays off your old problems and buys you a new set of problems.

Re:Depression subtypes

[foreverdisillusioned]

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Again, I don't deny that some depression subtypes are not affected by money but it's pretty damn insulting to insist that a poor depressed person will simply find something else to be depressed about if they do get money. I don't want to get into too many specifics, but in no particular order these are a few of the things that most depress me at the moment:

-Inability to afford medical treatment for several physical medical conditions that myself, my wife and my son suffer (most of them not very serious, all of them annoying, all of them ultimately treatable)
-driving around in an extremely, extremely shitty car for hours on end without air conditioning in Florida during the summer. Anxiety over what will happen when said car eventually breaks down for good.
- living with my parents. Again. Not having enough space to store my stuff, not being able to find anything at all in chaotically packed boxes after several necessary spur of the moment moves. Not having a yard to enjoy or work in. Not having any privacy whatsoever. Having to listen to and deal with my parents' issues. etc.
-7+ years after I went back to school, realizing my net worth has dropped hugely with nothing to show for it and pretty much no long term career prospects
-realizing that my son is going to end up in some very shitty public schools in a couple years unless things magically get better
-trying to deal with friends and family in a society that demands significant expenditures of money (most notably eating out all the goddamn time) to be considered properly socializing
-inability to enjoy virtually any leisure activity because of the knowledge that I am in horribly dire straights financially and have no path out. This is worth highlighting--I could rattle off a list of a thousand things I could be doing right now that would have me interested and engaged and happy, except it would require tremendous effort (and possibly no small amount of booze) to be able to forget my current situation long enough to enjoy doing them for even an hour, and then I look up and remember where I am again and it all comes crashing down.

Re:Depression subtypes

[foreverdisillusioned]

Also, let me just highlight a few things here:

Rich people have have problems too, just like the rest of us: family feuds

If I was rich I could move the hell away from the family drama. Both my wife and I would love to do this. Problem (mostly) solved. I don't deny there could be some lingering stress, but when you're a few hundred miles away it would not be debilitating.

marriage problems

The number one issue of contention in most marriages is money. The number two issue is infidelity, which is entirely up to the personality and attitudes of the people involved--we're in an (nominally, at least) open marriage so that won't be an issue.

bills

If you're rich and worried about bills then you either suck at managing your money, you like living extravagantly/dangerously (not us. We were all set to buy a lovely little $50,000 fixer upper house on half an acre before I lost my last job), or you aren't really rich at all.

poor health

Granted, not everything is curable even with a ton of money. But a ton of money cures (or at least treats) a hell of a lot more than no money.

but depression could just as likely make it hard to find or maintain a job.

If you are rich you do not need a job, and/or you can afford to take your time finding the right job, and/or you can afford to take some time off from work for a while without the dread of the future pressing down on you and crushing every little moment of happiness you have during your break from the grind.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny. Around here people who don't seem to have life outside works are the ones you want to stay far away from. Eventually they will break, and because here the employer actually has to pay for sick leaves, and doctors WILL order a very long one when someone gets totally burned out. Employers are actively encouraging a healthy work/free time balance. Unpaid overtime is a thing you don't have to do. It's not expected, if you do too much of it you are most likely to end up with the boss asking you if everything is ok with your personal life? Maybe you should works less? Companies usually sponsor sports, theaters, movies, and all other activities they think will keep their employees mentally healthy.

My advice is to exercise

[Anonymous Coward]

I was having problems keeping myself motivated to work.
I dreaded stepping into the office every single day.
Talking to people would give me a short term boost, but then after a couple of weeks the dread returned.
So I started exercising. Cycling, swimming lifting weights, whatever.
That combined with setting small goals that I can achieve every single at work really turned things around for me.
But the exercise is crucial. If I don't exercise for a week or two I start feeling my motivation just slip away.

I'm not a doctor. Your mileage may vary.

It's 30% of everyone

[reve_etrange]

30% is just about the average in the Western world - nothing special about this particular group in this regard. It's a severely under appreciated problem when you consider the immense cost in DALY or YLD.

World Health Organization (WHO) states that depression is the leading cause of disability as measured by Years Lived with Disability (YLDs) and the fourth leading contributor to the global burden of disease.

You know what correlates strongly with depression?

[sabbede]

Stress. Could just be that 30% of people faced with high levels of stress react by sinking into depression. I know it happens to me.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[sabbede]

Wow, you sound depressed.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[BVis]

And I would not want to hire someone who looks like they will be a burnout in 5 years.

Of course you wouldn't. They obviously don't work hard enough. You want the folks that you can work into the ground in 6 months or so, then fire them for having human reactions to extreme overwork and burnout, and replace them with someone else who makes less money. Lather rinse repeat. Take a bath in all the money that you've made off of others' hard work and sacrifice. It's the American way.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[BVis]

Doctors telling employers that a worker is burned out and needs rest? Those employers actually listening? Employers required to pay sick leave? No mandatory unpaid overtime? Bosses giving a fuck about an employee's quality of life?

What are you, in ISIS? Here in 'murica you are your employer's bitch, and don't you forget it!

...MORE prevalent than assumed. Maybe...

[denzacar]

From TFA:

A recent study by Dr. Michael Freeman, a clinical professor at UCSF and an entrepreneur as well, was one of the first of its kind to link higher rates of mental health issues to entrepreneurship.

Of the 242 entrepreneurs surveyed, 49% reported having a mental-health condition. Depression was the No. 1 reported condition among them and was present in 30% of all entrepreneurs, followed by ADHD (29%) and anxiety problems (27%). That's a much higher percentage than the US population at large, where only about 7% identify as depressed.

More surprising was the incidence of mental health in the families of entrepreneurs: 72% said they either had mental-health problems themselves or in their immediate family.

A founder who has no history of mental illness from a family with no history either "is the exception, not the rule," Freeman said.

Also, from the study mentioned:
http://www.michaelafreemanmd.c...

Little is known about mental health conditions among the families of entrepreneurs. Of some relevance, though, is the fact that previous research has shown that first and second-degree family members of bipolar probands are high achievers across several domains that are important for entrepreneurship. Higier and her colleagues found that when compared to bipolar probands and normal controls, the unaffected identical twins of people with bipolar disorder demonstrate superior cognitive and interpersonal traits that would seem highly important for entrepreneurship, including enhanced social ease, confidence, assertiveness, intelligence, verbal learning, verbal fluency, extraversion, sociability, optimism, and resilience [89].

Coryell et al. found that the first-degree relatives of bipolar probands, including relatives with bipolar spectrum conditions, had significantly higher educational and occupational achievement than the close family members of people with other mental health conditions [72]. Other studies conducted over the last 100 years have reached similar conclusions [73, 74, 76, 90-92].
Creativity and innovativeness are foundational aptitudes of entrepreneurs. The close family members of bipolar probands have been shown to have high levels of creativity [23, 68]. First-degree relatives of people with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa, and autism have been shown to be overrepresented in the scientific and artistic occupations [66]. Male relatives of people with schizophrenia were shown to be overrepresented in a listing of prominent people [93].

Also, ALSO, from the study:

Reviewed in conjunction with the results displayed Figure 1, 72% of the entrepreneurs in this sample either reported a personal mental health history (49%) or were asymptomatic yet reported a family mental health history (23%). By contrast, 48% of the comparison participants in this sample reported a personal mental health history (32%) or were asymptomatic yet reported a family mental health history (16%).

There IS also a PRETTY BIG issue with it being a self-reporting study and with the composition and the design of the control group.

Control was created by surveying "76 MBA student and faculty pool participants, and 149 psychology students", then mixing those participants with self-reported "entrepreneurs".
Then, out of the total sum of 335 participants (meaning that 110 were actually pooled from "actual entrepreneurs") - 93 participants were declared as control because they answered "no" to the following question: "Have you ever been self-employed, a business founder, or a business co-founder (including non-profit businesses)?"

There are more psych and MBA students (132) among the "entrepreneurs" then "actual entrepreneurs" (110).
So all those mental health numbers may be coming from self-diagnosing psych students.
Which would kinda explain the fact that HALF OF THE CONTROL HAS A HISTORY OF MENTAL ISSUES AS WELL.

Re:Unhealthy society. Not just in business or tech

[Anonymous Coward]

So your experience with those 4 fortune 150s hasn't shown it, which doesn't rule out the tens of thousands of others. Sarcasm not intended: it's good there's at least 4 who honour such. That said, consider the following ad campaign Microsoft themselves ran:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/04/23/this-terrifying-microsoft-ad-suggests-youre-not-working-hard-enough-in-the-bathroom/

As someone who has worked for two separate fortune 500 companies (one being Microsoft) and several smaller companies (including start-ups) over the past 20 years, my experience matches what aussersterne said; it's to the point where I have to border being unprofessional by stating up front on my CV/resume that I require a proper work-life balance with semi-flexible work hours, and that offering me a larger salary or giving me raises doesn't increase my overall happiness or decrease stress levels (i.e. I will turn down a bonus/raise/whatever if it means less "expectations" of me at the company). Surprisingly, the past 2 companies I've worked for in the past 5 years, both start-ups, have respected that.

That's just my experience as one person, anecdotally anyway...

Tortured souls make the world go round

[frog_strat]

My theory: Sometimes early in life a person starts to experience anxiety, and this person is also gifted at analytical thought. The deeper they go into analytical thought, the more they escape the anxiety. "Geekness" becomes part of the person's identity. They become very skilled at some things. Some go on to create a company where work long hours, and not only abuse, but take pleasure in abusing those who work for them. Since our capitalist system rewards profit at any cost, these people are held up as heros, when overall they are a net cancer on society.

This is what I do now, too.

[aussersterne]

I state up front that I work on my own terms. I have talent to offer and can solve problems that others often can't, but I place a premium on flexibility and on my own health and family. I am incredibly productive, more than many other employees, but I do not offer *maximum productivity*, i.e. "as much as I am humanly able to produce." Even if it seems that I have more to offer (i.e. I leave at 6:30 when everyone else is still working and Skyping me at 11:30 pm, I travel a only couple of times per year and decline to travel 20 times per year, etc.), I am not willing to give this "more" to the organization—it is for my family and my own personal growth.

And both of the phrases I used are things I've been told—"We have doubts about your how serious you are; we're interested in someone that's more serious about their career" and "We don't doubt that you're highly skilled and productive, your resume and recommendations are stellar, but we're in a competitive industry and we need highly competitive people, and we're not sure you've got that competitive fire in your belly—that you're really going to be one hundred percent invested in the company and its growth."

I have two friends that have been on the serial startup carousel as founders. Both burned out and moved in other directions because they felt it was impossible to actually have a life, be a human being, and get growth and operating capital support from investors. Each startup became their entire lives each time until positive exit, and at some point each said, "I'm not doing this again, I'm losing my own sense of identity and my family."

And if you take that kind of statement out into the public sphere, I'd bet that what others would say is, "Well, they weren't really made to be enterpreneurs, then; they were destined to burn out because it's not the lifestyle for them."

Which is precisely my point—and it sounds like you've seen it, too—there's a prevailing "wisdom" that "real" career builders or "real" enterpreneurs are a particular "type"—the type that gives every . last . drop . of . blood to the company. The rest? They're just not "cut out for it"—they should "do something else."

Of course, if you're not "cut out" for the job market or for enterpreneurship, it's not quite clear what "else" you ought to be doing to earn a living. There are only so many jobs at nonprofits and in government agencies.

It would be better if society were to take a step back and assume the opposite—that everyone is basically loyal, driven, and productive, but in general, a healthy person cannot exist without healthy hours, life balance, and relationships, and if someone is the "type" to be working from 4:00 am until midnight every day of the week, and double that on holidays to pick up the slack, the are probably in need of counseling or personal development, rather than a raise and a promotion. But I suppose that's not how the market works.

Simple?

[Dripdry]

Our way of life, particularly in SV, simply does violence to human biology. Sitting around, thinking too much, worrying, business, meetings. Little or no mindfulness.

I recently got a smartphone, 3 weeks ago. I can already feel how different my attention is changing, feel an alienating disconnect and craving for attention and stimulation constantly.

Our culture is violent. So is our means of making a living (and I don't mean physical violence).

So much for failures don't matter

[lightbounce]

The Silicon Vally ethos is for entrepreneurs to "fail fast, and fail often". Your number of failures is supposed to be a badge of honor on the way to finally hitting it big.

But the truth is that entrepreneurs have to get personally involved in every startup or they will never succeed. It's no surprise that living on the edge like this takes its toll.