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Google's Driverless Cars Now Rolling In the Heart of Texas

MarkWhittington notes that, as reported by The Wall Street Journal, Google has started testing its self-driving cars in Austin. These driverless cars, loaded with the sensors, GPS transponders, and cameras, are now in service in "an area northeast and north of downtown Austin. The purpose of the test drives is to see if the car's software works in driving conditions outside of California and to develop a detailed map of Austin city streets. Each self-driving car has two human drivers ready to assume manual control if something goes wrong."

72 of 114 comments (clear)

  1. Question by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 4, Funny

    How many drivers does it take to drive a driverless car?

    1. Re: Question by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      More than it takes to drive a non-driverless car, apparently.

      One step forward, two steps back? Lol.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Question by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Just ask Schwarzenegger about Johnny Cab!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    3. Re:Question by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Are Texan Drivers worse than Californian Drivers?

      Disclaimer: I've not from the USA and I've only ever driven one time in San Jose.

      (apparently I shouldn't have driven through the neighborhood with boarded up windows...my bad, I was lost!)

      --
      No sig today...
    4. Re:Question by CreatureComfort · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You realize prototype and home built airplanes are flown from public airports all the time?

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    5. Re:Question by stabiesoft · · Score: 1

      In a word, yes. I have lived in both, and in austin I have seen people going the wrong way in the single lane under an overpass to change directions. I have no idea how they even got there. I have seen people in a 3 lane wide one way street make a left turn (in front of me) from the rightmost lane of the road. I was in the middle lane. I routinely watch people run red complete red lights, not pink, but steady red's. Staying within the lane of multi-lane roads also seems to challenge drivers in austin. I have seen numerous news stories of headon collisions because someone was going the wrong way on a freeway. It seems like drunk driving is a much bigger problem here, but can't confirm.

    6. Re:Question by CreatureComfort · · Score: 1

      Having driven extensively in both states, I'll say the drivers in Texas are more clueless and likely to do stupid things by mistake. The drivers in California aren't necessarily bad, but they are much more aggressive and more likely to do something stupid out of impatience.

      As always, YMMV on any particular drive in either state, this is just my general impression over several hundred thousand miles of driving.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    7. Re:Question by arth1 · · Score: 2

      Are Texan Drivers worse than Californian Drivers?

      Given that the most popular car in TX is the F-150, there are 85 mph speed limit zones, and that car dealers offer to throw in the (not "a") gun rack for free, what do you think?

      But anyhow, this isn't testing the car in Texas, it's testing it in one fairly well-regulated city, atypically designed to have as many broad streets, identical size city blocks and 90 degree corners as possible. It didn't evolve like most other cities, and present fewer challenges except for traffic density. Now Houston would have been a better challenge.

    8. Re:Question by tompaulco · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are Texan Drivers worse than Californian Drivers?

      I've seen people in Texas driving slow who will pull over to the side to allow faster traffic to go by. This sort of courtesy may just blow the autonomous cars' circuitry after dealing with California drivers.
      I expect that the human backup drivers are still from California, so it is unlikely they will be able to take over in that situation either.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    9. Re:Question by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      A better challenge would be pretty much any city in Europe.

    10. Re:Question by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      I don't get your argument. Perhaps you are letting your political view get in the way of rational thought.
      F-150 Pickup truck. How does that make bad drivers? They have a higher viewing angle and can see more of the road in-front of them.
      85 MPH speed limit. Long flat straight driving area. 85Mph isn't that crazy of a speed. Especially as I have seen New Englanders go 85mph on roads safe at 55mph.
      How does a gun rack create bad driving? A best I would say it may block your field of vision?

      Austin is also a rather liberal city in Texas.

      Or should you just go on I hate everything Texas because they voted republican. Do you really think your political vies are that much different or better?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:Question by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I should, perhaps, have said "public big city airports". You don't see many prototype aircraft at JFK.

      As for home built planes, they have to be approved before flying them. Not after the fact. A big difference.

    12. Re:Question by NotDrWho · · Score: 1

      How many drivers does it take to drive a driverless car?

      Well, normally it would take one. But this is Google we're talking about here. So with each driver, you have to factor in 20% personal interest leave, nap leave, cafeteria time, sympathetic maternity leave, mandatory Frisbee/unicycle breaks, etc. So you're probably talking 2-3 employees minimum.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    13. Re:Question by mlts · · Score: 1

      Austin != Texas. Here, the average car on the streets is not a F-150 (although it is everywhere else in TX), but a VW Jetta, a Mazda 3, Prius, or another compact/subcompact car. You will get the people with the Suburbans, now that gas has gone down in price, but those will be disappearing (and the people buying the Lexus RX SUVs) the minute oil goes over $100 a barrel.

      Austin really doesn't have broad streets. As another downside, the city council is in the middle of a project of re-striping most four lane streets to two, calling it a "quality of life enhancement". Of course, this means more streets wind up parking lots, but that is how the city plans it, as the eventual long term goal is to have most of the town car free in 10-20 years, so people can use the the wonderful, world-class Capital Metro mass transit system that is in place now.

    14. Re: Question by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      On mopac during rush hour? It takes none. You turn the car off, get out, lay in the median and try to wake up before 5pm so you can turn around and go home.

    15. Re:Question by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      Engine.dll
      ExhaustManagement.dll
      SteeringBrakes.dll
      IRRangeFinder.dll
      BackupCamera.dll
      CupHolder.dll

    16. Re:Question by edibobb · · Score: 1

      We do allow prototype airplanes on public airports.

    17. Re:Question by Megane · · Score: 1

      That normally only happens on rural roads with wide shoulders. It also only happens when another car wants to faster than you, more often because the car wants to go 10 over than because you want to go 10 under. So I don't think they're likely to be on the receiving side of this. More likely the driverless car would be the one in front with its bumper being ridden.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    18. Re:Question by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Of course we do.... where else are we going to launch and land large prototype and home-built airplanes?

      Your neighbor's backyard? Close down the nearest highway and use the road as a runway?

      Public airport beats the alternatives.

    19. Re:Question by mysidia · · Score: 2

      More likely the driverless car would be the one in front with its bumper being ridden.

      In other words, now the self-driving car needs to learn the customs and cultural driving quirks of the local population, otherwise Google's self-driving automaton is at the risk of being declared to be a jackass, for not pulling over for the cars on its bumper to pass.

    20. Re:Question by mysidia · · Score: 2
      2.0....

      AI-Module_FleeAccidentScene.dll
      AI-Module_GetawayCar.dll
      AI-Module_MobileProstitutionVan.dll
      AI-Module_RamRaiding.dll
      BulletProofGlass.dll
      HeavilyArmoredBody.dll
      InfraredJammer.dll
      HoodMountedLaser.dll
      BumperAttachedBatteringRam.dll
      DriverSideRocketLauncher.dll
      WindowTint.dll
      StuddedRunflatTires.dll
      PerformanceExhaust.dll
      OdometerSetback.dll
      ColdairIntake.dll
      MufflerDelete.dll
      RadarDetector.dll
      FakeLicensePlate.dll
      HiddenRearGunTurret.dll
      EMPGenerator.dll
      PoliceRadioJammer.dll
      SmugglingCompartment.dll
      DroneLaunchingPad.dll

    21. Re:Question by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      LOL... I didn't see those drivers coming!

    22. Re:Question by ncc74656 · · Score: 1

      The drivers in California aren't necessarily bad, but they are much more aggressive and more likely to do something stupid out of impatience.

      California drivers never heard of lane discipline. They think nothing of (as Denis Leary might put it) "driving really slow in the ultra-fast lane," or of passing the aforementioned assholes on the right.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    23. Re:Question by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      Prototype planes are registered as "experimental aircraft". That means that the authorities have looked at it and decided it's safe enough for a test pilot to fly it. Proper type approval comes later when the manufacturer has gathered enough evidence by (among other things) actually flying the plane.

      In the USA home built aircraft are also registered as experimental aircraft (despite not being truely "experimental" in most cases) and get much the same level of scrutiny. Other countries may have different rules on homebuilts.

      As for which airports it's going to depend on the type of plane. Big planes are going to be built and tested somewhere there is a big runway. Big runways are expensive and politically difficult to built so those facilities are likely to be built next to an existing one which may also form part of a fairly major airport. Airbus do their assembly and testing at tolouse international airporpot. Boeings main manufacturing facilities seem to be attatched to non-international but still reasonablly large airports. Smaller planes are obviously built and tested at smaller airports

      Much as the only way you really find out how a plane copes with flying and get the snags out of the design is to perform test flights the only way you really find out how well a self driving car (or a human driver for that matter) handles real road conditions and what situations it has trouble handling is to test it on real roads. Simulations and lab tests are important but they are not a substitute for real world testing. Having experianced humans arround during that real world testing to intervene is also a good idea (again for both human drivers and manchine drivers).

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    24. Re:Question by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      Actually, in MOST states, it is illegal to be driving in left lanes with cars behind you. As a law abiding car, it would likely move over like people should.

    25. Re:Question by antdude · · Score: 1

      Too many. And then you have uninstall and install to upgrade them. :P

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  2. What an idea by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    Wow, checking if something works outside of California. What an idea! I hope someone got promoted for that. Well, at least they didn't go too far, just Austin. Still, it's flyover territory for sure, better be careful and get all your shots before you go and check the State Department website for possible local travel warnings.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:What an idea by arth1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wow, checking if something works outside of California. What an idea!

      Wake me up when they test winter driving in upper New Hampshire.

    2. Re:What an idea by John_Sauter · · Score: 1

      Wake me up when they test winter driving in upper New Hampshire.

      Even summer driving in certain parts of New Hampshire can be a challenge. I would love to see two driverless cars pass each other on certain parts of the Mount Washington auto road.

    3. Re:What an idea by CreatureComfort · · Score: 1

      BINGO. That will be the trick. Although, supposedly, they have made great progress dealing with fog and heavy rain in the Oakland / SF Bay area, which I was skeptical about. Of course, guessing where the curbs and pavement markings are under the snow may need a lot more processing power.

      Google is still keeping things very quiet, but from the couple of presentations I've been to, it also still looks like the driverless cars need always on access to the cloud. In Oakland and Austin that's not necessarily a big deal, but I'd like to hear how the car does driving Oakland to San Diego or Austin to Houston.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    4. Re:What an idea by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Don't you watch TV.
      Every 80% of the American population live in California, 10% New York City, 3% Chicago, 2% everywhere else.
      There is a 1/3 chance that someone is an aspiring actor/actress/comedian. Those who do not live in the city are somehow poor/less civilized. And live in shabby brown homes.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:What an idea by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that will be an epic fail.

      It would be a hilarious test to watch. But an autonomous car in a bad winter snow storm? I don't see that working out very well.

      And then you have a car which is either only usable part of the year, or in certain places.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:What an idea by mysidia · · Score: 1

      it also still looks like the driverless cars need always on access to the cloud.

      That's no good..... the cloud isn't reliable enough.

      Suddenly, you have an outage: all the self-driving cars are stranded and can no longer move, and the world looks like a scene from One Second After.

      Hopefully they're planning on technology advancing to the point where all the processing power can actually fit in the car, before they would think of finalizing their product.

    7. Re:What an idea by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      I think the real challenge will be like situations the parent described. Mt. Washington would be a excellent test.

      I live in the Shenandoah valley. Its mountainous terrain and rural. We have alot of roads that are unmarked in terms of speed, have no center or edge lines, are rather narrow, and in most cases have either no shoulder or dirt or grass the county keeps mowed.

      In theory these are 55 zones. In practice people go much faster than that anywhere its flat and strait. The hills offer plenty of blind crests and corners, where you need to slow down to 25 and less, if you don't care to find your self rear-ending a combine. Passing some in the opposite direction is often nerve racking but humans can usually accomplish it by nods and judgments about how far not only you can go but what the other guys ability is as well. We also get our fair share of complicating conditions like dense fog many mornings, some snow in winter etc.

      I wonder how the algorithms cope with situations like road contours that look like a camels back? Where you can see for miles on the crests of the hills but face 10% grade, even if it only runs for a 100 meters, in the troughs. Most of us humans operate on faith and principles of object permanence. "The road was clear 1/8th of second ago when I was atop the last crest, It will therefor still be clear 3/8ths of second from now when reach the next peak, as there is nowhere anything substantial could have come from, I'll hold speed". What will Google's car do when its suddenly blind? Is the system able to continue to track and project the future location of objects it can't currently detect?

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
  3. I sugest they stay well clear... by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

    of the book repository.

    1. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by cygnwolf · · Score: 1

      Considering that the book depository that you're thinking of is about 200 miles away, and in Dallas, I think they're safe.....

      --
      Free Pie! The Pie is Also Evil!
    2. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      Considering that the book depository that you're thinking of is about 200 miles away, and in Dallas, I think they're safe.....

      Yes (I've been there, didn't get to look out the window). I was idly thinking more that Dallas has a history of hostility towards change (Kennedy was jeered, spat on, and abused when he first visited - by people in furs and suits) and is just up the road - and maybe that's part of the reasoning behind the the testing in Texas. i.e. if the reception isn't too hostile in Texas it maybe safe to test and deploy elsewhere.

      It was idle speculation that they'd drive north (the I-35?) and test the reception - cautiously. Probably roads are a big factor (though there are plenty of other states with similar roads). There could be plenty of other factors I haven't considered.

      It'd be interesting to hear what the Texan radio preachers (representing industry) have to say about it.

    3. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by Megane · · Score: 1

      I-35 (Texans don't use "the" with highway names) is particularly fun because it is almost always under construction somewhere. Currently the major construction is between Austin and Waco, and in northeast San Antonio. That is (was) some of the oldest sections (1960s era) still remaining, back when they thought curbs were a good idea on freeways. The Austin to Waco section has long been beyond its capacity, with construction making things worse.

      And there was a major incident a few months ago when an over-height semi truck went under a bridge and pulled out a concrete beam behind it. (The beam was for a new bridge that was still being built, so it wasn't tied in yet.)

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    4. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by cygnwolf · · Score: 1

      So far, all i've heard is here but you've got a point about Texas being resistant to change. Ironically, Austin (the people who live there, not the government) seems to be one of the more flexible parts of the state, that may be why they chose there first.

      --
      Free Pie! The Pie is Also Evil!
    5. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      So far, all i've heard is here but you've got a point about Texas being resistant to change. Ironically, Austin (the people who live there, not the government) seems to be one of the more flexible parts of the state, that may be why they chose there first.

      I don't want make it sound like Texas is the most resistant (or the most vehement in their resistance) of states - I can think of others (and I reside in Australia). East Texas is quite different from West Texas, landscape, weather, and the nature of people - but the differences in attitudes is not uniformly so. From an outsiders perspective people in Dallas (many that I meet weren't born there) don't seem much different from Austin - but the government sure is. Politics in Dallas doesn't seem to have changed much since the 50s - so I'd still be interested in hearing what the "popular" radio and television self-appointed spokespeople have to say about Google's self-driving car. Texas, especially Dallas seems to represent the oil industry - and what happens with cars and trucks if auto-driving vehicles become widespread shouldn't affect their bottom-line much (or just improve it if it reduces the cost of road transportation). But car driving is a very emotional (and historically short) tradition. Much more so than train driving, and the introduction of driver-free trains caused a bit of a storm when introduced in the 60s.(or earlier?)

      Reactions here in Australia are mostly "won't work" or "it'll mean doom to carriage industry and mass unemployment" (along with the predictable "it's just part of the conspiracy to invade your privacy by publishing street names". I could easily imagine the return of truck blockades if drive-less trucks looked to become a reality here.

      Interesting times we live in.

    6. Re:I sugest they stay well clear... by Demonoid-Penguin · · Score: 1

      I-35 (Texans don't use "the" with highway names)

      They sure do. Some drop "the" as part of the colloquial vernacular - but most anywhere in Texas I hear directions to drive "up the road/highway"

      Roadworks should make an interesting challenge for automated driving.

      And there was a major incident a few months ago when an over-height semi truck went under a bridge and pulled out a concrete beam behind it. (The beam was for a new bridge that was still being built, so it wasn't tied in yet.)

      We get similar stupid. Trucks jammed under the bridge height warning signs, people suffering head injuries by height warning signs in the on-ramps to multi-story parking because a passenger gets out and tries to swing the warning out of the way so an over height vehicle can enter. We also get stupid by design. There's a four-lane bridge near me that feeds onto a major intersection. Some genius decided that the best way to stop drivers switching lanes near the intersection was to build a low, narrow, concrete wall between them. You can't see it from your vehicle and it doesn't stop people from trying to swap lanes. It just blocks traffic whenever a car or truck tries and wins up stuck with an axle straddling the wall. Those stuck vehicles are a regular event (sigh).

      Back to driverless cars - I was amused to read that one of the "possible" benefits (according to a Texan journalist, who doesn't have a monopoly on dumb) is "Do you ever think that the seeing Austin’s bat colony on the Congress Bridge would be infinitely more fun if you didn’t have to also smell the bats? In theory, one day you could be able to drive by from the smell-sealed safety of your self-driving car.". I haven't looked to see where it's proposed that self-driving cars will carry their own air supply.

  4. Texas? by gtall · · Score: 3, Funny

    It shouldn't take long for some of the inhabitants to consider this to be the tip of the Obama Administration spear to take over Texas so they can remove their guns, impose environmental regulations, force money to be spent on education. And this right after the Jade Helm 15 exercises. They are probably Islamic driverless cars.

    1. Re:Texas? by Yosho · · Score: 1

      You know this is in Austin, right?

      It's more likely that they'll soon have the car running entirely on vegan fuel, maybe with a purple hair dye job.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    2. Re:Texas? by CreatureComfort · · Score: 1

      Nah. It doesn't say anything about pickup trucks, momma, dogs, or the rain.

      David Allen Coe

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    3. Re:Texas? by Yosho · · Score: 2

      I would imagine that, in the event of an emergency, it's programmed to come to a complete stop and call the authorities, then wait for user intervention.

      That's probably not an issue, though, because:
      1) Google's car already has multiple cameras recording everything that are much better than whatever you would have.
      2) The drivers in the car would take control in the event of an emergency, anyway.
      3) Google's car probably has individual components that are more expensive than your entire car, and there's no reason they wouldn't file an insurance claim to cover it (and do their best to ensure you're found at fault).
      4) The odds of a robotic car colliding with you are miniscule compared to a manned vehicle.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    4. Re:Texas? by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 1

      It shouldn't take long for some of the inhabitants to consider this to be the tip of the Obama Administration spear to take over Texas so they can remove their guns, impose environmental regulations, force money to be spent on education. And this right after the Jade Helm 15 exercises. They are probably Islamic driverless cars.

      Google? They're right on time: gathering intelligence for the upcoming JADE HELM 15 invasion.

      ...only 6 more days until Obama and the UN OWN Texas!

      // do I really need to add :-) ?

    5. Re:Texas? by tompaulco · · Score: 2

      You know this is in Austin, right?

      It's more likely that they'll soon have the car running entirely on vegan fuel, maybe with a purple hair dye job.

      Yes, people hear Texas and think guns and pickup trucks. But Austin is basically what it would be like if California was in Texas.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    6. Re:Texas? by Yosho · · Score: 4, Informative

      Over a year ago, Google's cars had already logged over 700k miles in California and Nevada with zero accidents where they were at fault: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/181508-googles-self-driving-car-passes-700000-accident-free-miles-can-now-avoid-cyclists-stop-for-trains

      That aside, there will be a handful of robotic cars on the roads as opposed to many thousands of manned cars. You're statistically unlikely to even see a robotic car, let alone get in a collision with one.

      --
      Karma: Terrifying (mostly affected by atrocities you've committed)
    7. Re:Texas? by AsmCoder8088 · · Score: 2

      I honestly don't know how it's coded to behave in such an incident

      if (victim.LicensePlate==DigiShaman)
      {
      perform_hit_and_run();
      }

    8. Re:Texas? by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Austin, that had already happened.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:Texas? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Based on his comments, he knows nothing about Texas other than the sterotypes that Hollywood pushes forward.

      You don't expect people like him to actually not believe everything they see on TV - other than Fox News, of course? I'm sure he has been warned (and even seen 15 second out-of-context clips to reienforce his belief) on the evils of Fox News.

    10. Re:Texas? by ksheff · · Score: 1

      That's in part due to all the California refugees that live in the Austin area.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
  5. Two drivers by fermion · · Score: 1

    To keep cars from being stolen, especially in couple months when the frat boys are back in town

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  6. Ah, but the real question: by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Are they dealerless as well as driverless?

    It would be ironic if they could be driven by a computer, but have to be sold by a human in Texas.

    --
    -Styopa
  7. This run at driverless cars will fail by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 5, Interesting

    OK here's the thing with this generation of driverless cars- their motion is governed by neural nets. I am going to assume that everyone here is familiar with this programming paradigm. If not, the Wikipedia entry on it is adequate.

    While in the end NN are just another form of Turning machine, currently no one can divine the algorithm of a trained neural net well enough to express it in IF THEN ELSE WHILE form.

    That means given a trained NN which is 100% correct 100% of the time , no could write an imperative or procedural (broadly speaking) program which captured the logic (IF THEN ELSE) the neural net is using (defacto using, NN don't have IF THEN ELSE logic except those implicitly embedded in their activation rules) to solve the problem.

    That means the algorithm the NN has arrived at is not open to analytical inspection and confirmation, except very indirectly.

    This is OK for wide variety of predictive tasks in which human life does not hang in the balance. In medicine, the diagnostic results from NN and even Good Old Fashioned AI expert systems are reality--checked by human doctors.

    Neural nets ALWAYS run the risk of coming to the right conclusion for the wrong reason enough of the time to fool humans into thinking it "understands" the problem domain in a way that is analogous to a human. A NN so trained will fool or lull human observers into a false sense of security until that BIG ACCIDENT happens then a post mortum reveals the shocking truth about what the NN was focusing in on to make it decisions.

    The Big Idea behind NN is that, through a combination of evolutionary forces and billions of iterations the NN will learn using the same Hebbian activation princples the brain appears (now) to use and that with enough training, the exceptional cases that I am describing will be found and rooted out.

    But even in nature, this doesn't happen reliably. Take for example the Australian Jewel Beetle. Over perhaps millions of years, it has of course evolved a robust way to recognize desirable mates and procreate. That is as basic an evolutionary task as you can imagine- it has to work or the species is doomed.

    However, the male's algorithm for mating is not as robust as you might imagine. It seems that what males rely on to select a mate is a very, very limited set of perceptual cues. As it turns out, it is looking for big glossy brown curved things. When it sights one, it alights and starts humping away.

    Well, Austrailian beer bottles fit this description *and fit it better than the female of the species*. People toss empty beer bottles in the outback and the result is the male beetles prefer the beer bottles to such a degree that the beetles were going to go extinct. Austrailia had to pass a law to change the appearance of its beer bottles.

    http://blogs.scientificamerica...

    This is a cautionary tale to those who think evolutionary forces produce only *robust* algorithms. What evolution actually produces is *good enough so far* algorithms. What well trained NN produce are similarly good enough algorithms. In both cases we have to do science to try to get at what it is they are relying on- what features they are *really* trained on. And we don't know there's a problem until tragedy happens and we don't know how ridiculous the problem is until we do science.

    This is different from procedural programming which, the Halting Problem notwithstanding, CAN be analytically examined for correctness. Procedural type programming plus sensors is what runs water stations, trains, planes etc. The military does use NN to try to recognize things but it has humans making the final decision and when the missle gets launched, it's not left to a NN to decide where to finally land.

    Moreover, self driving cars under the control of a NN can and will be attacked by the usual miz of 14 y/o kids, pranksters, criminals and terrorists

    1. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If Google are prepared to insure their own cars, then frankly I don't see any real obstacle to widespread adoption.

      The statistics so far suggest that the cars are already safe enough (better than humans), and will become safer.

    2. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hi, I'm a developer who works on intelligent vehicles.

      We don't use neural nets, for exactly the flaws you point out.

    3. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by jfengel · · Score: 1

      Thing is, the systems that are already on the road are also controlled by neural nets. Really crappy ones, with slow reaction times, a very limited sensor set (it has barely 110 degrees of vision), and is incredibly prone to impairing even those limited abilities. Yes, it's got a few advantages, with an almost preternaturally potent visual recognition system, but even so it's responsible for 10 million accidents per year, with tens of thousands of fatalities.

      Humans just aren't very good drivers. Automated systems will make mistakes, though the more of them there are on the road, the fewer they will make, because they'll be able to communicate with each other to reduce accidents still further. Total accidents will likely be reduced dramatically. People will throw red flags as soon as somebody manages to actually get injured by one (most likely in an urban setting, with a small child laying in the middle of the road and being mistaken for road trash), but if we get lucky and avoid that for just a little while, people will realize eventually that the total number of deaths is far, far fewer when you turn it over to machines that don't get drunk, fall asleep, or take most of a second to get information from their brains to the brake pedals.

    4. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

      Your point is good but I think it ignores the fact that we have an entire system of law built up to assign culpability to humans, in fact, that is mostly what the law is about- holding humans accountable "as if" they could be held accountable, as if their actions were not compelled , which I also think is in very many cases a fiction.

      So we have this body of law and historical precendent worked out in ultra-fine detail and a very very deep seated belief that people ARE responsible for their inattentiveness and mistaken judgement and you're going to throw all that away and where is it going to go? Nowhere? No one, no entity is responsible for that tragic crash of the bride and groom on their honeymoon?

      Because if Google is responsible, then Google is going broke. No individual company can bear the costs of being liable for all accidents, however infrequent. Now we solve this problem by distributing it to the drivers involved and, occassionally, the manufacturer.

      What you're proposing is a redistribution of liability to a single party or alternatively the absolution of liability. The second one is more in line with reality and morality, perhaps, if gross egligence on Google's part isn't uncovered. The fact is, each one of us has been inattentive enough to have taken the life of an innocent with our driving. It's just there was no one there at the time we were being inattentive. What separates the manslaughterer from the rest of us is nothing more than dumb luck. Nothing.

      But try telling that to politicians and vicitims families and see how much buy in you get. Liability WILL be assigned, the only question is to whom?

    5. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by Wargames · · Score: 1

      I took Sebastian Thrun's excellent class at Udacity concerning programming AI for self-driving cars. There were no neural networks involved. Basically, it is about using sensor data, known maps, and control of steering and velocity, to stay on the road while maintaining safe distances from other objects.

      --
      -- Each tock of the Planck clock is a new world and here we are still life. --
    6. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      We don't need to be 100% safe, safer than human drivers is enough.
      Plus, if there are indeed neural nets, they are not necessarily relied upon in life-or-death situation. In fact, they most likely aren't.
      For example, the prankster tricking the car into thinking the bridge abutment is a road may fool some advanced AI until another, much simpler piece of code tied to a proximity sensor triggers an emergency maneuver. Rough ride but you are safe.
      And, I wouldn't call these people pranksters. Murderers would be a more correct term, and thankfully, they are rare. The "push you on the tracks while the train is coming" prank may be an easy one but I don't see it performed very often...

    7. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by fulldecent · · Score: 1

      Cool, and what's the procedure you use to tell the difference between a plastic bag (which you can run over) and a small child (dead stop)?

      --

      -- I was raised on the command line, bitch

    8. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by bgarcia · · Score: 2

      The Slashdot moderation system needs a "Wrong" setting. None of the major developers are using neural nets to implement self-driving functionality.

      --
      I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.
    9. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by jfengel · · Score: 1

      As long as the total liability is decreased, then it's a solvable problem. We already have mandatory insurance in a lot of places. We could piggyback off that. It would involve some legislating and contracting and other paper-shuffling, but it doesn't seem impossible to just treat it as part of your insurance.

      Heck, the insurance companies might even offer you a discount for turning your car over to a superior mechanical driver.

      People may want to go after Google's deep pockets, and that's up to lawyers to figure out. I'm not a lawyer myself, so I can't really say how the ins-and-outs play out. For all I know, it may end up with Google assuming full responsibility, and you pay your insurance premiums to Google rather than your insurer. Google then turns it around to whatever reinsurer was really handling your insurance in the first place.

      The transition would, I'm sure, be ugly, just because this is a litigious society and the rules encourage people to sue. Not to mention two political parties whose first jobs will be "what side of this issue are we on, and how can we make sure that the other side doesn't get what they want?", blocking any legislation. But of all the tech companies in the world, Google seems the one with the most practice at lobbying for a change.

      Plenty of people will try to stop it, but there's also going to be at least some impetus to fix it, since it has the potential to save many lives and reduce traffic massively. (Automated cars can be much better coordinated and timed. Go watch humans try a zipper merge and you'll scream at all of them to get their incompetent hands off the wheels.)

      That all depends on it working, of course, and we're some years from that. So it's not too soon to start working on the political theory of the new system. But a new system shouldn't be impossible. (Note: I am being uncharacteristically optimistic. My usual response to political things is "it's going to fail because the system is designed for inaction". Try again tomorrow and I may well find it impossible.)

    10. Re:This run at driverless cars will fail by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I think it's a solvable problem.

      As long as the manufacturer has a sufficient income stream and a way of making sure that cars with known flaws are fixed there is no reason they couldn't cover the liability for all their cars and they of course have the option of taking out an insurance policy against that eventuality. The key will be ensuring that revenue stream. The nightmare situation for a manufacturer is being held responsible for a product they no longer make any income from or have any control over.

      For this reason I imagine when self-driving cars first hit the market it will be on an "all-in lease" basis where the manufacturer remains in control and can therefore respond effectively to dangerous flaws before they run up too much liability. I would expect sales of self-driving cars to require some legislative moves to define the extent of the manufacturer's liability.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
  8. Human shields by T.E.D. · · Score: 1

    Any bicyclist can tell you the bullying attitude they get from a certain percentage of pickup-truck drivers. Texas is practically the home of the jacked-up pickup.

    I guarantee you that if there weren't actual people in those google cars in Texas, they would be getting run off the road (and perhaps run over) with regularity.

  9. Boston by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 2

    You want to really give those cars a test? Boston. Or New York City, if you must. But Boston would be better. Lanes that disappear without warning, roads that are blocked, randomly, by "repairs", signs warning you of work zones (and double fines) which then turn out to be devoid of any workers (indeed, any sign whatsoever of work, except for a few orange plastic barrels), lack of any signs when you need them most...I could go on -- but I bet Google's cars couldn't!

    And then, Boston drivers...

    1. Re:Boston by antdude · · Score: 1

      You forgot Los Angeles (L.A.) for its #1 traffic!

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  10. don't need no steenkin' computers to drive Boston by Thud457 · · Score: 1

    The Japanese figured out all the algorithm you need to drive in Boston way back in the 60's.

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  11. Drunk pedestrians by TheSync · · Score: 1

    That is great news, the self-driving cars will now be able to test themselves against more drunk & rowdy pedestrians in Austin!

  12. Driverless* by clonehappy · · Score: 2

    *When the two humans driving the car feel safe enough to let the computer take over, which according to Google's own data is about half the time.

    So sick of hearing about this driverless car bullshit, when it isn't anywhere near that.

  13. snow (and manholes) by Mirar · · Score: 1

    So, test it in Alaska, in winter.

    And on a road with open manholes... :) Did they solve that yet?