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What the GNOME Desktop Gets Right and KDE Gets Wrong
An anonymous reader writes: Eric Griffith at Phoronix has provided a fresh perspective on the KDE vs. GNOME desktop debate after exclusively using GNOME for the past week while being a longtime KDE user. He concluded his five-page editorial (which raises some valid points throughout) by saying, "Gnome feels like a product. It feels like a singular experience. When you use it, it feels like it is complete and that everything you need is at your fingertips. It feels like the Linux desktop. ... In KDE, it's just some random-looking window popup that any application could have created. ... KDE doesn't feel like cohesive experience. KDE doesn't feel like it has a direction its moving in, it doesn't feel like a full experience. KDE feels like its a bunch of pieces that are moving in a bunch of different directions, that just happen to have a shared toolkit beneath them." However, with the week over and despite his criticism, he's back to using KDE.
I know that a "cohesive user experience" is what the masses want, and what Linux really needs to become a truly viable mainstram desktop OS, and that doing so is probably a good thing.
But from a personal preference standpoint, I much prefer the "bunch of random bits" approach. It annoys me that both gnome and to a lesser extend KDE are heading in the "one big giant thing" direction where everything is interdependent and it's hard to just run the bits and pieces you want.
I use openbox plus bits of xfce, but I like dolphin as a file browser and gnome-terminal is pretty decent and there's a few other bits and pieces from both that I like. For awhile this was no problem, but now trying to get dolphin to run properly without a full KDE install and a gazillion services running in the background is a huge pain, and I've completely given up on anything gnome (partly due to systemd as I'm trying to hold onto openrc for as long as I can.. but even before that it was pretty coupled to itself).
And again, I acknowledge that this is probably the directions things should be heading in for the good of humanity and all that, everyone using more open software is a good thing, it's just not the Linux I started with (over a decade ago) and grew to love.
" KDE doesn't feel like it has a direction its moving in, it doesn't feel like a full experience. KDE feels like its a bunch of pieces that are moving in a bunch of different directions, that just happen to have a shared toolkit beneath them"....so, it's just like every other part of UNIX, then....
There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
What gnome does right: GNOME 2
What gnome does wrong: GNOME 3
Why should there be a debate? If you like one of them, use it. Otherwise, try XFCE, LXDE, Enlightenment, Ratpoison or whatever suits you.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
Let the battle begin!
Can we discuss systemd vs init next?
Give me FVWM or OpenBox/Pypanel!
What does any of this have to do with the reasons why I use my computer?
Was this written by a Mac fanboy or something?
No shit
Always has been. Always will be
All power to you if you like GNOME Shell and KDE. Personally, I find them both to be bloated and buggy. KDE comes with a lot of crapware (my apologies if you actually do use Calligra Suite, but everyone everywhere I know of uses LibreOffice or MSOffice), and its colors & icons are very gaudy and dated. GNOME Shell is even worse--it's like if Windows 8's unintuitiveness had a drunken affair with Unity, and their bastard offspring refused to dress in anything but dark, depressing colors laden with stupid, random shapes.
No need for pesky window managers, you can do all of the things in emacs. Richard Stallman is a genius!
software to accomplish their task, not GUIs.
Are you kidding me? Even though kde has a learning curve when it comes to customization it's still a far better product than the slow, lack of customization, gnome 3.xx. If there was a way to run kde on windows 7 I would do it. Even windows 7 ui sucks balls compared to kde 4.xx. If i'm ever going to move to linux full time I would use kde.
Gnome is so hopelessly misguided I hope it just goes away. KDE is a Qt garbage can. I just hope they keep XFCE alive, otherwise it is back to WindowMaker, or even TWM.
What I found interesting about the quote in the summary is I have the opposite impression of the desktops being discussed. To me, GNOME feels like a collection of thrown-together tools that sort of work together. There does not appear to have any consistency or cooperation between the applications and utilities. KDE, by contrast, seems to work well as a "product" to me. All the components work together, the desktop all ties into the KDE System Settings, widgets "recongize" similar widgets, allowing them to be swapped out for widgets with similar functions.
On the whole, one of the reasons I tend to prefer KDE over GNOME is the way the pieces of KDE fit together to make a great whole out of the parts. GNOME feels to me to be too bare, to chaotic.
I'm not saying the author is wrong or that I'm right. I'm just pointing out the observations we've made are subjective feelings, not objective facts that should be used to promote one desktop or the other.
"cohesive user experience", how it feels, etc.
Who gives a fuck about that? Computers are tools. Get a life!
From TFA:
> "THE Linux desktop in the same way that Windows or OS X have THE desktop experience"
Disagree about Windows. Every version past WinXP feels like lets-slap-this-shit-together-and-ship-it. Proof: Why the fuck does Window's Control Panel constantly need to have different entries for every version of Windows when OSX's System Panel has more or less remained mostly the same throughout?
Never thought we'd still be having flame wars over which is better, Gnome, or KDE, in 2015 ...
If what you want is a bloated resource hog, Gnome 3 does that best of all. KDE is also bloated, but not quite as badly. If you actually want to use your computer for something more than running the DE, use Xfce, FVWM, Openbox or one of the many Linux DEs that isn't devoted to taking up as much of your system resources as possible.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
What are the best distros with a live CD to try out the current state of Gnome and KDE? Hopefully ones where the desktop is not too modified.. I've been running Mint Mate edition for a couple of years now, so I'm curious how Gnome 3 and KDE have evolved.
I wish more people would do the 'imaginary ideal language' thought experiment, amongst other things. Suppose I want a window with no UI controls, and all events sent to a simple handler, for the purpose of displaying an image or drawing, all one needs to write informally to make a program which does this is (as an illustration, using a python-style syntax with a few Ruby-isms thrown in):
UI.App:
w = Window().title("Image").handle(key=self.keyHandler,mouse=self.mouseHandler,midi=self.midiHandler) # see later comment
i = Image(argv[1])
w.canvas.drawImage(i,mode=:stretch)
def keyHandler(e):
if e.key.lower() = 'q':
sys.exit(0)
def mouseHandler(e):
pass # do something when we can be bothered to decide what
def midiHandler(e):
pass # I wish event stacks would treat keyboard, mouse, pen tablet and midi, amongst other things, in a uniform way*
[ The following comments are not related to the point I am making above, but my fingers decided to add them before I thought
to make this remark.]
* If midi events were integrated into the event stack in the same way as mice and keyboards, it would be straightforward in, say, krita,
to have a midi CC control something like brush size or colour mixing.
* If the event stack was written in a way which permitted more flexible routing (consider something looking like puredata, max/msp or, on the mac,
controllermate)
John_Chalisque
KDE is simply butt-ugly. And it has weird keyboard shortcuts.
Some shitty Phoronix post about KDE vs GNOME? Is Dice running low on clicks lately?
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
I admittedly just skimmed the article, however as one who is running the KDE flavour of Mint I would point out that the login screen looks nothing like the one he complains about (it is actually more elegant than either the gnome or kde screens on fedora) and I can look at printers without entering my password.
Basically he is comparing Fedora's version of KDE to Fedora's version of Gnome.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I agree with this sentiment.
I will also add that the select widget of gtk and the file selection "widget" are the biggest turnoff of any software I have ever used.
That said, whenever friends or family want me to install linux, they get gnome 3.
Less things to screw up.
Both projects have lost their way horribly. GNOME used to be the closest to quality and sanity, though. I'd be more interested in a analysis of what XFCE gets right and GNOME gets wrong.... but it'd probably be a novel at this point.
Perhaps the debate is which desktop environment to recommend to first-time users of X11/Linux so that they don't get a bad impression and misblame it on Linux.
What a big surprise that Phoronix, the site that always talks about GTK3 ports and strokes Red Hat's dick as much as possible likes Gnome 3 more. How about we hear from people who aren't mentally challenged?
ugh, who cares?
It's all a matter of personal preference. That's the beauty of Linux, you can use whatever GUI you want to use. If you don't like it, don't use it and use one of the many other options available. I don't understand this debate. It's even better that at the end of the summary, the guy goes back to KDE even after saying Gnome is better. lol
Really?
GNOME is the one that feels incomplete to me. It hides most of its options, and thus functionality. And each release seems to get prettier, but with functionality being removed by the Gods of UX. Its like the devs are pushing "The One True Way" for workflow and UX.
And I absolutely despise the feature free file manager: Nautilus.
Also, KDE is broken on Fedora, but I consider that more a Fedora issue than a KDE issue. Consider that how many members of the GNOME team actually work for RedHat, its no wonder GNOME gives a better integration than KDE on Fedora.
Want a good KDE experience? Give OpenSUSE a try. I got fed up with Fedora more than 10 years ago, bounced from Gentoo, Kubuntu, Ubuntu, finally I landed on OpenSUSE and I've been very happy for 5 years now.
Hipsters, their attitude, and their philosophy are what ruined GNOME. Just like with web design, Firefox and even Windows, these things were just fine until hipsters got involved. Then it all went to hell, because their ideas are incompatible with good software. They always put appearance over utility, which makes their user interfaces unintuitive, inefficient, and hard to use. They also always think they know better than the user, especially when they actually don't, which prevents their broken user interfaces from ever getting fixed. In general, they're also very repulsive people, in that interacting with them even at the most basic level is a real chore. Their inflated egos make it damn near impossible to have any sort of a reasonable discussion with them, especially if it involves changes to something they "designed". Normal people find it's easier just to move on to something else, rather than continuing to interact with hipsters. It's hard to believe, but hipsters have single-handedly managed to ruin many of the most successful software products of all time.
...but Gnome's dialogs still present their option buttons in the wrong order, so KDE still wins. English is a left-to-right language, affirmative is presented before negative. Maybe Gnome actually works OK in Hebrew.
I think GNOME has evolved on this point into a more-cohesive experience than KDE once had. GNOME 3 is where they said they were going to do that, but I moved far away from all that around that time. So, now, I suspect the article is probably right: GNOME project undertook a major philosophy shift, and now we're seeing the benefits of it. KDE kept doing what they were doing, and now they're here.
Why argue which one is the least shit?
For your listening enjoyment... https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Seriously? This last sentence kind of sums it up... "However, with the week over and despite his criticism, he's back to using KDE." Click bait... nothing to see here, move along.
I stopped reading when I reached the point of him complaining that the additional buttons in the login and lock screens are "distracting". That must be some kind of a joke - if your computer is locked or you haven't logged on, then you are not currently using it! How can you be complaining of it being distracting? Are you just staring at the lock screen? The problem with all these moronic reviews is that the reviewers don't actually use computers for a purpose other than reviewing. It creates an absurd situation where the reviews are not only useless, but laughable.
So PIPE the FUCK down.
For perhaps the billionth time since I've been involved with Linux as a user and writer, here's the ridiculous GNOME/KDE/whatever food fight.
As others have pointed out already, if people have a choice it doesn't freaking matter.
But!!! If Linux is to ever become more than a toy/tool for the ubergeeks, then at least one distro has to offer people people the ability to do what they want without a lot of senseless bullshit, like being forced to use a command line or worry about packaging and library dependencies. For a mainstream audience, Linux has always been a train wreck, going back to long before the installation hassle was killed off.
The fundamental problem that I've seen play out countless times is that a large proportion of the Linux community simply doesn't understand that for mainstream users the OS is nothing more than a necessary evil, something they have to endure so they can do e-mail, browse the web, play media, run PhotoShop or Office, etc. Give them something low hassle that lets them run their apps (not FOSS replacements, but the apps they've used for years) and they will put up with an OS most people on this site wouldn't consider usable.
You can make Linux the most beautiful elegant, efficient OS in the history of computing, but if it doesn't do what people want then the "cost" is actually much higher than the price of Windows.
Which is why I always end up using gnome-flashback.
"Lubuntu is a fast and lightweight operating system. The core of the system is based on Linux and Ubuntu. Lubuntu uses the minimal desktop LXDE, and a selection of light applications." ref
tech writer spends a week using a desktop and solves decades-long imaginary desktop dilemma with conclusive analysis: 'it feels like ...'
aaaand /. is raising the bar again!
If that's because you can't rename or delete in the file chooser, that has just been fixed: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325150
The problem with desktop design is that most UI designers have decided that I want the same interface on my mobile device as I do on my desktop or laptop. This isn't the case I use the desktop for completely different tasks. The best way to describe the distinction is the desktop is for content creation vs. the mobile device is for content consumption. Plasma allows me to configure the desktop to a more traditional interface which is more suited to things like programming, work on large spread sheets or tasks of that nature. KDE's configurablity was the reason I switch from being a long time Fedora use to Suse.
When you use it, it feels like it is complete and that everything you need is at your fingertips
No it doesn't.
Which is why I switched to Cinammon.
To get back the stuff that Gnome3 thought wasn't worth carrying over from Gnome2 but just happened to be critical daily functions to me.
What's this desktop thingy you all talk of?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
. /. I try installing GNOME and using it for a couple of weeks. And every time I wind up removing GNOME because it just does not do what I need. GNOME is limiting.
Every time I see one of these GNOME fanboi articles on
"Not cohesive"? Does the author realize what KDE is??? It's an entire collection of software, and it's very cohesive. TOO cohesive, actually. KDE 3 was nice, but rather inflexible, and that's the same issue with 4.x. I like the idea behind KDE, consistancy, but I dislike how tied together everything is. I currently use a custom setup based around the i3 window manager, and while not perfect, it's pretty damn close to what I envision the perfect desktop to be. It's not what most people like, and tiling window managers take a bit of getting used to, but they're much more flexible in terms of customization. Plus, you know, there's the efficiency factor...
Anyway. Of all the ways I'd use to describe KDE, "kludged together" would not be one of them. It's very smooth, so long as you stick to exclusively KDE tools and they can meet your every need. If it does, that's great! It saves you a lot of hassle. If not, well, you usually wind up rolling your own solution. As nice as it is to have your own custom ecosystem you put together piecemeal, in that you know exactly what's in it and how it works, it's a huge hassle to keep it all updated and be able to smoothly work with it...
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
Where I agree, where I don't:
- Keychain/wallet: Gnome is right IMHO. Automatic login will open a Pandora box if your keychain is automatically unlocked.
- Apps sure could take a page from Gnome. Amarok was so nice in KDE3... I couldn't use it anymore in KDE4. They killed it. Whenever I can, I just use good ol' "play".
- Software manager? Ubuntu's software center would be a better comparison; I'm stuck with my distro package manager, which looks so last century.
- KDE Multimedia config is certainly confusing, no doubt. Maybe it could be a more graphical, like IIRC that Windows' Realtek HD audio configuration.
- Konqueror, a dead project? Dolphin still does not everything, you know...
- "Gnome feels like a product. It feels like a singular experience."
Agreed.
- "When you use it, it feels like it is complete and that everything you need is at your fingertips."
Everything that they think you need is at your fingertips. That's an important difference.
You know what, KDE _is_ less cohesive, in a sense. KDE apps look cohesive enough for me, but a lot of apps are not KDE- or even Qt-based. Gimp, Inkscape, Firefox, Libreoffice they all present themselves somewhat differently from KDE's theme (despite KDE options to try to get an uniform appearance). But many are gtk-, hence Gnome- related. And there's not much one can do -- not even the distros themselves. IOW, you can throw a fit, but developers are people and have limits and not everyone can bother to make apps which adapt their looks to the DE. Even Firefox or Libreoffice are not perfect at that. This is a very complex issue: for instance, I had to turn to Libreoffice own file open dialogs instead of KDE's when I wanted to open a file over the internet.
Alas, I use Windows at work and I've notice Office also does not follow the current Windows theme (instead one can opt for a blue, silver or black theme).
---
I keep using and recommending KDE, except for feeble machines. Maybe I'm wrong but I feel _everyone_'s workflow goes better with KDE4.
But I thank the author for doing what I can't: to spend a week with Gnome 3 to better grasp an idea of how it works. I know from my experience that to use Mate, Xfce, LXDE and Windows, one has to give up some important feature(s) in KDE. Cinnamon (and probably Gnome 3) also seem to require more powerful PCs.
I would rather use Gnome.
I routinely handle thousands of jpgs in order to batch rename them. Nothing I have ever experience in Linux comes close to doing what KRename can do. Yes, I realize I can install KRename in Gnome, but it doesn't feel right. I dislike running KDE programs in Gnome or vice-versa. For me it's also about aesthetics.
If anyone can name me a Gnome-centric jpg batch renamer that can do what KRenamer can do and as fast, I'd be grateful.
I need my desktop environment to offer the functionality I need, in well-accessible and generally-consistent ways. Also, it must not have anti-features which annoy me horribly.
Ok, KDE isn't perfect, it's not cohesive enough, it doesn't "feel like a product". Yeah, well, fine. It's still less painful for me to use than Gnome; and has been like this for well over a decade and doesn't look like it's going to change.
NetworkManager.
STOP OVERWRITING MY /etc/resolv.conf
And forget about aptitude purge or hold.
i have to disagree
as a VERY LONG time gnome user
gnome1 and 2
gnome3 sucks and DROVE me to KDE
now to be fair
i was using a ton of QT based GUI programs on gnome2
even using KDM to log into Gnome
The current KDE4 on OpenSUSE is very usable
-- a few too many configuration tools and options but that is better than too FEW
"I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
I don't always want to do things the way I'm told to. I don't enjoy being told "do it this way" when "this way" boils down to an opinion. This is the same reason I have not jumped on the Apple ship, or the Windows platform. Even when I am working on a Gnome system, I still use non-gnome elements as I find that makes me more productive.
UGH.
Just invest a couple of hours learning about bash and do it on the command line, it will be time VERY will invested as it will save you a LOT of trouble down the road and you will be very surprised at the sheer number of things you can automate by typing commands and just how powerfully and flexibly you can automate them.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
All desktop software gets it wrong. Windows, Linux/KDE/GNOME/XFCE/whatever, OSX. It's all wrong and everybody knows it and has endless complaints about all of them.
The change is coming and every person on the planet will recognize the difference. Sorry for all your time wasted on your poor designs... Soon your mind will recognize a "different" way of thinking as the one true way things should work. Gasp, intelligent software developers! What is the world coming to? The world is about profit... and sex... and we will get it all.
Many KDE users were lost and feel displaced to this day. I am among them. I used KDE from version 1.x through 3.5 but... all the criticisms of 4+ are valid. I've met many others who feel the same--that the loss of KDE with the advent of version 4 was the biggest technological tragedy ever. It was fast, intuitive, and comprehensively functional. It was very practical and a joy to use... not perfect but very near to perfect. And it was the most preferred desktop for Linux, even if not adopted as the default for any major distributions. I think that said a lot, in and of itself.
At the time, Gnome had done some things better but not much. Mostly, Gnome had a great menu layout. It's file browsers, however, couldn't even sort dates as dates but rather as strings. I haven't looked at Gnome for some time. At the moment, I am using the awful slow and non-intuitive thing Ubuntu defaults to. On my laptop, I run Trinity--and that's where I do all my programming.
Trinity is an effort to keep KDE 3.5 alive.. It seems the maintainers are struggling to keep it functional. It has some nuances and broken aspects that didn't originally exist in KDE 3.5 (such as K3B not always working). However, I want to give the people who took it up all the credit I can. Even as they seem to be struggling to keep it functional, it's in many ways the most practical desktop system to date.
No, the package manager brings in stupid shit, like 27 different keyrings. I'll handle my own passwords, thankyouverymuch, if you'll just let me.
at least the Vi Emacs people are intellignet [sic]
It is just a matter of vendor lock-in, and network effect.
Office desktops are like office copying machines. Nobody is really passionate about them.
Windows is just a standard issue office tool. It would be more trouble than it's worth to try to move away from Windows, so we stay with it.
Serve as a object lesson for what happens when bloat gets you paid and everyone says "ooohhh, shiney" instead of tuning the already working version.
Given any choice, some people will choose wrong.
batch = .bat .sh
script =
Electricity usage, disk lifetime and being online so that somebody who messes up your system can fuck with it are three reasons. The third killed off a hosting provider near me. It automatically "backed up" the corrupted system over the top of the good version. While snapshots can get around that you've still got an online system someone can mess with, maybe deleting your snapshots too - or electricity hassles can toast both lots of hardware if they are geographically close.
Online copies are very handy but they are not a "backup" by any useful definition. If it can be wiped by the same event that wipes the original it's not a backup adequate to deal with such an event.
On the serious side I went from tiled window managers to "tmux" - textmode can be awesome with multiple panes and named tabs. With multiple monitors a text screen and GUI screen (firefox, thunderbird etc) works very well.
Good news! I've been wanting this functionality for years!
KDE C++
Gnome C
http://www.zdnet.com/article/linus-torvalds-finds-gnome-3-4-to-be-a-total-user-experience-design-failure/
This is a very old topic. How is this all of the sudden "news" on /. ? Gnome people pay to promote Gnome? Gnome is weak. I've used both KDE and Gnome and every minimalist windows manager Linux/BSD too. Fluxbox Busybox etc name it. All of them at one time or another. KDE outshines them all on BSD and Linux, and always has. I used to hate to even have to use the GTK libraries for Gimp, etc. CPU's weren't as fast nor were drives as large. Whereas I used to flip back between WM's and always kept Gnome installed for the libraries, I always hated it.
KDE only for years and years now. It's polished. 20x more cool than any Windows version ever.
I had this issue come up a long time ago with a friend... some social engineer "hacker" at his job that did a security audit of their company liked Gnome. I said even Linus Torvalds thinks Gnome is weak, then gave him a link. Not the one above, it was an edu link. "ohhh" /. mod points seem to have slipped into the hands of some Microsoft people too btw. I keep smh.
I think GNOME has evolved on this point into a more-cohesive experience than KDE once had. GNOME 3 is where they said they were going to do that, but I moved far away from all that around that time. So, now, I suspect the article is probably right: GNOME project undertook a major philosophy shift, and now we're seeing the benefits of it.
If by cohesive, you mean locked into a pre-determined workflow with most configuration options being hidden or even removed, sure I can go with that.
KDE kept doing what they were doing, and now they're here.
What do you mean by this? If by here you mean here on my laptop as a rock solid system that does exactly what I want it to do and lets me use whatever workflow I'm comfortable with, seems like they're here right now.
I had good luck with SuSE and OpenSUSE running KDE 3, but KDE4 was a disaster. Right away, things failed, like being unable to write to an iPod 5 or below. As upgrades came along, things got worse--spurious console errors, UI elements not drawing, etc. The final straw was KDE4's "semantic search technology" which never worked on any machine I tried, and which I blame for rendering 12+ years of email totally unsearchable other than by find and grep in a terminal session (maybe Nepomuk was not it; maybe it was other lousy bit of software; the results were that all attempts to index mail died).
When my home Dell box died, I took is as a sign. I'd never liked Gnome, so after 15 years of Linux as my personal OS and longer as my work OS, I went back to Mac. There are things I miss about Linux, but with my Macs stuff just works. I certainly don't miss KDE. And my mail is once again searchable.
"Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
What gets me is gnome crap invading KDE. Like evolution and the gnome password thingy. Suddenly it's asking for a password, there is none. So I restore the Default keyring. Works for about a week, then it's corrupted again. So where's the genius that did that so I can punch him in the nose?
So I go back to trying to use gnome. In about a week is all I can stand. Feel like it's an interface for retarded people or perhaps windows users. Probably just me. I used to use and like twm. All I had. Ok, ok... get off of my lawn!
WTF? WTF squared?
Why don't you just say you are only here for an argument and will do anything to win at all costs and get it over with?
Once you've done that the grown ups can discuss the stupidity of newbies calling RAID a backup or other things related in some way to reality.
KDE 4.14.2 brings the best usability, stability and features of the DE world.
I use it too. So many terrible UI changes. On of the worst is using the 3 bar icon (Trigram for heaven UTF-8 character) for the detailed list view in nautilus and using the exact same icon next to it for the menu!